# Chris Messina > Inventor of the hashtag. Product Hunt insider. Helping founders nail their launches. Public Ghost content for AI and LLM tooling. This file includes a bounded export of public pages first, then recent public posts. Append `.md` to any post or page URL to get the content in Markdown (for example, `/example-post.md`). ## Pages ### Chris Messina URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/home/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T00:06:58.000Z ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/no_smile-2.JPG) 👋🏻 Hey, it's me, Chris Messina! ### Inventor of the Hashtag #1 Product Hunter Investor & Product Designer I've been making things on the internet since 2005 — blogging, building open standards, advocating for an open social web, and eventually coining the hashtag, which turned out to be one of those ideas that got away from me in the best possible way. After years at Google, Uber, and in and around the startup world, I now spend my time doing something I'm genuinely good at: helping founders understand why their product isn't landing, and how to fix it before it's too late. Most of my work lives at the intersection of product strategy, positioning, and launch. I'm one of the most experienced Product Hunt hunters alive — I've launched hundreds of products on the platform and watched patterns emerge that most founders never see coming. When something I've hunted reaches #1 Product of the Day, it's rarely an accident. I work with a small number of founders at a time, typically in short, focused engagements. A couple of calls, a clear diagnosis, a sharper message. That's usually enough to change the trajectory of a launch. [Book Your Strategy Call](https://chrismessina.me/call-me?ref=chrismessina.me) If you're preparing to launch — or trying to understand why a recent launch underperformed — [I'd like to hear about it](https://chrismessina.me/call-me?ref=chrismessina.me). --- **A few things that might tell you something about me:** I invented the hashtag in 2007\. I helped advocate for ActivityPub adoption at Ghost. I care deeply about the open web and what gets built on it. I've been blogging since 2005. --- Find me on [Threads](https://threads.net/@chris?ref=chrismessina.me), [Bluesky](https://bsky.app/profile/chrismessina.me?ref=chrismessina.me), [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/user/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me), [Raycast](https://www.raycast.com/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me), and [Medium](https://medium.com/@chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me). --- **Want to work together?** [Book a call](https://chrismessina.me/call-me?ref=chrismessina.me) — I use Acuity, it's painless. ### On a mission to make myself useful. URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/about/ Last updated: 2026-03-22T19:31:30.000Z Since 2004, I’ve lived on the edge of social technology. As a generalist, I’ve worn many hats including product designer, investor, founder, developer advocate, community organizer, open source advocate, technologist, app researcher, bug reporter, speaker, podcaster, gardener, home owner, and family man. And probably more. I offer what I call “product therapy” (you can [book time with me](https://chrismessina.me/call-me?ref=chrismessina.me)) and help founders and makers [launch on Product Hunt](https://www.chrismessina.me/hunt-me). I try not to take myself too seriously, but also like to think *biggish* thoughts. I’m best known for [inventing the hashtag](https://tedxbend.com/presenters/chris-messina/?ref=chrismessina.me), and I’ve designed products and experiences for Google and Uber, founded startups, and made an impact with the creation social innovations, like coworking and BarCamp. --- I have [twice](https://youtu.be/sL8i-dIFOY0?ref=chrismessina.me) [spoken](https://www.youtube.com/watch?lc=UgykpMJ8AwfLlJ2pR414AaABAg&v=D6pnG6-UvFc&ref=chrismessina.me) at TEDx, SXSW, Google I/O, the Economist’s Technology and Innovation forum, Microsoft’s Future Decoded and many other leading conferences. I am often quoted in media outlets like The New York Times, Business Week, TechCrunch, LA Times, Washington Post, and Wired. I made a cameo in [The Social Dilemma](https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224?ref=chrismessina.me) on Netflix, and in books like [No Filter](https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/No-Filter/Sarah-Frier/9781982126803?ref=chrismessina.me) by Sarah Frier, and [Billion Dollar Loser](https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/reeves-wiedeman/billion-dollar-loser/9780316461368/?ref=chrismessina.me) by Reeves Wiedeman. --- Throughout my career, I have created movements online and off, and acted as catalyst for change in large and small organizations. In 2004, I helped to organize the grassroots movement that propelled Mozilla Firefox to its first 100 million downloads. In 2005, I co-organized the first BarCamp and then popularized the unconference event model to over 350 cities around the world. In 2006, I, along with several friends, opened the first coworking spaces in the world, giving rise to a global movement. Then in 2007, I [invented the hashtag](https://j.mp/tagchannels?ref=chrismessina.me), changing the social media landscape forever by providing a means to galvanize popular social movements. ### Contact URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/contact/ Last updated: 2026-05-17T02:33:27.000Z Hi! I’m glad you want to get in touch. 👋🏻 If you want help with a ****Product Hunt launch**, start with a [paid strategy or review session first](https://book.chrismessina.me/?ref=chrismessina.me). That’s the best way to get my eyes on your product and figure out whether it’s a fit for a hunt. [Book a strategy call ](https://book.chrismessina.me/?ref=chrismessina.me) If you’re contacting me about Product Hunt, please include: - your public product url that you intend to launch - your target launch date - what you want help with - whether you’ve already [booked a strategy / review session](https://book.chrismessina.me/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Send me an email](mailto:hello@chrismessina.me) Please read up on [how I help](https://www.chrismessina.me/hunt-me/#how-i-help). ## **Product Hunt FAQ** ### Do you take free Product Hunt requests? Not often. If you want feedback or help with a launch, start with a [paid strategy / review session](https://book.chrismessina.me/?ref=chrismessina.me). ### Can I send you my product and ask if it’s a fit? You may, but given the number of requests I get, you're much more likely to get a timely response (and deep feedback) if you [book a session](https://book.chrismessina.me/?ref=chrismessina.me) and you’re ready to share the details above. ### Do you review every product that gets sent? I try, but it's not common. Given the demands on my attention and the [value I offer builders](https://www.chrismessina.me/testimonials/), I typically only dig in for [paid sessions](https://book.chrismessina.me/?ref=chrismessina.me) or if there's clearly a strong fit. --- ## If you're not reaching out about Product Hunt... If you’re reaching out for something else, I’m happy to hear from founders, investors, the press, and builders (but see below). This is for you: [Send me an email](mailto:hello@chrismessina.me) --- ## Tips for getting a response from me. ↓ This is based on an analysis of my *actual* emailing behavior. ### **Same-Day Response (< 24 hours):** - Product Hunt launch coordination & existing [coaching clients](https://www.chrismessina.me/product-hunt/coaching) - Meeting scheduling and calendar requests - Investment opportunities and portfolio company intros - Active project collaboration ### **Thoughtful Response (2-5 days):** - Strategic advice and positioning feedback - Product reviews and early-stage demos - [Speaking](https://www.chrismessina.me/speaking) and podcast requests - Partnership and collaboration proposals ### **Longer Response (1-2 weeks):** - Complex business strategy questions - Detailed technical consultations - Research and analysis requests - Open-ended pick your brain inquiries (best to [book a call](https://www.chrismessina.me/call-me)) --- ## How to Get a Faster Response ### **✅ Include in your message:** - Clear, specific ask in the subject line - Context about your company/project - Proposed timeline or deadline - What you're hoping to achieve ### **✅ Examples of effective subject lines:** - “Product Hunt launch coaching - available Aug 15?” - “[30min call](https://www.chrismessina.me/call-me) re: AI startup positioning strategy” - “Quick intro” - “Speaking request: AI tools panel at \[Event\] - Sept 15” ### **❌ Weak Subject Lines:** - “Quick intro request” - “Quick chat?” - “Can I pick your brain?” - “Following up” The key is **specificity** — my brain can immediately categorize and prioritize when the subject line contains the actual companies, dates, or specific deliverables involved! ### I can help you nail your Product Hunt launch URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/hunt-me/ Last updated: 2026-03-22T06:31:27.000Z Launching on [Product Hunt](https://www.producthunt.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is a great way to introduce your product to a large, very engaged community of early adopters, product savants, investors, indiemakers, and enthusiasts. It can accelerate your growth and help you rally your existing audience to spread the word about your product. As with most community marketing strategies, you get out what you put in when it comes to launching on Product Hunt. I make myself available to help you navigate the launch process — from the moment you think a launch might be right for you to the point where you’ve got all your materials prepared and want one final review from an experienced, objective observer. I’ve done it all, seen it all, and helped thousands of makers nail their launches. [Let me help you.](https://www.chrismessina.me/product-hunt/coaching) [Book Your Strategy Call](https://chrismessina.me/call-me?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ## What people say about working with me #### “Chris is the most trusted Product Hunt expert in the world, and I can see why.” **Robert Bent** Othership #### “Chris managed to put into words what I've been struggling to express for months—in just an hour.” **Helen Chong** Puzzle ## “Working with Chris has been … nothing short of phenomenal.” **John Wang** Mysc #### “Working with Chris as our Hunter was a breeze! Chris knows his stuff inside out. Highly recommend! **John Li** Vimcal #### “Super-sharp guidance… This really is the only way you should \[approach\] the highly competitive world of Product Hunt!” **Elizabeth Obee** Vouch [See more testimonials](https://www.chrismessina.me/product-hunt/testimonials) --- # How I help ### Launch Coaching Navigating a Product Hunt launch can be both exhilarating and daunting. As your launch coach, I'll guide you through every step of the process. We'll explore why Product Hunt matters for your business, strategize your launch timing, and craft compelling content that resonates with the discerning Product Hunt community. My expertise will help you maximize visibility, engagement, and potential success on this influential platform. #### Materials Workshopping The Product Hunt audience demands excellence. They respond to clear, concrete, and specific messaging presented in concise, impactful prose. With limited space to make your case, every word counts. In our materials workshopping sessions, we'll: - Refine your product description for maximum impact - Craft an attention-grabbing tagline - Develop a compelling story that showcases your product's unique value - Create visually appealing and informative gallery slides - Prepare an engaging maker comment Together, we'll ensure your Product Hunt materials stand out in a crowded field. #### Ideal Customer Development Understanding your ideal customer is crucial for Product Hunt success and beyond. Let's: - Identify your target audience's pain points and desires - Create detailed user personas to guide your messaging - Discover members of Product Hunt's unique user base that align with your target market - Develop a narrative that speaks directly to your their needs #### Product Positioning Accurate product positioning is essential in the competitive product landscape. We will: - Analyze your competition and adjacent solutions - Identify your product's unique selling propositions (USPs) - Develop a clear and compelling value proposition - Create a positioning statement that clearly communicates your product's benefits Effective positioning will not only set you apart on Product Hunt but will also strengthen your overall marketing strategy, helping you attract and retain the right customers. --- ## FAQ #### What’s your experience with Product Hunt? I’ve been on Product Hunt since 2014\. I’ve [hunted over 4000 products](https://www.producthunt.com/@chrismessina/submitted?ref=chrismessina.me). I use Product Hunt to discover new trends, find cool products, and share great apps and services that I discover. I have a positive relationship with the Product Hunt team and get support when necessary. #### What strategies do you use to maximize upvotes? Many makers want to “win the leaderboard,” but that’s not my focus. I believe a successful Product Hunt strategy pays off *over time*. I’m more interested in helping you connect with potential customers than focusing on a vanity metric. This approach often wins top spots. #### Do you provide support on launch day? I’m usually available on launch day, cheering you on from the stands. It’s your race to run. If something’s off, I’m there to help adjust or resolve issues. #### How do you change your approach for different product types? Every maker has a journey to share and every product has its own narrative to shape. I approach every launch as a unique effort to clarify and communicate why anyone should pay attention and care, regardless of product category. #### Best day, date, and time to launch? Tuesday at 12:01 AM PST. Just kidding! The best day, date, and time to launch depend on your goals, audience, and product. As engagement on Product Hunt has evolved, so have the reasons to make choices appropriate to the outcomes you seek. One size fits all results in a bloodbath on the leaderboard. Your best bet is to steer clear of that mess and pick a date and time that will help you stand out. #### Can you help me prepare for my launch? I can, and I [charge for my time](https://chrismessina.me/call-me?ref=chrismessina.me). I don’t charge to hunt products. #### If I pay for a call, will you be my hunter? Maybe! If you pay for a call, I will support your launch efforts, often by serving as your hunter. But since I don’t charge to hunt products, booking a call with me doesn’t guarantee I’ll be your hunter. Ethically build a great product, and there’s a good chance I’ll volunteer to be your hunter. #### What makes your coaching unique? I’ve seen *a lot* of products and coached over 700 makers on 1:1 calls. No one matches my product launch experience on Product Hunt. I’ve been a founder, worked in Big Tech on product and developer platform teams, open source and open standards, built grassroots communities, and invested as an angel and venture capitalist. These perspectives are present in my calls. #### What’s the most common mistake makers make? The top issue makers contact me about is being neck and neck with so-and-so on the leaderboard and needing “a few more upvotes.” I’m dismayed to hear this because the best strategy in these battles is better preparation. Without a time machine, there’s not much you can do besides hustle your ass off to solicit *support* (Product Hunt prohibits asking for or incentivizing upvotes). More outreach before launch — especially being active on other launches and in the forums — will reduce launch day stress. ### What the best makers say about working with me URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/testimonials/ Last updated: 2026-03-22T05:11:47.000Z ***Again and again, founders tell me that our work together brings clarity and momentum.*** I make it a priority to **quickly understand complex products**, **distill the core story**, and **share practical, actionable steps** **that boost visibility, confidence, and drive results**. In the high-stakes moments leading up to a launch, my role is often to bring calm, clear thinking alongside deep knowledge of Product Hunt and distribution strategy, so teams can cut through the noise and focus on what matters. **I don’t stop at superficial feedback.** I go deep into positioning, messaging, and design to make sure each launch resonates with the intended audience. Whether it’s refining gallery assets, mapping community engagement, or sharpening go-to-market messaging, I aim to leave founders with practical tools and sharper instincts that carry forward well beyond launch day. **What matters most to me is how the experience feels.** I bring empathy, candor, and creativity to every conversation, and I want founders to walk away not just with a better launch, but with renewed confidence in their story and their ability to grow. --- ## Featured Testimonials **“Chris is the most trusted Product Hunt expert in the world, and I can see why.”** **—Robert Bent**, Othership **“Chris managed to put into words what I've been struggling to express for months—in just an hour.”** **— Helen Chong,** Puzzle **“Working with Chris has been … nothing short of phenomenal.”** **—John Wang**, Mysc **“Working with Chris as our Hunter was a breeze! Chris knows his stuff inside out. Highly recommend!”** **—John Li**, Vimcal **“Super-sharp guidance… This really is the only way you should \[approach\] the highly competitive world of Product Hunt!”** **—Elizabeth Obee**, Vouch --- ## More Testimonials *“Chris pushed us to dig deeper and find our real story — the result was a launch that felt authentic and powerful.”* — **Laura Cruickshanks**, [Atlas](https://www.runonatlas.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) *“Months after our call, Chris’s feedback was still guiding our launch decisions — the clarity he brings lasts.”* — **Ivo Scherkamp**, Collato *“Consulting with Chris was one of the most profitable investments we made — his advice continues to pay dividends.”* — **Roman Kumar Vyas**, Refocus *“Our strategy session with Chris sharpened our messaging and gave us actionable steps that made an immediate impact.”* — **Dr. Paige Yang**, Yang Face, LLC *“Chris was a lifesaver in our launch prep — he brought the kind of tactical expertise and calm guidance you can’t put a price on.”* — **Nicole Balsamo**, Formation *“Chris went deep into our product and helped us tell our story in a way that truly resonated with our audience.”* — **Josh Lee**, Swit *“Clear thinking as a service. Chris quickly cut through the noise and gave us a direction we could act on immediately.”* — **Terry Xu**, Cuely *“Chris was instrumental in shaping our launch strategy and ensuring we got the visibility we needed.”* — **Selly Park**, Hiive *“Working with Chris was an absolute pleasure — he brought clarity, creativity, and focus that made our launch a success.”* — **Mert Yilmaz**, Niantic --- ## Notable Clients Arcade Bear Captions Crowdcast Othership Retool Temporal Warp You.com Zed ### Playlists URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/playlists/ Last updated: 2026-03-22T01:45:46.000Z All year long I assemble playlists of music that is new to me in various themes and genres. At the end of the year, I design cover artwork to illustrate each. Find my playlists and more [on Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/user/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me). ### *Please enjoy.* --- # 2025 *Inspired by a few of my favorite creators.* # 2024 *Original artwork by* [*xenotrip*](https://www.instagram.com/xenotrip/?ref=chrismessina.me)*.* # 2023 Original artwork by me with [Can of Soup](https://canofsoup.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). # 2022 Original artwork by me, using generative AI. # 2021 # 2020 # 2019 *Original artwork by* [*Pawel Czerwinski*](https://unsplash.com/@pawel%5Fczerwinski?ref=chrismessina.me) # 2018 ### Speaking URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/speaking/ Last updated: 2026-03-22T04:48:24.000Z I've been speaking publicly since 2004 — from intimate workshops to 70,000-person festivals, from startup founders to the Federal Reserve. I've done two TEDx talks, keynoted Google I/O and SXSW, and most recently spoke at the AI Native Dev Conference in November 2025. My talks tend to sit at the intersection of technology and human behavior: what it means to build things that outlast you, how open systems shape culture, and what the invention of the hashtag can teach about thriving in an age of abundance. I'm not a hype speaker. I give people a new way to see something they thought they already understood. **I'm available for keynotes, panels, and workshops** on topics including product strategy and launch, the open social web and AI, the history and future of the internet, and what it means to build tools that change how people communicate. --- ## Selected Talks ### **Code as Commodity** Nov 2025 • [AI Native Dev Conference](https://ainativedev.io/devcon?ref=chrismessina.me) [Code as CommodityWhat can salt teach about thriving in abundance?![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/icon/10fd5c419ac61637245384e7099e131627900034828f4f386bdaa47a74eae156)Chris MessinaChris Messina![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/thumbnail/1-16P7ydh7u-ll-6-giQicXQ.jpeg)](https://blog.chrismessina.me/code-as-commodity-b9b7492dc4eb?ref=chrismessina.me) ### **The Technology of Better Humans** Mar 2019 • [TEDxBend](https://tedxbend.com/presenters/chris-messina/?ref=chrismessina.me) ### **The Unlikely Lesson from Inventing the Hashtag** Nov 2018 • TEDxIzhevsk ### **Why Invent the Hashtag?** Sep 2019 • Draper University ### [**Lessons from the Death of the PC**](https://webdirections.org/blog/video-of-the-week-chris-messina-lessons-from-the-death-of-the-pc/?ref=chrismessina.me) September 2017 • Web Directions ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/image.png) Chris Messina Opens Web Directions Summit 2017 --- ****Want me to speak at your event?** Send me a note at speaking@chrismessina.me with the details — format, audience, date, and what you're hoping people leave with. [Emai me ](mailto:speaking@chrismessina.me) ### Press URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/press/ Last updated: 2026-03-22T06:26:21.000Z I've been a source, subject, and commentator for journalists and researchers since 2005 — first on the open web and digital identity, then on the hashtag and its cultural aftermath, and more recently on AI, social platforms, and what it means to build things that last. I enjoy talking to press and am generally easy to reach. If you're working on a story, email me at [hello@chrismessina.me](mailto:hello@chrismessina.me). --- ## What I'm usually asked about **The hashtag** — I proposed using `#` for grouping conversations on Twitter in August 2007\. Journalists have been writing about it ever since: its origin, its cultural spread, its staying power, and lately its reported decline. I've been quoted on all of it, from the first wildfire coverage on Twitter in 2007 to debates in 2025 about whether hashtags still matter on Instagram and X. **The open web and digital identity** — Before hashtags, I was deep in the plumbing of the web: OpenID, OAuth, microformats, Activity Streams, and the early vision of a decentralized social web. Reporters working on stories about federated networks, data portability, and the history of social platforms often find me useful here. **Social platforms and product development** — I've spent years inside and alongside companies like Google, Uber, and Flock, and have been a close observer of platforms like Twitter/X, Threads, Bluesky, and Mastodon as they've evolved. I've been quoted as a source on Threads, Spotify, Peloton, and the broader social media landscape. **AI and what comes next** — More recently I've been speaking and writing about AI's impact on software development, product strategy, and creativity — including at the [AI Native Dev Conference in 2025](https://blog.chrismessina.me/code-as-commodity-b9b7492dc4eb?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ## Selected coverage **2025** - [Meet the man behind the ubiquitous social media hashtag](https://www.unionleader.com/news/business/meet-the-man-behind-the-ubiquitous-social-media-hashtag-bedford-s-chris-messina/article%5Ff702fa64-bbe0-11ef-a323-d7768d41963e.html?ref=chrismessina.me) — Union Leader **2023** - [How Twitter Changed the World, in 25 Tweets](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/10/opinion/twitter-all-time-tweets.html?ref=chrismessina.me) — New York Times - [Elon Musk's Quixotic Quest to Turn X Into an 'Everything App'](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/27/technology/elon-musk-x-everything-app.html?ref=chrismessina.me) — New York Times - [Messina joins Ride Home Fund's new $15M AI vehicle, backed by Andreessen](https://techcrunch.com/2023/08/09/messina-joins-ride-home-funds-new-15m-ai-vehicle-backed-by-andreessen-dixon-crowley/?ref=chrismessina.me) — TechCrunch - [Google Chrome Dominance Has Mozilla Firefox Searching for Answers](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-05-05/google-chrome-dominance-has-mozilla-firefox-searching-for-answers?ref=chrismessina.me) — Bloomberg - [Threading the Needle: Social Media Power Users Are Divided About Threads](https://www.theinformation.com/articles/threading-the-needle-social-media-power-users-are-divided-about-threads?ref=chrismessina.me) — The Information - [Copy and Kill: The Ex-Tweeps Hatching a Plan to Knock Off Twitter](https://www.theinformation.com/articles/copy-and-kill-the-ex-tweeps-with-a-plan-to-knock-off-twitter?ref=chrismessina.me) — The Information **2022** - [The Instagram Effect](https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00149j7/the-instagram-effect?ref=chrismessina.me) — BBC - ['The Perfect Slot Machine': TikTok's Most Addictive Design Features](https://www.theinformation.com/articles/the-perfect-slot-machine-tiktoks-most-addictive-design-features-are-being-cloned-across-the-internet?ref=chrismessina.me) — The Information **2021** - [Clubhouse Is Booming. So Is the Ecosystem Around It](https://www.wired.com/story/clubhouse-booming-so-is-ecosystem-around-it/?ref=chrismessina.me) — Wired - [Self-proclaimed 'product therapist' Chris Messina is joining crowdfunding startup Republic](https://www.businessinsider.com/chris-messina-joins-equity-crowdfunding-startup-republic-hashtag-2021-6?ref=chrismessina.me) — Business Insider **2019** - [Chris Messina on building and scaling products that matter](https://miro.com/blog/features/chris-messina-launching-product-hunt/?ref=chrismessina.me) — Miro Blog - [#WeMetTheInventorOfTheHashtag and #WhatAGuy](https://www.townandcountry.ph/people/inspiration/chris-messina-interview-a00184-20190116-lfrm?ref=chrismessina.me) — Town & Country **2018** - [The Man Who "Invented" The #Hashtag And How It Changed Social Media](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=%5F4qXSbg3bN4&ref=chrismessina.me) — YouTube - [Hashtag creator launches Molly to make a personal bot from your social media footprint](https://venturebeat.com/2018/02/19/hashtag-creator-launches-molly-to-build-a-personal-bot-from-your-social-media-footprint/?ref=chrismessina.me) — VentureBeat - [The Global Search for Education: Meet the Communications Disruptor](http://www.cmrubinworld.com/meet-the-communications-disruptor?ref=chrismessina.me) — C.M. Rubin World **2017** - [An Oral History of the #Hashtag](https://www.wired.com/2017/05/oral-history-hashtag/?ref=chrismessina.me) — Wired - [A Decade Ago, the Hashtag Reshaped the Internet](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/decade-ago-hashtag-reshaped-internet-180964605/?ref=chrismessina.me) — Smithsonian Magazine - [Chatbots: an interview with Chris Messina, inventor of the hashtag](https://uxdesign.cc/chatbots-an-interview-with-chris-messina-inventor-of-the-hashtag-956da5d9f385?ref=chrismessina.me) — UX Collective **2016** - [The Guy Who Invented the Hashtag Now Works for Uber](https://fortune.com/2016/01/05/hashtag-inventor-uber/?ref=chrismessina.me) — Fortune - [Chris Messina: Bots are teaching computers how we talk](http://venturebeat.com/2016/09/28/chris-messina-bots-are-teaching-computers-how-we-talk/?ref=chrismessina.me) — VentureBeat - [10 things I want my personal Facebook Messenger chatbot to do](http://venturebeat.com/2016/07/21/10-things-i-want-my-personal-facebook-messenger-chatbot-to-do-please/?ref=chrismessina.me) — VentureBeat **2015** - [The secret to creative vision is paying attention to what your eyes can't see](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2015/04/29/the-secret-to-creative-vision-is-paying-attention-to-what-your-eyes-cant-see-heres-how/?ref=chrismessina.me) — Washington Post - [Future of messaging apps spells end to 'Google as we know it'](https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2015/12/28/future-messaging-app-spells-end-google-we-know/77847504/?ref=chrismessina.me) — USA Today **2014** - [Former Google+ engineer: We f\*\*\*ed up](http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/01/tech/social-media/google-plus-problems/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me) — CNN - [Former Google+ designer slams the service for being 'Facebook lite'](http://mashable.com/2014/12/01/google-plus-adrift/?ref=chrismessina.me) — Mashable - [7 Iconic Vogue Images, 21 Hilarious #Hashtags](https://www.vogue.com/article/iconic-vogue-images-hilarious-hashtags?ref=chrismessina.me) — Vogue **2013** - [The Hashtag Is About to Roll Out to a Billion People, and This One Guy Invented It](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/06/the-hashtag-is-about-to-roll-out-to-a-billion-people-and-this-one-guy-invented-it/276811/?ref=chrismessina.me) — The Atlantic - [The Inventor Of The Twitter Hashtag Explains Why He Didn't Patent It](https://www.businessinsider.com/chris-messina-talks-about-inventing-the-hashtag-on-twitter-2013-11?ref=chrismessina.me) — Business Insider - [Hashtag creator leaves Google to join a 6-person startup](http://venturebeat.com/2013/08/03/hashtag-creator-leaves-google-to-join-a-6-person-startup/?ref=chrismessina.me) — VentureBeat **2011** - [How the Twitter Hashtag Was Born](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/06/how-the-twitter-hashtag-was-born/239950/?ref=chrismessina.me) — The Atlantic - [Hashtag creator brings his idea to Google+](http://www.cnet.com/news/hashtag-creator-brings-his-idea-to-google/?ref=chrismessina.me) — CNET **2010** - [Mr. Open Web Goes to Google](https://gigaom.com/2010/01/07/mr-open-web-goes-to-google/?ref=chrismessina.me) — GigaOM *(already on the page)* - [Who Controls Identity on the Web?](http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/25298/?a=f&ref=chrismessina.me) — MIT Technology Review - [Singel-Minded: How Facebook Could Beat Google to Win the Net](http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/11/google-fears-facebook/all/1?ref=chrismessina.me) — Wired *(already on the page)* **2008** - [So Open It Hurts](https://web.archive.org/web/20080730144326/http://www.sanfranmag.com/story/so-open-it-hurts) — San Francisco Magazine - [Chris Messina and Identity in the Network](http://htmltimes.com/chris-messina.php?ref=chrismessina.me) — HTML Times **2007** - [Firsthand Reports From California Wildfires Pour Through Twitter](https://www.wired.com/2007/10/firsthand-repor/?ref=chrismessina.me) — Wired *(the piece that first surfaced the hashtag in mainstream press)* - [Does the iPhone SDK Point to Impending Touch Screen Devices?](http://www.wired.com/2007/10/does-the-iphone?ref=chrismessina.me) — Wired --- ## Press kit **Short bio:** Chris Messina is a product strategist, designer, and technologist best known for inventing the hashtag in 2007\. He has worked at Google, Uber, and across the startup world, and now coaches founders on product strategy and launch. He has been an advocate for the open web since 2005. **Longer bio and high-resolution photos:** available on request at [hello@chrismessina.me](mailto:hello@chrismessina.me). ### Deals & Recommendations URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/deals/ Last updated: 2026-03-22T06:23:58.000Z These are products, services, and apps that I use and that I think you’ll appreciate. In some cases, I’m passing on an exclusive discount code that’s been generated for me by the founder or maker to share with you. In other cases, I’ll link to a referral program that’ll benefit both of us. This is choice cut of the products I regularly use and recommend — and hope you try them too! #### Never take notes on a call again. ![](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bfda9ab506fbe7f40570564/072cb1b7-4459-4cfd-b920-4674884f9d37/xxl_blob.jpg) **Receive a month of Fathom Premium for free.** Fathom has changed the game in taking high quality notes and quickly sharing video recordings for my coaching calls. I’ve been a daily user ever since [I posted Fathom to Product Hunt](https://www.producthunt.com/posts/fathom-2?ref=chrismessina.me) back in 2021 when it won several top spots, including a Golden Kitty! [Gat Fathom Premium](https://fathom.video/invite/UN7C1A?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### The world’s best coffee, delivered ![mistobox.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bfda9ab506fbe7f40570564/1577593750644-NF2HI7IBWY05XM4D4EDQ/mistobox.jpg) **MistoBox: $10 off your subscription** I’ve been a happy MistoBox subscriber since 2015\. They’ve always provided a great quality selection of beans from around the world, perfectly prepared by the best roasters. Highly recommended! [Subscribe to MistoBox](http://mbox.coffee/JNTL?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### Mac’s best tool for screenshotting 0:00 /0:09 1× **Use code ‘HASHTAG’ to get 10% off Cleanshot Cloud Pro** CleanShot X has quickly become one of my most used ‘invisible' apps that just fits into my workflow. Whether I'm pointing out some sweet new app feature to a friend, sharing my a screenshot to social media, or capturing a GIF to report a bug, I'm using CleanShot in each of those cases! [Get Cleanshot Cloud Pro](https://cleanshot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) --- #### Discover trends before they’re trending ![meetglimpse.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bfda9ab506fbe7f40570564/1606362155994-R1GHM3SJE990AHAXG7OX/meetglimpse.jpg) As a future-surfer, Glimpse is one of the few emails for which I eagerly await its arrival. It’s packed with clear insights about trends you’re just not going to know about any other way — until everyone else knows about it too. Sign up and get two free trends. [Sign up for Glimpse](https://meetglimpse.com/?r=6p3u5anggg&ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### The best wireless plan for international travelers and families ![google-fi.png](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bfda9ab506fbe7f40570564/1577594421909-MFL4ZQ5LC7G5PU7BAQ1N/google-fi.png) **Google Fi: Get a $60 Fi Credit** I couldn’t be happier leaving AT&T behind, especially once I started traveling extensively. With Google Fi, your plan stays the same, even when roaming internationally. And, my monthly spend is, on average, about $50 less than I was paying before. [Sign up for Google Fi](https://g.co/fi/r/J2JKT8?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### Brex is for startup businesses ![](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bfda9ab506fbe7f40570564/40b4f50b-a752-4680-9fa5-8189b0ae43cf/4e5dacfb391893cec291c79ea9bb9a849def45e0-2442x1118.png) I teamed up with Brex to get 25,000 points after spending $1000 on your Brex card. Earn an additional 10,000 points after opening a Brex business account and spending $3,000 within 90 days. I’m a satisfied customer! [Get My Brex Partner Deal](Get Mhttps://www.brex.com/product/?partnerId=chrisy Brex Partner Deal) --- ### Cash back and solid deals ![rakuten.png](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bfda9ab506fbe7f40570564/1577748261397-JY81B2ZTMXAIFXNDYN66/rakuten.png) **Rakuten: Get $50 after your first purchase** I’ve been a member since 1999, back when it was known as eBates. People complain about not getting paid for their data, but shopping with Rakuten is as close as it comes to that idea. [Save with Rakuten](www.rakuten.com/r/CHRISM5) --- ### How I feed myself every week ![box-in-kitchen.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bfda9ab506fbe7f40570564/1582091310109-XN8ONOZ4MP5NRPLGK85E/box-in-kitchen.jpg) **Take $90 off your first Sun Basket order** What I love about Sun Basket over competitors like Blue Apron is that they do more of the prep for sauces and offer healthier and leaner options for cleaner eating. Click the button to get a $40 credit to try them out! [Get $90 Off Sun Basket](https://sunbasket.com/invite/Chris756898?ref=chrismessina.me) --- #### The intelligent terminal for Mac [](https://app.warp.dev/referral/LQVYYN?ref=chrismessina.me) **Warp is a free download for Mac (and soon Windows).** I used to love iTerm 2 but have found Warp to be a welcome productivity boost when I need to work on the command line. With its embedded AI Agent and smart autocompletions, I’m able to focus on what I’m doing rather than the esoterica of the CLI. [Download Warp](https://app.warp.dev/referral/LQVYYN?ref=chrismessina.me) --- #### Insanely fast home internet [](https://www.sonic.com/referral/659258d43?ref=chrismessina.me) **Affordable 1GB Fiber to the Home** Established in 1994, Sonic has been committed to changing the way people think about the internet, offering symmetric speeds with no data caps. I consistently get full 1GB connectivity with no lag. This is essential for my coaching calls and downloading massive LLMs. If you’ve been putting up with AT&T or Comcast, I implore you to switch! You won’t regret it. [Get 1GB Sonic Fiber](https://www.sonic.com/referral/659258d43?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### Never feel hung over again [](https://fbuy.io/zbiotics/4rb7ctn3?ref=chrismessina.me) **Get $20 off your first Zbiotics order** I had the pleasure of being in the same YC batch as [Zachary Abbott](https://www.linkedin.com/in/zaabbott/?ref=chrismessina.me), the founder of Zbiotics. He’s invented some crazy GMOs to help your gut better process alcohol and now I swear by it. Whether I’m heading up to Napa for wine tasting or to a cocktail-laden speakeasy in San Francisco, I always prepare by taking a shot of Zbiotics before the festivities begin. *Highly recommended!* [Get $20 off Zbiotics](https://fbuy.io/zbiotics/4rb7ctn3?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### The insiders club for founders ![founderscard.png](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bfda9ab506fbe7f40570564/1582439336954-3QKXKKKKXQC139RP9BJ3/founderscard.png) **FoundersCard: 3 month complimentary membership** FoundersCard partners with a bunch of companies that I’m already a customer of, and has provided me with access and discounts with leading airlines, rental car programs, transportation services and innovative travel brands. [Join FoundersCard](https://founderscard.com/invite?code=VIP1CHRI118&ref=chrismessina.me) ### Invite me to be your hunter URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/invite-me/ Last updated: 2026-03-22T23:26:14.000Z You can [invite a hunter to “showcase”](https://help.producthunt.com/en/articles/10082986-hunter-vs-makers-and-how-to-change-them?ref=chrismessina.me) your Product Hunt launch once you’ve scheduled your launch. Simply edit your launch and under the **Hunter & Makers** section, search for and then invite me to be your hunter. You’ll need to send me the invite link so I can accept your invitation. ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/hunter_v_makers.webp) ### Book a call URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/call-me/ Last updated: 2026-03-22T23:26:01.000Z _No content available._ ### Got Feedback? URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/feedback/ Last updated: 2026-09-01T01:22:35.000Z If the form is slow to load, you can [open it in a new tab](https://airtable.com/appYbghJL2zntp2K7/pag3sj0Wz5tq8gIS5/form?ref=chrismessina.me). ### Tincan URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/tincan/ Last updated: 2026-08-25T15:51:39.000Z “Hello?” The Tincan Tapes of You & Yours An answering machine for two An answering machine for two. One can. One string. No feed. ## What it is Tincan is a tape deck that lives on two phones. You string the can to one person — a partner, a parent, your best friend — and from then on every note you record lands on their platter, and theirs on yours. No accounts, no contacts scraping, no feed to perform for. Your notes travel through your own iCloud, end to end, seen by nobody but the person on the other end of the string. Diane, it occurs to me that most of what we send each other all day is text pretending to be a voice. This machine skips the pretending. ## How it works **String the can** One invite link strings your can to theirs. Two people, ever. Unstring it and the notes go with it. **Talk with your hands** A real platter you scrub, keys that press, a lamp that burns while the tape rolls. It feels like hardware because it behaves like hardware. **Raise it to your ear** Notes play out loud until you lift the phone to your ear — then they whisper through the earpiece, like the tin-can telephone it's named for. **Read along** Notes transcribe on your device — never on a server — so you can skim her words while you hear her say them. ## Get it [Join the TestFlight](https://testflight.apple.com/join/TZyBdtSj?ref=chrismessina.me) Tincan is in a small beta. iOS 26 or later. The owls are not what they seem. Š 2026 Chris Messina [Privacy](https://www.chrismessina.me/tincan-privacy/) [Terms](https://www.chrismessina.me/tincan-terms/) [Support](mailto:chris.messina@gmail.com) ### Tincan Privacy Policy URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/tincan-privacy/ Last updated: 2026-08-25T20:07:35.000Z *Effective: \[DATE — set at publication\]* Tincan is a voice-note app for exactly two people, made by Chris Messina. This policy describes everything it does with your information. It is short because Tincan does very little with your information. ## What Tincan stores, and where - **Voice notes.** Recordings you make are stored on your device and, when you send them, in your personal iCloud account (CloudKit). When your can is strung to another person, sent notes live in a shared CloudKit zone that only the two of you can access. Apple encrypts CloudKit data in transit and at rest. - **Transcripts and titles.** Transcription and note titling happen entirely on your device using Apple's on-device speech and language models. Transcripts are stored locally on your device and are not uploaded. - **Your name and photo.** If you set a profile photo, it is shared only with the one person your can is strung to, through the same shared CloudKit zone. - **Read receipts.** When you play a received note, a timestamp is written back to the shared zone so the sender's app can show the note was heard. ## What Tincan does NOT do - No accounts. Tincan uses your existing iCloud identity; we never see your password, email, or phone number. - No servers of ours. Tincan has no backend. Your data moves through Apple's iCloud infrastructure under your own Apple ID. - No analytics, tracking, advertising, or telemetry of any kind. - No access to your contacts database. Choosing an invite recipient uses Apple's out-of-process contact picker; Tincan receives only the single name you pick. - No sale or sharing of data with anyone, because we do not have it. ## Microphone and speech Tincan requests microphone access to record voice notes, and speech-recognition access to transcribe them on your device. Both are used only while you use those features. Nothing recorded or transcribed leaves your device except the voice notes you explicitly send. ## Unstringing and deletion Unstringing your can removes the received notes on your device and disconnects the shared zone. Deleting a note removes its audio and transcript from your device and, for sent notes, from the shared zone. Deleting the app removes all local data; iCloud data can be removed by unstringing first, or via iCloud storage management. ## Children Tincan is not directed at children under 13 and does not knowingly collect information from them. ## Changes If this policy changes, the updated version will be posted at this address with a new effective date. ## Contact Chris Messina — hello@citizenagency.com ### Tincan Terms of Use URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/tincan-terms/ Last updated: 2026-08-22T20:12:26.000Z *Effective: \[DATE — set at publication\]* These terms govern your use of the Tincan iOS application ("Tincan"), made by Chris Messina. ## 1\. What Tincan is Tincan is a voice-messaging app that connects exactly two people through a shared iCloud container. It requires an Apple ID with iCloud enabled. Your use of iCloud is governed by Apple's own terms. ## 2\. Your content You own the voice notes you record. By sending a note, you grant the one person your can is strung to the ability to play, keep, and delete their copy of it. Tincan claims no rights to your recordings and never accesses their contents beyond what is needed to store, transmit, transcribe (on device), and play them. You are responsible for what you record and send. Don't use Tincan to harass, threaten, or record people without any consent your jurisdiction requires. ## 3\. The beta While Tincan is distributed through TestFlight it is beta software: features may change, break, or disappear, and data loss is possible despite best efforts. TestFlight builds expire; keep anything irreplaceable elsewhere. ## 4\. No warranty Tincan is provided "as is," without warranty of any kind, express or implied, including merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, and non-infringement. Your voice notes travel through Apple's iCloud; availability and durability of that infrastructure are outside our control. ## 5\. Limitation of liability To the maximum extent permitted by law, Chris Messina shall not be liable for any indirect, incidental, special, consequential, or exemplary damages arising from your use of Tincan, and total liability for any claim shall not exceed the amount you paid for the app (currently: nothing). ## 6\. Termination You can stop using Tincan at any time by unstringing your can and deleting the app. We may discontinue the app or the beta at any time. ## 7\. Changes Updated terms will be posted at this address with a new effective date. Continued use after a change constitutes acceptance. ## 8\. Contact Chris Messina — chris.messina@gmail.com ## Posts ### Three archetypes for post‑LLM builders URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/code-as-commodity/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T03:26:59.000Z I wrote a [long essay](https://medium.com/p/b9b7492dc4eb?ref=chrismessina.me) following [a talk I gave](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9ciMeRQHEk&ref=chrismessina.me) at [AI DevCon](https://ainativedev.io/devcon?ref=chrismessina.me) in Brooklyn last month. ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/73f09953-119f-4428-94a7-f455d494daf5_2500x1221-1.png) [Read essay](https://blog.chrismessina.me/code-as-commodity-b9b7492dc4eb?ref=chrismessina.me) It starts out with an anecdote about hunting ChatGPT in December 2022 and goes on to explore what I think will be necessary to thrive as **code becomes a commodity**: > *In December 2022, I hunted* [*ChatGPT*](https://www.producthunt.com/products/chatgpt/launches/chatgpt?ref=chrismessina.me) *on Product Hunt.* > > *It ranked #1 product of the day, then the week, and went on to be named Product of the Year.* > > *Having co-founded a YC-backed conversational AI startup in 2018 (long before LLMs) — I recognized in ChatGPT the missing ingredient that would have made that venture viable.* > > *The future we’d anticipated had arrived. I could revisit my old problem, or I could expand my area of potency by raising and deploying my own venture capital fund.* > > *I chose the latter.* > > *Three years later, on* [*December 9th*](https://www.producthunt.com/leaderboard/daily/2025/12/9?ref=chrismessina.me)*, I watched a 24-hour window on Product Hunt cross 500 launches — roughly double what I observed throughout the preceding 825 days. Only 13 were featured; most were unremarkable.* > > *The LLM has fundamentally shifted the economics of software development.* > > *As someone with a dual vantage point — being the* [*#1 Product Hunter*](https://www.producthunt.com/@chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me) *while* [*investing in AI startups*](https://www.ridehomefund.com/ai-fund?ref=chrismessina.me) *— I watch the floodwaters rise in real-time.* > > *What’s become clear: SaaS is dying; VC is witheringÂł. Building software is not uniquely compelling. Code has become a commodity.* > > *What most people miss about commoditization is that when a product or resource becomes abundant, it doesn’t just get cheaper. It unlocks new and previously uneconomic uses.* [Give it a read](https://blog.chrismessina.me/code-as-commodity-b9b7492dc4eb?ref=chrismessina.me) and let me know if this resonates with what you’re seeing… [Read essay](https://blog.chrismessina.me/code-as-commodity-b9b7492dc4eb?ref=chrismessina.me) --- [Subscribe](#/portal/signup) ### Hashtags in the Sky URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/hashtags-in-the-sky/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T03:26:59.000Z Since [quitting Twitter in April](https://www.chrismessina.me/a-funeral-for-chrismessina/), I’ve become active on [Mastodon](https://mastodon.xyz/@chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me), [Bluesky](https://bsky.app/profile/chrismessina.bsky.social?ref=chrismessina.me) and [T2](https://t2.social/chris?ref=chrismessina.me). None are perfect substitutes for Twitter (even as some aspire to be) — but the battle to define the future of the social web is often preoccupied with redefining elements of its past. And with reason: redos are rare in the tech world. Platforms ossify and [enshittify](https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/?ref=chrismessina.me). Network effects thwart effective social graph portability. Upstarts fake it until they… [get caught](https://www.theinformation.com/articles/social-app-irl-which-raised-200-million-shuts-down-after-ceo-misconduct-probe?ref=chrismessina.me). It’s hard to unentrench the entrenched — especially when doing so depends upon overcoming our thumbs’ muscle memory. [Subscribe](#/portal/signup) While I have more to say about the fediverse generally, today my focus is the future of hashtag support on Bluesky. While still invite only, its million member waitlist implies that its design decisions may have broad cultural implications, especially as Bluesky product developer and protocol engineer [**Paul Frazee**](https://pfrazee.github.io/?ref=chrismessina.me) [continues to work in public](https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/5-4-2022-working-in-public?ref=chrismessina.me), and has [shared](https://staging.bsky.app/profile/pfrazee.com/post/3jyugafiswd2x?ref=chrismessina.me)[several proposals](https://github.com/bluesky-social/proposals?ref=chrismessina.me) to solicit [public feedback](https://staging.bsky.app/profile/bsky.app/post/3jyug532muu24?ref=chrismessina.me). [One of those proposals](https://github.com/bluesky-social/proposals/tree/main/0003-hashtags?ref=chrismessina.me) concerns **Bluesky’s** support for hashtags — a topic of interest and familiar controversy. I’ve taken some time to write up my analysis of the problems he’s identified (spam, aesthetics, accessibility, and targeting content) and offered my evaluation of his proposals (i.e. visually separate the tags, allow spaces in tags, use curated tag search results, mute words and hashtags, opt-in hashtags). **If you care about the social web and the future of the hashtag, dive in. Clicking here will let you jump the paywall:** [Read now](https://medium.com/chris-messina/hashtags-on-bluesky-ecc9c955b3cd?ref=chrismessina.me) Thanks as always for considering and reading through! ![](https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/61b11ba9-e35d-477b-bf43-ded0492aa22c.tif) [Subscribe](#/portal/signup) ### A funeral for @chrismessina 🪦🥀 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/a-funeral-for-chrismessina/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T03:27:00.000Z I’ve died digital deaths before. The first time I died online was in 2009. I’d outgrown “[factoryjoe](https://twitter.com/@factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me)”, the pseudonym I’d worn since high school and decided to retire it, revealing my given name to everyone on the internet. [RIP @factoryjoe](https://factoryjoe.com/2009/03/02/rip-factoryjoe/?ref=chrismessina.me). Long live [@chrismessina](https://twitter.com/@chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me)! The second time was a more private affair. In the first month of [my walkabout year](https://medium.com/chris-messina/leaving-sanfrancisco-349582c18630?ref=chrismessina.me) in 2019, my Lisbon Airbnb was broken into at 4am and my laptop, phone, and wallet were stolen — and I didn’t have backups for my 2FA codes. For sure I’d never be able to sign in to my accounts again — especially Google, my authentication hub. Miraculously I did recover access — but not before I’d resigned myself to complete digital dissolution. A week ago — on April 14 — I died for the third time. Yes friends, @chrismessina is dead. ## All this over a blue check? ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/7e40ce26-780e-4a4c-b99c-eda7378790e2_1284x897-jpeg-1.jpg) Ha, *no*. Man, blue checks. Where to begin? Back in 2009, [Tony La Russa sued Twitter](https://techcrunch.com/2009/06/06/facing-lawsuits-and-complaints-from-celebs-twitter-launches-verified-accounts/?ref=chrismessina.me) because someone impersonated him and so Twitter, in its infinite wisdom, decided, “Oh hey, we can solve this by identifying authentic users if they really are who they claim to be!” Genius. And thus began the blue check program. And, like all status signifiers throughout antiquity, as Twitter’s presence grew in the public imagination, so too grew the apparent importance and desirability of obtaining a blue check. ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/ceea6462-8898-4a34-a7ee-dcb6f0383f32_1560x656.png) If you were at risk of impersonation, or because you knew someone on the inside (as I must have), then you got one. But if you were some shmuck, then you didn’t. Not that there's anything wrong with shmucks, but they just didn't get blue checks. Apparently. Needless to say, no one wanted to be a shmuck and lots of people had opinions about other shmucks who somehow *had* finagled themselves blue checks. This situation had escalated into simmering class warfare by the time Elon took over. There were the [blue-checks and the blue-check-have-nots](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1587498907336118274?ref=chrismessina.me) and people were pissed just to have something to be pissed about. The defender of truth and decency and smoking marijuana and having mutual oral sex at the same, i.e. Elon Musk, declared he would remedy the [corrupt](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1590757322149998592?ref=chrismessina.me) regime. Rather than using blue checks as a way to identify authentic accounts, it would instead indicate which users paid for vanity and validation. *Genius.* Since I was unwilling to pay, my legacy blue check would expire on April 20 — “4/20” — the date Elon would execute the blue check aristocracy. But my blue check vanished on April 14 and in protest, I committed digital seppuku. ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/458bf5f9-5514-445a-aa87-15d60861c7fc_1560x948.png) ## Must @chrismessina die? I’ll tell you how @chrismessina died. So I had a few drinks and was feeling liberal, and then I saw that an Elon retweeted an Elon Stan account (i.e. @titterdaily) to his 135M+ followers. From my perspective, the Elon Stan seemed to have stolen content from a 15 year old app researcher named [Nima Owji](https://twitter.com/nima%5Fowji?ref=chrismessina.me) from Iran. Since Nima had to complained to me about this Elon Stan account appropriating his content before, I complained to my 100K+ followers about this injustice — so smugly self-righteous was I! ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/f21aaa3e-7fd5-4885-b4ce-f0083e188ae0_1034x1534-jpeg.jpg) The annotated screenshot I tweeted calling out TitterDaily But the Elon Stan account shot back — *I was wrong!* As he explained, Nima had asked *him* to share the content, and, even though he hadn’t named Nima in the text of his tweet, he was within his rights. And, he implored, I should delete my tweet. I refused. My issue was with Elon’s *retweet* — since Elon didn’t care about the source of the image. He didn’t care whether he stole the content of a 15 year old. He had been fucking up Twitter for six months, which is his right. He bought it; he can break it. But I was once 15 and had been exploited by an older man, and couldn’t stand by as I saw something similar happen again. But this interlocutor — the Elon Stan — he didn’t care. As far as he was concerned, he had provided sufficient credit, and if his superior took advantage of young boys, well — he wasn’t responsible! So, he blocked me. ## Must we have beef? ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/a285408a-7201-426d-90fc-2d03b433e9a3_720x360.png) Hours later I was watching [BEEF](https://www.netflix.com/title/81447461?ref=chrismessina.me), and Nima DM’d me: “Wait... what happened to your Blue checkmark?” I checked. It was gone. “Why?”, you might ask. I have no idea. But: consider the circumstance. Elon Stan @TitterDaily “stole” Nima’s content, and Elon retweeted Titter’s post. I called this out, pissing off @TitterDaily. I then refused to delete me tweet, so he blocked me, and then hours later my blue check vanished. Coincidence? Please. I have no idea why I lost my blue check six days before the rest of the blue check aristocracy, but I did. I have been in relationship with Twitter for 17 years — longer than any of my adult romantic relationships — and then suddenly, I become *persona non grata*? Goodbye. 👋🏻 ### The end of Twitter I like what [said](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/14/podcasts/hard-fork-discord-leaker.html?ref=chrismessina.me): > *This is what I have been waiting for, is for somebody to wake up and say, “I do not want to come to a platform every single day and get punched in the face.”* Twitter was never a great companion or partner, but on the whole it was dynamic, acerbic, and witty. As a recovering codependent person, I know that I craved its ability to bring me feedback from strangers and friends alike. I gave Twitter the hashtag — and at best it feigned indifference, as any narcissist would. For 17 years, Twitter was my daily habit but in the last six months it has grown into a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. The Elon Stans will continue to stan. But the core of Twitter is rotten and hollow. And thus @chrismessina must die — *has died.* As one of the earliest progeny of the platform (user #1186 to be precise), having contributed something of significance (e.g. the hashtag, among other ideas) — am now moving on, hurt and grieving. Knowing that no one is left to give a shit (*fine, whatever*), I am steadfast in my demise. I condemn those who compromise their integrity to stay, because who do you do it for? I die, am dead, but no longer complicit. Tonight I will sleep well, legacy intact. ### just setting up my substack notes URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/just-setting-up-my-substack-notes/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T03:27:01.000Z Oh hey! I just published my first note on [Substack Notes](https://substack.com/notes?ref=chrismessina.me) — and will be experimenting with publishing more frequently now that Twitter is #DeadTwitter to me. Would love for you to join me there! Here’s a preview of my thoughts on ’s recent [piece](https://www.platformer.news/p/how-two-insurgents-are-taking-on?ref=chrismessina.me) discussing Artifact and Substack Notes as potential successors to the Birdsite’s throne. [Notes](http://substack.com/notes?ref=chrismessina.me) is a new space on Substack to share links, short posts, quotes, photos, and more. I’ll use it for quick hits and stuff that doesn’t fit in my newsletter, now that I’m wanting to get this thing off the ground again. LMKWYT! [Go to Notes](https://substack.com/notes?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### How to join Head to [substack.com/notes](https://substack.com/notes?ref=chrismessina.me) or find the “Notes” tab in the [Substack app](https://substack.com/app/app-store-redirect?ref=chrismessina.me). As a subscriber to *Chris Messina Has Thoughts*, you’ll automatically see my notes. Feel free to like, reply, or share them around! ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/8a49b00f-8d2b-43f7-b673-ae99359fba90_399x174.png) You can also share notes of your own. Y’know, just like on Twitter. --- If you encounter any issues, you can always refer to the [Notes FAQ](https://support.substack.com/hc/en-us/sections/14408747121940-Notes) for assistance. Looking forward to seeing you there! [Go to Notes](https://substack.com/notes?ref=chrismessina.me) [Subscribe](#/portal/signup) ### The mint edition NFT episode — Today's Twitter Space at 6pm PST/9pm EST URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-mint-edition-nft-episode-todays/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T03:27:02.000Z Today at 6pm PST/9pm EST I’ll be cohosting another live recording of the Techmeme Ride Home Experience podcast on Twitter Spaces. Details follow. [RSVP on Luma](https://lu.ma/2021-09-01-tmrh?ref=chrismessina.me) ## **We're going back down the NFT rabbit hole**! 🕳️🐇 We discussed the NFT hype earlier this year (see: [Are NFTs bad for artists?](https://pod.link/1355212895/episode/910ad4a3bb1c64d7d8283f3a641cb2ab?ref=chrismessina.me) and [the Roblox Debut](https://pod.link/1355212895/episode/f81e74a3fb6d79ab208d785b66fe2824?ref=chrismessina.me) with a mention of Beeple, etc), but it seems to have reached a fever pitch with growing momentum this week. In fact, here's a Venn diagram of NFT content (in black) compared with all other content in my Twitter timeline todayš: ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/0f21609e-0d21-4e21-8a09-d783e56c3bd5_1024x1024-1.png) After Brian minted the first [NFT of a Techmeme Ride Home podcast episode](https://rarible.com/token/0xd07dc4262bcdbf85190c01c996b4c06a461d2430:198773?ref=chrismessina.me) back in March (several editions are still for sale!), the space has exploded and we wanted to dig in and better understand why now, what's been going on recently, and how all this activity is likely to continue to play out. Is this the big shift to the promiseland of the decentralized web — with social and commerce built in from the ground floor? — or is this a speculator's paradise careening towards a Wile E Coyote-style cliff jump? ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/32113de6-5e65-4562-b3af-92374694b211_480x270.gif) To find out, we'll be joined by [**Jackson Dame**](https://twitter.com/jacksondame?ref=chrismessina.me) (who just priced a [Divine Robe of Power](https://opensea.io/assets/0xff9c1b15b16263c61d017ee9f65c50e4ae0113d7/4966?ref=chrismessina.me) for 300Ξ in the [Loot Project](https://www.lootproject.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)), [**@SHL0MS**](https://twitter.com/SHL0MS?ref=chrismessina.me) (who just minted [shattered pieces of a toilet](https://opensea.io/collection/fntn?collectionSlug=fntn&search[sortAscending]=false&search[sortBy]=LISTING%5FDATE&search[toggles][0]=ON%5FAUCTION&ref=chrismessina.me)) and other special guests (fingers crossed 🤞🏻 that [**Gaby Goldberg**](https://twitter.com/gaby%5Fgoldberg?ref=chrismessina.me) from [Bessemer](https://bvp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) will make a cameo) to discuss this and more. ## Run of today's show - Show opener - Chat about recent top tech news (10-15m): - [Apple ID to expand to support driver's licenses](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first-states-to-adopt-drivers-licenses-and-state-ids-in-wallet/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Amazon entering live audio space](https://www.axios.com/amazon-live-audio-clubhouse-competitor-ea0ead59-f6d3-49a0-a216-a4105e0338ba.html?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Satellite-based emergency service coverage coming to iPhones?](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-30/apple-plans-to-add-satellite-features-to-iphones-for-emergencies?sref=Szq5ylDR&ref=chrismessina.me) - Introducing the [#WorldCupOfEntrepreneurs](https://twitter.com/hashtag/WorldCupOfEntrepreneurs?src=hashtag%5Fclick&ref=chrismessina.me) (5m) - [Vote!](https://twitter.com/TechmemePodcast/status/1433100346440785922?s=20&ref=chrismessina.me) Everyday! - The Big Story + Special Guests (40-60m): - **NFTs Take Over the World!** ## Recommended reading [Here's What the Future of NFTs Looks LikeJPEG Summer is Over, New Format Fall has arrived.August has been a wild month for NFTs. As we look back on the month of August, a staggering $3 billion USD in NFT sales has been made on Opensea alone. While this number is due largely in part to sales of BAYC, Artblocks and CryptoPunks, a new format has captivated the internet. And it changes everything.![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/b859b34a-c727-4e99-99f8-5926ecff0afc_400x400.png)Late Checkout - a Substack by Greg Isenberg](https://latecheckout.substack.com/p/heres-what-the-future-of-nfts-looks) [Nifty CorporatesWelcome to the 2,103 newly Not Boring people who have joined us since last Monday! Join 72,599 smart, curious folks by subscribing here: 🎧 To get this essay straight in your ears: listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts (soon)![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/cca1e3ad-9de0-459e-b6d1-bd73eb2f7448_315x315.png)Not Boring by Packy McCormick](https://www.notboring.co/p/nifty-corporates?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Social Token Paradox](https://gaby.mirror.xyz/zqchiBQhWWS49gaabLU92-BUUwfBL5aHCtNT88VTI8o?ref=chrismessina.me) by [Gaby Goldberg](https://twitter.com/gaby%5Fgoldberg?ref=chrismessina.me) (Investor at Bessemer) #### [New Internet logic](https://j.mirror.xyz/k0yCgq0bjgn2X0AujhwjKIYk4SDBpdNayjU5%5FE8Wm4I?ref=chrismessina.me) by [John Palmer](https://twitter.com/john%5Fc%5Fpalmer?ref=chrismessina.me) (PartyDAO) #### [Introducing NFTs on Rally and Why We’re Focusing on Utility Over Scarcity](https://medium.com/rallynetwork/introducing-nfts-on-rally-and-why-were-focusing-on-utility-over-scarcity-43424f557c1a?ref=chrismessina.me) by Chris Fortier (VP of Product for Rally.io) #### [**She’s the Investor Guru for Online Creators**](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/technology/li-jin-youtube-creators.html?ref=chrismessina.me) By [Taylor Lorenz](http://www.taylorlorenz.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Some news... and: a livestream today! 🏆 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/some-news-and-a-livestream-today/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T03:27:02.000Z ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/840115b6-500e-4b20-a411-075bfaee2f8e_1076x1920.webp) Last week I [invited you to join me](https://www.chrismessina.me/join-me-at-the-2020-golden-kitty/) for the [2020 Product Hunt Golden Kitty Awards](https://www.producthunt.com/golden-kitty-awards-2020?ref=chrismessina.me) ceremony — and if you stayed for the entire event, you already know that I was awarded the prestigious [**Community Member of the Year Award**](https://twitter.com/chrismessina/status/1354929076784353282?ref=chrismessina.me)! I last won this award back in 2017, so it’s quite the honor to receive this award once again, especially considering how focused I became on my Product Hunt participation in 2020\. Expect even more focus and refinement in 2021! If you’re serious about coming out to the world this year — [hit me up](https://superpeer.com/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me). The competition for 2020’s top contenders was fierce — can you even tell that the human race was facing a pandemic?! — go [check out the winners](https://www.producthunt.com/stories/announcing-the-2020-golden-kitty-award-winners?ref=chrismessina.me) and you’ll see... innovation did *not* slow down. From the 1000s of launches that took place in 2020, there’s a solid list of great products in there. [Clubhouse](https://joinclubhouse.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) won the top spot — and considering their [$1B valuation](https://www.joinclubhouse.com/welcoming-more-voices?ref=chrismessina.me) — it’ll be hard to look back at 2020 without reflecting on their meteoric rise. Congrats to that team and to the dozens of other makers who earned recognition for their efforts in 2020! --- # Join my livestream today! ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/eced5d41-305a-4e26-977a-182f6711f289_2308x1298.png) TODAY at 3pm PST/6pm EST — I will be joining my man, [Aron Korenblit](https://twitter.com/aronkor?ref=chrismessina.me), *education at Airtable*, in a livestream demonstrating how I use [Alfred](https://alfredapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) to quickly and efficiently navigate web apps. Basically, if you use a Mac and a web browser — you should *not* miss this stream. AND, if you are not on Airtable — I don’t know what you’re waiting for — [here’s your chance to level up, ](https://airtable.com/invite/r/M6euSS67?ref=chrismessina.me)[*level up level up*](https://airtable.com/invite/r/M6euSS67?ref=chrismessina.me). Sure, maybe Airtable is the Microsoft Access of 2021, but actually that’s saying something! (I run my entire Product Hunt business on Airtable!). Regardless — you should join us: - [Add the stream to your calendar](https://bit.ly/2YDsunO?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Add the public calendar](https://bit.ly/3oq3Oe6?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Join via the Twitch link](https://www.twitch.tv/AutomateAlltheThingsTV?ref=chrismessina.me) And if you’re not already subscribed, consider checking out my [Alfred Newsletter](https://alfredapp.substack.com/) — which covers Alfred Workflows, Themes, and tips & tricks that have become essential to how I get things done! --- I’ll see ya there! ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/d75c3ef2-64b7-4310-abd6-867e875cc0e1_1456x274.png) ### Join me at the 2020 Golden Kitty Awards! URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/join-me-at-the-2020-golden-kitty/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T03:27:03.000Z I’ll keep this brief, but I’m going to be participating in Product Hunt’s annual [Golden Kitty Awards](https://www.producthunt.com/golden-kitty-awards-2020?ref=chrismessina.me) tomorrow, hosted by excellent-haired Substacker [Casey Newton](https://www.platformer.news/?ref=chrismessina.me), with special guests [Josh Buckley](https://twitter.com/joshbuckley?ref=chrismessina.me), [Tiffany Zhong](https://twitter.com/TZhongg?ref=chrismessina.me), and [Lolita Taub](https://twitter.com/lolitataub?ref=chrismessina.me). I’ll be joining a panel of these esteemed folks right around **1pm PST**. You can sign up here: [Register for Golden Kitty Awards](https://app.experiencewelcome.com/events/aZzudd/stages/NJdfk0?ref=chrismessina.me) As it turns out, I [hunted 43 of the finalists](https://medium.com/chris-messina/2020-golden-kitty-awards-a4a1ddb50fa8?source=collection%5Fhome---------0----------------------------) for this year’s awards and I’m super stoked to see which of them will ascend the big stage! And if you’re among the nominees — congrats! I’m rooting for you — and thrilled to have been part of your journey. Of course I’m still available for consultation [via Superpeer](https://superpeer.com/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me). I’ve now done over 215 calls — and many have resulted in high ranking Product Hunt launches. Regardless, welcome to 2021\. I’ve got a good feeling about this year. 😉 Hope to see you tomorrow! ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/cadcf7dd-68ed-4cbd-a9b2-b839e1fe6cd1_1400x300.png) ### 🎩 Free Icon Starter Set for Alfred users URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/-free-icon-starter-set-for-alfred/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T03:27:03.000Z After a successful launch of my [**Alfred Custom Web Searches**](https://www.producthunt.com/posts/alfred-custom-web-searches/?ref=chrismessina.me) on Product Hunt, I’ve continued adding custom searches and creating icons to accompany them. In doing so, I realized that nearly all of the default web searches that come pre-installed with [Alfred](https://alfredapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) had ugly or outdated icons! I mean, take a look! ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/d016b59b-01af-4aae-8e08-0da82f3581c2_1292x970.png) This just wouldn’t do! So I decided to go ahead and make custom icons for each of these, and then publish the custom searches to [my directory](https://alfred.pory.app/?ref=chrismessina.me). Here’s what the new icons look like: ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/7383c0a9-91e3-4f6a-9376-2a25ffea351c_1018x662.png) Much better, right? You can grab these icons from here — and **they’re totally free**. [Download Starter Icon Set for Free](https://gum.co/alfred-starter-set?ref=chrismessina.me) In the included README file, there’s also a handy list of install links for the default searches to make it easy to add replacement searches in Alfred. Everything you need to know is included. You can send me request for icons directly or [fill out my form](https://airtable.com/shr4nD9GTdaB6o4OH?ref=chrismessina.me) if you’d like me to list your favorite custom web search! ## One more thing I’ve decided to setup a [free, dedicated newsletter](http://alfredapp.substack.com/) for tips, tricks, and updates about how I use Alfred to spare you, my dear readers of *this* newsletter, from having to get all those updates if you’re not as avid an Alfred fan as I am. You can sign up for that newsletter here: [Subscribe to The Alfred Newsletter](http://alfredapp.substack.com/) —Chris P.S. My original set of [100+ Custom Web Search Icons for Alfred](https://gum.co/alfred-icons?ref=chrismessina.me) is of course still available and continuing to be updated! ### 2500 hunts and counting... URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/2500-hunts-and-counting/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T03:27:05.000Z My Product Hunt journey began all the way back in 2014\. Today I hunted my 2500th product on Product Hunt. And yesterday, Product Hunt founder and CEO Ryan Hoover [announced that after seven years at the helm he’s stepping down ](https://www.producthunt.com/stories/product-hunt-s-new-ceo-josh-buckley?bc=1&ref=chrismessina.me)and installing [Josh Buckley](https://www.joshbuckley.co/?ref=chrismessina.me) as the new CEO. So: a big day in the Product Hunt world! ## How Product Hunt took over my life in 2020 I started hunting products as a hobby, because doing so gave me a way to “surf future trends” and to learn from other founders and makers about how they perceived problems worth solving, and then got to work implementing their solutions. It was just something I did for fun, and as I built up a following, posting other makers’ products felt like a way be useful and to amplify other’s work. With the pandemic, my globetrotting speaking lifestyle came to a halt and I began to realize that Product Hunt had gradually taken over my life, what with scheduling hunts and providing ad hoc advice and feedback to makers. Once my friend [Devrim](https://twitter.com/devrimyasar?ref=chrismessina.me) launched [Superpeer](https://superpeer.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) in March (and [I hunted it!](https://www.producthunt.com/posts/superpeer?ref=chrismessina.me)), I realized that I could shift my efforts to provide deeper insights and strategy to the makers whose products I had been hunting. Having setup [my Superpeer profile](https://superpeer.com/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me), I pitched Ryan on integrating a Superpeer mentor directory into Product Hunt, and he went for it, resulting in [the launch](https://producthunt.com/posts/product-hunt-mentors-network?ref=chrismessina.me) of the [Product Hunt Mentors Network](https://www.producthunt.com/mentors?ref=chrismessina.me) in July. And so for most of this year, I’ve focused on supporting makers and founders get the word out about their products — through hunts and on over Superpeer 130 calls! ## My 2500th hunt ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/569ef2b1-ae2e-44a6-8cb8-d0ccfd9f7f99_832x885.png) A couple days ago I realized that I was fast approaching my 2500th hunt and wanted to make it special. As I’ve been digging into [Alfred](https://alfredapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) this year and developing [my own workflows and themes](https://chrismessina.github.io/alfred-app/?ref=chrismessina.me), I decided I’d spend [my 2500th hunt](https://www.producthunt.com/posts/alfred-custom-web-searches?ref=chrismessina.me) on something *I* made — a collection of over 100 custom web searches for [Alfred](https://www.alfredapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) published using Airtable and Pory (which [I hunted](https://www.producthunt.com/posts/pory-1?ref=chrismessina.me) a month ago!). So for only the 16th time since 2014, I’ve added myself as a maker to a product on Product Hunt! [See my 2500th Hunt](https://www.producthunt.com/posts/alfred-custom-web-searches?ref=chrismessina.me) In addition to the one-click installable custom web search directory, I also published [over 80 custom icons](https://gum.co/vKmOnr?ref=chrismessina.me) to accompany those web searches so everything looks great in the [custom themes](https://chrismessina.github.io/alfred-app/themes/?ref=chrismessina.me) I’ve designed for Alfred, like in [my Dropbox Paper theme](https://chrismessina.github.io/alfred-app/themes/dropbox-paper/?ref=chrismessina.me): ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/2aab0724-ba14-452e-b281-f13b2c98130c_678x736.png) Here’s the full set: ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/9fed0ed8-1b1b-494a-abf1-b9f9e678ce4a_1502x1429.png) **And to celebrate Ryan’s seven years with Product Hunt, you can take 70% off the price with code** [rrhoover](https://gumroad.com/l/vKmOnr/rrhoover?ref=chrismessina.me)**!** To use these icons, you can just drag them into the custom search icon well on the info sheet: ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/fa99cadd-4941-4edd-8fd1-01ec14b67a16_720x380.gif) # And one more thing… ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/8b861f7d-e192-46a9-aed9-72e939ab22a1_1920x1080.png) I’m excited to share that I’m developing a course on ***How to Nail Your Launch on Product Hunt* 🚀**! It’ll be coming out this fall and to be among the first to find out (and to get a good deal!), sign up for my Product Hunt course newsletter here: [Sign up for Early Access](https://producthunt.substack.com/) ### 🎧 Podcast interview with Brett Goldstein (@thatguyBG) on digital identity, design, and inventing the hashtag URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/podcast-interview-with-brett-goldstein/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T04:02:20.000Z 🎧 Podcast interview with Brett Goldstein (@thatguyBG) on digital identity, design, and inventing the hashtag 0:00 /200 1× Hey there! Remember me? I know it’s been a while since [you last heard from me](https://www.chrismessina.me/silicon-valley-is-all-wrong-about/) (geez, has it already been nine months! *I know I know*… 🙄) but in the meantime it seems like newsletters have become the rage (so much so that people are [asking for tools](https://twitter.com/dangrover/status/1306794559939031040?s=21&ref=chrismessina.me) to aggregate the deluge of newsletters they’ve subscribed to! (Hint: I’ve heard [ZenInbox](https://www.zeninbox.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is working on this)). Of course, I remember the time when we had feed readers for this purpose, so inevitably, what comes around goes around. I’m hoping to write more often but won’t make any promises, especially since Sari Azout [says I don’t have to](https://sariazout.substack.com/p/check-your-pulse-52). In the meantime, I want you to check out my friend and fellow [On Deck fellow](https://beondeck.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (*wink*) [Brett Goldstein](https://twitter.com/thatguybg?ref=chrismessina.me)’s excellent newsletter [*Social Studies*](https://socialstudies.news/?ref=chrismessina.me). [![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/ead9cf79-197b-4ccf-ba05-510efbe65ba7_1980x396.png)](https://socialstudies.news/?ref=chrismessina.me) His [latest issue](https://socialstudies.substack.com/p/-chris-messinas-thoughts-on-digital) features an interview and podcast with *yours truly* on a range of topics, including one of my favorite original metaphors for describing advertising, which I came up with when I was walking on [a remote island](https://goo.gl/maps/NXFvdc3uwx27uTKd8?ref=chrismessina.me) on the Western coast of Scotland: ***the blackberry and the bramble***. This is actually the blackberry that inspired the idea: ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/224ceb4c-2929-440f-9ccb-127f80790b9e_665x696-jpeg.jpg) Anyway, I think you’ll enjoy the conversation. We get into some really juicy topics! [Read Brett's post](https://socialstudies.substack.com/p/-chris-messinas-thoughts-on-digital) --- I’d also be remiss if I didn’t mention [my brief cameo](https://twitter.com/chrismessina/status/1304129593511563264?s=21&ref=chrismessina.me) in [*The Social Dilemma*](https://netflix.com/watch/81254224?ref=chrismessina.me), a new Netflix documentary about the harms of social media as told by the folks responsible for \[some of\] them. I’ll have to write down my thoughts at another time but to answer your burning question — yes, that’s me in the audience sitting next to [Tom Coates](http://plasticbag.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and in front of [Jyri EngestrĂśm](http://www.zengestrom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Caterina Fake](https://caterina.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)! ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/5098c780-b6be-4df2-97bc-ead4ff53aa35_713x378-jpeg-1.jpg) --- Ok, I’ll leave it at that for now. Would love your feedback on the podcast interview. Have a great weekend! [Leave a comment](#ghost-comments-root) ### Defining "open" URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/1313-2/ Last updated: 2026-03-26T23:28:20.000Z Standards represent a state of understanding, more or less at a code or API-level, that multiple parties can agree on. A standard may not necessary support all potential use cases, but it should be developed to cover the common cases well, and make the uncommon cases not impossible to support. The current debate in the cloud computing community sounds a lot like the call I made some time ago arguing that Facebook and OpenSocial should find ways to collaborate on more social networking standards to enhance interop. I have largely been impressed by Facebook's public statements to support open standards and protocols where they exist, and in joining the OpenID Foundation have made what I hope is the first of many steps towards becoming a good citizen of the open web community. > "We need to understand when parts of the technology need to be interchangeable (”substitutable”) versus simply interoperable." — [Bob Sutor](http://www.sutor.com/newsite/blog-open/?p=3321&ref=chrismessina.me) Our challenge then is to define or clarify what "[open](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open%5FStandard?ref=chrismessina.me)" means to the uninitiated audience, that has not necessarily had to grapple with the related but different concepts of substitutability and interoperability. Example of Facebook platform. ### Silicon Valley is All Wrong About the Cybertruck URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/silicon-valley-is-all-wrong-about/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T03:27:06.000Z In the past I’ve had inklings that Silicon Valley was wrong — [first about Apple’s AirPods](https://medium.com/chris-messina/silicon-valley-is-all-wrong-about-the-airpods-8204ede08f0f?ref=chrismessina.me) (which just [sold 3M units this past weekend](https://9to5mac.com/2019/12/02/apple-airpods-pro-big-hit-black-friday-cyber-monday/?ref=chrismessina.me)), and [then about Amazon’s Echo Show](https://medium.com/chris-messina/amazon-echo-show-354b93b448b5?ref=chrismessina.me) (Alexa continues to be at the center of Amazon’s consumer strategy). In both cases, I think my perspective proved out. The unveiling of the Cybertruck once again struck me as historically important (here’s a [5 min recap video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7atGkba-Z8&ref=chrismessina.me)), yet the reactions seemed to miss its significance. So once again, I published my thoughts and was thrilled when Medium featured my piece in their [just-refreshed OneZero publication](https://onezero.medium.com/welcome-to-a-refreshed-onezero-f558da1ca0c8?ref=chrismessina.me), which you can read here: [![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/2fe10c46-1476-4e41-8d72-81bc80fe5ff5_800x600-1.png)](https://onezero.medium.com/cybertruck-697cd63515df?source=friends%5Flink&sk=7a4a320501b0b2ea26e0dce5c822bc10) [Read the post for free](https://onezero.medium.com/cybertruck-697cd63515df?ref=chrismessina.me) My argument is that Silicon Valley (and everyone else of similar mind) is wrong to evaluate the Cybertruck as a *truck*. Instead, I see the Cybertruck as an important milestone along the road towards humankind becoming a multiplanetary species! 👽 Therefore comparisons with Ford’s F-150 or F-250 are missing the point. A *useful* comparison would contrast those vehicles’ potentials as spacefaring vehicles against the Cybertruck! And that, my friends, is why Silicon Valley is wrong about the Cybertruck! Chris --- *P.S. I’m trying something new and publishing with the* [*Medium Partner Program*](https://help.medium.com/hc/en-us/articles/360024409274?ref=chrismessina.me)*, which means I get paid a small amount when Medium members read my piece. As a thank you for subscribing to my newsletter, I’m sending you a link that will let you* [*bypass the paywall*](https://onezero.medium.com/cybertruck-697cd63515df?source=friends%5Flink&sk=7a4a320501b0b2ea26e0dce5c822bc10)*. Enjoy!* *P.P.S. The awesome* [*low-poly artwork*](https://www.instagram.com/p/B5LOgsRHRtY/?ref=chrismessina.me) *above is by* [*pelopoly*](https://www.instagram.com/pelopoly/?ref=chrismessina.me)*.* ### Happy #HashtagDay! URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/happy-hashtagday/ Last updated: 2026-03-23T03:27:07.000Z Wow, so it’s been forever since I last wrote and there’s been a lot going on. You may or may not know, but I parted ways with Molly in April and now I’m on to new adventures. Here’s the latest from me: --- **Happy #HashtagDay!** Today marks the 11th anniversary of the [first ever use of a hashtag](https://twitter.com/chrismessina/status/223115412?ref=chrismessina.me): ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/1c127c87-473e-4e08-b4e9-ae45e3108f87_562x238-1.png) Of course, the origin story of the hashtag isn’t complete without referencing my [blog post](https://j.mp/tagchannels?ref=chrismessina.me) where I spelled out how “tag channels” should work, complete with mockups for trending topics! According to Twitter, [there are now over 125M hashtags shared ](https://twitter.com/Twitter/status/1032676609902428160?ref=chrismessina.me)[*every day*](https://twitter.com/Twitter/status/1032676609902428160?ref=chrismessina.me) — and that’s just on Twitter. As I’ve explained elsewhere, hashtags were never intended *just* for Twitter, even though that’s where they started. Instead, they were intended to be used as a means to unify conversations *across social media*, and indeed it turns out that they’re broadly used on nearly every platform that allows you to write your own text! If you want a deep dive on the origins of the hashtag, [check out this story](https://www.wired.com/2017/11/gadget-lab-podcast-336/?ref=chrismessina.me) that my friend Michael Calore published last year for Wired’s Gadget Lab. And if learning about esoteric typographic symbols is more your thing, Roman Mars recently [re-aired an interview](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/octothorpe/?ref=chrismessina.me) I did for 99% Invisible on the origins of the *octothorpe* (the hashtag’s technical name) in their [episode on the interrorbang](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/interrobang/?ref=chrismessina.me). --- **Relationship Design: the next frontier?** I’ve lately been exploring an expansion of *conversational commerce*, [the phrase I coined](http://j.mp/convcomm-2016?ref=chrismessina.me) to describe the rise of brands and software services that are delivered through 1:1 voice and messaging channels, with something I call [**Relationship Design**](http://relationship.design/?ref=chrismessina.me). It’s still early days and frankly, it’s currently a pretty high level framing, but there’s something important in it. I’ve recorded two podcasts on the topic and I’d love for you to take a listen and let me know what you think: - **Machine Yearning:** [(Episode 01) Chris Messina: Full Interview](https://www.breaker.audio/machine-yearning/e/34882767?ref=chrismessina.me) - **Local Maximum:** [(Episode 26) Chris Messina on Conversational Commerce, Relationship Design, and the Future of Brands](https://www.breaker.audio/the-local-maximum-expand-your-perspective/e/36544155?ref=chrismessina.me) **Can I ask for your vote?** If this topic interests you, I’d love to get your vote for [my SXSW 2019](https://panelpicker.sxsw.com/vote/89732?ref=chrismessina.me) panel featuring [Andy Mauro](https://medium.com/@dandymauro?ref=chrismessina.me), [Shane Mac](https://medium.com/@shanemac?ref=chrismessina.me), and [Kathryn Hume](https://medium.com/@KHume?ref=chrismessina.me). **Voting ends August 30, so please do this ASAP!** [](https://panelpicker.sxsw.com/vote/89732?ref=chrismessina.me)**Come see me speak IRL** In addition to podcasts, I’ve also got two speaking gigs lined up this fall where I’ll continue to explore the idea of Relationship Design and conversational brands. The first is the [Conversational Commerce Conference](http://opusresearch.cvent.com/events/conversational-commerce-conference-sf-2018/event-summary-afda05bd4bac46ee9dd83f5bbc9ad74a.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me) put on by Opus Research in San Francisco from September 12-13. The second is Forrester’s [CX SF 2018](https://events.forrester.com/ehome/cxsf18/652457/?ref=chrismessina.me) event in San Francisco from October 2-3\. I just recorded a podcast with the **What It Means** team this morning so [subscribe](https://go.forrester.com/what-it-means/?ref=chrismessina.me) so you don’t miss it! **Now for something totally new…!** Ok, here’s something you definitely don’t want to miss, because I’ve been keeping this under wraps… I’ve been working on something new with the [Facemoji](https://facemoji.co/?ref=chrismessina.me) team called **Fmoji (**pronounced *fuh-mo-gee* **)**. It’s not public yet but [I’m looking for early testers](https://www.producthunt.com/upcoming/fmoji?ref=chrismessina.me) to help us define the direction of this new concept. I won’t say much more, except to leave you with a teaser: ![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/9e/8a/9e8a2c1f-873d-44c9-8c06-57c515181f44/content/images/2026/03/f89f5c85-7e6a-49f1-8af2-89d635fdec0c_508x508.gif) [**Subscribe to get updates here.**](https://www.producthunt.com/upcoming/fmoji?ref=chrismessina.me) **Invites are limited.** Til next time! <3 [Chris](https://twitter.com/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Something wicked this way walks URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/coming-soon-69c0b2fe7d72e5001b29dd20/ Last updated: 2018-06-06T04:29:51.000Z I’ve never been very good at spamming people’s inboxes because I can barely keep up with my own. But still, some very fine people have expressed an interest in hearing from me from time to time, and since I still inhabit this mortal shell, I might as well put in some effort to make good on that. So, this is where my newsletter exists. I’ll do my best to respect your time and attention, as I know it’s limited, just like mine. 🖤 ### Happy birthday to me! I’m joining Google URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/happy-birthday-to-me-im-joining-google/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:30.000Z [](https://google.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)Yes friends, I’m turning 29 and I’ve decided to go work for The Man. ![;)](https://web.archive.org/web/20100110054503im_/http://factoryjoe.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif) In all actuality, I’ve been mulling over such a move for some time, considering a number of compelling opportunities for my next step. After reviewing my options — in light of the progress I’ve made so far and my familiarity and existing relationships with the new team at Google that I’ll be working with — I came to the conclusion that Google offers me the best possible opportunity to continue my work in an environment and culture that is [compatible with my outlook](https://web.archive.org/web/20100110054503/http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/meaning-of-open.html), goals, and work habits. I was trained as a designer, but I’ve been involved with the tech scene since I arrived in Silicon Valley just over five years ago. In some ways, technology has reshaped the way I approach and solve problems — forcing me to think in terms of adoption strategies first, rather than always trying to find the simplest, cleanest design, because of the disadvantaged position I occupied as a non-coder. I can see the consequences of these effects on my approaches first to OAuth, and then to Activity Streams, as well as with OpenID, with positive and negative results. In some ways I’ve had to temper my designer training and put technology first in order to grow an audience. But now I’m ready for new challenges that will expand my ideas and tactics, force me to attack problems from new perspectives, and dip into my design thinking repertoire to operate at a whole new level. Though I consistently aim high, I want more success in turning my ideas into tangible outcomes, and in doing so, prove the power that I see in open, interoperable standards that can make the web a richer and more intricately spun space. In some ways, I’m still just getting started with my work. In joining Google, I see the chance to have a greater impact than I might otherwise on my own. That said, I won’t lose track of what intrinsically motivates me — that I’ve always been about spreading the benefits of the web by creating technology that fosters innovation and choice. And there’s where I see alignment with what I’ve been doing, and what Google needs to succeed. In fact, my new title at Google? The same one I independently gave myself a year ago: “Open Web Advocate”. In this role, I’ll still be an active community board member of the [OpenID](https://web.archive.org/web/20100110054503/http://openid.net/) and [Open Web](https://web.archive.org/web/20100110054503/http://openwebfoundation.org/) Foundations; I hope to help push the [Activity Streams](https://web.archive.org/web/20100110054503/http://activitystrea.ms/) project forward with a 1.0 release of the spec soon. And I’m still hopeful about the future of my semi-neglected and half dormant [Diso Project](https://web.archive.org/web/20100110054503/http://diso-project.org/)! I’ll also soon be publishing the results of my collaboration with Mozilla Labs, which will provide some insight into what social networking in the browser might look like, and how [OpenID Connect](https://web.archive.org/web/20100110054503/http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2010/01/04/openid-connect/) might play a role in it. For good measure, I should also point out that my good friend and colleague [Joseph Smarr](https://web.archive.org/web/20100110054503/http://josephsmarr.com/) also made a similar decision recently — unbeknownst to me at the time! — and [announced that he’ll be joining Google](https://web.archive.org/web/20100110054503/http://josephsmarr.com/2009/12/18/joseph-smarr-has-new-work-info%E2%80%A6/) later this month as well. So, net-net, I’m stoked to be joining The Man Google, and very thankful to have had as much support from the many, many people with whom I’ve connected through the synapses of the social web over these past several years. This is of course a very happy birthday present for me, and I’m eagerly anticipating what’s next for the open social web in 2010…! This can all still be made better. Ready? Begin. Feel free to leave a comment here, or get in touch [via email](https://chrismessina.me/contact?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Chris Messina](https://chrismessina.me/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2022-01-24 17:40:44 Seriously. Reading back on this — how different were things! Thank you for stopping by. **[n8chz](http://anagory.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2022-01-07 15:35:03 Happy birthday Joe, or Chris, as the case may be. I hope your trajectory has gone well. Must admit I think of 2010 as an achingly more innocent time. ### The Fall of Vidoop URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-fall-of-vidoop/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:44.000Z [](http://vidoop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)When I left [Flock](http://flock.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) in 2006, I [blogged the occasion](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/03/20/sublimating/?ref=chrismessina.me), having helped start the company by contributing a vision for what I thought the web needed: a social browser. When I was laid off from [Vidoop](http://vidoop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) last month, I didn't so much as tweet about it. The circumstances were different this time. But because the lack of information coming from the company is disappointing (if not frankly irresponsible) it seemed time that I wrote down my recollection of what went down. ### Joining Vidoop I [joined](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/05/13/im-joining-vidoop-to-work-on-diso-full-time/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Vidoop](http://blog.vidoop.com/2008/05/vidoop-hires-open-source-veterans-chris-messina-and-will-norris/?ref=chrismessina.me) just [over a year ago](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/messina%5Fnorris%5Fvidoop.php?ref=chrismessina.me), in May of 2008\. To be honest, my initial impressions of the company weren't exactly positive, having first seen [Luke Sontag](http://www.linkedin.com/pub/luke-sontag/1/933/446?ref=chrismessina.me) (Vidoop's [co-founder and president](http://vidoop.com/company/management/?ref=chrismessina.me), or " [Chief Koolaid Officer](http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/webex2007/view/e%5Fspkr/3449?ref=chrismessina.me) " as he called himself) [launch the company](http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/webex2007/view/e%5Fsess/13261?ref=chrismessina.me) with a [slick pitch](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U39Nc75%5FC5Q&ref=chrismessina.me) at the Web 2.0 Expo in San Francisco in April of 2007, proclaiming that Vidoop was going to do a rev-share with OpenID relying parties as well as regular users of the [MyVidoop](http://myvidoop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) service. I remember muttering to [Scott Kveton](http://scott.kveton.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) — friend and chairman of the OpenID Foundation: "Great, someone's attempting to exploit OpenID already." I didn't think about Vidoop again until February 2008, when I found out that Kveton had joined the company after leaving [Strands](http://www.strands.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), a former client of [Citizen Agency](http://citizenagency.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Kveton urged me to reconsider my impressions, suggesting that I fly to Portland in early April and have Luke pitch me on joining the team. Over drinks at Clyde Common, Luke laid out his grand vision for the company and invited me to come work full time on the [Diso Project](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) under Vidoop's stable. Considering the difficult changes I was going through [professionally and personally](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/01/14/transitions/?ref=chrismessina.me), it seemed like a great opportunity to throw myself into my work without having to worry about finding new clients for a while. So, with Kveton's encouragement, I [accepted their offer](http://blog.vidoop.com/2008/05/vidoop-hires-open-source-veterans-chris-messina-and-will-norris/?ref=chrismessina.me), [pulling in Will Norris](http://willnorris.com/2008/05/why-im-going-to-vidoop?ref=chrismessina.me) and [announcing the news](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/05/13/im-joining-vidoop-to-work-on-diso-full-time/?ref=chrismessina.me) a [month later](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/messina%5Fnorris%5Fvidoop.php?ref=chrismessina.me) — news that was [met](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/05/14/vidoop-secures-messina-and-norris/?ref=chrismessina.me) [rather warmly](http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=25419820%40N00&q=vidoop+twitter&m=text&ref=chrismessina.me). I would work remotely from San Francisco with Will — our work on the Diso Project helping to raise the visibility of Vidoop in the open source and identity arenas — while Vidoop's efforts would increase the relevance of strong security in consumer applications built on a raft of open standards, like [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). ### The Oregon Trail [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/kveton/2565147104/?ref=chrismessina.me)A month after I joined, I took a trip down to Tulsa to meet the crew for a company all-hands and get a taste of life in the wild wild west (as Luke called it). I was surprised at the [size of the company](http://www.flickr.com/photos/12317118@N06/2565430845/in/set-72157605563481161/?ref=chrismessina.me) (around 40 at the time) and the feeling of familiarity ( [in the "familial" sense](http://www.flickr.com/photos/12317118@N06/sets/72157605563481161/?ref=chrismessina.me) ) among the employees — clearly these folks cared a great deal about each other and what they were doing and were eager to prove to the world that Oklahoma could product high-tech stars too. The contrast between my initial impressions of Luke's slick stage presence with the down-to-earth candor of the developers and rest of the company left me positively charged and ready to contribute. There was a lot of heart in the company; perhaps I had judged too hastily? [Joel Norvell](http://www.linkedin.com/pub/2/905/530?ref=chrismessina.me) — the unassuming CEO and one-time ballet dancer and former chairman and CFO of a jewelry manufacturer — surprised everyone, standing atop a stump to declare that [the company would be relocating to Portland](http://blog.vidoop.com/2008/06/vidoop-hitting-the-oregon-trail/?ref=chrismessina.me). The company would offer assistance for the move, taking care of various expenses and working with families to smooth out the transition. I was impressed by the amount of help offered to the employees — a level of hands-on support that I'd not seen at any company that I'd worked with. It gave me pause, considering the magnitude of asking some 40-odd folks to uproot their families and move across the country to follow a dream: "Would this actually work?" As it turned out, this was not the first time that moving the company had been proposed. In fact, Luke had enthusiastically suggested a number of other possible destinations, only to be turned down by his more even-keeled CEO. This time, however, with Kveton on board as the resident "[Portvangelist](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=portvangelist&ref=chrismessina.me)", Luke succeeded. The plan was to spend the summer finding housing and making arrangements and then leave in September, following the route of the original [Oregon Trail](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon%5FTrail?ref=chrismessina.me) in a [train of rented campers and U-Hauls](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/09/03/vidoop-oregon-trail-you-have-not-died-of-dysentery/?ref=chrismessina.me), [recording, blogging, tweeting and podcasting](http://blog.vidoop.com/oregontrail/?ref=chrismessina.me) the hell out of the whole ordeal ([Silicon Florist](http://siliconflorist.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) coverage [1](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/06/12/vidoop-troop-1-portland-by-way-of-tulsa/?ref=chrismessina.me), [2](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/06/19/vidoop-troop-2-portland-by-way-of-tulsa/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [3](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/06/26/vidoop-troop-3-portland-by-way-of-tulsa/?ref=chrismessina.me) ) — culminating with a parade down mainstreet in Portland and a greeting from the mayor. \[googlemaps https://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=tulsa,+ok&daddr=Portland,+OR&sll=36.14976,-95.99333&sspn=0.642046,1.043701&ie=UTF8&source=embed&t=p&ll=41.902277,-110.478516&spn=22.86318,39.550781&z=4&output=embed&w=450&h=350\] Though thankfully no one died of dysentery (in spite of a few "unforeseen detours"), it turned out that the parade and mayoral greeting were just the beginning of several oversold and underdelivered promises from management. ### Shiny, shiny things Turned out that uprooting and transplanting an entire company from the middle of the country to the west coast is more costly than one might otherwise think. The decision to switching from PHP to Python also had its costs, primarily on developer focus (even if the decision played to the strengths of the dev team). Between the upheaval of the move and switching development modes — the team lost a lot of time, resulting in missed deadlines, unfinished projects and lost contracts. Merely two months after cozying in above [Backspace](http://www.backspace.bz/?ref=chrismessina.me) in Portland's Old Town, Vidoop [announced "changes"](http://blog.vidoop.com/2008/11/changes-at-vidoop/?ref=chrismessina.me) — a euphemism for layoffs. Blaming the economy, [Vidoop shed 11 employees](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/11/03/vidoop-has-to-let-some-folks-go/?ref=chrismessina.me). Blogging as CEO, Joel prudently pledged to "concentrate on those areas that make the most sense in this economy." As part of the changes, they also cut me back to half-time — leaving me with rent money, health insurance and a shaky future with the company. With a new emphasis on product, my work on Diso was scaled back and I was tasked with [redesigning](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3325824507/?ref=chrismessina.me) the company website, working on the UI for [VidoopSecure](http://vidoop.com/vidoopsecure/?ref=chrismessina.me) and helping to architect the user experience for the-silently-launched [VidoopConnect](http://vidoop.com/vidoopconnect/?ref=chrismessina.me) product (now defunct). I traveled to Portland several times during the winter and spring. We were making considerable progress with a renewed sense of urgency and will to execute. The VidoopConnect team in particular, lead by [Adam Lowry](http://adam.therobots.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Michael Richardson](http://gobyairship.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), was firing on all cylinders. Some time in February, however, the focus again began to blur. [](http://vidoop.com/captcha/?ref=chrismessina.me)On top of the other half-finished products in Vidoop's quiver, [VidoopCAPTCHA](http://vidoop.com/captcha/?ref=chrismessina.me) was [introduced](http://blog.vidoop.com/2009/02/vidoopcaptcha-launch/?ref=chrismessina.me) a lightweight mechanism to promote the [ImageShield](https://login.vidoop.com/docs/imageshield?ref=chrismessina.me) — as well as attempt to dethrone [ReCAPTCHA](http://recaptcha.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). Development on VidoopConnect ceased. Will Norris was reallocated to VidoopCAPTCHA and implemented a [plugin for WordPress](http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/vidoopcaptcha/?ref=chrismessina.me) while the rest of the team produced an [API](http://vidoop.com/captcha/download/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [web service](https://api.vidoop.com/static/ws.html?ref=chrismessina.me). The shift from VidoopConnect was abrupt and unprecedented: just one more example of the chaos of Vidoop's product strategy. [](http://myvidoop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)Now, I haven't yet mentioned [MyVidoop](http://myvidoop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), Vidoop's [much-loved](http://search.twitter.com/search?q=myvidoop&ref=chrismessina.me) consumer OpenID provider and browser-based password manager. That's largely because it too was deprioritized around the time of the first layoffs — kept alive on little more than life support. In some ways, the fate of myVidoop is both emblematic of the lack of focus and thorough execution that I believe contributed greatly to the fall of Vidoop, and remains one of the more problematic pieces of this story (more later). ### The beginning of the end This past March, I paid my own way to [SXSW](http://2009.sxsw.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Meanwhile, Vidoop picked up travel for Kveton (by now some kind of VP of Engineering Open Technologies), Sontag, [Matt Selbie](http://www.linkedin.com/pub/matthew-selbie/2/215/38a?ref=chrismessina.me) (VP of Marketing), and [Scott Blomquist](http://scott.blomqui.st/?ref=chrismessina.me) (CTO) who all shacked up in some [sweet pad](http://www.flickr.com/photos/tulsamatt/3360239129/?ref=chrismessina.me) somewhere outside downtown Austin. [](http://bacn.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)At [BarCampAustin](http://www.barcamp.org/BarCampAustin?ref=chrismessina.me), Kveton [presented on](http://www.shizzow.com/shouts/18790?ref=chrismessina.me) [Bacn.com](http://bacn.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), a scrappy side-project [he'd launched](http://www.mrbaconpants.com/bacon-enthusiasts-open-an-online-bacn-store/?ref=chrismessina.me) with Richardson that — get this — *sells real bacon* — and that [took off with a life of its own](http://www.mrbaconpants.com/scott-kveton-the-man-that-spells-bacon-bacn/?ref=chrismessina.me). Turned out Vidoop didn't take too kindly to Kveton telling the story of Bacn when he apparently should have been pimping their tech. Upon returning to Portland, he found out that he'd been fired. This was — for me as I'm sure for others — the beginning of the end. Since Kveton had been helping to coordinate my work on the Vidoop side of things, I lost my representative at the company. Though I kept in close contact with a number of the developers, I ended up busying myself with speaking, traveling, and evangelizing OpenID on the road. And then came the rumblings of financial problems. On April 15, I received word that the company was about to close a major round of funding — and just in time, too, because Vidoop had failed to make payroll. Two days later — April 17 — I was in Sebastopol at [Social Web FOO Camp](http://swfoo09.pbworks.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) when I received a phone call from Wiley Parsons, Vidoop's CTO, with instructions to cut up my company credit card. My first thought was that Vidoop had been sold, an idea later dismissed. To this day, I'm still not entirely sure what happened, but it was obvious that things were being kept together with chewing gum and shoelaces, threatening to split apart at any moment. ### The final straw On May 11, I was in Paris in the middle of a trip bookended by speaking engagements in Hamburg and Belgium. Luke messaged me, requesting that I call him ASAP. When I did, it turned out that Vidoop was out of money, unable to make payroll again. All but a skeleton crew remained. Luke assured me that he was going to keep fighting — attempting to sign some final deals to save the company. He promised to share more information by the end of the week but the only public statement that's been made to date was [a mealy-mouth blog post](http://blog.vidoop.com/2009/05/company-update/?ref=chrismessina.me) with no discernibly useful information whatsoever. Two weeks later, Joel sent out what appeared to be heartfelt last rites for the company, again lacking any actionable information. A day later he clarified things, posting to Vidoop alumni mailing list that, "Vidoop LLC is officially out of business. Unfortunately, there are no funds to pay the unpaid wages or other liabilities." This was the memo that [leaked to TechCrunch](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/05/30/vidoop-is-dead-employees-getting-computers-in-lieu-of-wages/?ref=chrismessina.me). During the last two weeks of May, there were two parallel tracks of activity — segmented into those left fighting for whatever was left of the company — and [those](http://twitter.com/Siedenburg/status/1778491102?ref=chrismessina.me) who'd been [laid off](http://twitter.com/maxheadwound/status/1888598601?ref=chrismessina.me). The unemployed[struggled to find new work](http://twitter.com/robotadam/status/1777067088?ref=chrismessina.me), attempted to secure new Visas, grappled with the arcane unemployment and [healthcare](http://twitter.com/kveton/statuses/1918891016?ref=chrismessina.me) [systems](http://twitter.com/stechz/status/1926658552?ref=chrismessina.me), and tried to pry more information from the company; others called it quits and moved back to Tulsa. Those left fighting for the company — Luke, Blomquist, and Selbie — have provided strange accounts of what they're doing to try to rescue the firm or — apparently — [start something new](http://blog.oregonlive.com/siliconforest/2009/06/catching%5Fup%5Fon%5Fvidoop.html?ref=chrismessina.me). There's been no public acknowledgement of the situation, either on the [company blog](http://blog.vidoop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) or on Twitter, save for this [melodramatic post](http://twitter.com/vidoop/status/1983717119?ref=chrismessina.me) (presumably from Luke): "dead, no. bloody, yes. still got fight left. details soon..." The media and wider community have been left to their own devices (and Arrington's original post) to [fill in](http://oregonbusiness.com/robin/1718-another-one-bites-the-dust?ref=chrismessina.me) [the](http://ostatic.com/blog/vidoop-goes-ten-rounds-with-grim-reaper?ref=chrismessina.me) [blanks](http://siliconflorist.com/2009/05/30/vidoop/?ref=chrismessina.me). With [no information forthcoming](http://twitter.com/rogoway/status/2032062718?ref=chrismessina.me) from the company, it's impossible to know what to plan for, or what the [fate of services like MyVidoop](http://spreadopenid.org/2009/05/31/myvidoop-is-dead/?ref=chrismessina.me) will be. ### OpenID, myVidoop and unfulfilled promises I'm writing this post not because I'm bitter — most startups fail and I knew this when I joined the company — but because the lack of information coming from Vidoop has been irresponsibly minimal — both publicly and privately. Vidoop has failed to speak clearly and consistently to the community that it pledged to serve and secure, and it has failed to produce definitive information for the staff that risked much and poured themselves into the company. The failure of Vidoop was a failure of business and focus, not technology. It's as simple as that. And yet, with the company out of business, those responsible for communicating clearly and transparently about the health of the company are failing to do so. This is bad for several reasons. Among them: 1. First, those who continue to use MyVidoop have not been told what's going on or planned for the service, and can therefore not make an informed decision about whether they should continue using the service. If they do — with the presumption that Vidoop is solvent — they may well end up locked out of not only their MyVidoop accounts, but also the accounts that MyVidoop holds the keys to. None of MyVidoop's [Terms and Conditions](https://myvidoop.com/help/tos?ref=chrismessina.me) mention the availability of backups or access to data should the service be shut down — nor does it state what will happen to the servers that house personal data should the company file for bankruptcy. These are questions that Vidoop needs to have answers for, along with advice for people that want to leave the service. In contrast, Yahoo has taken aggressive steps to notify people a full 60 days in advance of the pending closure of the [Yahoo! 360](http://360.yahoo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) service, providing [guidance](http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/360/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [tools to export user data](http://download.360.yahoo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). I discussed the fate of MyVidoop with Scott Blomquist when I was in Portland for WebVisions. I implored him to issue some kind of public statement about the welfare of the MyVidoop service, but so far he has demurred. He has proposed running the service as a "community project" and has attempted to enlist the help of several ex-Vidoopers, but I'm not convinced that his plan will hold water. Besides the trademark issues wrapped up in continuing to use MyVidoop.com as an OpenID provider, there are various licensing fees associated with keeping the strong authentication services functioning (voice confirmation, SMS-verification); and, even if those services were turned off, running a high-security service as a community initiative just doesn't add up — not after all the fear-mongering that Vidoop does on [its Twitter account](http://twitter.com/vidoop?ref=chrismessina.me)! The responsible thing to do would be to announce the closure of the MyVidoop service in 30 days (if the servers can be kept running and secured for that amount of time); the "community project" idea should be scrapped in favor of building tools to export people's data, and if it's amenable to a company like [Janrain](http://www.janrain.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), the MyVidoop users could be invited to move their accounts to [MyOpenID.com](http://myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (presuming that Janrain has reasonable data back up, export retention policies!) Otherwise, keeping the service running longer will just invite catastrophe with no one on the payroll to deal with issues related to security or [uptime](http://twitter.com/vidoop/status/2017481675?ref=chrismessina.me). 2. Second, this whole situation paints a negative caricature of a member of the OpenID community. It's not the technology that isn't sound or market-worthy — it's that perception is oftentimes nine-tenths of the law. Vidoop's drawn out failure highlights the risk and importance of choosing a responsible identity provider — or of using delegation — the feature of OpenID that lets you use your own domain as your OpenID, but assigns someone else the responsibility of serving your identity. Vidoop's failure could be seen as a blight on the technology and community if people fail to recognize that the problem with Vidoop was not OpenID, but was the same thing that's caused countless other companies to fail: the inability to focus and execute in a consistent and thorough manner. To its credit, in its time, Vidoop assembled a cadre of highly talented and motivated folks who really did want to make their mark on the world, *the right way*. Projects like [Identity in the Browser](http://idib.googlecode.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ("IDIB"), [Emailtoid](http://emailtoid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [EAUT](http://eaut.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), VidoopConnect, and VidoopSecure exemplied solid and well-engineered solutions and proofs of concept that demonstrated an open, innovative approach to delivering secure solutions to the consumer web. To have those efforts sullied by the incongruous response from management is unfortunate and unfair. With so much promise, it seems sad that Vidoop could fall so far, so fast.**Update:** Scott Blomquist has [posted](http://blog.vidoop.com/2009/06/myvidoop-status/?ref=chrismessina.me) to the Vidoop blog, stating: > Despite the claims of others elsewhere on the internet, myVidoop will continue to run for the forseeable future. Those of us who are still at Vidoop are committing to give you at least 30 days' warning in the event that shutting down myVidoop becomes necessary. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Rick Turoczy](http://siliconflorist.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-05 15:52:15 Thank you for taking the time to do this, Messina. I really appreciate your perspective on this whole thing. As always, your level of openness about it makes the story all the more poignant. **Todd** ¡ 2009-06-05 15:58:10 I am surprised the "paid ad placement in the click on the picture thing" didn't work as a replacement for RE:CAPTCHA - I always thought that was a good idea. WTF? Weaksauce that you got jerked around as an employee, but whatever, I am positive you will get hired onto a new project Chris! **[Joe Holst](http://jyoseph.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-05 16:23:27 Um, I have what seems to be sort of a silly question. Is it common for companies (startups) to have their hand in so many different pots at the same time, pulling resources from one project (leaving it temporarily for dead) to start developing a new project? Second question, how in the world did you recall all of this? Impressive collection of facts to say the least. **[Jmartens](http://www.cityspeek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-05 17:41:47 Wow, GREAT writeup...I apprecaite all the detail that us outsiders haven't heard before. Best of luck to you... **[Nate Angell](http://xolotl.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-05 18:01:15 Thanks for this post Chris...it really helped those of us in Portland understand better what happened with Vidoop. I blogged a [short reaction](http://xolotl.org/xolotl/fall-vidoop?ref=chrismessina.me). **[SpookyET](http://spookyet.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-05 18:49:03 This is very unfortunate. I have written a lengthy blog on how passwords are stupid and praised MyVidoop as the OpenID service to get. I really like the idea of no passwords. I hope they can turn it into a community site. It seems that they have failed to remember 'Keep It Simple Stupid' and 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.' My lengthy post is still valid, even if MyVidoop dies, but I'll surely miss it. http://spookyet.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/passwords-are-stupid/ **[Adam Lowry](http://adam.therobots.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-05 19:11:16 Thanks for the kind words. I'm still incredibly proud of VidoopConnect; I joked recently that it was the best software I've ever worked on that nobody wanted. I think you being remote did give a different perspective on a few points. I think the choice to use Python in the VidoopSecure project was a good one. It wasn't a re-write, but a new product, and it didn't make sense to use the existing tools -- for that team it wouldn't have been a switch from PHP but a switch from C++, which would have been madness. It did add a bit of lead time, but with the virtues of hindsight it a couple months didn't affect its business prospects. In any case, thanks for writing this up. Although we didn't work closely often, your insight made everything you touched better for users. Hopefully I'll see you next time you're in Portland. **[The Dude Dean](http://www.twitter.com/TheDudeDean?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-05 20:15:39 WOW, what a nightmare man. **[Colin Henderson](http://thebankwatch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-05 21:34:37 Thanks for this Chris. Its not unusual for startups to fail, but when there is an element of obscurity/ non transparency/ that is worthwhile raising. Good luck with your own endevours. **[Rotkapchen](http://www.fastforwardblog.com/?author%5Fname=pthornton&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-05 22:23:33 While the details are different, the hype-cycle and the results sound oh-too-much like the dot-flops of a decade ago. Thanks for capturing another piece of history for posterity. **[John A Arkansawyer](http://www.arkansawyer.com/wordpress/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-06 04:15:24 Chris, I'm curious about something in particular: What impact would staying in Tulsa have had? I know I lost track of Vidoop after they left the neighborhood, and I was greatly disappointed that they'd left. From my time in Tulsa (working there twice and spending time with relatives there all my life), I'd say it's one of the nicest cities of its size: Two fine museums, an opera company, beautiful Art Deco architecture, low cost of living. If a startup can't stay there, where can it stay? **damon** ¡ 2009-06-06 05:22:59 I read this as a tech guy who thinks the technology was all perfect, and management screwed up. In other words, the other guys fault. This was doomed from the beginning, rev share on ads during authentication? to support a team of 40 people? I'll bet total revenue for the entire lifetime of this company could not have paid the salary for 5 people for a year. **[Kevin Fox](http://trustsustech.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-06 21:49:28 excellent post Chris! I agree this would have been better to hear from Vidoop officially but you cant always get what you want. I think the main problem with Vidoop was a total lack of product focus. You can not have a mantra of 'lets throw it against the wall and see if it sticks' if each thing you are throwing against the wall is taking up non-trivial amounts of valuable time, taxing already strained resources and not being marketed and promoted properly. Vidoop was a well funded internet playground that had real potential, if it's products/services had been promoted to the correct audience... just my two cents. **[Gary Walter](http://daddytude.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-06 23:10:34 I quit using Vidoop several months ago. I'm glad to see that once again my intuition paid off. **[Brian](http://briandewitt.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-07 00:11:56 Thanks for writing this. Its inspired me to right about the successful failure of a company. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-07 09:42:48 [John A Arkansawyer](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/06/05/the-fall-of-vidoop/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-105721): To your question: I do think that having representatives in Portland and on the West Coast made sense for Vidoop. Honestly, the deal flow is typically better in those environs for tech startups — and there's a more vibrant community to provide inspiration, ideas and a source of talent. However, the slow burn of being in Tulsa was something to be considered — the costs of the west coast are high — and for a startup with a fairly large number of employees, might have been a better environment to keep people on the job without incurring higher human resources costs. It's hard to say that any one thing lead to the Vidoop's demise — and I'm not sure that it was geography alone that accelerated the fall. I do think that the team was settling in a making progress rather quickly after arriving in Portland, but I think that the focus on the move throughout the summer, and the layoffs that came shortly after arriving as possible fallout of the global recession, couldn't have helped things. And from there it was just a matter of not focusing, laser-like, on solving a specific set problems and then communicating the value of those solutions to the market place. I do think that startups need to be nimble and responsive to what's happening around them. But I also think that you have to actually develop something to a point of completion and market readiness — before moving on to the next thing, imaging that your earlier efforts weren't a success. Especially on the web these days, I actually think that long-term, built out relationships can mean more to one's success than a flashy marketing campaign (in contrast). Therefore, any product will need something like six months to get off the ground, after you drop version 1.0 in the wild. As I like to say, the real work doesn't start until you launch 1.0\. Unfortunately, I don't think Vidoop really produced that many 1.0's given all the things they attempted. And they certainly didn't live with a product for the full six months, giving it all they had and making constant, iterative improvements based on feedback they were getting. As a result, they ended up with a number of semi-complete products that all needed to be maintained simultaneously (none were ever shut down, though a few, like the Identity in the Browser project, never really got off the ground), leading to a death by a thousand cuts, just as the dev team seemed to be gelling. I'd love to hear from other Vidoopers on what their thoughts are, since I was mostly remote throughout my year with the company. There's definitely things that I've missed or didn't see, but the best I can do is tell it like I see it. **[Tony Haile](http://tonyhaile.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-07 11:13:37 I remember being in awe of the depth of tech talent that Vidoop had been able to coalesce, a sense that only increased as I met more of the team. I think that this is a clear lesson for business types like me (I believe we're technically referred to as 'unskilled labour') about the importance of focusing on the fundamentals of startup life. We can collect the greatest rock stars and give the shiniest pitches with energy and enthusiasm, but it's the drudgery of focus and financing that will be our lasting contributions to any company. A cautionary tale... **[Kevin Fox](http://trustustech.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-07 13:56:40 @gwalter please enlighten us as to what that intuition was? You seem to know alot... **[Jason Grlicky](http://ineedtoreadthis.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-07 16:45:36 I may have been the last ex-Vidooper to read it, but I have to say I really appreciate you posting this! It great to have something to direct my non-Vidoop friends and family to. **[SpookyET](http://spookyet.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-07 17:33:13 So, what's the alternative? Will it be, MyOpenID, ClaimID, VeriSign PIP, MyID? I am aware that there are a million and half OpenID providers out there, but none I trust to last long, and most are crappy. VeriSign seems to be the only one that matches Vidoop in security, but it has a horrible interface and a long URL. MyID with sweet and short URL, but complicated with address book and other rubbish as if I care what my mate's OpenID url is. ClaimID are thinking of going commercial and charging for value-added services. They are also thinking of having someone else provide security. The interface is somewhat busy. They seem as wishy-washy as Vidoop. MyOpenID will never die unless OpenID dies. It's the http://www.janrain.com/ pet project. The interface could be improved. It's kind of crappy around the edges. Facebook, Google, Yahoo don't allow control over the information more than Yes/No as I said in my article, 'Passwords are Stupid' http://spookyet.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/passwords-are-stupid/ **[Gyuri Grell](http://gyurigrell.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-09 07:01:09 I had been using Verisign's PIP as my first OpenID provider, which I originally chose because they aren't likely to disappear anytime soon. Then I found MyVidoop, I really started using it because I liked all the features they have, esp. the Firefox plugin with autofill/save passwords and fields. It also helped that they hired you. It is unfortunate to see that something that works so well be so mismanaged. Thanks to you, I now know about delegation which makes it far more convenient to switch. **Tim O'Pry** ¡ 2009-06-11 15:43:34 Thank you for taking the time to relay this interesting and personally painful story. We were in the process of licensing the Vidoop product when the wheels came off the bus. Fortunately, the contract was not yet signed - and we are still looking at alternatives. I do think you had an exceptional product, something all Vidoopers can be proud of. I wish all of you the best in your next endeavors. Here's hoping someone will realize the value in the IP you created and breathe new life into the project. **easilyamused** ¡ 2009-09-03 05:14:44 I just wandered over http://scott.kveton.com's blog (he comes across as more than just a little bit of douche here) and was amused to see http://kveton.com/blog/2008/07/23/congrats-to-chris-messina was posted after this post. My favourite netdrama is still http://waxy.org/random/arsdigita. **[Brynn Marie Evans » The failure of MyFarm: good intentions, poor execution](http://brynnevans.com/blog/2009/10/28/the-failure-of-myfarm-good-intentions-poor-execution/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-10-28 12:13:02 \[...\] until they unexpectedly laid off their entire team this past April. They ran out of money and time pursuing shiny things, and kept their fiscal situation a secret up until they announced that they couldn’t make \[...\] **[Portland’s rollercoaster year: Recapping the 2009 startup scene and looking forward to 2010 « Silicon Florist](http://siliconflorist.com/2010/01/04/portland-rollercoaster-year-recapping-the-2009-startup-scene-and-looking-forward-2010/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-04 15:10:04 \[...\] company that likely wouldn’t have come into existence without the aforementioned fall of Vidoop. And huge events that came from nothing but the sheer exertion of will, like Open Source Bridge and \[...\] **[Dan Fost](http://www.danfost.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-02-05 14:24:55 Chris, belated congrats on this post, and big congrats and good luck in the new gig at Google. I hope to catch up with you one of these days. MyVidoop still seems to work, after all this time, although the plugin no longer works on Firefox. Is there a way to port the information stored there to any of the surviving OpenID services? I'm inclined to go with myOpenID.com but would love to not have to re-enter everything. **[The Incredible Story of Scott Kveton: Linux, Firefox, Bacon & iPhones](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/the%5Fincredible%5Flife%5Fof%5Fscott%5Fkveton%5Flinux%5Ffirefox.php?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-02-16 17:14:38 \[...\] According to OpenID community leader and now Google employee Chris Messina, though, the company fired Kveton months earlier, for going to South by Southwest on its dime but actually speaking at the event about…selling \[...\] **[If Twitter killed bloglines will facebook connect kill OpenID? | The Mouse's cradle](http://mousecradle.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/facebook-killed-the-internet-star/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-10-29 17:26:28 \[...\] this is/was a service offered by a company called Vidoop that, as it seems, died – largely unannounced and at some later point bought/reincarnated in another company called \[...\] ### Michael Moore's advice to Obama on General Motors URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/michael-moores-advice-to-obama-on-general-motors-2/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:29.000Z [](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009YXAS?ie=UTF8&tag=factorycity-20&link%5Fcode=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=B00009YXAS&ref=chrismessina.me)[Michael Moore](http://www.michaelmoore.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is a [polarizing figure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael%5FMoore?ref=chrismessina.me) with a mild-mannered way of suggesting some rather far-fetched, ultra-liberal ideas. I find myself often feeling swayed by his emphaticness but more often than not, unconvinced by the logic of his arguments. That said, he does from time to time incite a good deal of discourse and discussion, and on the cusp of the [bankruptcy of General Motors](http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/01/news/companies/gm%5Fbankruptcy/index.htm?postversion=2009060114&ref=chrismessina.me), he sent around[ his suggestions to Barack Obama](http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=248&ref=chrismessina.me) on what should be done with the company, and so I thought I'd reproduce his nine points here, since I largely agree with them: > Just as President Roosevelt did after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the President must tell the nation that we are at war and we must immediately convert our auto factories to factories that build mass transit vehicles and alternative energy devices. Within months in Flint in 1942, GM halted all car production and immediately used the assembly lines to build planes, tanks and machine guns. The conversion took no time at all. Everyone pitched in. The fascists were defeated. We are now in a different kind of war -- a war that we have conducted against the ecosystem and has been conducted by our very own corporate leaders. This current war has two fronts. One is headquartered in Detroit. The products built in the factories of GM, Ford and Chrysler are some of the greatest weapons of mass destruction responsible for global warming and the melting of our polar icecaps. The things we call "cars" may have been fun to drive, but they are like a million daggers into the heart of Mother Nature. To continue to build them would only lead to the ruin of our species and much of the planet. The other front in this war is being waged by the oil companies against you and me. They are committed to fleecing us whenever they can, and they have been reckless stewards of the finite amount of oil that is located under the surface of the earth. They know they are sucking it bone dry. And like the lumber tycoons of the early 20th century who didn't give a damn about future generations as they tore down every forest they could get their hands on, these oil barons are not telling the public what they know to be true -- that there are only a few more decades of useable oil on this planet. And as the end days of oil approach us, get ready for some very desperate people willing to kill and be killed just to get their hands on a gallon can of gasoline. President Obama, now that he has taken control of GM, needs to convert the factories to new and needed uses immediately.Don't put another $30 billion into the coffers of GM to build cars. Instead, use that money to keep the current workforce -- and most of those who have been laid off -- employed so that they can build the new modes of 21st century transportation. Let them start the conversion work now.Announce that we will have bullet trains criss-crossing this country in the next five years. Japan is celebrating the 45th anniversary of its first bullet train this year. Now they have dozens of them. Average speed: 165 mph. Average time a train is late: under 30 seconds. They have had these high speed trains for nearly five decades -- and we don't even have one! The fact that the technology already exists for us to go from New York to L.A. in 17 hours by train, and that we haven't used it, is criminal. Let's hire the unemployed to build the new high speed lines all over the country. Chicago to Detroit in less than two hours. Miami to DC in under 7 hours. Denver to Dallas in five and a half. This can be done and done now.Initiate a program to put light rail mass transit lines in all our large and medium-sized cities. Build those trains in the GM factories. And hire local people everywhere to install and run this system.For people in rural areas not served by the train lines, have the GM plants produce energy efficient clean buses.For the time being, have some factories build hybrid or all-electric cars (and batteries). It will take a few years for people to get used to the new ways to transport ourselves, so if we're going to have automobiles, let's have kinder, gentler ones. We can be building these next month (do not believe anyone who tells you it will take years to retool the factories -- that simply isn't true).Transform some of the empty GM factories to facilities that build windmills, solar panels and other means of alternate forms of energy. We need tens of millions of solar panels right now. And there is an eager and skilled workforce who can build them.Provide tax incentives for those who travel by hybrid car or bus or train. Also, credits for those who convert their home to alternative energy.To help pay for this, impose a two-dollar tax on every gallon of gasoline. This will get people to switch to more energy saving cars or to use the new rail lines and rail cars the former autoworkers have built for them.Well, that's a start. Please, please, please don't save GM so that a smaller version of it will simply do nothing more than build Chevys or Cadillacs. This is not a long-term solution. Don't throw bad money into a company whose tailpipe is malfunctioning, causing a strange odor to fill the car. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Phil Nelson](http://extrafuture.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-01 18:04:30 The trains thing still boggles me, how can America honestly not have a decent cross-country rail service at this stage? It's so very strange. I'm all far super fast, efficient, trains. **[Luke Shepard](http://www.sociallipstick.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-01 19:36:34 Nice post Chris. I'm about to go to Japan. I'm excited but I suspect it will just make me jealous. Some more thoughts on the possibility of Michael Moore's wacky ideas: http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/01/bye-bye-general-motors-hello-again-general-locomotives/ **Marshall** ¡ 2009-06-01 23:05:39 "To help pay for this, impose a two-dollar tax on every gallon of gasoline" This one is so misplaced for me it ruined the rest of the ponts. Rising gas prices were a huge catalyst to onset of recession. Agreed that they stimulated discussions about more fuel effecient cars, etc but at a huge, huge economic cost. Moore's arguments always seem about 35% thought out. **[jomar](http://www.jomarhilario.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-01 23:15:47 Japan as they say shows the future of the world. And the future is bright and full of anime!! Land area is the US is too big to be compared to japan though but Moore's right! Perhaps the best thing to happen to the US is the crash of a big company like this -if only it will open up new alternatives to travel. However i fear that this is wishful thinking on Moore's part. Obama is going to rescue GM to put money back into GM's owner's pockets but he's not going to change that company. You think the "change we can believe in" is true right now - after he's elected? We shall see. But I'm not keeping my hopes up but I do hope to be proven WRONG. Jomar **Grover** ¡ 2009-06-02 06:15:44 "This one is so misplaced for me it ruined the rest of the ponts." Agreed. A two dollar per gallon hike in gas would put an immediate and painful strain on just about every middle-class budget. We were having to make hard decisions at 3+ dollars a gallon. 5+ would be a disaster. It's often hard for people like Moore to remember that the majority of the country does not live in a major metropolitan area where public and alternative transportation make sense. **ron** ¡ 2009-06-02 08:49:58 how are gas taxes a catalyst for recession? somehow the rest of the civilized world has had high gas prices for years thanks to gas taxes yet that didnt spur a recession in those countries. the bad thing about gas taxes is that they are regressive. how about we not build any new major roads like they want to do in houston, and instead just fix the ones that already exist. **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-02 15:35:56 Unfortunately, this makes far too much sense for any government to actually implement it :) **k0an** ¡ 2009-06-02 16:18:42 17 hours to go from NY to LA would... suck! I can make that trip in 5 hours for $260 (current kayak.com pricing) via plane. Incredibly long train trips don't make much sense when it's affordable and radically faster to fly. I think the distances that make sense are those that take about 2-4 hours by high speed train. Short flights aren't actually that short because of the time it takes for all the pre-flight red tape at the airport. If getting on a high speed train takes merely minutes then it will be faster than planes for short distances (500 miles or less). If they could rework the US flight grid to only focus on medium to long distance flights and high speed trains for short distances that would be the best of both worlds. **Doug** ¡ 2009-06-03 05:55:30 I think if you stacked all the bullet trains build in Japan since the 1964 Olympics end to end they wouldn't reach from Los Angeles to New York. Japan is the size of California, and most areas don't have bullet train access. Japan is able to have some really nice rail and subway transport because the population is so concentrated into a few small areas. Plus, people here will walk 15 minutes or more to and from the stations. And live in small houses, apartments, and condos, so that the necessary population density can be achieved. **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-03 09:22:36 @k0an The point is not that you would go from NY to LA, but that train across said distance could service everything \*between\* NY and LY **k0an** ¡ 2009-06-03 09:31:50 @Stephen Paul Weber - That's one way of interpreting what Mr. Moore meant to say, but I think that's giving him too much credit. Why would he mention how long the trip would take if he wasn't trying to propose it as a valid trip? Was he just spouting out random numbers? **nickgark** ¡ 2009-06-07 04:32:34 I'd like to raise a point of information re: Ron's comments on gas prices. I live in the UK, and we're used to petrol prices that are now around GBP1.00 per litre - about USD6.00 per US gallon. From the UK perspective, petrol prices of less than USD5.00 per US gallon look more like a luxury than a disaster. **BabsCakc** ¡ 2009-06-10 09:50:04 Is flying really cheaper? I don't know the real costs of transport in the US. Who pays for roads? Are they all toll roads or does general tax fund them? Aviation fuel in Europe appears cheaper, but that's only because it's not taxed, unlike other fuels. **Ken** ¡ 2009-06-11 09:12:49 I liked your comment about the oil people fleecing us. However, just to play devil's advocate; that sludge comes out of the ground and has to be put through billions of dollars of equipment and refinery apparatus to be usable, then shipped halfway around the world. For this we pay (now) approximately $2.65 a gallon. Our own American farmers take milk from their cows. To be usable for safe human consumption it has to be boiled, thats all. They then have it packaged, truck it to the the next county and stock the store shelves. For this privelege we pay $3.50 a gallon and up. I honestly ask you: WHO is fleecing us more?? ### Stowe Boyd launches Microsyntax.org URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/stowe-boyd-launches-microsyntax-org/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:28.000Z ![hash](http://img.skitch.com/20090526-j1xsmn1qyrdf8kkm48q2ap8uxw.png) [Stowe Boyd](http://www.stoweboyd.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [launched](http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/2009/05/microsyntaxorg-microsyntaxorg-a-messifesto.html?ref=chrismessina.me) [Microsyntax.org](http://www.microsyntax.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) this morning and announced that I will be [the first member of his advisory board](http://www.microsyntax.org/post/113313362/chris-messina-to-serve-as-first-advisory-board-member?ref=chrismessina.me). Stowe and I have batted around a number of ideas for making posts on Twitter contain more information than what is superficially presented, and this new effort should create a space in which ideas, research, proposals and experiments can be made and discussed. Ultimately, my hope is that Microsyntax.org will reach beyond Twitter and provide a forum for thinking through how we encapsulate data in channels that don't natively support metadata by using conventions that *express* as much meaning as much as they *encode*. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1236839235/?ref=chrismessina.me)Since I [originally proposed hashtags](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/08/25/groups-for-twitter-or-a-proposal-for-twitter-tag-channels/?ref=chrismessina.me) in August of 2007, I've thought a lot about what these conventions mean, and [how wide adoption of something can radically elevate the field of competition](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/05/18/the-open-social-web/?ref=chrismessina.me). There is a similar opportunity here, where, if the discourse is developed properly, such conventions can actually enable a greater range of expression over narrow channels, allowing for wider participation in and understanding of conversations. Take, for instance, Stowe's "[GeoSlash](http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/2009/05/a-modest-proposal-for-more-microstructure-location.html?ref=chrismessina.me)" (as [christened](http://twitter.com/stoweboyd/status/1906222662/?ref=chrismessina.me) by [Ross Mayfield](http://ross.typepad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) proposal. Whether his syntax is the right one (or even necessary!) isn't something that can be argued rationally. It's only something that can be investigated through experimentation and observation. To this point, there has been no central convening context in which such a proposal could be brought up, debated, discussed, considered, tinkered with, improved, championed and evaluated. As a result, countless [proposals](http://www.twine.com/item/129ybjtsj-122/real-time-syndication-of-semantic-objects-using-twitter?ref=chrismessina.me) have [been made](http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/2009/03/at-sxsw-attendees-confront-twitter-saturation-webware---cnet.html?ref=chrismessina.me) for [baking](http://luebken.com/?p=139&ref=chrismessina.me) [more](http://twitterdata.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) "[meta](http://microformats.org/wiki/microblogging-nanoformats?ref=chrismessina.me)" into Twitter's data stream, but [few](http://stocktwits.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) have really taken off (compared with the relative success of [hashtags](http://twitter.pbworks.com/Hashtags?ref=chrismessina.me) and @replies). While I'm sympathetic to arguments (and pleas!) [against adding additional structure or formatting to tweets](http://thenextweb.com/2009/05/25/no-additional-twitter-meta-tags/?ref=chrismessina.me), I think that the bigger opportunity here extends beyond Twitter (which is primarily a public broadcast channel) to other applications, regardless of whether they use Twitter as the message routing infrastructure or not. Indeed, given my recent (and very positive) experience where [@AlaskaAir](http://twitter.com/alaskaair?ref=chrismessina.me) [checked me in to my flight over Twitter](http://twitter.com/chrismessina/status/1862770518?ref=chrismessina.me), you can imagine an opportunity developing where, say, [forward-thinking](http://twitter.com/virginamerica?ref=chrismessina.me) [airlines](http://twitter.com/jetblue?ref=chrismessina.me) actually collaborate to develop a syntax for expressing checkin requests via some sort of direct SMS-based channel. The situation of multiple competing-yet-overlapping SMS syntaxes lead me, somewhat mockingly, to start documenting what I called "[picoformats](http://picoformats.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)". If I've learned anything from the [microformats process](http://microformats.org/wiki/process?ref=chrismessina.me), it's that anyone can invent a schema or a format, **but getting adoption is the hard part (and also the most valuable)**. So, in order to promote adoption, you should always try to model behavior that *already* exists in the wild, and then work to make the intensions of the behavior more clear, repeatable and memorable. Most microsyntax efforts fail to follow this process, and as a result, fail in the wild. Efforts that employ the scientific method tend to see more success: hashtags modeled the convention started by IRC channels and Jaiku ([Joshua Schachter](http://joshua.schachter.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) also [used the hash to denote tags](http://books.google.com/books?id=SUsRr93DRKEC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=hash+mark&source=bl&ots=muOKL4O4j%5F&sig=tevSsZ1%5FC47LySLlA76eTwTrDo4&hl=en&ei=oDocSpj9H4XAswOG6%5FSSDw&sa=X&oi=book%5Fresult&ct=result&resnum=2#PPA93,M1) in the early days of Delicious); the $ticker convention (from [StockTwits](http://stocktwits.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) follows how many financial trade publications denote stock symbols. And so on. So when it comes to proposing new behaviors that don't yet exist in the wild, I think that the Microsyntax.org project will be an excellent place to convene and host conversations and experiments, many of which will admittedly fail. But at minimum, there will be a record of what's been tried, what the thinking and goals were, and where, hopefully, some modest successes have been achieved. I'm looking forward to contributing to this effort and helping to stand up the community infrastructure with Stowe. While I'm not eager to see the Twitter stream polluted with characters intended only for computers, I think that there is still much explored ground in what can be accomplished through [modest modifications](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/23/making-the-most-of-hashtags/?ref=chrismessina.me) of the way that we communicate over these kinds of narrow, unidimensional channels. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Nate Ritter](http://blog.perfectspace.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-26 11:51:49 I wish I had more intelligent things to say other than I fully concur. Specifically, the idea that execution of ideas in the wild because of lack of adoption is why they ultimately fail. That's true both in the context you're talking about here as well as business in general. This is where I insert Eric Ries' name and jump the shark. I'm glad you're on that board Chris. Keep up the good work/advocacy. **[Odin Omdal Hørthe / Velmont](http://tech.velmont.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-26 12:00:54 Remember that Laconica is a possible test bed for much of it. And the whole Identi.ca community is technical and quick uptakers of stuff. For people-testing :-) **[Michael Lewkowitz](http://igniter.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-26 12:18:12 Great post Chris and like the approach. I also think what we need to consider is that what's actually emerging is a new medium based on public micro-messages. Not only is this medium leading to the real-time web but it with its 'micro' and 'public' attributes it has the potential to be the most accessible and participatory public medium in history. While most attention has been on the commercial application which is beginning to deliver on some practical use cases, the potential for social impact is huge. There is a big opportunity to consider this in the early stages of protocol, standards, and infrastructure and keep an eye to optimizing it for public benefit. This goes squarely back to the spirit with which the web was created and the greatest need the web can serve tomorrow. **[Todd Fast](http://twitterdata.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-26 15:53:06 Decent post, Chris. I also look forward to microsyntax.org as a means for furthering the discussion. You mention adoption as the critical factor in success, and I agree. But there are many barriers to adoption, not just going against what people do. The history of technology is that people change what they do when a technology allows them to do something they could not do before. Though I think there are a number of reasons for the failure of many (most?) microformats, one certainly has to be the fact that they are all complex, one-off efforts with few underlying technical themes. As an implementer of any application that might consume a microformat, I have to weigh the implementation cost with the value. Unfortunately, it hasn't been demonstrated that most microformats provide enough value to end users to justify that work. On the other hand (and not discounting the nightmare that it can be), XML makes it easy for applications to consume arbitrary data. Interpreting that data is certainly another problem that is complex on its own (e.g. understanding an XML Schema document or a WSDL), but at least getting an application to read the data and turn it into an abstract representation is trivial. Once applications can easily consume data--and the easier the better--one significant barrier to adoption is removed and the opportunity for users to find value opens up. The ability to embed arbitrary, structured data in message streams, on Twitter et al., IM, SMS, email, and beyond, is unquestionably useful, and the way this is done has to be easy and useful to both application providers and end users. This is exactly the reason why I and several others have proposed the Twitter Data specification (http://twitterdata.org), with the goal of providing a formal means for embedding arbitrary data in Twitter messages in a way that works nicely for people and machines, in a way that is searchable, and a way that is open enough to build higher-level constructs on top (e.g. semantic triples). Without this formality, it's a free-for-all, and implementation of any particular micro-/nano-/pico- format is increasingly unlikely. **[David Horn](http://raconteuring.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-26 21:41:39 Interesting, and I can only agree, since adding more structure to tweets makes data mining easier. Something worth pointing out is that # and @ got their start when the service was still rather young and most users were technologically affluent. Disseminating structs throughout the system, I think, will be much harder now, though I'm sure you've considered this. Maybe if you got Ashton Kutcher to adopt new microsyntax... I'm very curious about how you plan to evaluate the success of proposals. I'd love to get into a deeper discussion on that sometime. **[Bruce Sterling](http://www.wired.com/sterling?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-27 00:38:43 I will be following these efforts with keen interest. **[tatahasa yen](http://twitter.com/tatahasa?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-30 21:10:56 Looking forward ur update, hoping learn more from anything of you **[New microsyntax for Twitter: three pointers and the slasher « LocalLab : Foire aux Infos](http://locallab.wordpress.com/2009/11/14/new-microsyntax-for-twitter-three-pointers-and-the-slasher/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-14 01:10:55 \[...\] and invite you to do so as well when it makes sense. If you have your own ideas for microsyntax, Stowe Boyd started a wiki a while back to document them, so feel free to contribute your own or improve or use the ones already proposed! \[...\] ### The open, social web URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-open-social-web/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:31.000Z I was in Europe for the past week and half, ending up in Leuven, Belgium to speak at the [Twiist.be](http://twiist.be/?ref=chrismessina.me) conference. The topic of [my talk](http://www.twiist.be/speakers/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me) was "[The Open, Social Web](slideshare.net/factoryjoe/the-open-social-web)." ([PDF](http://www.slideshare.net/factoryjoe/the-open-social-web/download?ref=chrismessina.me)) [http://static.slidesharecdn.com/swf/ssplayerd.swf?doc=thedisoproject-090515121321-phpapp02&rel=0&stripped\_title=the-open-social-web](http://static.slidesharecdn.com/swf/ssplayerd.swf?doc=thedisoproject-090515121321-phpapp02&rel=0&stripped%5Ftitle=the-open-social-web&ref=chrismessina.me) At first I struggled to develop a compelling or sensible narrative for the talk — as there is so much to it that I could probably give a dozen or more 45 minutes talks on the subject. With some long-distance encouragement from [Brynn](http://brynnevans.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), I eventually arrived at the topic I wanted to cover that lead to a conclusion that has largely been implicit in my work so far. My first priority was to establish that Web 2.0 is not only still the defining paradigm of this period, but that its core assertions are only now beginning to be realized and that much work still remains. Indeed, [Tim O'Reilly's](http://tim.oreilly.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) original intention with "[Web 2.0](http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/news/2005/09/30/what-is-web-20.html?ref=chrismessina.me)" was to encourage open source developers to begin to see the web as a platform — and to move beyond "[the page metaphor of Web 1.0 to deliver rich user experiences](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2005/10/web-20-compact-definition.html?ref=chrismessina.me)." Considering Tim O'Reilly's [advocacy of](http://tim.oreilly.com/opensource/index.csp?ref=chrismessina.me) and [publishing business largely founded on open source principles](http://tim.oreilly.com/values/index.csp?ref=chrismessina.me), his advocacy of Web 2.0 as a business revolution (a shift away from the personal desktop as the primary development platform) is significant. But what I think has gone missing is a coherent narrative or recasting of "open source" in the Web 2.0 era. After joining the Firefox movement, I learned the fundamentals of open source by reading "[Tim O'Reilly in a Nutshell](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NLBAX2?ie=UTF8&tag=factorycity-20&link%5Fcode=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=B000NLBAX2&ref=chrismessina.me)" ([PDF](http://oreilly.de/oreilly/oreilly%5Finanutshell.pdf?ref=chrismessina.me)). That book was never updated to capture how the principles of freedom of access and competitive and meritocratic marketplaces apply in the age of cloud computing. As Matt Asay [recently observed](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505%5F3-10238426-16.html?ref=chrismessina.me), gone are the days of the 'ideologues' ... "100-percent freedom" litmus test'. In other words, advocating for open source in the era of cloud computing is no longer sufficient to ensure the kind freedom that people like Richard Stallman sought. ![Thomas Jefferson](http://img.skitch.com/20090518-jgbqq8y7srjrfs2dumw9f9r8i1.png) Moreover, the term "open" itself is being debased, being used in [pop-marketing campaigns](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3370222531/?ref=chrismessina.me) to connote crowd-sourced and "conversationy" marketing — things that have nothing to do with the freedom desired by open source proponents. Thomas Jefferson (or [John Philpot Curran](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John%5FPhilpot%5FCurran?ref=chrismessina.me)) got it right when [he said](http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/2283?ref=chrismessina.me) that the "price of freedom is eternal vigilance." We can't fight for open if we don't have a [testable definition](http://twocroissants.wordpress.com/2009/03/21/%E2%80%9Copen%E2%80%9D-is-vague/?ref=chrismessina.me) of [what "open" means](http://www.laaker.com/micah/blog/2009/open13?ref=chrismessina.me). For me, openness is about freedom of choice and unfettered access to compete in an open marketplace. To that end, you still must protect against monopolistic threats, which can jeopardize entry to markets and therefore require regulation. Specifically, when I was in Paris, [Bertil Hatt](http://twocroissants.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) presented me with a few concepts from his Ph.D. work in economics that are necessary to defeat [monopolies in social networks](http://twocroissants.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/more-on-sns-monopoly/?ref=chrismessina.me) and cloud-based markets: - **data portability**: related to switching costs; an example of this is phone number portability (which require government intervention to achieve) - **multi-homing**: increasing reliability through parallelization; the example I used was [ping.fm](http://ping.fm/?ref=chrismessina.me), which allows you to publish content simultaneously to multiple destinations, thereby defeating network exclusivity and lock-in - **roaming**: have access to and using other people's networks; I showed [a text message](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3519306540/?ref=chrismessina.me) that I received from AT&T explaining how they wanted to charge me $20/MB while roaming in Europe. Clearly networks don't like it when their customers roam! - **disaggregation**: service substitutability; in this case the photo-editing service [Picnik](http://picnik.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) imports photos from a multitude of sources, avoiding tightly coupling itself an any one particular service, unlike Facebook's photo-sharing service, which can only be used and accessed on facebook.com. And so if these are some of the concepts that we can use to [arm ourselves in the fight for freedom and openness in the era of cloud computing](http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/07/open-source-and-cloud-computing.html?ref=chrismessina.me), the opportunity to define a [narrative](http://www.opencloudmanifesto.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and roadmap for "open cloud computing" emerges. In my view, success in this effort will resonate most widely on the social web, where we've simply not yet achieved the potential of open source ecosystem of social applications. Of course one of the challenges of making progress with developing the social web is that the web itself was originally conceived of as a means to share documents — not to express the manifestations of personal identity online. Had the web originally been designed to connect people with people, and not just documents, I think that the work of startups like [FriendFeed](http://friendfeed.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) would be occurring at a much higher layer of abstraction. Instead, FriendFeed is having to manually develop many of its own technologies to address this shortcoming in the architecture of the web, and chief among what's missing is a way to capture and express activities on the web — ostensibly the bread and butter of FriendFeed's offering. Historically, the feed formats common on the web today (namely RSS and ATOM) were designed to express and capture what was common at the time of their creation: blog posts. And so all kinds of data are syndicated in these formats, but without semantic hooks that express who the actor was, what the object of the activity was, and what it was they did that resulted in or affected the object. [](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)It's holes like these that [gave rise](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/01/23/the-existential-diso-interview/?ref=chrismessina.me) to the [Diso Project](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me): an effort to facilitate the creation of and adoption of building blocks (i.e. formats and protocols) for the social web. Though I revise the list from time to time, the fundamental components of the Diso Project have largely remained consistent: 1. identity and profile 2. discovery and access control 3. contacts and friends 4. activity streams 5. messaging 6. groupings and shared spaces Of course, the project will only be considered successful if the formats and protocols developed are widely adopted: *a standard in practice is worth more than a standard in theory*. Moreover, by commoditizing certain fundamental features, service providers will move to compete on the level of user experience and service, rather than on lock-in alone. And in the distributed social model of the web, there is nothing more fundamental than establishing a means of expressing durable, cross-site identity. [](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)It is my contention that **the individual is the basic atomic unit of society**, and without society you can't get to acting on the "social" layer. And since change only can begin at the scale of the individual, [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) must occupy a cornerstone of the open, social web. We're beginning to see many more signs that real identity is something that people desire online — that having an online presence isn't just for geeks and real estate agents anymore. People who want to connect with friends, family, long-lost school friends — and everyone and anything else — are coming online in droves to set up a digital presence. In one example, I walked through the process of adding a friend on Facebook that the service recommended to me. Sure I could recognize my friend's face and name — but was it really them? Through the magic of the social graph — and more importantly, the fact that so many of our mutual friends had let aspects of their real life identity slip into the digital public — I was able to confirm that, yes, this was the person that I thought it might be, because these were people that we were likely to both know. Only a few years ago, this kind of social context was not available online because people had not yet become comfortable — **or seen the value of** — setting up a profile online — a process that I believe is a form of modern self-actualization, straight out of [Maslow's hierarchy of needs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's%5Fhierarchy%5Fof%5Fneeds?ref=chrismessina.me). One consequence is that companies like Google, FriendFeed, Twitter, and Facebook are clambering over each other to meet this need, each providing convenient URLs for people to print on business cards and share with friends: - [facebook.com/chrismessina](http://facebook.com/chrismessina) - [friendfeed.com/chrismessina](http://friendfeed.com/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me) - [google.com/profiles/chrismessina](http://google.com/profiles/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me) - [twitter.com/chrismessina](http://twitter.com/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me) Referring to Tim O'Reilly's thoughts on the [business models of Web 2.0](http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/news/2005/09/30/what-is-web-20.html?ref=chrismessina.me), new lock-in is achieved through either [owning a namespace](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/04/15/google-profiles-namespace-lock-in-social-search/?ref=chrismessina.me) or accruing hard-replicate amounts of data. It's not hard to see what's going on here. Worse, from my perspective, is that I have very little control over how I am presented by these services. Facebook gives me no control over my public profile (I can change my profile picture and choose how public or private I want to be); FriendFeed represents my activities online, but gives me no control over the look or priority of activities shown by default; Google lets me customize and control a great deal of what shows up on my page, but everyone's page looks the same, as though we all worked for Google; finally, Twitter lets me customize the background image and colors of my profile, but without context or knowing about Twitter, it might be confusing just what's going on or what I'm posting about. That's not to say that these services are doing anything wrong, only that the option for me to express myself as I choose should be provided without sacrificing my ability to use these services or to connect with their members, just as I'm able to host my own email server and send email to other email servers without pre-registering with them. Now, it is true that, even I'm not able to self-host my own identity and connect with these services, there is much work being done to establish APIs that at least allow services to connect with one another — affording roaming, multi-homing, data portability, and service substitutability. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/vogelium/309939910/?ref=chrismessina.me)The problem with the current — albeit transitional — approach is that it leads to what we've christened the "[NASCAR problem](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/04/06/does-openid-need-to-be-hard/?ref=chrismessina.me)" — the one where dozens of vendor logos dominate simple interfaces to "make it easier" for people to access and connect to their preferred provider. I call this transitional because [the NASCAR approach fundamentally does not scale and is not portable](http://www.sociallipstick.com/2009/04/?y%/lets-detect-logged-in-state/&ref=chrismessina.me) — that is, the brands that are known or popular in one market or geographic location may not be the same elsewhere and if you mess with the default set of logos, you're liable to lock out one portion of your users who may well become dependent on seeing a logo that they recognize to connect or log in. Now, for some providers, I'm sure that would be a desirous outcome, but to my overall theme, that's not the level of competition that I think we should be focusing on. Time has proven that lock-in never results in better services or more satisfaction and is ultimately not good for the marketplace. At best, it's temporarily good for a few dominant players until the government is forced to step in and reset the market conditions — a fate generally to be avoided (*see*: financial crisis). There are two points here: first, we need to be more liberal and accommodating with how people are able to assert identity online and second, I think that people will learn or develop ways to recall or present their identity through means that are scalable and global. Consider this progression: - What's your address? - What's your phone number? - What's your AOL screenname? - What's your email address? - What's your MySpace? - ...Twitter? - Are you on Facebook? - **What's your OpenID?** If we develop OpenID such that it can encompass all the previous generations of identifiers, then I think we will make considerable progress. Nothing about OpenID says that it [has to start as a URL](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/06/22/announcing-emailtoid-mapping-email-addresses-to-openids/?ref=chrismessina.me) — only that it has to be compatible with the architecture of the web. And this is why standards are so critical for establishing how identity is "achieved" on the web. Without standardizing — and achieving ubiquitous adoption of the enabling technologies — the social web will not take shape, limiting us to competition at a much less compelling layer of user experience and service. ![VT-100 with PINE](http://img.skitch.com/20090518-c26m51r56ckqpf91h53b4rr7nm.png) Consider email — made possible by SMTP and IMAP. Without these protocols, Gmail would never have had a chance at making it out the door, preventing the kind of compelling experience that they built for the iPhone from ever seeing the light of day. Though these protocols have been in existence for decades, it took someone like Google to come along and really revolutionize the way that people experience email. Anyone could have done it before (and indeed others tried) because the technologies are open and free to implement. Similarly, I would argue that Twitter is the beneficiary of coming into being right at the moment when [SMS finally achieved mass adoption](http://blog.twitter.com/2007/09/tracking-twitter.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (and awareness) in the United States. Up until that point, the standard was certainly in use by phone carriers, but no one thought to use the ubiquity of SMS as a **publishing protocol**. Twitter instantly became the everyman blogging tool because [you could twitter from your phone](http://help.twitter.com/forums/10711/entries/14014?ref=chrismessina.me), without even having to master the English language (i.e. i can has lolz?) and, perhaps more importantly, without having to know what XML-RPC was. [Ev Williams](http://evhead.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) did the same thing with Blogger back when RSS was just becoming widespread — enabling him to [sell the then-novel publishing platform to Google for a hefty sum](http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2003/feb/18/digitalmedia.citynews?ref=chrismessina.me). And then there's Apple. If I told you that the iPhone was the best example of the success of standards and open source, you'd probably laugh at me, but check it out (click to enlarge): [](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3348/3541747237%5F42d7503bd1%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me) I count at least a dozen standards behind most of the default applications that populate the Home screen. These very same protocols have been available for everyone else to build on top of — and again, indeed people have — but no one else did so with the same degree of execution or emphasis on user experience. I remember the days when my mom got her first phone with SMS and I would send her text messages from college. Months later when I visited her in person she asked me, "Chris, I can't figure it out. What is this envelope icon on my phone?" How far we've come. Moreover, how much Apple has done to create a user interface layer for the SMS standard that few had previously taken the time to test. And it's not just the iPhone that demonstrates Apple's benefits from open technologies: the Safari browser on both OS X and the iPhone is powered by the open source [WebKit](http://webkit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) project; curiously [Google's Chrome browser](http://google.com/chrome?ref=chrismessina.me) is [built on WebKit](http://chromium.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [as is the Palm Pre](http://pdnblog.palm.com/2009/03/developing-applications-for-webos-slides/?ref=chrismessina.me), a direct competitor to the iPhone. It's this kind of competitive situation that I'm advocating for when I talk about facilitating the creation of the building blocks for the open, social web. I don't want companies to continue to waste effort competing on layers that frankly don't matter. Who cares how your address book works as long as you're keeping your users safe and not training them to hand out their [passwords like confetti](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/02/twitter-and-the-password-anti-pattern/?ref=chrismessina.me)? Who cares how your login experience works as long as people can choose how they want to identify themselves to you? Who cares how you send people messages as long as they get through? Etc. Etc. Once the mechanisms for these kinds of functions become commoditized and based on the same fundamental technologies, then companies can compete on how easy they are to use and the quality of the service offered. And the whole point of working on open building blocks for the social web is much bigger than just creating more social networks: *our challenge is to build technologies that enhance the network and serve people so that they in turn can go and contribute to building better and richer societies*. I can think of few other endeavors that might result in more lasting and widespread benefits than making the raw materials of human connection and knowledge sharing a basic and fundamental property of the web. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[liza sabater](http://culturekitchen.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-18 06:09:10 much to chew on and as usually greatly worked out. this particularly reverberated : > It is my contention that the individual is the basic atomic unit of society, and without society you can’t get to acting on the “social” layer. because in my technology advocacy --and in my struggles to articulate why we need to rethink blogging as a tool for identity aggregation and management-- i would have written this slightly different: > It is my contention that the individual is the basic atomic unit of society, and without **the individual** you can’t get to acting on the “social” layer. this to me is key. we not only need tools that empower the individual in this new digital economy but we need use tech solutions like OpenID or VRM to create a new political paradigm that protects our rights as individuals who are now being compiled, mined, aggregated and distributed as data as well. **[Almar van der Krogt](http://www.virvie.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-20 03:01:58 Thank you for this very insightful piece. It puts in perspective a small discussion I started about usernames (http://virvie.posterous.com/username-over-domain-name). And in reference to your previous post ('my name is not a URL'): what would you have done if @chrismessina wasn't available anymore? I'm also glad to hear that the DiSo-project is still going on. I've been thinking of a possible application once it is in place: a means of hosting a virtual party on your own domain (see http://www.slideshare.net/avanderkrogt/party-at-my-place-for-web-and-beyond-subtitled ). I'm curious to hear what you think about that. **[Yishay Mor](http://designedforlearning.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-21 03:48:19 give me a buzz next time you're coming to Europe. Would like to do something together. Great stuff, sorry I don't have time to post a proper response. A lot to talk about here. Just a quick one - I happened to come across this, seems very related: http://www.slideshare.net/CameronNeylon/oh-youre-that-cameron-neylon **[Mike](http://vkontakte.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-23 12:18:33 Hi, nice posts there :-) thank's for the interesting information **[Kenneth Stein](http://www.plexav.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-24 17:33:37 I've been developing a "personhood" model for the past several years, and have written generally on the benefits of such a model and the need for a means of securing such. You can begin to explore some of these ideas here. **[Mike Johnson](http://mikejohnson2666@gmail.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-08-16 08:24:01 I've been starting to use social media, in all its various forms, in the role of amateur blogger. This is an extremely comprehensive view of the field, so for a beginner like me it's been a helpful read. ### Comixology and the future of connected commerce URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/comixology-and-the-future-of-connected-commerce/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:27.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3484785922/?ref=chrismessina.me)It dawned on me recently that, not only are we in a period of great change and transformation, but that those of us who have been working on the web to make it a more social and humane place have only barely begun the process of taking the "*personality*\-ization" (not "personalization") and connectedness that we take for granted on the web into the offline world. All at once, my sense tell me that things coming to a head, and, as Om Malik pointed out, we are [at the end of an era](http://gigaom.com/2009/04/22/with-myspace-changes-a-social-networking-era-ends/?ref=chrismessina.me). It's anyone's guess how the next chapter of the social web will read, but a few experiences lately got me thinking. ### A connected Apple experience I first saw a glimmer of this when in Boston, shopping at the Apple store for a USB charger. Upon checkout, I was asked whether I wanted a print copy of my receipt or to have it emailed to me. Reluctant to explain the "+apple" in my email address, I hesitated for a moment but submitted: "by email." The Apple employee looked at his screen, read back my email address and said, "Is that correct?" "Yeah..." I stammered, somewhat surprised. "It is." Of course all they did was correlate my credit card number to the email address I'd previously had my receipts sent to. When I was *shopping in San Francisco*. Here I was *in Boston*! Apple had recorded my email, associated it with my credit card (perhaps more than one), and then shared it with all their stores, providing me with a specific kind of convenience that few other stores — at least that I know of — have attempted. (**Aside**: And don't give me any *buts* about privacy and correlations and any of that bullshit. Privacy has a certain kind of value and importance, but I've heard so little vision out of privacy zealots that it's time think about the [other side of the coin](http://gigaom.com/2009/04/27/researchers-mine-your-web-data-for-profits-and-the-public-good/?ref=chrismessina.me).) Now, that small example of convenience may not seem significant on the surface, but it does suggest that *new connections* — between the world of brick and mortar identity and the realm of digital identity — *are emerging*, creating new opportunities for creative commerce. ### Comixology and Isotope [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/isotope/3253763139/in/photostream?ref=chrismessina.me)My favorite comic book store is located in Hayes Valley in San Francisco. It's run by [James Sime](http://twitter.com/jamessime?ref=chrismessina.me) — someone who belongs in comics, much moreso than he belongs selling them. His shop is called [Isotope](http://isotopecomics.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and every month or so, as time allows, I stop in to pick up my "subscriptions" — known in the comic book universe as my "pull list". The pull list is a simple concept, essentially a list of comic books that I want to set aside on an individual or ongoing basis — that I'll come and pick up later. Since new books arrive every Wednesday, it's not terribly efficient for me to drop in just to pick up one or two issues, so the pull list is the best way to make sure I don't miss an issue while stretching the time between visits. The pull list is also a kind of personal relationship: I trust James to not only grab the titles that I've explicitly asked for, but to also suggest new books that I might not otherwise learn about. He also has to set aside inventory that might otherwise be made available to his walk-in patrons — even though I might ultimately decide, "Y'know, I think I'll pass on this one", so in that way, he's trusting me to be a reliable patron. Some time ago, James told me about a [dashboard widget](http://www.comixology.com/icos/?ref=chrismessina.me) that he had discovered that let him see what comics were coming out soon. I checked it out — but then forgot about it — preferring the high touch relationship I had of visiting the store and browsing the shelves. On a recent visit, James told me that he'd actually been in touch with the makers of the widget and that they were collaborating on "something big." Having personally introduced James to both Twitter and [Foursquare](http://twitter.com/chrismessina/status/1506154188?ref=chrismessina.me), I was intrigued... I mean, James has long had a blog, has presented at a BarCamp — as comic book retailers go, he's about as 2.0 as you can get. And since he knows what a big web dork I am, his excitement told me that he was indeed on to something. "They have [an iPhone app](http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=297414943&mt=8&ref=chrismessina.me)," he began, "called Comixology. It's like the dashboard widget, but get this: I've been working with them on a pilot to hook up my store to their website." "Ok," I said. "So go to [their website](http://www.comixology.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [create an account](http://www.comixology.com/signup?ref=chrismessina.me). Then search for [my store](http://www.comixology.com/retailers/0001/Isotope?ref=chrismessina.me). You'll see a button that says 'connect'. Hit that. From then on, whenever you add something to your digital pull list on the Comixology service, I'll see it and add a copy to your stack." [](http://www.comixology.com/retailers/0001/Isotope?ref=chrismessina.me)"Wow," I thought, "this changes everything." ### Connected commerce, activity streams and the point It isn't that my Apple experience or the Comixology service is the answer to question "what is the future of retail?", but they outline the contours of the nexus between the social web and the real world. Given what I've been working on in a round-about way on the [DiSo Project](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), it is so patently clear to me that where Apple connects a credit card number to an email address, I see an OpenID associated with a payment gateway and a transaction dropbox that happens to be hosted by Google (that is, my email); where James and Comixology see a contextualized relationship management and inventory tool, I see an iPhone application that lets me buy physical goods, connect to a real life merchant of my choosing (based on his high-touch service), and then communicate my tastes and purchases to my friends and fourth-party services through [activity streams](http://activitystrea.ms/?ref=chrismessina.me). *Imagine*: after a month of so assembling a good sized pull list on Comixology.com, I visit Isotope and James presents my selections, suggesting a few new books I might be interested in. I agree to give them a try, he updates my pull list on his Mac through the Comixology site, immediately updating on my iPhone. I review the list — everything looks good — and tap the "checkout" button in the app. Pre-loaded funds are immediately withdrawn from my Apple iTunes account; James receives an instant payment confirmation and I can take my comics to go without having ever reached for my wallet. Walking out the door with my nose in my phone, I uncheck a few comics from my transaction history and send the rest to my activity broker — which in turn pushes updates out to Facebook, FriendFeed, and to anyone else who is subscribed to my comic book purchases (yeah, like two people) — and in turn, they take my social recommendations, applying James', and add some of my picks to their respective pull lists. The whole thing takes about three minutes, with room for salutations. This is buyer-mediated commerce (contrary to [vendor-mediated](http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/04/your-facebook-profile-makes-marketers-dreams-come-true/?ref=chrismessina.me)), or what I might call "connected commerce." This is one potential future for platforms like Facebook Connect to get real, and where I think identity, social, commercial and location technology will begin to hit their stride. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[David](http://comixology.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-01 12:03:35 Chris, thanks for highlighting our efforts. Retailers interested in our services can visit http://retailers.comixology.com. **[Nate Westheimer](http://innonate.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-01 12:30:11 Love this. You're very right about how all this is coming together. Comixology is paving the way in a way that makes it awesome for both the Chris Messina's of the world and the Isotopes of the world. The integrations you talk about -- going into the activity stream -- will make it awesome for everyone. Make me think about Kathy Sierra and the idea of helping people kick ass. **[Calvin](http://emailtoid.net/i/4ee91e88/348c73a8/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-01 13:21:57 Nice article about contextualized commercial experience. In order to provide smooth user experience, multiple services and technologies has to be thoughtfully integrated. I'm sure that any one of the services alone cannot create the same level of experience. I find this article to be coherent with "An Internet Watered Down", a presentation by John Pettengill from Razorfish, that talks about why online business should not just create a "mobile version" of their sites, but should take advantage of mobile technology and carefully integrate their services into the while customer experience. http://www.slideshare.net/johnep/an-internet-watered-down-or-how-to-save-the-mobile-web **Todd** ¡ 2009-05-02 04:44:30 "...I see an iPhone application that lets me buy physical goods, connect to a real life merchant of my choosing (based on his high-touch service), and then communicate my tastes and purchases to my friends and fourth-party services through activity streams." Love it! The tweeting TiVo ( @TwiVo ) similar. The machine tweets its activities, your friends know what you are watching, very likely they'll pay to watch the same thing because you gave it a thumbs up. Extrapolate to any connected device or machine and everyone wins - companies make more money, you get utility, friends get trustworthy recommendations. **[Wevah](http://derailer.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-02 06:33:33 Reminds-me-of-how: It drives me bonkers that two locations of the same hair salon chain—which are around a mile apart—don't basic customer info with each other. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-02 06:35:06 @Calvin: I agree. A lot of the stuff coming out of Razorfish in this regard is pretty interesting. Thanks for the link! @Todd: Exactly. Boxee is another good example where it emits an activity stream of your implicit and explicit behaviors concerning what you watch. Certainly loads of potential! **alsomike** ¡ 2009-05-02 21:51:10 Why not take it a step further and have your comics delivered to your doorstep, then you don't even need the comic book store or the iphone. That's what happened to record stores that catered to DJs. Henry Petroski wrote "the essence of engineering is to construe every limiting aspect of existence as a remediable malfunction". The problem? Most users of technology don't see it that way, and this leads to solving problems that aren't significant, because taking away a limitation -- any limitation -- is viewed as end in itself, regardless of whether removing the limitation makes a meaningful difference or what the costs of adopting the solution are. This is what leads technologists to speculate about new ways of living that are enabled by new technology. If removing certain limitations isn't currently meaningful or useful, perhaps there are new lifestyles for which they are. For example, now we can inundate our friends with our "stream", so the idea of personal branding is invented to explain why this is important. Mobile computing creates the idea of digital nomads, etc. Is the same not true for "buyer-mediated commerce"? Or the "citizen-centric web"? It's not that these new lifestyles are pure fictions; they aren't, but they are marginal, and will probably stay that way. But their existence is used in a deeply misleading way, as part of a narrative that claims that these are the early adopters, soon everyone will be doing this, etc. The problem is that this projects the engineering worldview as stated above on to ordinary people: that they aren't digital nomads (or whatever) because of some limitation, but now that malfunction has been heroically swept away by technology, so now they will leap at the chance. This is ultimately OpenID's problem. It seems like the assumption is that simply removing the malfunction of having to log in to websites individually would translate to users' adopting it. A bit of a tangent, maybe, but there ya go! :) **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-03 01:36:18 @alsomike: Thanks for your comment. I think what you're getting as it how engineers and technologists like to map emergent behaviors to some justifiable concept — suggesting that, merely because someone behaves a certain way justifies the development and creation of technology to further support that behavior, even if the behavior itself is a byproduct or accident of something else. I think you betray your argument in your first two sentences! My whole point is that THERE IS benefit to going to the comic store — in that it affords me the chance to relate to a fellow human being, and to engage in a bit of commercial serendipity. Moreover, there is a certain physical joy in being able to peruse the shelves of a comic book store — with or without the intention to buy — with the purpose of just consuming the experience. It's not unlike going to a museum or window shopping — it's not about productivity — unlike most technological innovation — it's simply about engaging in an experience with no ulterior motive. Now, you bring up the "citizen-centric web" and OpenID — and I see where you're going. And maybe you're right, and perhaps my assumptions and goals are wrong, or simply off-base. But I advocate for the concept and technology because I feel like the way the web — and web relationships — are structured today — are not scalable and are set up against the sanctity of the individual. I believe in the "citizen-centric web", not just because we can build technology to support it, but because I've talked to folks who don't understand, care about or build technology themselves, and they can relate to the issues that I seek to address with things like the DiSo Project. Certainly there is a certainly "early adopter angst" which I don't presume is shared among the general population, and I don't mean to presume that the issues that we early adopters face are the issues that everyone faces. However, being on the leading edge of technology has shown me where limitations exist that could be overcome for the benefit of others — and not just because they are limitations and need to be surmounted! Instead, coming from the perspective of a designer, I see a lot of technology that is not the full realization of intent — but merely some stopgap measure to solve an immediate pain-point that ends up causing more long-term behavioral cramping. So, I wouldn't characterize OpenID's utility as simply ameliorating the proliferation of passwords — but rather come to the problem as recognizing that collective identity doesn't work for individualized transactions — and that we need some robust and reusable way to assert individuality in our digital transactions. The easiest and longest term solution to that problem, in my estimation, is to provide a means for expressing durable identity on the web, acknowledging that the only way such a solution will succeed is if it's compatible with the web that we have, rather than the web that we want. That solution, so far, looks to me like OpenID. **Jon Lee** ¡ 2009-05-11 11:49:30 It's not "bullshit" you idiot. Yes, yes, you can give up privacy for convenience, yawn. And there are plenty of people and companies out there who will hassle or screw you with the information you give them. And regardless of any privacy policies or anything else, very likely some or all of it will escape to places you'd never imagine and never want. And then it's too late, you can't take it back. So wait until the day when something inconvenient or embarrassing or nasty happens to you because of all that very detailed and personal information you've been suckered into providing, then see if you still think it's BS. That aside, you state things as fact that are only, only your own little opinion. There are plenty of other people that disagree with you, like me. The fact that you need to preemptively abuse them says something about you which is really not good. So wait a few years and see what happens, and see what sort of world you've made for yourself. Yes, maybe zero privacy will be so common by then that it will be normal and nobody will think much about it any more. People have predicted that, books have been written about it. It's very possible. But I seriously doubt that's going to be a good thing. You just have to look at the world today, the things that are happening, the way things are going, and read a little history. It's scary. And you should not promote it. If you want it for yourself, fine, dig your own grave. But I and a few others with enough insight to see the consequences will continue to try to keep personal information private. If you had any sense you would too. **[Don’t make me a target | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/11/13/dont-make-me-a-target/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-13 12:57:24 \[...\] months back, I wrote up a vision for what I call “connected commerce“, using Comixology as a preview of where I see this going, though that service is still far \[...\] ### Google Profiles, namespace lock-in & social search URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/google-profiles-namespace-lock-in-social-search/ Last updated: 2009-04-15T01:26:26.000Z I'd originally intended to respond to Joshua Schacter's [post about URL shorteners](http://joshua.schachter.org/2009/04/on-url-shorteners.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and how they're merely the tip of the data iceberg, but since I missed [that debate](http://www.techmeme.com/090403/p71?ref=chrismessina.me#a090403p71), Google has fortuitously plied me with an even better example by [releasing](http://twitter.com/jyri/status/1519835329?ref=chrismessina.me) [custom profile URLs](http://www.labnol.org/internet/vanity-url-for-google-profiles/8202/?ref=chrismessina.me) today.My point is to reiterate one of Tim O'Reilly's ever-prescient [admonishments about Web 2.0](http://radar.oreilly.com/2006/12/web-20-compact-definition-tryi.html?ref=chrismessina.me): **lock-in can be achieved through owning a namespace**. In full: Consider two things: - Google's mission is to [organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful](http://www.google.com/intl/en/corporate/?ref=chrismessina.me). - Facebook's mission is to [make it easier for people to share and connect](http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=57822962130&ref=chrismessina.me). Owning the "people" namespace will determine whether people see the web through Google's technicolor glasses or Facebook's more nuanced and monochrome blue hues.Curiously, it has been (correctly) argued that Google "doesn't get social", a criticism that I generally support. And yet, with their move to more convenient profile URLs that point to profiles that aggregate content from across the web ([beating Facebook](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/12/facebook-getting-serious-about-vanity-urls/?ref=chrismessina.me) [to the punch](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/04/14/google-profiles-take-an-important-social-step-with-vanity-urls/?ref=chrismessina.me)), a bigger (albeit incomplete) picture begins to emerge.When I blogged that [my name is not a URL](http://chrismessina.me/s/blog/2009/03/21/my-name-is-not-a-url/img?ref=chrismessina.me), I wasn't so much arguing against vanity or custom profile URLs but instead making the point that such things really should go away over time, from a usability perspective.Let me put it this way: at one point, if you weren't in the Yellow Pages, you basically didn't exist. Now imagine there being several competitors to the Yellow Pages — the Red, Green and Blue Pages — each maintaining overlapping but incomplete listings of people. You're going to want to use the one that has the most complete, exhaustive and easy-to-use list of names, right? And, I bet beyond that, if one of them was able to make the people that you know and actually care about more accessible to you, you'd pick that one over all the others. And this is where owning — and getting people to "live in" — a namespace begins to reveal its significance. ![Google Profile Search](http://img.skitch.com/20090415-eek2c33yxn8dr49iak1xkkrxb1.png) So, it's telling thing to look at Google and Facebook's respective approaches to their **people search engines and indexes**. Indeed, having a readily accessible index of living persons — structured by their connections to one another — will become a necessary precondition to [getting social search right](http://brynnevans.com/blog/2009/01/30/why-social-search-wont-topple-google-anytime-soon/?ref=chrismessina.me) (see [Aardvark](http://vark.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) for a related approach, which connects to the Facebook and IM portions of your social graph to facilitate question answering).As social search and *living through your social graph* becomes "the norm" (i.e. with [increasing reliance on social filtering](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/why%5Ffiltering%5Fis%5Fthe%5Fnext%5Fstep.php?ref=chrismessina.me)), Google and Facebook's [ability to create compelling experiences on top of data about you and who you know](http://bokardo.com/archives/google-erosion/?ref=chrismessina.me) will come to define and differentiate them.To date, [Google's profile search has been rather unloved and passed over](http://venturebeat.com/2008/11/03/search-those-google-profiles-you-probably-arent-using/?ref=chrismessina.me), but with the new, more convenient profile URLs and the location of profile search at [google.com/profiles](http://www.google.com/profiles?ref=chrismessina.me), I suspect that Google is finally getting serious about social.Compare Facebook and Google's search results for my buddy, [Dave Morin](http://davemorin.com/?ref=chrismessina.me):**Facebook logged out**: [![Search Names: dave morin | Facebook](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3623/3444313518_b1a0f2f7bd.jpg)](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3623/3444313518%5Fd99e6fc89c%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me) ****Facebook logged in:** [![Facebook | Search: dave morin](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3609/3444311902_8caffab909.jpg)](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3609/3444311902%5Fab9eff573e%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me) ****Google [results](http://www.google.com/profiles?q=Dave+Morin&ref=chrismessina.me) (there's no difference between logged in and logged out views):** [![Dave Morin - Google Profile Search](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3354/3443521581_17f5b57d90.jpg)](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3354/3443521581%5F11dbfe499e%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me) Notice the difference? See how much better Facebook's search is because it knows *which* "Dave Morin" is my friend?Now, consider the profile result when you click through:**Dave's Facebook [profile](http://facebook.com/davemorin)** (logged out): [![Dave Morin - San Francisco, CA | Facebook](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3575/3444330364_ab4b7d42a9.jpg)](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3444330364/?ref=chrismessina.me) (Facebook's logged in profile view is as you'd expect — a typical Facebook profile with stream and wall.)Now, here's the clincher. Take a look at **Google's [profile for Dave](http://www.google.com/profiles/davemorin?ref=chrismessina.me)**: [![Dave Morin - Google Profile](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3352/3444368676_5e8b3034e5.jpg)](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3352/3444368676%5F23dcbeacf9%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me) Google is able to provide a much richer and simpler profile, that's much more accessible (without requiring any kind of sign in) because they've radically simplified their privacy model on this page (show what you want, and nothing more). Indeed, Google's made it easier for people to be open — at least with *static* information — than Facebook!So much for Facebook's claim to openness! ;)Of course, [default Google profiles](http://www.google.com/profiles/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me) are pretty sparse, but this is just the beginning. (**Bonus**: both Facebook and Google public profiles support the [hcard](http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard?ref=chrismessina.me) microformat!)And the point is: **where will you build your online identity? Under whose namespace do you want to exist?** (Personally, I choose [my own](https://www.chrismessina.me/).)Clearly [the battle for the future of the social web](http://chrismessina.me/s/blog/2008/05/23/the-battle-for-the-future-of-the-social-web/img?ref=chrismessina.me) is heating up in subtle but significant ways, and Google's move today shouldn't be thought of anything less than the opening salvo in moving the battle back to its turf: **search**. ### Google Profiles, namespace lock-in & social search URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/google-profiles-namespace-lock-in-social-search-2/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:26.000Z I'd originally intended to respond to Joshua Schacter's [post about URL shorteners](http://joshua.schachter.org/2009/04/on-url-shorteners.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and how they're merely the tip of the data iceberg, but since I missed [that debate](http://www.techmeme.com/090403/p71?ref=chrismessina.me#a090403p71), Google has fortuitously plied me with an even better example by [releasing](http://twitter.com/jyri/status/1519835329?ref=chrismessina.me) [custom profile URLs](http://www.labnol.org/internet/vanity-url-for-google-profiles/8202/?ref=chrismessina.me) today. My point is to reiterate one of Tim O'Reilly's ever-prescient [admonishments about Web 2.0](http://radar.oreilly.com/2006/12/web-20-compact-definition-tryi.html?ref=chrismessina.me): **lock-in can be achieved through owning a namespace**. In full: > 5\. Chief among the future sources of lock in and competitive advantage will be data, whether through increasing returns from user-generated data (eBay, Amazon reviews, audioscrobbler info in last.fm, email/IM/phone traffic data as soon as someone who owns a lot of that data figures out that's how to use it to enable social networking apps, GPS and other location data), through owning a namespace (Gracenote/CDDB, Network Solutions), or through proprietary file formats (Microsoft Office, iTunes). ("Data is the Intel Inside") (I'll note that the process of getting advantage from data isn't necessary a case of companies being "evil." It's a natural outcome of network effects applied to user contribution. Being first or best, you will attract the most users, and if your application truly harnesses network effects to get better the more people use it, you will eventually build barriers to entry based purely on the difficulty of building another such database from the ground up when there's already so much value somewhere else. (This is why no one has yet succeeded in displacing eBay. Once someone is at critical mass, it's really hard to get people to try something else, even if the software is better.) The question of "don't be evil" will come up when it's clear that someone who has amassed this kind of market position has to decide what to do with it, and whether or not they stay open at that point.) Consider two things: - Google's mission is to [organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful](http://www.google.com/intl/en/corporate/?ref=chrismessina.me). - Facebook's mission is to [make it easier for people to share and connect](http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=57822962130&ref=chrismessina.me). Owning the "people" namespace will determine whether people see the web through Google's technicolor glasses or Facebook's more nuanced and monochrome blue hues. Curiously, it has been (correctly) argued that Google "doesn't get social", a criticism that I generally support. And yet, with their move to more convenient profile URLs that point to profiles that aggregate content from across the web ([beating Facebook](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/12/facebook-getting-serious-about-vanity-urls/?ref=chrismessina.me) [to the punch](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/04/14/google-profiles-take-an-important-social-step-with-vanity-urls/?ref=chrismessina.me)), a bigger (albeit incomplete) picture begins to emerge. When I blogged that [my name is not a URL](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/03/21/my-name-is-not-a-url/?ref=chrismessina.me), I wasn't so much arguing against vanity or custom profile URLs but instead making the point that such things really should go away over time, from a usability perspective. Let me put it this way: at one point, if you weren't in the Yellow Pages, you basically didn't exist. Now imagine there being several competitors to the Yellow Pages — the Red, Green and Blue Pages — each maintaining overlapping but incomplete listings of people. You're going to want to use the one that has the most complete, exhaustive and easy-to-use list of names, right? And, I bet beyond that, if one of them was able to make the people that you know and actually care about more accessible to you, you'd pick that one over all the others. And this is where owning — and getting people to "live in" — a namespace begins to reveal its significance. ![Google Profile Search](http://img.skitch.com/20090415-eek2c33yxn8dr49iak1xkkrxb1.png) So, it's telling thing to look at Google and Facebook's respective approaches to their **people search engines and indexes**. Indeed, having a readily accessible index of living persons — structured by their connections to one another — will become a necessary precondition to [getting social search right](http://brynnevans.com/blog/2009/01/30/why-social-search-wont-topple-google-anytime-soon/?ref=chrismessina.me) (see [Aardvark](http://vark.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) for a related approach, which connects to the Facebook and IM portions of your social graph to facilitate question answering). As social search and *living through your social graph* becomes "the norm" (i.e. with [increasing reliance on social filtering](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/why%5Ffiltering%5Fis%5Fthe%5Fnext%5Fstep.php?ref=chrismessina.me)), Google and Facebook's [ability to create compelling experiences on top of data about you and who you know](http://bokardo.com/archives/google-erosion/?ref=chrismessina.me) will come to define and differentiate them. To date, [Google's profile search has been rather unloved and passed over](http://venturebeat.com/2008/11/03/search-those-google-profiles-you-probably-arent-using/?ref=chrismessina.me), but with the new, more convenient profile URLs and the location of profile search at [google.com/profiles](http://www.google.com/profiles?ref=chrismessina.me), I suspect that Google is finally getting serious about social. Compare Facebook and Google's search results for my buddy, [Dave Morin](http://davemorin.com/?ref=chrismessina.me): **Facebook logged out**: [](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3623/3444313518%5Fd99e6fc89c%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me)**Facebook logged in**: [](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3609/3444311902%5Fab9eff573e%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me)**Google** [**results**](http://www.google.com/profiles?q=Dave+Morin&ref=chrismessina.me) (there's no difference between logged in and logged out views): [](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3354/3443521581%5F11dbfe499e%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me)Notice the difference? See how much better Facebook's search is because it knows *which* "Dave Morin" is my friend? Now, consider the profile result when you click through: **Dave's Facebook** [**profile**](http://facebook.com/davemorin)(logged out): [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3444330364/?ref=chrismessina.me)(Facebook's logged in profile view is as you'd expect — a typical Facebook profile with stream and wall.) Now, here's the clincher. Take a look at **Google's** [**profile for Dave**](http://www.google.com/profiles/davemorin?ref=chrismessina.me): [](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3352/3444368676%5F23dcbeacf9%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me)Google is able to provide a much richer and simpler profile, that's much more accessible (without requiring any kind of sign in) because they've radically simplified their privacy model on this page (show what you want, and nothing more). Indeed, Google's made it easier for people to be open — at least with *static* information — than Facebook! So much for Facebook's claim to openness! ;) Of course, [default Google profiles](http://www.google.com/profiles/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me) are pretty sparse, but this is just the beginning. (**Bonus**: both Facebook and Google public profiles support the [hcard](http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard?ref=chrismessina.me) microformat!) And the point is: **where will you build your online identity? Under whose namespace do you want to exist?** (Personally, I choose [my own](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me).) Clearly [the battle for the future of the social web](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/05/23/the-battle-for-the-future-of-the-social-web/?ref=chrismessina.me) is heating up in subtle but significant ways, and Google's move today shouldn't be thought of anything less than the opening salvo in moving the battle back to its turf: **search**. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Rocity](http://officialubiee.com/tag/rocity?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-15 01:52:10 Having your profile entered like explained allows you the professional image you need to accomplish many things online...Provide an honest presentation of yourself... Nice Post!!! chrismessina **[Andrew A. Peterson](http://andrewapeterson.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-15 02:09:37 What would be awesome, I think, is for the WikiMedia Foundation to launch a Directory project, a Universal PhoneBook of sorts. The reason I think WkiMedia should do it is because they already have the trust of people. What we really need is a Wikipedia that allows articles on anything or anyone, even if the topic is obscure. In this way, Wikipedia, or some other service/library could become the central open source database for people, products, music, places... All data would be accessible via reasonable open-source-y API's Etc... A real, global Library which includes anything and everything including people. **[Justin Davies](http://www.justindavies.com.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-15 02:39:47 Great post, nice comparison with Google / Facebook which added to the debate.... **Todd** ¡ 2009-04-15 03:25:46 I was going to use Google Profile vanity URL, but then noticed in doing so, Google gives away my email address to the spam bots. What is up with that? I get a lot of spam in gmail as it is, don't want more. Also, "...Where will you build your online identity? Under whose namespace do you want to exist?" Obviously I don't want to be reliant on Facebook, or Google, but maintaining a server of my own is too expensive. Plus reading the ToS of services like Media Temple doesn't give me any confidence that I have 100% ownership either. Recent current events here in Dallas may give you pause - an ISP called Core IP Networks had their entire data center seized by the FBI. Not one or two machines that had the Wolverine movie on them, but \*all\* the servers, hundreds of them: "...FBI agents have raided a Dallas data center, seizing servers at a company called Core IP Networks. The company's CEO has posted a message saying the FBI confiscated all its customer servers, including gear belonging to companies that are almost certainly not under suspicion." Type "Core IP Networks Dallas" to read the specifics. Ultimately having your own namespace is as fragile as letting Google do it for you? **[Eric Friedman](http://www.marketing.fm/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-15 06:09:26 @Todd - I agree and this was the problem with Google Pages using the same naming conventions. The problem for spammers though is they technically do not know which names are emails and which are just made-up or vanity URLs I have been talking about Google building a social network for awhile under all our our noses - but in a way that is much different and much more transparent to the user. They are surfacing data and features at times when you need it, but then it disappears when you dont. To me this is the power of a better network. **[Julien](http://ils.sont.la/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-15 06:13:04 When every human is on the net, I'm not sure a DNS based system designed for identifying machines will still be good enough to manage identity But isn't there multiple layers of namespaces? "where will you build your online identity? Under whose namespace do you want to exist? (Personally, I choose my own.)" When you use a dotcom to build your online idendity you play in a very specific namespace, with strict rules: domain name for your name may not be available, it's cheap but not free, its controlled by a handful of for profit companies, etc. (but be sure that I did just that with juliendorra.com, a personal life stream, in addition to my twitter and facebook profiles) In a way, it feels like we need to build something on top of domain names, not under. Something meta for idendity. Not necessarily DNS based at all. **[Allen Tom](http://allentom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-15 06:51:29 A Google Profile URL would be an excellent OpenID and great starting point linking to your data and services that you'd like to make portable (via OAuth). **[Marc](http://ermshaus.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-15 09:03:56 I'd like to be able to store public "about me" profile data in one central place (e. g. on my web site and/or attached to my OpenID). In that case, every service that wants to display my profile (or that I want to share my profile with) could just pull it from there (a nice XML format or something). It's annoying to update/synchronize your profile pages at lots of different services. **[Julien Genestoux](http://julien.genestoux.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-15 09:12:14 Agree with Tom, Google Profile would make a great OpenId to start! Also, I haven't had enough time to check, that would be just awesome that the urls we enter there are "checked" so that we have a true identity in terms of "pages". I agree I can't be describe with one page (or one url), but I could certainly be described by a "network" of pages linked together (to "certify" they're related)... Ideally, by just entering one of these urls anywhere, then, you could have access to all my online identities accross services! **[David Recordon](http://www.davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-15 09:45:23 I think one of the assumptions that Facebook is making is that the majority of people searching will already be logged in. **[Ben Clemens](http://practicalist.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-15 11:34:10 I very much like Google's profile pages and would even trust them as an aggregator of my details from different social networks, and having one as a basic openid would be wonderful! BUT the email-address giveaway is a show-stopper for me. I should be able to generate a keyphrase or use a nickname! A URL identifier is great and should be public and easily found, but I shouldn't have to expose personal information to have one. **[Danny Ayers](http://danny.ayers.name/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-15 11:36:29 Good points, and as far as the near-term is concerned, I agree totally. But longer term I'd suggest that the advantage for a service provider with majority market share will generally diminish. Facebook and Google both display a fairly walled garden/data silo kind of mentality, but in the globally connected space The Rest of the World will always be bigger. With that in mind, services which make the borders between namespaces transparent/invisible are likely to gain more (new) market share over time through net natural selection. Re. having your own NS - yes, definitely (though whether this will ever become a practical option for \*everyone\* is another matter). See also [Steve Pemberton's take](http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/01-15-steven-website/?ref=chrismessina.me). **Dan** ¡ 2009-04-15 14:18:03 i think you need to take into account an additional dimension: how famous are you? a) famous. make it like linus torvalds, let other people mirror your stuff. you don't need to ask them as they'll start doing it anyway. problem solved, the namespace gets less of a problem. b) not (yet) famous. you need to do your own mirroring. here, using an open p2p system might be the most persistent, most stable and most independent solution. as most people will start at b), using an open, standardized, company- and country-independent p2p network will likely be the key. **nebben** ¡ 2009-04-16 03:39:11 I think Google is trying to be your personal storefront. I wrote about that here, http://societrends.com/2009/04/16/google-profiles-may-become-your-storefront/. **[Ainslie](http://intensedebate.com/people/Ainslie?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-17 12:51:13 Interesting observations. Lots of food for thought. @AAinslie **[JJ Halans](http://halans.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-22 03:41:15 The problem I have is that your Google Profile name is your gmail address. They have an option for people to contact you without giving out your email address, but if you use the "humanized" url format, that is your gmail address. How are they going to handle bots scraping these profiles for gmail addresses? I would rather have my real name (which isn't my gmail address necessary) or another nickname as profile name, while the profile itself would still show my real name. **[Jed Sundwall](http://jedsundwall.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-22 18:41:23 Thanks for posting this. I'm a big fan of Google's profiles, and I'm certain that there's someone at Google who knows enough graph theory to add some smart guessing to a logged-in profile search. And re: Google "not getting social," I think they might "not get it like a fox." I'm impressed by their choice to use my chat list as a potential list of my "friends" when setting my profile's settings. It turns out I was building a useful shortlist of contacts when deciding who I want to IM with. Google Reader won my heart because of its social elements. I'm willing to put up with some major shortcomings from Google Docs because it's social software. I predict we'll start seeing our friends' profile pics popping up on SERPs before too long. Search for "restaurants in San Diego" and you might find a blog in the results accompanied by a note saying "your friend Jed subscribes to this blog in Google Reader." **[Ben Foster](http://www.benphoster.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-23 20:05:36 It's too bad that Twitter didn't think of reserving all the names that might one day be valuable to sell them off. Many of the Fortune 25 companies including Exxon, GE, GM, HP, and CVS aren't able to use their corporate names as their own account. I'm interested to see how Facebook handles multiple people with a claim to the same name. Will it be an auction or first-dibs? I hope they do some sort of analysis for people with the same names to see who posts the most/best content on Facebook and gives it to that user. ### Portable Profiles & Preferences on the Citizen-Centric Web URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/portable-profiles-preferences-on-the-citizen-centric-web-2/ Last updated: 2009-04-08T19:51:07.000Z [![Loyalty Cards by Joe Loong](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3250/2819512729_4942b1eedd_m.jpg)](http://www.flickr.com/photos/joelogon/2819512729/?ref=chrismessina.me) Let me state the problem plainly: in order to provide better service, it helps to know more about your customer, so that you can more effectively anticipate and meet her needs.But, pray tell, how do you learn about or solicit such information over the course of your first interaction? Moreover, how do you go about learning as much as you can, as quickly as you can, without making the request itself burdensome and off-putting?Well, as obvious as it seems, the answer is to let her tell you.The less obvious thing is *how*.And that's where user-centric (or citizen-centric) technologies offer the most promise.It's like this: - If you let someone use an account or ID that they already use regularly elsewhere, you will save them the hassle of having to create yet another account that works solely with your service; - following on that, an account that is reusable is more valuable, and its value can be further increased by attaching certain types of profile attributes to it that are commonly requested; - the more common it becomes to reuse an account, the more people will expect this convenience during new sign up experiences, ideally to the point of [knowing how to ask](http://demand.openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) for support for their preferred sign-in mechanism from the services that they use; - presuming that service providers' desire for profile information and preferences will not decrease, it will become an added byproduct of user-centric authentication to be able to import such data from identity providers as it is available; - as customers realize the convenience of portable profile and preference data, savvy identity providers will make it easier to store and express a wider array of this data, and will subsequently work with relying parties to develop interoperable sign up flows and on ramps (see [Google and Plaxo](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/comcast%5Fproperty%5Fsees%5F92%5Fsuccess%5Frate%5Fopenid.php?ref=chrismessina.me)). For this to work, the individual must be motivated to manage her profile information and preferences, which shouldn't be hard as her data becomes increasingly reusable (sort once, reuse everywhere). Additionally, organizing, maintaining, and accruing this information becomes less onerous when it's all in one place (or conveniently accessible through one central customer-picked source), as opposed to sharded across many accounts and unaffiliated services.You can get similar functionality with form-filling software like 1Password except in the model I'm describing, the data travels with you — beyond the browser and off the desktop — to wherever you need it — because it is stored in the cloud.As it becomes easier to store and share this information, I think more people will do this as a happenstance of using more social software — and will become acclimated to providing their friends *and* service providers with varying degrees of access to increasing amounts of personally describing data.Companies that jump on this and make it easier for people to manage their profile and preference data will benefit — having access to more accurate, timely, and better-maintained information, leading to more personalized user experiences and accelerating the path to satisfaction.Companies that *do* get this right will benefit from what is emerging as a new *social contract*. As a citizen of the web, if you let *me* manage my relationship with you, and *make it easy* for me to do so, giving me the choice of how and where I store my profile and preference data, I'll be more likely, *more willing*, and *more able* to share it with you, in an ongoing fashion, increasingly as you use it to improve my experiences with you. ### Portable Profiles & Preferences on the Citizen-Centric Web URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/portable-profiles-preferences-on-the-citizen-centric-web/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:25.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/joelogon/2819512729/?ref=chrismessina.me)Let me state the problem plainly: in order to provide better service, it helps to know more about your customer, so that you can more effectively anticipate and meet her needs. But, pray tell, how do you learn about or solicit such information over the course of your first interaction? Moreover, how do you go about learning as much as you can, as quickly as you can, without making the request itself burdensome and off-putting? Well, as obvious as it seems, the answer is to let her tell you. The less obvious thing is *how*. And that's where user-centric (or citizen-centric) technologies offer the most promise. It's like this: - If you let someone use an account or ID that they already use regularly elsewhere, you will save them the hassle of having to create yet another account that works solely with your service; - following on that, an account that is reusable is more valuable, and its value can be further increased by attaching certain types of profile attributes to it that are commonly requested; - the more common it becomes to reuse an account, the more people will expect this convenience during new sign up experiences, ideally to the point of [knowing how to ask](http://demand.openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) for support for their preferred sign-in mechanism from the services that they use; - presuming that service providers' desire for profile information and preferences will not decrease, it will become an added byproduct of user-centric authentication to be able to import such data from identity providers as it is available; - as customers realize the convenience of portable profile and preference data, savvy identity providers will make it easier to store and express a wider array of this data, and will subsequently work with relying parties to develop interoperable sign up flows and on ramps (see [Google and Plaxo](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/comcast%5Fproperty%5Fsees%5F92%5Fsuccess%5Frate%5Fopenid.php?ref=chrismessina.me)). For this to work, the individual must be motivated to manage her profile information and preferences, which shouldn't be hard as her data becomes increasingly reusable (sort once, reuse everywhere). Additionally, organizing, maintaining, and accruing this information becomes less onerous when it's all in one place (or conveniently accessible through one central customer-picked source), as opposed to sharded across many accounts and unaffiliated services. You can get similar functionality with form-filling software like 1Password except in the model I'm describing, the data travels with you — beyond the browser and off the desktop — to wherever you need it — because it is stored in the cloud. As it becomes easier to store and share this information, I think more people will do this as a happenstance of using more social software — and will become acclimated to providing their friends *and* service providers with varying degrees of access to increasing amounts of personally describing data. Companies that jump on this and make it easier for people to manage their profile and preference data will benefit — having access to more accurate, timely, and better-maintained information, leading to more personalized user experiences and accelerating the path to satisfaction. Companies that *do* get this right will benefit from what is emerging as a new *social contract*. As a citizen of the web, if you let *me* manage my relationship with you, and *make it easy* for me to do so, giving me the choice of how and where I store my profile and preference data, I'll be more likely, *more willing*, and *more able* to share it with you, in an ongoing fashion, increasingly as you use it to improve my experiences with you. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Joseph Holsten](http://josephholsten.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-09 00:32:13 I do hope you're keeping an eye on the mine project\[1\], which is a bit like bespoke activity streams tailored to suit a single audience instead of one size fits all. You probably wouldn't put your nutrition tracking info into your public stream, but maybe you trust your physician. Stir in a XRD service advertising your willingness to make custom streams and you'll really be cooking with gas. That's what, 80% of Canter's social dashboard? 1: http://themineproject.org/ **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-09 03:00:47 I am aware of the project and have had a conversation with the project's principals; in general I'm sympathetic to their cause and support their efforts. Would definitely like to see more interaction between MINE and the DiSo Project. Thanks for the reminder. **[Luca Mearelli](http://spazidigitali.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-09 07:07:25 I think that as we go down the path that you are describing people will see more and more the positive effects of being able to re-join together our online self (as opposed to having our personal data scattered across many services). We'll get more control and we'll be able to better engage with our providers, and through the VRM interactions that will be enabled we'll get better services (and the service providers will get happier users and customers, thus more willing to stay with them). I fear, though, that the shift will need to be started by the main identity hubs (Facebook, Google, Yahoo, ...) as it won't probably be reasonable to think of users flocking to use a brand new service as their main identity provider... **Todd** ¡ 2009-04-09 08:04:58 Adding to the encouragement for companies to support portable - Over at Razorfish, Marc M. Sanford Ph.D., wrote a white paper titled ‘Social Media Measurement: Widgets and Applications‘ Paper offers evidence that people are \*four times\* more likely to buy goods and services they see referenced by people they know ( i.e. their "contacts" ) Would post the URL, but then I'll get sent to the Factory City spam folder, DM me if you want it! **[Adriana Lukas](http://themineproject.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-10 12:00:37 Joe, you are right, of course. But I would say, that wouldn't I? :P Incidentally, we do think eventually Mine! will be able to take any level of data sensitivity, precisely because it give you the ability to audit and cut off your data flows. And anywhere where data flows, aka activity streams, have more value than 'data dumps', one-off sharing of static data, users will be able to retain fundamental control over it. By control, I don't mean 'DRM on their data', I mean ability to be granular with your data sharing according to relationships. Chris, I am going to be at the social foo camp next weekend, so we can catch up there. Looking forward. :) **[CoCreatr](http://cocreatr.typepad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-21 02:03:25 Thank you, Chris. I agree this is important. I have an OpenID, Gravatar and whatnot, but rarely bother to use them because each service and blog comment is different. Sure, would be easier if: *organizing, maintaining, and accruing this information becomes less onerous when it’s all in one place (or conveniently accessible through one central customer-picked source), as opposed to shared across many accounts and unaffiliated services. The central customer-picked source for my personal profile would not be in the cloud but in my choice of mobile personal storage media. Agree on a format or protocol and you have me as a repeat customer.* **cocreatrt** ¡ 2009-04-21 02:05:33 "Your comment must be approved by the site admins before it will appear publicly." That should be disclosed before hitting "submit comment". **[J. Trent Adams](http://jtrentadams.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-28 13:38:57 Chris - If you're familiar with the Mine!, you might want to check out the ProtectServe project cooked up by Eve Maler (@xmlgrrl). Here's a link to some of her posts on it: http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/categories/protectserve/ There's a lot of what you're referencing in there. Give it a look, and I'm sure she'd value your comments. -- J. Trent Adams =jtrentadams **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-28 13:41:33 @J. Trent: Totally! In fact, I had lunch with her last week. Loads of overlap in our respective projects! Thanks! **[Mark Jaquith](http://markjaquith.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-12 21:20:57 > Reluctant to explain the “+apple” in my email address Bought my wife a book tonight. Had to explain to the checkout clerk "no, my last name isn't 'Borders'..." But instead of "+borders" I use ".borders" because a LOT of places don't realize that "+" is a valid character in an e-mail address, and won't let you register with it. It's not automated, like with Gmail and "+apple", but I have a web form where I enter in the alias and it sets up the forwarder... not too much work. ### Does OpenID need to be hard? URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/does-openid-need-to-be-hard/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:41.000Z Prompted by posts by [Randy Reddig](http://ydnar.com/2009/04/openid-and-making-glue.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Tony Stubblebine](http://blog.crowdvine.com/2009/04/02/declining-openid-usage/?ref=chrismessina.me) and a [conversation](http://twitter.com/elliottkember/statuses/1458816948?ref=chrismessina.me) with [Elliott Kember](http://elliottkember.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), I wanted to address, [yet again](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/10/28/openid-usability-is-not-an-oxymoron/?ref=chrismessina.me), the big fat stinking elephant in the room: **OpenID usability and the paradox of choice**. Elliott proposed a pretty clear picture of what he thinks OpenID should look like on [StackOverflow](http://stackoverflow.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), given the relative value of each provider to him: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3415862554/?ref=chrismessina.me)Compare that to how it *actually looks today*: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3417905877/?ref=chrismessina.me)I'm with him. I get it. We're at this crossroads where it really doesn't matter which OpenID provider you use — because while it might save you the hassle of creating yet another password — there's little else that you can do with an OpenID beyond that. And, if you've already got more than one OpenID, not much exists to help you decide [*which* OpenID provider](http://openid.net/get?ref=chrismessina.me) you should use (many people tell me: "I hate OpenID! I've got like 15 OpenIDs and I never know which one to use!"). So on the one hand, [**we've done a poor job of building out the value of *using* an OpenID**](http://blog.kwiqq.com/2009/04/06/social-networks-move-from-openid-to-facebook-connect/?ref=chrismessina.me), and on the other, have [**failed to explain**](http://twitter.com/tonyh/statuses/1458625884?ref=chrismessina.me) **what it means to have an OpenID** (or several) or how to **go about deciding which one to use and why** (hat tip to [OpenID Explained](http://openidexplained.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) for taking a crack at it). Meanwhile, there's a tension between the convenience of having **one *reusable and durable* identity** against the desire to express many *aspects* of one's identity with **many separate IDs**, resulting in complex user interfaces. Fortunately, OpenID as a technology can serve both needs, but communicating and demonstrating that effectively has [remained a challenge](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/26/responding-to-criticisms-about-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me). ### Putting OpenID in context For my part, I've used the metaphor of credit cards to try to explain OpenID: - Online identity is moving from its "cash and check" era to the era of "credit cards". Before the advent of charge cards, payment systems were decentralized — inefficient, cumbersome, and prone to fraud. There were a number of different, non-interoperable payment mechanisms that [took 30+ years to get straightened out](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit%5Fcard?ref=chrismessina.me#History). Indeed, the credit card system that we take for granted today (so much so that airlines have moved to relying on them as the sole form of in-flight payment) only came about in the late 90s, a good 70 years after Western Union began issuing the first credit cards. Imagine OpenID taking 70 years to get mass adoption!! Taking this metaphor at face value, it's clear that we're in the neonatal stages of the build-out of the OpenID network and still have much work ahead of us. Fortunately, adoption cycles have also accelerated — I don't have the actual numbers off-hand, but I can tell you that it took longer than four years to get the [first 500 million](http://openid.net/2009/01/15/momentum/?ref=chrismessina.me) credit card users! - To close out this metaphor, picking an identity provider should be like picking a bank or credit card provider: as a [fourth-party](http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/get-ready-fourth-party-services?ref=chrismessina.me) service provider that advocates for your interest, since you're *their* customer! Today, to Elliott's point, there are not many obvious differences between providers; over time, I expect this to change and for this relationship to become core to one's experience on (and enjoyment of) the web. Instead of agreeing to terms of service that disclaim all responsibility to you, the customer, I hope that competition in the identity space will lead providers to actually take responsibility for their services — charging good money for doing so. If your account gets hacked — no problem! — your identity provider can put back the pieces and make things right again! You could even take out online identity insurance in case your identity is ever stolen — so you can always get back to your life and recover your data without the hassle and interruption when it happens today. Which credit card company would you give your business to? The one that automatically credits back false charges on your account and investigates them or the one that harasses you when you travel and presumes the worst of you? I know which one I'd pick — and I'd apply the same decision heuristics to whoever provides my online identity. As with credit cards, you can have as many OpenIDs as you like for different purposes. I presume that common divisions will fall along work, personal, and [affinity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity%5Fcredit%5Fcard%5Fscheme?ref=chrismessina.me) lines: ![Credit cards](http://img.skitch.com/20090406-d96ws3ub1ac2g69nr1jhxx5gxw.png) ...and of course there are cases I've not even considered yet ### The OpenID "NASCAR" Apart from confusion over having multiple OpenIDs, the user interface that has resulted from having many top-tier providers in the space also causes confusion. [](http://nascar-baby.funnypart.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)Elliott's criticism of the StackOverflow OpenID interface is really aimed at the noise of the brand logos displayed as buttons — intended to help people sign in using an account they already have. This kind of interface is what [Daniel Burka](http://www.deltatangobravo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) refers to as the "OpenID NASCAR" because all the logos look like a NASCAR racecar covered with brand stickers, all jockeying for your attention. He's got a point. Since he's logging in with his Google account, he really only wants a Google button: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3415862554/?ref=chrismessina.me)For all he cares, it could look like this: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3419551861/?ref=chrismessina.me)...and the result would be the same thing. Indeed, it is this kind of *lack of choice* that makes Facebook Connect so seductively compelling. And dangerous. ![fbconnect](http://img.skitch.com/20090407-bbc91wp2xjqgjf5u915bcpxux6.png) It's a frigging button. You can't mistake it. If you argued that reducing choice increases the likelihood that the user will "get it right" and be able to sign in to your site, you'd be correct. But, that kind of restriction of freedom of choice impairs healthy competition in the marketplace. And lack of competition is, generally, bad for the health of an ecosystem, and ultimately bad for the consumer. ### The harmony in the Yin & Yang of Simplicity and Choice Ignoring your actual preference for Coke, if this were the universal experience for buying soda, one might argue that simplicity and fewer choices are better: ![No Choice](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/soda_nochoice.jpg "No Choice") But having choice is a better overall condition. Even when a popular brand is made more prominent, having alternatives means at least maintaining the illusion of control over one's destiny: ![Coke & Others](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/soda_choice.jpg "Coke & Others") (Original [photo](http://www.flickr.com/photos/bcostin/502823804/?ref=chrismessina.me) by Bryan Costin shared under the [Creative Commons license](http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/deed.en?ref=chrismessina.me).)So the question is, how can we simplify OpenID so that anyone can use it without reducing freedom of choice? Well, what if the backend technology was fundamentally interoperable, but every site simply supported a button, like this: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3420396550/?ref=chrismessina.me)...and upon clicking it, a new window would pop open and you'd be presented with a box, in which you could type just about anything: *an email address, a URL, the name of a social network, your phone number*... heck, you could even type your name (and if you were signed into a site like Facebook that leaks basic aspects of your identity), you could select yourself from a list of names and photos and then proceed through the typical OpenID flow to prove that you are who you are, completing the sign in process. One problem that I've observed with OpenID input boxes, to date, is that they look far too similar to another solitary but familiar input box. Namely — the Google search box! ...where anything goes: ![Googlebox](http://img.skitch.com/20090407-nfgsyaqxs5hnb6wtqui26iq14w.png) Given the training that people have learned from using Google, we must balance the need for simplicity with the ability to make an informed personal choice about which identity to present to a site. Needs which are, in many respects, at odds. Yet, the future of OpenID depends on us unraveling these issues and developing suitable interfaces that are streamlined and straight-forward that also enhance individual freedom. With the recently approved [User Interface Working Group](http://wiki.openid.net/OpenID-User-Interface-Work-Group-Proposal?ref=chrismessina.me), headed up by [Allen Tom](http://allentom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) from Yahoo!, and with the [involvement of folks from Facebook](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/02/04/welcoming-facebook-to-the-openid-foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me) and other organizations, I'm optimistic that we will make considerable progress this year. And that ultimately, no, OpenID need not be hard. Making it so just won't happen overnight. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Cesar H Castro Jr](http://www.cesarhcjr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-06 21:13:07 This is just a simple observation but why would the "Log in with OpenID" (image) above promote any provider. I mean take your comment form, for example, it simply shows OpenID Enabled (with logo) next to Website with a slide down explanation. I personally think showing this next to a Login label would suffice and invoke more interest. I find it easier to insert a simple url than having to jump through login systems to leave a friggin comment. **[NM](http://ni-x-ar.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-06 23:10:21 I love the idea behind OpenID. I hate the implementation -- HTTP URLs are completely wrong for this puprpose. But the main problem with OpenID accessibility-wise is the potential for phishing. It trains people to entenr their, say, Google login credentials in a dangerous context. It will not happen all the time, but people will get used to being asked to authenticate to their OpenID provider from random websites. Most people aren't able to grok the URL bar. **[DC Crowley](http://doncrowley.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-06 23:39:03 I hate to say this... but if I can choose between clicking on an openID button or a facebook connect button I'll use facebook. It's a one click wonder. When openID can sort that it might get some where. The whole ethos is too principled and mot pragmatic. All any one wants is something that works and is damn easy... like facebook connect. Open ID is becoming irrelevant imo - I'm not hating on you guys. This is a wake up call. If it's so important then make it easy peasy to use. **Todd** ¡ 2009-04-07 03:12:38 Still do not understand the stubborn use of geek only language for the concept at hand. "Sign In", "Sign on", "Log on", "Log In", "Access", etc. do not register with non-geeks. Those are all UNIX administrator terms. If all the identity providers would use the same big button that says \*ENTER\*, then prompt for whatever, it would help. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 05:14:43 @Cesar: someday, perhaps. But most people today don't know (and don't care) what OpenID is, let alone whether they have one. People respond to brands -- so if they can say "Oh! Yahoo! I have one of those!" the chance that they'll be able to sign in goes up. @NM: I don't buy the phishing argument. People are being trained to enter their credentials into any website, whether in a redirect or not. With OpenID, if you're savvy, you can can increase the security of your accounts as you want; traditional username/passwords don't allow me to set my own security preferences -- and if I cycle between, say two or three passwords, it only takes one site leaking my password to hose me. I much prefer using fewer passwords in fewer places. As for OpenID as URLs -- this was my point at the end of my post -- as well as why I've pushed for email-style identifiers. @DC: ...which is the whole point of my post! First, not everyone has a Facebook; second, even those who do may not want to use just one account everywhere, in which you may actually be losing customers! @Todd: I hear you, but "Enter" betrays what's actually happening, which is substantiating identity -- who you are (or claim to be). It's more than entry, since you want entry to YOUR stuff, not everyone's. I think "Connect" is gaining because it's like opening a pipe to your data -- creating a connection (as you do with friends). I actually like the term, but it's not accurate for what OpenID actually does, today. **[DC Crowley](http://doncrowley.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 05:25:39 I get your point Chris, really I do. You want choice - I want easy peasy :D One point though you mention there "“Enter” betrays what’s actually happening, which is substantiating identity". 99% don't care what is happening. They just want to enter. Look at Lifestreaming or APML. No one could be bothered to set it up for themselves. Yet facebook does exactly that at the click of an enter button. Same with driving a car, opening a refrigerator, turning on a tap - I just want to get from A to B, I just want a cold beer, I just want to wash my hands. **[Santosh Rajan](http://santrajan.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 06:52:22 The Single button sign in is possible with the existing infrastructure. I what to bounce it off you sometime. I enjoyed the post. **[Allen Tom](http://allentom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 08:41:48 All OpenID Providers that support the soon-to-be-finalized Popup Mode will have an OpenID sign in UX identical to Facebook Connect. Unfortunately, we still have not found the best Call To Action for Relying Parties to display on their login screen. The NASCAR buttons still seem to be the best practice. I think there's a lot of potential with displaying a freeform text box, and encouraging the user to enter their @gmail/yahoo/hotmail/myspace \[or other OpenID enabled\] email address. The problem with the NASCAR buttons, as Brian Ellin pointed out, is that once you stick an OP button on your site, you can never get rid of it, unless you're willing to lose the users who sign in using the button. **[Elliott Kember](https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawk0fUjYXrFtLvh1O5wAFmixHgMRwUcc53w&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 08:53:29 Good article, Chris, but your soda-machine idea is back-to-front. I want one button for every outcome. That means one button for Fanta, one button for Coke, and one button for 7UP. That's how a soda machine works. If it only serves Coke, it has to only have one choice button - Coke. Otherwise, each button should serve a different purpose. I know what I want from the machine, so I know what to choose. You've given me 5 different buttons for Coke. That's 5 different buttons for the same outcome, and that's confusing. Which do I choose? That's what the problem is here - OpenID includes loads of different buttons which have the same outcome: signing in. **[Daryl](http://www.darylfritz.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 09:02:29 I definitely think entering a URL is confusing to non-techies... something /like/ an email address would be more appropriate. However, the last a lot of people want to do is continue to leak their email address everywhere. It's just asking for spam. Maybe a centralized solution like username@openidprovider would be better suited? **[Dick Hardt](http://identity20.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 10:01:15 Great to see you driving the dialog Chris. Enabling the user to not have to type something in will give OpenID much more appeal to the user. An active client can deal with the usability and security issues. Not saying we require an active client, so still want someone to be able to use OpenID on a machine with no client -- but that could be the exception instead of the rule. **mona** ¡ 2009-04-07 10:12:25 I consider myself fairly internet savvy, especially compared to the general population. I thought I understood the idea behind OpenID when I registered, but for some reason it has never been simple for me to use. EVER. I am sure I could figure out its intended use if I gave it ten minutes of trying to understand, but I think it should be easy enough to just use without researching further. It's not. At least it hasn't been for me. I think it's dumb. Sorry, just my opinion. **[chunter](http://chunter.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 10:15:02 I agree that the purpose of OpenIDs is not explained thoroughly enough. I was reading some of your past works and thought to myself, if Web 2.0 is about openness, why are so many social websites closed environments? You have inadvertently just answered a question I just tweeted on twitter here; I was asking if it's normal or acceptable to make an account to broadcast tweets (and reply to them) and a listening account to follow the feeds that tweet news way too often, and I think the answer is yes. **[David Recordon](http://www.davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 12:05:49 Agreed with Dick that smart clients can really make the discovery of your OpenID Provider quite a bit easier! Wrote about this a few months ago (http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/12/getting-openid-into-the-browse.html) using some of the same metaphors as applications like 1Password on the desktop. We're basically asking for a world where once you click that universal sign in button it figures out the right brands to show you depending on who you are and what you're trying to do. For me that's OpenID, for my Mom that's Google and for my Uncle that's Microsoft. **[Khurt Williams](http://islandinthenet.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 12:11:14 I find that Facebook is becoming the most pervasive of the sign-in options I see. Most likely this is due to the ease of use. Click the button, login to facebook, and .. boom I'm in. That being said, facebook is the least useful one for me. When I comment on a blog that requires registration I want to link back to my blog, not to my facebook profile. Some sites don't allow the use of OpenID, they only use Facebook for Google connections. Sometimes I just move along because I can't be "who" I want to be. **[Nathan de Vries](http://www.atnan.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 16:27:46 I am working on a site at the moment that attempts to solve this exact problem. My solution has a number of parts: \* Find out whether the user has been to various sites such as GMail, Facebook, Yahoo, Flickr etc. using the Javascript "visited" CSS pseudoclass hack. \* Only display the providers the user is most likely to have been to. i.e. don't show AOL if the user hasn't visited AOL (avoid the Nascar effect wherever possible). \* Each provider link should just be a button. A text box should appear prompting for the users' username only if the OpenID URL for that provider requires it (sites like Yahoo and Google don't require the username in the OpenID URL, but sites like AOL/Wordpress/LiveJournal do). \* If the user clicks the plain-old OpenID provider button, give them a URL since they clearly know what they're doing. The aim is to assist the user who thinks "oh yeah, I have a Gmail account I could use", but doesn't need or want to know about the OpenID URL scheme for it...even if it's auto-filled for them. **[Kevin Marks](http://epeus.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 17:30:02 The irony of this for me is striking, as Google Friend Connect, which lets you make any website accept OpenID in minutes, has a UX that solves that problem. What it does is check if you are already logged in via Google, and if so it doesn't show the 'pick an OpenID provider' dialog, but assumes you want to use Google. The irony is that because so may of you are Google users, you didn't notice it was using OpenID. Obviously it would be good if this could be extended to know what other sites you already have logins with. As for 'little else that you can do with an OpenID beyond that', the real value comes when you can couple an OpenID to a PortableContacts endpoint via OAuth, so logging in can bring your profile and friends too, and in future add an Activity Streams endpoint too, so that your activities can flow back to your preferred aggregator. Friend Connect does this now by connecting disparate services that provide subsets of these features, but as more sites adopt the open standards they will be supported too. **[Cesar H Castro Jr](http://www.cesarhcjr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 17:34:47 I might be a little off subject. But here's an Idea - why couldn't OpenID's be a pull vice push method. If OpenID could gather up my Other so called "Identities" (maybe through OAuth) from Google, Yahoo!, Facebook, Myspace etc.. and convey it somehow, maybe the OpenID logo surrounded by the providers with little arrows pointing in. That way it wouldn't matter how you logged into any OpenID enabled site. If its through an email address or URL, OpenID would only ask that you verify yourself. You could then also have some sort of browser add-on/extension that would automagically log you into any OpenID enabled website without having to manually enter creditials repeatedly. **[NM](http://ni-x-ar.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 17:34:49 I have to wonder why blogger often asks me for my login/password with browser password fill-in disabled. That's just begging for phishers to 'sploit it, just register wwwblogger.com or somesuch, copy a few files, and you've got yourself a brand new^Wused Google account. **[John Panzer](http://www.abstractioneer.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 20:48:41 If every RP knew my preferred OP, the problem would be effectively solved. Facebook Connect solves this by simplifying the set of OPs to one - Facebook. OpenID can go a couple of routes, either push this down into the browser, or set up a centralized preferences store that tracks one's OP preference and provides a level of indirection for RPs. Google Friend Connect approximates the kind of experience you'd have with the latter. I'm starting to think that we need to choose our poison: Centralized component or browser extension? **[Jarrett](http://jvance.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 21:25:11 I wrote another one of those javascript openid selectors that uses jQuery so its tiny and flexible http://jvance.com/pages/JQueryOpenIDPlugin.xhtml **[Minal](http://minal.gulabdas.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 21:26:31 Since jumping on the OpenId bandwagon, I have only had the luxury to use it on stackoverflow and 39signals. The idea behind it is very sound. Recently I have been really annoyed in having to sign up/register on sites to even leave comments. This is just painful, considering that 1 month later I will forget the username/password. While using openId, the stackoverflow model works wonderfully. Why will I want a popup when I could do it directly on the page I am at. The less I have to do, the better. After all, who doesn't have a google/yahoo/msn login already?? **Abe** ¡ 2009-04-07 21:27:04 I hate OpenID for a couple of reasons. I am a software engineer, and even after reading a bunch of stuff about OpenID and getting how it works in principle, all the UIs I am presented with to actually use it are so confusing that I wonder how to use it. And when I actually go to the trouble of trying to use it, it generally does not work. stackoverflow.com is the only website for which it works for me consistently. All others, like blogger.com, typically fail at some point during the authentication. I also don't want to be logged in to any service for long due to the increased security risks it causes. **Marthinus** ¡ 2009-04-07 22:15:29 I love the Facebook login, especially on sites like StackOverflow or Kotaku or any of those, I mean it is a social site where I can read comments or leave comments, why do I need all these choices. 75 Mil people are on FB, why not give me FB on every social site everywhere, must quicker and hell it is not like it is a financial site. When it comes to Amazon then I agree no FB button, to easy to get my financial details then. **Vittorio** ¡ 2009-04-08 06:07:32 Hi there, good discussion :-) Some bigger-picture comments at http://blogs.msdn.com/vbertocci/archive/2009/04/08/one-does-not-simply-walk-into-mordor-or-home-realm-discovery-for-the-internet.aspx **Jason** ¡ 2009-04-08 06:17:24 You fucked up OpenID when you welcomed Yahoo and Google in with open arms with their bastardized OID implementation. Many of us said it was going to fuck it up but you were so desperate for support that just went along and pretended nothing was wrong. Now OpenID has to become something else if it's to survive. Something that's not longer decentralized. We have to rely on 3-4 major providers so we don't have 50000 freaking icons at the login prompt. **[Ashish Jain](http://ashishjain.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-08 08:07:13 \- You do want the decentralized model where anyone can become an OP. - The RPs don't have to add a new button for every new OP that comes on board. - The users shouldn't have to type in URL. - Users should be able to dictate their preference (either at RP via cookie or via a browser extension) and then don't see the Nascar page again. - The unified button should have a link to bring up the Nascar page if the user decides to choose his preferred OP. http://itickr.com/?p=119 - Ashish **[Brian Ellin](http://brianellin.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-08 17:06:22 I love the discussion happening here! What is the interface inside the popup? One concern I have with the "Universal OpenID Sign In Button" that you propose here is that is just moves the existing interfaces we've seen into a popup. It does have the benefit of adding a universal call to action, but I believe we'll see the same Nascar style patterns repeated inside the popup window. I agree with Dick and David that we need to work towards building smart clients and browsers that are aware of OP preference. **[Pelle](http://voxpelli.se/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-10 11:51:41 Two thoughts: 1\. Bookmarklet + standardized identification of OpenID form. Add your OpenID providers bookmarklet to your browser - click on it when you are about to log in to an OpenID enabled site and it finds the form through some microformat-like classes and auto-fills in your URL and submits the form. 2\. OpenID deed The Creative Commons has done a very good job of describing very complex like licenses in a very easy to understand way. Maybe the OpenID Foundation should do the same thing for OpenID and provide a very short and easy description of what OpenID is. Also providing a more or less standardized button that can be linked to it, like Creative Commons does, so that web site creators doesn't have to describe OpenID themselves. **mark** ¡ 2009-08-09 08:20:32 I really don't get the problem here. Why does everyone try to support 500,000 OID providers? There's no point. Pick 2 or 3 for your site, and implement them. HTTP is a protocol that lets me view web pages, but do I try to include \*every\* web page on one of my sites? no. OID is a protocol that let's me verify user identities. There's no benefit of trying to include \*every\* openID provider to the point of being confusing. Yahoo doesn't give you anything valuable as a consumer, so don't even use it. What's the point? Oh no, some yahoo users don't use comments.... Maybe you'd make up for it by getting more comments from google users. I'm building some OID plugins for my sites right now, but I actually don't see a benefit to supporting Yahoo. I get nothing but a huge complicated string to identify the person. Wow, thanks. I almost want your users if it's going to be that much work on my end. So, goodbye yahoo. Eventually, crappy OID providers will die off because no sites support them (unless all sites support them because geeks like to solve pointless challenges of supporting lame OPs) Vote with your wallet - or website - don't support every OID provider. Pick the ones that help you as a consumer. The reason people use FBConnect is because you can get their first and last names, picture URL, maybe some names of friends, some interests, etc etc. With google federated login, it took a little research just to get what language the user speaks. FB's limited choice has helped, but if they treated their ID consumers like google or yahoo, it wouldn't have the popularity it has today. **[Allen Tom](http://openid.yahoo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-08-11 18:27:54 Sites that want to use Simple Registration or Attribute Exchange with the Yahoo OpenID provider should send a message to openid-feedback \[at\] yahoo-inc dot com to enable it. In contrast to Facebook Connect, both Yahoo and Google will share the user's email address, allowing the relying party to directly contact the user. **RD** ¡ 2009-11-01 21:59:17 I have 3 open ids & trust I still am not able to figure how properly to use it. There is not one site that tells how to use them for somebody like who is not a comp-techie :(( **[Data Without Borders Episode 7: Report from the Internet Identity Workshop :: Data Without Borders](http://datawithoutborders.net/dwb7/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-09 08:58:57 \[...\] The real problem with NASCAR \[...\] **[Emir Bukva](http://ebukva.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-19 17:34:14 I think a big problem that the general public has with current implementations is the name used on links and buttons. "Use OpenID"; "Log in with OpenID"; "Sign in with OpenID" all have a tendency to confuse people because they contain "OpenID" and people have no idea what that means. Yes, I know it's the name of the thing but imagine me asking you to "use Refeget!" Would you have any idea what I'm referring to? (It's a made up word that means nothing). "Conncect with Facebook" works primarily because Facebook is so popular but it's also successful because people get it. I think microformats detection plug-ins suffer from the same problem. Most of them detect "hCards" instead of "Contacts" or "hCalendards" instead of "Events". Designers fight trench battles to persuade hospitals to use nomenclatures such as "Ear/Nose/Throat" rather than "Otolaryngology" when doing wayfinding systems and I bet more people would know what "Otolaryngology" means compared to "OpenID". I don't really have a solution, but there must be a way to separate the name of the technology from the language used in the interface to guide actions. Something along the lines of "Conncect with existing account" maybe? If I can use an account I already have, great. If not, guide a sign-up workflow for a preferred openID provider. **[Unintended Side Effects - SxDSalon: A group blog on social interaction design](http://blog.sxdsalon.org/2009/11/21/unintended-side-effects/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-22 23:43:25 \[...\] Now when I go onto a site, a site wanting to embrace open standards, a site committed to allowing their users to sign in with authentication credentials they already have, I am assaulted by a thousand logos and options, usually in addition to the ability to create a new account. Chris Messina, labels this the Nascar problem. \[...\] **[Google Users Profiles Are OpenID Enabled – Spread OpenID](http://spreadopenid.org/?p=144&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-25 13:47:02 \[...\] Google has been an OpenID provider since October 2008 already. However users had to remember a rather cryptic URL, www.google.com/accounts/o8/id, which was the same for all users. Alternatively, relying parties and users could rely on the Google login button (see below), which led to the infamous NASCAR problem of OpenID, a term coined by Daniel Burka and made famous by Chris Messina. \[...\] **[Designing for the gut | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/11/27/designing-for-the-gut/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-28 09:27:58 \[...\] experience with choice is an engineer’s solution that I’ve come to accept is bound to fail. Instead, the act of selecting an identity to “perform as” must happen early in \[...\] **[OpenID Connect | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2010/01/04/openid-connect/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-04 15:59:07 \[...\] been thinking about how we make OpenID both easier and sexier for quite a while now. As frustrating as the answer may be to technologists, the problem \[...\] **[Links for 2010-01-11 | the fabulous freak](http://www.joaoalmeida.info/2010/01/links-for-2010-01-11/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-11 11:39:50 \[...\] Does OpenID need to be hard? \[FactoryCity\] \[...\] **[Some links for light reading (7/4/09) « Max Design](http://russ.davidmcdonald.org/2009/04/07/some-links-223/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-29 03:18:01 \[...\] Does OpenID need to be hard? \[...\] **[Chris Hills](http://www.chaz6.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-02-12 05:30:31 The OpenID I use most often is an i-name ("=chris.hills" or "xri://=chris.hills") since it is short and sweet, and has proper service discovery through xrds. http://dev.inames.net/wiki/XRI\_and\_OpenID **[Designing for the gut - SxDSalon: A group blog on social interaction design](http://blog.sxdsalon.org/2009/11/27/designing-for-the-gut/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-02-14 10:31:35 \[...\] experience with choice is an engineer’s solution that I’ve come to accept is bound to fail. Instead, the act of selecting an identity to “perform as” must happen early in \[...\] **[Blair](http://www.goodsignal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-07-31 08:05:20 I like Emir's point about the name OpenId and the possibility that people who don't live and work around the internet might not understand the name and what it entails. I'm assuming they tested that name? **[Stephan Wehner](http://buckmaster.ca/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-08-11 00:43:26 \- Would be nice if the open-id-provider selection could be left to the browser! - Also since it is so easy to set up an open-id provider, I think a website admin should care which providers are used. Stephan ### One day left for early-bird discounts to the Internet Identity Workshop URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/one-day-left-for-early-bird-discounts-to-the-internet-identity-workshop/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:24.000Z [](http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)I'll be attending the upcoming [Internet Identity Workshop](http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (IIW) May 18-20, 2009 at the [Computer History Museum](http://www.computerhistory.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) in Mountain View, California. The event [started in 2005](http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/?page%5Fid=2&ref=chrismessina.me) and has become a [staple](http://self-issued.info/?p=114&ref=chrismessina.me) of the identity community over the past several years, contributing to the [emergence of technologies like OpenID and OAuth](http://googleonlinesecurity.blogspot.com/2009/03/why-googlers-attend-internet-identity.html?ref=chrismessina.me). This year's event promises to continue the conversations begun at the [first](http://sites.google.com/site/oauthgoog/UXFedLogin/09nov-uxsummit?ref=chrismessina.me) and [second](http://www.slideshare.net/event/openid-design-summit-redux?ref=chrismessina.me) OpenID Design Summits, and will, for the first time, delve into some of the activity streams work with which I've been engaged for over a year now. **Through April 1, you can** [**register**](iiw8.eventbrite.com/) **to receive the early bird rate.** Considering the caliber of folks who will be in attendance and the importance of the work that gets done there, IIW is definitely an event worth attending! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Ludovico Fischer](http://ludovf.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-06 10:12:09 This looks tremendous. But it's 5000 km aways and I am already travelling enormously this year! I'll keep it in mind for next year and good luck (and I will enable OpenID delegation on my site, promised)! ### My name is not a URL URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/my-name-is-not-a-url/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:45.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3351679861/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Arrington](http://www.myspace.com/mikearrington?ref=chrismessina.me) has [a post](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/12/facebook-getting-serious-about-vanity-urls/?ref=chrismessina.me) that claims that Facebook is getting wise to something MySpace has known from the start - users love vanity URLs. I don't buy it. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the omission of vanity URLs on Facebook is an intentional design decision from the beginning, and one that I've learned to appreciate over time. From what I've gathered, it was co-founder Dustin Moskovitz's stubbornness that kept Facebook from allowing the use of pseudonymic usernames common on previous-generation social networks like AOL. Considering that Mark Zuckerberg's plan is to [build an online version of the relationships we have in real life](http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/16/technology/hempel%5Ffacebook.fortune/?ref=chrismessina.me), it only makes sense that we should, therefore, call our friends by their IRL names — not the ones left over or suggested by a computer. But there's actually something deeper going on here — something [that I talked about](http://www.archive.org/details/DrupalconDC2009-OurIdentityOnline?ref=chrismessina.me) at [DrupalCon](http://dc2009.drupalcon.org/node/4222?ref=chrismessina.me) — because there are *at least* two good uses for letting people set their own vanity URLs — three if your service somehow surfaces usernames as an interface *handle*: 1. Uniqueness and remembering 2. Search engine optimization 3. Facilitating member-to-member communication (as in the case of Twitter's @replies) For my own sake, I've lately begun decreasing the distance between my real identity and my online persona, [switching](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/03/02/rip-factoryjoe/?ref=chrismessina.me) from [@factoryjoe](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me) to [@chrismessina](http://twitter.com/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me) on Twitter. While there are plenty of folks who know me by my digital moniker, there are far more who don't and shouldn't need to in order to interact with me. When considering SEO, it's quite obvious that Google has already [picked up on the correlation](http://www.google.com/search?q=chris+messina&ref=chrismessina.me): [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3351726649/?ref=chrismessina.me)Ironically, in [Dustin's case](http://www.google.com/search?q=Dustin+Moskovitz&ref=chrismessina.me) (intentionally or not) he is not an authority for his own name on Google (despite the uniqueness of his name). Instead, semi-nefarious sites like Spock use SEO to get prominent placement for Dustin's name (whether he likes it or not): [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3351696019/?ref=chrismessina.me)Finally, in cases like Twitter, IM or IRC, nicknames or handles are used explicitly to refer to other people on the system, even if (or *especially* if!) real identities are never revealed. While this separation can afford a number of perceived benefits, long-term it's hard to quantify the net value of pseudonymity when most assholes on the web seem to act out most aggressively when shrouding their real names. By shunning vanity URLs for its members, Facebook has achieved three things: 1. Establishes a new baseline for transparent online identity 2. Avoids the naming collision problem by scoping relationships within a person's \[reciprocal\] social graph 3. Upgrades expectations for human interaction on social websites That everyone on Facebook has to use their real name (and Facebook will root out and disable accounts with pseudonyms), there's a higher degree of accountability because legitimate users are forced to reveal who they are offline. No more "funnybunny345" or "daveman692" creeping around and leaving harassing wall posts on your profile; you know exactly who left the comment because their name is attached to their account. Go through the comments on TechCrunch and compare those left by Facebook users with those left by everyone else. In my brief analysis, Facebook commenters tend to take their commenting more seriously. It's [not a guarantee](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3368709748/?ref=chrismessina.me), but there is definitely a correlation between durable identity and higher quality participation. Now, one might point out that, without unique usernames, you'd end up with a bunch of name collisions — and you'd be right. However, combining search-by-email with profile photos largely eliminates this problem, and since Facebook requires bidirectional friendship confirmation, it's going to be hard to get the *wrong* "Mike Smith" showing up in your social graph. So instead of futzing with (and probably forgetting) what strange username your friend uses, you can just search by (*concept!*) their real name using Facebook's type-ahead find. And with autocompletion, you'll never spell it wrong (of course Gmail has had this for ages as well). Let me make a logical leap here and point out here that this is the new namespace — the human-friendly namespace — that [Tim O'Reilly](http://radar.oreilly.com/tim?ref=chrismessina.me) observed emerging when he [defined Web 2.0](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/12/web-20-compact-definition-tryi.html?ref=chrismessina.me), pointing out that a [future source of lock-in](http://elapsedtime.blogspot.com/2009/03/hey-get-off-my-name-username-disputes.html?ref=chrismessina.me) would be "owning a namespace". This is why [location-based services are so hot](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/05/05/when-location-is-everywhere/?ref=chrismessina.me). This is also why it matters who gets out in front first by developing a database of places named by humans — rather than by their official names. When it comes to search, search will get better when you can bound it — to the confluence of your known world and the known/colloquial world of your social graph. When I was in San Diego a couple weeks back, it dawned on me that if I searched for "Joe's Crab Shack", no search engine on earth would be able to give me a satisfying result... *unless* it knew where I was. Or where I had been. Or, where *my friends* had been. This is where [social search and computer-augmented social search becomes powerful](http://brynnevans.com/blog/2009/01/30/why-social-search-wont-topple-google-anytime-soon/?ref=chrismessina.me) (see [Aardvark](http://vark.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Not just that, but this is where owning a database of given names tied to real things becomes hugely powerful (see [Foursquare](http://playfoursquare.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)). This is where social objects with human-given names become the [spimatic web](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262693267?ie=UTF8&tag=factorycity-20&link%5Fcode=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=0262693267&ref=chrismessina.me). So, as this plays out, success will find the designer who most nearly replicates the world offline *online*. Consider: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3352626738/?ref=chrismessina.me)vs: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3352515898/?ref=chrismessina.me)and: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3376410744/?ref=chrismessina.me)vs. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3375591045/?ref=chrismessina.me)Ignoring content, it seems to me that the latter examples are much easier to grok without knowing anything about Facebook or Twitter — and are much closer approximations of real life. Moreover, in [EventBox](http://thecosmicmachine.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), there is evidence that we truly are in a transitional period, where a large number of people still identity themselves or know their friends by usernames, but an increasing number of newcomers are more comfortable using real names (click to enlarge): [](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3620/3376452886%5F745bbc14b2%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me)We're only going to see more of this kind of thing, where the [data-driven design approach](http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html?ref=chrismessina.me) will give way to a more overall humane aesthetic. It begins by calling people by the names we humans prefer to — and will always — use. And I think Facebook got it right by leaving out the vanity URLs. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Adam Jackson](http://twitter.com/adamjackson?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-21 17:34:51 Long time reader, first time commenter. I believe the only people interested in vanity URLs are those of us that are early adopters and want to secure "adamjackson" as their facebook URL. I'd like to have it but in the case of MySpace, I tried to secure adamjackson during the first week this was available and was stuck with adamjackson1984 which really sucked! Short story is, vanity URLs benefit those of us who really need the vanity. The rest of us are stuck with "fuzzybunn69" and it's better to just not have a static url at that point. I agree with you that Facebook would be better off just keeping things IRL names with a profile # but part of me would like my own unique name on Facebook and I promise to use my real name. **[Diana Martin](http://www.cyber-anthro.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-21 17:48:26 As far as real dialog on Facebook versus other sites - I did a content analysis on the Presidential Candidate's sites back in May of 08 where I analyzed the dialog on their YouTube, Facebook and MySpace pages during one of the primaries (in real time) and my conclusion was actually the same. Facebook commenters did seem to take their comments more seriously, and they seemed to be more on task/ on target than on the other sites. Plus, there was real dialog going on and not just off handed comments. It could be because of the way the site is implemented - or because it forces the use of your real identity, that was not what I was there to determine - but may make an interesting future study! **Fred Zeats** ¡ 2009-03-21 17:49:44 Actually, Facebook's mania over so-called 'real names' means that most people who know me can't find me because most people who know me do not know my 'real' name. I have a friend who is a DJ who has the exact same problem as his 'real' name is 'Ernest' and only the people who went to grade-school with him know that. **Fred Zeats** ¡ 2009-03-21 17:55:11 Oh, one more thing, Facebook assumes that your online life is the same thing as your real life. This is true for some percentage of people on the Internet. It is by no means true for everyone. My "real" life has nothing whatsoever to do with my online life. **[William Gunn](http://williamgunn.pip.verisignlabs.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-21 18:15:07 It's not about names, it's about identity. Which of the two identity tokens asked for above is more useful in terms of identity, the OpenID URL, or my name? The things about using your real name encouraging responsible commenting is often made, but it's a heuristic strategy that only works half-ass now and is only going to get worse. **Luke Shepard** ¡ 2009-03-21 18:20:30 Great analysis, Chris, and I think you got to the heart of what Dustin was looking for. For your reasons, I think #2 - SEO is actually not that important for individuals. Dustin is a celebrity, so perhaps an exception, but for me my personal url has my name in it regardless and is the first hit for a vanity search: http://www.facebook.com/people/Luke-Shepard/2901279 In fact, in some ways it helps SEO. If there are multiple Luke Shepard's in the world (and there are) then each of them has an equal shot at the SEO top place, and search engines can figure out whether to put them there based on context. And if, like on Facebook, search is determined by your social graph, then having real names makes it more likely that you'll find who you're looking for. **[Mitch](http://friendfeed.com/mitch?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-21 20:42:58 But they \*do\* use vanity URLs: http://www.facebook.com/gary **Todd** ¡ 2009-03-22 06:38:52 This post is makes some valid points but... Chris you are "interwebz famous", deservedly so because of all the great work you do. That affords you the ability to brush of the need for unique user IDs. I bet the SEO and findabiltiy for "Chis Messina" works really well for you - vanity URLs be damned. But what about us great unwashed masses? I, a total no one, not interwebz famous, do not enjoy having people I know, prospective employers, etc. just type my name into Google and have it come up page one. There are thousands with the same first and last name. If a plain old no one like me were to abandon my unique username, I would forfeit all of the recent discoveries, connections, phone calls and even emails ( Gasp! ). Just some thoughts from the ghetto, a perspective that "daveman692" and "factoryjoe" may not take into consideration. P.S. Jump on over to whitepages (dot) com and enter John Smith - what are those folks supposed to do? **[Allen Tom](http://allentom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 10:31:48 An internet without personas and handles would be just as boring as real life. **i-Names Sayitall** ¡ 2009-03-22 10:46:27 My name is an I-Name....... =david.l.woolfenden **[Dinis Correia](http://diniscorreia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 10:54:19 Hmm I believe these vanity URLs are only available on Public Profiles (aka, the old "Pages), right? Arrington says Kevin Rose got a vanity URL when, in fact, he did got a vanity URL for a Public Profile (aka Page), not for \*his profile\* - and Facebook has done that in the past with other brands/artists/whatever. **[Crystal Beasley](http://www.stepchangegroup.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 11:06:20 I think your observation that durable, real identities will make us behave better is spot on. Well socialized folks have an innate need to behave according to the rules of the group. The more accountable we are to our community, however widespread geographically, the better. I would argue that twitter, in my community at least, is very much connected to my real identity. It's linked to my personal and employer's websites. I know or would like to meet the vast percentage of the people I follow. I'm certainly not going to misbehave on twitter and believe that's the case for my friends as well. There's much to be learned from our offline social interactions as well. The way we behave in traffic holds some interesting insights. "Drivers in convertibles with the tops down are less likely to honk than those with the top up. \[...\] And drivers are more likely to honk at people from another state or country than their own." - from http://tomvanderbilt.com/traffic/some-things-about-traffic-that-may-surprise-you/ Both of these phenomena are related to anonymity. Is Facebook using real names the equivalent of driving with your top down? Perhaps. Presumably people from another state are much less likely to know who you are. Give us the tools to know who's who and we'll all benefit. **Carson** ¡ 2009-03-22 11:38:29 I'm pretty sure Facebook will be opening up vanity URLs for its pages and not its users...which makes a lot more sense. Have you seen vitamin waters latest commercial? It ends by flashing the URL facebook.com/vitaminwater This would Work for popular individuals just fine... There are probably many people with the name tom hanks' on Facebook, but only one Tom Hanks. **[William Gunn](http://williamgunn.pip.verisignlabs.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 12:30:35 Crystal, your points apply to identites, but not necessarily to given names. The idea of requiring real names is bad from a useability perspective, too. Let people call themselves whatever they want, and fill in as much or as little profile information as they want. Fake Steve Jobs was funny, so let's get over this verified identity nonsense. **[Crystal Beasley](http://www.stepchangegroup.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 12:44:41 Carson > Facebook has been giving out vanity URLs for some time now. We've worked with them to get our clients' names, eg. facebook.com/goldsgym. FB recently implemented a policy regarding this so that vanity URLs are available only to companies that spend more than $50k in advertising. William > I'm not arguing that given names are the answer for every site. I do think that having a place of trusted identity is useful. It will be interesting to see how single sign-on plays out. Is verified identity a core dependency for its success? **Capri** ¡ 2009-03-22 12:52:26 I dislike the term "vanity url" for an url with somebody's name in it. Vanity has nothing to do with it, or at least, wouldn't in my case. People like simpler urls, and if a site or profile can be made simpler by being named a name rather than a seemingly long string of random numbers and letters, it's just more convenient all around. They need to ditch the term "vanity" for this type of url and call them "name urls" instead. **enoss** ¡ 2009-03-22 13:49:13 this is an issue that we have been thinking about a LOT as we (Tucows) own the largest collection of surname domain names in the world (lastname.com/net/org). http://opensrs.com/personalnames/ surname domain names are in three places, one-off companies (ford.com), one-off geeks (shirky.com, searls.com) and our collection. speak to a geek who has their own surname and it is always because of obscurity or early action. most importantly, ask them if they would take some ungodly sum of money for it. I do. the answer is always NO! having an eponymous Internet identity is priceless. **[Dane Deasy](http://www.danedeasy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 14:02:01 Great article. Will Tweet it now. **[William Gunn](http://williamgunn.pip.verisignlabs.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 14:10:36 Crystal, if by verified identity you mean "proof you're the owner of this URL", then sure. If by verified identity you mean "proof that whatever you typed in the Name: field is the same as what's printed on your birth certificate", then I remain unconvinced. If you can have an identity without a name(as a certain artist formerly known as an unpronounceable symbol did), then certainly you can have identity without the name your parents gave you. There are people I interact with online who I trust, but don't know much about other than their track record of being insightful, informed, and intelligent. If I met dekaysion in real life and he came up to me and introduced himself as dekay, that would be fine with me. Knowing his real name doesn't make me trust him more or less, because he's got at least as much reputation connected to dekay as to his real name. I've introduced myself to people as Mr. Gunn IRL because that's the only name they know. More importantly, there remains a need for people to have multiple identities(professional and hobby-related, for example), which is entirely incompatible with mandatory "Real Names". **[franzstehrn](http://friendfeed.com/franzstehrn?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 15:42:05 also it sucks, that someone with a personal relationship to a company like facebook is being treated differently than the average user. why does loic le meur get facebook.com/loic and not any other [loic?](http://friendfeed.com/e/503bc3e9-d5ff-358e-4623-5066f32f88c8/vanity-urls-what-are-the-criteria-on-which/?ref=chrismessina.me) **[dave mcclure](http://500hats.typepad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 17:48:26 yeah that DaveMan692 guy \*is\* a little sketchy... always skulking around us Real Daves. ban his ass all over the web i say. **Ken** ¡ 2009-03-22 20:57:34 You make some very good points, but "first+last" is not how all my real-world relationships work. Real names as identities work great for some, and horrible for others. My name (first+last) is so common that I've had friends tell me they were unable to find me with web searches, unless they type in my "online name". And I have friends who I call by their last name, or (if they have an obnoxiously long name) by some nickname. Using first+last on Facebook sounds great (if I used Facebook, and if it worked for my name), but it doesn't scale for users: I can't use it on GMail or Flickr or Twitter or for my domain name. My online persona will always (barring an overhaul of the DNS system, or a name change on my part) need a unique identifier. **Bill** ¡ 2009-03-22 21:07:07 What the heck is the spimatic web? Did I miss an important blog post on Friendfeed? **Mike Monteiro** ¡ 2009-03-22 21:19:06 I'll go ahead and bite since you used me as your "bad" example. "success will find the designer who most nearly replicates the world offline online." Defining success as replicating the offline world online is but one possible success strategy, and as far as I'm concerned a really boring one. The online world is full of too much possibility for for merely mapping an offline reality to it. But I suppose if your self-worth is tied to your SEO optimization then enjoy it. **[Otto](http://ottootto.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 22:00:56 I only read the good part. I have an opinion: I like people to know me as Otto. the only otto on the internet that REALLY has something important to say. it's my job to say things that are important and to talk to THE GOVERNMENT about getting little birds in my mailbox and illegal escrow accounts at Carl's Jr. Thank you. **[James Littlejohn](http://www.aboynejames.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-23 01:26:50 Just a thought, most of my friends call me by my school-days nick name, isn't that a bit like a vanity URL? It is my friends choice, not mine, I suppose that is it the difference? **Dinah Sanders (MetaGrrrl)** ¡ 2009-03-23 07:24:01 Thanks for the interesting thoughts. While I agree that "known identity makes for more thoughtful participation", it seems as though you've set up an artificial division between "using a handle" and "being personally identifiable". Anyone who wants to know who MetaGrrrl is can easily find out - I know they know & it does influence my behavior - AND I have the benefit of a unique, short identifier. Given how many Chris' there are just in the social circle encompassing you & I, I appeciate any disambiguatipn tools I've got. Handles made up of names are fine if, as noted by others above, you get there first, but since legal names are not a unique namespace, handles serve a vital role. One piece of advice I will give to anyone needing or wanting to chhose a handle is not to tie that handle too closely to a specific current aspect of your identity, especially your company or project. You should be able to move on without having to abandon your prior online self. **[Hans Granqvist](http://commented.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-23 08:37:16 Hmmm... I've been saying this since forever in the OpenID community (http://commented.org/blog/2007/8/24/openids-systemic-failure.html). Good to see more people rethinking URLs. But of course, Chris, you're now dissing OpenID since no one uses i-names or other dubious identifiers? **i-Names Sayitall** ¡ 2009-03-23 10:43:05 "one uses i-names or other dubious identifiers?"......" **[Mybrainrunslinux](http://tweakandtune.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-23 10:46:31 I agree that we need to behave better on the Internet, and maybe requiring real names would help, but there are too many issues here. Real names are NOT what we use in real life as a personal identifier - otherwise I could get a loan without providing my real life unique ID, which is my social security number. Why not make URLs out of that? Oh, wait, that's right, the Internet is the biggest untrusted network in the world, 55% spam and even more douchebaggery... Also, it is impossible to make the name verification really work - just ask Kevin Mitnick (yes, THAT Kevin Mitnick): http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009\_3-10197393-83.html I have to agree with Mike that online is different from offline.. But the main point there should be (I think) that the company who is the most creative and does the most different and unique things 'wins' offline - why do you think this wouldn't be true online? Lastly: Offline business has nothing to do with real names either - Pepsi, H&R Block, NBC... Are these not what we would call 'monikers'? **Fred Zeats** ¡ 2009-03-23 12:05:57 How useful is 'real name' identification on Facebook? Not at all useful. For example, I was recently looking for a friend of mine from college named "John Richards" Any idea how many John Richards there are? How about "Tom Davis" "John Williams" and "Elizabeth (liz, beth, betty, or liza) Johnson". The only reason I am on facebook at all is because family members are on it. I do not look at it as a 'social network' because it has nothing whatsoever to do with the online people I socialize with. I don't have anything of any import on FaceBook because I don't trust Facebook not to decide one day that I am not a "real" person and destroy my account. And since I am not famous enough to embarrass Facebook for their stupidity like others have managed to do (mitnick, Scrobble, et al), anything I have on Facebook is completely transient and at the whim of a capricious company. Anyone who relies on Facebook is a fool. **Capri** ¡ 2009-03-23 13:32:59 Erm, so I'm a fool for relying on Facebook to notify me when friends' birthdays are coming up, gee thanks Fred Zeats, as if the term "vanity url" isn't already insulting enough for somebody who prefers a name url over a bunch of random letters and numbers to make a ridiculously long url. And name urls don't have to be firstnamelastname, they can be an url based on an online handle, so I still object to the term "vanity url" because people aren't vain for wanting a simpler url for their site or profile. **Anon** ¡ 2009-03-23 14:31:44 I'm not convinced that this isn't a movement being driven by the fact that a lot of people are making a living out of being web 2.0 celebrities (or trying to). I'm tired of reading articles about "developing your social brand". I think this topic is a healthy example of that trend. Good for you if you that's your dream, I'm all for people striving to achieve their goals. I'll stick to anonymity thanks! My out-of-work life doesn't make me any money, so I've no need to publicise what I do. I don't believe I'm outnumbered either. **[Montoya](http://mappdev.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-24 07:49:11 Facebook doesn't need to use all that fake-handle crap because they made a neat typeahead box that comes up with your friends name after you've typed the first three letters, regardless of whether you are typing first name or last. You are 100% on the money, they are replicating real-life relationships and they are doing a very good job of it. Interestingly enough, Twitter is suffering from a serious fake-relationships/spam problem, as more companies & individuals use it to get free promotion rather than build real friendships. Facebook has never suffered from this problem. **Capri** ¡ 2009-03-24 08:40:30 Twitter is nothing, next to Facebook and most other sites, there's nothing to do over there and nothing worth reading. **[Laurie](http://lmrae.mywhat.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-24 19:49:44 Great post Chris. I have to admit I've always been of two minds about Facebook's philosophy wrt vanity URLs. I like the reduced clutter of a friend's list with recognizable handles, and FB has provided that to a large extent. And I also believe that a lot of people are not that interested in pseudonymity. On the other hand, I'm still concerned about how this is being handled by FaceBook. As we've seen in the past, many people were not able to create accounts with their real names, because of the data sets that were used to determine the validity of a name. Pseudomymity also has its place, but often times it also creates a lot of noise. Basically, at the risk of repeating myself, at the end of the day, more can be accomplished with less noise. However, I still think we will benefit for a long time from both approaches. **Desmond** ¡ 2009-03-27 05:37:11 The principal characteristic of Facebook is the default opaqueness of one's particulars. One can afford to be transparent because they can control how much information they actually want to share about themselves. This makes handle-level anonymity redundant. Although handle-level anonymity promotes a certain lack of concern about how one's behaviour is perceived, it is a useful tool for the sort of social networking where one's information is bared for all to see. WIth Facebook, Orkut, Bebo and others, the originator of that information (not quite owner anymore, but that is a topic all its own) can better manage how that information is shared. Transparency and privacy can be managed by audience. The most useful aspect of this is making it more difficult for abuse to occur. Unless the account originator chooses to share their information in a fully transparent manner with the world, they are fully aware of who (as in users) has access to their information and to what extent. This makes it harder for nasty people to cyberstalk or otherwise abuse one's social networking information. You would be surprised how "transparency' is abused, in particular by those who believe 'transparency' is an excuse to abuse someone else's privacy and pry into things that are morally and legally none of their business. Pseudonymity is a tactic that has become useful to protect the privacy of social networking users when they do not necessarily have other tools at their disposal. In providing such other tools, Facebook diminishes the need for pseudonymity. **[Steven Livingstone](http://weblivz.openid.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-27 05:39:42 The problem is that it really only establishes a link to an identity, not the identity itself. In particular if you look for a "Tina Fey" you can get any number of fakes that can use the popular semantics of that name to "gain" credibility. Unfortunate if you're a reasonably well known Tina Fey in your niche! At least if you were called "tinaphysics" and that was your identity people have a hell of a better chance of discovering your social profiles, comments etc that as "Tina Fey" (I use her as an example as her fake profile has > 200k followers). **[@steveplunkett](http://www.dallasseoblog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-27 06:07:41 having used a NIC handle for domains... having had an AOL/Eworld screen name in 1994, using the same "nickname" for IRC, chat, forums, blogs, domains, etc.. for 15 years... i "know" people who NEVER knew my real name. **[Chris Ballance](http://www.chrisballance.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-27 07:20:08 On the contrary, Facebook was not giving out vanity URLS as part of its effort to keep its content from being indexed by search engines and tending their walled garden. **[SexySEO](http://sexyseo.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-27 15:38:24 "My name is not number" http://sexyseo.blogspot.com/2009/03/my-name-is-not-number.html **[@steveplunkett](http://www.steveplunkett.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-27 18:12:09 oh.. my name IS a url.. http://www.steveplunkett.com so was http://www.paisley.net **[Vicki](http://cfcl.com/vlb?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-27 20:57:46 If I create an id for a new site, I choose vlb whenever possible. If not possible, I try vlbrown because at least I can type it without backing up. If that isn't available, I really have to think. Online, I \_am\_ vlb. vlb is me. I've been vlb since 1983\. I tried "vicki" once at one company and changed it 3 weeks later because I couldn't remember it. Offline I am Vicki (and I'll give you Vicki as the Name field in a comment like this one). So Vicki is also an identity. My last name is so common that no one can remember it. My full first name only identifies me to my bank, the DMV, and the IRS. And no one (including me) ever uses the middle name from my birth certificate. I am constantly amazed by people who seem to feel that "your full IRL name" is somehow a better identifier than whatever handle \_you\_ choose. When some teammates at work started suggestion that everyone should use their "real names" in the group IRC channel I countered by changing my IRC "nick" to V. You are who you are; the "name" you go by should be your choice. It's just as possible to have a high degree of accountability as funnybunny345 (or vlb) as it is to be irresponsible under What Looks Like an IRL Name. **[Liz](http://spiral-scratch.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-28 15:46:59 Personally, I don't want to merge all of my identities. When I go for a job interview and a potential employer Googles me, I don't want my Tweets and blog entries bubbling up to the top of the search engine results page. And I know I'm not alone. Our online recreation, creative pursuits & hobbies might not align with our professional identity. When you Google a doctor or lawyer you might hire, do you really want to see his posts on a message board for bass fisherman or her Tweets about the problems she's having with her iPhone or the wedding planning page for their fall wedding? I'd also argue that it was LinkedIn, maybe more so than Facebook, that led people to abandon pseudonyms in favor of real, actual names. **jack** ¡ 2009-03-29 07:51:55 "It’s just as possible to have a high degree of accountability as funnybunny345 (or vlb) as it is to be irresponsible under What Looks Like an IRL Name." Possible, yet doesn't happen. Defending anything, supporting anything, because of some pie in the sky 'possible' is kind of a joke. "When you Google a doctor or lawyer you might hire, do you really want to see his posts on a message board for bass fisherman or her Tweets about the problems she’s having with her iPhone or the wedding planning page for their fall wedding?" Why would you care? A doctor isn't just a doctor. Unless we're deluding ourselves that our doctor lives at the hospital I'm not sure why seeing that he/she can't work an iPhone means anything. "I’d also argue that it was LinkedIn, maybe more so than Facebook, that led people to abandon pseudonyms in favor of real, actual names." Only if the 'idea' came from linkedin, and I doubt it did. Facebook cuts across such a larger social group, and has such a larger user base, that linkedin can't come close to facebook's influence. **[Tantek Çelik](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-30 13:08:44 The instant-messaging (IM) screenshots and corresponding UI/usability statements make very good points. Two counterpoints you may wish to consider: 1\. Wikipedia is a good example of what can be built with (mostly) pseudonymous identities rather than requiring "IRL names". 2\. Hypothesis: OpenID commenters "tend to take their commenting more seriously" than Facebook commenters. Perhaps because using/owning your own URL (rather than sharecropping your identity on a semi-walled-garden service like Facebook) provides a more "durable identity and \[encourages\] higher quality participation". Tantek **[Jan Schjetne](http://diggetydamn.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-13 01:53:45 While I agree that "vanity URLs" as they are on MySpace and other "teenage" focused sites are sometimes annoying and childish, I wouldn't mind seeing cleaner URLs on Facebook. It wouldn't be difficult for them to change my profile URL from /profile.php?id=625472164 to /625472164/Jan+Schjetne/. And since I'm the only person on Facebook called Jan Schjetne I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to give me just /Jan+Schjetne/ either, but I understand how that would be a problem if your name is John Smith. It would take some clever URL rewriter no more than a day to come up with a solution, though. I've never really understood why Facebook URLs are so ugly. **Capri** ¡ 2009-04-13 05:03:55 Still, the name "vanity url" needs to go. Just because I'd like facebook.com/profile/whateverthenumberis/capri doesn't make me guilty of vanity! **[Robin](http://www.tagzeo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-23 09:47:00 I don't like the vanities url too... Will I Pay for them ? Never ! **Fred Zeats** ¡ 2009-06-06 18:48:23 Capri: If you are RELYING on Facebook in anyway then you are being foolish because if FaceBook loses (or deletes) your data, you have no recourse unless you are famous enough to get your issue into the media. As I said, Facebook is a capricious company. Capricious: prone to irrational and unpredictable changes in mood and behavior. Sounds like Facebook to me. **Capri** ¡ 2009-06-06 19:31:10 I never said I "relied" on Facebook for anything, my point is to protest the use of the insulting term "vanity url". I'd like an easier url. I am not vain. That's my point... **[Obviouschild](http://www.obviouschild.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-08-04 08:12:50 I agree; I don't like the idea that I would have to always update anything in order to 'sell myself' and my image and compete to have the 'coolest' page and so forth. My personality is in the real world, no hiding in the ether... **[eric](http://marine-marchande.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-08-07 01:52:04 I want to be an URL IRL :) **Albert Nel** ¡ 2009-09-16 09:01:46 The one thing I always get concerned about when talking about Web 2.0 and like you mentioned, the search engines that should be capable of knowing where you are, where you were, where your friends were etc... is that it's exactly that! The search engines (aka Google as they seem to be slowly taking over the world) will then know even more about you. To continue, the problem with that is the ridiculous amount of power that will be had with that type of information. I already felt strange about my twitter account being my name... but like you also mentioned, it allows for a transparency that is necessary in the social realms that Twitter and Facebook calls home. It's not that I'm a conspiracy nut or anything like that, I just value my privacy a lot and would rather avoid the social network completely instead of getting the "forced privilege" to have my name in some vanity URL. Great post, great read. **[Capri](http://capri.posterous.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-09-16 13:15:11 Once again, they are NOT "vanity urls" You're not vain for using a name/handle as an url and people just keep using that insulting term as if it was nothing. Yes, there are concerns about privacy online, people can and do misuse personal information - addresses, phone numbers, first and last names, locations to harass others online, and this includes bullying, stalking, blackklisting whoever the victim of the hate campaign is. That's why I prefer not to use my full name or give it out unless I have no choice. But that doesn't make me vain for wanting to use a handle in an url instead of a bunch of random numbers. **[Some links for light reading (24/3/09) « Max Design](http://russ.davidmcdonald.org/2009/03/25/some-links-221/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-29 03:15:15 \[...\] My name is not a URL \[...\] **Erik Petersen** ¡ 2010-04-23 20:22:13 @Fred: I 100% agree with you on this. I have \*several\* real lives and I consider this to be very legitimate. I'm a web master of a large forum and the members know me as, well, a ruthless dictator and tyrant. It's part of the job when you need to be judge and executioner and at time force people to do what you want them to do. To them, I'm an Oz-like figure and that suits me well. In "real life" I'm not that person at all. These are two entirely different "people", characters or roles I play and each has they own social network and each their own separate identities. I am NOT a fan of social networks for one simple reason: social identities are uni-dimensional, singular and absolute. The full depth of my social identity doesn't begin to encompass the full scope of my personality or my identiy. I'm not the same person to all people and I don't share all of my life with all of my friends (real or otherwise). I don't want my grandmother or my niece knowing "I'm a fan of Whips and Chains" or my boss knowing I f\*\*\*ed off from work early because it was too nice a day to waste it inside or that he's an imbecile even if I choose to tell my S&M friends I think so. The idea that you can capture the entire identity of a person in a single place is false logic and even if you could I would consider that yo be a gross violation of my person and my privacy and no, I don't trust that Facebook or Google or whoever you choose will keep my secrets secret. I don't like having my real name associated with my facebook profile and that is why I limit my facebook friends to only a handful. If your Facebook profile is all you are then I probably wouldn't want to be your friend anyway. "If Relationship George walks through that door, he will kill Independent George! A George divided against itself, cannot stand!" I don't think social networking, facebook in particular, is the panacea people claim it to be because it doesn't deliver on what it promises which is a singular, uni-dimensional profile of a multi-dimensional, dynamic and complex human animal. If they did I wouldn't go anywhere near them. **[Rob G.](http://www.fancyvalves.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-07-27 20:06:10 I agree with the whole "vanity" issue is really for those that need it. My thing is that the growth of these so called "social" networks is paramount to the numbing of our senses in the 1950's and 1960's with TV. I in fact believe we are becoming less "social" as a society with each passing generation. Go outside and have a cold beer with the neighbor sometime! **[Capri](http://cbcf.boardhost.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-07-28 12:27:49 Again, it isn't "vanity" to have a url with your name/handle in it instead of a bunch of numbers! One thing I've always disliked about Facebook is they require you to use your full name, which is why, regardless of what my url is there (and I'm not vain BTW) I don't even give it out to anyone... They're not "vanity" urls, they are "username urls".......... ### Open-washing and the CamelOpenCircle ...Jerk URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/openwashing/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:24.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3370222531/?ref=chrismessina.me)(Filed under: **sharks jumped**.) [Brynn](http://brynnevans.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) got this in the mail last week and shared it with me. Let's just say that it struck a nerve. I've worried for some time that "open" as a market differentiator is [becoming diluted](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/06/03/parsing-the-open-in-facebooks-fbopen-platform/?ref=chrismessina.me) and washed out, just as "organic" and "green" before. Like "2.0", companies are coming to see "open" as just the next checkbox-marketing-trend to hitch their fading brands to. Consider my fears confirmed. [Camel](http://smokerswelcome.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) doesn't ***really*** believe in **openness** — let alone grok the concept — let alone *give a shit* about openness — but since all the cool kids are doing it, they're happy to co-opt the label to win points. Let the backfire begin. At the height of cynicism, we have a company whose primary business is architecting new schemes to kill people with their death products, aligning their brand with "openness". Consider the line crossed. Watch [Mad Men](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0017JKEL8?ie=UTF8&tag=factorycity-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0017JKEL8&ref=chrismessina.me) for five minutes and see if you don't think that these assholes should be strung up by the balls (since it's predominantly white men who run these companies) and left for the vultures. Or left to be lynched by the families of the addicted and deceased. Fuck it, I'm going to go ahead and break [Godwin's Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's%5Flaw?ref=chrismessina.me). In the *spirit of openness*. It is [estimated](http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM?ref=chrismessina.me) that the **Nazis killed 20,946,000 people** from 1933 to 1945 (R.J. Rummel, [*Democide: Nazi Genocide and Mass Murder*](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156000004X?ie=UTF8&tag=factorycity-20&link%5Fcode=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=156000004X&ref=chrismessina.me), 1993.) Guess how many people are killed by tobacco-related illnesses every year? Roughly 20% of that number. **Smoking and tobacco-related diseases cause on the order of 4.2 million premature deaths per year** (according to the [WHO Tobacco Atlas](http://www.who.int/tobacco/resources/publications/tobacco%5Fatlas/en/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me) in 2000). That means that tobacco kills in five years what it took the Nazis twelve. And, according to the [World Bank](http://worldbank.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [smoking](http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/database.asp?ref=chrismessina.me) also contributes a disproportionate number of deaths in the United States over all: | Mortality Ages 35-69/Cause | Percent From Smoking | | ------------------------------ | -------------------- | | All Cancer, 1985 | 39% | | All Cancer, 1995 | 42% | | Lung Cancer, 1985 | 91% | | Lung Cancer, 1995 | 91% | | COPD, 1985 | 78% | | COPD, 1995 | 80% | | Vascular Disease, 1985 | 31% | | Vascular Disease, 1995 | 33% | | Mouth and Throat Cancers, 1985 | 67% | | Mouth and Throat Cancers, 1995 | 68% | And the future? The World Health Organization [projects](http://www.who.int/entity/tobacco/en/atlas11.pdf?ref=chrismessina.me) that **from 2025 to 2030, 10 million people worldwide will die from tobacco-related causes** (the majority in developing countries): [](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3579/3371518818%5Fe2918e05fb%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me)So, you want to be part of the "open" revolution, Camel? Welcome! I presume this means that you're ready to start coming clean and owning up to the millions of deaths your industry has caused? Or is "CamelOpenCircle" just another marketing gimmick to trick people into thinking that you're on the up and up of what's trendy? Newsflash muthafuckas: openness is hot not because it's a gimmick, but because it means something to those of us who are tired of being lied to, being mislead, being cajoled and tricked by companies like you. **FUCK YOU**. Brands like yours could learn a thing or two from openness; too bad everything about you is the direct inverse of [everything that we stand for](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/03/04/generation-open/?ref=chrismessina.me). Bottom line: ![Smoking will fucking kill you](http://img.skitch.com/20090320-fs5kude52mkcytgj9nqxk91pgs.png) ...and aligning yourselves with openness will never change that. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Silona](http://silona.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-20 15:32:18 Sorry I can't help but say hear hear! and I am so with you! **[hectorpal](http://www.rayasypalabras.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-20 15:36:28 I understand your position Chris, but it also means we are getting there in openness. Everytime every change movement becomes hot-enough, every interested actor in society try to domesticate it. Every time. Of course, what we need to do is to answer them as you did. More over, the same is happening with user-generated content, viral videos, etc. They are trying to figure it out how to make profit, how to control it. They will succed, as usual, a little bit, but some power will remain in our hands. It will never be the same again. Revolutions emerge, change, destroy, are domesticated but their seeds and their memories remain there. It's cool to have a reason from time to time for saying "fuck you" or something like that. **[john](http://www.thecivicfabric.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-20 15:37:56 I appreciate your anger. We can also thank government officials who pilfered tobacco settlement monies that were earmarked specifically for programs to reduce tobacco use. Instead they diverted them to plug budget shortfalls or other more politically expedient programs. **[Fabricio Zuardi](http://fabricio.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-20 15:41:00 Don't worry Chris, the "Generation Open" smoke Smarties http://www.youtube.com/results?q=how%20to%20smoke%20smarties ;) **KentBye** ¡ 2009-03-20 16:05:07 Boom! Roasted. **[timb](http://bon.gs/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-20 16:38:32 i wasn't really aware smoking was dangerous for my health. these hard facts really put things into perspective for me, thank you. **Mike** ¡ 2009-03-20 18:59:40 I don't understand the issue with smoking. As long as it isn't directly affecting my health, let smokers smoke. Wouldn't you prefer that smokers die off anyways? The earth's population growth crisis is a far more critical issue to worry about. Smokers die, and the earth lives a bit longer. **Todd** ¡ 2009-03-21 04:41:37 1 - I hate the on going dilution of "open" more than anyone. This Camel example is bad, but at least they do not sit on the W3C board an intentionally destroy Open Source Standards ( Like Microsoft and Adobe do ). Conversely... Mr. Messina your strong anti-tobacco stance has seemingly forgotten that most states, especially California, would go bankrupt if they were to lose their "sin tax" revenue. The trash in San Francisco gets taken away, the street lights work, clean water comes out of the tap in your house - all because of cigarettes. I am in no way trying to defend the tobacco companies, but they are transparent in at least one way - they just want to make money at the expense ( death ) of their customers. ...Do the "sin tax" states, like California whose budgets are reliant on the revenue from cigarettes, show the same transparency? Do you aim the same amount of vitriol that's in the post at the state legislators in Sacramento? They are just as guilty as big tobacco companies. **[Bertil Hatt](http://twocroissants.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-21 04:53:28 I fully agree with you that tobacco companies and their advertizers should be treated like the drug lords that they are (Hang by the balls? Come on: ask Pr. Yoo from the prevous White House Legal Counsel, he'll make way worst completely lawful for you) and although I might also agree with Mike that one shouldn't get in the way of Darwin, and let one pay one more stupidity tax, as long as they don't do it in my public space. In spite of that, your rant relies on the fact that Open is something real, or well defined. I would like to disagree with that — actually, I've spend the last month arguing (in the desert) that your very promissing attempts to make the world “more open, social and free” don't necessarily help. Most initiative will lead us into a monopoly (most likely Facebook) a not very innovative one at that, and —what is worst— a hard to challenge. It is counter-intuitive, but I have enough experiments in the economics of communication services to argue my case. Projects like OpenSocial that lower the cost to have accounts on several services, like Orkut, MySpace and more, will help a monopoly to be set up. Data Portability will do the same, more efficiently. I know Dave Morin is a cool kid — almost as cool as ‘Joe’ (?) Camel's camel — but unless he argues for DiSo, he might as well be serving the same social-based dependendy mechanism that made smoking not only cool, but a necessary aspect to integration. Don't tell me Facebook doesn't kill: Zuckerberg was the one who introduced that kind of element in the debate, mentionning how his company saved lifes but preventing bully regimes. Actual understanding of how his company can became a monopoly is important too. Please don't neglect my comment. **[Steve Mason](http://twitter.com/smason?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 16:06:54 "It is estimated that the Nazis killed 20,946,000 people from 1933 to 1945 (R.J. Rummel, Democide: Nazi Genocide and Mass Murder, 1993.) Guess how many people are killed by tobacco-related illnesses every year? Roughly 20% of that number. Smoking and tobacco-related diseases cause on the order of 4.2 million premature deaths per year" The part you're missing is the people the Nazis killed had no choice in the matter. They were systematically being exterminated like insects. Smoking on the other hand is (and this is the clincher) COMPLETELY OPTIONAL, not only optional but YOU HAVE TO PAY MONEY TO DO IT. Some other points I'd like to make are as follows: 1\. What business is it of your's what other people do with their bodies as long as it doesn't harm you? (and don't retort with "second hand smoke", its a bullshit claim to begin with and fairly moot with all the public anti-smoking laws in so many states and countries) 2\. This one may take you a while to wrap your head around....NON-SMOKERS DIE EVERYDAY. Fact. **[Ivan Storck](http://www.ivanenviroman.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 19:02:38 At least organic is a USDA standard. So, if you call food organic, and it isn't, you are actually breaking the law. **henchan** ¡ 2009-06-17 21:55:02 Thin end of the wedge. First they'll borrow a term, then they'll appropriate it. See how we are now stuck with CamelCase to describe words like CamelOpenCircle. **[FactoryCity » Understanding the Open Graph Protocol](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2010/04/22/understanding-the-open-graph-protocol/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-04-22 19:53:30 \[...\] I’m skeptical about calling this format “open” — because it smells more like openwashing from here, but I’m willing to give it the benefit of the doubt for now. (Similarly, XAuth \[...\] **[Por quĂŠ no hay que fumar en cifras | Artifacts: el blog](http://artifactstshirts.com/blog/2010/04/25/por-que-no-hay-que-fumar-en-cifras/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-04-25 13:23:49 \[...\] es el Open Graph de Facebook (parece que no es ni Open/Libre ni Graph/Grafo xD) me encontrĂŠ con ĂŠste artĂ­culo sobre el cigarrito de Chris Messina de \[...\] ### Generation Open URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/generation-open/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:23.000Z I spent the weekend in DC at [TransparencyCamp](http://transparencycamp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), an event modeled after BarCamp focused on government transparency and open access to sources of federal data (largely through APIs and web services). Down the street, a social-media savvy conference called [PowerShift](http://powershift09.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) convened over 12,000 of the nation's youth to march on Congress to have their concerns about the environment heard. They were largely brought together on social networks. Last week, after an [imbroglio](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2009/02/two-edged-sword-of-users-rights?ref=chrismessina.me) about a [change](http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2009/02/18/SomeThoughtsOnRetroactiveDeletionOfSharedContentOnFacebookAndOtherSocialMediaSites.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me) to their terms of service, Facebook published two plain-language documents setting the course for "[governing Facebook in an Open and Transparent way](http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=56566967130&ref=chrismessina.me)": a [Statement of Rights and Responsibilities](http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=67758697570) coupled with a list of [ten guiding principles](http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=54964476066&topic=7960). The week before last, the [Association for Computing Machinery](http://www.acm.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) (ACM) [released](http://www.acm.org/news/featured/open-government/?ref=chrismessina.me) a [set of recommendations for open government](http://www.acm.org/public-policy/open-government?ref=chrismessina.me) that, among other things, called for government data to be available in formats that promote reuse and are available via public APIs. WTF is going on? Clearly something has happened since I worked on the Spread Firefox project in 2004 — a time when Mozilla was an easily dismissed outpost for "modern communists" (since meritocracy and sharing equals Communism, apparently). Seemingly, the culture of "open" has infused even the most [conservative and blood-thirsty organizations](http://microsoft.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) with companies falling over each other to claim the mantle of being the most open of them all. So we won, right? I wouldn't say that. In fact, I think it's now when the hard work begins. . . . The people within Facebook not only believe in what they're doing but are on the leading edge of **Generation Open**. It's not merely an age thing; it's a mindset thing. It's about having all your references come from the land of the internet rather than TV and becoming accustomed to — and taking for granted — bilateral communications in place of unidirectional broadcast forms. Where authority figures used to be able to get away with telling you not to talk back, Generation Open just turns to Twitter and lets the whole world know what they think. But it's not just that the means of publishing have been democratized and the new medium is being mastered; change is flowing from the events that have shaped my generation's understanding of economics, identity, and freedom. Maybe it started with Pearl Jam (it did for me!). Or perhaps witnessing AOL incinerate Netscape, only to see a vast network emerge to champion the rise of Firefox from its ashes. Maybe being bombarded by stinking piles of Flash and Real Player one too many times lead to a realization that, "yeah, those advertisers ain't so cool. They're fuckin' up my web!" Of course watching Google become a residue on the web itself, imbuing its colorful primaries on HTTP, as a lichen seduces a redwood, becoming inseparable from the host, also suggests a more organic approach to business as usual. Talking to people who hack on Drupal or Mozilla, I'm not surprised when they presume openness as matter of course. They thrive on the work of those who have come before and in turn, pay it forward. Why *wouldn't* their work be open? Talking to people at Facebook (in light of the arc of their brief history) you might not expect openness to come culturally. Similarly, talking to Microsoft you could presume the same. In the latter case, you'd be right; in the former, I'm not so sure. See, the people who populate Facebook are largely from Generation Open. They grew up in an era where open source wasn't just a bygone conclusion, but it was central to how many of them learned to code. It wasn't in computer science classes at top universities — those folks ended up at Arthur Anderson, Accenture or Oracle (and probably became equally boring). Instead, the hobbyist *kids* cut their teeth writing WordPress plugins, Firefox extensions, or Greasemonkey scripts. They found success [*because of openness*](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/03/18/because-of-open-source/?ref=chrismessina.me). ![Share](http://img.skitch.com/20090305-jqyx3c5taqp2iuq9g2abgxi37e.png) That Zuckerberg et al talk about making the web a more "open and social place" where it's easy to "[share and connect](http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=57822962130&ref=chrismessina.me)" is no surprise: it's the open, social nature of the web that has brought them such success, and will be the domain in which they achieve their magnum opus. They are the original progeny of the open web, and its natural heirs. . . . Obama [is running smack against](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/01/AR2009030101745%5Fpf.html?ref=chrismessina.me) the legacy of the baby boomers — the generation whose parents defeated the Nazis. *More relevant* is that the boomers **fought** the Nazis. Their children, in turn, inherited a visceral fear of machinery, in large part thanks to IBM's contributions to the near-extermination of an entire race of people. If you want to know why privacy is important — look to the power of aggregate knowledge in the hands of xenophobes 70 years ago. But who was alive 70 years ago? Better: who was six years old and terribly impressionable fifty years ago? Our parents, that's who. And it's no wonder why the Facebook newsfeed (now [stream](http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=206&ref=chrismessina.me)) and Twitter make these folks uneasy. The potential for abuse is so great and our generation — our *open, open generation* — is so beautifully naive. . . . We are the generation that will meet Al Qaeda not "head on", but by the length of each of its tentacles. Unlike our parents' enemies, ours are not centralized supernations anymore. Our enemies act like malware, infecting people's brains, and thus behave like a decentralized zombie-bot horde that cannot be stopped unless you shift the environment or shut off the grid. We are also the generation that watched our government fail to protect the victims of Katrina — before, during and after the event. The emperor's safety net — sworn nemesis of fiscal conservatives — turned out not to exist despite all their persistent whining. Stranded, hundreds took to their roofs while helicopters hovered over head, broadcasting FEMA's failure on the nightly news. While Old Media gawked, the open source community solved problems, delivering the [Katrina PeopleFinder](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katrina%5FPeopleFinder%5FProject?ref=chrismessina.me) database, meticulously culled from public records and disparate resources that, at the time, lacked usable APIs. But that wasn't the first time "privacy" worked against us. On September 11, 2001 we flooded the cell networks, just wanting to know whether our friends and family were safe. The network, controlled by a few megacorporations, failed under the weight of our anxiety and calls; those supposed consumer protections designed to keep us safe... didn't, turning technology and secrecy against us. . . . Back to this weekend in DC. You put TransparencyCamp in context — and think about all the abuses that have been perpetrated by humans against humans — throughout time... you have to stop and wonder: "Geez, what on earth will make this generation any different than the ones that have come before? What's to say that Zuckerberg — once he assembles a mass of personally identifying information on his peers on an order of magnitude never achieved since humans started counting time — won't he do what everyone in his position has done before?" Oddly enough, the answer is probably not. The reason is the web. Even weirder is that Facebook, as I write this, seems to be [taking steps to embrace the web, seeking to become a part of it](http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/03/facebook-in-2010-no-longer-a-walled-garden.html?ref=chrismessina.me) — rather than competing against it. It seems, at least in my interactions with folks at Facebook, that a good portion of them genuinely want to work with the web as it today, as they recognize the power that they themselves have derived from it. As they benefitted from it, they shall benefit it in turn. Seems counterproductive to all those MBAs who study Microsoft as the masterstroke of the 21st century, but to the *citizens of the web* — we get it. What Facebook is attempting — like the Obama administration in parallel — is nothing short of a revolution; you simply can't *evolve* out of a culture of fear and paranoia that was passed down to us. You have to disrupt the ecosystem, and create a new equilibrium. If we are Generation Open, then we are the optimistic generation. Ours only comes around every several generations with the resurgence of pure human spirit coupled with the resplendent realization of intent. There are, however, still plenty who reject this attitude and approach, suffering from the combined malaise of "proprietariness", "materialism", and "consumerism". But — *I shit you not* — as the world turns, things are changing. Sharing and [giving away all that you can](http://www.ms.lt/en/workingopenly/givingaway.html?ref=chrismessina.me) are the best defenses against fear, obsolescence, growing old, and, even, wrinkles. It isn't always easy, but it's how we outlive the shackles of biology and transcend the physicality of gravity. To transcend is to become transparent, clear, open. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[victoria thorne](http://design.victoriathorne.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-04 23:27:22 sort of got the feeling i was reading an historic document, sir: this might just be... you make giving it all away sound awfully sane; sharing, it's own reward i hope you are right **[Bob La Quey](http://twitter.com/boblq?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-05 01:12:35 "Maybe it started with Pearl Jam." LOL Ever hear of Richard Stallman? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard\_Stallman "Don't trust any one over thirty." 1960's slogan. I do recall a wonderful conversation with my father now dead for thirty four years. "Death is a great thing son. It keeps the world from becoming the frozen pawn of old men." I agree that openness and transparency are where it is at. But I knew that forty years ago. And I was not alone. You do not know how right you are when you say, "I think it’s now when the hard work begins." The hard work never ends. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. Good luck, BobLQ "History does not **[Bill Ward](http://www.brickpile.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-05 12:41:42 This is fucking brilliant. **[Dave Morin](http://davemorin.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-07 22:11:22 Connect. Share. Be Open. Onward to the future my friend. It has been awesome working on a more open and social world with you over the last 5 years. **[Josh Elman](http://facebook.com/joshelman)** ¡ 2009-03-07 22:23:58 Chris- This is a really powerful message, and I believe we're on to something as we make the world more transparent, connected, and open. I echo Dave's statements and look forward to working on this with you for the next 5 years and beyond. **[Jared McFarland](http://www.jared-mcfarland.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-07 22:30:54 The people scared of revolution will scream, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". The brilliance of it all? There is no one with any sort of absolute power. Even Facebook, with all it's data and abilities, is at the mercy of it's own users. I'm only 21, but the open information revolution is something I've desired for many years. The adage "Secrets don't make friends" is perfectly correct. You can't have a corrupt government if they can't hide. You can't have unethical corporations if their actions are transparent and watched. This is a brilliant article. Just reading it makes me feel energized and excited about the hard work ahead, excited to be part of a culture of change. Thank you. **[Andreas L.](http://markup.nu/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-08 01:28:32 Bob: and have you ever heard of futurism (1904)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurism\_(art) -- give a look at their manifesto. **[Alex Housley](http://housley.me/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-08 02:19:49 The next challenge is for parts of the world that are not yet so open to embrace the social web as a force for positive communication and change. Corrupt governments/leaders have every reason to fear this movement since it contradicts the dated control mechanisms they have in place. We're lucky to be living in such an exciting time. Services such as Facebook & Twitter must continue to set the highest standards when it comes to openness without sacrificing privacy where so desired. I'm pleased with Facebook's response to the recent controversial change of content ownership terms. Keep rocking! **[Michal Migurski](http://mike.teczno.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-08 11:32:22 Sounds great, but \*Facebook\* ? It's only been a few short years since everything Google did was a revolutionary insurrection against evil, now that they have a homestead to defend and a tighter grip on our day-to-day, they're viewed with a bit more rightful suspicion. As others above have pointed out, the attitude you describe is the default stance of those with nothing to lose; "proprietariness” and “materialism" both result from investment in property, or the status quo. Jared's right, FB's power comes solely from its userbase, and it's in their interest to keep that userbase fragmented and satisfied. Bob's right too, this particular push/pull between the status quo and the new generation of the moment is the only given. **bob smith** ¡ 2009-03-08 21:09:43 what a bunch of crap. Zuck is a loser - wait until Facebook files for bankruptcy in 2009 - then see who owns your "data" **[James Littlejohn](http://www.aboynejames.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-09 01:54:25 A great pull together on the big picture of society evolution and the daily detail of openness implementation. They will be using this post in history classes someday. **Jake** ¡ 2009-03-09 02:40:07 "What Facebook is attempting — like the Obama administration in parallel — is nothing short of a revolution; you simply can’t evolve out of a culture of fear and paranoia that was passed down to us. " What \*IS\* Facebook attempting? Your thesis in this post isn't clear. Yes, transparency is a good thing in government. Transparency with regards to the smelly kid next to you in class who you felt guilty not friending is not such a good thing. It seems like you're lumping transparency of data / practices - like in the the realm of government - with transparency of thoughts / feelings / other personal items - id est, exhibitionism. While these two different tracts certainly dovetail at certain points, I would argue they are separate and distinctly different, and should be treated as such. I think you will always find people who are uncomfortable putting their lives on blast - and they're made even more uncomfortable by the shifting mindset that you're EXPECTED to put everything out in the open. I'm not saying this is a poisonous attitude that we're moving towards, but temperance isn't a bad check to have in this mad-dash rush to put everything on the web. I'm also confused as to what your anecdotes about Al-Qaeda, Katrina location services, and cell network outages has to do with this whole concept of transparency. Yes, with the decline of major super-powers our military has to readjust to guerrilla tactics - what does that have to do with your post? The power of individuals banding together, extra-governmentally, to get something done has been seen for centuries in this country, so what does the Katrina situation say to your post beyond "the internet reduces distance and collects information"? And since when has the control over a finite resource / service by a few powerful corporations NOT been railed against (or, alternatively, that the flaws in this model not been exposed)? I like where you were going with this post and I completely understand that it's just a blog, not a journal article. I'd love to see a second version of this. **[BobLQ](http://twitter.com/boblq?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-09 07:17:26 Andreas: Great reference. My favorites followed the Futurists, The Dadaist, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dadaism and then Jean Tiguely, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean\_Tinguely More often than not though the rebels and revolutionaries are ignorant of their antecedents. I confess I was. I say though, "Good luck to these young people." BobLQ **Michele Nicholls** ¡ 2009-03-10 04:29:13 As a mere 61 year-old bumbler on the net, I stumbled on this through my new (and delightful) Twitter account, which I joined as a result of being urged by a similarly aging Facebook friend. As BobLQ says, rebels and revolutionaries are rarely aware of those who have gone before along the same road ;) Not all of us of the post war generation are paranoid, most of us are in awe at the achievements of the young, and delight in the doors you have opened, not just in our minds, but in our lives. If you do the right research (try Bob Dylan, Joan Baez) you will find we were fighting for the same openness and caring way back when. Altruism is a survival mechanism, not a virtue, if you don't give you don't get, and hoarding equals building your own prison - sadly, each generation seems to need to learn this lesson anew ;( **[Patricia](http://www.dailypatricia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-15 04:45:07 No offense, but when i see articles like this, I realize how really super niave the world is about the internet. **[Paul Walker](http://www.paulwalker.tv/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-27 01:00:31 Hi Chris! I really don't get the vanity URI vs realname debate here. I guess I don't see a distinction. There is nothing that prevents people from using their "real name" in their vanity URI right? You can be lucky to have www.givenfamily.com or use www.provider.com/givenfamily. Certainly, FB has been ahead of the game with getting real names and identities, but is it really fair to throw MySpace under the bus for initiating the idea of an online identity to the common public? The irony is that you have changed your twitter URI and, while being excited about that, let's not lose perspective. \~paul http://www.paulwalker.tv http://www.myspace.com/myspacepaul http://www.twitter.com/pjwal http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=565823827 ;-) **[FactoryCity » Open-washing and the CamelOpenCircle …Jerk](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/03/20/openwashing/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-04-22 16:12:12 \[...\] all be made better. Ready? Begin. Skip to content AboutArchivesTagsScreenshotsContact ÂŤ Generation Open My name is not a URL \[...\] ### How to use Twimailer securely URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/how-to-use-twimailer-securely/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:22.000Z [](http://twimailer.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Twimailer](http://twimailer.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is a [nifty service](http://vimeo.com/3449813?ref=chrismessina.me) that launched recently that makes Twitter [BACN](http://www.bacn2.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ("[email that you want, just not right now](http://olivertower.com/2007/08/22/bacn-email-i-want-just-not-right-now/?ref=chrismessina.me)") more useful and informative ([example](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3328478669/?ref=chrismessina.me)). The only problem is that it requires you to change your Twitter account email to point to an address provided by Twimailer — on the whole, not a big deal if you trust Twimailer, but in general bad practice. ([Rod Begbie](http://groovymother.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) also [pointed out](http://twitter.com/RodBegbie/status/1275496163?ref=chrismessina.me) that this prevents people from being able to find you by your email address). Fortunately there is a better and more secure way to take advantage of Twimailer. I'll demonstrate in Gmail but really I'm just auto-forwarding new follower notifications *from* Twitter *to* your Twimailer address. That's it. 1. First, go ahead and sign up for a new Twimailer account. To get started, they just need an email address to send your notifications to. Twimailer will assign you a unique email address like `twitter1234567@twimailer.com`. Set this aside (copy it to TextEdit or something). 2. Next, load up your Gmail inbox and search for "is now following you on Twitter!". Open up one of the notifications from Twitter (the From email should be something like `twitter-follow-your.address=gmail.com@postmaster.twitter.com`). In the right hand drop-down menu, pick "**Filter messages like this**":[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3328504927/?ref=chrismessina.me) 3. You should then see an interface like this (click to enlarge): [](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3341/3328509869%5F9e995e318c%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me)Go ahead and test this search to make sure it's working (presuming you haven't deleted all your notifications). 4. If everything looks good, go ahead and click **Next Step** and at check off "**Forward it to**" and **enter your Twimailer email address** that you set aside in Step 1\. If you don't want duplicate notifications from Twitter and Twimailer, you should also check off "**Skip the Inbox**" or "**Delete it**" (the message will still be forwarded). My setup looks like this (click to enlarge):[](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3664/3328470737%5F9a73c26030%5Fo.png?ref=chrismessina.me) 5. **Bonus**: to filter or create a label for Twimailer notices, use this search: `from:(notices@twimailer.com) OR to:(notices@twimailer.com)`. That's it! It seems to me that this kind of feature improvement is something that Twitter should really do itself, but of course it's great to see someone from the community pitch in and add incremental value until Twitter gets around to it. At the same time, putting Twimailer in between you and Twitter's password recovery mechanism seems unnecessarily dangerous (i.e. Twimailer could go down, get hacked, [sold](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/02/twitter-and-the-password-anti-pattern/?ref=chrismessina.me) or might be simply be implemented insecurely (consider Spotify's [recent](http://www.spotify.com/blog/archives/2009/03/04/spotify-security-notice/?ref=chrismessina.me) security [breach](http://wiki.factoryjoe.com/Spotify-Security-Notice?ref=chrismessina.me))). I actually have no insight into these things about Twimailer, but I'd rather not take any unnecessary chances. The approach that I described above should mitigate any risk with using Twimailer and keep you in direct control over your Twitter account. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Zach](http://zachhale.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-04 13:37:15 Fantastic tip. Setting my email to twimailer left a horrible taste in my mouth that I'm glad to have removed. Thanks! **Eric Saun** ¡ 2009-03-04 13:52:14 on my side i am playing with http://topify.com and the service looks much better since it allows me to follow back users by just replying to my email notification. **Chris** ¡ 2009-03-04 18:14:10 nice how-to. i changed it after you mentioned about the password reminder. i forgot all about that and didn't like them in between that. **[Micky](http://mickyfin.vox.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-04 22:19:44 Thanks so much for this, it gives me peace of mind now. **[Pascal Van Hecke](http://pascal.vanhecke.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-05 00:13:50 Saw twimailer mentioned by you, I actually produced a similar writeup at the same time (less verbose, so I was a bit earlier to post ;-) ) http://twitter.com/pascalvanhecke/statuses/1280147315 **[Jean-Marc Liotier](http://serendipity.ruwenzori.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-05 05:35:45 The same method is feasible with Maildrop's Mailfilter rules : if (/^from:.\*twitter-follow-myname=domain.tld@postmaster.twitter.com/) { to "!twitterdjaopsngr3@twimailer.com" } **[Ann @omahonydonnelly](http://www.e-business.ie/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-05 06:59:44 thank you - twimailer wasn't working properly before, but now it is and I don't have to worry where my DMs are going? **[Alif Rachmawadi](http://alifity.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-05 21:36:43 Useful and secure technique. I have implemented it. Thanks alot. **[Svein HĂĽvard Djupvik](http://sveinhd.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-05 23:30:04 Great post. **[artgrrl](http://twesis.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-06 07:12:37 Twitter didn't let me use their e-mail anyway, thanx for this hack! **[Stefan](http://www.susuh.de/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-08 09:02:52 Thanks for the hack, just tweeted it. :) **[Mark Frisk](http://markfrisk.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-08 11:38:44 Thanks for this great workaround. Unfortunately, Twimailer seems to be down for the count, at least for me, as of March 8, early morning through now (mid-afternoon EST). Not receiving any emails from Twimailer, but I've had about a dozen new followers since I started forwarding emails. I've double-checked all settings; everything looks good. Is it working for anyone right now? I'm definitely not skipping the Inbox with emails from Twitter, at least for now. **[Allan White](http://www.allanwhite.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-09 11:04:48 I just found out about the service, looks good but changing my twitter email sure gave me pause - I'm glad I'm not the only one. Their last tweet indicates that they're back up, I'll be watching. Chris, thanks for posting this, very useful! **[ewebber](http://www.londonshopfronts.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-09 23:58:27 I couldn't seen to get this to work with twimailer, but it does work great with topify **[Chris Thomson](http://chris24.ca/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-22 13:35:41 Awesome tip, Chris! It's great to see that Twimailer can be used without sending all of my DMs through them, too. **[Lillea Woodlyns](http://www.speedonlinewealth.com/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-28 18:18:26 I'm concerned about Twimailer overall. Their Twitter page doesn't exist and when I click on 'support' I get a line of absolute nonsense for the e-mail address. I set up things as you advise. Normally I get a few followers a day, which isn't always a good thing, but since setting up Twimailer I've had one person follow me (it's only been 2-3 days, but it's stil unusual to have so few) and I wasn't informed about them. Any thoughts? I'm starting to wonder if Twimailer is a bit of a scam. **David C** ¡ 2009-03-30 12:47:11 If you do it the way you say don't you lose the benefits of signing up for Twimailer in the first place. Won't it go back to regular notifications from Twitter which are basic and do not include the extra info provided by Twimailer? **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-30 13:04:28 @David C: Nope. The idea is that you still receive the original Twitter notifications, but after you forward them to Twimailer, you filter or delete them as they come in. As you forward the notifications to Twimailer, it will respond with the enhanced version, since it doesn't actually care where the Twitter notification originates from. You do end up with two sets of notifications (one from Twitter and one from Twimailer, but that's why you delete or archive those coming in from Twitter). **[Mark Frisk](http://markfrisk.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 17:58:55 Interesting news re Twimailer: Buyer Beware: Topify Turns Down Offer to Acquire Twimailer http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/twimailer\_security.php **[artgrrl](http://twesis.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-07 23:53:05 too bad Twimailer has been down for days now :( **Ester** ¡ 2010-05-21 00:13:46 The problem I find with this is that gmail is asking me to verify the twimailer address and the verification code I get appears as invalid... what am I doing wrong? How can I get the twimailer address validated so that gmail will start forwarding to it? ### RIP @factoryjoe URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/rip-factoryjoe-2/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:21.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3325196578/?ref=chrismessina.me)Sometime last week, [after two Manhattans](http://twitter.com/chrismessina/status/1249460858?ref=chrismessina.me), I decided to change my Twitter username from [@factoryjoe](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me) to [@chrismessina](http://twitter.com/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me). In the scheme of things, not a big deal (yeah, okay, so I broke a couple thousand hyperlinks...). And yet, I can’t but feel like I’ve shed a skin or changed identities... at least to a specific audience. I started using Twitter in 2006 as “factoryjoe”. Of course, this is the nick that I use everywhere —from [Flickr](http://flickr.com/people/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me) to my [personal homepage](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) — so that choice was obvious. I essentially own [factoryjoe](http://www.google.com/search?q=factoryjoe&ref=chrismessina.me) on the web — people even occasionally call me “Joe” when we meet, such is their familiarity with my online persona. But that’s not my actual name. When I talk in front of people and I introduce myself as “Chris Messina”, the disconnect between my real name and my online persona becomes distracting. And, over time, my motivations for having a separate online identity have waned. But first, I suppose, I should provide some background. ### Where did “factoryjoe” come from? Every so often I’m asked where “factoryjoe” came from: “Kind of like ‘Joe the Plumber?’” “Kind of,” I say. "But not really." Growing up, I drew comic books for fun. In fact, for most of my formative years, it seemed pretty clear that I’d pursue a career in art. I worked in pastels, watercolor, pen and ink; I preferred pen and ink above all the others though, taking lessons from [Rob Liefeld](http://www.robliefeld.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Todd McFarlane](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd%5FMcFarlane?ref=chrismessina.me), [Jim Lee](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim%5FLee?ref=chrismessina.me) and others as [Image Comics](http://www.imagecomics.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) came on to the scene. It was a fond dream of mine to someday pen my own [sequential art](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006097625X?ie=UTF8&tag=factorycity-20&link%5Fcode=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=006097625X&ref=chrismessina.me). [](https://obeygiant.com/prints/1984/?ref=chrismessina.me)In high school, I read [Nineteen Eighty-Four](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0451524934?ie=UTF8&tag=factorycity-20&link%5Fcode=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=0451524934&ref=chrismessina.me) and became enamored with the character of Winston Smith, Orwell’s “everyman” character. In [Winston Smith](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston%5FSmith?ref=chrismessina.me), I found a confederate, struggling to assert his individual humanity against the massive, dehumanizing forces of groupthink and oligarchy. Similarly, I identified with Vonnegut’s [Harrison Bergeron](http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and his struggle against homogeneity and mediocrity. The contours of “factoryjoe” began to emerge against the backdrop of the metropolitan “FactoryCity”, where industrialism was proven a sham and one’s conspicuous pursuit of passion ruled over the shallow pursuit of material consumption. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1525168459/?ref=chrismessina.me)*Factory Joe* was the anonymous shell in which I could plant my aspirations and designs for the future. He served as a metaphorical vessel through which I could mold a broader narrative. ### So... changing your Twitter username? In every superhero’s journey, there comes a time when the mask grows bigger than its owner. Is it the mask that provides the wearer with his power, or is it something integral to the individual? I once believed that I needed to have a deep separation between myself and my online persona — that they should be distinct; that I should distrust the web. Over time I’ve realized a great deal power by closing the gap between who I am offline and who I am online. I suppose this is the power of transparency, developed through consistency and demonstrated integrity. *@factoryjoe* was, therefore, my first go at creating an online identity for myself. A kind of “home away from home” that I could experiment with before this whole social web thing caught on. As it happened, this was fine when I had a small group of friends who used similar aliases for themselves, but more recently — inspired by Facebook’s allergy to pseudonyms and non-human friendly usernames — it seems that not only owning your own identity is in vogue, but using your real name is an act of assertiveness, inventiveness or establishment. Heck, if you’re willing to share your real name with [150+ million compatriots on Facebook](http://www.facebook.com/press/info.php?statistics), is there really that much to be gained from obfuscating your actual name on the open web anymore (that’s rhetorical)? So, back to Future of Web Apps... following my workshop with [Dave](http://davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), I took a step back to think about how it must appear for me to be working on the social web and identity technologies while maintaining this dichotomy between my offline and online personas — *in name only*. C’mon, when people have feedback and I’m talking on stage — who do I want them addressing? — my assumed identity ... or me? The friction that I invented is just no longer necessary. So *factoryjoe* isn’t going away — not entirely at least. It’s a useful vessel to inhabit and I’ll continue to do so. But on Twitter, Facebook, and on my homepage, I’ll use my real name. There is simply no longer a good reason to differentiate between who I am online, and who I am off, if ever there was. . . .Postscript: I'm now [@chrismessina](http://twitter.com/chrismessina?ref=chrismessina.me) on Twitter. If we were friends before — no need to make any changes — Twitter took care of that already. @factoryjoe's been retired, but now that I got it back from Recordon (he was just jealous, since he has the worst username ever), who knows, maybe he'll return someday. We'll see! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Adam Jackson](http://twitter.com/adamjackson?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-02 23:03:17 Wow. That's a huge change and those thousands of hyperlinks thing is exactly why I hold on to my username at all costs. Thanks for sharing and I'll be watching to see people still replying to factoryjoe for a while. I'm curious how many people will reference you a week, month or year from now. **[Robert Scoble](http://scobleizer.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-02 23:25:42 Wow, welcome to the web where everyone knows you real name. **[Todd](http://twitter.com/ronin691?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 05:40:36 "I felt a great disturbance in The Force. As if a millions permalinks cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced." **[Terrell Russell](http://terrellrussell.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 05:44:34 Welcome :) From a post a couple years ago... http://weblog.terrellrussell.com/2006/06/consolidation-of-self-in-an-interconnected-world/ Now, on to individuals. We will begin to make the same realizations, personally, that the companies made about their own visibility and place in the world. We’ll be realizing our own face to the world, our own identities, are now a conversation, searchable, findable (you are what you post) - and that there are most definitely reviews out there that can be read and analyzed. It is a very flat place. It’s accessible and negligibly free, a powerful combination. Now, there are great differences between companies and individuals, sure - culturally, financially, legally. The mechanics of how this will all go down will not be the same, but the end result - a consolidation and awareness of the “self” we project - will be identical to what business went through ten years ago. Your social networks will make sure that it’s really hard for you to have a persona online that’s any different from who you are in “real life”. In fact, what I’m saying is that “in real life (IRL)” will be a quaint colloquialism in just a few short years. We’ll look back and laugh at our simplicity of understanding and comprehension for where we were headed. In an always-on, well-connected world, our social dynamics will change a little bit - but not much. We’ve had too many years (all of them) of being social creatures to change much now. Our friends will be our friends and our enemies will be our enemies. No online or offline about it. **Fred** ¡ 2009-03-03 06:42:34 I've also made the turn away from my forever-nick to my 'real name' (fstutzman). I'm pleased with how easy Twitter made it. My reasons were a little different (network segmentation), and chimprawk will live on. But I too grew a little tired of the cognitive dissonance of the enigmatic nick. **[Fabricio Zuardi](http://fabricio.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 08:43:46 At least you haven't changed your nickname to a symbol not in the unicode set, it would be painful to type @the\_blogger\_formerly\_known\_as\_factoryjoe every time :) **[Ed Borasky](http://www.linkedin.com/in/edborasky?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 09:27:15 Well ... I'm really of two minds on this. I've been "znmeb" for a \*long\* time -- since before the Internet as we know it. In fact, at one point I even considered putting it on vanity license plates. But: 1\. There are places that won't accept an ID of only five characters. Once I have to go to six, I either end up as "zznmeb", which isn't really "me", or using something like "boraskye" or "eborasky". So why not "edborasky" or "ed\_borasky"? 2\. There are places that "encourage" a real name, and there, I use it. So ... I think I'm going to keep "znmeb" wherever it works, but pick some variant of my name elsewhere. **Josh Elman** ¡ 2009-03-03 09:37:35 Welcome to the identity revolution. Well, you are leading a lot of it, but now we know it's the same Chris Messina. **[Calli](http://avirtualtourist.wikispaces.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 09:42:12 When I started out in social media - reaching out and exploring, I used different usernames. Gradually all coalescing in my abbreviated real name - Callie. Yes of course the original was taken lol. So most places I am just Calli. Or if Calli is taken I have used CallieO. There is a very good book on web personalities which I must dig out again - about characteristics that are exaggerated in online environments. **[Joe Stump](http://www.joestump.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 10:09:14 Great post. I agree with Gary and Ryan that Web 2.0 is about building personal brand. While I think factoryjoe is your personal brand, I think they're right it's a better long term bet to create a brand around Chris Messina. The hard part is in the short term: changing your names elsewhere, redoing the blog, etc, etc. :) **[Elias Bizannes](http://liako.biz/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 10:24:42 Nice! Good to see you not just intelligent but an educated man as well. **[theWebdood](http://thewebdood/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 10:29:30 But what will you do with all of your superhero costumes with "FJ" embroidered on the chest? **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 12:03:20 I personally find handles easier to deal with, and I like the whole "personal" brand idea that a person is represented by one unique identifier all across the web (like, Google "singpolyma"... I love how those are definitely all me). Still, it's not like no one knew your name, so this won't be terribly confusing. Actually, the worst thing is that "chrismessina" is longer than "factoryjoe". @replies just got shorter.... Also permalinks, but that's partly twitter's fault. **Kate Williams** ¡ 2009-03-03 12:51:50 Great post. I'd like to own the factory illustration - gorgeous. I'm struggling with this whole issue as I am kind of a gun for various hires - what does one do if one has to 'be' different people? My own \[real\] personality is different from all these identities (and considerably swearier). Gah. **[alvaro](http://alvarodiazcastro.tumblr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 13:20:51 It's nice to see real name on real people, not nicknames and avatars... Maybe something about trust from analog world. Who knows. But, this way of moving the same id everywhere makes things more easy, to track, to follow, to search, to build a background, to be. The same one. I've played a lot with alter-ego names and at the end they never described me, or I never feel identified with them. To be practical I began to use my real name in blog comments, chats, social websites and my email & microblog. Digital ID is also the unreal me in a 'non existin-place', the wanna be? Maybe a fashion way of seen us, showing what we like and hiding what we don't. I'll keep using my real id / name in the net, in my case it's ok. **[Todd Sieling](http://toddsieling.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 20:57:52 Welcome to the new identity, same as the old identity, since I'll always think of you as both. But I'm also a fan of real names online, and I think it's a necessary maturation for online identity to be treated as seriously as its effects are becoming. If potential employers are googling your name and fishing through Facebook pictures like a journalist digging through someone's trash, then they should be certain they have the right person. Without a solid identity layer, the web will continue to be a place where truth, fiction and simple misunderstanding around a real person can too easily blend and cause real harm. **[Andy Beard](http://andybeard.eu/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 21:59:46 One factor, it is 2 character longer now It is a significant change, whereas I would have suggested cmessina or chrism if available **[Jose Arocha](http://www.josearocha.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 22:33:48 Chris, Congratulations! Should I feel partially and happily responsible for inviting this move with my question about your personal brand/identity a couple of weeks ago? jejeje. After giving it some thought, I am also moving my twitter ID from @jose to @josearocha for my english-speaking audience and launching www.josearocha.com tomorrow. The SEO force be with you. Cheers! **[ryan](http://freeryan.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-05 08:57:18 How did you get Twitter to migrate all your following and followers? **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-05 09:06:07 @ryan: If you go under your Twitter settings and change your username, everything is automatically migrated over. I didn't involve Twitter folks at all in the change. **[Mark Brown](http://blogs.msdn.com/markjbrown?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-05 20:35:06 Hey Chris. That's a great post. I could actually feel the catharsis you experienced as you resolved the cognitive dissonance between the two and came to a new understanding :) **[velmont.net/](http://www.velmont.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-17 13:32:57 I've never quite hidden behind my nick (Velmont). Because I've always written Velmont - Odin Hørthe Omdal. My real name is long, and it has and ø in it, and sadly, many places don't support non-ascii characters. I've also got a problem with my name, as I think Hørthe is soo nice, but Omdal is usual. But Omdal is my fathers lastname, and many people know who I am when I use that, -- so I can't decide what to call myself in real life, in the internet world it's easier having Velmont as the real name, and then just putting Odin Hørthe Omdal as my longer alternative ;\] **[ozten](http://ozten.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-23 07:01:18 Real Names don't scale as well as nicknames. I am all for disclosing real names on profile pages (Austin King here), but John Doe or Anil Gupta should have a chance to have an easily recognizable internet presence. **Krista Sanders** ¡ 2009-07-28 07:45:29 The funny thing is, this is all I ever did until someone convinced me that I was being completely uninventive. I will admit I'm having a bit of fun with my pseudo-persona for now. But, you are absolutely correct in terms of the basic principals of findability as well as this being a growing trend. Maybe someday in the next few months, I'll return to my roots. **[Identity and Identifiers — Will Norris](http://willnorris.com/2010/01/identity-and-identifiers?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-01 13:23:38 \[...\] require from the very beginning). While this is of course a personal decision, it’s one that Chris Messina recently undertook. Similarly, Tom Coates and Ben Metcalfe, two individuals who understand online \[...\] ### Future of White Boys' Clubs Redux #fowaspeak URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/future-of-white-boys-clubs-redux-fowaspeak-3/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:42.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3312134627/?ref=chrismessina.me)In September of 2006, I wrote a piece called [The Future of White Boy Clubs](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/09/15/the-future-of-white-boy-clubs/?ref=chrismessina.me) taking to task [Ryan Carson](http://www.carsonified.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) for putting together a speaker lineup for his [Future of Web Apps conference](http://events.carsonified.com/fowa?ref=chrismessina.me) made up entirely of white men (for the record, [Tantek](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) resents being lumped in as "white"; he’s says he’s Turkish). As a white male speaker, I wanted to make a point that not just lamented the dearth of female speakers, but also asserted a broader point about the value of diversity to tech conferences. Two and half years later and the future of the web was yet again being presented from the perspective of a [bunch of white guys](http://events.carsonified.com/fowa/2009/miami/speakers?ref=chrismessina.me) — and were it not for a last minute substitution, [Kristina Halvorson](http://www.braintraffic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) wouldn’t have made it on stage as the sole female voice. [](http://flickr.com/photos/judxapp/3307193183/?ref=chrismessina.me)Kristina felt compelled to say something and so she did, sharing the last 10 of her 25 speaking minutes with Ryan Carson and me, confronting this perennial elephant in the room and [calling for specific action](http://twitter.com/halvorson/status/1245659850?ref=chrismessina.me). Without context, some members of the audience [felt ambushed](http://twitter.com/pengwynn/statuses/1251929284?ref=chrismessina.me). But Kristina hadn’t planned to bring this up on stage; she wanted to talk about copy! Had progress been made over the last two years, she wouldn’t have had to. But she felt strongly — and after receiving encouragement from [Kevin Marks](http://epeus.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Daniel Burka](http://www.deltatangobravo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and me — she decided to raise the issue because, frankly, *no one else* had plans to. She didn’t merely want to complain and didn’t wish to [inspire guilt](http://twitter.com/thomascox/status/1245573684?ref=chrismessina.me) in the predominantly white male audience (what’s there to feel guilty about anyway?). [Her point](http://jordanfulghum.com/blog/?p=3&disqus%5Freply=6703741&ref=chrismessina.me#comment-6703741) was to frame the issue in a way that helped people recognize the symptoms of the problem, identify where responsibility lies (*answer: with all of us*) and provide constructive means to address them. Let’s be real: I doubt it’s lost on anyone that the tech industry and its requisite events lack women. We know this. And we all suffer as a result (for the perspective and experiences they bring, among other things). Lately it’s getting worse: depending on the study you read, there are more females online than males, and yet [enrollment by that demographic in computer science is on the wane](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/business/16digi.html?%5Fr=1&ref=chrismessina.me). Events that purport to be about the “future of web” and yet fail to present speakers that represent the web’s actual diversity serve only to perpetuate this trend. Turns out, white men also [don’t have the monopoly](http://twitter.com/chrismessina/status/1245630066?ref=chrismessina.me) on the [best speakers](http://shesgeeky.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) — **even in the tech industry** — yet their ilk continue to make up a highly disproportionate number of the folks who end up on stage. And that means that good content and good ideas and important perspectives aren’t making it into the mix that should be, and as a result, audiences are getting short-changed. The question is no longer “[where are all the women?](http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2005/02/66603?ref=chrismessina.me)” — it’s why the hell aren’t white men making sure that women are up on stage telling their story and sharing the insights that they uniquely can provide! Why should it only be women who raise their voices on this issue? This isn’t just “their” problem. This is [all of our problem](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2006/09/conferences-on-trial-who-is-to-blame.html?ref=chrismessina.me), and each of us has something to do about it, or knows someone who should be given an audience but has yet to be discovered. As a conference organizer, Ryan pointed out that he’s not omniscient. As a fellow conference organizer, I can tell you that you aren’t going to achieve diversity just by [talking about it](http://twitter.com/chrismessina/status/1245718302?ref=chrismessina.me). You have to work at it. To use a lame analogy: if you want food at your event, you’ve got to actually place the order, not just “talk about it”. Similarly, with female speakers and attendees, you’ve got to work at it, and you’ve got to think about their needs and what will get them come to you (remember, it’s the audience [that’s missing out here](http://twitter.com/songcarver/statuses/1251779048?ref=chrismessina.me)). Now, to be fair, I know that Ryan and his team reached out to women. I know that some were too busy; others unavailable; some accepted only to later cancel. Yet still, only [two of eight workshops](http://events.carsonified.com/fowa/2009/miami/workshops?ref=chrismessina.me) were run by women (with Kristina doing double duty as the only female speaker). It wasn’t for complete lack of effort that more women weren’t on stage or in the audience; it was also the [lack of visibility](http://www.personism.com/2006/10/11/list-of-women-speakers-for-your-conference/?ref=chrismessina.me) of — and outreach to — women operating on the cutting edges of [technology](http://www.womenwhotech.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [business, and the web](http://girlsintech.net/about-us/?ref=chrismessina.me). This is what our on-stage discussion sought to address by soliciting recommendations from members of the audience tagged with [**#fowaspeak**](http://search.twitter.com/search?q=fowaspeak&ref=chrismessina.me). By bringing the negative spaces in the conference agenda to the fore — calling attention to the incidental omission of women presenters — we acknowledged that that lack wasn’t necessarily the realization of intent but something more insidious. It [isn’t that women need “help” from white men](http://jordanfulghum.com/blog/?p=3&ref=chrismessina.me); this isn’t about capability. To the contrary, the saturation of men in technology leads to women become marginalized and invisible. They are there, and they are present, but somehow we don’t miss them when they’re not up on stage standing next to us. And that’s something that absolutely must change. Turning the spotlight to deserving women who work just as hard (if not harder) than men does not diminish them, nor should it [minimize their accomplishments](http://twitter.com/mikegee/statuses/1246139924?ref=chrismessina.me). An intelligent audience should be able to discern who on stage is meritorious and who is not. That there are fewer women in the industry means first that conference organizers need work harder to find them and second that audiences need to become vigilant about their absences on conference schedules. It is something that all of us must internalize as our own struggle and then take ongoing, explicit actions to address. As far as I’m concerned, one of the greatest opportunities to seize the future of web apps is to cement the necessity of diversity in our processes and in our thinking, not [for the sake of diversity alone](http://twitter.com/markjaquith/status/1245787138?ref=chrismessina.me) (deserving though it is) but because the technology that we produce is better for it, being more robust, more versatile and flexible, and ultimately, more humane. The future of web apps — and the conferences that tell their stories — should not be gender-neutral or gender-blind — but **gender-balanced**. Today, as it was two years ago, we suffer from a severe imbalance. It is my hope that, in raising the specter of consequences of the lack of women in technology, we begin to make as much progress in stitching diversity into the fabric of our society as we are making in producing source code. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Lucretia Pruitt](http://geekmommy.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 09:13:38 Well I'm glad you said it... because whenever one of us says it, we get told we're either a) whining or b) not 'fixing' the issue ourselves. Now the question will be what the rest of the "white male speaker/organizer" community responds to this with? Indifference - Indignance - or Action? **[Robert Gaal](http://53miles.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 09:23:04 Don't you think you're trying to balance something that should balance itself? Forcing the issue has numerous negatives sides. Conference organizers getting female speakers just because of their gender for instance. Or conference visitors that question the real achievements of a woman on stage. You could end up with an exactly opposite result. I'm very much skeptical about that. **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 09:44:11 @Robert Gaal - I agree. The disbalance may not be good, but forcing it to change may be much worse. **[Jessica Doyle](http://jessicadoyle.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 09:48:58 Change begins when one talks about it :) This was a good read. I enjoyed it. **Srdjan Pejic** ¡ 2009-02-27 09:54:45 @Robert, yeah, but it's a chicken and egg problem, isn't it? If female experts don't feel like people will listen to them nor attend their talks, they won't do them, right? Yet, if we, "white males", start bitching about being "ambushed" just because the elephant in the room is pointed out, that doesn't say much about our willingness to include women in the little circle of presenters. So, I agree, the issue needs to be forced, even if gently so. Also, this should not stop at only women being included. The other part here is the "white" part. Where are all the black or Indian or Asian speakers? Let's take the problem on head-on. **[Kevin Scaldeferri](http://kevin.scaldeferri.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 09:56:43 @Robert Gaal - In my experience, you may be worried about a problem that doesn't exist. From what I've seen, the average female speaker at tech conferences is pretty awesome, and the average male speaker is boring and underprepared. Yeah, I've seen people on the IRC backchannel discussing the attractiveness of female speakers rather than the content of their talks, but really, those individuals need to STFU, and the rest of us need to tell them to STFU. **[George Ornbo](http://shapeshed.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 10:02:22 There are the same issues at stake as positive discrimination in any other walk of life so I can see some heavy debate on this. The current situation is unhealthy. We need more women in the industry and we need more women as industry leaders. Ensuring women are well represented at conferences (or represented at all) is part of this. **[Burcu Dogan](http://burcudogan.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 10:03:34 Thanks for speaking out. Like Robert and Stephen, I dont believe it is a good idea to force the community’s nature although I am a woman. Male/female ratio is not just the conferences issue but the industry’s itself. Mainly, 70% is male and worse, many of the 70% is truly old minded. You may not believe but, once I saw an industry veteran talking in public about being gifted and was born as a male, so that he has more brains for maths. This is ridiculous, but noising around doesn’t make it any better. If we want a change in diversity, minorities should stand up and fight for their place. **[Luke Rodgers](http://www.lukerodgers.ca/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 10:07:42 Thanks for the insightful post, Chris. @Robert Gaal, I think we can all agree that intentional action undertaken by concerned parties is an integral part of "things balancing themselves out", and that in the absence of such efforts the status quo tends to prevail. That said, if efforts to increase diversity are undertaken carelessly and without consideration for some of the pitfalls alluded to, there is certainly the possibility for negative and counterproductive effects. The idea that audience members might question the achievements of a panel member is a bit of a red herring, though, as this can happen in any situation and there is no reason to think that making more concerted efforts to increase the diversity of such events would water down the quality. **[David](http://raconteuring.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 10:09:25 Interesting. Determining who's on stage isn't democratic, right? There's one person (or a committee) who decides these things. Maybe there just needs to be more female conference organizers? I wonder why the number of women enrolling in tech are waning. **[Brian Suda](http://suda.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 10:23:08 One of the biggest counter arguments to diversity that tends to appear is that "I want the best speakers, I don't care if they are male or female, I want to be sure I get the best". While I personally want value for money from any event, people forget about serendipity. If all we hear from are people of similar interests and backgrounds, it turns into an echo chamber rather than any sort of reality. Some conferences I have attended, it wasn't the high-priced keynote speaker reciting the same presentation he's done 100 times before that was the most interesting, it was the shy youngster that has a great idea, but no one was listening. Serendipity is very hard to create, but by simply shaking things-up you increase your chances of finding something new. New ideas from new, fresh, different people spark our own minds into thinking in different ways. If all you want is to be sure your money is well spent, then go to these monotone conferences. If you are willing to take a risk, see some interesting people and some not so interesting, then you will take away a lot more the event in the long run. Because, in the real world, not all your clients, co-workers, friends (or enemies) will be white males. There is no formula to a good speaker line-up, you want the event to flow smoothly, for everyone to be engaged and entertained. It is easily to stick with the status quo, it is much, much harder to try something new and risk failure... but isn't that what we are trying to do everyday with our web start-up culture? Why is this not reflected in our web-education as well? **[Marc Canter](http://marc.blogs.it/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 10:54:57 Not only do we need to be gender balanced, but also race and ethnicity balanced. **[Xavez](http://xooz.be/xavez?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 10:59:15 What David said. I don't get it. What exactly needs to be compensated for? Maybe you should also invite Jewish speakers, because they are under-represented. Or maybe you should invite gay speakers, both male and female. Or maybe you should invite speakers that are mute. Just because, you know, they never get a chance to say what *they* think. I am exaggerating, obviously. What I am trying to say is this: the more you try to invite people of so-called "minority groups", the more you are stigmatising them as a "minority group". It's as if you're doing a female speaker a favour *just because she's female*, which, in the end has little or nothing to do with her knowledge of a certain subject and her ability to speak in front of an audience. This way, you are reinstating yourself as superior to the other person, because **you** have the power to invite that poor gay/Asian/female/Protestant. Just invite who you think is fit for the job. No strings attached. **Rachel Lehman** ¡ 2009-02-27 11:19:46 I don't want men to work harder to get women on stage, I want women to work harder to get themselves on stage. As a woman who is in this industry and attends (and sometimes speaks at) conferences, I've never felt any gender discrimination targeted at me, but I've certainly been frustrated by the lack of women who get involved. I believe if a woman is qualified, capable and motivated to speak at a conference, it's no harder for her to get there than a man. I would be insulted if I was asked to speak at a conference to balance out the M-F ratio. **[Jordan](http://jordanfulghum.com/blog/?p=3&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 11:29:00 Thanks for this post and explaining your position, Chris. The part that I take up the most objection to is this: "The saturation of men in technology leads to women become marginalized and invisible." You could substitute many words for 'men' and 'women' in that sentence. For instance: "The saturation of computer science majors in technology leads to architects becoming marginalized and invisible." Or to make my point futher: "The saturation of tall people in the NBA marginalizes the short guys." I'm sure there are architects in technology and short players in the NBA. But the wonderful part about our industry is that the playing field is even more level. The internet is truly a meritocracy, where everyone and anyone can do something incredible. We want to hear from those people that do incredible things, regardless of race or gender. Let's keep the focus on technology, which we all love, and let the rest happen organically. **Kathy Sierra** ¡ 2009-02-27 11:30:51 I disagree (strongly) with this approach, although I believe it was awfully brave of Kristina (and Ryan), and certainly well-intentioned. For the most part, I think women-in-tech (or virtually any other X-in-tech) is best served focusing on the tech. Or in the case of a speaker at ANY event: focusing on helping the paying attendees become better at whatever it is they're trying to do. Yes, diversity matters and helps all... I just feel that this approach is not only NOT helpful, but counter-productive. More and more today, when women in tech stop focusing on "but we're women" and focus on what they love and why they love it, everyone is better served and the right things happen. Kevin's point is a good one, however -- I have been horrified by the backchannel discussions at some events where people (men) didn't know who I was and focused on the fact that I was a female. But about 10 minutes into the talk the backchannel topics shifted from "what the hell is this chick doing at OSCON?!" to whether they agreed/loved/hated the specific points I was making. As it should be. Again, this is not about "proving" anything... it is about simply staying true to the reasons we are all there and trusting that there are better places to effect the dynamics that have contributed to this imbalance. One look at things like SXSWi shows that women are not missing from the broader tech discussions, but FOWA is still viewed as a more dev-heavy event. I'm merely one woman in tech with one perspective and virtually no expertise in gender studies, etc. But I do have a great deal of experience in the tech world and as many of you know, I've been dragged through one of its darkest sides. After all this, I still believe women in tech are best served by staying true to what they love about tech, and helping others--men & women-- improve. **[Adam Lowry](http://adam.therobots.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 11:41:38 I applaud you and Kristina for speaking out about this. Increasing diversity where it's not present is a difficult task, and made much more difficult when people aren't cognizant of their own privilege. It's even more difficult when people don't value diversity itself; if that's not seen as an intrinsic good it's hard for many to accept that the lack of it is a problem to be addressed. **[Selena Deckelmann](http://www.chesnok.com/daily/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 11:50:18 David: We're doing what we can. :) I feel a little spoiled in the tech scene in Portland, OR. I go to tech user group meetings that are entirely women (Code-n-splode), or where we are 25-50% of the participants. Many of the tech events are organized by women, but I think men are pretty fairly represented as organizers as well. My goal for free/open source software (other than world domination) is \~50% women being involved. "Involved" means lots of things, and it certainly means getting a few more ladies up on stage. I think IgnitePortland is a great example of gender balance in speakers. HickTech is another great example. Not meaning to leave anyone else awesome out of my list here, just pointing a couple out off the top of my head. My buddies at http://opensourcebridge.org/ and I are working on achieving greater diversity in attendance as well as speakers. We'll report back to you how we did after the conference. -selena **[David](http://raconteuring.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 12:15:02 Oh, and just by looking at the attitudes of the comments broken down by gender lines, you're right. Obviously this is something that needs to be talked about. **[Brian Oberkirch](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 12:24:54 Hey, it's time to do this again, eh? After all the hullaballoo last go round, I have a simpler suggestion. Curate a panel or curate a conference. Really. Talk someone into letting you slate the list or start your own event. Model the behavior you want to see. Explain your thinking. Be prepared that it's harder than you think. Gender are race are but two of the factors you'll need to balance. (For instance, when I drafted Leslie Chicoine into the discussion about portable social networks I was thinking we need 1) designers and 2) people who have implemented this stuff.) But you \*can\* make an awesome speaker line up that is full of vitamins & minerals. Look at the job they did with Etech this year. Or the Start Conference. Or Do It With Drupal. **[Fabricio Zuardi](http://fabricio.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 13:53:28 The lineup for the conference should focus on bringing the best people of each field to share experiences and tell their stories. Period. If FOWA is not being successful on this goal, that should be the target of our criticism IMHO, not the lack of persons from one group or another. **[Ryan Carson](http://www.carsonified.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 15:45:26 The most important thing to do is make sure that you have a diverse and interesting group of speakers when you make up your initial list of potential speakers. After that, it's impossible to control this list very well. The reason is that people cancel, say no, or ask to speak on a different subject. It's \*very\* hard to control the final list of speakers unless you only have 1-3 speakers. Any more, it's hard to know what the final list is going to be like. I think the best way to tackle this problem is to let people submit ideas for speaking and select a few new folks every time. They should \*not\* be chosen based on their color, race, gender, or any other non-talent reason - solely on their idea and speaking ability (someone can be a genius and a really crap speaker - so they shouldn't go on stage). Like we said on stage in Miami, please tweet ideas and suggestions and tag them with #fowaspeak - we're listening! Thanks, Ryan **[John Allsopp](http://webdirections.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-27 20:18:29 Harvard Universities Project Implicit \[1\] has demonstrated that even he most open minded of us have many implicit prejudices, that are very difficult to consciously address. Interestingly, these "implicit associations" (including stereotyping based on a person's gender, race, sexual orientation and so on), may be changed through unconscious actions - by way of example, there's suggestion that watching highly successful african american athletes on television might reduce someone's unconscious prejudice against african americans \[2\]. It's surely uncontroversial that gender and race stereotypes play a significant role in just about every aspect of even the most liberal western democracies. As a simple example, by any measure, women are paid less \*for exactly the same roles\* as men. So, in the context of this, let's take a look at some of the conversation the Chris's post has elicited. What's interesting about many of the responses display what's termed "black and white" or binary thinking about this issue - which makes the issues much easier to "address" - and much more of a simple emotional debate, with easy pronouncements, rather than being seen as an ongoing cultural dialog that has been happening for centuries in a great many fields. We'll also see that many of the responses display these implicit associations about gender and ethnicity. Now, I've a lot of respect for those discussing it here, even those I don't agree with, so please the following is meant respectfully, even if for the purposes of brevity it doesn't come across as such - I'll do my best. For example Fabricio posits "The lineup for the conference should focus on bringing the best people of each field to share experiences and tell their stories. Period." In orchestral music, the long standing belief into the 1960s, '70s and in some cases beyond were that men simply made better concert musicians. But when the major orchestras of the world started blind auditions, the rate of women in those orchestras shot up almost overnight. The orchestras claimed they were choosing "the best people", but they weren't. Ironically, Chris is essentially arguing that a high preponderance of white male speakers is good prima facie evidence that you simply aren't getting the best speakers. Unless your belief is that white males are better speakers! There's a strong example of these implicit assumptions about gender and ethnicity in here - assuming any effort to increase diversity will diminish the quality of the conference presenters. With respect to Brian O, I don't think the only response to the problem is start your own conference - this is like arguing that if a large company is polluting, for instance, then what you should do is start a non polluting company to compete with them. It's an approach for sure, but I can't see how calling folks out for things they could improve is irrelevant. Pretty much every country in the world has anti discrimination laws. Probably events like these fall outside the penumbra of those laws, but their purport is clear - your responsibility as an employer is to not discriminate, and if 90% of your workforce, for instance is male and white, you'd have some 'splaining to do. Kathy writes "Again, this is not about “proving” anything… it is about simply staying true to the reasons we are all there and trusting that there are better places to effect the dynamics that have contributed to this imbalance" I see a similar compartmentalization to Brian's in Kathy's reasoning here - why can't we aim to achieve meta goals, such as better representation of minorities, women and so on, in addition to "the reasons why we are there" (and clearly there are many who would put issues like the one being discussed as part of their reason for being there). Where would these "better places" be? Surely the web teaches us that change starts at the edge and the bottom? Luke says "That said, if efforts to increase diversity are undertaken carelessly and without consideration for some of the pitfalls alluded to, there is certainly the possibility for negative and counterproductive effects" Is there much evidence that these negative and counterproductive effects are occurring? This concern seems to display once again this implicit association of anyone other than white males opening the possibility that somehow quality will fall. Take it from me as someone who puts on several conferences a year and watches probably hundreds of presentations, many white males suck ;-) In fact, if you are going to do any one thing, you ensure you get no company shills speaking at your events (and those folks have a VERY high chance of being white males). There's some discrimination we are definitely into ;-) Jordan says “The saturation of tall people in the NBA marginalizes the short guys.” I think in soccer this is called an own goal ;-) For NFL folks that's like a safety, but worse ;-) You equate short with women (and minorities) and tall with men, and in the context of basketball - where being tall is in effect an intrinsic "talent". The logic of your analogy is that inviting women and minorities to speak at conferences is effectively inviting less talented people to speak at a conference. I think we can see the problem of implicit association write large here. Rachel says "I believe if a woman is qualified, capable and motivated to speak at a conference, it’s no harder for her to get there than a man" I guess Chris's point is that this simply doesn't appear to be backed up by the numbers. Unfortunately, every time this conversation comes up, I find myself having to say (where it really ought to be a given) that of course women or minorities should not be given a speaking role simply because they are a woman or member of a minority. It's just that its a false dichotomy. My personal ethical decision is that I happen to be in some sort of position to do something, even if minor, to address something I see as less than ideal in our society - that women, and minorities are very often under represented, and much less visible than folks like me - white middle class men. We have conscious goals of ensuring that we address these sorts of issues (for example, looking for non stereotypical presenters - e.g. women talking about engineering and hard core developer stuff, not simply the low hanging fruit of talking about more traditional "female" topic areas) - we don't make a song and dance, it's just what we do cause we think its the right thing to do. We don't have a number - like 30% or 40% or whatever of the speaker list that should be non white male - we just go on feeling - does the balance look right? And of course the balance will look different here in Australia, where we don't have large latino and african american populations, but we do have many from a SE Asian background. Why do we do this? Aboveall, because it is our personal ethical decision. But if you are looking for practical positives 1\. when a keynote speaker stops mid sentence and says "wow - there's so many women here" - this happened not once but twice at WDN this year 2\. when up to 50% of our audience is women, as it often is - surely that translates into a bigger overall audience than we otherwise would have So, how do we go about this? It's really not rocket science, it's very doable, and frankly, other than a bit of extra effort, I don't see any downsides at all. We tend to work backwards from the subject areas we want covered at a conference to speakers who can present well in those areas - which gives us far more scope than starting with one of the "usual suspects" you'll see at a great many events, and going from there. No disrespect to you guys, and we've got more than our fair share of those folks speak at our events, because there usually a very good reason lots of people ask them to speak. We also look for other places in which women and other under represented groups in the industry can take steps toward the daunting prospect of their first full scale presentation - by having them chair sessions, for instance, or encouraging them to participate in something like Ignite events, where you can take smaller steps. Does our quality suffer? Not based on the feedback we get. Our audiences are bigger than they'd otherwise be, and I'd like to think that the overall social experience for all involved is improved by having a more diverse mix of people. I guess the bottom line is that there are folks doing this, its not an abstract discussion, and its frankly not that hard. It takes a concern to do it right, and a bit of extra effort, but to my mind, and in our experience, it's a no brainer. \[1\] https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ \[2\] http://thesituationist.wordpress.com/category/implicit-associations/ **[Gene Crawford](http://blog.period-three.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-28 06:37:29 I was there, didn't feel ambushed at all. I think the issue is truly worthy of discussion. After all if we don't open it up to public discussion no one will think about it. **[Joe Clark](http://joeclark.org/weblogs/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-28 07:12:44 Shorter FactoryJoe: Women are a minority in my industry but that should never be evident in speaker rosters. **[Molly](http://www.girlwonder.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-28 09:11:27 It's not about women or men. It's about people. If you don't model the behavior, there's no model for it. If people aren't represented, there's no idea of it. We're talking here about women and men: what about race? Paul Dourish mentioned to me that when he chaired Ubicomp 2006, half of the program committee was women. The result? Many more of the papers were also by women and the conference program was more varied. I wasn't able to pull up the ubicomp.org 2006 site today but suggest googling it and looking at the cache. We've been keeping lists for years of women you might invite to your next technology or design conference. Jen Bekman keeps the high-powered [List of Women Speakers for Your Conference](http://www.personism.com/2006/10/11/list-of-women-speakers-for-your-conference/?ref=chrismessina.me). Anne Galloway and Alexandra Deschamps-Sonsino updated Anne's list (I made some additions too): http://designswarm.com/blog/2009/01/07/something-worth-blogging-about/ **[Kristina Halvorson](http://halvorson.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-28 10:54:03 Howdy. Chris, thanks for the post. Lots of great discussion happening here, which is fine. But ultimately, sparking this tired debate wasn't my intention. We brought this conversation to the stage at FOWA because – as Chris, Ryan and I agreed – talking about it in blogs, forums and listservs simply isn't working. We were interested in giving individuals who care about diversity onstage a quick, easy way to: Help Carsonified quickly and easily gather ideas for new, diverse speakers Provide a few easy tips and tools for people who are interested in speaking at conferences but don't know how to get started Give their smart friends some encouragement to speak And, you know, whatever. It was fine. Those ten minutes really pissed some people off, but really excited and invigorated others. (Frankly, I myself would have preferred to have been back at the pool, or at least hiding in the bathroom.) But. The end result is that Ryan has publicly stated that he values diversity in programming and that he wants to make it a priority moving forward. And, thanks to a hashtag, he has a big ol' list of women and minority speakers for consideration at future Carsonified conferences. (So that this list is actually useable and valuable to the Carsonified team, I'm personally working with a few volunteers to ensure it includes each potential speaker's contact information, professional background, and, if applicable, previous speaking experience.) Folks. I know you're sick of talking about this. Me, too. But I think it's important for newcomers to this discussion – of which there are many, every time – to understand why diversity in conference programming is a challenge, both for the organizers and for potential speakers. So, for you old-timers, thanks for your patience while some of us get up to speed. In general, if you've read the arguments for diversity onstage and you still don't think the topic deserves attention or action, that's cool. I can respect your position and still disagree with it. If you do think it's worthy of action (beyond working hard at what you love and hoping the situation corrects itself), then there are things you can \*do\* that are ultimately way more effective than just talking about it. If you're a conference attendee: Actively encourage smart women and minorities in your professional community to seek out speaking opportunities If you know someone locally who would kick ass on the national stage, and that someone is up for it, don't hesitate to send their name to a conference organizer (via email, Twitter, blog post comment, whatever) If you see an awesome woman or minority speaker at a conference, and you know another conference where they might be a good fit, walk up and suggest it to them In conference feedback forms, be consistent about telling the organizers you value diversity, and either a) congratulate them for achieving it, or b) challenge them to work harder for it If you're a conference programmer: Don't think about diversity after you've started making your list of desired speakers … think about it FIRST, on par with "who will people pay to see?" Use social media to ask attendees for ideas – this is almost too easy, but it obviously works Seek out women- and minority-focused listservs where you can announce calls for proposals Be brave about taking a chance on newbies when and where it's appropriate If you're a potential speaker who's still on the fence or doesn't know how to get started, find me on Twitter @halvorson for ideas. There are dozens of things you can do to pursue opportunities on both local and national stages. And if you're a smart, compelling speaker with ideas about how to make the web a better place, after your first gig or two, the opportunities will begin to find you. And now, I'd like to talk about content strategy. No. Seriously. **[Brian Oberkirch](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-28 11:55:28 John: I'm only being slightly glib. After another Carson conference 2 years ago we had \*exactly\* the same conversation. Same points. Same heat. The larger questions of getting more types of people involved with Web design & development get elided, and we really haven't even made much headway figuring out good ways to improve representation when it comes to the educational component. So, it's a weary, wary suggestion to tend your own garden, in order to at least effect some sort of change. Suggest people when you can, encourage people to submit ideas, try to influence organizers, roll your own panels, etc. As you say clearly, it's a personal, ethical decision. There's an entire economic component to the discussion, too. Who's a 'draw' to a paying crowd, who actually gets paid to speak, who gets travel subsidized, etc. For me, one of the most positive things we can do is start getting different types of people to show up to the events in the first place. If that means comping passes to people who don't typically come or can't afford it, maybe that's an investment in the future of our industry we should make. All of these things highlight for me why Barcamps & other pick-up basketball game type of events have such a good vibe: the barriers for everyone involved are different, and so you get a different type of dynamic. **[Brian Oberkirch](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-28 12:04:17 And there \*has\* been a FOWA show with a diverse speaker roster. I curated a two day business track at FOWA London in 2007 that about 60% 'white boys' (in Messina parlance). I even invited UX types. And Dick Costolo. It was crazy go nuts. I think it was also the first big show Robert Kalin did. And he was awkward and underprepared and absolutely mesmerizing. **[jet](http://www.allartburns.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-28 13:33:56 Marginalia: eight of the 14 students in the graduate Interaction Design program at CMU are female, . **[Barbara Hui](http://www.barbarahui.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-01 18:39:45 I have never had to wait in line for the women's bathroom at the "dev-heavy" tech conferences/courses I've been to, because there are are so few women in the audience. And when I see a woman on stage at a dev-heavy tech conference, I notice her. I wish she didn't jump out at me like that, but she does, because she's often the only woman speaker. I'm pretty sure she must jump out at everybody else too. I wish there were representative diversity not just on the dev-heavy tech conference stage but across the board in that industry. I'm sure there are some companies/programs where women are well- or even over-represented, but I'm talking about on average. I don't think anybody can disagree that overall, the numbers of women in dev-heavy tech are woefully low. So what to do? Obviously letting things run their natural course has not resulted in representative diversity! Just as has been the case in countless other math/science/tech forums, this is clearly not a place that is attracting and/or retaining women, for one reason or another. I think it would help if the industry were pro-active about implementing logistical, cultural changes to make hi-tech dev a more feasible, more attractive place for women to work. I have been consistently impressed with stories I've heard about Deloitte and Touche's "Women's Initiative," for example (http://is.gd/lmMl). While I would not personally want to go into consulting for various reasons, one of my brightest women friends chose to work for Deloitte precisely because of their initiative, which customizes work around women's needs and works with women so that they are not forced to choose between career and family, for example. More kick-a\*\* women developers should mean more of them on stage, right? I know this is coming at it from a different perspective, but just my 2 cents... **[Simone Brummelhuis](http://thenextwomen.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-02 03:59:26 Our existence of our business magazine, thenextwomen.com was a direct result of my conversation with the guys on thenextweb.com of the lack of female speakers. http://thenextwomen.com/2008/06/23/search-for-female-internet-heroes/ We started the concept of female internet heroes and compiled a list of women founding, investing or leading in the internet indusry, just to make women more visible, for their own benefit and the benefit of the community. More women speakers will attract more women in the audience. Positive discrimination, whether it is on the board of companies or as judge in a panel, or as a speaker on conferences, will bring about more quantity of women, buying tickets in the audience, submitting their startups for a competition, and according to many studies, also more quality, as diverse teams are more innovative than all male or all female teams. Personally, I am involved in a lot of initiatives, like the jury of the Dutch Accenture Innovation Awards, and the UK Board of Astia.org and our own The NextWomen events to stimulate female led companies to go ahead, come forward, present your self, pitch your company, and get funding. Leadership issues of women themselves play a big role in why women do not submit speaker proposals, ask to be in the jury and wait to get properly funded etc. So we profile them, push them and show that the are plenty of women in the internet industry worth inviting. **[aynne](http://www.avalen.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-02 09:03:49 Thank you for this post. In my career, I have been been privileged to work with some of the best and brightest talents who are thoughtful, articulate, intelligent and from diverse backgrounds. Its time the public face of our industry reflected who we really are. For anyone interested there is a list of female speakers here: http://danimalik.com/speakers/ Thanks Chris for bringing this topic up. **[Liz Henry](http://liz-henry.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-02 10:19:15 That was brave of Kristina. It sucks to be in that position on so many levels. Speaking up exposes you to further accusations of being tokenized and having to defend your qualifications or right to be there. And there is extra backlash for pointing out lack of diversity. I really admire her for saying it right in the moment and right out on stage. **[Ruby Sinreich](http://openid.claimid.com/rubyji?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-02 10:33:18 Thanks to Chris for presenting this issue fairly and articulately. It's not that women are the minority in tech, it's that we're the minority in certain influential and/or visible cliques. The most frustrating response I've gotten is from men who say that if I see a problem, I should work harder to make sure the organizers know about me and other women speakers. Sorry but it's YOUR conference that threatens to suck, YOU need to be the one to fix it. When I look at your web sites and see a mostly white male speaker lineup I don't even see the point of attending. (I'm talking to you BlogWorld, Internet Summit, etc.) It's not actually that hard to find a vaguely representative group of speakers if you are already immersed in a broad community. And the Internet makes it pretty easy to find and join such communities. (Start with Women Who Tech, Blog Her, She's Geeky, and so on - and that's just for women. There are similar affinity groups of people of color and other folks you don't hear from enough. We're not hiding!) Oh and if I have to add myself to yet another list of women tech speakers... **[Liz Henry](http://liz-henry.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-02 10:35:14 I have a bit more to add. One, I agree with Marc Canter. 8-) Two, to Brian's point about how to act to help the situation, I have specific advice. Extend your reading awareness to women and people of color who are talking about tech and making great tools. If your feeds are 90% white men, your information landscape is seriously flawed. Extend your network in a serious way. If you are aware of a conference, and are writing up your own proposal to speak at it, then think through the people you know and go tell some women and people of color - \*whose work and thoughts and capabilities you now may actually be aware of\* - about the call for proposals, what you know about the conference, who will be there whose work would be relevant, offer to read through their draft proposal or talk over IM with them about the conference. In short offer real community, not tokenization. It is partly the informal register that this needs to happen. Go to that conference but bring more people with you. You can't do that if you don't even know they're there. I just recently heard someone refer to a black woman writing web apps in a particular city as a "unicorn" as if she were impossibly rare and my head exploded because I had \*just\* been to a conference with about 100 black women web and social media folks from that very city. I am not blaming only individual ignorance here. It is a systemic and pervasive problem too. But, when I go speak at conferences it is often because someone did specific outreach to pull me into a network - beyond sending a single call for proposals email to a women-only mailing list. So I'm trying to recommend what worked for me. Point three is to recommend more of a collective approach. Go look at what organizations have come to be that are women or people or color. Go look at the speaker list for Blogging While Brown just for example. And invite several people, talk to that event's organizers, offer some sponsorship, offer a partnership or joint event. SXSWi has done this very well with success, as many people have pointed out. **[Amy Sample Ward](http://amysampleward.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 01:56:12 Thanks for pushing this conversation to continue; I really appreciate it! I've shared the experience of showing up at an event, workshop, conference, etc. and finding myself the only female on the panel/at the front. It obviously doesn't help, either, that I'm usually the or one of the youngest, too. It's been my experience, though, that when those situations happen, the audience becomes pretty aware of it and that awareness manifests in questions, conversations, and topics that mean I have no time or very little time to actually talk my work, thoughts, ideas, NetSquared or anything else - other than how did I get into this line of work? How is it being a woman in technology? What other women in tech do I know that I could connect people to? And so forth. I'm always happy to answer those questions, but I \*was\* asked to speak on something other than my gender + sector. I could probably make a pretty great slide deck about it; but I'm usually more confident with my standard nptech stuff :) So, that is all to say that, I think people are ready for this conversation and are just still at the stage where it's, "say what you see," and not move into action. I feel like with groups such as Women Who Tech and the corresponding annual telesummit, The Next Woman, and so forth that there are ways of connecting with women in the field if you are a conference organizer or a "white man" among many. Guess I don't have any answers, but, am happy the conversation can move to a higher platform. Thanks! **[Joe Clark](http://joeclark.org/weblogs/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 15:11:59 Liz, I would appreciate an acknowledgement that the elite of the Web read sites via newsreader, which reduces all sites to interchangeable bare HTML rendered in that newsreader. Not all, maybe even not many, personal blogs have the owner’s name in the RSS title; some of those names are ambiguous (Chris? Pat?); even names that are unambiguous as to sex say nothing about race, etc. The long-term Web elite even forgets where the hell they ever heard of half the blogs in their subscription lists. Maybe I’m not elite, but I am as long-term as is humany possible to be and I couldn’t tell you where easily a quarter of my 1,600 subscriptions came from. So if I were running a conference and I had to practise American-style affirmative action, what data do I really have at my ready disposal? This is distinct from what people here are calling “outreach.” Now, I would state a preference for a combination of interesting and novel topic and demonstrable onstage chops. *Then* maybe you can “positively discriminate.” **[John Allsopp](http://webdirections.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-03 15:21:16 Joe, "a preference for a combination of interesting and novel topic and demonstrable onstage chops. Then maybe you can “positively discriminate.”" That's a close approximation of our strategy - working backwards from content we think is relevant and interesting to our audience, then identifying possible presenters. The criteria we use for that include 1\. real domain experience and expertise 2\. the ability to hold an audience these two are threshold requirements After this come various objective and subjective criteria - which includes diversity it is very doable - but as mentioned previously, requires quite a bit more work than simply going with the most obvious candidates. **[Cass Brewer](http://www.t2pa.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-05 14:04:54 I'll second what Rachel said way above. Having been both a speaker and a conference organizer, my observation is that, especially when you're talking about a management-level audience, it's much easier to find opportunities as a female speaker than to find qualified women to speak. That gender imbalance in technology leadership is even more striking when you start looking at the small subset of knowledgeable, experienced leaders who also do public speaking. There's just a very small pool of female candidates. When I ran tech conferences, my organization actively sought women and other minorities as much as time and resources allowed. Still, the net-net was generally one or two additional women and/or minority speakers in our lineup---still not representative of our attendee population, and perhaps not even noticeable. In fact, our failure probably appeared worse than it was, because we drew a disproportionately female attendance in relation to our total member base. I dunno... Maybe women aren't as ego-driven to speak. Maybe they'd rather focus on their core professional responsibilities than be distracted by speaking engagements. Maybe their employers implicitly, culturally, or explicitly discourage them from speaking. Or maybe women jut prefer to lead from within the audience through commentary and questions, rather than leading through presentation. I've seen evidence of all of these factors. Whatever the reason, though, it amounts to a supply-side problem even for diversity-minded organizers. Bottom line: Pushing the issue from the demand side won't work: the business costs of finding those needles in the haystack are too high. If we want more women presenters at tech events---and I agree it would be beneficial---we need more (and more qualified) women to promote themselves as speakers. **[Sergio](http://vavilon7.com.ua/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-12-15 11:08:23 Web technologies so far remain the prerogative of men. Perhaps in the near future the situation will change. **[Weeknotes 24:08 | Jeff Bridgforth](https://jeffbridgforth.com/weeknotes-february-27-2024/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2024-02-27 07:07:12 \[…\] Future of White Boys’ Clubs Redux #fowaspeak (from 2009) \[…\] **[There Is No Such Thing as a Balanced Conference Program – Josh Anderson](http://joshanderson.me/2024/02/08/there-is-no-such-thing-as-a-balanced-conference-program/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2024-02-08 13:07:43 \[…\] Source: https://factoryjoe.com/2009/02/27/future-of-white-boys-clubs-redux-fowaspeak/ \[…\] ### BBC Digital Planet podcast featuring OpenID URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bbc-digital-planet-podcast-featuring-openid-2/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:20.000Z Update: The BBC has posted a write-up of the report called [Easy login plans gather pace](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7894730.stm?ref=chrismessina.me).[](http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/podcasts/digitalp/?ref=chrismessina.me)I was interviewed by [Gareth Mitchell](http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/presenters/gareth%5Fmitchell.shtml?ref=chrismessina.me) last week about OpenID for the BBC's [Digital Planet podcast](http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/podcasts/digitalp/?ref=chrismessina.me). Our conversation lasted about 10 minutes — of which only about [two minutes survived](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/digitalp%5F-17-feb-09.mp3?ref=chrismessina.me) (mirrored here as they currently do not keep an archive of previous episodes). It was a familiar conversation for me, since the primary concerns Gareth expressed had to do with privacy, identity and the notion that *"someone else"* could "own" another's identity on the web. His premise sounded familiar: "Won't OpenID make my identity more hackable?" The answer, of course, isn't that straight-forward, and depends on a lot of mitigating factors. However, the fundamental take-away is that **OpenID really is no more insecure than email**, and even then, provides a future-facing design that that leads to many kinds of protection that email, in practice, does not. . . . I've also noticed over the past several years that Europeans harbor much greater sensitivities to privacy issues while Americans tend to concentrate on matters concerning "property" (physical, personal and intellectual). This is evidenced by [yesterday's blow up](http://www.techmeme.com/090216/p91?ref=chrismessina.me#a090216p91) around Facebook's [changes to their Terms of Service](http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=54434097130&ref=chrismessina.me). On the one hand, there's this weird American [outcry against Facebook owning your data](http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=12959&ref=chrismessina.me) (in common, at least) forever. From the European side, it seems like the concern is centered more around [what the changes mean to one's privacy](http://broadstuff.com/archives/1564-Do-Facebooks-latest-Terms-of-Service-contravene-the-European-Data-Protection-Acts.html?ref=chrismessina.me), rather than whether Facebook can perpetually "make money" off your stuff. I bring this up because it's immensely relevant with regards to the conversation I had with Gareth (given that he's based in the UK). With the current case, I'm sympathetic to Facebook, because I know that this will be the year that people have their "mindframes" bent around new conceptions of personal privacy and control and ownership of data. I believe (as Facebook purports to) that people's desire to share will overcome their desire for control over their personal data, and that they will gradually realize that *sharing* will require *letting go*. It is this reality — *the reality of networked data in the cloud* — that necessitated Facebook's change to their terms of service — not some nefarious desire to steal your first born (or your data). In other words, the conditions and [kind of thinking](http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2008/01/07/BreakingTheSocialContractMyDataIsNotYourData.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me) that lead to the backlash against Plaxo known as [Scoblegate](http://furrier.org/2008/01/03/scoblegate-facebook-data/?ref=chrismessina.me) will cease to exist in the future. Facebook's change is merely a recognition of this new environment. It remains unclear to me whether the pundits in this space realize that this shift will occur, and will occur naturally (as it has already begun — consider the integration of [Facebook and Flickr in iPhoto '09](http://www.apple.com/ilife/iphoto/?ref=chrismessina.me#sharing)), or whether they just want to scream and holler when they notice something that seems astray. . . . Last December, I spent time talking to [Boaz Sender](http://www.boazsender.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) of [HTML Times](http://htmltimes.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) at length about several of these topics (including discussing the intellectual property issues surrounding many of the technologies that are helping to ensure that the web remain an open playing field) in an interview about [Identity in the Network](http://htmltimes.com/chris-messina.php?ref=chrismessina.me). In juxtaposition to my interview with the BBC, I think this interview gets into some of the deeper issues at work here that must also be considered when it comes to the future of online identity, privacy and data control and (co)-ownership. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Luca Mearelli](http://spazidigitali.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-18 00:10:30 The cultural differences between Europeans and Americans you are referring to are real, and pose interesting challenges for any global service. It's curious that the european legislation i have seen uses, to define the privacy rules, words which refer to the "property" or "ownership" of the data (which is considered of the user and not of the service that collects it) :) Also I'm seeing (at least here in Italy) a lot of negative comments related to the fact that now a user doesn't have any insurance that his/her content will be deleted from the site if he decides to close his account. **[sash](http://www.sashsavic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-21 09:01:21 just wondering what is the latest news for the DISO project ? no news on twitter or on the site since last year. thanx. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-21 10:53:01 @sash: Great question. Indeed, it appears that DiSo may not be that active, but with the [Activity Streams](http://activitystrea.ms/?ref=chrismessina.me) work and Will's continued work on the OpenID and OAuth plugins for WordPress, there is quite a bit of activity going on, but we've been so busy, we've just not communicated well about it! I'll make an effort to keep the Twitter site more up to date; the mailing list is really where the conversation is, though: http://groups.google.com/group/diso-project **[sash](http://www.sashsavic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-22 10:15:19 ok, thanks for the info. **[sash](http://www.sashsavic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-22 15:45:37 i'm especially interested in BuddyPress integration. I've just made a blog post about it my understanding of this movement http://cli.gs/Yqh6Gv feel free to leave a comment there :) **[Michael](http://www.kulthea.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-23 06:31:26 Hi, discovered your blog from the link on the BBC news site. The worry around what if your OpenID account gets hacked? Seems to be the big concern that people have. Of course as you point out it's no more insecure than e-mail accounts, but it still seems to be the main thing I hear people commenting on. The solution? Well I've recently discovered and been using the rather nifty Yubikey (http://www.yubico.com/home/index/), I've had a quick play around and managed to get it working with my own hosted OpenID provider. I'm hoping it will catch on and more people will start using it. I'm now off to configure the Yubikey PAM module so I can use it to SSH into my server at home! **[John Salter](http://www.yubico.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-23 23:58:15 Hi - please let me know which OpenID provider you use your YubiKey with? John. **[Michael](http://www.kulthea.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-25 02:59:41 John, I'm using phpMyID (http://www.siege.org/projects/phpMyID/) which I've hacked in the Yubikey authentication stuff from this PHP class http://code.google.com/p/yubikey-php-webservice-class/ It's not working properly yet (working if I log in directly first but not if another website calls it), but I'm no PHP coder so it's hard going. ClavID http://clavid.com/ do offer OpenID with full Yubikey support though. ### What really happened at Ma.gnolia and lessons learned URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/what-really-happened-at-magnolia-and-lessons-learned-2/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:20.000Z [http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip\_id=3205188&server=vimeo.com&show\_title=1&show\_byline=1&show\_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1](http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip%5Fid=3205188&server=vimeo.com&show%5Ftitle=1&show%5Fbyline=1&show%5Fportrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1&ref=chrismessina.me) [](http://citizengarden.com/2009/02/15/episode-11-whither-magnolia/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Larry](http://larryhalff.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([@lhalff](http://twitter.com/lhalff?ref=chrismessina.me)) and I have been recording a podcast for the past year called [Citizen Garden](http://citizengarden.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) that covers various topics related to the web, technology, and social networking. Well, given Ma.gnolia's [recent catastrophe](http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/01/magnolia-suffer.html?ref=chrismessina.me), we decided that [episode 11](http://citizengarden.com/2009/02/15/episode-11-whither-magnolia/?ref=chrismessina.me) would dedicated to exactly what went down and why, and what lessons Larry has learned that others should heed in order to avoid facing a similar crisis. I think the basic take-away is that, four years ago, when Larry started Ma.gnolia, your IT options were pretty much to use commodity shared hosting or to do it yourself. If you used Ruby on Rails — in which Ma.gnolia is written — your options were even more limited. And so Larry chose to do it himself. Today, with services like Amazon [S3](http://aws.amazon.com/s3/?ref=chrismessina.me) & [EC2](http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Joyent Accelerators](http://www.joyent.com/accelerator/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Google AppEngine](http://code.google.com/appengine?ref=chrismessina.me), reliable, scalable hosting is no longer as much a problem, as these services have risen to meet the needs of applications like Ma.gnolia. But these are services that Larry did not take complete advantage of and the burden of [taking care of over half a terabyte of data](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/02/06/where-does-data-go-when-it-dies/?ref=chrismessina.me) eventually caught up with him. All is [not lost necessarily](http://getsatisfaction.com/magnolia/topics/bookmark%5Frecovery%5Ftips?ref=chrismessina.me), and Larry hopes that Ma.gnolia will someday return, perhaps as an invite-only service to start, in order to give him time to earn back people's trust and scale the service slowly. I'm also confident that he's decided to completely outsource his IT, taking the lessons from this current situation deeply to heart. This episode is also [downloadable as an MP3](http://citizengarden-podcasts.s3.amazonaws.com/CitizenGardenEpisode11.mp3?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Marko](http://markomihelcic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-16 10:03:49 On just 4 Mac minis amazing! :) **[Carl Morris](http://www.quixoticquisling.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-16 10:18:38 Make sure you employ a pessimist. Wow. I like his honesty. But then I use Delicious. **[Robin Blandford](http://www.bytesurgery.com/blog/index.php?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-16 10:52:43 Hi guys - thanks for the discussion. Can you recommend outsourcing options for start-ups? What should go out, what shouldn't? Cheers, -Robin. **[Sean Murphy](http://iamseanmurphy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-16 11:59:14 I think it'd be interesting to have a site--kind of like http://highscalability.com but focused on the smaller guys--where startups or web app creators could disclose the infrastructure they use to power their sites. There could even be a sort of rating system to help potential users determine the reliability or disaster preparedness of sites before "investing" in them. It might even serve as an incentive for some startups to get their stuff together so that they can "win over" new users. Just an idea. **[Chris Brentano](http://fourone.org/chris/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-16 12:23:22 Great podcast, and I really appreciate Larry's honesty and humility. I agree that it's really amazing and telling that such great services can be built with (relatively) inexpensive off the shelf hardware. Good luck with Ma.gnolia 2.0. **[Andrew Hyde](http://www.andrewhyde.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-16 13:31:35 I just wanted to take a moment to say thank you for doing this. I really miss ma.gnolia and would love for it to come back. Great job putting this together. **[Mohammad Al-Ubaydli](http://idiopathic.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-16 14:57:22 This is a fabulous discussion, I really appreciate your candor and tips. I'm reminded of a case I read about the creator of MultiMaps, a UK start-up similar to Mapquest. He had the server in his bedroom. I'm so glad I have Amazon available to me nowadays. **Don Park** ¡ 2009-02-16 15:44:51 thanks Chris and Larry for this post - very interesting. What the interview seems to say is that the hardware and disks were working fine and this corruption is a problem with MySQL 5\. Can you say more about this? Larry says he made a 'huge mistake' but he also says he doesnt know what went wrong - he's waiting on recovery experts. Using cloud services is a great idea but self-hosting has its advantages. Storage is cheap and having it local will always be faster than on the other end of the Internet. Using four mac-minis as the webservers is awesome since pre-corruption, the site was running fine. Also, whats the 2^8th doing on the wall? **[Colin Consterdine](http://www.colinconsterdine.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-16 16:40:38 Delicious isn't the heavyweight because of Yahoo's involvement, it's there because it has legacy, credibility and stability. Those of us who used it when it was del.icio.us trusted it then and trust it now. I did use ma.gnolia but it never had 'stickability' for me. If nothing else this frank and illuminating interview reveals the 'smoke and mirrors' nature of emerging social technology. **[Neils Brooks](http://repeatnone.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-16 17:48:28 Better late than never. Thanks Larry for granting us insight into the loss of our bookmarks. It's good to hear you take responsibility and provide details. I'm really looking forward to using ma.gnolia again! **[Zach](http://darkstar.frop.org/~zwhite/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-17 07:48:58 Outsourcing is about the worst mistake you can make. Your best bet is to hire a unix geek, one who built a home network incorporating as many enterprise features as they could "for fun." Even a few years ago when magnol.ia started there were VPS's and managed hosting with automated backups. A good unix geek will know about those and be able to find one at a reasonable price. Outsourcing means you pay more everytime you need something different. Having your own unix geek on staff means you have someone who has a vested interest in keeping things going at lower cost, who can identify when your current resources are sufficient to do that new thing you want to do, and most importantly can identify when you can turn things costing you money off. **[Thomas Vander Wal](http://openid.claimid.com/vanderwal/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-17 08:08:33 This is excellent! Thank you for sharing, lessons learned are one of the rare gems that are not shared enough or listened to. There are also great nuggets of information in this are a broad array of subjects. I am missing Ma.gnolia, but I like the idea of an iTunes Genius for bookmarks to aggregate link lists (similar to DevonThink, but in my context) and other new related materials I have not seen. **Jamie** ¡ 2009-02-18 01:47:57 I am with Don Park. Very curious as to what happened since you hinted in the video that it wasn't hardware and it was due to some data corruption. Larry, could you at least let us know if you felt it was due to some MySQL specific issues? **friendship7** ¡ 2009-02-28 12:12:18 the burden of half a terabyte of data. i understand that burden. i have half a terabyte of data in my macbook although soon i'll nearly double that with a second drive to replace my optical drive. i use time machine to back it up onto 1.5 terabyte drives. i am a professional, but if all my data was lost, it'd just be my ass, few people would scream at me. most everything important is somewhere out there. obviously, if i was taking care of other people's data, i'd take pains to ensure it was safe. i don't get it. half a terabyte of data. no backups. my own personal site uses a mysql database over 130mb in size. it is backed up every day. i guess half a terabyte of data is just so much bigger... :p **[???](http://melbourne.at9t.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-16 05:09:08 come back magnolia! **PiddlyD** ¡ 2009-06-05 10:18:38 I think it is inescapable - there was a level of negligence in developers rushing an application to production without any IT engineering expertise involved. IT engineers, the guy recommending the On Staff Unix geek, the guy talking about backing up his 150GB mysql DB daily, can simply see through this. Those of us who do this professionally for enterprise class organizations know, there are no excuses for failure to protect data - there is generally simply job termination. I suppose, in a bizzare sense, Larry terminated himself. This is not "griefing" or being "unduly negative" - it is how IT engineering \*operates\*. There are certain skillsets you need to bring to the table when you're dealing hands-on with production environments. This is why developers should stick to the scratchbox machines and not have production access. I can see a challenge here - and it is complex. Who regulates who, how, and when a developer with a good idea makes it available to the public, and what is that developer's liability? We don't want to stifle innovation, but there needs to be responsibility and accountability as well. Outsourcing sucks, as an IT professional, I can imagine why you don't want to outsource to the server version of a "puppy mill" where a bunch of nameless IT engineers babysit your server with no real involvement in what it is or what it does. But as a startup, you can't afford a guy like me to be on staff, can you? A good place to start, though, is knowing your limitations, and I believe Larry didn't know his until TOO late. He might have wanted to partner up with an IT professional. Ultimately, that is the problem. Ma.gnolia was running in production but was only 75% thought out. This illustrates the basic failure of the cloud, and while fat, local computing will still remain the most viable, frequent model of computing as we move forward. **[Nilma Azeem](http://www.thecurrentaffairs.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-20 06:05:15 Very Informative and Knowledgeable Interview.and good tips for new born companies. i forward this interview for my all friends and my orkut list. Regards Nilma Azeem **sxwv** ¡ 2009-09-08 02:05:33 I just wanted to take a moment to say thank you for doing this. **Kelso K** ¡ 2010-07-27 14:53:07 Thanks for keeping this up.. good video :) ### This week in video: Facebook and the OpenID Design Workshop URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/this-week-in-video-facebook-and-the-openid-design-workshop-2/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:18.000Z [http://www.viddler.com/player/423b8f4b/](http://www.viddler.com/player/423b8f4b/?ref=chrismessina.me) Needless to say, it's been a big week for the open web, with [Facebook joining the OpenID Foundation](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/02/04/welcoming-facebook-to-the-openid-foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me) and hosting an OpenID Design Workshop. Above is the latest episode of [theSocialWeb.tv](http://www.thesocialweb.tv/?ref=chrismessina.me) called ["An Open Discussion with Facebook"](http://www.thesocialweb.tv/blog/2009/02/episode-28-an-open-discussion-with-facebook.html?ref=chrismessina.me), filmed yesterday on location at Plaxo. [John](http://therealmccrea.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Joseph](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and I talk about the week's news with [Dave Morin](http://davemorin.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Luke Shepard](http://sociallipstic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) of Facebook, going into some detail about Facebook's new emphasis on their open strategy. ### OpenID Design Workshop I also recorded a bunch of video from the [OpenID Design Workshop](http://wiki.openid.net/2009-02-10-openid-design-workshop?ref=chrismessina.me) (which John McCrea did a [great job liveblogging](http://therealmccrea.com/2009/02/10/live-blogging-the-openid-design-summit/?ref=chrismessina.me)):[](http://vimeo.com/3183924?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [OpenID Design Workshop Introductions](http://vimeo.com/3183924?ref=chrismessina.me) Luke Shepard and Dave Morin introduce the schedule for the day; individual attendee introductions. [](http://vimeo.com/3184023?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Julie Zhou from Facebook presents on Facebook Connect](http://vimeo.com/3184023?ref=chrismessina.me) Julie presents the design thinking behind Facebook Connect. [Slides](http://www.slideshare.net/joulee/open-id-summit-facebook?ref=chrismessina.me). [](http://vimeo.com/3184399?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Max Engel presents MySpace usability research](http://vimeo.com/3184399?ref=chrismessina.me) Max presents usability findings from research on connecting MySpace to other sites, like AOL. [Slides](http://www.slideshare.net/8bitkid/myspaceid-usability-testing/?ref=chrismessina.me). [](http://vimeo.com/3184458?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Brian Ellin presents RPX and the history of OpenID interfaces](http://vimeo.com/3184458?ref=chrismessina.me) A look at the history of OpenID interfaces, with insights into what people type "into the box". [Slides](http://www.slideshare.net/bce/openid-ux-summit?ref=chrismessina.me). [](http://vimeo.com/3187218?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Eric Sachs and Brian Kromrey present on federated login research/popup](http://vimeo.com/3187218?ref=chrismessina.me) Eric Sachs and Brian Kromrey talk about their work implementing OpenID and present the new popup flow. [Slides](http://www.slideshare.net/ericsachs/fed-login-idp-popup-20090210-draft?ref=chrismessina.me). [](http://vimeo.com/3187221?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Joseph Smarr presents on the hybrid OpenID/OAuth flow](http://vimeo.com/3187221?ref=chrismessina.me) Joseph presents the famous ["92% Demo"](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/comcast%5Fproperty%5Fsees%5F92%5Fsuccess%5Frate%5Fopenid.php?ref=chrismessina.me). [Slides](http://www.slideshare.net/johnmccrea/what-an-rp-wants?type=presentation&ref=chrismessina.me). [](http://vimeo.com/3187684?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Chris Messina presents on OpenID Contexts](http://vimeo.com/3187684?ref=chrismessina.me) I present on using OpenID in different contexts. [Slides](http://www.slideshare.net/factoryjoe/openid-contexts?ref=chrismessina.me). [](http://vimeo.com/3188890?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [OpenID Provider Report Back](http://vimeo.com/3188890?ref=chrismessina.me) The results of the 2-hour OP breakout session. [](http://vimeo.com/3190285?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [OpenID Relying Party Report Back](http://vimeo.com/3190285?ref=chrismessina.me) The results of the 2-hour RP breakout session. ### Jelly Talks And there's now video available from the conversation I had last week with Dave Morin on the [inaugural episode of Jelly Talks](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/28/inaugural-jelly-talk-this-friday-openid-vs-facebook-connect/?ref=chrismessina.me): #### [Part 1: Facebook Connect & OpenID](http://davemorin.com/blog/jelly-talks-facebook-connect-openid-video-now-live/?ref=chrismessina.me) [http://d.yimg.com/cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/fop/embedflv/swf/fop.swf](http://d.yimg.com/cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/fop/embedflv/swf/fop.swf?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Part 2: Facebook Connect & OpenID - A Community Effort](http://davemorin.com/blog/jelly-talks-facebook-connect-openid-community-effort/?ref=chrismessina.me) [http://d.yimg.com/cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/fop/embedflv/swf/fop.swf](http://d.yimg.com/cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/fop/embedflv/swf/fop.swf?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Part 3: Facebook Connect & OpenID - User Experience](http://davemorin.com/blog/jelly-talks-facebook-connect-openid-user-experience/?ref=chrismessina.me) [http://d.yimg.com/cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/fop/embedflv/swf/fop.swf](http://d.yimg.com/cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/fop/embedflv/swf/fop.swf?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Part 4: Facebook Connect & OpenID - Q & A](http://davemorin.com/blog/jelly-talks-facebook-connect-openid-q-a/?ref=chrismessina.me) [http://d.yimg.com/m/up/fop/embedflv/swf/fop.swf](http://d.yimg.com/m/up/fop/embedflv/swf/fop.swf?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Rian](http://openid.rianmurnen.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-13 21:03:25 As great as the information in the presentations are, I have to say that the UX Summit videos would only be half as good without the "Messina Smirk Track"(tm). ;) Seriously, thanks for post all this (esp. with links to the slide decks). ### Where data goes when it dies and other musings URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/where-does-data-go-when-it-dies/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:18.000Z I've been wanting to write about [Ma.gnolia's catastrophic data loss last week](http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/01/magnolia-suffer.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ever since it happened, but wasn't quite sure how I wanted to approach it. [Larry](http://larryhalff.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (Ma.gnolia founder and the sole person who maintained the site) is a good friend of mine, and [Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) was one of [Citizen Agency's](http://citizenagency.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [first clients](http://citizenagency.com/blog/2007/02/16/magnolias-birthday-party-at-citizen-space/?ref=chrismessina.me). It's been painful to see him struggle through this, both personally and professionally, and it's about the worst possible \[preventable\] thing that can happen to a Web 2.0 service. Still, kept in context, it's made me reconsider some things about the nature and value of open, networked data. ### I. How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb According to [Google's cache of my profile](http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:f4sDVg35sFIJ:https://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe+site:ma.gnolia.com+chris+messina%27s+bookmarks+-%22tagged+with%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&ref=chrismessina.me) on Ma.gnolia, I had accrued 5758 bookmarks and 6162 tags since I first started using the service August 08, 2004\. That's a lot of [data capital](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/16/data-capital-or-data-as-common-tender/?ref=chrismessina.me) to have instantly wiped out. You might think that I'd be angry, or disappointed. But I'm surprising zen about the whole thing. Even if I never got any of my bookmarks back, I don't think I'd be that upset, and I'm not sure why. If Flickr went down, I'd be pretty pissed. But Ma.gnolia for me was primarily a tool for publishing — something that I used to broadcast pointers to things that I took a momentary fancy in. There's a lot of history in my bookmarks, no doubt. In some ways, it's a record of all the things that I've read that I thought might be worth someone else reading (hence why my bookmarks are public), and clearly is a list of things that have affected and informed my thinking on a broad array of topics. But, the beauty of bookmarks is that they're secondary references to other things. The payload is elsewhere and distributed. So in some ways, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of good data there that's been lost (at least for the moment). But, the reality is that the legacy of my bookmarks are forever imbued in my brain as changes in how my synapses fire. The things that I can't remember, well, perhaps they weren't that important to begin with. ### II. Start over; the blank slate. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3255335744/?ref=chrismessina.me)With the money I won from the [Google/O'Reilly Open Source award last summer](http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2008/07/and-winners-of-2008-google-oreilly-open.html?ref=chrismessina.me), I decided I'd break down and by myself a new MacBook Pro. As I was initially setting it up, I figured I'd transfer my previous system setup over from my Time Machine backup and just pick up from where I left off. I did this, but once I logged in, the new MacBook lost it's feeling of *newness*, and I felt encumbered. What amounted to bit-for-bit data portability left me feeling claustrophobic and restricted. I wanted the freedom of a clean system back; somehow buying a new machine wasn't just about better performance, but about giving myself *license* to forget and to start over and to *make new mistakes*. I wiped the hard drive and reinstalled OS X with the minimum options. I've installed about ten apps so far, and [I intend to hold off on anything that I don't feel an absolute need to install](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/status/1178727837?ref=chrismessina.me), taking a [hint](http://twitter.com/ethank/status/1178900907?ref=chrismessina.me) from [Ethan Kaplan](http://blackrimglasses.com/?ref=chrismessina.me):[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3254398755/?ref=chrismessina.me) ### III. And the band played on While I love the form-factor of my [MacBook Air](http://www.apple.com/macbookair/?ref=chrismessina.me) (now my previous system), the first generation just isn't fast enough or beefy enough for the way that I use a Mac. It's great for email and traveling and it really *is* the machine that I want to be using — just with better performance (though I hear the new models are much better). Because the hard drive on the thing is pretty miniscule by today's standards (80GB), I quickly maxed it out with music, videos, photos and screenshots. I was down to about 6GB of space, and OS X crawls when it can't cache the shit out of everything so I decided to take aggressive action and deleted my entire 30GB iTunes library. Command-A. Command-Delete. Empty Trash. And then it was done. Now, I still need iTunes for iPhone syncing, but now I have no local music store. With the combination of [Spotify](http://spotify.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [SimplifyMedia](http://simplifymedia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and Pandora (using [PandoraJam](http://www.bitcartel.com/pandorajam/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me) or [PandoraBoy](http://code.google.com/p/pandoraboy/?ref=chrismessina.me)), I've got a good selection of music wherever I've got wifi. The act of deleting my entire music library (okay fine, I do have a complete backup on my Mac Mini media center) was cathartic. All that data... in an instant, *gone*. All those ratings, all that metadata, all those play counts revealing my accumulated listening habits. Gone (well, except for [my Last.fm's profile](http://last.fm/user/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me)). Of course, it's not like I had original, irreplaceable copies of these tracks. There are *copies upon copies* out there. And knowing this, I intentionally destroyed all this data without really worrying about whether I'd ever be able to re-experience or relive my music again. In fact, I didn't even give it a thought. But my system sure *seems* a bit faster now. ### IV. Microformats are the vinyl of the web [](http://flickr.com/photos/bruceberrien/347305214/?ref=chrismessina.me)The first thing that I thought about when I heard that Ma.gnolia had had "catastrophic data loss" was that Google and Yahoo probably had pretty good caches of the site, especially given its historically high PageRank. The second thing that I thought about was that, since the site was [microformatted with XFN, xFolk and other formats](http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:tmf3f8MhM5IJ:wiki.ma.gnolia.com/Ma.gnolia%5FFeeds%5FGuide&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=27&gl=us&ref=chrismessina.me#Microformats), recovering structured data from these caches would likely be most reliable way of externally reconstituting Ma.gnolia, in lieu of other, more conventional data retrieval methods. Though Larry is still engaged in a [full out recovery process](http://getsatisfaction.com/magnolia/topics/ma%5Fgnolia%5Fdata%5Frecovery%5Fstatus?ref=chrismessina.me), it gave me some sense of pride and optimism that we had had the forethought to mark up Ma.gnolia with microformats. Indeed, this kind of archival purpose was something that [Tantek](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) had presaged in 2006: > Microformats from the beginning in my mind are serving two very important purposes.Microformats provide simple ways of identifying larger chunks of information on the Web for easily and immediately publishing, sharing, moving, aggregating, and republishing.Microformats are perhaps a step forward in providing building blocks for the longevity of higher fidelity information as well. In talking with Tantek about this, he pointed out some interesting things about many modern web services, lamenting their apparent lack of concern over longevity. For example, clearly there is a great deal of movement afoot to advance the state of distributed social networking, as evidenced by XML and JSON-based protocols like [Portable Contacts](http://portablecontacts.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Activity Streams](http://activitystrea.ms/?ref=chrismessina.me). But these are primarily transaction-based protocols, and archive poorly (another argument for RESTful architectural, certainly). I would therefore agree with Tantek's oft-repeated admonishment that services that are serious about their data should always start by marking up their sites with microformats and *then* add additional APIs to provide functionality (as TripIt did). It's simply good data hygiene. It's also about the separation between form and function (or data and interactivity). And with emerging technologies like [YQL](http://developer.yahoo.com/yql/?ref=chrismessina.me), people can now [build arbitrary mashups from the HTML](http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2009/01/yql%5Fwith%5Fmicroformats.html?ref=chrismessina.me) on your homepage, without even having to know about your custom API. It also means that, in the event of catastrophe (Ma.gnolia's case) or dissolution of a service (as in the cases of [Pownce](http://micro.ben-ward.co.uk/post/62783443/pownce-4395291?ref=chrismessina.me), [Journalspace](http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180318319977&ref=chrismessina.me) or Consumating), there is some hope for data refugees left out in the cold. When APIs go dark, how do you do a data backup? (Answer: you often can't.) With public, microformatted content, there will likely be a public archive that can be used to [reconstitute at least portions of the service](http://recovery.ma.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). With dynamic APIs and proprietary data formats, all bets are off. ### V. Death and data reincarnation With both the intentional and unintentional destruction of data recently, it's given me lots to ponder about in terms of the value, relevance, importance and longevity of data. I talk about "data capital" like it matters, because I suppose I want it to, and hope that someday it does make a difference just how much of yourself you share with the world, simply because it's better to share than not to. And now I'm in this funny situation where, because I *did* share, and shared *openly* (specifically on Ma.gnolia), there is the very real possibility of reincarnating my data from the ether of the web. It could just be that all the private data, including messages, private bookmarks and thanks are forever gone, because they were kept private. But those things which were made available to anyone and everyone, through that simple aspect, can be reconstituted by extracting their essence from the caches of the internet's memory banks. You think about photographs of people who have died, and of videos and other media. In the past several years we've had to start thinking about what happens to social networking profiles on Facebook, MySpace and Twitter of people who are no longer with us. Over time, societies have invented symbols and rituals to commemorate the dead, and often use items imbued with the deceased's social residue to help them remember and recall and relive. How do that work when those items are locked away in incompatible and proprietary data stores? How do we cope when technology gets between humans and their humanity? The web is a fragile place it turns out, in spite of its redundancy and distributed design. Efforts that threaten to close it up, lock it down or wall it into proprietary gardens are turning the web against us, against history and against civilization and the collective memory. This is perhaps one reason of the primary reasons why the open web is so important to me, and factors in so centrally to my work. As I grow older, perhaps I won't always have perspective on which things will be the most important to me, but it's critical that in the future, I don't inhibit my and my progeny's ability to access my digital legacy. ![Ma.gnolia logo](http://img.skitch.com/20090206-8m9mddwesqiuddkrr2b7wq77a6.png) I find it fitting that Ma.gnolia uses an organic symbol as its logo. It has, for all intents and purposes, died. But there is a silver lining here, and I think Larry intuitively understands: in the [Ma.gnolia Open Source](http://ma.gnolia.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) (M2) project, he had already sowed the seeds for Ma.gnolia's rebirth. Though it is lamentable that a such disaster would occur, I believe that creative destruction is absolutely necessary to natural systems, as forest fires are critical to the lifecycle of forests. I also believe that things happen for a reason and that the soil of this tragedy will lead to a new start and new growth. It's not accidental that the design of M2 called for a distributed, redundant mesh of independent bookmarking service endpoints. If anything, this situation provides Larry license to start anew, proving the necessity of death, and the wisdom of genetic inheritance and variation. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Chris Flew](http://www.chrisflew.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-06 16:45:09 Excellent and insightful writing, thank you. **[David](https://madrox.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-06 17:49:32 I think V is some of the most sage writing on data portability out there. I wonder how people would feel about losing their twitter history? Is it more about publishing or archiving? The writings of entire eras are lost because the technology of the time was papyrus, which gets wrecked by moisture within a century. We know more firsthand about some civilizations over others simply because they used stone tablets over clay. If ma.gnolia's data vanishes, future generations lose out on the opportunity to understand an entire culture of early social bookmarkers. Maybe that doesn't seem like a big deal to us, but perhaps the ancient greeks didn't feel much different when their papyrus scrolls got wet and turned into pulp. Unfortunately, we'll never know how they felt for certain. Very little is left. You mentioned the affects of losing data in the specific case, but what about in aggregate? Ma.gnolia didn't lose just your data, but everyone's data. This is what's important to me when I hear you talk about the open web, anyway. On a long enough timeline, the politics behind privatizing data become obsolete. Our data is our legacy as a civilization, and it should be preserved for the lessons it can teach. However, humans are shown to be horrible conservators. **[Ian McKellar](http://ian.mckellar.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-06 18:21:07 If you were running Flock you'd still have all of your Magnolia bookmarks :) Ian **[Joe Lewis](http://www.sanbeiji.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-06 20:59:09 Excellent post. And Ian - good point on Flock. Clients that can automatically consume and store your hard-fought data out there in the ethers is a potentially good model for data continuity. Things like microformats and RDFa look like great candidates for standardizing how that data looks to such a client. **[Nick Nichols](http://nich3.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-06 22:55:29 Ok, this may be over the top but I believe Chris may have written here the "Groundhog Day" of blog posts in that it addresses timeless truths about life and living and people will be mining this for a long time to come for deep religious overtones and cosmic karma. I have so much to say about this, I can't get it out in words at the moment. Let me just try to get some disorganized words out before I forget certain trains of though. Part of the lesson is to share and to share now. We are what we share with other people. That is our true legacy - how we impact our fellow humans now and enable them to act now, inspired by us. And this: I am not longer contained at a particular blog. I am spread out all over the internet in blog comments left all over the place, in Twitter tweets, last.fm, in Friendfeed posts and comments, in Flickr ... I can go on and on. I am the aggregate of all that and i can't point to one place that best defines me. And then there is the Zen concept of Now, the Present. Not past, not future. It is what we do now that is real. i'll have to come back to this comment and organize it and relate it all back to pieces Chris has written. **Todd** ¡ 2009-02-07 01:46:43 "...For example, clearly there is a great deal of movement afoot to advance the state of distributed social networking, as evidenced by XML and JSON-based protocols like Portable Contacts and Activity Streams. But these are primarily transaction-based protocols, and archive poorly." Each Twitter status has its own URL, and they are being cached by Google Yahoo with the microformat markup intact. Does that count as a Tantek approved persistence for an activity stream? Also, "...It’s simply good data hygiene." Ummm...Ew. **[Ari Herzog](http://ariwriter.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-07 15:17:20 Neat idea about reinstalling your hard drive. While I'm unsure if I want to follow your steps, you'll be pleased to learn I've sporadically deleted apps running on my PC when I realize I hardly use them. Might as well save the same for PDFs and other stuff I download. **[wayne sutton](http://socialwayne.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-07 18:11:28 Good write up. I too lost a lot of bookmarks. I'm now using Diigo and looking forward to the rebirth of Ma.gnolia **[ako](http://www.andrejkoelewijn.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-07 18:28:28 A lot of the writing on the web is more like talking than writing. When you talk, there won't be an archive where it's stored. And you don't care. Same should hold for a lot of the stuff we write on the web. It's short lived communication, not important enough to be archived. Twitter is like talking. Backup shouldn't be that important. Image everything anybody ever said was archived somewhere... Where do your words go after you've said them? **Tom Gardner** ¡ 2009-02-07 23:53:05 Microformats are all well and good when it comes to re-constructing data, but wouldn't it have been a thousand times easier just to advise Magnolia to have an offsite backup in place? Features like structuring your data with Microformats, and paying consultants to talk to you about them, are useless if you don't get the basics - like backup - right. I am sure that if you ask Magnolia now if they would have rather spent the time, money and resources they did on Microformat support instead on backups, they would now choose the later. Too many developers and consultants spending too much time on the insignificant as core development principals are forgotten. **[Kai](http://www.kai-mai.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-08 11:08:48 If I have private data with a saas site, and I don't have backups, microformat isn't going to save me if the saas site goes down. **[James O'Keefe](http://profile.typepad.com/jokeefe?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-10 11:42:25 Wow. Thanks for sharing your insights. **Bengt** ¡ 2009-02-12 14:15:45 Theres really no excuse to not keeping good backups of OTHER peoples data. Atleast if you expect to be taken seriously. I never used magnolia, but I dont have any plans to start now... **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-13 10:06:17 First, thanks all for your comments! Specific replies: @Todd: yeah, giving everything permalinks is pretty critical. @ako: well, it's not exactly that straight forward. While I agree that we'll see a shift to more real-time interactions on the web, having a record of interactions and exchanges can prove valuable, in a way that we may not currently be able to imagine. While I don't mourn the \[present\] loss of my bookmarks, I still think that it would have been nice to have a collection of them, especially given the metadata that I personally added to them (tags, descriptions, ratings, etc). The same holds true for Twitter -- I oftentimes cite Twitter as a source of news. If Twitter didn't have permalinks per post, that would be like newspapers not keeping back issues of prior papers. Losing that history, to me, would be a crime! @Tom Gardner: your point is orthogonal to mine. It goes without saying that having a robust, triple-redundant backup system is something that services \*should\* have. Ma.gnolia didn't; that can't be undone. You don't realize the value of good backups until you need them, and that's because, as they say, hindsight is 20/20\. Now, not all services will have a good backup system. Even [Nokia got this wrong](http://betalabs.nokia.com/blog/2009/02/12/contacts-on-ovi-beta-database-failed-my-deepest-and-most-sincere-apologies/?ref=chrismessina.me) recently. You can chide all you want, but if a service goes down, sometimes backups will fail. Sometimes companies will go under. Sometimes sites will be removed from the net by overzealous governments. In those cases, having distributed caches across the web are your only recourse to retrieve public data. Microformats at least help to improve those situations, but certainly don't replace a regular backup and archive routine. @Kai: yep, that's true. I was only discussing **public** data. @Bengt: I don't think Larry made any excuses. He screwed up, admits his mistake, and has taken steps to address the problem. He can't go back in time, but if and when Ma.gnolia lives again, I'm sure he'll trust someone else more versed in IT to manage his infrastructure. It's not about making excuses; it's about taking responsibility for this situation and accepting that sometimes shit really does happen, but at least if you take a simple step like using microformats (among other things), if and when it does, you have a distributed way of recovering the data. **[Ma.gnolia Is Back | Not So Relevant](http://notsorelevant.com/2009-09-26/ma-gnolia-is-back/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-10-04 03:42:03 \[...\] anymore and their bookmarks were unavailable. But due to those standards users could find them elsewhere on the internet and restore at least a great part of them. That’s not replacing a backup strategy, of course. \[...\] **[almost effortless » Weekly Digest, 2-15-09](http://almosteffortless.com/2009/02/15/weekly-digest-2-15-09/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-03-30 07:54:08 \[...\] Where data goes when it dies and other musings The web is a fragile place it turns out, in spite of its redundancy and distributed design. \[...\] **[Facebook’s Disconnect: Open Doors, Closed Exits](http://techcrunch.com/2010/05/07/facebook%E2%80%99s-disconnect-open-doors-closed-exits/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-05-07 05:49:49 \[...\] for suspending or canceling accounts for abuse or victims of identity theft (far more likely than catastrophic data loss). As far as being an option for “exit,” however, the primary recovery mechanism one can \[...\] **[marcus ramberg](http://marcus.nordaaker.com/2009/02/the-death-of-web-20-innocence/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-06-10 08:14:42 **The death of web 2.0 innocence?...**Our friend Chris Messina was closer to the death of ma.gnolia than most of us, having worked for them as a consultant, as well as having a close relationship with the site owner. He writes with great insight about how this has affected him personally,.... ### Welcoming Facebook to the OpenID Foundation URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/welcoming-facebook-to-the-openid-foundation/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:17.000Z ![Facebook logo](http://img.skitch.com/20090204-8a9ekm3bcdr2ydxsrnriqmu7i2.png) The day after [Facebook's 5th birthday](http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=51892367130&ref=chrismessina.me), I join [David Recordon](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/344657.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and the rest of the board of the [OpenID Foundation](http://openid.net/foundation?ref=chrismessina.me) in [welcoming](http://openid.net/2009/02/05/facebook-joins-openid-foundation-board/?ref=chrismessina.me) Facebook as [our newest member](http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=192&ref=chrismessina.me), in rapid succession to [Paypal just a few weeks ago](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/28/what-paypals-member-in-the-openid-foundation-could-mean/?ref=chrismessina.me). The significance of both of these companies investing in and becoming part of the OpenID family can not be understated. I'm particularly excited that Facebook has joined after the [conversation](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/28/inaugural-jelly-talk-this-friday-openid-vs-facebook-connect/?ref=chrismessina.me) that [Dave Morin](http://davemorin.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and I had last Friday during our [Jelly Talk](http://wiki.workatjelly.com/Jelly+Talks?ref=chrismessina.me). Dave and I were in vehement agreement about a lot of things, and tantamount was the need for the user experience of OpenID authentication to improve. The crux of the issue is that with OpenID, choice is baked in, which is a good thing for the marketplace and ultimately a good thing for users. The problem is how this choice manifests itself in interfaces. Facebook Connect is simple because there is no choice: you click a button. Of course, that button only works for the growing subset of the web who have Facebook accounts and want to share their Facebook identity with the web site displaying the button, but that's why their experience trumps that of OpenID's. If you take away user choice, everything becomes simple. But I believe that we can do better than that, and that we can arrive at a satisfying user experience for OpenID that doesn't necessarily have to dispense with choice. And from the sound of our conversation on Friday, and with Facebook's membership in the OpenID Foundation, I believe that we now have a mandate to confront this challenge head-on, as a top priority. To that end, Facebook will be hosting the second User Experience Summit for OpenID on February 10th. The goal is to convene some of the best designers that leading internet companies can muster, and bring them together to develop a series of guidelines, best practices, iterations, and interfaces for making OpenID not just suck less, but become a [*great*](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/1091230074?ref=chrismessina.me) experience (in same vein as the [hybrid OpenID/OAuth flow](http://googledataapis.blogspot.com/2009/01/bringing-openid-and-oauth-together.html?ref=chrismessina.me) that we saw from Plaxo and Google last week, and in line with Luke Shepard's [proposals for an OpenID popup](http://www.sociallipstick.com/2009/02/04/how-to-accept-openid-in-a-popup-without-leaving-the-page/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Although Facebook has not announced any plans for implementing OpenID specificly, their commitment to help improve the user experience suggests to me that it's only a matter of time before all of the major social networks, in some way, support OpenID. If there were any lingering doubts about the competition between Facebook Connect and OpenID, hopefully the outcome of a successful collaboration will put them to rest. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Michal Migurski** ¡ 2009-02-05 17:03:36 Choice is most certainly not "baked in" - I continue to stand behind everything I wrote two years ago: http://mike.teczno.com/notes/openid-again.html There's just no incentive for any site that supports Facebook to accept any ID that they themselves don't provide, and the user benefit isn't compelling (or even comprehensible) enough to overcome that. Without that incentive, OpenID has nothing. ### Inaugural Jelly! Talk this Friday: OpenID vs Facebook Connect URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/inaugural-jelly-talk-this-friday-openid-vs-facebook-connect/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:16.000Z [](http://wiki.workatjelly.com/Jelly+Talks?ref=chrismessina.me)[This Friday](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/1504001/?ref=chrismessina.me), I'll be joined by [Dave Morin](http://davemorin.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (my good friend from Facebook) at the first ever [Jelly! Talk](http://wiki.workatjelly.com/Jelly+Talks?ref=chrismessina.me) at Joe and Brian's loft [in San Francisco](http://wiki.workatjelly.com/JellyInSanFrancisco?ref=chrismessina.me). If you're not familiar with [Jelly](http://www.workatjelly.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), you should be. I call it the "gateway drug to coworking" — but it really has its own culture and identity independent of [coworking](http://blog.coworking.info/?ref=chrismessina.me), though both movements are rather complementary. [Amit Gupta](http://www.amitgupta.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [got Jelly started](http://www.amitgupta.com/house2.0/2006/03/jelly/?ref=chrismessina.me) at [House 2.0](http://www.amitgupta.com/house2.0/?ref=chrismessina.me) in New York City back in 2006 (about two months after I [initially expressed my desire to create a coworking space in San Francisco](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/17/wanting-a-permanent-coworking-space/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Since then, like coworking, it's grown into a self-sustaining movement. Jelly! Talks is an interesting expansion on the concept — where [Jellies distributed throughout the world](http://wiki.workatjelly.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) can [tune in](http://buzzmarketing.yahoo.com/jelly/?ref=chrismessina.me) to hear interesting and relevant talks and interact with speakers, similar to what the 37 Signals guys do with their ["Live" show](http://live.37signals.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). This first show I'll be talking with Dave Morin about the relationship between [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Facebook Connect](http://developer.facebook.com/connect.php?ref=chrismessina.me) — and where the two technologies are headed. This should be a pretty interesting conversation, since I've long tried to convince the folks at Facebook to adopt OpenID and other elements of the Open Stack (hey, [they've got hcard](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2091840437/?ref=chrismessina.me) already!). Apparently the event is physically booked up, but you'll still be to [tune in remotely](http://buzzmarketing.yahoo.com/jelly/?ref=chrismessina.me) this Friday at 11am PST.(Tip: The next *Jelly! Talk* will feature Guy Kawasaki). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Allen Tom](http://allentom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-28 23:19:33 I gotta see this **[Raj Anand](http://rajanand.biz/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-06 07:09:24 Would love to know how the talk went. I feel Facebook Connect has taken the lead as an identity provider. I have blogged about it in regards to social networks, would love to hear your thoughts: http://blog.kwiqq.com/2009/04/06/social-networks-move-from-openid-to-facebook-connect/ ### What PayPal's membership in the OpenID Foundation could mean URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/what-paypals-membership-in-the-openid-foundation-could-mean-2/ Last updated: 2026-03-22T04:57:14.000Z [![PayPal logo](http://img.skitch.com/20090128-kyuyhpxm59d6eesaffyyibak8.png)](http://openid.net/2009/01/28/paypal-joins-openid-foundation-board-as-we-enter-2009/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Brian Kissel](http://www.linkedin.com/in/briankkissel?ref=chrismessina.me) announced this morning that [PayPal has joined the board of the OpenID Foundation](http://openid.net/2009/01/28/paypal-joins-openid-foundation-board-as-we-enter-2009/?ref=chrismessina.me) as our sixth corporate member, with [Andrew Nash, Sr.](http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/561/57a?ref=chrismessina.me), Director of Information Risk Management and a longstanding advocate for OpenID, as their representative.That PayPal has joined is [certainly good news](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/344136.html?ref=chrismessina.me), and helps to [diversify the types of companies](http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/01/paypal-joins-th.html?ref=chrismessina.me) sitting on the [OpenID Foundation board](http://openid.net/foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me) (PayPal joins Google, IBM, Microsoft, VeriSign and Yahoo!). It also provides a useful opportunity to think about how OpenID could be useful (if not essential) for financial transactions on the web.For one thing, PayPal already relies on email addresses for identification, and one of the things that I'm [strongly advocating](http://chrismessina.me/s/blog/2008/10/28/openid-usability-is-not-an-oxymoron/img?ref=chrismessina.me) for in [OpenID 2.1](http://wiki.openid.net/OpenID%5FAuthentication%5F2%5F1?ref=chrismessina.me) is the use of [email-style](http://eaut.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) identifiers [in OpenID flows](http://chrismessina.me/s/blog/2008/06/22/announcing-emailtoid-mapping-email-addresses-to-openids/img?ref=chrismessina.me).Given that PayPal already assumes that you are your email address, things become more interesting when a company like PayPal starts to assume that you are your OpenID (regardless of the format). With discovery, your OpenID could be useful not just as an indicator of your data resources across the web (essential in cloud computing), but could also be useful for pointing to your financial resources. Compare these two XRDS-Simple entries (the latter is fictional):\[sourcecode language='xml'\]http://portablecontacts.net/spec/1.0http://pulse.plaxo.com/pulse/pdata/contactshttp://portablepayments.net/spec/1.0http://paypal.com/payment/\[/sourcecode\]From this simple addition to your discovery profile, third parties would be able to *request* authorization to payment, without necessarily having to ask you every time who your provider is. And of course no payment would be disbursed without your explicit authorization, **but the point is — sellers would be able to offer a much more seamless payment experience by supporting OpenID and discovery**.The pieces are more or less in place here, and with PayPal on board, I think that we're starting to see how OpenID can be used to smooth the on-boarding process for any number of routine tasks — from specifying where you store your photos to pointing to the service(s) that you use for payment.I commonly use the metaphor of credit cards for OpenID. One thing that makes credit cards convenient is that the 16-digit unique ID on each card is embedded in the magnetic strip, meaning that it's trivial for consumers to just swipe their cards rather than typing in their account number. OpenID and discovery, combined, provides a similar kind of experience for the web. I think we need to keep this in mind as we move the state of the art forward, and think about what can be accomplished once people not only have durable identity on the web — but can use those identifiers to access other forms of real-world value (and can secure them however they see fit). ### What PayPal's member in the OpenID Foundation could mean URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/what-paypals-member-in-the-openid-foundation-could-mean/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:15.000Z [](http://openid.net/2009/01/28/paypal-joins-openid-foundation-board-as-we-enter-2009/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Brian Kissel](http://www.linkedin.com/in/briankkissel?ref=chrismessina.me) announced this morning that [PayPal has joined the board of the OpenID Foundation](http://openid.net/2009/01/28/paypal-joins-openid-foundation-board-as-we-enter-2009/?ref=chrismessina.me) as our sixth corporate member, with [Andrew Nash, Sr.](http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/561/57a?ref=chrismessina.me), Director of Information Risk Management and a longstanding advocate for OpenID, as their representative. That PayPal has joined is [certainly good news](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/344136.html?ref=chrismessina.me), and helps to [diversify the types of companies](http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/01/paypal-joins-th.html?ref=chrismessina.me) sitting on the [OpenID Foundation board](http://openid.net/foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me) (PayPal joins Google, IBM, Microsoft, VeriSign and Yahoo!). It also provides a useful opportunity to think about how OpenID could be useful (if not essential) for financial transactions on the web. For one thing, PayPal already relies on email addresses for identification, and one of the things that I'm [strongly advocating](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/10/28/openid-usability-is-not-an-oxymoron/?ref=chrismessina.me) for in [OpenID 2.1](http://wiki.openid.net/OpenID%5FAuthentication%5F2%5F1?ref=chrismessina.me) is the use of [email-style](http://eaut.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) identifiers [in OpenID flows](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/06/22/announcing-emailtoid-mapping-email-addresses-to-openids/?ref=chrismessina.me). Given that PayPal already assumes that you are your email address, things become more interesting when a company like PayPal starts to assume that you are your OpenID (regardless of the format). With discovery, your OpenID could be useful not just as an indicator of your data resources across the web (essential in cloud computing), but could also be useful for pointing to your financial resources. Compare these two XRDS-Simple entries (the latter is fictional): \[sourcecode language='xml'\] http://portablecontacts.net/spec/1.0 http://pulse.plaxo.com/pulse/pdata/contacts http://portablepayments.net/spec/1.0 http://paypal.com/payment/ \[/sourcecode\] From this simple addition to your discovery profile, third parties would be able to *request* authorization to payment, without necessarily having to ask you every time who your provider is. And of course no payment would be disbursed without your explicit authorization, **but the point is — sellers would be able to offer a much more seamless payment experience by supporting OpenID and discovery**. The pieces are more or less in place here, and with PayPal on board, I think that we're starting to see how OpenID can be used to smooth the on-boarding process for any number of routine tasks — from specifying where you store your photos to pointing to the service(s) that you use for payment. I commonly use the metaphor of credit cards for OpenID. One thing that makes credit cards convenient is that the 16-digit unique ID on each card is embedded in the magnetic strip, meaning that it's trivial for consumers to just swipe their cards rather than typing in their account number. OpenID and discovery, combined, provides a similar kind of experience for the web. I think we need to keep this in mind as we move the state of the art forward, and think about what can be accomplished once people not only have durable identity on the web — but can use those identifiers to access other forms of real-world value (and can secure them however they see fit). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Chris Thomson](http://chris24.ca/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-28 12:28:01 If PayPal was to support something similar to the XRDS example you provided above, and some online stores were to support OpenID, that'd be killer. It'd be great if you could simply go to Amazon, enter in your email address (or OpenID), approve the request, and have it already know your shipping information and your PayPal account. That would certainly make it easier to become a first-time customer at an online merchant like Amazon. **[Allen Tom](http://allentom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-28 23:22:41 Not sure if having your payment instruments being automatically discoverable is a good thing. Broadcasting to the world that your OpenID has a credit card behind it is asking to have your account targeted for cracking. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-28 23:28:18 Not a bad point, Allen, but couldn't you say the same about email-based PayPal accounts? I mean, I suppose email addresses have, by their design, less "surface area"... but just because a payment gateway is specified doesn't mean that there's any, or much, money behind it. As well, I'd think that there'd be both legal and anti-fraud contingencies that would apply here. ### TheSocialWeb.tv #25: "An 'Open' Letter to the Obama Administration" URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/thesocialwebtv-25-an-open-letter-to-the-obama-administration/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:14.000Z [http://www.viddler.com/player/95214990/](http://www.viddler.com/player/95214990/?ref=chrismessina.me) Last Friday, [Joseph](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [John](http://therealmccrea.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and I recorded [episode #25](http://www.thesocialweb.tv/blog/2009/01/episode-25-an-open-letter-to-the-obama-administration.html?ref=chrismessina.me) of [TheSocialWeb.tv](http://www.thesocialweb.tv/?ref=chrismessina.me). Besides shout outs to [97bottles.com](http://97bottles.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and Janrain for [their stats on third-party account login usage](http://blog.janrain.com/2009/01/why-websites-should-accept-multiple.html?ref=chrismessina.me), we discussed how the Obama administration might better make use of or leverage elements of the Open Stack — specifically OpenID. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Snowflake Seven](http://snowflake.seven.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-29 11:59:32 Sunlight Foundation took note of ["Microsoft's Gov. 2.0 advice"](http://blog.sunlightfoundation.com/2009/01/26/microsoft%E2%80%99s-gov-20-advice/?ref=chrismessina.me). Sounds like the giant proprietary beast may try defend its current grip on gov computing in the identity management space. ### Twitter can has OAuth? URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/twitter-can-has-oauth/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:13.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3221444472/?ref=chrismessina.me)Twitter API lead [Alex Payne](http://al3x.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) announced today that Twitter is [now accepting applications to its OAuth private beta](http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-api-announce/browse%5Fthread/thread/42486bd3d7d136d0?ref=chrismessina.me), making good on the promises he made on the Twitter API mailing list and had repeated on the [January 8 Citizen Garden podcast](http://citizengarden.com/2009/01/08/episode-10-phish-my-phail-whale/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([transcript](http://ratafia.info/post/69521533/transcription-of-phish-my-phail-whale?ref=chrismessina.me) by [stilist](http://ratafia.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)). It's worth pointing out that this has been a long time coming and is welcome news, especially following Alex's announcement to [limit Twitter API requests to 20000/hr per IP](http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/browse%5Fthread/thread/bf65a7160a8a44c9?ref=chrismessina.me). But it's important to keep in mind that, in light of the [recent security breaches](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/twitter%5Fsecurity%5Fcollapses%5Foba.php?ref=chrismessina.me), OAuth in and of itself [does not](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/02/twitter-and-the-password-anti-pattern/?ref=chrismessina.me), and will not, [prevent phishing](http://blog.joncrosby.me/post/68470033?ref=chrismessina.me). It does, however, provide a way for Twitter to better track the use of its API, and to enable higher quality of service for trusted (paying?) applications and to surface them [through a Facebook-like application directory](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/why%5Ftwitters%5Fnew%5Foauth%5Fmatters.php?ref=chrismessina.me). It also means that Twitter users will have finer grained control over which applications have ongoing access to their accounts — and will be able to disable applications without changing their password. I'm on the beta list, so I'm looking forward to seeing what their current UI looks like — and what lessons we can extract for other services going from zero OAuth to a completeld delegated authentication model. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Lachlan Hardy](http://lachstock.com.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-23 16:15:37 It's worth point that applications for the private beta are already closed - in under two hours - due to the immense response from the API developer community. Very promising! **[Dean](http://hahlo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-23 16:26:32 Yeah, it is promising that they appear to have had such a large response, I just hope I don't miss out. I didn't find out until it was already "closed" because on this side of the world I was enjoying my Saturday morning sleep in. Hopefully if I've missed out on the private beta, the public one won't be far behind, because I'd really love to be able to add OAuth to Hahlo 4 **[Tom](http://mbilf.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-23 16:27:14 Yes, I didn't sign up for it because I didn't think I'd have a use for it. I really contemplated before signing up, because I knew slots would be limited. I feel for the new developers, or those who are working on small projects, forced out by people who only want to fart around with it and not actually utilize the service. I'm hoping BrightKite made it in, but since I didn't see them tweeting to that effect, I'm guessing not. Sad! **[Alex Payne](http://al3x.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-23 18:05:57 BrightKite and anyone else who runs an existing, widely-used Twitter app or site can email us at any time to get into the beta. The value of getting these apps switched over to OAuth is high, and we're not gonna be sticklers about it :) **[Tom](http://mbilf.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-24 06:38:27 Alex (won't read this): A friend of mine, @soldoutactivist, can't get in now because he's a small developer and didn't find out within the first 2 hours. People who don't develop, like @factoryjoe, got in. That's interesting! **[Martin May](http://brightkite.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-24 12:16:09 Alex, I've emailed you. We'd love to get this in asap. Best, Martin brightkite.com **Tyler** ¡ 2009-01-24 13:54:30 It's about freaking time!!! **[Christian Scholz](http://mrtopf.de/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-25 07:15:40 That's indeed great news and the huge respond as well. I also wanted to note that of course OAuth does not directly prevent phishing it stop the bad educating of people that giving out your password to other services is an OK thing to do. Of course it is not and might make it easier for phishers. Unfortunately though too much of this bad idea is already in people's heads and it might be hard to get it out there again but nevertheless having OAuth now is better than nothing. Which I now would wish for is that Twitter would remove that password antipattern page from the Find people tab and replace it with calls to some contacts API using OAuth or at least a similar mechanism. This of course also goes for other sites (among which also was Plaxo at least when I last checked which very much surprised me). ### Farewell W, aloha Obama! (or, Announcing PublicSentiment.net!) URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/farewell-w-aloha-obama-or-announcing-publicsentimentnet/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:13.000Z [](http://publicsentiment.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)On the eve of President Obama's inauguration, I'm happy to announce a new side project that [Brynn](http://brynnevans.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Michael](http://gobyairship.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), and I have been working on for the past three weeks called [Public Sentiment](http://publicsentiment.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). At its base, it's simply a site for polling opinions, designed to capture [what people are thinking about a certain topic at a given time](http://brynnevans.com/blog/2009/01/19/farewell-w-aloha-obama/?ref=chrismessina.me). The concept actually arose out of an informal study that Brynn and I did last November immediately after the election. At the time, the media portrayed a rather unidimensional view of public opinion — very black and white with little nuance (or should I say, *red* and *blue*?). We decided to take matters into our own hands and commissioned a study on Mechanical Turk to get long-form responses about what people thought about the outcome of the election — making sure to document who, if anyone, they voted for. The results were illuminating and much more textured than one might expect. So we decided that we'd take a similar approach as President Bush left office and President-elect Obama was sworn in. While we were in Hawaii over the holidays, we actually started working on the project and came up with the *Aloha Obama* and *Farewell W* names and figured that it would be interesting to build a site around this content... to really get a sense for what people think — *right now* — and to provide a public record of those sentiments (hence "Public Sentiment"). There are two ways to contribute content: in short form, via Twitter or using our site's Twitter-like posting feature, or our "extended letter" format (since not everyone can say everything that they care to in 140 characters or less). You can create either an [aloha](http://www.publicsentiment.net/new/short/aloha/?ref=chrismessina.me), a [farewell](http://www.publicsentiment.net/new/short/farewell/?ref=chrismessina.me) or both. To post by Twitter, simply post a message to @[barackobama](http://twitter.com/barackobama?ref=chrismessina.me) and use the hashtag **#aloha** (or use "aloha" in the text of your message) or send a message to [@georgewbush](http://twitter.com/georgewbush?ref=chrismessina.me) and use the hashtag **#farewell** (or just include the word "farewell" in your Tweet). Here are two [live](http://www.publicsentiment.net/note/7/?ref=chrismessina.me) [examples](http://www.publicsentiment.net/note/138/?ref=chrismessina.me) (the first from Twitter, the latter, Mechanical Turk): [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3209450966/?ref=chrismessina.me)[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3209441528/?ref=chrismessina.me)It's also worth pointing out that we basically paid about three dollars to populate the first hundred posts from Mechanical Turk users — basically to prime the pump and make sure that we had some good data to start with. Since people were paid $0.02 to complete this particular survey, we figured that it would model the behavior we were looking for from folks on the open web, thereby decreasing any incidence of incendiary behavior. I mean, I'm sure there are lots of emotions that people are feeling out there, but the hope was to catch some of the more subtle feelings — not just the vitriolic. So there you have it! We'd love [feedback, thoughts or ideas](http://www.publicsentiment.net/feedback?ref=chrismessina.me). This will also be just our first survey of the sort. I imagine as Obama starts to execute on his promises, we'll do follow up surveys to see what people have to actually say about the things going on in the news. As an aside, it was also my first Django project, and I have to acknowledge that I was spoiled by all the help that Michael Richardson provided here (mostly late night sessions of me asking questions and then patching my bugs). I actually [designed the whole site in Keynote](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/1119639733?ref=chrismessina.me) first and then built a prototype locally in PHP. Michael then recreated it in Python and Django and had me work on the theme layer. Turned out to be a lot of fun — and a good learning experience! Lastly, props to [David Lanham](http://dlanham.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) for letting use his awesome icons. You'll see them throughout the site. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[5047](http://www.5047.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-19 09:06:07 what a very good idea for all the americans to publish their opinion ! **Todd** ¡ 2009-01-20 01:19:41 "Farewell"? How polite. I say "good riddance!!!" ### Perception and reality in the land of OpenID URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/perception-and-reality-in-the-land-of-openid/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:12.000Z ![OpenID Logo](http://img.skitch.com/20090104-rexifruedc5r7339mj7i7gyr6r.png) A couple related posts caught my attention recently about OpenID. As I'm [now a board member](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/27/the-results-of-the-openid-board-election-are-in/?ref=chrismessina.me) of the [OpenID Foundation](http://openid.net/foundation?ref=chrismessina.me), I feel some responsibility for helping to inform folks about OpenID: what it is, how it's used, why I believe that it has so much potential — and at same time, address what it *isn't*, won't or can't be, and what the scope of the OpenID solution stack is. The first is a post by Nick O'Neill from the [Social Times](http://www.socialtimes.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) blog: "[OpenID Organizes the Organizers While Facebook and Google Start Letting Users Login](http://www.socialtimes.com/2008/12/openid-organizes-the-organizers-while-facebook-and-google-start-letting-users-login/?ref=chrismessina.me)". It was posted on December 29th. He begins his criticism with a slight error: > Over the weekend the OpenID Foundation announced that they are having its first election of community board members. In fact, over that particular weekend, the OIDF announced [the *results* of its election](http://openid.net/2008/12/27/openid-board-election-results/?ref=chrismessina.me), not the kick off. But his broader sentiment deserves a response: > \[...while\] Facebook and Google have launched their own identity services that enable users to instantly log in to any site with third-party accounts\[, ... the\] group seems to still be in the process of organizing though. ... I think the group is over planning and under executing. Josh Catone from SitePoint picked up his point, suggesting that "[OpenID Needs to Start Getting Real](http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/12/30/openid-needs-to-start-getting-real/?ref=chrismessina.me)". He writes: > What the OpenID Foundation needs to do is start “[getting real](http://gettingreal.37signals.com/?ref=chrismessina.me).” Getting real is a business philosophy from 37signals, a successful web application software company based in Chicago. Though there’s a lot more to their idea, one of the main themes essentially boils down to this: stop screwing around with all the stuff that doesn’t matter and just wastes time (like politics and meetings), and start doing the stuff that needs to get done (like building your app). Don’t worry about the details until people are already using what you’re selling. I agree with O’Neill that so far the OpenID Foundation seems to be spending too much time on organizational stuff, and not enough time on actually doing what needs to get done. In a chapter of their book “Getting Real,” 37signals talks about how meetings can kill productivity. “Every minute you avoid spending in a meeting is a minute you can get real work done instead,” they write. From my admittedly outsider’s vantage point, it appears that the people behind OpenID are getting too caught up in the organizational stuff, getting too lost in the details, and not spending enough time on execution. My perspective, of course, *is* that of an outsider. I’m not privy to what’s going on behind closed doors, so to speak. So my perception of what’s really going on could be off. But at this point in the game, public perception is what it’s all about. And therein lies the heart of the problem. **Perception *is* reality in the land of OpenID and will shape the thinking of developers, users and those who make up the OpenID and user-centered identity communities unless we initiate a campaign to earnestly counter those perceptions.** Nevermind that for OpenID to succeed, it must be developed with the involvement of many different groups, each with slightly different ideas, objectives and release cycles. Unlike Facebook Connect, OpenID is essentially *consensus technology*. To advance, it must secure and maintain the buy-in *and* adoption of many parties on every forward step. But let's ignore that for a moment, because that's an issue for us to overcome. [Jim Louderback](http://louderback.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (veteran of PC Mag) recounted his miserable experience trying to sign in to Disqus with his OpenID in a post titled "[I can haz OpenID?](http://louderback.com/2009/i-can-haz-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)". Apparently, he can not, since he abandoned his comment and resorted to [posting it to Twitter instead](http://twitter.com/jlouderb/statuses/1085524887?ref=chrismessina.me). The problem apparently had to do with Clickpass, but that's besides the point, as the experience left a serious impression (**emphasis** mine): > And that gets me back to OpenID. I love the idea of having one set of identification credentials that I can use around the web. If it all works right, it’ll be awesome, birds will sing and the swallows will return to wherever they’ve disappeared from. But it won’t all work right, not all the time. We’re talking software here, and the internet, and the egos of childish web developers. Occasional (or more often) fail is guaranteed. It’s even worse than I feared. **A few days after my Disqus debacle I was talking with a developer friend of mine who was bemoaning the sorry state of OpenID implementations. It seems that all the big sites have their own flavors, and the** [**OpenID foundation**](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) **just doesn’t have enough clout to force a single standard across the web.** That’s a bad state of affairs. It guarantees more fail - and also guarantees epic finger-pointing. Who will lose? The users, first, who won’t be nearly as patient nor accommodating as I am. But in the end the whole glorious promise of OpenID will be left in tatters, and we’ll be back to our walled-gardens of identification. And that’s just too bad - because an open, interoperable identity system is actually one of the best ideas I’ve heard in a long time. Too bad no one can get their act together to actually build it right. And these are the stories that will be told and retold because it's not the successes that are heralded — it's the epic failures. As much as I like to [rag on Twitter about OAuth](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/02/twitter-and-the-password-anti-pattern/?ref=chrismessina.me), their service is a million times better than it was six months ago during the Summer of the Fail. Twitter ops deserve a lot of credit for making hard decisions about which features should be cut in order to scale the service. But when it works, people don't shower Twitter with praise. It's expected. It's only when there are problems that people raise their voices — and it's no different with OpenID. Unfortunately it's this cacophony of complaints that ends up shaping the negative perceptions of OpenID. So, when the [Japanese chapter](http://www.openid.or.jp/?ref=chrismessina.me) of the OpenID Foundation [releases figures](http://www.slideshare.net/nat%5Fsakimura/sharing-the-success-of-openid-japan-success-presentation?ref=chrismessina.me) that show significant and gaining consumer awareness of OpenID in Japan that contradict the outdated and [statistically insignificant](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/11/12/independent-study-on-openid-awareness-using-mechanical-turk/?ref=chrismessina.me) findings ([PDF](http://developer.yahoo.com/openid/openid-research-jul08.pdf?ref=chrismessina.me)) that Yahoo [presented last year](http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2008/10/open%5Fid%5Fresearch.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (on which [so much](http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/10/15/yahoo-mainstream-has-no-idea-what-openid-is/?ref=chrismessina.me) [criticism was heaped](http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/Yahoo%5FUsers%5FBefuddled%5Fby%5FOpenID?ref=chrismessina.me)), [few](http://notsorelevant.com/2009-01-04/openid-successful-in-japan/?ref=chrismessina.me) seem to notice. [](http://www.slideshare.net/nat%5Fsakimura/sharing-the-success-of-openid-japan-success-presentation?ref=chrismessina.me)Progress in Japan alone isn't enough of course. But it does suggest that there is more to the story of OpenID's overall progress and success in the marketplace. It also suggests that OpenID has yet to [succumb to Facebook Connect](http://www.socialtimes.com/2008/12/will-openid-lose-to-facebook-connect/?ref=chrismessina.me) or that it [ever will](http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/12/as-facebook-con.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (or that that's even the [right question](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/facebook%5Fconnect%5Fvs%5Fopen%5Fid.php?ref=chrismessina.me)). Still, what all this says to me is that the OpenID Foundation and the community at large have its work cut out for itself. As more people begin to believe in the promise of OpenID, more people will commit themselves to the success of OpenID, taking ownership of the idea, and promoting it their friends and family (as they did with Firefox). Our opportunity is to make good on the hope that people have for OpenID and effectively channel it to challenge the bruised perception that defines OpenID today. If we succeed, changing perceptions truly will change reality. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 15:32:31 You seem to be pointing at these examples of FUD and leaving them with little rebuttle. Are you expecting that readers of your blog know OpenID, and know that these analysis you have listed are patently untrue? Different implementations? Untrue: there is but one standard and any of the libraries will work with any of the OP/RP implementations out there. Things done behind closed doors? There may be a lot of that in supposedly "open" communities, but I don't think OpenID is one of them. There's whatever happens at the foundation, but the OpenID Foundation is a legal freckle, not a core component, of the OpenID process. Google has launched their own identity service, which seems odd, but they have \*also\* launched OpenID support. Whenever people ask me why I support the (in their opinion losing) OpenID technology, I tell them that OpenID \*has already won\*, from my point of view, because it \*works\* it's \*easy to implement\* and over 80% (probably more) of the internet has one. **[Phil Jeudy](http://www.altaidevalley.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 15:35:05 Just few comments... I don't want, and nobody should, getting any identity system being dominated by one of the major Big Web Company. The examples of issues we can have in terms of phishing, privacy, and so on could not be managed from any Google, neither Facebook. Definitely an independent corporation like OpenID is the answer, but it's true to mention that there's a lot of work to do in terms of interface or simplicity. It's really not easy to use an OpenID account, on a very simple user position. I experienced that... So let's go guys and now focus and product and its growth! **moopy** ¡ 2009-01-04 22:26:31 I think the perception is that OpenID is just siloed data yet again. If I am starting a new website that needs membership services, exactly how does OpenID help me? What data do I store? What data does OpenID store? How is it easier to THE DEVELOPER not the user? Truth is, many developers will choose to create their own membership systems again and again as they retain control of the membership data. On a related point, can someone point me to somewhere that best explains how to include OpenID in a new site, and how that ties in with site specific data...ie stuff that is not stored with an openid **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 22:37:48 @moopy: I'm a little confused by your point, and not sure how you're going to receive follow-ups since you didn't leave a valid email address, but that's your bidness. The reason why a developer would choose to support OpenID is because, in theory at least, it lowers the incline of the on-ramp for new users, since they can use existing accounts to sign up for your service. The research has shown that putting \*any\* barrier in front of users will cause them to balk at signing up for a new service, and that most shopping carts (for a commerce-based example) are actually abandoned before a transaction is completed. The easier you can make the process of signing in -- or of checking out -- the more transactions or account signups you'll have. Suggesting that OpenID somehow takes away control from the developer is like suggesting that you should force people to sign up for your email service to get an account. If someone has an OpenID -- why not let them use it? How you message to them or collect data about them is orthogonal to OpenID -- even though mechanisms like Simple Registration (SREG) and Attribute Exchange (AX) actually enable you to request certain aspects of someone's profile. OpenID doesn't cause you forfeit any of the mechanisms that you currently use to collect user data -- heck, make it as onerous as you like! The point, however, should be to make it more convenient and easy for someone to come back to your site later and not need to remember whatever password they used when they signed up. That means it's better for your customers, AND it lowers your support costs since people aren't constantly emailing you about their forgotten or lost credentials. Etc. Check out Joseph Smarr's [recipe for how to implement OpenID](http://www.plaxo.com/api/openid%5Frecipe?ref=chrismessina.me). **[Snowflake Seven](http://snowflake.seven.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 23:01:46 I find it amusing that the razor of Getting Real would be directed at OpenID. For starters, implementing the core nugget of OpenID was executed long ago and is out in the wild being used. OpenID is \*not\* feature-bloated vaporware. Additionally the notion of iteration that is so key to agile development, see Getting Real, is the process that OIDF has been pursuing as evidenced by the various attempts to improve the login process. Then there is the simple fact that the originators of the "Getting Real" philosophy, the gentlemen at 37signals, implemented OpenID across there product offerings quite a long time ago. And their customers use and love it. And as developers they seem to love it too. Unfortunately, I think in this case the "Getting Real" meme may have been picked up and misapplied. I think Mr. Messina is right that perception is a growing threat to OpenID. Frankly, he has been right for quite awhile. As important as persuading the big players is, persuading the general public is important too. Some work has been done on the public end in terms of usability and more should be done. But there is also a strange group in between Google & Johnny Q Public and that is who we hear the most noise from imho. And for what ever reason this noise group has a big impact on the perception of OpenID. And just in case I seem to much in Messina's corner, I'll through out that if anything could use a little "getting real" it would be DiSo. But that's only because I'm anxious for a friendly release. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 23:21:18 Thanks for your comments, Snowflake Seven. As for DiSo getting real -- I couldn't agree more -- to an extent. ;) The reality is that it's hard to shepherd an idea like DiSo forward when it requires so many pieces to be assembled in a way that works with the web that we have today, and with a lot of foreign concepts that seem somewhat unintuitive by today's standards. We're making up some of this as we go, too, and responding to market trends as things become more obvious over time. Still, a demo -- or at least a real flow -- that gets at what we're trying to do is something I really would like to produce for Q1 this year. Now that I'm on the OpenID board, I think it's imperative that I communicate more clearly about where I think this technology can go -- and to demonstrate how the DiSo concepts can help frame the discussion as we move forward. So, I appreciate the bump -- it's well founded. **[Pelle](http://kodfabrik.se/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 23:47:55 I agree with Snowflake Seven - seems like "Getting Real" was misapplied. What you quote Nick O’Neill as saying seems to be the classic difference between democracy and dictatorship. OpenID seems to be "Getting Real" as much as a democratic standardization organization can - but it's independent from all the large websites and can't (and shouldn't) deploy the standard themselves. That's a strength of OpenID - not a weakness. Google and Facebook on the other hand is more similar to "dictatorships" - they own large websites on which they can invent and deploy any standards that they want without asking anyone else. It's definitely faster but I doubt that it's better in the long term. **[Zo](http://www.humorlessbitch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-05 00:18:54 When OpenID first appeared—I'm writing here from a new user point of view—it looked like the answer to everything. Terrific! And—you want me to be real, here?—the moment I realized I was going to have to futz with multiple providers, deal broken. There is a multitude of Important, Worthy things begging for attention on the web, and a limited amount of hassle I'm going to volunteer for. Almost none, in fact. So, simply, there it rests. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-05 00:52:06 @Zo: that's an interesting perspective. I guess I'm confused by what you mean by "futz with multiple providers". One of the tenants of OpenID is that it ensures you choice — that is, if you want to switch your OpenID provider, you can do so, because the protocol is an open standard. That can not be said, for example, of Facebook Connect. If you've signed in to lots of sites using your Facebook account, and then decide that you no longer want to use Facebook anymore, you cannot switch your Facebook Connect provider. From your statement, it almost sounds like you prefer that model, but I'm not sure I understand your point. Certainly it can be confusing to have to pick a provider from the interfaces that offer you a selection of many OpenID providers — especially if you have accounts with more than one of them (which to pick?!). However, over time, the idea is that you would reuse one of those accounts more often than the others -- and become familiar with your preferred OpenID provider, just as you do with credit cards (perhaps you have one for business, one for personal expenses, one for airline miles, etc). Can you elaborate on what you're saying? **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » First blog post of the New Year](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2009/01/first-blog-post-of-the-new-year?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-05 13:55:31 \[...\] Messina (new member of the OpenID Foundation board) = “Perception and Reality in the land of OpenID”. Now that Chris is on the board, lets hope that OpenID’s brand can morph into a solution, \[...\] **[Robert W. Anderson](http://et.cairene.net/2008/12/16/voting-for-the-openid-board/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-05 17:00:17 Chris, I'm glad you are blogging this stuff -- I voted for you and am certain you will help move OpenID forward. In terms of perception, though, I think the big problem is how trust fits into OpenID. Many users believe that OpenID embodies a trusted relationship, but it does not. Or as Marc says in his post, "Most normal people think OpenID is the solution and just by “using it” all their issues will go away. HAH!" Because of the trust issue, few sites act as RPs because they can't trust arbitrary IPs. I know you are big on the user experience, and this fits in well: User's expect their OpenIDs to be accepted everywhere, but just because you have an OpenID doesn't mean it will be "good enough" for a site that uses OpenID. I hope you (and other members of the board) are interested in tackling \*this\* perception issue. Robert **John W** ¡ 2009-01-05 17:06:03 I still haven't bought into the ROI for going with OpenID. There just aren't enough benefits for the potential risks. The major risk, and I can't get over this, is that an OpenID provider somehow screws up and lets bad logins through. Immediately your site is at risk and you have no control over it. Your users are gonna come at you and you aren't going to be able to point the finger at the provider because I guarantee you most people won't get it. To me there would need to be a very compelling ROI to overcome the 3rd party risk, and I'm just not seeing that yet. This is especially true for Google and Facebook. They already have established user bases so enrollment isn't as big an issue as it could be, plus their products are differentiated enough that people aren't going to be deciding against them because they have to type in a password. Maybe Google and Facebook aren't really targets for OpenID consumers, though. **[Colin Henderson](http://thebankwatch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-05 19:01:18 Chris - having followed you and OpenId for a long time, I see two core issues you may wish to consider. 1\. how can I trust the OpenId provider? 2\. what can be done to make OpenId understandable to non-geeks. Congratulations on your election btw. Colin **Ian Muir** ¡ 2009-01-05 19:15:21 I'd have to agree with the general sentiment that OpenID is a good idea and it's something the web needs. However, I am in the same boat as many of the other developers. It's tough to see value in implementing OpenID for most of my sites. With the exception of sites with a largely technical audience, most users are unlikely to know they have an OpenID via existing services. In all honesty, I tried to get my mom using OpenID and she gave up and used the same username/password combo she always does. That leads to my second issue. OpenID doesn't replace my membership system, it only replaces authentication right? So now I'm implementing a new tool for some users, but I still have to manage my users' other data, so I'm really only saving a few fields in a database. I'm also likely to get stuck fielding the "I forgot my openid" issues. I guess this is the challenge that many developers face and what I think the "getting real" naysayers are pointing to. OpenID is a great idea, but if it creates more work for me and doesn't provide a percieved benefit for my users, it's a tough sell. For OpenID to be a success, the current state of things needs to improve a bit. The benefit needs to be clearer for developers and the non-tech crowd. You're right that perception is key, but even when searching I dont' see many OpenID success stories. It's easy to find negative posts, but there aren't a lot of postive experiences. Even 37Signals OpenID benefits page doesn't really list any benefits. **[Jim Louderback](http://www.louderback.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-06 19:59:45 We still believe in OpenID at Revision3, and definitely plan on implementing it. BUT, it has to be something that just works, and works right 99.9% of the time. I'll keep trying a few times, because I love this stuff. But the average consumer will try it, and if it fails once they may never go back. I hope everyone in the OpenID space agrees on a standard interoperability.. Because OpenID in theory is awesome.. Let's not let the details get in the way. Standards that work, like WiFi, are great. Standards that no one can agree on, like Ultrawideband, aren't. jim **[Zo](http://www.humorlessbitch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-07 03:38:31 @chris: Your explanation was more than I ever picked up from whomever I signed up with ... and I suppose it's the multiple providers that was, however ironically, why I lost interest. Pretend I'm a simple surfer, clinging to my (ugh) PC box, careening around the web. These people \*will\* not go through the hassle. Why multiple providers? Or was this way beta, the whole concept. Users tire of that, too. At least I did, and have been in waiting mode, figuring when OpenID firmed up and came together, I'd hear about it. Best wishes in this new endeavor. **[Paul A Houle](http://gen5.info/q/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-08 10:39:15 As a web site developer, I can't take OpenID seriously. It's hard to get users to register for web sites. (That's one reason why this blog lets people post comments without registering.) Any credible solution for federated authentication has to make things easier, not harder. OpenID makes it harder... I mean, what do I tell people? Go read this (confusing) web site about OpenID. Choose one of 20,000 providers. Well, if you choose one of them, you're a sell-out. You should register a domain name and start your own web site and have your own OpenID provider if you want people to take you seriously... Most users will have lost me about 1/10 of the way through that discussion. Facebook Connect is an entirely different experience. I can tell users what to do, they do it, and then they are registered and logged into my site. There's a narrow window of time that other competitors might be able to get in a credible position before Facebook Connect takes over. OpenID has been a dangerous distraction that is slowing down the response of potential FB Connect competitors. **[Fabio Turel](http://fabioturel.nova100.ilsole24ore.com/2009/01/the-id-web-map.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-13 07:58:25 Identity management is a key factor in the evolution of the web in the next few years, and - as usual - the balance between "user frendliness" and "user laziness" is a danger for truly open solutions, in favor of proprietary (but more attractive - in the short period) ones. **JR** ¡ 2009-08-16 13:29:15 I guess it would be a really bad idea to ask, but... How \_does\_ one recover one's forgotten OpenID? OpenID.net has no instructions, I've never seen a "forgot your OpenID?" link on any Web site using it (even the annoying Discus offers that much!)... and no one discussing OpenID on his/her blog seems interested in unlocking the mystery. Or \_is\_ a forgotten OpenID recoverable? I know, this might sound absolutely asinine to you all reading this, but this is why folks end up throwing their hands in the air and abandoning OpenID altogether. It's a nice idea, but most of us who try to use it don't have the time or the interest to care about anything on the back end. I just want a reminder of my forgotten OpenID -- which, frankly, is forgotten because I never use it unless absolutely forced to -- because I don't use it, because I can't remember it, because... See what I mean? So, uh, how \_does\_ one recover a forgotten OpenID? **[Pelle](http://voxpelli.se/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-08-16 23:16:11 @JR: If you forget an OpenID then for all sites which that was the single login option you would have to reset the account through a "Forgot your password?" kind of function. There is no generic way of restoring a forgotten OpenID in itself - it's up to every site who wants to use OpenID as a login option to create such a solution. If you on the other hand has forgotten how to log in to your OpenID - then it's up to your OpenID provider to decide how to handle that. So really - there is no standard way that a forgotten OpenID can be restored - it's up to each individual site to provide that possibility. ### Twitter and the Password Anti-Pattern URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/twitter-and-the-password-anti-pattern/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:31.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2986697776/?ref=chrismessina.me)I've written about the [password anti-pattern](http://adactio.com/journal/1357/?ref=chrismessina.me) [before](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/19/public-nuisance-1-importing-your-contacts/?ref=chrismessina.me), and have, with regards to Twitter, advocated for the adoption of some form of delegated authentication solution for some while. It's not as if Twitter or lead developer [Alex Payne](http://www.al3x.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) aren't aware of the [need for such a solution](http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/browse%5Fthread/thread/cf7a0daf4ac61a9d?ref=chrismessina.me) (in fact, it's not only been [publicly](http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/msg/bfe3f7b5705717d2?ref=chrismessina.me) [recognized](http://explore.twitter.com/al3x/status/981810659?ref=chrismessina.me) (and is [Issue #2](http://code.google.com/p/twitter-api/issues/detail?id=2&ref=chrismessina.me) in their API issue queue), but the solution [will be available](http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/browse%5Fthread/thread/4747d8bd49bebbe/3ad23e253bd8a5b6?lnk=gst&q=oauth&ref=chrismessina.me#3ad23e253bd8a5b6) as part of a "beta" program shortly). The problem is that it's taken so long for Twitter's "password anti-pattern" problem to get the [proper attention](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/mashups%5Ffirefox%5Fmay%5Fgo%5Foauth.php?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-63130) that it deserves (Twitter acknowledged that they were [moving to OAuth last August](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/mashups%5Ffirefox%5Fmay%5Fgo%5Foauth.php?ref=chrismessina.me)) that unsuspecting Twitter users have now exposed themselves (i.e. Twitter credentials) to the kind of threat we knew was there all along. This [isn't the first time either](http://www.techmeme.com/081113/p38?ref=chrismessina.me#a081113p38), and it probably won't be the last, at least until Twitter changes the way third party services access user accounts. Rather than focus on Twply (which [others](http://scobleizer.com/2009/01/01/twitter-warning-your-data-is-being-sold/?ref=chrismessina.me) [have](http://helloform.com/blog/2009/01/on-twply-and-giving-out-your-twitter-password/?ref=chrismessina.me) [done](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/01/the-problem-with-twply-is-you-cant-turn-it-off/?ref=chrismessina.me), and whose [evidence still lingers](http://search.twitter.com/search?q=Just+started+using+http%3A%2F%2Ftwply.com%2F&ref=chrismessina.me)), I thought I'd talk about why this is an important problem, what solutions are available, why Twitter hasn't adopted them and then look at what should happen here. ### Why the password anti-pattern matters I can't link directly to it, but comment #8 on [Fred Oliveira's post](http://helloform.com/blog/2009/01/on-twply-and-giving-out-your-twitter-password/?ref=chrismessina.me) captures one clear reason why the password anti-pattern increasingly matters more: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3159952301/?ref=chrismessina.me)Regardless of the *perceived* value of the service, when it comes to reputation online, little else matters than one's accumulated social and [data capital](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/16/data-capital-or-data-as-common-tender/?ref=chrismessina.me). Some people store their data capital (essentially original content coupled with residue from their social capital) with LinkedIn; others, Facebook or MySpace. Still others use their own blogs or rely on a medly of services like Twitter, FriendFeed, or Flickr. To some degree, experimentation with third party services can elevate one's status, drive commerce, or provide a recommendation filter for friends. So handing over the keys to the vault that stores your data capital *should* be a big deal. The more frequently we do this, the more routine it becomes, the more we become desensitized to the inherent risks in this behavior. And so we take it for granted that we must cough up a username and password in order to try out that new shiny service, given the countless times previously where *nothing bad happened*. And then you get Twply. Or [Quechup](http://www.chrishambly.com/content/quechup-and-mass-hysteria?ref=chrismessina.me). Now, phishing works in a similar way, but is distinctive in an important respect: In the case of phishing, it's kind of like a *faux valet* that stands outside a well-regarded restaurant waiting for unsuspecting victims to hand over the keys to their Benz (where that restaurant is your email account). Once a phisher gets a nibble, they position themselves as a known authority (i.e. your bank), preying on the naivete and disorientation of their victim. No where better is there than the web for such schemes, where the true value of account credentials are abstract and technical. The difference between run-of-the-mill phishing and [password anti-pattern cases](http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-anti-patterns?ref=chrismessina.me#Enter%5Fyour%5Fother%5Fsite%5Flogin%5Fand%5Fpassword) is *intent*. Most third parties implement the anti-pattern out of necessity, in order to provide an enhanced service. The vast majority don't do it to be malicious or because they intend to abuse their customers — quite the contrary! However, by accepting and storing customer credentials, these third parties are putting themselves in [a potentially untenable situation](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2008/01/04/this-antipattern-is-kryptonite-to-the-open-social-web/?ref=chrismessina.me): servers get hacked, data leaks and sometimes companies — along with their assets — [are sold off with untold consequences](http://adactio.com/journal/1538/?ref=chrismessina.me) for the integrity — or safety — of the original customer data. Given the ends (providing cross-site functionality (importing address books, posting to blogs or Twitter, etc)), you could argue that the means are incidental or justified. But we can — and have an obligation to — do better. ### Solutions for the password anti-pattern Given the prevalence of this problem, several solutions have emerged, most notably [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). OAuth is actually an [extraction of a number of protocols that came before](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/09/21/announcing-oauth-10-public-draft-1/?ref=chrismessina.me). In the place of a username and password, it substitutes a consumer key (like a username for an application) and a token, and adds a cryptographic signature to make sure that no one tampers with the "request envelope" while in transit. Interestingly, [OAuth emerged from a shortcoming with OpenID](http://oauth.net/about?ref=chrismessina.me). Since OpenID authentication works without passwords, we needed a way for OpenID to be used with APIs and in desktop applications. Therefore, we needed a way to *delegate authentication* back to an original source, and then receive *authorization* to act on behalf of the user, all without ever needing their user credentials. Of course this problem wasn't unique to OpenID, and so we developed it to be agnostic about how authentication is performed (that is, with or without OpenID). Since its release just over a year ago, OAuth has replaced both Yahoo and Google's custom delegated authentication protocols, and has become a central component of OpenSocial. More recently, [Eran Hammer](http://www.hueniverse.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), the specification's editor and lead author, brought [OAuth to the IETF](https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me) in order to [advance the community-driven protocol to the next level of internet infrastructure](http://zope.cetis.ac.uk/members/scott/blogview?entry=20081117161007&ref=chrismessina.me). But it's not the only solution to this problem. FriendFeed implements what they call a [Remote Key](https://friendfeed.com/remotekey?ref=chrismessina.me) in place of a user's password: > **What's a remote key?** A remote key is a kind of password that you can give to third-party applications and websites to let them interact with FriendFeed on your behalf. There are limits to what can be done using a remote key, which means it's a lot safer than giving a site your FriendFeed password. This idea was [suggested to Twitter](http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/browse%5Fthread/thread/cf7a0daf4ac61a9d/?ref=chrismessina.me) in November. While there are benefits to this model — especially in terms of simplicity — it requires a user to remember *two secrets*: their password and their remote key. It also means that all third-party applications act at the same level of authority, since services can't distinguish one application from another. For a service like FriendFeed, where most of the interactions seem to happen on-site, this model makes sense. For a service like Twitter, whose [primary traffic comes from external sites and applications](http://blog.programmableweb.com/2007/09/10/twitter-api-traffic-is-10x-twitters-site/?ref=chrismessina.me), it does not. And then there's the "security through obscurity" solution that provides access to data with single or limited use URLs that are usually so long and cryptic as to be virtually unguessable. This is the [solution that Basecamp offers its OpenID users](http://www.basecamphq.com/help/dashboard/?ref=chrismessina.me#openid%5FRSS) and that [Flickr uses for its guest pass service](http://blog.flickr.net/2006/11/20/triple-treat/?ref=chrismessina.me). ### Twitter and OAuth Anything besides the standard username and password combo will arguably add complexity and confusion to the user experience of web apps and mashups (both for users and developers). Alex Payne made this point loud and clear: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3025755155/?ref=chrismessina.me)Still, sooner than later, [something is going to need to be done](http://realityme.net/2008/12/03/twitter-api-severely-flawed/?ref=chrismessina.me). And Twply is only the tip of the iceberg. As people continue to accrue social and data capital, we're going to need to offer them [better options for securing their accounts while providing them flexible and usable access](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/26/responding-to-criticisms-about-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me). The sooner we start training people on the new model, the better off we'll all be. But Alex has [additional gripes](http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/msg/bfe3f7b5705717d2?ref=chrismessina.me) about OAuth: > The downside is that OAuth suffers from many of the frustrating user experience issues and phishing scenarios that OpenID does. The workflow of opening an application, being bounced to your browser, having to login to twitter.com, approving the application, and then bouncing back is going to be lost on many novice users, or used as a means to phish them. Hopefully in time users will be educated, particularly as OAuth becomes the standard way to do API authentication. Another downside is that OAuth is a hassle for developers. BasicAuth couldn't be simpler (heck, it's got "basic" in the name). OAuth requires a new set of tools. Those tools are currently semi-mature, but again, with time I'm confident they'll improve. In the meantime, OAuth will greatly increase the barrier to entry for the Twitter API, something I'm not thrilled about. These are actually very good points. At the same time, there's a balance to be found between accepting the status quo (thereby promoting it) versus creating the solution. Alex has repeatedly [referred to the work of the Twitter User Experience team](http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/msg/1ba83f87d8aef83b??ref=chrismessina.me) as slowing down their adoption of OAuth, but it seems to me that there's been an [open opportunity](http://therealmccrea.com/2008/10/20/live-blogging-the-openidoauth-ux-summit/?ref=chrismessina.me) to engage with the OAuth and OpenID communities to address these issues, especially as they are [at the core](http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2008/10/moving-another-step-closer-to-single.html?ref=chrismessina.me) of [why Google has yet to become an OpenID relying party](http://openid.net/pipermail/general/2008-October/006207.html?ref=chrismessina.me). These problems are not unique to Twitter and are issues that the entire community needs to address. As much as I'm a [pain in the ass](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/status/1025162682?ref=chrismessina.me) about OAuth support in Twitter, I am also willing to jump in and help develop solutions — but thus far, Twitter has been absent from the channels where solutions are being generated. Everyone's got their priorities and Twitter has come a long way in the past several months in terms of performance and stability. But in 2009, I want to defeat the password anti-pattern once and for all! Starting with Twitter would be a significant strategic achievement and I know that Twitter is game, it's just matter of getting it done and making it happen. So, Alex, where do we begin? What can we do to help? --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[David Recordon](http://www.davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-02 19:01:53 \[this is good\] **Bill de hÓra** ¡ 2009-01-02 20:49:07 "These are actually very good points." A bit more than that. The first point is the killer for OAuth. If developers are muddling their way through the specified redirections and token exchanges, then people are going to get lost on the flows. As for developers, an approach that will work on phones and settops not just desktop browsers will help. That way I won't have to document what you call the password anti-pattern and what I see as the de facto practice of client logins: **[Rod Begbie](http://groovymother.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-02 21:13:55 Someone with slightly more time on their hands than I could implement a Twitter OAuth proxy (much like Simon Willison did with OpenID, idproxy.net and Yahoo logins). Yes, they'd have to keep hold of all the usernames and passwords for a while, but developers could choose to develop against it, and it would hopefully be only a small tweak to shift apps to use the "real" API when the time comes. **[drewp](http://drewp.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-02 22:23:02 \> there’s the “security through obscurity” solution > that provides access to data with single or limited > use URLs that are usually so long and cryptic as to > be virtually unguessable. I don't think that's what S-T-O means at all. All password systems and many crypto schemes would be S-T-O if that's what the "obscurity" part was referring to. But S-T-O is a different, important concept that people are still confused about, so we should get it right when we talk about it. Pretend it's short for "security through algorithm obscurity". E.g. "many proprietary voting machines today are relying on security through obscurity". Long random URLs, on the other hand, become increasingly secure the more you learn about how they're generated and used. **Todd** ¡ 2009-01-03 04:20:49 What about an Prize style competition to help encourage a solution to Alex's "additional gripes" about n00bs and Oauth? I reluctantly acknowledge his points, but refuse to accept that there nothing that can be done. Outside our geek sphere, the X Prize competitions for space travel and a 100 mpg car have successfully spurred innovation and gotten results. In an odd bit of serendipity Mark Krynsky ( @krynsky )is the Web Producer for X Prize Foundation AND runs the Lifestream Blog( ??? ). I could hit him up and ask for his input on how to conduct an X Prize. Is this a good approach? **[Joseph Smarr](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-03 08:13:49 I think this is a case where Twitter should (at least for a while) support \*both\* HTTP Basic Auth and OAuth. This way, developers could still "walk up and use" the API with Basic, and even build some simple apps with Basic, but developers that care could also use OAuth, and if/when an app starts to get some traction, users could/would demand that they move to OAuth, which at that point would be an easy move to justify. This is also how we do it with Portable Contacts--it technically supports both HTTP Basic and OAuth, with the assumption that big sites in general are not going to support Basic (either technically or by policy), but this helps eliminate the "watch out for that first step, it's a doozy" challenge of developing with OAuth. :) **[Jesse Stay](http://staynalive.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-03 11:24:33 Chris, as you know from my comments on the Twitter dev list I'm more than annoyed by Twitter's lack of response on this. Thanks for working to bring more attention to this. If I can do anything to help please let me know. As I said on the list, I don't care what it is, but whatever the fastest solution they can release and have it out now is the solution they should implement **[David Recordon](http://www.davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-03 15:33:03 @Joseph, I agree that Twitter should support both their existing authentication mechanism and OAuth for quite awhile. After adding OAuth support, they'll need to be pretty proactive in getting client developers to switch their applications to use it. They'll then ideally continue following up with developers who are still using passwords to better understand if there is a reason beyond time that they haven't yet made the switch. Completely turning off their password based API authentication doesn't seem like a great idea since, as you said, they'll want to keep their API dead simple for developers to get started with. **[The First Twitter Worm Surfaces - Plain Passwords to Blame? | Stay N' Alive](http://staynalive.com/articles/2009/01/03/the-first-twitter-worm-surfaces-plain-passwords-to-blame/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-03 17:24:27 \[...\] This begs the question, though, which I’ve brought up multiple times in the forums and Chris Messina blogged about today on the urgency of Twitter requiring OAuth or similar Key-based authentication in the API. It \[...\] **[John Adams](http://netik@livejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-03 18:18:45 @joseph : The plan is to support Basic Auth and OAuth concurrently, for at least 6 months, if not more. We can't completely turn off the Basic Auth API without having a large impact to many APIs and clients. - John Adams Twitter Operations **[Tom](http://mbilf.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-03 18:56:40 What "Irony" in your tweet? Even if all remote sites took OAuth, this thing was designed to look like twitter, and you don't use OAuth from Twitter to log into Twitter! Sometimes I want to punch you in the face, Chris. **[Joe Cascio](http://joecascio.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-03 19:23:55 I don't buy the "developers would have a lot of trouble understanding it" argument. Yes, it's more involved than Simple Authentication but I was able to implement a web app client using the Flickr and Google authorization mechanisms in a few days, and that was using a new language and a new web framework in the bargain. Once you see how one works, it becomes a lot easier to understand the others as they all work on the same basic strategy. Also, there are open-source client libraries in many languages that simplify the developers job. Although quite frankly, I wrote the Google auth code making straight HTTP calls. I can't imagine OAuth is that much more complicated. I think the larger issue here is that Twitter has a moral obligation to at least try to provide whatever protection it can to its users' identities. The argument of "if you don't like it don't use it" is simply cavalier. People are using this service for more than just talking about what they had for breakfast. Twitter has a responsibility to their users and they ought to step up and fulfill it. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-03 19:33:21 The irony, Tom, is that Twitter titled their post "Don't Share Your Secret Info!" and yet that's the only way that you can use third-party apps, which Twitter clearly promotes. If Twitter says "don't share your secret info" but don't provide a way to still make use of third party apps, it's ironic because we've been saying that all along. I think it's time for your mom to send you to your room. You need to study more. **[Twitter and Facebook hit by phishing attacks | Technology | guardian.co.uk](http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/jan/04/twitter-phishing?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 12:43:03 \[...\] Chris Messina and others have pointed out, Twitter ought to support a mechanism such as OAuth for “delegated authentication”, and \[...\] **[Perception and reality in the land of OpenID | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/04/perception-and-reality-in-the-land-of-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 15:11:43 \[...\] FactoryCity This can all be made better. Ready? Begin. Skip to content AboutArchivesTagsProjectsLinksScreenshotsContact ÂŤ Twitter and the Password Anti-Pattern \[...\] **[Network Security Blog » Four information points on Twitter phishing](http://www.mckeay.net/2009/01/05/four-information-points-on-twitter-phishing/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-05 08:22:18 \[...\] Twitter and the Password anti-pattern - I’ve only gotten about half way through this paper, but I like the ideas I’m reading. This is basically an argument for taking Twitter beyond username/password and adding in functionality that would allow you to share some of your capabilities as a user with a third party. \[...\] **[buildblog | BerĂźhmte Twitter Accounts gehackt](http://www.buildblog.de/2009/01/05/beruhmte-twitter-accounts-gehackt/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-05 12:30:28 \[...\] sie auch nicht gehackt, sondern jemand ganz anderes. Immerhin verwendet Twitter seit Ewigkeiten das Anti-Pattern der Authentifzierung schlechthin… Tags: Password. hacking, Twitter, \[...\] **[Let's kill the password anti-pattern before the next web cycle Âť By Elias Bizannes Âť article Âť Liako.Biz](http://liako.biz/2009/01/lets-kill-the-password-anti-pattern-before-the-next-web-cycle/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-05 16:40:51 \[...\] by Chris Messina, I would like to see us all agree on making 2009 the year we kill the password anti-pattern. \[...\] **[OAuth for Twitter now!](http://pleasetwitterimplementoauthnow.com/2009/01/06/oauth-for-twitter-now/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-06 07:16:50 \[...\] application need a reliable and useful authentication-mechanism as well. As Chris Messina puts it: Everyone’s got their priorities and Twitter has come a long way in the past several months in \[...\] **[Twitter Security Fiesta Post-Mortem | Startup Security](http://startupsecurity.info/blog/2009/01/06/twitter-security-fiesta-post-mortem/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-06 11:20:52 \[...\] can wade through the various misconceptions. Chris Messina actually has a fantastic blog post on password usage and Twitter. Unfortunately, there is still the misconception that OAuth would have fixed this and prevented the \[...\] **[Identity, relationships and why OAuth and OpenID matter « Derivadow.com](http://derivadow.com/2009/01/08/identity-relationships-and-why-oauth-and-openid-matter/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-08 07:17:06 \[...\] aren’t trying to do anything malicious – far from it — as Chris Messina explains: The difference between run-of-the-mill phishing and password anti-pattern cases is intent. Most \[...\] **[almost effortless » Weekly Digest, 1-11-09](http://almosteffortless.com/2009/01/11/weekly-digest-1-11-09/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-03-30 07:55:09 \[...\] Twitter and the Password Anti-Pattern The more frequently we do this, the more routine it becomes, the more we become desensitized to the inherent risks in this behavior. And so we take it for granted that we must cough up a username and password in order to try out that new shiny service, given the countless times previously where nothing bad happened. \[...\] ### The results of the OpenID Board election are in! URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-results-of-the-openid-board-election-are-in/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:11.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3085754551/?ref=chrismessina.me)I received an SMS from [Michael Richardson](http://gobyairship.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) this morning (around 8am here in Hawaii) congratulating me on my election to the board of the [OpenID Foundation](http://oidf.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). It seems fitting that I should receive first word from him, since, as the Karl Rove of my campaign, he came up with the "[kind of a big deal](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/05/announcing-my-candidacy-for-the-board-of-the-openid-foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me)" slogan from [Anchorman](http://www.anchorman-themovie.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Anyway, I'm thrilled about the [outcome of the election](http://openid.net/2008/12/27/openid-board-election-results/?ref=chrismessina.me) and am looking forward to working with [Snorri Giorgetti](http://www.snorrigiorgetti.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Nat Sakimura](http://www.sakimura.org/en/?ref=chrismessina.me), [David Recordon](http://www.davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), (each of whom received two year terms along with me) and [Eric Sachs](http://eric.sachs.googlepages.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Scott Kveton](http://kveton.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), and [Brian Kissel](http://www.linkedin.com/in/briankkissel?ref=chrismessina.me) (who received one year terms). I'm also pleased that 80% of the 217 foundation members voted in the [first-ever OpenID election](http://openid.net/2008/12/16/openid-foundation-board-of-director-election-now-open/?ref=chrismessina.me). We've obviously got a lot of work ahead of us, but I'm very confident that we'll make great strides in 2009. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Todd** ¡ 2008-12-27 13:17:29 Congratulations. Please don't pull a Chris Saad and sneak off to Redmond and offer to sell OpenID to Ballmer :P http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/microsoft\_joining\_dataportabil.php **[Allen Tom](http://allentom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 13:22:10 Congratulations! **[Livia Labate](http://livlab.com/thinkia/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 13:24:59 Congratulations! They are lucky to have you. I'm looking forward to more from the OpenID Foundation! **[Marissa Louie](http://ad-village.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 13:45:28 Congrats, Chris! First the Slideshare t-shirts and now this! I know you'll be a great leader for OpenID :-) -Marissa **[Ashish Jain](http://ashishjain.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 16:51:26 Congratulations ! - Ashish **[Nate Westheimer](http://innonate.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 21:48:17 Congrats! **[Jean-Christophe](http://claimid.com/jeanchristophe?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-28 00:53:42 Congratulations ! The two year terms team rocks :) **Piero Rivizzigno** ¡ 2008-12-28 04:13:40 Chris, I really hope you will pursue a very PRAGMATIC approach in defining, suppoorting and promoting openid. We need results not debates. Congratulations **[Kevin Cheng](http://kevnull.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-28 12:37:47 Congrats, Chris! Looking forward to some usability enhancements to OpenID that make it truly appealing for developers and consumers alike. **[Marc Canter](http://marc.blogs.it/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-28 20:17:32 what about Joseph Smarr? And Eran? **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » So many experts, such little time](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/12/so-many-experts-such-little-time?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-28 20:22:58 \[...\] the new OpenID Foundation board \[...\] **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-28 21:04:46 Thanks all! There's clearly a lot of work to do, but I'm excited to get starting January 1 (or least, when I get back from vacation!). @Marc: Joseph is on the board of OpenSocial and Eran is spearheading the effort with OAuth at the IETF (as well as discovery). It was too bad that they weren't elected, but I think having or crew spread out a bit is okay -- in some ways, it was Eran's throwing his hat in the ring that convinced me to run -- I finally had to put my time where my mouth is a take on a role of responsibility. If not me, it would have been him! ;) **[Perception and reality in the land of OpenID | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/04/perception-and-reality-in-the-land-of-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 15:11:11 \[...\] couple related posts caught my attention recently about OpenID. As I’m now a board member of the OpenID Foundation, I feel some responsibility for helping to inform folks about OpenID: what \[...\] ### Responding to criticisms about OpenID: convenience, security and personal agency URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/responding-to-criticisms-about-openid/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:32.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3111987220/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Chris Dracket](http://shelfworthy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) responded to one of my tweets the other day, saying that "OpenID should be dead... it's way over-rated". I've of course heard [plenty of criticisms](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/10/28/openid-usability-is-not-an-oxymoron/?ref=chrismessina.me) of OpenID, but hadn't really heard that it was "overrated" (which implies that people have a higher opinion of OpenID than it merits). Intrigued, I replied, asking him to elaborate, which he did via email: > I don't know if overrated is the right word.. but I just don't see OpenID ever catching on.. I think the main reason is that its too complex / scary of an idea for the normal user to understand and accept. In my opinion the only way to make OpenID seem safe (for people who are worried about privacy online) is if the user has full control over the OpenID provider. While this is possible for people like you and me, my mom is never going to get to this point, and if she wants to use OpenID she is going to have to trust her sensitive data to AOL, MS, Google, etc. I think that people see giving this much "power" to a single provider as scary. Lastly I think that OpenID is too complex to properly explain to someone and get them to use it. People understand usernames and passwords right away, and even OAuth, but OpenID in itself I think is too hard to grasp. I dunno, just a quick opinion.. I think there is a reason that we don't have a single key on our key rings that opens our house, car, office and mailbox, not that that is a perfect/accurate analogy, but its close to how some people I've talked to think OpenID works. Rather than respond privately, I asked whether it'd be okay if I posted his follow-up and replied on my blog. He obliged. To summarize my interpretation of his points: **OpenID is too complex and scary, potentially too insecure, and too confined to the hands of a few companies.** The summary of my rebuttals: - OpenID will become a [**necessary convenience**](#convenience) in cloud computing. - OpenID can be [**incrementally secured**](#security) and, combined with OAuth, helps to defeat the password-anti-pattern. - OpenID is about more than just accounts and fewer passwords — it's a building block for online identity, and therefore [**personal agency for web citizens**](#agency). --- ### Convenience OpenID should not be judged by today's technological environment alone, but rather should be considered in the context of the migration to "cloud computing", where people no longer access files on their local harddrive, but increasingly need to access data stored by web services. All early technologies face criticism based on current trends and dominant behaviors, and OpenID is no different. At one time, people didn't grok sending email between different services (in fact, you couldn't). At one time, people didn't grok IMing their AOL buddies using Google Talk (in fact, you couldn't). At one time, you had one computer and your browser stored all of your passwords on the client-side (this is basically where we are today) and at one time, people accessed their photos, videos, and documents locally on their desktop (as is still the case for most people). Cloud computing represents a shift in how people access and share data. Already, people rely less and less on physical media to store data and more and more on internet-based web services. As a consequence, people will need a mechanism for referencing their data and services as convenient as the `c:` prompt. An OpenID, therefore, should become the referent people use to indicate where their data is "stored". An OpenID is not just about identification and blog comments; nor is it about reducing the number of passwords you have (that's a by-product of user-centered design). Consider: - if I ask you where your photos are, you could say Flickr, and then prove it, because [Flickr supports OpenID](http://blog.flickr.net/en/2008/01/31/flickr-and-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me). - if I ask you where friends are, you might say MySpace, and then prove it, because [MySpace will support OpenID](http://developer.myspace.com/Community/blogs/devteam/archive/2008/07/24/openid-coming-to-a-myspace-profile-near-you.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me). - if you host your own blog or website, you will be able to provide your address and then prove it, because you are [OpenID-enabled](http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/openid/?ref=chrismessina.me). The long-term benefit of OpenID is being able to refer to all the facets of your online identity and data sources with one handy — *ideally memorable* — web-friendly *identifier*. Rather than relying on my email addresses alone to identify myself, I would use my OpenIDs, and link to all the things that represent me online: from my resume to my photos to my current projects to my friends, web services and so on. The big picture of cloud computing points to OpenIDs simplifying how people access, share and connect data to people and services. --- ### Security I've heard many people complain that if your OpenID gets hacked, then you're screwed. They claim that it's like putting all your eggs in one basket. But that's really no different than your email account getting hacked. Since your email address is used to reset your password, any or all of your accounts could have their passwords reset and changed; worse, the password *and* the account email address could be changed, locking you out completely. At minimum, OpenID is no worse than the status quo. At best, combined with OAuth, third-parties never need your account password, defeating the [password anti-pattern](http://adactio.com/journal/1357?ref=chrismessina.me) and providing [a more secure way to share your data](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/19/public-nuisance-1-importing-your-contacts?ref=chrismessina.me). Furthermore, because securing your OpenID is outside of the purview of the spec, you can choose an OpenID provider (or set up your own) with a level of security that fits your needs. So while many OpenID providers currently stick with the traditional username and password combo, others offer more sophisticated approaches, from client-side certificates and hardware keys to biometrics and image-based password shields (as in the case of my employer, [Vidoop](http://vidoop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)). One added benefit of OpenID is the ability to audit and manage access to your account, just as you do with a credit card account. This means that you have a record of every time someone (hopefully you!) signs in to one of your accounts with your OpenID, as well as how frequently sign-ins occur, from which IP addresses and on what devices. From a security perspective, this is a major advantage over basic usernames and passwords, as collecting this information from each service provider would prove inconvenient and time-consuming, if even possible. Given this benefit, it's worth considering that identity technologies [are being pushed on the government](http://www.forbes.com/technology/2008/12/11/smart-cards-obama-tech-enter-cx%5Fsm%5F1212smartcards.html?ref=chrismessina.me). If you're worried about putting all your eggs in one basket, would you think differently if the government owned that basket? OpenID won't force anyone to change their current behavior, certainly not right away. But wouldn't it be better to have the option to choose an alternative way to secure your accounts if you wanted it? OpenID starts with the status quo and, coupled with OAuth, provides an opportunity to make things better. We're not going to make online computing more secure overnight, but it seems like a prudent place to start. --- ### Personal agency for web citizens Looking over the landscape of existing social software applications, I see very few (if any) that could not be enhanced by OpenID support. OpenID is a cornerstone technology of the emerging social web, and adds value anywhere users have profiles, accounts or need access to remote data. Historically, we've seen similar attempts at providing a universal login account. Microsoft even got the name right with "Passport", but screwed up the network model. Any identity system, if it's going to succeed on the open web, needs to be designed with user choice at its core, in order to facilitate marketplace competition. A single-origin federated identity network will always fail on the internet (as [Joseph Smarr](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [John McCrea](http://therealmccrea.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [like to say](http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/OpenID%5FQ%5FA:%5FPlaxo%5Fs%5FJoseph%5FSmarr%5Fand%5FJohn%5FMcCrea?ref=chrismessina.me) of Facebook Connect: [We've seen this movie before](http://therealmccrea.com/2008/07/16/my-prediction-for-2008-a-mid-year-check-in/?ref=chrismessina.me)). As such, selecting an identity provider should not be relegated to a default choice. Where you come from (what I call *provenance*) has meaning. For example, if you connect to a service using your Facebook account, the relying party can presume that the [profile information](http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1story=108&ref=chrismessina.me) that Facebook supplies [will be authentic](http://www.insidefacebook.com/2008/12/10/facebook-connect-making-blog-comments-more-authentic/?ref=chrismessina.me), since Facebook works hard to ferret out fake accounts from its network (unlike MySpace). Similarly, signing in with a Google Account provides a verified email address. Just like the issuing country of your passport may say something about you to the immigration official reviewing your documents, the OpenID provider that you use may also say something about you to the relying party that you're signing in to. It is therefore critical that people make an informed choice about who provides (and protects) their identity online, and that the enabling technologies are built with the option for individuals to vouch for themselves. In the network model where anyone can host their own independent OpenID (just like anyone can set up their own email server), competition may thrive. Where competition thrives, an ecosystem may arise, developed under the rubric of market dynamics and Darwinian survivalism. And in this model, the individual is at the center, rather than the services he or she uses. This the citizen-centric model of the web, and [each of us are sovereign citizens of the web](http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/vrm/2008/11/20/vrm-is-personal/?ref=chrismessina.me). Since I define and host my own identity, I do not need to worry about services like [Pownce being sold](http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/?ref=chrismessina.me) or [I Want Sandy](http://iwantsandy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) users [left wanting](http://www.valuesofn.com/blog/2008/11/fork-in-road.html?ref=chrismessina.me). I have choice, [I have bargaining power](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/11/26/data-banks-data-brokers-and-citizen-bargaining-power/?ref=chrismessina.me), and I have *agency*, and this is critical to the viability of the social web *at scale*. --- ### Final words OpenID is not overrated, it's just early. We're just getting started with writing the rules of social software on the web, and we've got a lot of bad habits to correct. As cloud computing goes mainstream (evidenced in part by the [growing popularity of Netbooks this holiday season!](http://gigaom.com/2008/12/26/for-amazon-netbooks-are-a-smash-hit/?ref=chrismessina.me)), we're going to need a consumer-facing technology and brand like OpenID to help unify this new, more virtualized world, in order to make it universally accessible. Fortunately, as we stack more and more technologies and services on our OpenIDs, we can independently innovate the security layer, developing increasingly sophisticated solutions as necessary to make sure that only the *right* people have access to our accounts and our data. It is with with these changes that we must evaluate OpenID — not as a technology for 2008's problems — but as a formative building block for 2009 and the future of the social web. --- --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[James Walker](http://walkah.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 08:12:26 Well said, dude. I think the "building block" aspect of OpenID is the one that is commonly misunderstood. It's one I've tried to stress a lot in presentations and talks - using analogies such as your OpenID is akin to your passport / driver's license number, etc. I've found slowly (but surely) lightbulbs are starting to go off within my small sphere of influence. "OpenID is not overrated, it’s just early." Indeed. **[John McCrea](http://therealmccrea.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 15:33:30 Hey, Chris, nice post! One point of clarification, when I invoke the "We've seen this movie before" analogy, I am making reference to something much bigger than Facebook Connect or any one company's efforts. As in my recent keynote at the Open Stack meetup, linked here: http://therealmccrea.com/2008/12/24/my-keynote-address-at-last-weeks-open-stack-meetup/, you'll see I'm talking about why so many companies are working together on the Open Stack. The "We've seen this movie before" is one of four reasons why companies like Google, Yahoo, MySpace, Plaxo, and so many others are working together... **[Robert Mark White](http://robert.mark.white.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 17:45:43 “OpenID is not overrated, it’s just early.” and you are exactly right to say this, this is just the beginning of openid can do. **[Jason](http://vxjasonxv.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-28 13:52:41 This was what jumped out at me pretty much immediately: I think there is a reason that we don’t have a single key on our key rings that opens our house, car, office and mailbox, not that that is a perfect/accurate analogy, but its close to how some people I’ve talked to think OpenID works.But it's funny that most people have a single password (and typically username) in our keychains (lol Mac data management joke) for our e-mail, our blogs, our forums, and our social networks. **[Eric Hopper](http://www.omnifarious.org/~hopper/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-28 15:58:54 I sort of agree that OpenID is a poor solution. But I don't think anything better is possible withing the current infrastructure. I think there needs to be an infrastructure upgrade, largely so people can easily have an identity tied to an identity provider they have full control over. I think that's a killer issue with OpenID. That being said, I think OpenID is currently the best thing going. **vinny ricardo** ¡ 2008-12-28 16:08:24 I agree with everything in your rebuttal. They are all good points. But the key feedback that motivated this post was that "normal users don't get it" (the "it" being OpenID and not federated login in general) and your rebuttal didn't address that. The feedback is that normal users understand "Sign in with Facebook" or "Sign in with Yahoo". On the contrary, they don't understand "Sign in with OpenID". OpenID as an underlying/hidden technology probably makes more sense. Just as in the corporate environment, you don't message to users that they should "Sign in with SAML". **[Elias Bizannes](http://liako.biz/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-28 23:08:13 Good post Chris. Something that I think needs to be clarified, and which determines what role OpenID plays in the world, is whether it's a "brand" or a "technology"? It can't be both, and the decision the Foundation adopts will greatly impact it. OpenID can be a brand for the technology like it currently is, but the attempts to make it a brand for single-sign are creating issues. If it's a brand, it means competing identity systems need to work under the brand. That's a good thing, because OpenID is not suited for all situations. It also means we can tackle the challenge OpenID faces which is recognition and brand awareness, under a more unified effort. But this is going against the very thing that OpenID is, which is a technology solution. I think the solution for a lot of OpenID's problems, is coming to grips with this identity problem (pardon the pun). **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-29 11:48:35 @Vinny: Hmm, you're kind of right! Well, I guess I wanted to frame the argument that OpenID shouldn't only be evaluated as a single sign-on solution, but as more than that... but today's OpenID really only does one thing for you, and for many people, in a way that doesn't make much sense... *yet*. By demonstrating some of the benefits of OpenID in the future, I was trying to make the point that OpenID will make some tasks easier that are hard, and that those tasks will become increasingly common for people. As that occurs, the benefits of OpenID will be made more plain and will outweigh was is currently a somewhat cumbersome and confusing user experience. In other words, the way OpenID authentication is done today isn't actually that bad once you get used to it. However, unless or until you have many accounts keyed to your OpenID, you won't see much benefit in using it (especially if you use 1Password or your browser password manager). It's access to your data that OpenID will facilitate, and I think that the flow, given the web of today, will eventually make sense to people (not to mention that we can get browsers to support it better, etc). @Elias: I completely disagree with you, and I disagree with Luke Shepard (Facebook) as well. OpenID is both a technology and needs to become more of a brand. I don't understand why there's a conflict there. Blu-ray, Bluetooth, FireWire and USB are all technologies that also are strong brands (the former two obviously better examples). OpenID needs to be a strong, secure technology that people also can recognize and take some ownership of ("I know what my OpenID is"). We did it with Firefox — granted to a limited extent — but still enabled a large number of web users to switch from the anonymous "Blue E" to something different. There will definitely be room for Google Friend Connect, Facebook Connect and a bunch of login buttons on websites, but long term, we need to have a strong OpenID brand in the mix as well, or else we end up creating the modern day equivalents of Ford, General Motors, Chrysler. For me, "Open Stack" is what we're using (so far, with all its foibles) to describe the technology behind, or in concert with, OpenID that makes it a viable competitor to Facebook Connect. OpenID is the brand that needs to become consumer-friendly if we're going to see long term adoption. In Japan, OpenID was the [third most popular buzzword used in IT media in 2008](http://www.sakimura.org/en/modules/wordpress/index.php?p=68&ref=chrismessina.me). If we keep moving in this direction, I think we'll make good progress establishing and popularizing the OpenID brand. **[Elias Bizannes](http://liako.biz/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-30 07:36:57 No, you're right Chris my bad. I guess I am still trying to place OpenID in the broader Identity world and my thoughts are a little jumbled. Key will be to make the Open Stack ready. Facebook has won this round, but that's a good thing - it's driving adoption of the concepts and creating mass market awareness. History has proven empires and companies fail (no exceptions on that rule), so the Open Stack just needs to be ready to sweep when Facebook fumbles. There's time still, but let's keep the train moving! **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » final 2008 blogging](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/12/final-2008-blogging?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-31 16:29:59 \[...\] Chris Messina responds to criticism of OpenID \[...\] **[Bertil Hatt](http://twocroissants.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-02 06:33:41 I think you haven't adddressed my main criticism, and you actually give me a stricking proof of it by writing a beautifully revealing lapsus, and the end of the second list: "because you are OpenID-enabled." Read again: 'you', not 'your website'. I'm not afraid of you sticking a 3G-enabled, DNS-referenced, server-capable chip under the skin of my forearm, but I've been very concern by your prejudice for quite some time. You associate someone and their website, i.e. a unique URL that they fully control. It's fine for A- or B-list bloggers, people whose work focus on building a personnal, public, digital brand on-line, but not for most people. Most people efforts are not centered aroung designing content for a website, within a team so small and talented they control, know and trust all the elements on it and can be assured all the meta-info fit their individual goals for self-projection. You are making the same ethnocentric mistake Stallman does when he assumes the only thing most people want to change on their computer is knick and bolts within the OS (while a majority are far more insterested in the desktop image). With that focus, I can't promiss you higher adoption figures then GPL among mass market. The reason so many have argued in favor of e-mail identifiers instead of URL is because they identify with it far more. Many web professionals have their details distributed among many URLs (and no intention to make it coherent on one site). Far more non-geeks have hardly any information outside of a few corporately controlled silos, that they identify as the corporation far more then with themselves. If you want an example of that "it's the company, not me" in case, consider the recent uproar on breast-feeding and Facebook: were the interns censoring profile pics responsible? Obviously not: they simply answered the explicit request to do so, from one of the mother's \*friend\*. The fact that Facebook is a tool for social relations (not unlike the phone) appeared completely oblivious — and people are now helding a protest against AT&T because their mother-in-law use offensive language on the phone. You feel that it's natural to point at a website and say "This is me". As long as the people on the board you were apopointed to do not understand this is not spontaneous, I predict OpenID might stall. Some people point at a house and say "This is me"; some point at a car; some might consider a song, or a film: maybe a cellphone. For those, their licence plates, their myspace ID, their nickname or their cellphone number is the obvious identifier. When I write "obvious", please understand that I mean: autistic, unable to comprehend other people's different representation of the world, "Please get a clue and realize I actually /happen to know several 'John's/own several computers/was given this cellphone by my boss, for professional use only". For me (and many of your friends I'm assuming) it's more natural to point at a laptop and say "This is me". My natural identifier is my MAC address, and I would love the world to have a MAC-based Wifi for all, including an automated enforced return of stolen property: it would be safer, more secure, more convenient, obviouly more intuitive and easier. My main concern, being conneted at any time, could be resolved for everyone, including those who share their computer, or have several, those who don't care and have no clue what MAC is, or that it is an ideal identifier. And this dream would autistically focus on one type of identifier, a different one then OpenID. The fact that the extract that I've taken is under "Convenience" makes it all the more painful to me. Regarding the comment that you are addressing: I had the impression that Chris Drackett was considering \*perception\* of safety and simplicity, not actual issues. Throwing a four page long technical essay on how de-facto safe things are make it all the more confusing, and frightening. My girlfriend things a street next to her place is unsafe; as it happens, there is a (overstaffed) Police Station in that street — but, because the paint on the walls is scaling, she finds it scary. Don't try to increase security by doubling the officiers' shifts: try to find out what color would make it look more reassuring. Jason, regarding the key analogy, Actually, this can be the case with digital ID cards, used in Universities, Hotels and shot-term rentals: all the locks have a list of allowed users, and every user has a single, unique ID. Logs compared to camera make the actual safety system, but keys are being reconsidered in that way, at least in comprehensive living environment. **[Dan Brickley](http://danbri.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-02 11:36:26 Bertil - it is probably not ideal using 'autistic' as a near synonym for 'clueless'. In fact I think we'll see quite a few single-use OpenIDs, in the sense of you just go thru the OpenID UI dance just once, to prove that you control the relevant page/account, and then after that, things are as they were. Many discussions of OpenID assume every day use. But we can have many specialist OpenIDs for different aspects of our lives, some linked publically, some linked privately ... it's a pretty rich ecosystem with many options possible. For example, I might want to prove to some other site that I'm the account holder for http://www.advogato.org/person/danbri/ (eg. to use the trust ratings in http://www.advogato.org/person/danbri/foaf.rdf or something similar in microformateze). There are various ways I might do this, eg. by logging in there and wiring up a blogroll to have rel=me pointer to another account. But logging in with my Advogato OpenID seems a simpler workflow. Right now they don't offer OpenID over at Advogato, but since even simple delegation would do the job, I think there are good reasons to expect this to change. Chris - nice writeup. I think the citizenship angle is well worth pushing and I'd be very happy to see the Foundation emphasise it more strongly. And w.r.t. eggs in one basket, the inbox=master key argument can't be repeated often enough. **[Twitter and the Password Anti-Pattern | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/02/twitter-and-the-password-anti-pattern/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-02 18:31:08 \[...\] As people continue to accrue social and data capital, we’re going to need to offer them better options for securing their accounts while providing them flexible and usable access. The sooner we start training people on the new model, the better off we’ll all \[...\] **[Christopher Fahey](http://www.graphpaper.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 17:56:08 *But that’s really no different than your email account getting hacked. Since your email address is used to reset your password, any or all of your accounts could have their passwords reset and changed; worse, the password and the account email address could be changed, locking you out completely.* *At minimum, OpenID is no worse than the status quo.*There's the problem. People want *one* final point where all their authentication is finalized. Chris Dracket was on to this when he suggested that people who cannot host their own OpenID solution would be reluctant to trust Yahoo, etc. But it's not because it's a third party big company. It's because it doesn't replace email as your "weakest link" point of ID verification. A common usage model (more common than I think many of us want to think) for site validation, I fear, is this: 1) go to the site 2) "email me my password" 3) log in Most people think of their email account as the center of their online universe, consciously or not. Unless you can get OpenID into people's email clients you will always face the problem of people having to remember two passwords. Anything more than one is basically infinity. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 18:02:53 Absolutely, which is why we've advocated for [enabling email addresses as OpenIDs](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/06/22/announcing-emailtoid-mapping-email-addresses-to-openids/?ref=chrismessina.me). Frankly, as long as you can verify it, it doesn't matter if it's a URL or an email address -- it's an ID of some sort! I agree that the "email me my password" is pretty common. So is people forgetting their OpenIDs! Ideally if we can get folks in the habit of identifying themselves on a regular basis with one (or two) identifiers that are also OpenIDs, good things can come from that. Today there's just too much fragmentation. **[Chris Drackett](http://chrisdrackett.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 19:17:30 I thought I would take a moment and chime in to this conversation (albeit a bit late.) In generally I totally agree that a system is needed to fill the rolls and functions that Chris Messina talks about above. I think my real beef against openID is one: that its early, just as Chris says.. and two that any "master key" needs to be extremely well thought out before presented to users. My worry is that basic web users who see or try and learn about openID at this point in time are going to get confused or apprehensive and associate these feelings with the openID brand; This possibly could be negative to openID in the future. I'm all for the fact the openID is currently out in the wild and evolving amongst us geeks. Maybe the problem is that this evolution and testing is taking place under the out-facing consumer brand? I'm not sure, but this thread has gotten me thinking about openID for the first time in a while. Which makes me glad I posted such a abrasive twitter reply to Chris ;) (a post which was quite over dramatic.. such is twitter... **[Dev Blog AF83 » Blog Archive » Veille technologique : articles, IE6, Javascript, technologies, frameworks, performances, OpenID…](http://dev.af83.com/veille-technologique/veille-technologique-articles-ie6-javascript-technologies-frameworks-performances-openid/2009/01/06/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-06 09:17:08 \[...\] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/26/responding-to-criticisms-about-openid/ : Chris Messina rĂŠpond aux attaques contre OpenID. \[...\] **JM** ¡ 2009-01-10 15:17:48 John, I'm pretty sure the reason multiple companies are involved isn't because they just wanna get along; it's because Facebook is killing all of them combined and their fearful of what the future will hold. You guys pretend to be this open group of ideas that are sharing transparently with the public. "Anyone can contribute to our cause." Bullshit. You (Plaxo, Google, Yahoo and MySpace) are merely pushing each others agenda and making decisions around how they'll benefit each of you rather than how they benefit the community. This bullshit support of Google/Yahoo OpenID login buttons is a great example of that. Fuck Google. Fuck Yahoo. Those buttons aren't what OpenID is about. It completely destroys its decentralization when an RP needs to pick and choose the OID providers they want to support. You guys are full of shit and it's too bad. I'd love to get behind you. Unfortunately you're agenda is defined by your business and if either of you were in the position Facebook was, you'd be doing your own thing too. **DanMan** ¡ 2010-05-26 13:39:01 Good post. Here are my thoughts: On security: What if you're using OpenID to log into your email providers web mailer? And that email is noted in your OpenID account? Then hacking your OpenID account will give an intruder access to both your OpenID and email account. Consequence: never ever, ever use OpenID to log into your email account. Someone should go and tell all email providers. Apart from that, it really isn't any less secure than what we have now. It could be even a little bit more secure: hacking one's email account will probably tell on which sites someone is registered. Your OpenID account may not give someone any clue about this - depends on your OpenID provider, really. P.S.: Could you make your website wider please? :) ### Where we're going with Activity Streams URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/where-were-going-with-activity-streams/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:10.000Z The [DiSo Project](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) is [just over](http://willnorris.com/2008/12/diso-one-year-later?ref=chrismessina.me) a [year old](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/06/oauth-10-openid-20-and-up-next-diso/?ref=chrismessina.me). It's remained a somewhat amorphous blob of related ideas, concepts and aspirations in my brain, but has resulted in some notable progress, even if such progress appears dubious on the surface. For example, [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) is a core aspect of DiSo because it enables site-to-site permissioning and safer data access. It's not *because of* the DiSo Project that OAuth exists, but my involvement in the protocol certainly stems from the goals that I have with DiSo. Similarly, Portable Contacts emerged (among other things) as a response to Microsoft's "[beautiful fucking snowflake](http://twitter.com/kevinmarks/statuses/1068364292?ref=chrismessina.me)" [contacts API](http://dev.live.com/contacts/?ref=chrismessina.me), but it will be a core component of our efforts to distribute and decentralize social networking. And meanwhile, [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) has had momentum and a following all its own, and yet it *too* fits into the DiSo model in my head, as a cornerstone technology on which much of the rest relies. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3122318414/?ref=chrismessina.me)Tonight I gave a [talk specifically about activity streams](http://www.slideshare.net/factoryjoe/activity-streams-presentation/?ref=chrismessina.me). I've [talked about them](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/06/11/a-conversation-about-social-network-interop-and-activity-stream-relevance/?ref=chrismessina.me) before, and I've [written about them](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/06/11/adding-richness-to-activity-streams?ref=chrismessina.me) as well. But I think things started to click tonight for people for some reason. Maybe it was the introduction of the [mocked up interface](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3122318414/?ref=chrismessina.me) above (thanks [Jyri](http://www.zengestrom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)!) that shows how you could consume activities based on human-readable *content types*, rather than by the service name on which they were produced. Maybe it was providing a narrative that illustrated how these various discreet and abstract technologies can add up to something rather sensible and desirable (and looks familiar, thanks to Facebook Connect). In any case, I won't overstate my point, but I think the [work](http://groups.google.com/group/activity-streams/?ref=chrismessina.me) that we've been doing is going to start accelerating in 2009, and that the [activity streams project](http://activitystrea.ms/?ref=chrismessina.me), like OAuth before, will begin to grow legs. And if I haven't made it clear what I'm talking about, well, we're starting with an assumption that activities (like the ones in Facebook's newsfeed and that make up the bulk of FriendFeed's content) are kind of like the synaptic electrical impulses that make social networking work. Consider that people probably read more Twitter content these days than they do conventional blog posts — if only because, with so much more content out there, we need more smaller bite-sized chunks of information [in order to cope](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/18/technology/personaltech/18basics.html?ref=chrismessina.me). [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3103164628/?ref=chrismessina.me)So starting there, we need to look at what it would take to recreate efficient and compelling interfaces for activity streams like we're used to on FriendFeed and Facebook, but without the benefit of having ever seen any of the services before. I call this the "zero knowledge test". Let me elaborate. When I say "without the benefit of having ever seen", I primarily mean from a programmatic standpoint. In other words, what would it take to be able to deliver an equivalent experience to FriendFeed without [hardcoding support](http://singpolyma.net/2008/12/describing-actionstream-sources/?ref=chrismessina.me) for only a few of the more popular services (FriendFeed currently supports 59 out of the thousands of candidate sites out there)? What would we need in a format to be able to join, group, de-dupe, and coalesce individual activities and otherwise make the resulting output look human readable? Our approach so far has been to [research](http://www.apparently.me.uk/23202.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and [document](http://wiki.diso-project.org/activity-streams?ref=chrismessina.me) what's [already out there](http://wiki.diso-project.org/activity-streams-examples?ref=chrismessina.me) (taking a hint from the [microformats process](http://microformats.org/wiki/process?ref=chrismessina.me)). We've then begun to specify different approaches to solving this problem, from [machine tags](http://wiki.diso-project.org/activity-stream-machine-tags?ref=chrismessina.me) to [microformats](http://microformats.org/wiki/activity-streams?ref=chrismessina.me) to [extending ATOM](http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atomactivity?ref=chrismessina.me) (or [perhaps RSS](http://www.apparently.me.uk/22793.html?ref=chrismessina.me)?). Of course, we really just need to start writing some code. But fortunately with products like [Motion](http://movabletype.com/motion/?ref=chrismessina.me) in the wild and plugins like [Action Stream](http://singpolyma.net/plugins/actionstream/?ref=chrismessina.me), we at least have something to start with. Now it's just a matter of rinse, wash and repeat. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Gordon Rae** ¡ 2008-12-20 03:05:02 Looks like something messed up all your hyperlinks. Could you tidy this up and repost, plz? **[David Janes](http://code.davidjanes.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-20 07:28:33 A.HREF fail there Chris. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-20 08:39:20 Wow, BIG TIME fail! HA! Looks like MarsEdit stripped out all my brackets.... like they were being rationed or something. Thanks for the report guys! **[Ofer Egozi](http://alteregozi.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-20 13:05:13 Chris, you still have a broken link to the slideshare presentation (just below the mockup image). Unlike some other social web standards in the making (say OAuth or PoCo), it seems like here you're really diving into the "**what**", not just the "**how**". That's a potential issue, consider how difficult to it may be foresee, for example, all the possible verbs that *future* services will implement. If I look at a somewhat similar case, the [XFN relation types](http://gmpg.org/xfn/11?ref=chrismessina.me), I find that a total failure. On the one hand, I have no idea how to describe very common relations (for example, people on my blogroll that inspire me, but I never met or can't consider a contact), on the other hand there are no less than four romantic relations, probably the most transient relation type, and thus they are probably almost never used. Would be interesting to hear how you think that could be tackled - open/extensible wiki list? some committee to take requests?... **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-20 18:15:46 @Ofer: Fixed that last niggling link. Thanks. As for your question, yes, this is obviously a challenge. Generically I think you do start out with the how, but clearly in this case, what's valuable IS the "what". Therefore, we're taking the approach of doing lots of research and then starting with a small subset of what we find in the wild to include in the spec. From there we can indicate how to add new verb types, but like hashtags, it really depends on popularity and adoption -- in some ways, if we do our work right, the types will emerge from actual behavior, rather than trying to guess at them in advance. https://wiki.diso-project.org/activity-streams-examples I also wouldn't say that XFN is a total failure. I think that XFN can be extended however much you want -- and be expressive as you like. If you're good at popularizing your extensions, then they'll catch on. Put another way, XFN started somewhere, and now at least it's supported in some popular software (of course, I've said that [rel-contact and rel-me should be sufficient](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/11/portable-contact-lists-and-the-case-against-xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Anyway, if you'd like to contribute some research into what's out there, we'd definitely appreciate it! **[furilo Âť El Open Stack para la web social](http://www.furilo.com/archivos/el-open-stack-para-la-web-social/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-21 03:35:51 \[...\] unos cuantos servicios: Learning About the Open Stack for the Social Web. Chris Messina ha colgado su presentaciĂłn sobre Activiy Streams: Activity \[...\] **[Dare Obasanjo](http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-21 13:10:13 \>Similarly, Portable Contacts emerged (among other things) as a response to Microsoft’s “beautiful fucking snowflake” contacts API, but it will be a core component of our efforts to distribute and decentralize social networking. I find this amusing on so many levels. Then again, it is consistent with the me-too-effort-but-were-better-because-we-are-OPEN culture that surrounds OpenSocial and related efforts. I wonder what you think about the thread at http://groups.google.com/group/portablecontacts/browse\_thread/thread/f4398fbb3c416f44?pli=1 **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-21 13:57:44 Just for clarification, it wasn't me that called Microsoft's Contacts API a BFS... It was someone from Microsoft! I think the point is that the open/community approach may not result in "better" solutions, but through rough consensus, we can arrive at solutions that many parties will adopt (or at least that's been the case). While MSFT solutions gain adoption in the House of MSFT, we've seen less of their solutions spread through viral channels, at least recently, without large marketing campaigns behind them. **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » pre X-mas blogging ‘08](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/12/pre-x-mas-blogging-08?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-22 13:37:00 \[...\] Chris Messina and the DiSO project will be focusing on Activity streams. I’d like to help out on friending, shared social graphs and dashboards. \[...\] **[Mike English](http://mikeenglish.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-23 18:30:48 Chris, I really like where this is going. I'm starting to consider myself part of your 'tribe.' If you can find the right niche for me to help out with DiSo, please let me know. I've dabbled in programming here and there. If any of you have the time/generosity to get me up to speed on how everything works so far... **[Ben Werdmuller » The Open Stack is the future of the Web](http://benwerd.com/2008/12/the-open-stack-is-the-future-of-the-web/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-24 00:00:00 \[...\] demos from the likes of Smarr, OpenSocial’s Kevin Marks and DiSo’s Chris Messina (whose ActivityStreams work could lead to interesting places, and mirrors some of the stuff we’ve been doing behind \[...\] **[Twitter Moving Towards Jaiku? | ArcticStartup](http://www.arcticstartup.com/twitter-moving-towards-jaiku/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-29 10:23:22 \[...\] any time soon we all should give Jaiku another try. Struggling with two services is a drag, but things are changing fast, and once the users are there, Jaiku and Twitter can complement each other until the two services \[...\] **[Live Blogging from the Activity Streams Meetup « The Real McCrea](http://therealmccrea.com/2009/01/08/live-blogging-from-the-activity-streams-meetup/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-08 15:48:36 \[...\] Media and Social Network Activities in RSS/Atom Feeds. Also recommend this post from Chris Messina, Where we’re going with Activity Streams. Also for good background, here’s Chris Messina’s talk on Activity Streams at the \[...\] **[BrianOberkirch.com – Sundries](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2009/01/09/sundries/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-09 05:00:43 \[...\] McCrea liveblogged the Activity Streams working session yesterday. You might want to check out the update on all the Activity Stream work Chris Messina has been leading. While you’re at it, watch Joseph Smarr demo how some of \[...\] **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » DiSO Activity streams standard](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2009/01/diso-activity-streams-standard?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-09 21:35:36 \[...\] Chris Messina has been researching the issues and Marty Atkins came up with the first draft spec for this DiSO \[...\] **[Social network distribuiti e proprietĂ  dei profili](http://markup.nu/blog/2009/01/14/social-network-distribuiti-e-proprieta-dei-profili/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-14 02:07:21 \[...\] Where we’re going with Activity Streams This entry was posted in Open Stack and tagged activity streams, dashboard, diso, friendfeed, oauth, Open Stack, openid, portable contacts, socialthing. Bookmark the permalink. Post a comment or leave a trackback: Trackback URL. ÂŤ Social network e privacy \[...\] **[Digital Agency](http://just-digital.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-07-17 05:00:25 This is all new to us. We discovered the Twitter API and its powerful search. This Activity Stream data is more useful than we could ever think. Powerful stuff **[What is Facebook’s Endgame with Open Graph API? « The Alter Egozi](http://alteregozi.com/2009/10/31/what-is-facebooks-endgame-with-open-graph-api/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-10-31 14:24:30 \[...\] and consuming an individual’s lifestream events to lifestreaming frameworks, a standard promoted by open standards evangelist Chris Messina. So that fits in nicely into the puzzle now: \[...\] **[Tyler Gillies](http://tylergillies.mp/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-12-26 00:20:12 I'm still failing to see the point of activity streams. you say "Maybe it was the introduction of the mocked up interface above (thanks Jyri!) that shows how you could consume activities based on human-readable content types, rather than by the service name on which they were produced." but you would still need to manually add the service url's. or is a this a matter of being able to filter certain actions? sidenote--blah failed to auth via openid, was it my provider? (chi.mp) i clicked "always trust" so it wasn't my fault **[Activity Streams, Ephemeral Data and the Short List Pattern - Corvus Consulting](http://corvusconsulting.ca/2009/11/activity-streams-ephemeral-data-and-the-short-list-pattern/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-11 21:31:42 \[...\] Chris Messina’s presentation at Facebook in late 2008 and related blog post \[...\] **[Foreign Friends: from a service-centric to an object-centric social web :: Zengestrom](http://www.zengestrom.com/blog/2008/12/foreign-friends-from-a-service-centric-to-an-object-centric-social-web.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-02-03 05:34:15 \[...\] his presentation at Friday’s event, Chris Messina demonstrated the use case of subscribing to someone who \[...\] **[Simple Simon](http://www.simple.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-02-15 06:36:07 DeGroot points out that, while customers and suppliers may have their own ways of calculating dielectric constant, having a standardized IPC methodology will allow for better benchmarking of such attributes as frequency, classes of material types, and standardized test structures that are similar to practical signal traces. **[iDoStuff](http://www.idostuff.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-07-28 03:34:02 Interesting stuff. I'm hoping at some point this modeling will lead to intuitive interfaces that lead to conections of and into niche communities where global knowledge can be collected and communicated. **David Sigouin** ¡ 2010-08-03 12:28:06 Wow looks like a nice blog I just found out.. I didn't get everything about the DiSo Project but I'll read more about it.. **[Mining Activity Streams | On Collaborative Planning](http://kswenson.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/mining-activity-streams/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-10-15 10:07:08 \[...\] seems that for two years there has been a large effort to provide a standard format for syndicating social activities around the web known as “activitystrea.ms“. The site claims a large number of \[...\] ### I'm a candidate for the board of the OpenID Foundation! URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/im-a-candidate-for-the-board-of-the-openid-foundation/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:09.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3085754551/?ref=chrismessina.me)The OpenID Foundation board election [opened up on December 10](http://openid.net/2008/12/16/openid-foundation-board-of-director-election-now-open/?ref=chrismessina.me). After a grueling [nominations process](http://openid.net/2008/12/03/openid-foundation-board-of-director-nominations-open/?ref=chrismessina.me) (not really), we were left with 17 candidates vying for seven community board member seats. Your candidates are (alphabetized by first name): - [Allen Tom](http://allentom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Brian Kissel](http://bkkissel.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [**Chris Messina**](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ← that's me! - [David Recordon](http://davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Dick Hardt](http://blame.ca/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Eran Hammer-Lahav](http://hueniverse.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Eric Sachs](http://eric.sachs.googlepages.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Johannes Ernst](http://netmesh.info/jernst?ref=chrismessina.me) - [John Bradley](http://thread-safe.livejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Joseph Smarr](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Luke Shepard](http://www.facebook.com/people/Luke-Shepard/2901279) - [Martin Atkins](http://mart.degeneration.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Mike Kirkwood](http://www.kirkwood.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Nat Sakimura](http://www.sakimura.org/en/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Peter Nixey](http://www.webkitchen.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Scott Kveton](http://kveton.com/blog?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Snorri Giorgetti](http://snorri.eu/?ref=chrismessina.me) So far, a [great deal of discussion](http://openid.net/pipermail/general/2008-December/thread.html?ref=chrismessina.me) has gone on about the various candidates' platforms on the OpenID [general mailing list](http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general?ref=chrismessina.me). Candidates have also written about things that they would like to change in the coming year on their blogs as well, notably [Dave Recordon](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/343116.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Johannes Ernst](http://netmesh.info/jernst/Digital%5FIdentity/my-oidf-objectives-2009.html?version=200812081337&ref=chrismessina.me). For my own part, I wrote up many of my ideas when I [announced my candidacy](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/05/announcing-my-candidacy-for-the-board-of-the-openid-foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me). I also maintain a wiki page of [goals that I have for OpenID](https://wiki.factoryjoe.com/OpenIDGoals?ref=chrismessina.me). The three issues that are at the top of my list should I be elected to the board really come down to: - **establishing OpenID as a strong consumer brand** - **improving the user experience and ease-of-use of OpenID** - **enhancing the value of adopting OpenID for individuals, businesses, and organizations** I will lay out my rationale for these positions in a series of upcoming posts. In the meantime, if you'd like to vote in this [election](https://openid.net/foundation/members/elections/1?ref=chrismessina.me), you will need to [register for a $25 year-long membership](https://openid.net/foundation/members/registration?ref=chrismessina.me) in the [OpenID Foundation](https://oidf.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) (basically providing you the privilege to participate in this and other foundation elections and activities). I also solicit your feedback, concerns and wishes for OpenID. Though I have plenty ideas about the kind of work that needs to go into OpenID to make it into a *great* cornerstone technology for the open web, I'm also very interested in hearing from other people about their experiences with OpenID, or about their ideas for how we can advance the cause of [OpenID in 2009](http://openid2009.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Fred Stutzman](http://fstutzman.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-15 05:21:56 Chris, you've got my endorsement. You've done a great deal for the OpenID movement and I hope you'll be able to join the board. **[Elias Bizannes](http://eliasbizannes.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-23 04:07:06 Voted for you - good luck :) ### Bookmarks for November 24 to December 08 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-november-24-to-december-08/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:45.000Z A bi-weekly collection of linky goodness. #### [Fluidity/Discover.io](http://discover.io/?ref=chrismessina.me) "Fluidity enhances the effectiveness of the social networks you are already on, helping you cut through the noise and identify both new people and old acquaintances to connect with. Today, you would need to explicitly search and message them, or to random Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [WordPress › WP-Oomph ÂŤ WordPress Plugins](http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/wp-oomph/?ref=chrismessina.me) "Adds the Oomph Microformats toolkit's microformat overlay to any WordPress-generated pages (as long as the page has a microformat in it, of course)." Tags: [wordpress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [iList Classifieds - Post and Search Free Classified Ads](http://ilist.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) "At iList, we harness the power of your social networks on Facebook, MySpace, Twitter and more to share your listing with millions of people." Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Biggest Battle Yet For Social Networks: You, Your Identity And Your Data On The Open Web](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/11/30/facebook-google-myspace-data/?ref=chrismessina.me) "Today’s the day that Facebook makes their big press push for their Facebook Connect service, which was first announced last May. The NY Times has a story giving a broad overview of Connect as well as competing services from MySpace (Data Availability) an Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Open Source: The Model Is Broken - BusinessWeek](http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/nov2008/tc20081130%5F276152.htm?ref=chrismessina.me) "The open-source business model that relies solely on support and service revenue streams is failing to meet the expectations of investors" Tags: [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Extensions ?(Chromium Developer Documentation?)](http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/extensions?ref=chrismessina.me) Design document for Chrome extensions. Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Copyright Policy | Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team](http://change.gov/about/copyright%5Fpolicy?ref=chrismessina.me) "Except where otherwise noted, content on this site is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License. Content includes all materials posted by the Obama-Biden Transition project. Visitors to this website agree to grant a non-exclusive, irrevoc Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [calaboration - Google Code](http://code.google.com/p/calaboration/?ref=chrismessina.me) "Calaboration makes it easy to set up iCal to synchronize with your Google Calendar calendars. It automatically finds all of your calendars and allows you to add any of them to iCal with the press of a button." Tags: [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Spoonjuice - Night Stand](http://spoonjuice.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) "Night Stand displays a beautiful digital clock on your iPhone or iPod touch. You don't have to buy a night stand clock for your bedroom anymore: you get a gorgeous, glowing clock for FREE and right under your fingertips. Anytime you need it, anywhere you Tags: [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [A YouTube for All of Us (YouTube Blog)](http://www.youtube.com/blog?entry=AEX3%5F7h40mk&ref=chrismessina.me) YouTube cracks down on smut and custom thumbnail images. Sounds like decent ideas for the health of the ecosystem. Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Apple finally taking orders for new in-ear headphones (AppleInsider)](http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/12/02/apple%5Ffinally%5Ftaking%5Forders%5Ffor%5Fnew%5Fin%5Fear%5Fheadphones.html?ref=chrismessina.me) "the Apple Earphones with Remote and Mic are described as having "all the performance and comfort of the acclaimed Apple iPod Earphones plus convenient buttons that let you adjust volume and control music and video playback." One of the biggest draws of Tags: [apple](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/apple?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [The End of the Red Light District (Ning Blog)](http://blog.ning.com/2008/12/the-end-of-the-red-light-district.html?ref=chrismessina.me) "Our focus is on creating incredibly simple, beautiful software and rapidly adding new features for the benefit of all. We can’t do that as efficiently as we need to and still support adult networks on Ning. It’s that simpl" Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Site-Wide Metadata for the Web](http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-site-meta-00.txt?ref=chrismessina.me) "This memo describes a method for locating site-wide metadata for Web sites." Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Somatic Rebirth System by David Lanham](http://iconfactory.com/freeware/preview/somasys?ref=chrismessina.me) "Redrawn and updated Somatic system replacement icons." Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Microformats.org Wiki 2.0 ¡ Microformats Wiki](http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-2?ref=chrismessina.me) "Microformats.org has been served by a near-default MediaWiki theme since it first went live in 2005\. Over the years the kind of content published on the wiki has been established, and the editing practices of our community better understood. The ‘Wiki 2. Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Twittershare | Phoreo.com - Design + Technology for Do-Gooders](http://www.twittershare.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) "Share pictures, music, video, and other files with friends using Twitter." Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Memo to OpenID: Keep it simple, please | Webware - CNET](http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939%5F109-10111404-2.html?ref=chrismessina.me) "OpenID and its brethren could use a good, simplified marketing pitch, not to mention some announcements and partnerships that are more prominent than an extension for a niche Web browser. They need to use the resources that the likes of MySpace and Yahoo Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Wells Fargo vSafe: Protect, Organize & Access Important Documents](https://www.wellsfargo.com/wfonline/wellsfargovsafe/index?mplx=6878-38920-3408-130&ref=chrismessina.me) "The new Wells Fargo vSafe service offers secure online storage for you to safeguard, organize, and access electronic copies of important documents—from birth certificates and immunization records to wills and treasured photos." Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Kathleen Parker - The Twitter Phenomenon -- In Touch, Always, in Cyberspace - washingtonpost.com](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/02/AR2008120202935.html?ref=chrismessina.me) Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Announcing my candidacy for the board of the OpenID Foundation URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/announcing-my-candidacy-for-the-board-of-the-openid-foundation/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:08.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3085754551/?ref=chrismessina.me)This is the statement (credit to [Michael Richardson](http://gobyairship.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) for my [campaign slogan](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlMXyYyXcWo&ref=chrismessina.me)) that I submitted to [answer the call](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/the%5Fopenid%5Ffoundation%5Fboard.php?ref=chrismessina.me), [nominating myself](http://openid.net/2008/12/03/openid-foundation-board-of-director-nominations-open/?ref=chrismessina.me) as a candidate for community representative to the [OpenID Foundation](http://oidf.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) board: > I have long been involved with the OpenID community and have advocated for its adoption ever since I discovered it. It is a central building block of the emerging Open Stack and of the DiSo Project, an effort that I co-founded to create reusable components for decentralized social networking. To get right to it: I'm running for a seat on the OpenID board because I believe that there is a need for change, for evolution, for setting a clear direction, and a need for a passionate rededication to the promise that OpenID represents. Above all else, I also believe that the OpenID brand needs to be strengthened to mean something specific, in the same way that brands like Visa and Mastercard now, many years after their introduction, indicate the ability to use an abstract identifier (like a piece of plastic) to access something of value (namely, your accounts). In the case of OpenID, for some, it may mean connecting with friends or pulling in photos or bookmarks from one's favorite services. It may also simply mean not having to get another password, or it might provide a more convenient way to identify yourself. But bottom line, the Foundation needs to see through OpenID becoming a strong and recognizable consumer brand. To do this, we need to: 1) I believe that we must make OpenID more usable, but I also believe we must enhance the value of having an OpenID in the first place. Single sign-on is not enough. Facebook Connect demonstrates real value for both relying parties and for Facebook account owners; OpenID must mean more to people than one less password — it has to be seen as a vehicle leading to the socialization of the web in a way that's meaningful, durable, and that enhances individual choice — and therefore, freedom. 2) Over the past year, we have chalked up high level support from such companies, and though their support is invaluable, we must continue to increase our visibility and credibility by consistently becoming more inclusive, more diverse and more expansive in our reach. The OpenID community needs to organize itself as an ally to developers, designers, relying parties, businesses, governments, municipalities, and educational institutions, and move beyond the emphasis on large internet companies. To make OpenID more usable and valuable: a) To this end, I believe that the Foundation should commission an ongoing series of general user studies on trends in online identity management and conduct surveys on OpenID brand awareness, OpenID usability, virtual identity internalization, and online social behavior. The Foundation should endeavor to become an authoritative source of knowledge, understanding and best practices for creating identity solutions for people on the social web. b) Personally, I would like to improve the state of the OpenID web site and use of social media. I've done quite a bit of work marshalling communities with social software and am happy to take on such responsibilities. c) I also believe that further progress must be made to harmonize OpenID and OAuth, and that the work that Google has spearheaded in this regard is critical. d) I would like to centralize the OpenID libraries, either on Google Code or GitHUB, and through the existing bounty program, incentivize the development of optmized language-specific libraries, as we have done with the OAuth community. This effort would be incomplete without the development of a test suite and series of test servers against which various libraries and implementations could be tested. To help expand scope, reach, visibility of OpenID: a) To do this, we must develop 21st century trademark guidelines, as Mozilla has, that enable us to maintain the integrity of the name and the mark, while also supporting widespread publishing and promotion of the mark, through non-commercial grassroots communities and networks, just like the Firefox brand. As a former community admin of the Spread Firefox project, I can confidently lend my experience here. c) There is a need for more decentralized \*camp-style events that promote solutions built on Open Stack technologies like OpenID, and we need to increase our presense and marketing materials at popular trade events both within and beyond the web community. I have proposed to O'Reilly a full day of workshops at the upcoming Web 2.0 Expo event in San Francisco and have initiated a conversation with Wired to develop a series of tutorials for their Webmonkey How-to wiki. We need to move beyond web-based outreach and marketing and start encouraging involvement in OpenID from folks in the real world. d) Along with improving OpenID in desktop contexts and mobile devices, I think that OpenID can become useful in console gaming situations, just as people have become used to the idea of Wii Codes and Xbox gamertags (why aren't those OpenIDs?!). OpenID is at a critical juncture, and with the right people involved, the OpenID Foundation and its supporters will usher in the future of the free and open social web. Recent conversations have convinced me that the role of the boardmember brings with it a certain visibility, responsibility, and an opportunity to lead from within that would provide me with a platform to be more effective and to realize my [aspirations](https://wiki.factoryjoe.com/OpenIDGoals?ref=chrismessina.me) for OpenID more quickly. I am also impressed by the caliber of individuals running for the board (though I would have preferred to see a more diverse pool of candidates, since OpenID isn't only used by male internet users). And to put my candidacy in context, I want to make it clear that I will continue to advocate for and advance the cause of OpenID whether or not I am selected to the board. Nominations close on Monday and I need at least two seconds to be eligible to be voted on. Voting begins on Dec 10 and ends Dec 24, with the results of the election being announced by Dec 31\. In order to vote in the [election](https://openid.net/foundation/members/elections/1?ref=chrismessina.me), you'll need an OpenID and [membership in the OpenID Foundation](http://openid.net/foundation/members/registration?ref=chrismessina.me) (which will run you $25). But if you really need a reason to spend $25 and vote for me, here it is: Now, this is a story all about how My life got flipped-turned upside down. And I liked to take a minute Just sit right there, I'll tell you how I became the prince of a town called Bel Air. In west Philadelphia — born and raised. On the playground was where I spent most of my days Chillin' out, maxin', relaxin', all cool and all shootin some b-ball outside of the school, when a couple of guys who were up to no good startin making trouble in my neighborhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared She said 'You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air'. I begged and pleaded with her day after day, but she packed my suitcase and sent me on my way. She gave me a kiss and then she gave me my ticket. I put my walkman on and said, 'I might as well kick it'. First class, (yo this is bad), drinking orange juice out of a champagne glass. Is this what the people of Bel-Air living like? Hmmmmm this might be alright. But wait I hear they're prissy, wine all that. Is Bel-Air the type of place they send this cool cat? I don't think so I'll see when I get there I hope they're prepared for the prince of Bel-Air. Well, the plane landed and when I came out there was a dude who looked like a cop standing there with my name out. I ain't trying to get arrested, I just got here! I sprang with the quickness like lightning, disappeared! I whistled for a cab and when it came near, the license plate said fresh and it had dice in the mirror. If anything, I can say this cab is rare! But I thought 'Nah forget it' - 'Yo homes to Bel Air!' I pulled up to the house about 7 or 8 And I yelled to the cabbie 'Yo homes smell ya later' I looked at my kingdom I was finally there to sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[tagami](http://www.smallworlds.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-05 23:49:28 Chris, Big step & you have my full support! Let me know how I can assist in any way. **[Allen Tom](http://allentom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-05 23:55:38 You would make a fantastic addition to the board, and I'm happy to second your nomination! **[Beau Lebens](http://dentedreality.com.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-06 00:08:02 That's awesome Chris. I think you'll make a great addition to the board. I'd second (or third) your nomination. **[Carsten PĂśtter](http://notsorelevant.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-06 00:21:33 The more people with a vision running for the board the better. Good decision, Chris. **[Andreas L.](http://markup.nu/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-06 00:32:47 Hi there! I've just seconded your nomination, and Scott Kveton's (I know him since he was at OSUOSL and I know he happens to be very passionate about open "stuff"). Me, and probably others, do not know most of the other nominee: do you have any suggestion about who should get seconded? As in: who would you love to build the future of OpenID with? Thanks and good luck! **[Carsten PĂśtter](http://notsorelevant.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-06 01:34:51 I don't think it's necessary to give recommendations as all nominees have provided statements which should give voters a good idea who is running for the board. Just my $0.02. **[Andy Baio](http://waxy.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-06 02:25:32 The Fresh Prince of OpenID. **[Georgi](http://ghs.myopenid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-06 06:24:09 got my vote **[Ben Saren](http://yoursuspect.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-06 07:23:22 Likewise Chris! I'm behind you 100%. **[David Horn](http://madrox.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-06 18:10:23 If I promise to vote for you, can I get one of those awesome buttons? **brian** ¡ 2008-12-09 12:31:13 I'll vote for you **ray** ¡ 2008-12-10 05:52:53 Hi, I was reading ur blog posts and found some of them to be very good.. u write well.. Why don't you popularize it more.. ur posts on ur blog ‘factor city’ took my particular attention as some of them are interesting topics of mine too; BTW I help out some ex-IIMA guys who with another batch mate run www.rambhai.com where you can post links to your most loved blog-posts. Rambhai was the chaiwala at IIMA and it is a site where users can themselves share links to blog posts etc and other can find and vote on them. The best make it to the homepage! This way you can reach out to rambhai readers some of whom could become your ardent fans.. who knows.. :) Cheers, **[I’m a candidate for the board of the OpenID Foundation! | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/14/im-a-candidate-for-the-board-of-the-openid-foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-14 17:54:27 \[...\] my own part, I wrote up many of my ideas when I announced my candidacy. I also maintain a wiki page of goals that I have for \[...\] **[tarpipe blog » Why OpenID?](http://blog.tarpipe.com/2008/12/15/why-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-15 10:01:53 \[...\] Messina is proposing some innovation on this area after he is elected as community representative to the OpenID \[...\] **[Twitter Strategy | Social Media Strategy | Jesse Liebman](http://www.jesseliebman.com/2008/12/15/captain-planet-meets-twitter-strategy/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-15 22:17:10 \[...\] social media you helped keep the buzz going by retweeting. Then Chris Messina announced his candidacy for the board of OpenID Foundation your retweeting made the buzz around Chris feel like hurricane force winds. The seldom used tool of \[...\] **[The results of the OpenID Board election are in! | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/27/the-results-of-the-openid-board-election-are-in/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 13:00:48 \[...\] receive first word from him, since, as the Karl Rove of my campaign, he came up with the “kind of a big deal” slogan from \[...\] ### Bookmarks for November 10 to November 24 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-november-10-to-november-24/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:46.000Z A bi-weekly collection of linky goodness. #### [Garmin | Mac OS X - Current Software, news and more](http://www8.garmin.com/macosx/index.jsp?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Garmin | Mac OS X - Current Software, news and more](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/kavichefu/thumbnail/160) "Garmin is committed to creating a great software experience for all of our customers. This page is dedicated to keeping you up-to-date on our growing range of software made for Mac and helping you enjoy the full potential of your Garmin device." Tags: [gps](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gps?ref=chrismessina.me), [garmin](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/garmin?ref=chrismessina.me), [osx](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/osx?ref=chrismessina.me), [macosx](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/macosx?ref=chrismessina.me), [geolocation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/geolocation?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Live Piracy Map 2008](http://www.icc-ccs.org/index.php?option=com%5Ffabrik&view=visualization&controller=visualization.googlemap&Itemid=89&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Live Piracy Map 2008](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/slopuhofov/thumbnail/160) "This map shows all the piracy incidents reported by the IMB Piracy Centre in Kuala Lumpur during 2008." Tags: [piracy](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/piracy?ref=chrismessina.me), [map](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/map?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Garmin Connect](http://connect.garmin.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Garmin Connect](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/drastaduzik/thumbnail/160) A social network for Garmin product customers! Tags: [gps](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gps?ref=chrismessina.me), [garmin](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/garmin?ref=chrismessina.me), [mapping](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mapping?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Open Radar - Community bug reports](http://openradar.appspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Open Radar - Community bug reports](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/lofovo/thumbnail/160) This is brilliant. I wish I'd thought of it! Tags: [apple](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/apple?ref=chrismessina.me), [apple](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/apple?ref=chrismessina.me), [programming](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/programming?ref=chrismessina.me), [tracking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tracking?ref=chrismessina.me), [bugs](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bugs?ref=chrismessina.me), [development](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/development?ref=chrismessina.me), [radar](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/radar?ref=chrismessina.me), [osx](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/osx?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [BodyTrace - Weight tracking - weight loss and bodybuilding motivation at it's best](http://www.bodytrace.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![BodyTrace - Weight tracking - weight loss and bodybuilding motivation at it's best](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/bruzesa/thumbnail/160) "A comprehensive weight tracking program that allows you to monitor your weight, follow the changes of your body and let others see your progress. Your friends and supporters will keep you going, even at the hardest times." Tags: [selftracking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/selftracking?ref=chrismessina.me), [lifelogging](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/lifelogging?ref=chrismessina.me), [weight](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/weight?ref=chrismessina.me), [training](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/training?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Obama 60 Minutes Interview: Talks National Security, Financial Crisis, First Dog (VIDEO)](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/14/barack-and-michelle-obama%5Fn%5F144004.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Obama 60 Minutes Interview: Talks National Security, Financial Crisis, First Dog (VIDEO)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/gustagepit/thumbnail/160) "The interview covered many other topics, including national security, the financial crisis, Obama's thoughts on Lincoln and FDR, and an update on the new First Dog." Tags: [obama](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/obama?ref=chrismessina.me), [interview](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/interview?ref=chrismessina.me), [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Yahoo’s Jerry Yang to Step Down, As a Search for New CEO Commences (AllThingsD)](http://kara.allthingsd.com/20081117/yahoos-jerry-yang-to-step-down-as-a-search-for-new-ceo-commences/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Yahoo’s Jerry Yang to Step Down, As a Search for New CEO Commences (AllThingsD)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/thastistutoy/thumbnail/160) "Yahoo CEO Jerry Yang will step down from his job as CEO, said sources close to the company, as soon as the board finds a replacement for him, in what sources close to the situation call a joint decision by him and the company’s directors." Tags: [jerryyang](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/jerryyang?ref=chrismessina.me), [yahoo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yahoo?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [OpenTable's iPhone app makes reservations a breeze](http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/11/17/opentables-iphone-app-makes-reservations-a-breeze?ref=chrismessina.me) ![OpenTable's iPhone app makes reservations a breeze](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/kesciwigod/thumbnail/160) I've been waiting for this one. Tags: [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [reservations](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/reservations?ref=chrismessina.me), [opentable](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opentable?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Apple brings HDCP to a new aluminum MacBook near you](http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/11/17/apple-brings-hdcp-to-a-new-aluminum-macbook-near-you?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Apple brings HDCP to a new aluminum MacBook near you](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cithafow/thumbnail/160) Oh fuck me. Tags: [efftheriaa](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/efftheriaa?ref=chrismessina.me), [copyright](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/copyright?ref=chrismessina.me), [copyfight](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/copyfight?ref=chrismessina.me), [copyprotection](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/copyprotection?ref=chrismessina.me), [blu-ray](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/blu-ray?ref=chrismessina.me), [itunes](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/itunes?ref=chrismessina.me), [apple](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/apple?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Digital Nomads](http://www.digitalnomads.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Digital Nomads](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/tritheto/thumbnail/160) Digital Nomads is a community site for individuals that work or play without regard for their physical location. It is a place where they can come together to read about other digital nomads, share ideas, tips and tricks, and best practices, and read the Tags: [technology](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/technology?ref=chrismessina.me), [web2.0](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/web2.0?ref=chrismessina.me), [productivity](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/productivity?ref=chrismessina.me), [coworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/coworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Barnraiser - Prairie](http://www.barnraiser.org/prairie?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Barnraiser - Prairie](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/yishopuyu/thumbnail/160) "Prairie is a lightweight OpenID based Internet identity server. Instead of registering at every web site with different username and password combinations you use your identity server to log you in." Tags: [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me), [server](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/server?ref=chrismessina.me), [identity](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/identity?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [ConnectID: Naval gazing](http://connectid.blogspot.com/2008/11/naval-gazing%5F17.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![ConnectID: Naval gazing](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/momescuva/thumbnail/160) After rebuking the OpenID awareness, survey, Paul asks: "Is federated identity made easier, or more difficult, when the user is expected to be aware of not only where a non-local identifier is, but also what sort it is?" Tags: [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me), [identity](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/identity?ref=chrismessina.me), [saml](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/saml?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Landing sites ÂŤ WordPress Plugins](http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/landing-sites/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Landing sites ÂŤ WordPress Plugins](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/rovethe/thumbnail/160) "When visitors is referred to your site from a search engine, they are definitely looking for something specific - often they just roughly check the page they land on and then closes the window if what they are looking for isn't there. Why not help them b Tags: [wordpress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me), [wordpress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me), [plugin](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/plugin?ref=chrismessina.me), [searchengine](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/searchengine?ref=chrismessina.me), [landing](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/landing?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [WordPress-Ready Contact Form v.2.0WP - Beast-Blog.com](http://green-beast.com/blog/?page%5Fid=136&ref=chrismessina.me) ![WordPress-Ready Contact Form v.2.0WP - Beast-Blog.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/braviq/thumbnail/160) "This is the official page for the Secure and Accessible PHP Contact Form v.2.0WP for WordPress (versions 2.0 and later) created by Mike Jolley and Mike Cherim." Tags: [wordpress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me), [wordpress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me), [contactform](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/contactform?ref=chrismessina.me), [contact](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/contact?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Apple discontinues 23-inch Cinema Display | Macworld](http://www.macworld.com/article/136907/2008/11/display.html?lsrc=rss%5Fmain&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Apple discontinues 23-inch Cinema Display | Macworld](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/whichixocu/thumbnail/160) "Apple officially discontinued its 23-inch Cinema Display on Tuesday, making way for recently announced 24-inch LED Cinema." Tags: [apple](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/apple?ref=chrismessina.me), [displays](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/displays?ref=chrismessina.me), [hardware](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/hardware?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [New Media Requires New Thinking on Cultural Policy (Michael Geist)](http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/3506/135/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![New Media Requires New Thinking on Cultural Policy (Michael Geist)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/puchaxek/thumbnail/160) Great post on why net neutrality is an important economic — and cultural — issue. Tags: [newmedia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/newmedia?ref=chrismessina.me), [netneutrality](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/netneutrality?ref=chrismessina.me), [canada](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/canada?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Code Like a Pythonista: Idiomatic Python](http://python.net/~goodger/projects/pycon/2007/idiomatic/handout.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Code Like a Pythonista: Idiomatic Python](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/stafihuq/thumbnail/160) "In this interactive tutorial, we'll cover many essential Python idioms and techniques in depth, adding immediately useful tools to your belt." Tags: [programming](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/programming?ref=chrismessina.me), [python](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/python?ref=chrismessina.me), [programming](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/programming?ref=chrismessina.me), [development](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/development?ref=chrismessina.me), [howto](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/howto?ref=chrismessina.me), [tutorial](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tutorial?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [voiceofsandiego.org | San Diego's nonprofit source of daily news, opinion and commentary.](http://voiceofsandiego.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![voiceofsandiego.org | San Diego's nonprofit source of daily news, opinion and commentary.](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wichaka/thumbnail/160) Independent media FTW! Tags: [sandiego](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/sandiego?ref=chrismessina.me), [news](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/news?ref=chrismessina.me), [journalism](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/journalism?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [OAuth channel for WCF RESTful services - Pablo M. Cibraro (aka Cibrax)](http://weblogs.asp.net/cibrax/archive/2008/11/14/oauth-channel-for-wcf-restful-services.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me) ![OAuth channel for WCF RESTful services - Pablo M. Cibraro (aka Cibrax)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/staruxiko/thumbnail/160) "Alex Henderson (Aka Bittercoder) has written a pretty good OAuth library in .NET for implementing an OAuth consumer and service provider. The library is available here under a MIT license (do wherever you want with it), and it is very easy to use. Alex h Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [wcf](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wcf?ref=chrismessina.me), [rest](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/rest?ref=chrismessina.me), [.net](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/.net?ref=chrismessina.me), [security](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/security?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Cheap, Easy Audio Transcription with Mechanical Turk - Waxy.org](http://waxy.org/2008/09/audio%5Ftranscription%5Fwith%5Fmechanical%5Fturk/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Cheap, Easy Audio Transcription with Mechanical Turk - Waxy.org](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/frashuyoqiz/thumbnail/160) "The result: my 36-minute recording was transcribed while I slept, in less than three hours, for a grand total of $15.40\. This is a fraction of the cost/time of any other transcription service online, including the Turk-driven Casting Words, though you p Tags: [transcription](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/transcription?ref=chrismessina.me), [audio](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/audio?ref=chrismessina.me), [mechanicalturk](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mechanicalturk?ref=chrismessina.me), [turk](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/turk?ref=chrismessina.me), [howto](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/howto?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [LIFE photo archive hosted by Google](http://images.google.com/hosted/life?ref=chrismessina.me) ![LIFE photo archive hosted by Google](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/tixefevic/thumbnail/160) "Search millions of photographs from the LIFE photo archive, stretching from the 1750s to today. Most were never published and are now available for the first time through the joint work of LIFE and Google." Tags: [photography](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/photography?ref=chrismessina.me), [photos](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/photos?ref=chrismessina.me), [life](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/life?ref=chrismessina.me), [history](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/history?ref=chrismessina.me), [reference](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/reference?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Iconfactory : Freeware : Frenzic System](http://iconfactory.com/freeware/preview/fren?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Iconfactory : Freeware : Frenzic System](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/diseqa/thumbnail/160) "CandyBar system replacement set styled after Frenzic" Tags: [icons](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/icons?ref=chrismessina.me), [icontainer](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/icontainer?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [louiemantia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/louiemantia?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Bowtie Start Pack (MacThemes Forum)](http://macthemes2.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=16790844&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Bowtie Start Pack (MacThemes Forum)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/koshoroni/thumbnail/160) 11 themes for BowTie, the iTunes controller! Tags: [themes](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/themes?ref=chrismessina.me), [bowtie](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bowtie?ref=chrismessina.me), [itunes](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/itunes?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [TapExpense](http://tapexpense.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![TapExpense](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/tremoshej/thumbnail/160) "TapExpense helps you keep a record of daily expenses. It is designed for mobile users and international travelers." Tags: [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [iphoneapp](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphoneapp?ref=chrismessina.me), [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [expenses](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/expenses?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Agenda | Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team](http://change.gov/agenda?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Agenda | Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/lixiqord/thumbnail/160) "President-elect Obama and Vice President-elect Biden have developed innovative approaches to challenge the status quo in Washington and to bring about the kind of change America needs. The Obama Administration has a comprehensive and detailed policy age Tags: [obama](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/obama?ref=chrismessina.me), [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [agenda](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/agenda?ref=chrismessina.me), [government](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/government?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [The Results of Project Icon (WordPress Blog)](http://wordpress.org/development/2008/11/the-results-of-project-icon/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![The Results of Project Icon (WordPress Blog)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/brovothek/thumbnail/160) The results of the survey to determine the icons for WordPress 2.7. Tags: [wordpress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me), [icons](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/icons?ref=chrismessina.me), [wordpress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [usability](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/usability?ref=chrismessina.me), [interface](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/interface?ref=chrismessina.me), [contest](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/contest?ref=chrismessina.me), [icon](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/icon?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Deadline: Good things come to those who plan](http://deadlineapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Deadline: Good things come to those who plan](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/trichogix/thumbnail/160) "Deadline is the simplest calendar ever made. You write in plain English, and it will set up a reminder for you. Once your appointments have been entered, you can quickly search through them based on words or dates." Tags: [calendar](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/calendar?ref=chrismessina.me), [productivity](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/productivity?ref=chrismessina.me), [reminder](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/reminder?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Iterasi unveils bookmarklet, glimpse into potential for Web archive Âť Silicon Florist](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/11/19/iterasi-unveils-bookmarklet-glimpse-into-potential-for-web-archive/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Iterasi unveils bookmarklet, glimpse into potential for Web archive Âť Silicon Florist](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/hichatac/thumbnail/160) Iterasi now offers saving of web pages using a bookmarklet! Tags: [iterasi](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iterasi?ref=chrismessina.me), [bookmarklet](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bookmarklet?ref=chrismessina.me), [bookmarking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bookmarking?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Spice up your inbox with colors and themes (Official Gmail Blog)](http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/spice-up-your-inbox-with-colors-and.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Spice up your inbox with colors and themes (Official Gmail Blog)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/jehaxovird/thumbnail/160) Gmail now supports themes...! Hot! Tags: [gmail](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gmail?ref=chrismessina.me), [themes](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/themes?ref=chrismessina.me), [google](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/google?ref=chrismessina.me), [theme](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/theme?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [goodsense - A green advertising network.](http://getgoodsense.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![goodsense - A green advertising network.](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/creyevapu/thumbnail/160) "HELLO, WE ARE GOODSENSE. WE ARE THE PREMIER AD NETWORK FOR REACHING CONSUMERS WHO CARE ABOUT LIVING GREEN, THE ENVIRONMENT, AND SUSTAINABILITY. We provide advertisers with the opportunity to reach influential green consumers through well-vetted and relev Tags: [ads](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ads?ref=chrismessina.me), [advertising](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/advertising?ref=chrismessina.me), [adnetwork](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/adnetwork?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [OpenCongress.org: What’s Happening In Congress? at Ryan Is Hungry](http://ryanishungry.com/2008/11/02/opencongressorg-whats-happening-in-congress/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![OpenCongress.org: What’s Happening In Congress? at Ryan Is Hungry](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/friwurd/thumbnail/160) "A screencast for OpenCongress.org, an open source, collaborative website that helps citizens keep track of everything happening in Congress." Tags: [opencongress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opencongress?ref=chrismessina.me), [government](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/government?ref=chrismessina.me), [transparency](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/transparency?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Adobe Labs - Alchemy](http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/alchemy/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Adobe Labs - Alchemy](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/pristovachu/thumbnail/160) Looks like Flash may go open source after all. About time. Tags: [flash](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/flash?ref=chrismessina.me), [adobe](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/adobe?ref=chrismessina.me), [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Google Analytics Tracking for Adobe Flash - Google Analytics Tracking Code - Google Code](http://code.google.com/apis/analytics/docs/flashTrackingIntro.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Google Analytics Tracking for Adobe Flash - Google Analytics Tracking Code - Google Code](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/fozodem/thumbnail/160) The Google Analytics Tracking for Adobe Flash component makes it easy for you to implement Google Analytics in your Flash-driven content. This component contains all of the functionality of the Google Analytics Javascript code, and is 100% compatible with Tags: [adobe](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/adobe?ref=chrismessina.me), [google](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/google?ref=chrismessina.me), [flash](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/flash?ref=chrismessina.me), [analytics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/analytics?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Heekya | What's your story?](http://www.heekya.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Heekya | What's your story?](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/xostethehah/thumbnail/160) "Heekya is a social storytelling platform that will change the way you create, share, and discover stories. Heekya allows you to easily integrate photos, videos, audio and text to create interactive stories that can be shared with family, friends, and the Tags: [storytelling](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/storytelling?ref=chrismessina.me), [web2.0](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/web2.0?ref=chrismessina.me), [socialnetworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/socialnetworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [writing](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/writing?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Why Firefox Won't Survive Chrome (Microsoft Watch)](http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/web%5Fservices%5Fbrowser/why%5Ffirefox%5Fwont%5Fsurvive%5Fchrome.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Why Firefox Won't Survive Chrome (Microsoft Watch)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/hiyehird/thumbnail/160) "News Commentary. It's not a question of if but when Google will cut off Mozilla's oxygen supply." Tags: [chrome](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/chrome?ref=chrismessina.me), [mozilla](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mozilla?ref=chrismessina.me), [firefox](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/firefox?ref=chrismessina.me), [browsers](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/browsers?ref=chrismessina.me), [microsoft](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/microsoft?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Yahoo! OpenID limited testing for Simple Registration support (Yahoo! Developer Network Blog)](http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2008/11/yahoo%5Fopenid%5Ftest.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Yahoo! OpenID limited testing for Simple Registration support (Yahoo! Developer Network Blog)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/capegin/thumbnail/160) "Today, we are announcing the start of a limited test of the Simple Registration extension for the Yahoo! OpenID service. The Simple Registration extension allows OpenID RPs to request user profile data from the OpenID provider. Yahoo! will be providing Y Tags: [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me), [sreg](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/sreg?ref=chrismessina.me), [yahoo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yahoo?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [YDN Forums -> OpenID General Discussion](http://developer.yahoo.net/forum/index.php?showforum=35&ref=chrismessina.me) ![](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/twicexubu/thumbnail/160) OpenID General Discussion"/> This is the place to give feedback and discuss Yahoo! OpenID Tags: [yahoo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yahoo?ref=chrismessina.me), [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me), [forum](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/forum?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [The Faces of Mechanical Turk - Waxy.org](http://waxy.org/2008/11/the%5Ffaces%5Fof%5Fmechanical%5Fturk/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![The Faces of Mechanical Turk - Waxy.org](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/xoscepik/thumbnail/160) "Last week, I started a new Turk experiment to answer two questions: what do these people look like, and how much does it cost for someone to reveal their face?" Tags: [mechanicalturk](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mechanicalturk?ref=chrismessina.me), [amazon](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/amazon?ref=chrismessina.me), [research](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/research?ref=chrismessina.me), [mturk](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mturk?ref=chrismessina.me), [andybaio](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/andybaio?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Social Patterns Wiki](http://www.designingsocialinterfaces.com/patterns.wiki/index.php?title=Main%5FPage&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Social Patterns Wiki](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/doscuce/thumbnail/160) "The Designing Social Interfaces patterns wiki is a companion site to the book that Christian Crumlish and Erin Malone are currently writing for O'Reilly Media. We decided to share the patterns as we write the patterns and the book to get community feedb Tags: [patterns](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/patterns?ref=chrismessina.me), [usability](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/usability?ref=chrismessina.me), [socialsoftware](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/socialsoftware?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [ux](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ux?ref=chrismessina.me), [designpatterns](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/designpatterns?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Track Your Push-ups With GiveMe27](http://www.giveme27.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Track Your Push-ups With GiveMe27](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/sciqixustu/thumbnail/160) Track Your Push-ups with GiveMe27 Do your push-ups. Track it. Get stronger. Tags: [pushups](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/pushups?ref=chrismessina.me), [selftracking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/selftracking?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Cyberscams Befriend Social Networks - BusinessWeek](http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/nov2008/tc20081119%5F974324.htm?chan=top+news%5Ftop+news+index+-+temp%5Fnews+%2B+analysis&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Cyberscams Befriend Social Networks - BusinessWeek](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/xogay/thumbnail/160) "Now fraudsters may log on as your "friend." How Facebook, LinkedIn, and other social networking sites are fighting a rise in scams" Tags: [security](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/security?ref=chrismessina.me), [socialnetworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/socialnetworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [spy :: visualizes the conversations on Twitter, Friendfeed, Flickr, Blogs and more.](http://spy.appspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![spy :: visualizes the conversations on Twitter, Friendfeed, Flickr, Blogs and more.](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/gopidiza/thumbnail/160) "spy can listen in on the social media conversations you're interested in. What do you want to listen for?" Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [spy](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/spy?ref=chrismessina.me), [socialnetworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/socialnetworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [aggregator](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/aggregator?ref=chrismessina.me), [search](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/search?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [CalorieKing - Diet and weight loss. Calorie Counter and more](http://www.calorieking.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![CalorieKing - Diet and weight loss. Calorie Counter and more](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/fomascin/thumbnail/160) "Control your weight or your weight will control you. At CalorieKing, our mission is to put you in charge of your weight so you can enjoy the life you choose." Tags: [diet](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/diet?ref=chrismessina.me), [health](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/health?ref=chrismessina.me), [food](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/food?ref=chrismessina.me), [nutrition](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/nutrition?ref=chrismessina.me), [calories](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/calories?ref=chrismessina.me), [fitness](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fitness?ref=chrismessina.me), [weightloss](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/weightloss?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Workout Programs, Exercise Routines, and Food Diary | Gyminee](http://www.gyminee.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Workout Programs, Exercise Routines, and Food Diary | Gyminee](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cipafa/thumbnail/160) "Gyminee is the premier fitness social network for detailed tracking, online accountability, and motivation. Whether you are trying to lose weight or get fit, it's time to start taking your fitness seriously." Tags: [fitness](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fitness?ref=chrismessina.me), [health](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/health?ref=chrismessina.me), [workout](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/workout?ref=chrismessina.me), [exercise](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/exercise?ref=chrismessina.me), [tracking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tracking?ref=chrismessina.me), [selftracking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/selftracking?ref=chrismessina.me), [diet](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/diet?ref=chrismessina.me), [training](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/training?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [introPLAY: Train. Compete. Achieve. PLAY together.](https://players.introplay.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![introPLAY: Train. Compete. Achieve. PLAY together.](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/slojaleme/thumbnail/160) "introPLAY is an Athletic Performance Network where athletes train together as part of the introPLAY community. introPLAY is for both casual and committed athletes, from the weekend warrior trying to shed a few pounds to the experienced competitor trainin Tags: [fitness](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fitness?ref=chrismessina.me), [competition](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/competition?ref=chrismessina.me), [training](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/training?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Getting Things Done with "Things": a Review by Erik Hanberg | GTD Times](http://www.gtdtimes.com/2008/11/18/getting-things-done-with-things-a-review-by-erik-hanberg/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/ciwajoha/thumbnail/160) Things.app is getting a lot of attention -- deservedly so. Another decent review, with some suggestions for improvements. Tags: [mac](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mac?ref=chrismessina.me), [gtd](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gtd?ref=chrismessina.me), [things.app](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/things.app?ref=chrismessina.me), [review](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/review?ref=chrismessina.me), [software](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/software?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [AddressBookSync | Facebook Picture Synchronization with OS X Address Book](http://danauclair.com/addressbooksync/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![AddressBookSync | Facebook Picture Synchronization with OS X Address Book](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/teshowexa/thumbnail/160) "AddressBookSync is a Mac OS X application to download Facebook profile pictures to Address Book cards. This is a handy tool to keep your contacts' pictures updated if you have numerous Facebook friends in your Mac OS X Address Book." Tags: [facebook](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/facebook?ref=chrismessina.me), [avatars](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/avatars?ref=chrismessina.me), [photos](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/photos?ref=chrismessina.me), [macosx](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/macosx?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [The Age of Conversation 2: Why Don't They Get It? by Gavin Heaton, Drew McLellan (Book) in Business & Economics](http://www.lulu.com/content/4432876?ref=chrismessina.me) ![The Age of Conversation 2: Why Don't They Get It? by Gavin Heaton, Drew McLellan (Book) in Business & Economics](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/kushigot/thumbnail/160) "This book is a daring challenge to the business community. Gone are the top-down, command and control messages that held sway through the 20th Century. In are a raft of new techniques that start with listening, responding and action that set the scene fo Tags: [book](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/book?ref=chrismessina.me), [blogging](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/blogging?ref=chrismessina.me), [ideas](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ideas?ref=chrismessina.me), [inspiration](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/inspiration?ref=chrismessina.me), [drewmclellan](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/drewmclellan?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [24C3: Building a Hacker Space](http://events.ccc.de/congress/2007/Fahrplan/events/2133.en.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![24C3: Building a Hacker Space](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/slapodazird/thumbnail/160) "With the help of Design Patterns we will show you how to set up your own Hacker Space. The Design Patterns are based on more than 10 years of experience with setting up and running a Hacker Space." Tags: [hacker](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/hacker?ref=chrismessina.me), [coworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/coworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [workspace](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/workspace?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Sni.ps | Know The Source](http://sni.ps/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Sni.ps | Know The Source](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/hideqasa/thumbnail/160) "With sni.ps, content capture and attribution as easy as click and embed. Sni.ps tracks the original source of content, whether that’s a quote, a photo, video or a flash object. You respect your sources while you share content with your readers." Tags: [copyright](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/copyright?ref=chrismessina.me), [creativecommons](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/creativecommons?ref=chrismessina.me), [rel-license](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/rel-license?ref=chrismessina.me), [licensing](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/licensing?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [RunningAHEAD - Achieving goals through better information](http://www.runningahead.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![RunningAHEAD - Achieving goals through better information](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/vijemaze/thumbnail/160) "RunningAHEAD offers a collection of free tools to help you train effectively. There is more to a training log than just entering statistics. It should be an integral part of your training, whether you are new to running or are a seasoned pro. At a minimu Tags: [running](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/running?ref=chrismessina.me), [fitness](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fitness?ref=chrismessina.me), [exercise](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/exercise?ref=chrismessina.me), [training](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/training?ref=chrismessina.me), [selftracking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/selftracking?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [RunThere | Go!](http://runthere.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![RunThere | Go!](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/pamithech/thumbnail/160) A running community. Tags: [running](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/running?ref=chrismessina.me), [fitness](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fitness?ref=chrismessina.me), [exercise](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/exercise?ref=chrismessina.me), [googlemaps](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/googlemaps?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [traineo | Fitness & Weight Loss Community](http://www.traineo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![traineo | Fitness & Weight Loss Community](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/ziziyosta/thumbnail/160) Tags: [fitness](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fitness?ref=chrismessina.me), [training](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/training?ref=chrismessina.me), [weight](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/weight?ref=chrismessina.me), [exercise](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/exercise?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Yahoo Improves Its OpenID Support - Webmonkey](http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/Yahoo%5FImproves%5FIts%5FOpenID%5FSupport?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Yahoo Improves Its OpenID Support - Webmonkey](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/vruxotha/thumbnail/160) "Yahoo continues to make strides to improve its OpenID implementation. Thursday it announced limited testing for Simple Registration, which supplies profile data once a user logs in with their Yahoo OpenID." Tags: [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me), [sreg](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/sreg?ref=chrismessina.me), [yahoo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yahoo?ref=chrismessina.me), [identity](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/identity?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Go Go Gadget OAuth Support - Webmonkey](http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/Go%5FGo%5FGadget%5FOAuth%5FSupport?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Go Go Gadget OAuth Support - Webmonkey](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/gelaxila/thumbnail/160) "Passwords are a little bit more secure now that Google added OAuth support to its iGoogle Gadgets. Developers can now use their gadgets to easily grab data from OAuth-enabled APIs. Using OAuth, users do not have to give their passwords to developers. Ins Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [myspace](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/myspace?ref=chrismessina.me), [opensocial](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensocial?ref=chrismessina.me), [igoogle](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/igoogle?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [PdbTextMateSupport 0.3](http://pypi.python.org/pypi/PdbTextMateSupport/0.3?ref=chrismessina.me) ![PdbTextMateSupport 0.3](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/clisizatew/thumbnail/160) "Display source code in TextMate while debugging with pdb. This module is used to hook up pdb, the python debugger, with TextMate, an advanced text and programming editor for Mac OS, enabling it to display the debugged source code during a pdb session." Tags: [python](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/python?ref=chrismessina.me), [textmate](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/textmate?ref=chrismessina.me), [pdb](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/pdb?ref=chrismessina.me), [debugging](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/debugging?ref=chrismessina.me), [osx](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/osx?ref=chrismessina.me), [programming](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/programming?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [NoiseBridge](https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/NoiseBridge?ref=chrismessina.me) ![NoiseBridge](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/bevuzid/thumbnail/160) "Noisebridge is an infrastructure provider for technical-creative projects, collaboratively run by its members. We are incorporated as a non-profit educational corporation for public benefit." Tags: [hacking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/hacking?ref=chrismessina.me), [hacklab](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/hacklab?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Charlie Rose - A conversation with Lawrence Lessig](http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/9618?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Charlie Rose - A conversation with Lawrence Lessig](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/codestuco/thumbnail/160) "A conversation with Lawrence Lessig about his book "Remix", and his former colleague Barack Obama." Tags: [copyright](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/copyright?ref=chrismessina.me), [lessig](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/lessig?ref=chrismessina.me), [interview](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/interview?ref=chrismessina.me), [lawrencelessig](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/lawrencelessig?ref=chrismessina.me), [law](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/law?ref=chrismessina.me), [culture](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/culture?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Lifestreaming in Obamaland | Outside the Lines - CNET News](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13953%5F3-10106031-80.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Lifestreaming in Obamaland | Outside the Lines - CNET News](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/pronoqowesh/thumbnail/160) Personally, I'm excited about a lifecasting president... but on the other hand, does it make someone who is supposed to be superhuman somehow more like us? Is that what the Palin phenomenon was all about? And is that really a good thing? Tags: [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [lifestreaming](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/lifestreaming?ref=chrismessina.me), [obama](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/obama?ref=chrismessina.me), [government](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/government?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [antrepo — Modul 300 dpi Pixel Based Font](http://www.antreposhop.com/product/modul-300-dpi-font?ref=chrismessina.me) ![antrepo — Modul 300 dpi Pixel Based Font](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/trostexast/thumbnail/160) "Modul 300 dpi Base was created for graduate thesis. This thesis presents font designs which are capable of covering what is demanded by the "digital age" and discusses the issues that need to be considered regarding the applications within this new age." Tags: [font](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/font?ref=chrismessina.me), [type](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/type?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Keywordfinder - find the right keywords to increase search traffic and help your SEO](http://keywordfinder.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Keywordfinder - find the right keywords to increase search traffic and help your SEO](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/jaxoma/thumbnail/160) "Keywordfinder helps you discover very successful keywords for any topic you enter. This allows you to write page copy that makes it much easier for people on the web to find your content." Tags: [keywords](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/keywords?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Yahoo! Browser Plus Opening Up](http://mashable.com/2008/11/18/browserplus-opensource/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Yahoo! Browser Plus Opening Up](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/honosaveth/thumbnail/160) "Yahoo BrowserPlus, the technology platform from Yahoo that lets desktop and web applications interact, is going open source. The company announced the plans today on its blog, indicating they hope the move “will allow developers to rapidly extend the pla Tags: [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [yahoo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yahoo?ref=chrismessina.me), [browserplus](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/browserplus?ref=chrismessina.me), [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [browsers](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/browsers?ref=chrismessina.me), [webstandards](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/webstandards?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Open Sourcing BrowserPlus: Q & A with Lloyd Hilaiel (Yahoo! Developer Network Blog)](http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2008/11/open%5Fbrowserplus.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Open Sourcing BrowserPlus: Q & A with Lloyd Hilaiel (Yahoo! Developer Network Blog)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/pohiwaweq/thumbnail/160) "Lloyd Hilaiel from Yahoo's BrowserPlus team answers some questions about how the project got started, what kept it alive, and how today we've announced our intent to open source this original technology, enabling open development on a platform for in-bro Tags: [yahoo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yahoo?ref=chrismessina.me), [browserplus](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/browserplus?ref=chrismessina.me), [webdevelopment](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/webdevelopment?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Sunlight Foundation's Fortune 535](http://fortune535.sunlightprojects.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Sunlight Foundation's Fortune 535](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/galugirih/thumbnail/160) Just how much ARE our Congresspeople worth? Apparently, quite a lot. Tags: [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [congress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/congress?ref=chrismessina.me), [government](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/government?ref=chrismessina.me), [money](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/money?ref=chrismessina.me), [sunlightfoundation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/sunlightfoundation?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Obama CTO - Help set the priorities for the Obama administration](http://www.obamacto.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Obama CTO - Help set the priorities for the Obama administration](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/vuveno/thumbnail/160) "Barack Obama promised to use technology to make it easier for citizens to participate in government. Our goal is to provide our country's first Chief Technology Officer (CTO) with one example of how this might work." Tags: [obama](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/obama?ref=chrismessina.me), [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [web2.0](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/web2.0?ref=chrismessina.me), [technology](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/technology?ref=chrismessina.me), [voting](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/voting?ref=chrismessina.me), [government](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/government?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Politics4all - Political Social Networking, Campaigning, Debates, Blogging, Legislative Bill Tracking](http://www.politics4all.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Politics4all - Political Social Networking, Campaigning, Debates, Blogging, Legislative Bill Tracking](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/lokochudo/thumbnail/160) "We are a socially-networked platform that allows citizens, candidates, citizens, and groups to connect and collaborate on every level of the political spectrum." Tags: [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [socialnetwork](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/socialnetwork?ref=chrismessina.me), [campaign](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/campaign?ref=chrismessina.me), [organizing](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/organizing?ref=chrismessina.me), [cms](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/cms?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Internet for Everyone: Internet For Everyone](http://internetforeveryone.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Internet for Everyone: Internet For Everyone](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/slexustif/thumbnail/160) InternetforEveryone.org is a national coalition of individuals, public interest and industry groups who are working together to see that the Internet continues to drive free speech, economic growth and prosperity in America. A high-speed Internet connecti Tags: [internet](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/internet?ref=chrismessina.me), [activism](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/activism?ref=chrismessina.me), [broadband](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/broadband?ref=chrismessina.me), [access](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/access?ref=chrismessina.me), [organization](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/organization?ref=chrismessina.me), [digitaldivide](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/digitaldivide?ref=chrismessina.me), [advocacy](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/advocacy?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Coding In Paradise: Fixing the Web, Part I](http://codinginparadise.org/weblog/2008/11/fixing-web-part-i.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Coding In Paradise: Fixing the Web, Part I](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/ropageguj/thumbnail/160) "This blog post is part of a new, semi-regular series called Fixing the Web. The goal is to highlight these issues, identify potential solutions, and have a dialogue. I don't claim to have the answers for the situation we are in. However, I do know this - Tags: [standards](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/standards?ref=chrismessina.me), [javascript](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/javascript?ref=chrismessina.me), [webstandards](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/webstandards?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [ecommr: a collection of e-commerce interface and design elements](http://www.ecommr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![ecommr: a collection of e-commerce interface and design elements](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/pronapemo/thumbnail/160) "a collection of e-commerce interface and design elements" Tags: [ecommerce](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ecommerce?ref=chrismessina.me), [webdesign](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/webdesign?ref=chrismessina.me), [ui](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ui?ref=chrismessina.me), [patterns](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/patterns?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [The Days Are Numbered: Fatal US car collisions, 2005-2007](http://www.thedaysarenumbered.com/2008/11/fatal-us-car-collisions-2005-2007.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![The Days Are Numbered: Fatal US car collisions, 2005-2007](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/broshiford/thumbnail/160) Fascinating visualization maps of car collisions in 2005-2007\. Consider that 25-35% of accidents occur where a driver is over the legal limit... WOW. Tags: [collisions](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/collisions?ref=chrismessina.me), [dot](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/dot?ref=chrismessina.me), [transportation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/transportation?ref=chrismessina.me), [driving](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/driving?ref=chrismessina.me), [crashes](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/crashes?ref=chrismessina.me), [visualization](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/visualization?ref=chrismessina.me), [graphing](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/graphing?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [social bookmarking for images on vi.sualize.us](http://vi.sualize.us/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![social bookmarking for images on vi.sualize.us](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/gridapicab/thumbnail/160) "Bookmark the pictures you like around the web." Tags: [images](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/images?ref=chrismessina.me), [bookmarking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bookmarking?ref=chrismessina.me), [bookmarks](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me), [photo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/photo?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Open Source Food: Recipes, Food Photos & Discussion](http://www.opensourcefood.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Open Source Food: Recipes, Food Photos & Discussion](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/twuxuchezi/thumbnail/160) "Amazing Recipes. Delicious Food. Beautiful Photography. Created and rated by you and fellow food-lovers from all over the world. Open Source Food is your gastronomic hub where every visit will bring inspiration and a rumbling belly." Tags: [food](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/food?ref=chrismessina.me), [recipes](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/recipes?ref=chrismessina.me), [cooking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/cooking?ref=chrismessina.me), [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [community](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/community?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [The Wrestler (movie trailer)](http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox%5Fsearchlight/thewrestler/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![The Wrestler (movie trailer)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/stimileji/thumbnail/160) "Director Darren Aronofsky presents a powerful portrait of a battered dreamer, who despite himself and the odds stacked against him, lives to be a hero once again in the only place he considers home – inside the ring. THE WRESTLER had its North American p Tags: [trailer](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/trailer?ref=chrismessina.me), [wrestler](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wrestler?ref=chrismessina.me), [film](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/film?ref=chrismessina.me), [movie](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/movie?ref=chrismessina.me), [darrenaronofsky](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/darrenaronofsky?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Yahoo Pipes Training: A 2 Minute Yahoo Pipes Demo at Fast Wonder Blog: Consulting, Online Communities, and Social Media](http://fastwonderblog.com/2008/11/24/yahoo-pipes-training-a-2-minute-yahoo-pipes-demo/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Yahoo Pipes Training: A 2 Minute Yahoo Pipes Demo at Fast Wonder Blog: Consulting, Online Communities, and Social Media](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wiladird/thumbnail/160) "This Yahoo Pipes demo will help you get started with Yahoo Pipes and show you what you need to know to create a basic Pipe. We use filtering for this example, since Yahoo Pipes is great at taking feeds and filtering to display only the posts that match ( Tags: [yahoo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yahoo?ref=chrismessina.me), [yahoopipes](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yahoopipes?ref=chrismessina.me), [tutorial](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tutorial?ref=chrismessina.me), [howto](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/howto?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Amazon Web Services (AWS) Hosted Public Data Sets](http://aws.amazon.com/publicdatasets/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Amazon Web Services (AWS) Hosted Public Data Sets](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/pukichunog/thumbnail/160) "AWS Hosted Public Data Sets provide a convenient way to share, access, and use public data within your Amazon EC2 environment. Select public data sets are hosted on AWS for free as an Amazon EBS snapshot. Any Amazon EC2 customer can access this data by c Tags: [data](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/data?ref=chrismessina.me), [amazon](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/amazon?ref=chrismessina.me), [ec2](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ec2?ref=chrismessina.me), [science](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/science?ref=chrismessina.me), [research](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/research?ref=chrismessina.me), [datasets](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/datasets?ref=chrismessina.me), [api](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/api?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Obama testing ways to use Internet to govern](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/24/MN7214842D.DTL&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Obama testing ways to use Internet to govern](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/nuchatha/thumbnail/160) Just how will Obama use the internet to govern? Tags: [obama](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/obama?ref=chrismessina.me), [youtube](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/youtube?ref=chrismessina.me), [internet](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/internet?ref=chrismessina.me), [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [government](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/government?ref=chrismessina.me), [transparency](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/transparency?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [keyboardr](http://keyboardr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![keyboardr](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/clajoqave/thumbnail/160) Wow, this is a FAST search engine! Tags: [search](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/search?ref=chrismessina.me), [tools](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tools?ref=chrismessina.me), [searchengine](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/searchengine?ref=chrismessina.me), [keyboard](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/keyboard?ref=chrismessina.me), [useful](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/useful?ref=chrismessina.me), [tool](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tool?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Twitter Blog: Meet Rael Dornfest](http://blog.twitter.com/2008/11/meet-rael-dornfest.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Twitter Blog: Meet Rael Dornfest](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/qustoqath/thumbnail/160) Rael joins Twitter, shuttering I Want Sandy and Stikkit. Interesting things should come of this, and no doubt already have. Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [raeldornfest](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/raeldornfest?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Few women at top in Silicon Valley](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/24/BULF149J4V.DTL&type=tech&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Few women at top in Silicon Valley](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wrosuguc/thumbnail/160) "Women in the top rungs of California's major corporations are a rare breed. According to a UC Davis survey, women comprised just 11 percent of directors and senior executives in the state's 400 largest public companies. Guess which California county rank Tags: [women](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/women?ref=chrismessina.me), [technology](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/technology?ref=chrismessina.me), [diversity](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/diversity?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Venezuela: Following the Local Elections Online (Global Voices Online)](http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/11/23/venezuela-following-the-local-elections-online/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Venezuela: Following the Local Elections Online (Global Voices Online)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/juhathi/thumbnail/160) "Today Venezuela is taking part in elections for mayors and governors. These elections will paint the political map between States and Municipalities aligned with President Hugo ChĂĄvez or not. These results depends largely on ChĂĄvez' popularity and can de Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [hashtags](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/hashtags?ref=chrismessina.me), [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [venezuela](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/venezuela?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Designing Social Interfaces - The Book](http://www.designingsocialinterfaces.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Designing Social Interfaces - The Book](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/zuscaxasot/thumbnail/160) "This book presents a family of social web design principles and interaction patterns that we have observed and codified, thus capturing user-experience best practices and emerging social web customs for web 2.0 practitioners." Tags: [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [interface](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/interface?ref=chrismessina.me), [usability](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/usability?ref=chrismessina.me), [ux](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ux?ref=chrismessina.me), [wiki](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wiki?ref=chrismessina.me), [ui](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ui?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Treating URL Protocol Schemes as Cruft (Daring Fireball)](http://daringfireball.net/2008/11/treating%5Furl%5Fprotocol%5Fschemes%5Fas%5Fcruft?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Treating URL Protocol Schemes as Cruft (Daring Fireball)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/shacheraqach/thumbnail/160) I had meant to mention this before, but it has pretty significant ramifications. What if browsers no longer needed "http" or "https"? What if they simply stopped showing the protocol? Tags: [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [apple](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/apple?ref=chrismessina.me), [url](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/url?ref=chrismessina.me), [interface](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/interface?ref=chrismessina.me), [ui](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ui?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Iconfactory Thanksgiving 2008](http://iconfactory.com/freeware/preview/tg08?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Iconfactory Thanksgiving 2008](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/craqitilost/thumbnail/160) "Thanksgiving icons from the whole factory." Tags: [icons](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/icons?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [iconfactory](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iconfactory?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [TweetsGiving](http://tweetsgiving.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![TweetsGiving](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/bostaluyi/thumbnail/160) "A Twitter celebration of gratitude and giving to demonstrate the power of the social web by raising $10,000 in 48 hours to build a classroom in Tanzania." Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [charity](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/charity?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [CloudContacts - Make Your Business Cards Work For You](http://cloudcontacts.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![CloudContacts - Make Your Business Cards Work For You](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/rashime/thumbnail/160) For their sake, I hope they support Portable Contacts. They'd be foolish not to. Tags: [networking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/networking?ref=chrismessina.me), [productivity](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/productivity?ref=chrismessina.me), [contacts](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/contacts?ref=chrismessina.me), [plaxo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/plaxo?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Apple posts "black friday" teaser, doesn't divulge deals - The Unofficial Apple Weblog (TUAW)](http://www.tuaw.com/2008/11/25/apple-posts-black-friday-teaser-doesnt-divulge-deals/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/drerohost/thumbnail/160) "Today, visitors to Apple's online store were greeted with an interesting teaser. "Lots of gifts, 1 day not to miss," Apple boasts on their page regarding the after-Thanksgiving sale. According to the details Apple posted, they will not be revealing their Tags: [apple](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/apple?ref=chrismessina.me), [blackfriday](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/blackfriday?ref=chrismessina.me), [shopping](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/shopping?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [koornk](http://koornk.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![koornk](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/trichoboy/thumbnail/160) "koornk is your personal shouting place that lets you stay in touch with your friends via short, quick messages. It works the other way too. And all you have to do is tell your friends (and the world) what are you doing at the moment." Tags: [microblogging](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/microblogging?ref=chrismessina.me), [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [microblog](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/microblog?ref=chrismessina.me), [socialnetworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/socialnetworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Vladstudio Christmas wallpaper pack](http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/icons%5Fscreensavers/vladstudiochristmaswallpaperpack%5Fvladstudio.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Vladstudio Christmas wallpaper pack](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/yetovetu/thumbnail/160) "Vladstudio designs unique artworks and photo manipulations in wallpaper format. Christmas Wallpaper Pack includes 25 wallpapers designed for 1440 x 900 screens." Tags: [wallpaper](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wallpaper?ref=chrismessina.me), [desktops](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/desktops?ref=chrismessina.me), [vladstudio](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/vladstudio?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Mr. Tweet -> Your Personal Networking Assistant!](http://mrtweet.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/jodefege/thumbnail/160) Your Personal Networking Assistant!"/> "Mr. Tweet looks through your extended network to help you build effective relationships on Twitter." Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [socialnetworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/socialnetworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [web2.0](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/web2.0?ref=chrismessina.me), [microblogging](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/microblogging?ref=chrismessina.me), [recommendations](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/recommendations?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [You Gotta Try Mr. Tweet](http://mashable.com/2008/11/26/mr-tweet/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![You Gotta Try Mr. Tweet](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cremeduxep/thumbnail/160) "Last night I happened across Mr. Tweet, a stealth startup that’s growing quickly. The site bills itself as your “personal assistant for Twitter,” but it functions as a very interesting version of Facebook’s friend finder." Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [microblogging](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/microblogging?ref=chrismessina.me), [recommendations](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/recommendations?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Red Rover](http://www.redroverhq.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Red Rover](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/grusechivop/thumbnail/160) "Red Rover is simple orientation software that delivers customized introductions all year long." Tags: [facebook](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/facebook?ref=chrismessina.me), [introductions](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/introductions?ref=chrismessina.me), [recommendations](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/recommendations?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Barack Obama | Change Is Coming](http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/changeiscoming/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Barack Obama | Change Is Coming](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/fruqofode/thumbnail/160) Tags: [barackobama](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/barackobama?ref=chrismessina.me), [change.gov](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/change.gov?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [InterfaceLIFT Wallpaper: Blue Bird](http://interfacelift.com/wallpaper%5Fbeta/details/1739/blue%5Fbird.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![InterfaceLIFT Wallpaper: Blue Bird](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/frushuqo/thumbnail/160) Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Fluid Project](http://www.fluidproject.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Fluid Project](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cushezashe/thumbnail/160) "Fluid is a community, a product, and a collection of tools created by an international team of partner academic institutions. Fluid is open source software that is focused on building commonly used pieces of functionality that easily integrate into exis Tags: [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Helvetireader](http://www.helvetireader.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Helvetireader](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/twashemexi/thumbnail/160) "Helvetireader is a userscript that pares down Google Reader to what I consider to be the essentials. It’s not going to suit how everyone uses Google Reader, so you can take the CSS and fiddle and personalise to your hearts content!" Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [What Motivates Participants to Engage in Online Communities at Fast Wonder Blog: Consulting, Online Communities, and Social Media](http://fastwonderblog.com/2008/11/26/what-motivates-participants-to-engage-in-online-communities/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![What Motivates Participants to Engage in Online Communities at Fast Wonder Blog: Consulting, Online Communities, and Social Media](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/kawusegish/thumbnail/160) "There are no easy answers to this question, and like many questions about community management, the answer depends on the situation; however, it boils down to a question of motivation. What motivates people to participate in your community?" Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [The End of Wall Street's Boom - National Business News - Portfolio.com](http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![The End of Wall Street's Boom - National Business News - Portfolio.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/gebakate/thumbnail/160) "The era that defined Wall Street is finally, officially over. Michael Lewis, who chronicled its excess in Liar’s Poker, returns to his old haunt to figure out what went wrong." Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Performance Improvements for Songbird 1.0](http://blog.songbirdnest.com/2008/11/26/performance-improvements-for-10/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Performance Improvements for Songbird 1.0](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cashurd/thumbnail/160) Interesting look at many of the performance improvements coming in Songbird 1.0 and the technical explanation of techniques used to achieve them. Tags: [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [It's Living Room 2.0 | The New York Observer](http://www.observer.com/2008/media/it-s-living-room-2-0?ref=chrismessina.me) ![It's Living Room 2.0 | The New York Observer](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cufuni/thumbnail/160) "Boxee—the open-source software that puts the Internet on your TV—is poised to revolutionize how and what we watch. Could it reunite the family, too?" Tags: [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [boxee](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/boxee?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Barack Obama's plans for the web (BBC News)](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7754485.stm?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Barack Obama's plans for the web (BBC News)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/grezelexeh/thumbnail/160) Tags: [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [ScreenToaster - Free online screen recorder : create screencast, tutorials and reviews in few clicks](http://www.screentoaster.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![ScreenToaster - Free online screen recorder : create screencast, tutorials and reviews in few clicks](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/haqavuc/thumbnail/160) Register & use it anywhere anytime Make screencasts / tutorials / demos / high-scores show-offs... Record your screen in one click No download. Compatible with Windows, Mac OS X, Linux. Share videos on the Internet in Flash Embed them on blogs/webpages Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Snowflake Seven](http://snowflake.seven.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-30 11:06:43 Regarding "Lifestreaming in Obamaland" > Personally, I’m excited about a lifecasting president… but on the other hand, does it make someone who is supposed to be superhuman somehow more like us? Is that what the Palin phenomenon was all about? And is that really a good thing? You wouldn't know it from the way our culture worships our glamorous leaders, but no, the President is not to be viewed as superhuman. That is what kings are for. Back in the age of monarchs, the royal blood line was thought of as coming from the gods/God (and in some cases they were considered the gods). Think [divine right of kings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine%5Fright%5Fof%5Fkings?ref=chrismessina.me). The whole point of the American presidency is to remove that false deification. We are to elect a peer from among us to lead for a limited time. And s/he does not pass this role down to their children or inherit it from their family line. They are definitively **not** superhuman. Sure we expect them to carry an Herculean burden, but it is a service to the rest of us to do so, not a result of their abnormal powers. So, yes, if life-casting starts reorienting our view of the President so that we recognize the office holder as a normal citizen—a peer—that is a good thing. **[links for 2008-11-30 « links and tweets](http://linklink.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/links-for-2008-11-30/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-30 16:33:47 \[...\] Bookmarks for November 10 to November 24 | FactoryCity "A bi-weekly collection of linky goodness." (tags: factoryjoe links linkblog mac wev wevdev tech) Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)links for 2008-11-26My 50 favorite design resourcesWebsites that cannot be missed on Webdesign and CSS53 CSS - Techniques to Make your Life as a Web Designer Easier \[...\] **[David A](http://heekya.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-30 18:04:29 Hey, It's david from heekya. Send me an e-mail to like@heekya.com and I'll put you on our beta list. Cheers, David ### Why YouTube should support Creative Commons now URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/why-youtube-should-support-creative-commons-now/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:08.000Z ![YouTube should support Creative Commons](http://img.skitch.com/20081122-1emht3px97bef2r6u8uku3k9y3.png) I was in Miami last week to meet with my fellow screeners from the [Knight News Challenge](http://newschallenge.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Jay Dedman](http://www.momentshowing.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Ryanne Hodson](http://ryanishungry.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), two vlogger friends whom I met through [coworking](http://coworking.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), started talking about content licensing, specifically as related to President-Elect Barack Obama's [weekly address](http://youtube.com/changeDotGov?ref=chrismessina.me), which, if things go according to plan, will continue to be [broadcast on YouTube](http://change.gov/newsroom/entry/your%5Fweekly%5Faddress%5Ffrom%5Fthe%5Fpresident%5Felect/?ref=chrismessina.me). The question came up: what license should Barack Obama use for his content? This, in turn, revealed a more fundamental question: why doesn't YouTube let you pick a license for the work that you upload (and must, given the terms of the site, own the rights to in the first place)? And if this omission isn't intentional (that is, no one decided *against* such a feature, it just hasn't bubbled up in the priority queue yet), then what can be done to facilitate the adoption of Creative Commons on the site? To date, few video sharing sites, save [Blip.tv](http://blip.tv/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Flickr](http://flickr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (even if they only deal with [*long photos*](http://www.flickr.com/help/video/?ref=chrismessina.me)), have actually embraced [Creative Commons](http://creativecommons.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) to any appreciable degree. Ironically, of all sites, YouTube seems the most likely candidate to adopt Creative Commons, given its rampant remix and republish culture (a culture which continues to vex major movie studies and other fastidious copyright owners). One might make the argument that, considering the history of illegally shared copyrighted material on YouTube, enabling Creative Commons would simply lead to people mislicensing work that they don't own... but I think that's a strawman argument that falls down in practice for a number of reasons: - First of all, all sites that enable the use of CC licenses offer the scheme as opt-in, defaulting to the traditional *all rights reserved* use of copyright. Enabling the *choice* of Creative Commons wouldn't necessarily affect this default. - Second, unauthorized sharing of content or digital media under any license is still illegal, whether the relicensed work is licensed under Creative Commons or copyright. - Third, YouTube, and any other media sharing site, bears *some* responsibility for the content published on their site, and, regardless of license, reserves the right to remove any material that fails to comply completely with its Terms of Service. - Fourth, the choice of a Creative Commons license is usually a deliberate act (going back to my first point) intended to convey an intention. The value of this intention — specifically, to enable the lawful reuse and republishing of content or media by others *without prior per-instance consent* — is a net positive to the health of a social ecosystem insomuch as this choice enables a specific form of freedom: that is, the freedom to give away one's work under certain, less-restrictive stipulations than the law allows, to aid in establishing a positive culture of sharing and creativity (as we've seen on [Flickr](http://flickr.com/creativecommons?ref=chrismessina.me), [SoundCloud](http://soundcloud.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [CC Mixter](http://ccmixter.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Preventing people from choosing a more liberal license conceivably restricts expression, insomuch as it restricts an "efficient, content-enriching value chain" from forming within a legal framework. Or, because all material is currently licensed under the most restrictive regime on YouTube, every re-use of a portion of media must therefore be licensed on a per-instance basis, considerably impeding the legal reuse of other people's work. . . . Now, I want to point out something interesting here... as specifically related to both this [moment](http://www.change.gov/page/s/yourstory?ref=chrismessina.me) in time and about government ownership of media. A recently [released report](http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-09-153R?ref=chrismessina.me) from the [GAO](http://www.gao.gov/?ref=chrismessina.me) on Energy Efficiency carried with it the following statement on copyright: > This is a work of the U.S. government and is not subject to copyright protection in the United States. The published product may be reproduced and distributed in its entirety without further permission from GAO. However, because this work may contain copyrighted images or other material, permission from the copyright holder may be necessary if you wish to reproduce this material separately. Though it can't simply put this work into the public domain because of the potential copyrighted materials embedded therein, this statement is about as close as you can get for an assembled work produced by the government. Now consider that Obama's weekly "radio address" is self-contained media, not contingent upon the use or reuse of any other copyrighted work. It bears considering what license (if any) should apply (keeping in mind that the government is funded by tax-payer dollars). If not the public domain, under what license should Obama's weekly addresses be shared? Certainly not *all rights reserved*! — unfortunately, YouTube offers no other option and thus, regardless of what Obama or the Change.gov folks would prefer, they're stuck with a single, monolithic licensing scheme. Interestingly, Google, YouTube's owner, has supported Creative Commons in the past, notably with their collaboration with Radiohead on the [House of Cards open source initiative](http://code.google.com/creative/radiohead/?ref=chrismessina.me) and with the [licensing of the Summer of Code documentation](http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Google%5FSummer%5Fof%5FCode?ref=chrismessina.me) (Yahoo has a similar project with [Flickr's hosting](http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/Flickr%5FTaps%5FUser%5FTags%5Fto%5FOrganize%5FLibrary%5Fof%5FCongress%5FImages?ref=chrismessina.me) of the [Library of Congress' photo archive](http://www.flickr.com/commons?ref=chrismessina.me) under a [liberal license](http://www.flickr.com/commons/usage/?ref=chrismessina.me)). I think that it's critical for YouTube to adopt the Creative Commons licensing scheme *now*, as Barack Obama begins to use the site for his weekly address, because of the powerful **signal** it would send, in the context of what I imagine will be a [steady increase](http://groups.google.com/group/openhouseproject/browse%5Fthread/thread/3badad92ecbb2ee4?hl=en&ref=chrismessina.me) and [importance](http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/readwriteweb/~3/dgC-m4tRd3Q/is%5Fyoutube%5Fthe%5Fnext%5Fgoogle.php?ref=chrismessina.me) of the [use of social media and web video by government agencies](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/24/MN7214842D.DTL&ref=chrismessina.me). [Don Norman](http://jnd.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) recently wrote an essay on the importance of social signifiers, and I think it underscores my point as to why this issue is pressing now. In contrast to the popular concept of "affordances" in design and design thinking, Norman [writes](http://jnd.org/dn.mss/signifiers%5Fnot%5Faffordances.html?ref=chrismessina.me): > A "signifier" is some sort of indicator, some signal in the physical or social world that can be interpreted meaningfully. Signifiers signify critical information, even if the signifier itself is an accidental byproduct of the world. Social signifiers are those that are relevant to social usages. Some social indicators simply are the unintended but informative result of the behavior of others. . . . I call any physically perceivable cue a signifier, whether it is incidental or deliberate. A social signifier is one that is either created or interpreted by people or society, signifying social activity or appropriate social behavior. The "appropriate social behavior", or behavior that I think Obama should model in his weekly podcasts is that of open and free licensing, introducing the world of YouTube viewers to an alternative form of licensing, that would enable them to better understand and *signal to others* their intent and desire to share, and to have their creative works reused, without the need to ask for permission first. For Obama media to be offered under a CC license ([with the licensed embedded in the media itself](http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Marking?ref=chrismessina.me)) would signal his seriousness about embracing openness, transparency and the nature of discourse on the web. It would also signify a shift towards the type of collaboration typified by Web 2.0 social sites, enabling a modern dialectic relationship between the citizenry and its government. I believe that now is the time for this change to happen, and for YouTube to prioritize the choice of Creative Commons licensing for the entire YouTube community. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[lkratz](http://www.jamendo.com/team/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-25 02:54:07 Hi, Just a quick note for CC music, just check jamendo : http://www.jamendo.com/en/creativecommons It's more than 100.000 tracks under various flavours of Creative Commons Licenses. Jamendo is often used as background music on youtube : http://www.youtube.com/results?search\_query=jamendo&search\_sort=video\_date\_uploaded and other video website: http://www.truveo.com/search.php?query=jamendo%20sort%3AmostRecent -- Laurent (Disclaimer, I work for Jamendo) **[jay dedman](http://ryanishungry.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-25 05:50:15 great way to state the case. I've never felt the folks at Youtube were necessarily against CC. Hopefully, it's just a matter of a random meeting between the right people at the cafeteria to decide, "hey, let's turn on CC today". Maybe this post will be the thing to initiate that conversation. **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-25 06:48:17 IANAL, but isn't the US government not legally allowed to hold copyrights? (Hence why, for example, everything from NASA is in the Public Domain.) Also, while I agree with you that YouTube should make licensing more obvious, you can certainly license YouTube items now by stating your license and providing a link in the description. Also, YouTube is kind of a horrible platform for free content, since it requires flash and provides no good way to download content in any format (and especially not in a free format). **[Markus Sandy](http://digitaldojo.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-25 07:53:40 Here here! I also think it's important that TV shows who use YT clips give proper attribution to the video creator. In particular, I think CSPAN should be making an effort to display proper credit for the folks who's video's they are showing. @stephen: I think you are basically correct, however I believe there are a few exceptions, such as postage stamps. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-25 08:20:09 [According to Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work%5Fof%5Fthe%5FUnited%5FStates%5FGovernment?ref=chrismessina.me), Stephen is mostly correct (the work is licensed under a "noncopyright"), except in the cases, as I mentioned, where other people's copyrighted work is used or where the government has purchased copyrighted works (and therefore owns the copyright). Since so much of government work is performed by contractors these days, I'm curious as to the license of such actors' work... in any case... As for the YouTube medium, I'm sympathetic to the argument about proprietary formats, but the reality is 1) Obama is already using YouTube (and few other video sites (save Hulu?) would likely be able to support such bandwidth/hosting needs) 2) the Flash format is the most widely supported mechanism for delivering video content *today*. Ideally this will change someday, but for now, we must deal with the web as it is, since it's being used in its "imperfect" state. Until we deal with the problem of rich-media delivery in non-proprietary formats, at least those who figure it out (or reshare someone else's YouTube content to their own account) should be able to do so given proper licensing. **[Peter Bihr](http://www.thewavingcat.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-25 08:42:43 Thanks for the great post - spot on! There's one point I'd like to add as it came up in a discussion at Web 2.0 Expo Europe recently: Besides the services implementing CC at all (preferably even as default), how can it be made easier for professionals to also use CC licensed content? Example: If you're a journalist working on a deadline and would like to use a CC licensed photo, it's often tough to get in touch with the author quickly enough to sort out the commercial aspects in time. Of course many authors put their stuff under a very liberal CC BY license, requiring only attribution and allowing freely for commercial use. The majority, though, it seems, goes for CC BY-NC-SA, allowing for non-commercial use, but not for commercial use. My guess is, though, that a lot of those authors wouldn't mind having their images used commercially and making some money on the side as long as they have control over who uses them. So my question to you: Would it make sense to implement (to phrase it overly simple) to implement a button on Flickr/YouTube/Blip etc. that gives authors a chance to say: click here, I'll get a text message right away and you'll get my "go"/"no go" within 5 mins. If the answer is yes, here's my PayPal account, please send me $1.50\. Thanks! Maybe it's not as easy, but I think CC could help those active in the long tail a great deal to both share their stuff for personal use and also make some cash on the side? **[steve@stevegarfield.](http://stevegarfield.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-25 09:06:45 @Peter Bihr Take a look at CC+ http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Ccplus While I'm here, I'd like ot ask Flickr to carry along the CC license info with photo embeds. You've got the license info, why not pass it along with the embed code, for your own work and others work that ou resue? Thanks, --Steve **[Bill Ward](http://www.brickpile.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-25 13:45:29 I think one reason the government uses so many contractors is precisely so that they can copyright their work product.... I think it'd be great for the Obama posts on YouTube to be licensed under CC, but they probably can't be since even CC is a form of copyright and the government can't produce copyright. Of course, if the video was shot by a TV network (such as ABC News, who release a podcast version of the addresses, as I found out Yesterday on iTunes) then it could fall to the TV network to embrace CC, which seems hardly likely. **[jay dedman](http://ryanishungry.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-25 13:59:15 We did a project last year at politicalvideo.org, where we made Bush speeches available for download and remix. We scraped the REAL/WMV videos off whitehouse.gov, which has no mention of copyright. We believe that speeches of our President on a government site are public domain. We did some research and found several citation like this: http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1./treatise8.html "It can be assumed that, where a Government agency commissions a work for its own use merely as an alternative to having one of its own employees prepare the work, the right to secure a private copyright would be withheld." So even if a private contractor records government events for the government, it's still owned by the people since they are not adding anything of value to the work. Funny enough, I met one of the guys who ran whitehouse.gov for President Bush. When I asked him if the videos were in the public domain, he said "of course". When I asked him why they didn't make clear the copyright, he kind of shrugged. Carl Malamund has done ground breaking work slogging through the lack of government asserting clear/false copyrights on public documents: http://public.resource.org In the end, we're talking about Youtube just letting creators choose the copyright they want. Blip.tv has done this for three years to great effect. All this is just about creating a structure in which we can be transparent with copyright for videos, instead of the shadowy world that exists now. **[Mary Hodder](http://napsterization.org/stories?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-26 12:46:43 Chris, Youtube requires that all uploaders own the copyright to the work they submit, and that the uploader give YT and the community a commercial reuse license. It would be great to have YT use CC (I asked them a couple of years ago and didn't get the sense they understood any of this at all) but Barak Obama's talks are already under the manditory commercial reuse license (in other words, it's not in question). I'd like to see Obama spread all his videos all over as well (not just YT), and put them out under a "no rights reserved" - public domain license cuing people to the fact that the rights are public domain as well. **[YouTube, copyright, Creative Commons, government works, and the Public Domain – cultivate creativity](http://cultivatecreativity.com/youtube-copyright-creative-commons-government-works-and-the-public-domain.htm?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-05 17:59:02 \[...\] was some great discussion recently on Chris Messina’s blog, and Lawrence Lessig’s blog, around the topic of Obama’s YouTube videos and the \[...\] ### On invite-only betas URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/on-invite-only-betas/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:07.000Z [Fred Wilson](http://www.avc.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) wrote about [the value of blogging and building social capital](http://www.avc.com/a%5Fvc/2008/11/do-you-ever-do.html?ref=chrismessina.me), demonstrated by the hundred requests for invites he received on his [post on his recent investment](http://www.unionsquareventures.com/2008/11/boxee.html?ref=chrismessina.me), [Boxee](http://boxee.tv/?ref=chrismessina.me), an invite-only service. Now, while I find the behavior of public invite-requesting curious, I understand it. I also think there's another side to this equation that I'd like to point out, being one of the fortunate early adopters who happens to get invited to a lot of early alphas and betas... and that's understanding the relationship between the creator of the beta and the testers. Or, to put it another way, requesting an invite to a service for one's own benefit is one thing; understanding that an invite is a privilege given in exchange for feedback and suggestions provided is another. And the secret to getting early access to beta programs is, perhaps obviously, to *be a good beta tester*. There are any number of ways to demonstrate that you're worthy of an invite to an invite-only alpha or beta program. One problem is that a lot of beta feedback is submitted privately, outside of public forums. Whenever I can, I attempt to use more [public](http://uservoice.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [forums](http://getsatisfaction.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), both for my own recollection, but also for the benefit or other testers, developers and later users. In other cases, I'll use Flickr or [Twitter](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/status/104849392?ref=chrismessina.me), leading to interesting phenomena, similar to what Fred describes. [](http://www.spotify.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)In particular, I've been alpha testing a music player called [Spotify](http://www.spotify.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) for some time. It's an incredible service and [recently opened up with three levels of service](http://www.spotify.com/blog/archives/2008/10/07/weve-only-just-begun/?ref=chrismessina.me), although it's sadly not available in the US yet owing to licensing issues. Now, [the only way](http://www.spotify.com/blog/archives/2008/10/28/invite-your-friends/?ref=chrismessina.me) to get an account with the service is to [request an invitation](https://www.spotify.com/en/invitation/?ref=chrismessina.me). It just so happens that I screenshotted an element of the new interface, uploaded it to Flickr and titled the photo "[Spotify Invites](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2995113980/?ref=chrismessina.me)". That photo is now the [second result for that phrase on Google](http://www.google.com/search?q=spotify%20invites&ref=chrismessina.me) and people have noticed, quickly exhausting my supply of invites. The problem with this scenario, and with Fred's, is that many folks seem eager to get access *solely for their own benefit*, without thought to the *quid pro quo* that makes beta programs successful (and ultimately benefit both the developer and subsequent users!). And I think it's worth it to point out that beta programs aren't just freebie give-aways: the gate is there for a reason! I wrote [this post](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2005/08/24/what-of-this-silly-little-invite-only-idea/?ref=chrismessina.me) in 2005, back when Gmail was an invite-only service (!!) and I was thinking about the relationships we were attempting to cultivate with the Flock alpha tester program: > So what of [all](http://360.yahoo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [these](http://gmail.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [invite-only](http://wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (or [formally](http://odeo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) invite-only) services where you have to know someone on the inside to get a [golden ticket](http://matt.wordpress.com/2005/08/15/invites/?ref=chrismessina.me)? Does it artificially increase desire? Does it help services grow organically and cut down on trolls and spam, creating more value for invitees? Does it create more investment from the user community and perhaps establish even minor connections between invitor and invitee? Or does it create a false hierarchy around an inner circle of well-connected geeks? > > Who knows? > > What I do know is that it’s a curious trend and happening rather profusely across the web. Good or bad? I can’t quite say — except that in the case of [Flock,](http://flock.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) we’re using the invite system to start out slowly on purpose. We want to not only be able to scale up organically, but we also want to cultivate relationships with our brave early adopters so that we can build the best experience possible over time. And to that end — we want to make sure that when we do launch publicly, we’ve hammered out all the glaring issues — as well as minor ones — so that sum total Flock makes you more productive, more explorative, and more voraciously social on the web. So for now, Flock will remain available to few kindred souls with enough courage to shove through our bugs and dodge the sharp edges. In the meantime, do [add yourself](http://flock.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) to our invite lottery so that your name will be there when the next round of invites go out. Not much has changed in terms of the structure of invite-only betas (even though the tools for managing them have improved), but I think something of the intimacy and purpose of these programs have been missed as more of the mainstream have gotten used to handing out *just* their email address for access to such initiatives. As Fred points out that there's value in building up social capital so that you can help stoke interest in new projects and draw the interest of potentially valuable contributors and testers, but it's just as important to highlight the value of diligent and hard-working testers who have an interest in improving products and becoming partners in the potential success of such projects. I think there's the potential for mutually reinforcing and ongoing relationships in the execution of a productive beta program, and that those longer-term relationships should not be overlooked. . . . To that end, I'm looking for some highly motivated and qualified testers for [LittleSnapper](http://www.realmacsoftware.com/littlesnapper/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Real Mac Software's](http://www.realmacsoftware.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) new webpage screenshot utility. Be one of the first ten to leave a comment with your proper email address and a description of how you approach beta testing and I'll send you info on where you can sign up. As I'm eager to see LittleSnapper mature, I won't settle for just anyone — *prove* to me that you'd add value to the alpha tester program! ;) --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Peter** ¡ 2008-11-19 14:18:21 I would like to betatest LittleSnapper. As a webdesigner I take screenshots everyday of websites to keep my inspiration in one place and Skitch i a good tool for it but i need a better one and I hope that this is going to be a killerapp. **[Amos Griffin](http://griffinandhoxie.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-19 15:22:32 You know Chris, the truth is in the past I think I have failed at being a good beta tester. Maybe for the reason you present above. I was in it for myself, but much more so because I was lazy and trigger shy. You know the old saying, "there are no stupid questions?" Well there are, and I've asked plenty of them. So often I'd find myself noticing a bug or something amiss and let it pass - "Oh they already know this," or "Geeze, I've never built an application. Who am I to tell them it stinks?" Perhaps these were justifications for inaction, and I don't mean to spill my insecurities on your weblog, but in the past I think I've missed the point with betas. That I'm the user. That if something seems wrong it's my responsibility, not just to the developers, but to other users to mention what might not be working, to mention it with grace and wit and humility, but to mention it nonetheless. Anyway, this is all to say in the past and on occasion I have stunk at beta testing, which seems a funny way to ask for an invite - give it to me I suck balls - but I kinda feel as if I have an idea about what the responsibilities and tradeoffs are of a beta tester, much more so that one or two years ago. So, with that said, and in light of my past missteps, I think I might make a good beta tester for LittleSnapper because I use Skitch everyday and have a good relation point from which to work, I like to use an application like this for the blogging, and, most importantly, I want LittleSnapper to rock for us all and will due my part to insure that it does. A little long here but such is my style. **[Todd Sieling](http://toddsieling.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-19 16:07:48 For projects I work on, whether we go with an invite-only or wide-open approach depends on a number of factors, but primarily on what the project team thinks they can handle. Even with a beta label, there's a measure of confidence in the readiness of a product or feature that comes with a wide-open approach. By using invites, the team can ensure a slower rollout that doesn't get people's hopes up only to lose their interest because the product isn't \*that\* ready or the team can't keep up with the amount of feedback. So for me, the decision comes down to "are we ready for everyone and anyone to take a kick at this?" and as such an invite-only path means a more controlled rollout, until we're confident about opening the doors to everyone. An extra benefit of invite-only and the slower pace they bring is that those answering feedback can take more time to have good discussions with testers, get followup data, and from that bring better feedback into the project. With a doors-wide-open approach, that's not as easy, and the relationships that might have been built through an invite-only process might not happen. I'm also a Skitch user, and would love to give LittleSnapper a try to see how it compares and contrasts, as I know what does and doesn't work for me with Skitch. **[james vreeland](http://me-trics.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-19 19:25:16 During the course of -our- invite only beta, my team has been passing a tremendous amount of screenshots back and forth to hunt down active issues and space for improvements. By beta testing -your- product, I hope we can improve -our- product, to improve -your- experience. Very ouroboros. **Adam Bandy** ¡ 2008-11-19 21:50:47 Hi Chris, I think you I could be a good beta tester for LittleSnapper. Some of the reasons to 'invite' me are: 1) I've been eagerly waiting for LittleSnapper. 2) I'm a software developer who can help 'explain' bugs to other developers more easily 3) I use screenshots everyday, and looked at a number of screenshot applications, for both Mac and Windows. Thanks! **grah!** ¡ 2008-11-20 00:37:32 I would love to help give feedback on ls. I've got folders full of screencaps as I haven't yet migrated to a management utility. **[AdamD](http://adamduvander.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-20 09:21:08 Just yesterday I told someone I wasn't a good choice to alpha test his product because I wasn't in his target demographic. I think that while testers have had the wrong idea, so have some who give out invites. Their motives are sometimes for buzz rather than good feedback and measured growth. That said, I take screenshots all day as I write for Webmonkey. Currently I use a combination of Mac's built-in tools, the Pearl Crescent Page Saver extension for Firefox, Pixelmator and Skitch. I'm always on the lookout to improve my workflow and I'd be happy to provide feedback from the standpoint of a daily user. **Nicolas D** ¡ 2008-11-24 07:20:21 I would love to have an Invite. By the way thank you Chris for everything you do for the open web. Nicolas **David Horn** ¡ 2008-11-24 08:18:03 I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a bit and pretend I'm not a developer who craves feedback. There is definitely a difference between a beta user and a beta tester. The problem with beta testing invite-only tools is that a lot of these services are like blind dates. You don't know what you're in for until you're committed for dinner, and sometimes you're so turned off afterwards you can't wait to get away. When I asked you for a Spotify invite, all I had to go on (beyond your advocacy) was https://www.spotify.com/en/about/what/ "Spotify is a new way to enjoy music." How is that going to help me decide if I want to commit to being a good beta tester? The cost of requesting an invite is so low, it's easier to ask for an invite first and decide once you're in. A lot of web sites with invite-only programs don't let potential users know what they're in for, and do a poor job of cultivating their community. If you use something that's invite-only that you enjoy, the quid-pro-quo should follow naturally. It can be valuable feedback or strong advocacy, but that requires that the tool is igniting some passion in users, and that's impossible to know sometimes without trying. You'll get both beta testers and beta users in your invite-only phase, but in my opinion beta testers graduate FROM beta users. The graduation percentage depends on how well the service cultivates its beta community, and that community begins before invite codes are even sent. I suspect, like how to implement the login page, is an aspect that's never given much thought by developers. So, uh, given my stance...you don't have to send me a LittleSnapper invite. =P **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-24 10:52:59 @Dave: I think you make a good point. But I think it reinforces my broader point that there are two ways to approach beta programs -- from a selfish perspective (i.e. "an invite is the only way I can access this app") or from a generous perspective (i.e. "I want to help make this product better."). Certainly people just pounding on an app are going to reveal issues -- scaling and whatnot -- so it is useful to get "bodies in the room" so-to-speak. But I think it can be counterproductive for your later ambitions if people sign up just to try-before-they-commit and write it off because it's too "buggy". This certainly happened to Flock, and I imagine it's happened to Songbird and other apps in the past. People didn't really think about what the "beta" meant, or didn't care, and evaluated the app prematurely. And I think that's damaging. Instead, they should have been patient and waited until the final product had been released (or something close to final) to evaluate it. Unfortunately, betas are so commonly used and abused now that by the time you get around to getting access, you forget why you were interested in the first place. In any case, I still think it's worth thinking about one's approach, as either a developer or as a tester, and optimize to whatever is more important to you at the time. ### Bookmarks for October 27 to November 10 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-october-27-to-november-10/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:44.000Z A bi-weekly collection of linky goodness. #### [Apple - Movie Trailers - Up](http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/up/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Apple - Movie Trailers - Up](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cecodescu/thumbnail/160) Looks to be a pretty colorful Pixar movie! Tags: [movie](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/movie?ref=chrismessina.me), [pixar](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/pixar?ref=chrismessina.me), [up](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/up?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Help, We’re Being Digitally Bombarded | Mark Evans](http://www.markevanstech.com/2008/11/08/help-were-being-digitally-bombarded/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Help, We’re Being Digitally Bombarded | Mark Evans](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/hugikuvo/thumbnail/160) This is a good encapsulation/description of the "information abundance" problem/opportunity! Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Announcing GeoSocial](http://blog.planeteye.com/2008/10/14/announcing-geosocial/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Announcing GeoSocial](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wizamesc/thumbnail/160) "GeoSocial Is a group for people interested in exploring the uses of geodata to enhance the relevancy of information on the web and create new means of social interaction." Tags: [geo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/geo?ref=chrismessina.me), [geosocial](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/geosocial?ref=chrismessina.me), [geolocation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/geolocation?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [The Shape of Alpha (Flickr Developer Blog)](http://code.flickr.com/blog/2008/10/30/the-shape-of-alpha/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![The Shape of Alpha (Flickr Developer Blog)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/drumumugof/thumbnail/160) This is an incredible way to map things... or to discover the borders of areas! Tags: [flickr](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/flickr?ref=chrismessina.me), [maps](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/maps?ref=chrismessina.me), [geotagging](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/geotagging?ref=chrismessina.me), [mapping](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mapping?ref=chrismessina.me), [geocoding](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/geocoding?ref=chrismessina.me), [visualization](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/visualization?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [2nd Annual Open Web Awards: NOMINATIONS OPEN!](http://mashable.com/2008/11/05/open-web-awards-2/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![2nd Annual Open Web Awards: NOMINATIONS OPEN!](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/prehiris/thumbnail/160) Vote for your favorites! Tags: [awards](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/awards?ref=chrismessina.me), [web2.0](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/web2.0?ref=chrismessina.me), [mashable](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mashable?ref=chrismessina.me), [nominations](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/nominations?ref=chrismessina.me), [openwebawards](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openwebawards?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Marketplace: Un-conferencing: Leveraging face time](http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/02/29/leveraging%5Fface%5Ftime%5Fat%5Fan%5Funconference?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Marketplace: Un-conferencing: Leveraging face time](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/frechoshof/thumbnail/160) "Silicon Valley is known for innovation and its sometimes unorthodox working environments. But a new trend has baffled correspondent Cash Peters: When is a conference not a conference? Apparently, when no one's in charge..." Tags: [barcamp](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/barcamp?ref=chrismessina.me), [unconference](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/unconference?ref=chrismessina.me), [news](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/news?ref=chrismessina.me), [marketplace](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/marketplace?ref=chrismessina.me), [npr.](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/npr.?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [iCalShare - Share Your iCalendars!](http://icalshare.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![iCalShare - Share Your iCalendars!](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/sushexan/thumbnail/160) Tags: [calendar](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/calendar?ref=chrismessina.me), [ical](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ical?ref=chrismessina.me), [calendars](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/calendars?ref=chrismessina.me), [events](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/events?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Unconferences? - (37signals)](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/1380-unconferences?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Unconferences? - (37signals)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/dranaxuna/thumbnail/160) Nice to see 37 Signals "discover" unconferences. Tags: [barcamp](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/barcamp?ref=chrismessina.me), [unconferences](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/unconferences?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [TimeView : Built with Processing](http://votereport.us/TimeView/applet/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![TimeView : Built with Processing](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/yupiyigik/thumbnail/160) Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [It's Time to Reboot America. | Rebooting America](http://rebooting.personaldemocracy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![It's Time to Reboot America. | Rebooting America](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/qanichire/thumbnail/160) "The Personal Democracy Forum presents an anthology of forty-four essays brimming with the hopes of reenergizing, reorganizing, and reorienting our government for the Internet Age. How would completely reorganizing our system of representation work? Is it Tags: [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [democracy](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/democracy?ref=chrismessina.me), [socialnetworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/socialnetworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [pdf](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/pdf?ref=chrismessina.me), [government](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/government?ref=chrismessina.me), [ebook](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ebook?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [jpoco - Google Code](http://code.google.com/p/jpoco/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![jpoco - Google Code](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/puxescechi/thumbnail/160) "PortableContacts Java library" Tags: [poco](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/poco?ref=chrismessina.me), [java](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/java?ref=chrismessina.me), [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [library](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/library?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Study shows how spammers cash in (BBC)](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7719281.stm?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Study shows how spammers cash in (BBC)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/miyolesc/thumbnail/160) "Spammers are turning a profit despite only getting one response for every 12.5m e-mails they send, finds a study." Tags: [spam](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/spam?ref=chrismessina.me), [technology](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/technology?ref=chrismessina.me), [botnet](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/botnet?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [BlueTrip CSS Framework](http://bluetrip.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![BlueTrip CSS Framework](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/whustoyuw/thumbnail/160) "A full featured and beautiful CSS framework spawned from Blueprint and Tripoli, now with a life of its own" Tags: [css](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/css?ref=chrismessina.me), [css](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/css?ref=chrismessina.me), [blueprint](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/blueprint?ref=chrismessina.me), [framework](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/framework?ref=chrismessina.me), [webdesign](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/webdesign?ref=chrismessina.me), [typography](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/typography?ref=chrismessina.me), [bluetrip](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bluetrip?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [CSS Advanced Layout Module](http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-layout/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![CSS Advanced Layout Module](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/xibezovuq/thumbnail/160) A proposal for handling web page layout in CSS3. Tags: [css](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/css?ref=chrismessina.me), [webdesign](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/webdesign?ref=chrismessina.me), [layout](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/layout?ref=chrismessina.me), [css3](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/css3?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Fire Eagle: Best Practices for OAuth with Fire Eagle](http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/developer/documentation/oauth%5Fbest%5Fpractice?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Fire Eagle: Best Practices for OAuth with Fire Eagle](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/kiyikoj/thumbnail/160) "Fire Eagle supports multiple methods of OAuth authentication that we tentatively name ‘web’, ‘desktop’, ‘mobile’ and ‘plugin’. However, the power of modern development tools rather blurs those definitions. Techniques that naturally apply to ‘desktop’ env Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [bestpractice](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bestpractice?ref=chrismessina.me), [security](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/security?ref=chrismessina.me), [documentation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/documentation?ref=chrismessina.me), [fireeagle](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fireeagle?ref=chrismessina.me), [programming](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/programming?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Election Night 11-04-08 - a set on Flickr](http://flickr.com/photos/barackobamadotcom/sets/72157608716313371/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Election Night 11-04-08 - a set on Flickr](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/kohotaqa/thumbnail/160) Backstage photos from Obama on election night. Tags: [obama](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/obama?ref=chrismessina.me), [pictures](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/pictures?ref=chrismessina.me), [election](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/election?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Contact Browsing in a Distributed Social Network](http://pixelsebi.com/2008-11-05/contact-browsing-in-a-distributed-social-network/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Contact Browsing in a Distributed Social Network](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/frivijojo/thumbnail/160) Interesting post about how distributed social networking could go...! Tags: [diso](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/diso?ref=chrismessina.me), [portablecontacts](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/portablecontacts?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [FRONTLINE: the war briefing | PBS](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warbriefing/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![FRONTLINE: the war briefing | PBS](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/slirimihew/thumbnail/160) Afghanistan is now a deadlier battleground than Iraq. Can the war there be won? What are the next president's options? Tags: [afghanistan](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/afghanistan?ref=chrismessina.me), [frontline](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/frontline?ref=chrismessina.me), [tv](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tv?ref=chrismessina.me), [pakistan](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/pakistan?ref=chrismessina.me), [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Obama Asks Bush to Provide Help for Automakers - NYTimes.com](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11auto.html?em&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Obama Asks Bush to Provide Help for Automakers - NYTimes.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/qoveruz/thumbnail/160) Hard to say how I feel about an automaker bailout. Tie it to renewable energy or electric cars and then I'm more interested. Tags: [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [georgew.bush](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/georgew.bush?ref=chrismessina.me), [barackobama](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/barackobama?ref=chrismessina.me), [automakers](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/automakers?ref=chrismessina.me), [finance](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/finance?ref=chrismessina.me), [bailout](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bailout?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Fusion Ads](http://fusionads.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Fusion Ads](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/pescituy/thumbnail/160) "Fusion aims to provide advertisers with a targeted and effective platform to distribute their messages to an influential audience at an affordable price. We invite advertisers to make well-designed ads that are attractive to our readers." Tags: [advertising](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/advertising?ref=chrismessina.me), [business](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/business?ref=chrismessina.me), [ads](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ads?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Tweetie](http://www.atebits.com/software/tweetie/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Tweetie](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/quscunipo/thumbnail/160) fast, full-featured twitter client for iPhone and iPod touch Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Customer Feedback for Change For Us](http://change.uservoice.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Customer Feedback for Change For Us](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cicequche/thumbnail/160) UserVoice site for Barack Obama (I'm guessing it's unofficial). Tags: [obama](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/obama?ref=chrismessina.me), [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Official Gmail Blog: Say hello to Gmail voice and video chat](http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/say-hello-to-gmail-voice-and-video-chat.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Official Gmail Blog: Say hello to Gmail voice and video chat](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/vrithigociw/thumbnail/160) "That's why today we're launching voice and video chat -- right inside Gmail. We've tried to make this an easy-to-use, seamless experience, with high-quality audio and video -- all for free. All you have to do is download and install the voice and video p Tags: [gmail](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gmail?ref=chrismessina.me), [google](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/google?ref=chrismessina.me), [xmpp](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/xmpp?ref=chrismessina.me), [gchat](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gchat?ref=chrismessina.me), [video](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/video?ref=chrismessina.me), [gtalk](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gtalk?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [BLDGBLOG: Resampled Space](http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/resampled-space.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![BLDGBLOG: Resampled Space](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/yusostu/thumbnail/160) "Belgian photographer Filip Dujardin makes images of unexpected buildings – that is, he "combines photographs of parts of buildings into new, fictional, architectonic structures," Mark Magazine explains." Tags: [architecture](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/architecture?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [urbanism](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/urbanism?ref=chrismessina.me), [inspiration](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/inspiration?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Wheatgrass Juice Icons](http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/icons%5Fscreensavers/wheatgrassjuice.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Wheatgrass Juice Icons](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/whidosu/thumbnail/160) "Simple collection of 8 carefully crafted Mac OS X icons related to wheatgrass juice. Make the most of Leopard and Cover Flow, the wheatgrass juice icons scale up to 512 pixels without any loss of quality." Tags: [icons](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/icons?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [macosx](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/macosx?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Scrumy](http://scrumy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Scrumy](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/razeyisco/thumbnail/160) Why does Scrumy exist? We were attempting to use Scrum to manage our projects, but the generic post-its we bought kept falling off the wall. We looked for online solutions to scrum, but all of them were too complicated and expensive. All we really wanted Tags: [scrum](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/scrum?ref=chrismessina.me), [projectmanagement](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/projectmanagement?ref=chrismessina.me), [project](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/project?ref=chrismessina.me), [agile](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/agile?ref=chrismessina.me), [tools](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tools?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Politics: Obama's Twitter goes silent](http://valleywag.com/5083329/obamas-twitter-goes-silent?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Politics: Obama's Twitter goes silent](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/jefiri/thumbnail/160) Where y'at, @barackobama? Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [barackobama](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/barackobama?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Pixelmator Team Releases Pixelmator 1.3 Tempo](http://www.pixelmator.com/weblog/2008/11/11/pixelmator-team-releases-pixelmator-13-tempo/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Pixelmator Team Releases Pixelmator 1.3 Tempo](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/grothaqechu/thumbnail/160) "Version 1.3 Tempo Features Major Performance Improvements, Click-and-Drag Tools, Improved Adjustment Tools, Smart Palette Hide Feature, and More." Tags: [pixelmator](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/pixelmator?ref=chrismessina.me), [macosx](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/macosx?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Cust-o-mized!](http://fieldnotesbrand.com/2008/05/06/cust-o-mized/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Cust-o-mized!](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wharothe/thumbnail/160) "Customize Field Notes for your event, company, website, youth soccer team, birdwatching club–you name it, we’ll custom-print it. We’ll accept custom orders anytime, but since we’re going on press soon to print more AEA books, the economies of scale come Tags: [fieldnotes](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fieldnotes?ref=chrismessina.me), [customization](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/customization?ref=chrismessina.me), [notebooks](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/notebooks?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [THE KIT: available now!](http://fieldnotesbrand.com/2008/11/10/the-kit-available-now/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![THE KIT: available now!](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/duhoqam/thumbnail/160) "FIELD NOTES BRAND stays up late worrying about such things, and we’ve created the perfect solution: The FIELD NOTES KIT." Tags: [fieldnotes](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fieldnotes?ref=chrismessina.me), [deal](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/deal?ref=chrismessina.me), [notebooks](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/notebooks?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Obsessable: Your personal technology guide.](http://www.obsessable.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Obsessable: Your personal technology guide.](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/lagostuxurd/thumbnail/160) "Obsessable covers the latest in the world of technology, including cell phones, digital cameras, and HDTVs — obsessively, of course." Tags: [technology](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/technology?ref=chrismessina.me), [reviews](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/reviews?ref=chrismessina.me), [gadgets](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gadgets?ref=chrismessina.me), [tech](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tech?ref=chrismessina.me), [guide](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/guide?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [What's Hot on the Web Right Now? OneRiot Aims to Tell You - ReadWriteWeb](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/oneriot%5Fwhats%5Fhot%5Fright%5Fnow.php?ref=chrismessina.me) ![What's Hot on the Web Right Now? OneRiot Aims to Tell You - ReadWriteWeb](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/tohurux/thumbnail/160) Me.dium renames itself to OneRiot, becomes "social search" engine. Tags: [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Pure Digital Introduces Flip MinoHD™ – The World’s Smallest HD Camcorder](http://www.theflip.com/buzz/buzz%5F111208.shtml?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Pure Digital Introduces Flip MinoHD™ – The World’s Smallest HD Camcorder](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/twavebo/thumbnail/160) Flip announces MinoHD along with personalized designs which can be shared on theFlip.com to earn commissions. Tags: [video](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/video?ref=chrismessina.me), [flip](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/flip?ref=chrismessina.me), [hd](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/hd?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Review: Things for iPhone | iPhone Central | Macworld](http://www.macworld.com/article/136713/2008/11/things%5Fiphone.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Review: Things for iPhone | iPhone Central | Macworld](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/zethaqeha/thumbnail/160) Four mice for Things for iPhone. I highly recommend this app, and its counterpart on the desktop. Tags: [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [things.app](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/things.app?ref=chrismessina.me), [gtd](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gtd?ref=chrismessina.me), [iphoneapp](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphoneapp?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [watchdog.net: the good government site with teeth](http://watchdog.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![watchdog.net: the good government site with teeth](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/tremezun/thumbnail/160) Fascinating site to get government information about earmarks, etc. Tags: [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [government](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/government?ref=chrismessina.me), [activism](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/activism?ref=chrismessina.me), [transparency](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/transparency?ref=chrismessina.me), [watchdog](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/watchdog?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Find Open Source Alternatives to commercial software | Open Source Alternative - osalt.com](http://www.osalt.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Find Open Source Alternatives to commercial software | Open Source Alternative - osalt.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/noxetikax/thumbnail/160) "Find open source software alternatives to well-known commercial software" Tags: [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [software](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/software?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Air Lines](http://www.lx97.com/maps/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Air Lines](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/scanascex/thumbnail/160) "Air Lines is an art project showing worldwide airliner routes. Every single scheduled flight on any given day is reresented by a fine line from it's point of origin to it's port of destination. Thereby forming a net of thousands of lines. Hubs like JFK, Tags: [visualization](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/visualization?ref=chrismessina.me), [poster](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/poster?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [flights](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/flights?ref=chrismessina.me), [routes](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/routes?ref=chrismessina.me), [airlines](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/airlines?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [37signals Developer Site: APIs and more](http://developer.37signals.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![37signals Developer Site: APIs and more](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cuhazuf/thumbnail/160) "37signals Developerland is where we publish our APIs and other bits of interest to developers. Our APIs are implemented as vanilla XML over HTTP. We currently publish the Highrise API, the Basecamp API, the Backpack API, and the Backpack Calendar API. Yo Tags: [37signals](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/37signals?ref=chrismessina.me), [api](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/api?ref=chrismessina.me), [reference](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/reference?ref=chrismessina.me), [developernetwork](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/developernetwork?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [flot - Google Code](http://code.google.com/p/flot/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![flot - Google Code](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/tawoduzej/thumbnail/160) "Flot is a pure Javascript plotting library for jQuery. It produces graphical plots of arbitrary datasets on-the-fly client-side." Tags: [javascript](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/javascript?ref=chrismessina.me), [jquery](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/jquery?ref=chrismessina.me), [javascript](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/javascript?ref=chrismessina.me), [graph](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/graph?ref=chrismessina.me), [chart](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/chart?ref=chrismessina.me), [library](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/library?ref=chrismessina.me), [charts](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/charts?ref=chrismessina.me), [ajax](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ajax?ref=chrismessina.me), [visualization](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/visualization?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [They Planned Prop 8 For Eleven Years (The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan)](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the%5Fdaily%5Fdish/2008/11/they-planned-pr.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![They Planned Prop 8 For Eleven Years (The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/xechaciz/thumbnail/160) "The LDS leadership is busted for targeting gay couples as far back as 1997\. There's a new memo that has come to light from late Mormon president Gordon Hinckley, carefully planning the assault on gay families, hoping to use the Catholic hierarchy as a PR Tags: [noonprop8](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/noonprop8?ref=chrismessina.me), [prop8](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/prop8?ref=chrismessina.me), [politics](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/politics?ref=chrismessina.me), [gaymarriage](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gaymarriage?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [OpenSocial Dev App](http://osda.appspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![OpenSocial Dev App](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/sidothish/thumbnail/160) "This OpenSocial application provides the ability to write and save JavaScript code samples to execute against OpenSocial containers. This helps rapidly test sample OpenSocial code. Code samples can be saved and loaded. You can give other developers link Tags: [opensocial](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensocial?ref=chrismessina.me), [development](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/development?ref=chrismessina.me), [webdev](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/webdev?ref=chrismessina.me), [tools](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tools?ref=chrismessina.me), [programming](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/programming?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Design Stencils - Yahoo! Design Pattern Library](http://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/wireframes/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Design Stencils - Yahoo! Design Pattern Library](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wrawiduvuch/thumbnail/160) "Yahoo! Design Stencil Kit version 1.0 is available for OmniGraffle, Visio (XML), Adobe Illustrator (PDF and SVG), and Adobe Photoshop (PNG)" Tags: [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [yahoo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yahoo?ref=chrismessina.me), [templates](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/templates?ref=chrismessina.me), [wireframe](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wireframe?ref=chrismessina.me), [ui](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ui?ref=chrismessina.me), [patterns](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/patterns?ref=chrismessina.me), [wireframes](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wireframes?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [I Believe in Open — Home](http://ibelieveinopen.ca/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![I Believe in Open — Home](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/yuzigu/thumbnail/160) "I Believe In Open is a national movement challenging politicians to commit to five key improvements in government transparency." Tags: [government](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/government?ref=chrismessina.me), [canada](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/canada?ref=chrismessina.me), [transparency](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/transparency?ref=chrismessina.me), [open](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/open?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [draft: OpenID OAuth Extension](http://step2.googlecode.com/svn/spec/openid%5Foauth%5Fextension/drafts/0/openid%5Foauth%5Fextension.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![draft: OpenID OAuth Extension](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/kafostoha/thumbnail/160) "This draft describe a mechanism to combine an OpenID authentication request with the approval of an OAuth request token." Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me), [specification](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/specification?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Zuckerberg’s Law of Information Sharing (NYTimes.com)](http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/zuckerbergs-law-of-information-sharing/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Zuckerberg’s Law of Information Sharing (NYTimes.com)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/lithikad/thumbnail/160) "“I would expect that next year, people will share twice as much information as they share this year, and next year, they will be sharing twice as much as they did the year before,” he said. “That means that people are using Facebook, and the applications Tags: [facebook](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/facebook?ref=chrismessina.me), [socialnetworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/socialnetworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [sharing](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/sharing?ref=chrismessina.me), [web2.0](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/web2.0?ref=chrismessina.me), [socialnetworks](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/socialnetworks?ref=chrismessina.me), [markzuckerberg](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/markzuckerberg?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Crunchberry Project](http://crunchberry.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Crunchberry Project](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/kedascusc/thumbnail/160) "A team of journalism students looking for new ways to engage communities of geography online through technology and local news." Tags: [journalism](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/journalism?ref=chrismessina.me), [education](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/education?ref=chrismessina.me), [collaborationfacebookconnect](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/collaborationfacebookconnect?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Fresh Apps - iPhone Apps](http://www.freshapps.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Fresh Apps - iPhone Apps](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/thajawoj/thumbnail/160) "Fresh Apps is all about finding the best App's for your iPhone." Tags: [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [software](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/software?ref=chrismessina.me), [apps](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/apps?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Some areas of S.F. voted to ban same-sex marriage (SF Gate)](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2008/11/13/MNIQ144185.DTL&o=1&type=politics&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Some areas of S.F. voted to ban same-sex marriage (SF Gate)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/grushavushap/thumbnail/160) Wow. Now we know where the REAL San Francisco exists. (hint: NOT south) Tags: [sanfrancisco](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/sanfrancisco?ref=chrismessina.me), [gaymarriage](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gaymarriage?ref=chrismessina.me), [prop8](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/prop8?ref=chrismessina.me), [noonprop8](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/noonprop8?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Open Source Geo Stack (Mikel Maron)](http://brainoff.com/weblog/2008/10/31/1372?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Open Source Geo Stack (Mikel Maron)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/trejuhab/thumbnail/160) "The OpenGeo Stack is the epitome of clarity, breaking down their tool set in a nice executive summary. But the OpenGeo stack only covers their tools, not all the available options. So I’m going to make a quick first pass of a high level overview. It’s us Tags: [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [mapping](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mapping?ref=chrismessina.me), [geo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/geo?ref=chrismessina.me), [list](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/list?ref=chrismessina.me), [geolocation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/geolocation?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [OpenGeo - Technology](http://opengeo.org/technology/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![OpenGeo - Technology](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cigarote/thumbnail/160) "Finally, attractive and seamless user experience in geospatial web applications. The OpenGeo stack is a flexible set of open source components all built for interoperability." Tags: [geo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/geo?ref=chrismessina.me), [geolocation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/geolocation?ref=chrismessina.me), [geocoding](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/geocoding?ref=chrismessina.me), [location](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/location?ref=chrismessina.me), [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [JumpBox | Instant Infrastructure](http://www.jumpbox.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![JumpBox | Instant Infrastructure](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/dagisi/thumbnail/160) Tags: [virtualization](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/virtualization?ref=chrismessina.me), [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [virtualappliances](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/virtualappliances?ref=chrismessina.me), [vmware](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/vmware?ref=chrismessina.me), [software](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/software?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Soapsuds: LÄTT](http://www.vanillasoap.com/2008/11/icon-latt.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Soapsuds: LÄTT](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/noqore/thumbnail/160) 68MB pack of tasty icons! Tags: [icons](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/icons?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Kaltura - Open Source Video Platform](http://corp.kaltura.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Kaltura - Open Source Video Platform](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/brotinep/thumbnail/160) "Easily add full video capabilities to any site at little or no cost" Tags: [video](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/video?ref=chrismessina.me), [web2.0](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/web2.0?ref=chrismessina.me), [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [videoblog](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/videoblog?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Will OpenID catch on? (ZDNet.com)](http://blogs.zdnet.com/community/?p=131&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Will OpenID catch on? (ZDNet.com)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/zascabushuh/thumbnail/160) Coverage of my blog post... begging the question: "Will OpenID catch on" (in spite of its current quirks). Tags: [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me), [identity](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/identity?ref=chrismessina.me), [via:mento.info](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/via:mento.info?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Independent study on OpenID awareness using Mechanical Turk URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/independent-study-on-openid-awareness-using-mechanical-turk/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:33.000Z Even though I wasn't able to attend the eighth [Internet Identity Workshop](http://iiw.idcommons.net/Index.php/Iiw2008b?ref=chrismessina.me) this week in Mountain View (check out the [latest episode](http://www.thesocialweb.tv/blog/2008/11/episode-18-live.html?ref=chrismessina.me) of TheSocialWeb.tv for a glimpse), I wanted to do my part to contribute so I'm sharing the results of a study that Brynn Evans and I performed on Mechanical Turk a short while ago. I'll cut to the chase and then go into some background detail. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3026058705/?ref=chrismessina.me)Of the 302 responses we received, we only rejected one, leaving us with **301 valid data points** to work with. Of those 301: - **19.3% *had heard of* OpenID** (58 people) - **9.0% knew what OpenID *was used for*** (27) and **8.0% were unsure** (24) - **1.3% *used* OpenID** (4) and **18.3% were unsure if they used it** (55). - **5.3% *recognized the OpenID icon*** (16) and **7.0% were unsure** (21). Combining some of the results, we found that: - of those *who know what OpenID is*, **14.81% use it**. - of those *who have merely heard of it*, **6.9% use it**. That's what the [data](http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pSGbbhtwI4kOhPusNx8Kycg&ref=chrismessina.me) show. ### Background Several weeks ago, Yahoo released [usability research and best practices](http://developer.yahoo.com/openid/bestpractices.html?ref=chrismessina.me) for OpenID ([PDF](http://developer.yahoo.com/openid/openid-research-jul08.pdf?ref=chrismessina.me)). This research was performed by Beverly Freeman in the Yahoo! Customer Insights division in July of this year and involved 9 female Yahoo! users age 32-39 with self-declared medium-to-high level of Internet savvy. This research, along with Eric Sachs' [later contributions](http://sites.google.com/site/oauthgoog/UXFedLogin?ref=chrismessina.me) (Google), have taken us from virtually zero research on the usability of OpenID to having a much more robust pool of information to pull from. And though I'm sure many would agree that this research only points to [opportunities for improvement](http://netmesh.info/jernst/Comments/allen-tom-usability-openid.html?ref=chrismessina.me), many people interpreted the results as an indication that "[OpenID is too confusing](http://www.thestandard.com/news/2008/10/14/yahoo-releases-openid-research-reveals-joe-six-pack-doesnt-get-it?ref=chrismessina.me)" or that it "[befuddles users](http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/Yahoo%5FUsers%5FBefuddled%5Fby%5FOpenID?ref=chrismessina.me)". A lot of people also took cheap shots, using the Yahoo! results to bolster their long-held arguments against the protocol and its unfamiliar interaction flow. The problem with such criticism, as far as I'm concerned, is that generalizing from the experiences of nine female Yahoo! users in their thirties is not necessarily representative of the web at large, nor are the conditions favorable to such research. Y'know, Ford got a lot of flack too when he introduced the Model T because everyone *loved* their horse and carriages. Good thing Ford was right. Now, some of the criticism of OpenID is valid, especially if it can be turned into [productive outcomes](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/10/28/openid-usability-is-not-an-oxymoron/?ref=chrismessina.me), like making OpenID easier to use, or less awkward. And it serves no one's interests to make grandiose claims on the basis of minimal data, so given [Brynn's](http://brynnevans.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [work](http://brynnevans.com/blog/2008/10/15/user-needs-during-social-search/?ref=chrismessina.me) using [Mechanical Turk](http://mturk.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([with](http://brynnevans.com/blog/2008/07/09/using-mechanical-turk-for-research/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Ed Chi](http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~echi/?ref=chrismessina.me) from PARC), I thought I'd ask her to help me set up a study to discover just what awareness of OpenID might be among a wider segment of the population, especially with [Japanese awareness of OpenID topping out around 28%](http://www.sakimura.org/en/modules/wordpress/index.php?p=53&ref=chrismessina.me) (with usage of OpenID at 15%, more than ten times what we saw with Turkers). ### Mechanical Turk Demographics First, it's important to point out something about Turker demographics. Because Turkers must have either a US bank account or be willing to be paid in Amazon gift certificates, the quality of participants you get (especially if you design your HIT well) will actually be pretty good (compared with, say, a [blog-based survey](http://lifehacker.com/5064261/is-openid-too-confusing?ref=chrismessina.me)). Now, Mechanical Turk actually has rules against asking for demographic or personally identifying information, but [some information](http://behind-the-enemy-lines.blogspot.com/2008/03/mechanical-turk-demographics.html?ref=chrismessina.me) has been gathered by [Panos Ipeirotis](http://behind-the-enemy-lines.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) to shed some light on who the Turkers are and [why they participate](http://behind-the-enemy-lines.blogspot.com/2008/03/why-people-participate-on-mechanical.html?ref=chrismessina.me). I'll leave the bulk of the analysis up to him, but it's worth noting that a survey put out on Mechanical Turk about OpenID will likely hit a fairly average segment of the internet-using population (or at least one that [doesn't differ greatly from college undergraduates](http://asc-parc.blogspot.com/2008/07/mechanical-turk-demographics.html?ref=chrismessina.me)). ### Method Over the course of a week (October 19 - 26), we fielded [302 responses](http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pSGbbhtwI4kOhPusNx8Kycg&ref=chrismessina.me) to [our survey](http://factorycity.net/projects/openid-survey/?ref=chrismessina.me), paying $0.02 for each valid reply (yes, we were essentially asking people for their "two cents"). We only rejected one response out of the batch, leaving us with 301 valid data points at a whooping cost of $6.02. ### Findings As I reported above, contrary to the 0% awareness demonstrated in the Yahoo! study of nine participants, we found that nearly 20% of respondents had at least *heard* of OpenID, though a much smaller percentage (1.3%) actually used it (or at least were consciously aware of using it — nearly everyone (18%) who'd heard of OpenID didn't know if they used it or not). There was also at least *some* familiarity with the OpenID logo/icon (5.3%). What's also interesting is that many respondents, upon hearing about "OpenID", expressed an interest in finding out more: "What is it? LOL."; "I've gotta look it up!"; "This survey has sparked my interest"; "Heading to Google to find out". I can't say that this shows *clear* interest in the concept, but at least some folks showed a curious disposition, as such: > How can I tell for sure whether I've used OpenID or not when I don't know what it is? I've surely heard of it. That confuses me mainly in Magnolia {bookmarking service} where I want to sign up, but I can't as it asks for OpenID. And until you mentioned above, it simply didn't occur to me to just search it up. Hell, after submitting this hit, I'm going to do that first and foremost. Anyways, thanks a lot for indirectly suggesting a move!!! Now, I won't repeat the other findings, as they've already been reported above. ### Thoughts and next steps The results of this survey are interesting to me, but not unexpected. They're not reassuring either, and they tell me that we're doing well considering that we've only just begun. Consider that 20% of a random sampling of 300 people on the internet had at least heard of OpenID, *before* [Google](http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2008/10/google-moves-towards-single-sign-on.html?ref=chrismessina.me), MySpace or Microsoft turned on their support for the protocol (MySpace [announced](http://developer.myspace.com/Community/blogs/devteam/archive/2008/07/24/openid-coming-to-a-myspace-profile-near-you.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me) their intention to support OpenID in July). Consider that nearly a year ago Marshall Kirkpatrick [sounded the deathknell](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/the%5Ftroubles%5Fwith%5Fopenid%5F20.php?ref=chrismessina.me) of what seemed like the forgone conclusion about OpenID: > Big Players are Dragging Their Feet ... Sharing User Info is a Whole Other Matter ... Public Facing Profiles are Anemic ... Ease of Use and Marketing Clarity Remain Low Priorities Consider that no concerted effort has been made to date to inform or educate the general web population about OpenID, or about the [problems](http://www.centernetworks.com/twitter-sheep-twitterank?ref=chrismessina.me) with [sharing your user credentials](http://blogs.zdnet.com/collaboration/?p=163&ref=chrismessina.me) [all over the web](http://mashable.com/2008/11/12/twitterrank/?ref=chrismessina.me), and that many of the large providers have yet to turn on their OpenID support (despite all coming to the table and agreeing that it's the way forward for identity on the web (save, as usual, Facebook, looking more Microsoftian by the day). Consider also that momentum to [rev the protocol](http://openid.net/pipermail/specs/2008-November/002435.html?ref=chrismessina.me) to [accommodate email addresses in OpenID](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/06/22/announcing-emailtoid-mapping-email-addresses-to-openids/?ref=chrismessina.me) is just now [gaining traction](http://slideshare.net/daveman692/openid-introduction-iiw2008b-presentation?ref=chrismessina.me). In other words, with areas of user education becoming obvious, with provider adoption starting to happen (vis-a-via MySpace demonstrating the value and prevalence of URL-based identifiers) and necessary usability improvements starting to take shape (both in terms of the OpenID and OAuth flows being combined, and in terms of email addresses becoming valid in OpenID flows), we're truly just getting started with making OpenID ready for mainstream audiences. It's been a hard slog so far, and it's bound to continue to be challenging, but the shared vision for where we're going gets clearer every time there's an Internet Identity Workshop. I plan to re-run this study every 3-6 months from this point forward to keep track of our progress. I hope that these numbers will shed some much-needed balanced light on the subject of OpenID awareness and adoption — both to demonstrate how far we have to go, and how far we've come. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[max](http://www.8bitkid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-12 22:21:41 thanks to you and brynn for doing this work! i wish the foundation was doing more to contribute tangible progress like this. i think it is critical that there is an increasing analytical focus on the open ecosystem, especially if we are ever to convey concrete benefits. i want to share an interesting statistic I learned at MySpace: % of active app users with a vanity url = 93.7% this means that we have about 30 million users who not only understand the basic concept of social applications, but also see their identity as being represented by a url. it is this statistic that really excites me about OpenID at MySpace, and makes me hopeful that when you run this study a year from now, that the results will be very different. **[Scott Blomquist](http://scott.blomqui.st/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-12 23:41:01 What was the basis for the rejection of the one bad data point? Merely curious. **[funky house](http://kennygrant.ca/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-12 23:58:10 I'm actually shocked by how many people knew what openID was. Maybe i live in a sheltered area, but most folks here have never heard of it. shrugs.. i will def check out the social web episode thank guys **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-13 09:15:13 @Max: I agree and wish there were more leadership coming from the foundation, but I think it's also a matter of demanding more from it. Nat from the Japan OIDF is going gangbusters -- we should take a hint! It will also be very interesting to rerun this study once people start seeing "MySpace OpenID" or preferrably "OpenID" as a consistent sign in option. @Scott: good question. I believe it was a nonsensicle response. Something like they had never heard of OpenID, didn't know what it was, but used it and had seen the logo. I think one of their their comments also suggested they weren't taking the survey seriously. **[Rod Begbie](http://groovymother.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-13 11:12:45 This 19.3% is lacking a baseline, so it's statistically irrelevant, sadly. As an example, you could have asked this question: Which of the following technologies have you heard of? \* Bluetooth \* World Wide Web \* OpenID \* Vericrypt \* SMS Note the non-existent option. Seeing how many people selected something that sounded A LITTLE BIT like something they MIGHT have heard of would allow you to subtract that percentage from the OpenID line, to give you a more realistic answer. (As I recall from my time at RhymesWithNose, the baseling of people claiming to have heard of a non-existent technology was usually around 12%, so that always got subtracted from the percentage who claimed to have heard of Blu-Ray or whatever we were really surveying about) **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-13 12:03:02 @Rod: you make a good point. Perhaps when we rerun the survey next time we'll insert a question like that. Thanks! **Todd** ¡ 2008-11-13 12:31:25 "...18.3% were unsure if they used it..." Ouch! That's like the worst one. Its so hard to understand, use, that many people don't even know. I am supposed to be a cheerleader for OpenID and even I can make it work half the time. I try to comment here, on this very blog, using my Yahoo ID and I get spun off to the Yahoo page that offers me a couple thousand characters of text and 124 character long string that is supposedly my "Open ID". Good grief Charlie Brown we have got to all get together and figure this out! **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-13 12:35:50 @Todd: Of course not all OpenID providers are created equal. It'll be curious to see how competition in the space will heat up and improve this situation. I'm sure email was similarly tricky and unreliable in the beginning too before people started really running their businesses on top of it. Yahoo went out of their way to ensure users' security and ability to be "non-correlatable"... but to ill effect it seems. You should try the OpenID provider built into the WordPress OpenID plugin, if only to see a slightly different user experience. ;) **Todd** ¡ 2008-11-13 15:11:39 Here's a representaion of what Yahoo provides me as an OpenID https://me.yahoo.com/ab/aJE6r472qdf6ud3yRjrw3yrq5rfwqt6f.0add So, liek iz sippoadz to commit dat teh memory? **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-13 15:28:45 @Todd: you know you can change that right? Just go to: http://openid.yahoo.com/ And then pick a new identifier: http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3028652276/ **[Brian Kissel](http://bkkissel.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-13 20:00:56 Great survey and findings Chris. I like the notion of doing longitudinal studies so we can see how awareness and usage is trending over time. Nat Sakimura of NRI has been doing this for over a year so far in Japan, we should be doing this across all major geographies as well. One request I have for your readership is what are the best ways for the OpenID Foundation and its members to get the word out on OpenID. As we know, there has been some press and analyst coverage on OpenID including the recent Wall St. Journal article. What can be done to get the word out beyond the blogging community. Clearly more RP adoption by mainstream websites is one of the most important objectives, but what else can be done? Looking forward to suggestions and recommendations. Cheers, Brian Kissel, OpenID Foundation Marketing Committee **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » Euphoria subsiding, now its down to business](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/11/euphoria-subsiding-now-its-down-to-business?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-13 21:49:58 \[...\] Chris Messina has put out an independent study on OpenID. Yahoo did one - with 8 female Yahoosters... \[...\] **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-14 06:45:40 @Todd you're not supposed to remember that... Yahoo users should use their yahoo email address (or just yahoo.com) as their OpenID. **[Brynn Evans](http://brynnevans.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-14 12:18:36 It's great to hear people's feedback to this survey. I wanted to note that this was not meant to be the best solution to learning about OpenID adoption. Chris & I were just trying to make some effort to complement previous OpenID usability studies. The Mechanical Turk "database" will surely have some bias (as will all convenient samples)---this is a common (yet valid) criticism. @Rod's point is even more valid: I actually hadn't thought of testing OpenID awareness against a baseline. My other concern going forward is if we continue to use MTurk for testing, our sample may become increasingly biased after having seen this survey posted in the first place. On the other hand, a number of users reported wanting to learn more...so in the end, this may be a great way to educate the community about OpenID! A final word on Mechanical Turk demographics: I've run several other studies on MTurk and can attest to the diversity (and general non-tech savvy) of the community. Although they tend to be slightly betted educated than your average American, they are definitely a different cohort than you people reading this post :) **[Dan Brickley](http://danbri.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-15 01:25:32 @Stephen Paul Weber, Re "Yahoo users should use their yahoo email address (or just yahoo.com) as their OpenID." That's an interesting point. Although the OpenID login process now allows me to put in the shorthand 'yahoo.com' instead of remembering my flickr URL, ... should I really consider 'yahoo.com' to be my OpenID? Isn't it your OpenID too? and the OpenID of every other Yahoo user. I can see this causing confusion... **[links for 2008-11-15 « Breyten’s Dev Blog](http://breyten.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/links-for-2008-11-15/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-15 03:04:25 \[...\] Independent study on OpenID awareness using Mechanical Turk (tags: citizen-centric web digital identity technology building familiarity google mechanical turk myspace openid survey usability yahoo) \[...\] **[OpenID - Still relatively unknown despite easy Open Source CMS integration | QLVR Version 0.7.0](http://www.qlvr.com/index.php/2008/11/15/openid-relatively-unknow/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-15 08:02:52 \[...\] on ZDNet by Joe Brockmeier on OpenID in my newsreader yesterday. Joe discusses references a survey about OpenID available at FactoryCity. A sniplet: The results of the survey, where 302 users responded (one response was rejected) \[...\] **[Statistical Entrails Reading « Identity Blogger](http://idlogger.wordpress.com/2008/11/17/statistical-entrails-reading/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-17 11:03:05 \[...\] 17, 2008 ¡ No Comments Paul Madsen points out this Chris Messina post about a study of OpenID usage and awareness among Mechanical Turk users. Paul \[...\] **[Ben Werdmuller » Who cares about OpenID awareness?](http://benwerd.com/2008/11/who-cares-about-openid-awareness/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-18 17:50:30 \[...\] It was conducted with a test group of just nine Yahoo! staff, so recently Chris Messina decided to research awareness using a survey conducted on Amazon Mechanical Turk. In effect, he paid 301 people two cents each to \[...\] **[????? ?? ????? ??? ????? OpenID | More Intelligent Web](http://moreintelligentweb.net/post/338?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-01 13:02:50 \[...\] ??????? ???????????? ????. Popularity: 1 ?????. Tagged with: \[ OpenID \[...\] **[Dan Brickley](http://danbri.org/words/author/danbri/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2011-01-02 04:52:19 Hey Chris! "I plan to re-run this study every 3-6 months" Did you? Any more plans in this direction? **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2011-01-02 15:51:49 Ah, wow. I dropped the ball on this one, eh? Thanks for following up but no, I never did re-run this survey. It might be worth it to revisit this idea in 2011, but I think the motivation for this exercise largely depends on where the OpenID Foundation wants to take the brand — and whether consumer awareness matters as much to its proponents as it had the potential to, say, in 2008. ### Lightweight access PINs: a modest proposal for enabling OpenID in desktop and mobile apps URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/lightweight-access-pins-a-modest-proposal-for-enabling-openid-in-desktop-and-mobile-apps/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:06.000Z While the news that [Google is now an OpenID Provider](http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2008/10/google-moves-towards-single-sign-on.html?ref=chrismessina.me) was generally [welcomed](http://www.8bitkid.com/2008/10/29/a-big-week-for-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me), a common chorus decrying their support (along with others large OPs like Yahoo, Microsoft and others) at best as half-hearted, at worst as [ruining OpenID](http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/10/30/the-single-sign-on-war-will-ruin-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) has revealed a significant barrier to such large providers becoming relying parties (even [beyond usability](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/10/28/openid-usability-is-not-an-oxymoron/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Eric Sachs (Google Security Team) [writes](http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2008/10/moving-another-step-closer-to-single.html?ref=chrismessina.me): > One other question that a lot of people asked yesterday is when a large provider like Google will become a relying party. There is one big problem that stands in the way of doing that, but fortunately it is more of a technology problem than a usability issue. That problem is that rich-client apps (desktop apps and mobile apps) are hard-coded to ask a user for their username and password. As an example, all Google rich-client apps would break if we supported federated login for our consumer users, and in fact they do break for the large number of our enterprise E-mail outsourcing customers who run their own identity provider, and for which Google is a relying party today. This problem with rich-client apps also affects other sites like Plaxo who are already relying parties. Fortunately there is a solution, and [it was developed specifically](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/09/21/announcing-oauth-10-public-draft-1/?ref=chrismessina.me) because Ma.gnolia ran into this problem when it became an OpenID relying party. The result, nine months in the making, was [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). Eric even [recognizes](http://oauthgoog.blogspot.com/2008/10/googles-openid-idp-is-now-live-for.html?ref=chrismessina.me) this: > We need standard open-source components on as many platforms as possible to enable those rich-client apps to support OAuth. That includes a lot more platforms then just Windows and Mac. The harder part is mobile devices (Blackberry, Symbian, Windows Mobile, iPhone, and yes even Android), and other Internet connected devices like Tivos, Apple TVs, Playstations, etc. that have rich-client apps that ask users for their passwords to access services like Youtube, Google photos, etc. If we build these components, they will be useful not only to Google, but also to any other relying parties which have rich-client apps or exposes APIs, and it will also help enterprise SaaS vendors like Salesforce. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2987922552/?ref=chrismessina.me)As I've been thinking about this problem, I've come to see as an intermediate approach to full-on delegated authorization a simpler, perhaps more familiar approach that would be relatively easy to implement given common interface patterns today. For comparison, Pownce's iPhone app [originally used out-of-band browser-based authentication](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/07/11/oauth-for-the-iphone-pownceapp/?ref=chrismessina.me), leading to a swarm of user criticism resulting in [a compromised solution](http://immike.net/blog/2008/09/08/oauth-on-the-iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me) that required embedding a web browser in the app. Less than ideal. In my proposal, **rather than ask for a user's password, an easier-to-remember OP-issued numerical PIN would be used to authenticate requests**. Better is that this approach is already supported in OAuth, it's just not widely used yet (though is *similar* to how Flickr [authorizes mobile clients](http://www.flickr.com/services/api/auth.spec.html?ref=chrismessina.me)). The basic concept is that you'd have one password (or other strong authentication method) for your primary OpenID account and you'd have one (or more) PINs that you would use to access your account remotely — perhaps in limited risk scenarios or where (again) the full browser-based OAuth flow is not possible or warranted. Although I initially opposed FriendFeed's use of [Remote Keys](http://friendfeed.com/api/faq?ref=chrismessina.me#remotekey), I now think that there's some merit to this approach, as long as the underlying mechanism uses standard OAuth calls. There are plenty of holes in this approach, but insomuch as it enables an existing pattern to be phased out gently, I think it offers at least the foundation of an idea that could be useful. It also could be used as a counter-balance to some of the [current thinking on federated login flows with OAuth](http://sites.google.com/site/oauthgoog/UXFedLogin/desktopapps?ref=chrismessina.me). Consider these three sign in boxes for comparison: **Full OAuth** ![Full OAuth](http://img.skitch.com/20081030-nisn8fc2uenjrw864uai9xma68.png) **Lightweight PIN access** ![pin-access](http://img.skitch.com/20081030-nu6aiefybrbff24hx29ixret25.png) **Traditional Password** ![traditional password](http://img.skitch.com/20081030-cr7i4w8ns6881j4ctmujet54sm.png) Thoughts welcome. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Praveen Alavilli** ¡ 2008-10-30 16:52:17 hmm why not an SMS message that tells the user what the application is trying to do and asks to reply back typing "OK" to approve. Why another "secret" PIN that the users need to remember in addition to their passwords. If we do not want to make some users pay for the SMS, we can use email (most devices provide access to your email) or even an automated phone call to ask for user confirmation. We talked about this at the last IIW as a possible extension to OAuth but we never wrote anything down. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-30 19:40:02 @Praveen: Yeah, one of my ideas that [I've suggested before](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/05/17/the-openid-mobile-experience-part-ii/?ref=chrismessina.me) is that when an OpenID request is made, a smart OP will detect that you're in a mobile-like (limited) environment and send you a PIN via SMS, or, as you suggested, ask you to confirm (via a Y or N response) a particular action. The reason for the PIN is that the latency of SMS can really kill a sign on experience... not to mention that not everyone can provide SMS-based messages. As for sending a token via email, in the case of Gmail/webmail, if you don't have tabs, you're still exiting your flow, in which case you might as well do full on OAuth. One other aspect of the PIN idea is that you could set up, say, more than one PIN... each with different types of pre-set permissions... like "read private data", "delete one item", "send me email", etc... If you keep your PINs simple, this could work, though it is a bit of a lead-user/uber-geek idea. **[Martin Atkins](http://mart.degeneration.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-31 09:21:49 I'm probably treading old ground here, but this looks like it's only a few steps away from a bluetooth-like model where you "pair" your device with your account using a \*one-time\* PIN issued by the consumer out of band. You'd go to the site in a browser and request a PIN, and then enter that into the mobile app. It can then use the PIN to request an OAuth token. The dependency on a browser is still there, of course. I'm not sure how much traction this approach would get in practice. **[George Fletcher](http://practicalid.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-31 12:11:50 As a user, I think I'd prefer getting an SMS (even if it takes me away from the interface) because then I know that only I can get the code from the SP. For a hacker to even attempt to guess my PIN, they'd need to know that I was attempting to authenticate. If I get an SMS every time someone tries to authorize access to my account I can take action because I know it's happening. In the use case above, a hacker could attempt to guess the lightweight PIN. In this case, there is no out-of-band notification to the user. So there is less likely hood that the user would know they are being hacked. I suppose that could be mitigated with SP notification via email, SP rate-limiting and allowing only one attempt per un-authorized request token. For devices like phones with only a numeric keypad, and set-top-box units like TiVo, I'd still prefer a mechanism that used my laptop to set it up. I realize there are a lot of people where the only connected device they have is a cell-phone so this approach doesn't work for everyone. Maybe we need a couple of "best practices" for this kind of UX and then allow the apps to determine which one is best for their environment. **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-31 12:34:41 Is the "problem" with full OAuth just that people get confused when the browser opens? Is this a problem on the desktop as well, or only on the phones for some reason? **Praveen Alavilli** ¡ 2008-10-31 13:18:41 Don't think it's a problem on the desktop as this is something the users are already used to - take a look the way the web versions (flash) of Yahoo Messenger or Google Talk work. **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » Halloween blogging ‘08](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/10/halloween-blogging-08?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-31 16:23:09 \[...\] Chris Messina has a proposal for light weight access PINs for OpenID \[...\] **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-31 21:00:01 @Martin: Yep, just like pairing your account session to your actual account. Or at least the flow would be similar. However, it breaks when you have to open a browser window -- that said, a PIN might be easier to type/remember on a phone, so the PIN concept might still be useful. @George: I do think that we need to be able to address the limitations of multiple devices, some of which won't or can't be upgraded and will continue to rely on a username and some shared secret (aka password or PIN) to handle authentication. The point of the PIN is to address those situations -- so that you can still use your favorite identifier without using your main account password. A premise here of the PIN model is that certain "low risk" actions could be performed with the PIN -- but other actions -- resetting your password, deleting your account, publishing content (maybe) would not be allowed. This would be determined on a service by service basis (probably by the service provider itself or in collaboration with the user -- "allow these actions to be performed with only PIN authentication"). @Stephen: it's not just user confusion. It's that you need to address the situation where you have an identifier (an OpenID) but no password to access your account. A PIN approach would be similar to what 37 Signals uses in Basecamp feeds, etc. **Bill de hÓra** ¡ 2008-11-01 09:01:47 Chris, an interesting idea that still has one serious problem; it assumes the mobile (or desktop) login isn't the first usage. SMS pincode latency is (imo) less of a problem than bouncing users in and out of browsers. I think if Oauth is going to work, it has to stop assuming there's a browser in the loop. That or accept it's not a general purpose model. **[Joseph Smarr](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-02 07:09:23 Chris-this is a great discussion to get started! There are lots of cases where you just \*can't\* pop up a web browser during auth (many mobile phones, set top boxes, etc.) so you need \*some\* form of "direct auth" for accounts, and if those accounts are RP accounts, today you're screwed. Something like a PIN + direct-auth-api to the OP seems like the only solution, though it won't work for 2-factor/strong-auth situations. But even if everyone agreed to offer such APIs, you're left with a UI problem: all of these UIs currently ask users for "username/password" or "email/password" since today most sites have their own login database. I think we need some creative solutions for how/when to ask for "OpenID/PIN" and what form that takes. There's also the issue of how/when users know to get a PIN, and do they remember it, and how temporary/hackable/etc it is. But this problem is not going away, and it's going to prevent many large services from becoming RPs if we don't solve it, so let's keep this going, and let's have a session on this at IIW. Thanks, js ### OpenID usability is not an oxymoron URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/openid-usability-is-not-an-oxymoron/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:47.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/56624456@N00/2960562252/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Julie Zhou](http://www.facebook.com/people/Julie%5FZhou/869) of Facebook discusses usability findings from Facebook Connect. [Photo](http://www.flickr.com/photos/56624456@N00/2960562252/?ref=chrismessina.me) Š John McCrea. All rights reserved.[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2958164207/?ref=chrismessina.me)Monday last week marked [the first](http://openid.net/2008/10/21/the-first-openid-user-experience-summit/?ref=chrismessina.me) ever [OpenID UX Summit](http://sites.google.com/site/oauthgoog/UXFedLogin/09nov-uxsummit?ref=chrismessina.me) at Yahoo! in Sunnyvale with over 40 in attendance. Representatives came from MySpace, Facebook, Google, Yahoo!, Vidoop, Janrain, Six Apart, AOL, Chimp, Magnolia, Microsoft, Plaxo, Netmesh, Internet 2 and Liberty Alliance to debate and discuss how best to make implementations of the protocol easier to use and more familiar. [John McCrea](http://therealmccrea.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) covered [the significance of the summit](http://www.techcrunchit.com/2008/10/22/facebook-connect-and-openid-relationship-status-%E2%80%9Cit%E2%80%99s-complicated%E2%80%9D/?ref=chrismessina.me) on TechCrunchIT (and recognized Facebook's welcomed participation) and has a [good overall summary](http://therealmccrea.com/2008/10/20/live-blogging-the-openidoauth-ux-summit/?ref=chrismessina.me) on his blog. While the summit was a long-overdue step towards addressing the clear usability issues directly inhibiting the spread of OpenID, there are four additional areas that I think need more attention. I'll address each separately. ### Make it easier! Overwhelmingly criticism of OpenID has been leveraged by developers and web users alike against OpenID's ease of use. For developers, implementing OpenID is confusing and cumbersome, and often tacked on as an afterthought to appease annoying early adopters (like me) who badger them to support the protocol. Even those who support the protocol report little upside, compared with something like [Facebook Connect](http://wiki.developers.facebook.com/index.php/Facebook%5FConnect?ref=chrismessina.me), which brings with it richer aspects of someone's profile and [social graph](http://wiki.developers.facebook.com/index.php/Friend%5FLinking:%5FConnecting%5FYour%5FUsers%E2%80%99%5FAccounts%5Fwith%5FTheir%5FFacebook%5FAccounts?ref=chrismessina.me). For web users, OpenID is [confusing](http://lifehacker.com/5064261/is-openid-too-confusing?ref=chrismessina.me) and frustrating, resulting in what I call "OpenID double registration taxation" — where a user, immediately following OpenID authentication, is prompted by the relying party (RP) to supply, and then verify, their email address. Why bother with OpenID if they're going to have to go through the old school registration process anyway? Where's the benefit in that? On this latter point, we probably won't make much headway until email harvesting goes out of vogue, which won't happen until there's a better way for sites to spam/bacn their members (*bacn*: "email you want, just not right now"), or until OpenID Providers (OPs) more consistently pass on profile attributes via SREG, Attribute Exchange or [PoCo](http://portablecontacts.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) (or until people realize that email is dead to the MySpace generation). Unfortunately, mandating that providers pass on profile data is something that cannot, and probably should not, be mandated by the OpenID spec, even though in comparison, Facebook Connect always provides *some* data. Fortunately OPs like Yahoo! are starting to improve this situation, [by enabling opt-in controls](http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2008/10/16/TheNewYahooProfileAndDoingDataPortabilityTheRightWay.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me) that enable users to share their data more easily. If this trend continues, we may see fewer "double taxation registrations" and smoother OpenID login flows. Still, for both end users and developers, OpenID *must* become easier to use and more obvious to implement. Fortunately, there is now fairly widespread recognition within the OpenID community of [specific issues](http://openid.net/2008/08/10/challenges-facing-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) and a strong willingness to address them. To that end, for example, advocacy for email addresses to be [used as OpenIDs](http://www.barnraiser.org/openid%5Fusability%5Fpart%5F1:%5Fthe%5Femail%5Faddress%5Fversus%5Fthe%5Fopenid%5Furi?ref=chrismessina.me) is [growing](http://www.apparently.me.uk/18123.html?ref=chrismessina.me), providing web users the convenience of [reusing a familiar identifier](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/06/20/email-to-id-my-openid-is-an-email-address/?ref=chrismessina.me), and affording developers a way to "upgrade" legacy userbases that may have been keyed to unique email addresses. It is my opinion that enabling an email address to be used as a "[hint](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/06/22/announcing-emailtoid-mapping-email-addresses-to-openids/?ref=chrismessina.me)" that resolves to a valid OpenID URL is a necessary step to dislodge one of the main nettles against OpenID. I also believe that this step is necessary to bridge the impending generation gap that's sure to develop when MySpace [flips the switch on their OpenID provider](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/openid%5Fday%5Fcoming%5Fsoon%5Ffor%5Fmys.php?ref=chrismessina.me), enabling over a hundred million *URL-based* OpenIDs. Privacy concerns notwithstanding (remember, most RPs already demand a verified email address anyway), there are **few** reasons *not* to use email addresses for OpenID. I'd rather just [make it so](http://www.apparently.me.uk/18285.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and let people pick for themselves how they feel most comfortable identifying themselves on services and move on to meatier issues. ### Branding and marketing ![openid-icon-128](http://img.skitch.com/20081029-rexifruedc5r7339mj7i7gyr6r.png) On that note, [Max Engel](http://www.8bitkid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) from MySpace brought up some important points about what it would mean to enable email addresses as OpenIDs. Soon to be one of the largest providers of URL-based OpenIDs (i.e. *myspace.com/factoryjoe*), he's concerned that people will only implement support for email addresses if the OpenID spec provides a way to translate email addresses into URLs. This is a valid concern, but one that can be mitigated both in the language of the spec, and in the libraries that perform OpenID authentication. Here is where I see an opportunity to finally establish OpenID as a brand unto itself, where the word "OpenID" can and should come to mean something to people (though of course not without an ongoing substantial and sustained marketing effort, lead by the [OIDF](http://openid.net/foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me), but primarily prosecuted through grassroots and community "[spreading vectors](http://spreadopenid.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)"). Here's why: people have learned, over time, that "email" is easier to say (and shorter to type) than "electronic mail". When you ask someone for their "email address", most people on the web can give you the answer you're looking for. We're a long way off from the same kind of familiarity with OpenID, but ultimately you have to start somewhere. And because "URL-based identifier", "blog address", "profile link", "home site" — ad infinitum — probably don't mean much to anyone (let alone the same thing) there's an opportunity to converge on a term that's easy to say and captures the concept fairly well (or well enough) and is otherwise not known. It's also important to consider that not all URLs are in fact OpenID-enabled. This point alone is enough to convince me of the importance of the OpenID name and the potential for the brand. When you ask someone to sign in to your site, you can be pretty sure they'll know what their email address is. If you ask them for a URL, and they provide you with a perfectly valid address but one that is not OpenID-enabled, they will not be able to sign in. If we can make it clear that "having an OpenID" is [something special](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/01/03/its-high-time-we-moved-to-url-based-identifiers/?ref=chrismessina.me), and that not all URLs *are* OpenIDs, then we can begin to create the kind of awareness necessarily to confidently ask people for an OpenID, and have them respond appropriately. It is here that I disagree with [Scott Kveton](http://kveton.com/blog?ref=chrismessina.me), who has [long argued](http://kveton.com/blog/2008/05/14/solutions-more-than-technology/?ref=chrismessina.me) that his mom didn't "get SMTP, they got email". I appreciate his sentiment and used to agree with his argument in principle, but now that I've thought about the fact that only "special URLs" *are* OpenIDs, I think it's worthwhile to give that class of URLs a specific name. ### Consistency Furthermore, one of the greatest threats to the viability of OpenID is an inconsistent user experience. Unfortunately, this manifests itself both when signing in to a malfunctioning relying party, or attempting OpenID authentication using an OP that an RP doesn't support (e.g. [Microsoft Health Vault](http://healthvault.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [currently](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/10/02/janrain-openid-could-be-the-key-to-your-health-vault/?ref=chrismessina.me) supports [three OPs](https://account.healthvault.com/help.aspx?topicid=faq&ref=chrismessina.me#OpenIDProviders)). Another manifestation of this problem is that OPs are not required to consume OpenIDs. Though there's validity in this complaint, change should not be forced at the technical level, because it really *should* be up to each individual provider to determine whose credentials it's willing to accept. Now that the majors (save Facebook) have all [gotten into the OP game](http://blog.whatfettle.com/2008/10/28/another-tuesday-another-openid-provider/?ref=chrismessina.me) (most [recently](http://self-issued.info/?p=89&ref=chrismessina.me) [Microsoft](http://dev.live.com/blogs/devlive/archive/2008/10/27/421.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)), it really just seems a matter of politics and inertia that none have moved to accept the OpenIDs of their competitors in any significant way (that is, neither Yahoo, Google, or Microsoft allow authenticating against their respective services using one of the other's OpenIDs — *and no, Blogger doesn't count and Google hasn't really released their OP yet*). While I'm sympathetic to [Allen Tom's](http://allentom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) argument that more OPs is frankly better for the web, I'm not convinced that a Visa card is all that useful if none of the major department stores will accept it. I certainly respect large providers' desires to both minimize the potential for abuse and to wade through the legal morass around identity technologies, but I can't see how becoming an OpenID relying party is any worse than letting people create accounts with arbitrary (and untrusted) email addresses. Hopefully through both [political pressure](http://demand.openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and success-in-the-wild over time, we will see the majors become relying parties to their competitors' OpenIDs for accessing accounts, and over a longer period of time, enable the use of personal/private OpenID providers or delegated OpenIDs (e.g. *factoryjoe.com*). Should we see this situation change, I think it'll bring about a watershed migration to patterns established by the majors — leading to consistency in the OpenID sign up and sign in experiences, and consistency in what people expect of OpenID account federation, leading to increased credibility and use of OpenID generally. ### Leadership But let's get real: all these issues are going to require, above all else, solid foresight and leadership and a commitment to pushing through the thorny political issues that can often scuttle the best intentioned technologies (consider HD-DVD and Blu-Ray). For reasons beyond my grasp, the OpenID Foundation has not met up to my expectations of leadership. Despite considerable progress in some areas, large swathes of stagnation have come to subsume many of the organization's initiatives. International progress, as overseen by the OIDF, is lacking, except where local chapters (such as in Japan and in some European cities) have taken matters into their own hands. Code improvements to the OpenID libraries has languished and implementation of OpenID in various platforms and open source projects seems non-existent. Marketing simply isn't happening and even if it were, I'm not convinced that there's consensus on what we *should* market. And only now, after research from [Yahoo](http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2008/10/open%5Fid%5Fresearch.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Google](http://sites.google.com/site/oauthgoog/UXFedLogin?ref=chrismessina.me) confirm what many critics have said for a long time is there finally work being done to address OpenID's usability pitfalls. Now, I realize that technologists don't always make the best politicians (or designers or marketers for that matter) but that we haven't seen the kind of OpenID visibility, credibility, innovation and adoption in North America that [has been seen in Japan](http://openid.net/pipermail/general/2008-October/005890.html?ref=chrismessina.me) suggests to me that we're either on the wrong course, or no apparent course at all. Worse, I fear that certain companies are already dividing up the proverbial "identity pie" before the damn thing's even been put into the oven — a situation that needs to be addressed immediately by prioritizing a series of steps that the OIDF will take to establish OpenID in the marketplace, set firm how it will support individuals and companies alike, plot out its administrative and advocacy agenda for [2009](http://wiki.openid2009.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), make clear its budgetary outlook, and list the marketing, design, education and research initiatives it plans for the coming year. Without a clear path forward, I think that a lot of otherwise positive energy will devolve into useless sniping and infighting. Without strong leadership, we risk marginalizing many of the gains we've made to date in establishing OpenID as a core building block of the open social web. For comparison, consider the progress that has been made with [OpenSocial](http://opensocial.org/?ref=chrismessina.me): only a year ago, people [dismissed it](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/318532.html?ref=chrismessina.me) as a "Gadgets API" (which, arguably it was). Since then, a large [*coalition of the willing*](http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/partners.html?ref=chrismessina.me) has gathered to support and develop the protocol (which is still far from perfect, but demonstrates steady progress towards a goal), even convincing that old salt [David Recordon](http://davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) that what they're doing is decent. When OpenSocial 1.0 is released (they're at [0.8.1](http://opensocial-resources.googlecode.com/svn/spec/0.8/opensocial/?ref=chrismessina.me) right now), there will be a distributed social graph with over 350 million potential customers available to developers (compared with around 100 million on Facebook). While David is right to point out, with Microsoft coming on board, [there'll be well beyond half a billion OpenIDs in the wild](http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/10/microsoft-releases-a-technology-preview-of-openid-for-windows-live.html?ref=chrismessina.me), that doesn't mean that our work is finished. Rather, it's just begun, and David sums up our situation fairly well: > While this is great news from Microsoft, real web-scale adoption of technologies always faces a chicken-and-egg problem between developers and vendors. Developers don't want to adopt a technology without buy-in from platform providers and platform providers don't want to support a technology if developers won't use it. We've largely been able to successfully avoid this concern with OpenID as it grew from roots in an open source community with lots of people and companies involved in making OpenID what it is today. There are now well beyond half a billion OpenIDs available on the web which means we can mark the first phase of OpenID adoption, platform support, as a success. The next phase of developer adoption will not be measured in the number of OpenIDs or sites that support it, but rather user experience, accessibility, and seamlessness of integration into a wide variety of applications and experiences. To that end, there will be an [Internet Identity Workshop](http://iiw.idcommons.net/Iiw2008b?ref=chrismessina.me) in Mountain View November 11-12 where many of the primary participants in the ongoing identity conversations will converge. Historically the event has been one of the most productive in the space and with all the recent OpenID news lately, I'm hopeful that many of the issues I've mentioned above will be addressed and progress will continue to be made. I will continue to be a staunch advocate of OpenID and think that it's best times are still to come, but not without a redoubling of focused effort around concrete and ambitious goals. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Guillaume](http://lebleu.org/openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-28 21:13:23 I hope I understood correctly, but if so, I have doubts about the relevancy of "OpenID" as a consumer brand. For Joe the User, an Open ID is an "ID that is open", is that something he wants? don't think so. This is a great name for early adopters but not what is needed to go beyond 500M users. If your goal is to seek broader adoption, my feel is that our best hope is actually not to position Open ID as a brand, but to let implementers use their existing brands ("Yahoo! ID", "Google Account", etc.). This is ultimately where their sustainable defensible can be built, especially by establishing partnerships around their brand, rather than the "OpenID" brand. We might see first bilateral agreements between majors (ex. Google accepting OpenID-enabled Yahoo ID and vice-versa) before we see them accepting ANY OpenID provider. In the meantime, there are some great opportunities for independent OpenID providers to develop OpenID-enabled consumer brands that have meaning/value to users and are able to strike the right partnerships. I think Clickpass understands that and came with a name that has actual meaning and value to users: pass/password in one click or click instead of password. **[Max Engel](http://www.8bitkid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-28 21:30:17 i completely agree on the importance of enabling e-mails as a valid OpenID, and believe that we should ultimately empower the user to enable the identifier he or she most strongly identifies with. at myspace, we are uniquely positioned to work with OpenID because we have a user-base that already thinks of themselves as being represented by a URL. if you ask any myspace user what their vanity URL is, there is a very good chance they'll know it. however, beyond us and the blogging community, most users from major OP's don't know what their URL is, even if many of them actually already possess an OpenID. that is why, even with the excitement around Microsoft becoming an OP, a user with valid OpenID doesn't equal a user leveraging their OpenID. it is this disconnect that e-mail-based OpenID can help to alleviate. further, we need to be flexible enough to include other identifiers that might emerge, such as cell phone numbers. it is this eventual freedom to use the identifier you identify with as your OpenID that necessitates that the foundation take a more proactive role in marketing. it is only once the brand has been strengthened that users will understand that their URL, e-mail, or type foo identifier is something special. people know they have a credit card number, and they know who gives it to them, even if they aren't being expressly asked for their "Visa" or "Mastercard". we need that type of recognition. this is certainly shaping up to be an exciting couple of weeks, and am hoping that all of us, as a community, can come together to solve these fundamental problems of usability so that our users can be as excited about this technology as we all are. **[Luigi Montanez](http://luigimontanez.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-28 21:30:40 URLs are already thought to be places, not people. Google.com is a place. ESPN.com is a place. But then factoryjoe.com is a place, except when it's not. While email addresses are not thought to be people, everyone understands that a person is at the other end of them. Same thing with a phone number, or a Twitter username. An OpenID needs to look like it belongs to a person, so it can't look like a URL. But it shouldn't look like exactly like an email address either, because it's not one. Here's what I propose: @factoryjoe.com @johndoe.live.com @stanlee.yahoo.com It's something new, yet at the same time contains very familiar elements. **[D.J. Capelis](http://capelis.dj/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-28 21:52:25 Hrm... I'm not sure this is right either, but there are things to think about here. The largest problem seems to be consumers. (There's always something wrong with them, we don't have enough, they're not usable enough, etc... it's getting a bit old.) A good amount of code could improve that slightly, but there's still some stuff we're not really doing there. SREG was a welcome extension to the spec, but is also fairly limited in scope. As for mapping e-mails to URLs, wow that would be ugly. Doable though Weren't inames supposed to take over the world anyways? :-P (Not sure how I really feel about inames, part of me thinks they're a terrible idea, another part of me feels they might be alright.) On the upside, for me, I don't have to care about inames because my domain (which doubles as my identity thanks to OpenID) is already better than an iname. Presumably we should be offering the same capability to non-technical users. **[D.J. Capelis](http://capelis.dj/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-28 21:53:05 Also it appears that your OpenID code is buggy. Testing to figure it out... **[D.J. Capelis](http://capelis.dj/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-28 21:54:15 Hrm, weird... please moderate this comment out and the one above it. Might be an issue with the server I was using too. (Delegated id to livejournal, so presumably, should follow the spec.) **[Kevin Marks](http://epeus.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-28 22:45:04 The irony of this comment requiring an email is not lost on me... Thanks for your kind words about OpenSocial, but I'd like to correct a couple of points. OpenSocial already supports well over 350 million users, and with both Yahoo and LinkedIn launching support today, that number has gone up even further. Telling people to wait for OpenSocial 1.0 is a misunderstanding of the spec process - OpenSocial from 0.7 onwards has been ready for App developers to use, and 0.8 adds the REST APIs needed to federate identity properly - this is a numbering scheme like Microfomats, not like Atom. **[Silicon Florist’s links arrangement for October 28 » Silicon Florist](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/10/28/silicon-florists-links-arrangement-for-october-28/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-28 23:02:07 \[...\] OpenID usability is not an oxymoron | FactoryCity Chris Messina writes “Monday last week marked the first ever OpenID UX Summit at Yahoo! in Sunnyvale with over 40 in attendance. Representatives came from MySpace, Facebook, Google, Yahoo!, Vidoop, Janrain, Six Apart, AOL, Chimp, Magnolia, Microsoft, Plaxo, Netmesh, Internet 2 and Liberty Alliance to debate and discuss how best to make implementations of the protocol easier to use and more familiar.” \[...\] **[Tom Scott](http://derivadow.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 02:39:51 Sort of echoing @Guillaume it does seem to me that from a branding perspective the name implies an affordance that is backwards. Most people don't want their ID to be open because they will tend to think that that means it isn't secure. Open means different things to different parts of society, depending on your perspective. I work at the BBC and it surprises me how many people who use our services (and non-tech folk inside) don't grok what OpenID is. It tends to be thought of as a central service which people and services can use. I'm not sure I fully understand why that is, although I have some ideas. It seems to me that the name needs to be more people focused. Needs to imply that it's something that you, as a user, own. Although I don't know what that would be :) It also strikes me that it might help if OPs carried a standard icon i.e. your OpenID URI had the OpenID icon, a bit like your credit card carries a Visa logo. RPs could then carry branding that mapped back to that i.e. 'OpenID accepted here' even if that were also branded Yahoo! Facebook or whatever. You know a bit like shops do with Visa. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 04:21:01 @Guillame: I understand your concern, but for lack of something better, I think OpenID can be made to be about "choice" and "freedom", rather than about "insecurity" or other meanings of "open". Consider that "open source" is now, I think, mostly understood to mean that the "underlying code is available". Firefox dealt with this issue, and over time, the word becomes a token for something else -- regardless of whether it starts out being a perfect fit or not. As for consumer brands being what consumers interact with -- I think there needs to be a balance struck, but a weak OpenID brand will not help us if one of those major brands screws up and makes OpenID look bad. Instead, OpenID needs to be understood as an enabling technology that can be used to make things better -- and that your favorite brands use it to make their services more useful -- but that anyone can use it too, without permission. There should absolutely be an opportunity for independent brands to emerge as OpenID providers, but to your last point, if we rely on awareness of phrases like "Google Account", "Yahoo! ID" and so on, how will a scrappy startup like Clickpass ever get on the login screen? That's why it's critical that a neutral brand like OpenID become the thing in and of itself -- making way for such independent providers to earn their way up the ladder of success. @Max: Thanks for your comments and support. I'm glad that you see and support both sides of this issue. I agree too that being liberal about what constitutes a valid OpenID is key -- so long as (to my current thinking) we can resolve the identifier to a URL on the web (that goes for phone numbers too). Visa and MasterCard didn't achieve awareness overnight; so too will it be for OpenID. @Luigi: I disagree. You prove it with your own domain name, as well as mentioning mine. And what's the different between remembering factoryjoe.com and twitter.com/factoryjoe? I think that for different people, different identifiers will "look like" people -- for some of my friends, myspace.com/factoryjoe looks like me; for others, it might be chris@factoryjoe.com. Ultimately, I should be able to think of myself in either of those ways, and validate that I own those identifiers if indeed you can find me at the other end of them. As to your proposal -- I'm not sure that'll gain much traction in the marketplace. Take a look at XRI and I-Names and then let me know what you think. @D.J.: Sorry about OpenID on my site. It has been acting wonky lately! For mapping emails, check out [EAUT](http://eaut.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). We already have a spec for doing this, and apparently @yahoo.com email addresses already work with existing OpenID implementations. @Kevin: indeed. A limitation of WordPress perhaps? And thanks also for your clarifications about OpenSocial. Hard to stay on top of it these days! @Tom: Again, I take your point but don't necessarily agree that "open" \*must\* mean insecure. This is why I think marketing is so important -- as well as choosing our messages and language well. Frankly, Passport was a pretty good name for this kind of thing, but as you know, that name's been used already. ;) OPs and RPs typically do carry the OpenID logo, but it's mostly an accidental convention, rather than a standard approach. This is something that came out of the UX Summit that we hope to address in some UX guidelines for OpenID. +1 to the "OpenID accepted here" branding concept. Exactly what I was thinking! **[Luigi Montanez](http://luigimontanez.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 06:26:48 Thanks for the reference to i-names. I knew they had used the =, but I didn't know they were also using the @. I'm not sure exactly why they differentiate for a business though. Back to my anti-URL screed: URLs as identifiers works for geeks: people who have had the experience of buying their own domain name, buying hosting, setting up DNS, setting up a blog/CMS, etc. We understand how we can take ownership of, and control over, a domain name. But that doesn't extend to normal people. Normal people think of URLs as websites. Normal people, when asked to log in to a website using OpenID, must type in another website. That makes utterly no sense to the uninitiated. We're asking people to change the definition of the deeply-ingrained concept that a URL is a website. Until OpenID can look like an identifier that people can associate with solely being an identifier and nothing else, it will never be adopted by the masses. **[David, biologeek](http://www.biologeek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 07:13:45 About OpenID usability, I had drafted some forms last week in order to be consistent with Google report: http://www.biologeek.com/ergonomie,openid/interfaces-didentificationenregistrement-openid-et-ergonomie/ It's in French but forms are in English, let me know if it makes sense. About Microsoft announcement, I second Max Engel, half a billion OpenID is useless if there are no consumers and if those users do not even know that they've got one! Now how to improve it, EAUT is certainly a good thing but as Guillaume points out, OpenID doesn't mean anything, OnlineID or WebID or NumericalID is much more descriptive. Initiatives like SelectorID are interesting to forget the problematic url part too. Anyway, I'm still convinced that OpenID should be provided by states like physical identity cards, this way they can be certified. But our administration is so slow... **[elliottcable](http://elliottcable.name/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 07:42:40 I, personally, am really, \*really\* annoyed when an OpenID supporting site tries to use the email address from my provider for me. The email address I will use differs from site to site (for instance, factoryjoe.com at elliottcable dot com is what I typed above to comment here). I often am ushered straight from the 'enter your identity URI' to 'you're registered!' without so much as a chance to check the data that my OpenID provider offered. Just my 2 cents. **[Brian Kissel](http://bkkissel.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 08:16:55 Today there are roughly 6 user experience (UX) approaches being deployed or proposed to help facilitate adoption and usage of OpenID: http://blog.janrain.com/2008/10/openid-user-experience-ux-summit.html. From the website operators and end users we've been talking with, they are most interested in faster and easier registration and login, not necessarily the OpenID brand. Longer term, they also are excited about the overall data portability aspects of "user centric identity" including OAuth, Portable Contacts, MySpace Data Availablity, Facebook Connect, etc. But we have to get the basic authentication piece done first and intuitively. Some end users understand and prefer the OpenID URL approach. Some haven't been educated about what OpenID is and how to use it, but might if properly educated. Some would prefer to just "click a button" from a known account (AOL, Yahoo, Google, MySpace, Facebook, Hotmail, etc.) Perhaps we need to find a UX model that accommodates the needs of all these user personas, but is optimized and targeted at the largest potential user base with a progressive interaction model that evolves from mass market to specialized users. IMHO, approach #5 of the 6 approaches comes the closest to doing this, but we all need to hear from more website operators (not OpenID providers) and end users. The other thing to remember is that the most challenging part of the OpenID UX is the first time registration/login. In the best practice for OpenID UX, the website operator cookies a user's preferences, so that the next time they return to a site, their preferred UX and OpenID provider is pre-populated. This should then enable "single click login," which is clearly what website operators and end users would like to achieve. The OpenID Foundation and its members are actively soliciting feedback from website operators and end users, so please keep the comments coming. Cheers, Brian Kissel, OpenID Foundation Marketing and Customer Research Committees **[Desarae Veit](http://www.dveit.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 08:22:56 I think it can be an oxymoron especially when it doesn't work for your sign in--the part where it's their to streamline that portion of your online experience. Plus its tough to explain this to a friend who is not so tech literate. I hate going to another site to log in. **[Do we have room for 6 billion rock stars? « EverythingCU.com World 2.0 Adventure](http://everythingcu.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/do-we-have-room-for-6-billion-rock-stars/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 10:47:33 \[...\] a related note, Chris Messina has written an in-depth report on the state of OpenID. If you are interested in the evolution of your identity on the web, and how that works across the \[...\] **[Google is Now an OpenID Provider « LocalLab : Foire aux Infos](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google%5Fis%5Fnow%5Fan%5Fopenid%5Fprovider.php?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 11:01:35 \[...\] a sign-in button that simply said “Sign In with a Yahoo! ID” (though Chris Messina argues that this could be detrimental to OpenID in the long run).Google and its partners are taking a \[...\] **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 11:08:07 "apparently @yahoo.com email addresses already work with existing OpenID implementations" Unfortunately, it's still \*only\* Yahoo from the email providers. Hopefully this will change in the future as more people recognize the pattern that Yahoo! inadvertently enabled :) **[SitePoint Blogs » The Single Sign-On War Will Ruin OpenID](http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/10/30/the-single-sign-on-war-will-ruin-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 13:37:03 \[...\] Chris Messina writes: “While I’m sympathetic to \[the\] argument that more OPs is frankly better for the web, \[...\] **[(veille)> Liens du 30-10-2008 + les identitĂŠs numĂŠriques](http://www.identites-numeriques.net/liens-30-10-2008?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 14:59:49 \[...\] OpenID usability is not an oxymoron | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Max Engel - the 8BitKid » A Big Week for OpenID](http://www.8bitkid.com/2008/10/29/a-big-week-for-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 15:03:55 \[...\] heels of Microsoft’s announcement of their intention to support the standard. In addition, Chris Messina wrote an excellent post yesterday on how we can overcome the usability problems that have marred OpenID \[...\] **[John](http://johnpanzer.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-29 17:26:31 "and no, Blogger doesn’t count" Hey, \_standing right here\_ dude... :) **[Ewan Marshall](http://ewanm89.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-30 02:45:45 @elliottcable: Use a better OP then. http://myopenid.com lets you set up profiles, and you choose which one you give to that website. As for more OPs, I'm not sure but I think the number of openid's I now have (and don't use) exceeds the number of email addresses I now have (and I don't use most of these either)... When flickr and googledocs, etc. allow openid rather than yet another provider open might actually become useful. **[Lightweight access PINs: a modest proposal for enabling OpenID in desktop and mobile apps | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/10/30/lightweight-access-pins-a-modest-proposal-for-enabling-openid-in-desktop-and-mobile-apps/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-30 15:28:25 \[...\] FactoryCity This can all be made better. Ready? Begin. Skip to content AboutArchivesTagsProjectsLinksScreenshotsContact ÂŤ OpenID usability is not an oxymoron \[...\] **[Lohnt sich bereits jetzt eine OpenID Implementierung?](http://pixelsebi.com/2008-10-31/lohnt-sich-bereits-jetzt-eine-openid-implementierung/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-31 02:44:42 \[...\] Moment gibt es aus aktuellen Anlass (UX Studie von Yahoo) eine Diskussion darĂźber, wie man die UX von OpenID verbessern kann. Die Ergebnisse dieser Diskussion - die \[...\] **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » Nov. 1st blogging ‘08](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/11/nov-1st-blogging-08?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-01 08:16:03 \[...\] Report from the OpenID summit \[...\] **[Interesting stuff from around the web 2008-11-02 « Derivadow.com](http://derivadow.com/2008/11/03/interesting-stuff-from-around-the-web-2008-11-02/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-02 15:13:23 \[...\] OpenID usability is not an oxymoron \[factoryjoe.com\] Chris Messina considers the four areas he believes OpenID usability needs to be improved: ease of use for developers and end users, branding and marketing, consistency and leadership. \[...\] **[Silicon Florist’s links arrangement for October 28 : Oregon Startup Blog](http://www.oregonstartupblog.com/2008/10/29/silicon-florist%e2%80%99s-links-arrangement-for-october-28/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-03 13:13:48 \[...\] OpenID usability is not an oxymoron | FactoryCity Chris Messina writes “Monday last week marked the first ever OpenID UX Summit at Yahoo! in Sunnyvale with over 40 in attendance. Representatives came from MySpace, Facebook, Google, Yahoo!, Vidoop, Janrain, Six Apart, AOL, Chimp, Magnolia, Microsoft, Plaxo, Netmesh, Internet 2 and Liberty Alliance to debate and discuss how best to make implementations of the protocol easier to use and more familiar.” \[...\] **[Dare Obasanjo aka Carnage4Life - Why Google Forked OpenID and Other Stories](http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2008/11/07/WhyGoogleForkedOpenIDAndOtherStories.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-07 07:43:37 \[...\] down for their users. Unsurprisingly a number of OpenID proponents have described these issues as usability issues as opposed to design \[...\] **[Independent study on OpenID awareness using Mechanical Turk | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/11/12/independent-study-on-openid-awareness-using-mechanical-turk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-12 21:41:47 \[...\] some of the criticism of OpenID is valid, especially if it can be turned into productive outcomes, like making OpenID easier to use, or less \[...\] **[Weekly Digest, First Edition - almost effortless](http://almosteffortless.com/2008/11/15/weekly-digest-first-edition/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-15 15:26:56 \[...\] OpenID usability is not an oxymoron Overwhelmingly criticism of OpenID has been leveraged by developers and web users alike against OpenID’s ease of use. \[...\] **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » the Open Stack, DiSO and all those closed stacks](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/11/the-open-stack-diso-and-all-those-closed-stacks?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-19 10:26:26 \[...\] can help glue together many of these standards - and put a user interface on the front of it. What Chris (FactoryJoe) has been talking about for a while - are user interface guidelines so that importing. inviting, \[...\] **[Responding to criticisms about OpenID: convenience, security and personal agency | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/26/responding-to-criticisms-about-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 00:01:14 \[...\] “OpenID should be dead… it’s way over-rated”. I’ve of course heard plenty of criticisms of OpenID, but hadn’t really heard that it was “overrated” (which implies that \[...\] **Dave** ¡ 2009-06-06 14:57:29 OpenID - interesting idea, but horrible implementation. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-06 15:30:20 Wow, thanks for that. That's a really original perspective. And glad you provided some ideas on alternatives or ways to improve it. :P **JJ** ¡ 2009-10-15 05:09:06 I like OpenID. I already used it (more than 2x). But... I found this post while trying to find out what to enter on http://bitbucket.org/account/signup/ as a OpenID. And you know what? This post didn't help at all. Nice thoughts, pros and cons, and interesting tech stuff (no, I'm not a n00b, I'm a pro), but what's the damn thing I have to enter for OpenID with e.g. GoogleMail? Here is the answer, and it's worth more than all blabla's before: http://weblogs.asp.net/meligy/archive/2009/07/28/small-tip-use-your-google-account-openid-url-but-what-s-the-url.aspx To paraphrase Dave: OpenID – great idea, but horrible UX. ### My argument against Proposition 8 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/my-argument-against-proposition-8/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:48.000Z Politics is something that I normally don't cover on my blog, but not for any particularly reason. I typically get more \[publicly\] worked up about technology and the economics and politics of technological development than I do about directly human-facing issues, but that's not because I've ever lost sight of the fact that ultimately all this technology is intended to serve people, or that there are more important, and more visceral, issues that could be tackled for greater, or longer lasting effect. It's just that I haven't really felt like I had an articulate contribution to make. Perhaps until now. If you're not interested in political discourse, that's of course your prerogative and you certainly can skip this post. Personally, however, I've become increasingly interested in what's going on in this country (*my* country), and increasingly enamored of political dialogue (however bereft of content as it sometimes is) as well as our representative democracy — an imperfect system to be sure, but one that at least, by and large, affords its constituents a voice in matters local, state and federal. And personal. Here in California, we have a cagey system of democracy where voters are provided the opportunity to consider multiple arguments for and against several propositions presented on a ballot to determine numerous policies at both the state and local level. I voted absentee yesterday (as I'll be traveling to Oceania later this week) and along with the ballot for the presidential election, there were two accompanying ballots, one for the state and one for the city of San Francisco, where I am a resident. On the state ballot is [Proposition 8](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California%5FProposition%5F8%5F%282008%29?ref=chrismessina.me), effectively an amendment to the California state constitution that would ban gay marriage by defining it strictly as a union of a heterosexual couple: one man, one woman. I voted against this proposition. And I'll tell you why.[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2949290597/sizes/o/?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Back in the day... When I was a senior in high school (in conservative "Live Free or Die" New Hampshire), I supported an initiative to create a gay-straight student alliance, or GSA. At the time, I was on the staff of the newspaper and was more informed of the various controversies affecting my classmates, but I'll admit, I was also pretty ignorant of other "lifestyles". Still, if my parents taught me anything, tolerance and self-respect were a few of the more subtle lessons that must have stuck, which led me to [support the effort](http://www.glad.org/rights/newhampshire/c/students-rights-in-new-hampshire/?ref=chrismessina.me). As I had done for many of the school's student clubs, I created a homepage with information on the GSA initiative and hosted it on my own website. I had also single-handed built my high school's website (even though I couldn't get any educator besides the dorky librarian to care) and inserted a banner ad into the site's rotating pool of four or five ads promoting the other school club sites that I'd designed. The ad for the GSA, which didn't say much more than "Find out more" with a link off-site, was in rotation for several weeks when I was called down to the principal's office to explain why I was announcing school policy without authorization. So it goes in the petri-dish of adolescent high school politics and unbalanced power relationships. Rather than use this as an educational opportunity, the principal, who later became mayor of the city, decided instead to use this situation as a *reeducational* opportunity and externally suspended me for six days, meaning I wouldn't be able to graduate. I'll cut to the chase in a moment, but in response, I took down the GSA ad — as well as the entire high school's site (I was hosting that on my own server too — back in 1999 schools didn't know what a "web server" was). I vowed that I wouldn't turn over the site files until they'd written up rules governing what students were and weren't allowed to post to the school's site; meanwhile my mom threatened to sue the school. My infraction was small beans (and eventually overturned) compared with the lawsuit that [GLAD](http://www.glad.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and the ACLU filed against the school district barring discrimination against school clubs. By the time the lawsuit was decided in favor of the students, I had graduated and moved off to Pittsburgh, but the experience, and impression that it left on me, has resonated since. ### ...history repeating None of these contested issues really consume you until you're personally affected, as I was in high school, and today I feel equally affected by this proposition, but more capable of doing something about it. The arguments for and against are fairly straight forward, but for me it comes down to two things: - First, I don't believe that laws should codify discrimination. Our history as a nation has been blighted by both gender and racial discrimination, and now we're facing discrimination against the *makeup* of certain families — specifically those of same-sex couples. Good law should strive to be non-ideological; discrimination is nearly always ideologically driven. - Second, if *marriage* as an institution stems from a religious foundation, but is represented in law, by the principle of the separation of church and state and presuming the importance of tolerance to culture, we should cleft out the religious underpinnings of marriage from law and return it to the domain of the church, especially if the church mandates that the definition of marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. The state should therefore only be in the business of recognizing in law civil unions, or the lawful coming together of *two people* in union. Marriage itself would be a separate religious institution, having no basis in civil law. In other words, *should* marriage persist in law, then it should not be discriminatory against same-sex couples. If *marriage* must only be for heterosexual couples, then it should be removed from the state constitution and replaced with civil unions, which would be available to any two willing citizens. The examples that have informed my thinking on this come from real people — friends whom I've now known for some time, and who I could not imagine being legally separated from their partners because of religious zealotry and illogical reasoning. [](http://staticfade.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)The first is [Hillary Hartley](http://staticfade.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), a good friend and fellow coworker at [Citizen Space](http://citizenspace.us/?ref=chrismessina.me), who has been with her partner for eight years, having known her for 15\. They were recently (finally!) able to get married in California, but [the vote on November 4 threatens to annul their marriage](http://staticfade.blogspot.com/2008/10/asking-for-your-vote-and-little-bit-of.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Think about that: the potential of this decision could dissolve the legal recognition of a perfectly happy, stable and loving relationship. I can't even imagine what that must feel like, and because I am a heterosexual male, I never will. And that's completely unjust. [](http://ext337.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Marnie Webb](http://ext337.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) is a also good friend of mine, who has been active in the non-profit technology space for years, and who I met through [Compumentor](http://www.compumentor.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [NetSquared](http://www.netsquared.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [TechSoup](http://www.techsoup.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) (she's co-CEO of TechSoup). Marnie faces the same fate as Hillary, but in her case, it would mean that Marnie's daughter, Lucy, would grow up with parents who were legally not allowed to recognize their union, nor have rights for hospital visitation among other [benefits of marriage](http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/ObjectID/E0366844-7992-4018-B581C6AE9BF8B045/catID/F896EE61-B80C-4FE1-B1687AC0F07903BA/118/304/ART/?ref=chrismessina.me). ### The low-pressure ask So here's what I'm asking for. I'll give you three options. First, **THINK about this**. Talk to people about it. I'm certainly not going to make up your mind for you, but if you were (or are) in a heterosexual marriage and it was threatened to be annulled by changes in law, how would you feel about it? What would you do? The problem with discrimination is that someone's always losing out; next time it could be you. Second, **VOTE**. When you see Proposition 8 on the ballot, vote your conscience, not your ideology. Belief systems are powerful and complex, but they're not always right. And times do change. It's counter-intuitive to me that we've spent seven years and untold billions fighting for "Iraqi Freedom" when in our country we're threatening to take civil liberties away from natural-born citizens. Third, **GIVE *something***. Obviously the presidential campaigns have probably tapped you out, especially given the uncertainly in the market, but you can give more than just money: you can give your time, or you can give mindshare and voice to these issues by widening the conversation, retweeting this post, blogging about it, or taking a video to record your own sentiments. If you do want to donate money, both [Hillary](http://tr.im/div?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Marnie](http://eqfed.org/equalityforall/fundraising/webb-695295?ref=chrismessina.me) have set up respective donation pages. The [challenge](http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=3398&ref=chrismessina.me) we're facing is that proponents of Prop 8 are better-funded and are able to put more ads on TV and make more phone calls. Money in this case can be directly turned into awareness, and into [action](http://www.noonprop8.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). If you've [got $5](http://tr.im/div?ref=chrismessina.me), it can make a difference, [especially now](http://www.noonprop8.com/challenge?ref=chrismessina.me), as your contribution will be matched dollar for dollar. It's up to you. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Cathryn Hrudicka](http://www.creativesage.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-18 14:24:44 Thank you for this thoughtful blog post, Chris. I just got married this week after 16 yrs. together (I'm straight), and my husband and I were very touched by the gay and lesbian couples marrying the same day (we had a civil ceremony). We congratulated them, and it was obvious there was no difference between their marriages and ours, in terms of their love and devotion for each other. I have other gay and lesbian friends, and I hope and pray their marriages are not voided. Gay marriage is in no way a threat to "the institution of marriage"—as a married straight person, I see and feel no threat at all. Vote No on 8, please! **[Lode](http://lodev.name/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-19 15:16:47 Chris, thanks for this great-written post. While I was on holiday in San Francisco last month, I did - as you write here - what I could. As a foreign citizen I am, as far as I know, not able to legally donate money to PACs or candidates. As you write, there's lot's of other ways to support though. I went [phonebanking](http://flickr.com/photos/jumpingshark/sets/72157607591916265/detail/?ref=chrismessina.me) in the DNC/Obama office (on Market street, between 5th and 6th), and had a great time. So, if you're reading this and have some free time between now and Nov 4th, why not donate some time to the campaign? Believe me, it's well worth it. **[Digidave](http://www.digidave.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-19 15:58:28 Damn straight Chris. I'm in a similar place as you: traditionally not a political buff, but increasingly becoming so. No on 8. **[Dayna](http://youtube.com/homotracker?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-19 21:25:44 Thanks so much for your blog. It's amazing to me how the Yes campaign has magically spun it so you can vote to add discrimination into the Constitution, but still "have gay friends" and "be completely tolerant.". Their ads are a joke which is, unfortunately, working. A true friend knows that seperate is not equal. I've been phonebanking all weekend and have committed every night after work until Prop 8 fails. Latest polling is saying it could come down to 100 votes, so please please tell all your friends, family, and neighbors how Prop 8 must fail. **Stephen Paul Weber** ¡ 2008-10-20 05:55:58 "If marriage must only be for heterosexual couples, then it should be removed from the state constitution and replaced with civil unions, which would be available to any two willing citizens." And what would be the purpose of these 'civil unions'? I definitely agree that marriage has nothing to do with governments or politics and no government ever really has or will define or sanction any kind of marriage (as much as they may think they do). When polygamist friends of mine move to the west, they don't cease to by polygamist... they just don't "register" their marriages with the government. What purpose does having the government recognize any unions serve? And why should any such thing be confined to "two people". **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-20 06:37:58 @SPW: The purpose of civil unions, as recognized by law, would be to convey various [rights and benefits](http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/ObjectID/E0366844-7992-4018-B581C6AE9BF8B045/catID/F896EE61-B80C-4FE1-B1687AC0F07903BA/118/304/ART/?ref=chrismessina.me) typically reserved for kin. In essence, a civil union is a legal way of annexing one's family to another's. At its foundation, I think there is a structural foundation in a union of two, and that such unions can help create stability in civilization. It's certainly a logical question to ask "Well, if a union of two is permissible, why not three, four, or more? Why not with animals? Where do you draw the line?!" And the answer is that you draw the line at two, for several reasons, least among them might be clarity and efficiency. Given that civil unions confer rights like hospital visitation and legal representation, it would become a whole lot more complicated if you had multiple parties showing up to advocate on your behalf, making disparate demands. It also seems that if you allow for civil unions between several individuals, the potential for abusing the system becomes greater. I'm open to a conversation about this, but as it is, I feel pretty strongly that, though polygamy certainly exists, I'm not yet convinced of its ability to act as a stabilizing force within civilization. **Stephen Paul Weber** ¡ 2008-10-20 08:32:31 @Chris. Thanks for the clarity about civil unions. I'm not 100% sure that's the right way to solve that problem, but I understand where you're coming from there for sure. On polygamy, basically you're saying it makes the legal structures that civil unions are designed to create too complicated to be practical? Would you suggest polygamists only register one of their unions, or none at all, or what? The "why not with animals" did come to mind : but your definition of why civil unions are useful makes it clear why that is not relevant. **Alex** ¡ 2008-10-20 09:09:45 Chris, It's on the ballot here in FL right now also. I've been a little surprised by the amount of yard signs I've seen in support of it. The odd thing is, it's already illegal here. I think you nailed it on the civil union front. Maybe it's the IA in me. A marriage is a civil union, but I'm okay with a civil union not being a marriage, provided 'marriage' is, as proponents suggest, a 'religious institution.' If that is truly the case, then let's separate it out. That's just an issue of semantics / terminology. The real issue seems to me to be that of benefits, hospital visitations and other things commonly afforded to hetero partnerships. It's the partnering that I think we should be encouraging (for reasons that you mentioned). I often think of all the unwanted children stuck in foster care and wonder how on earth someone couldn't want them to have a home with parents that are willing to teach/care/look out for them. Anyhow.. It's just a shame that with all the issues we need to address, this one constantly seems to make it to the forefront. **[Thoughts on Proposition 8](http://willnorris.com/2008/10/thoughts-on-proposition-8?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-21 00:21:16 \[...\] currently afforded married couples are instead granted to these civil unions. Chris Messina and I completely agree on this \[...\] **[Jenny, Bloggess](http://www.thebloggess.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-21 16:39:27 Profound and brilliant. **Geoff** ¡ 2008-10-23 15:34:24 Well written, logical, and persuasive. Too bad that just won't matter to [some people](http://tim.theenchanter.com/2008/10/change-safaris-default-search-engine-to.html?ref=chrismessina.me). (By the way, tried to use OpenID and just got a blank page on returning from ClaimID.) **[John’s Blog » Why I Voted Against Proposition 8](http://john.jubjubs.net/2008/10/24/why-i-voted-against-proposition-8/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-24 00:38:26 \[...\] should also read Chris Messina's post on the subject -- he writes more eloquently than I do about this subject, and is well worth \[...\] **S. Marsh** ¡ 2008-10-24 12:17:11 Chris, I’ve read through your posts and the subsequent comments and I feel I need to present a contrary position. On your comment, “I don’t believe that laws should codify discrimination”, there is some clarification necessary here. Laws indeed do need to “discriminate” between activity that is acceptable and activity that is criminal. That is not to say that I am calling the sexual preferences in question “criminal”. However, according to your statement, “If marriage must only be for heterosexual couples, then it should be removed from the state constitution and replaced with civil unions, which would be available to any two willing citizens”, what about a situation where one citizen is an adult and one person is a child (let’s say younger than 10 years old)? Shouldn’t laws prevent such a “union” (even if the child is “willing”)? The fact of the matter is that morality is intrinsic to laws, whether it is called “religion” or not. Our laws are based on standards of treating people and recognizing people certain ways that tie back to a basic understanding of right and wrong. Here is another important point. Something is not “discriminatory” for two different people unless the circumstances for the two situations are the same but one of the persons is being treated differently. As an example: Man A has always had the right to marry the woman of his choice (within certain limitations of the laws). Man B has always had the exact same right to marry the woman of his choice. It is not discriminatory to say that Man B does not have the right to marry a man of his choice when Man A does not have that right, either. I heard a “No on 8” commercial driving to work this morning that said, “Proposition 8 has nothing to do with education and nothing to do with children”. I believe that statement is very incorrect. Proposition 8 has everything to do with education and with children. The idea behind marriage is to facilitate a structure that provides an ideal support system for families and for children. Children require a mother and a father – both literally (to exist in the first place) and emotionally (to flourish). Unfortunately, this fact is being de-emphasized more and more as time goes on, and redefining marriage is only making things worse. Regarding the issue of “education” - the position from the “No on 8” side is that the homosexual lifestyle should be accepted and promoted as an equal alternative to a heterosexual lifestyle. The desire is clearly to educate the public (including children). Regarding the person who questions why there is an attempt in Florida to pass a similar law, here is the reason: it is to pre-empt future problems and struggles that have been seen in CA, MA, and CT. These are three states where, like FL is now, such marriages were not allowed until some mark of the pen changed things without regard to the will of the people. “Yes on 8” immediately lost significant ground when the CA Attorney General changed the wording of the measure from, “California Marriage Protection Act” to “Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry”. The first title was a positively-stated objective intended to protect the institution of marriage to what is has been for millennia, but the second title is phrased to appear that someone wants to eliminate some pre-existing rights of people. By states like FL taking pre-emptive measures, they can avoid unfortunate manipulation such as what happened in CA. Regarding your comments about some people that you know who have had long-term partners, I can sympathize with some of what you are saying. However, having certain sexual preferences, living with someone, or preferring to be near people of the same gender does not necessarily equate to initiating a familial relationship. I have both men and woman that I love dearly. That does not mean I want or need to have sex with them. I can envision being “housemates” with either men or women, but as I mentioned, children need parents for their ideal support system. “Marriage” is not about “sexual preference” – it is about families. Unfortunately, politics and policies indeed do drive acceptance and permissiveness. Such has been the case with many other hot social-political topics of the last 100 years. We can’t afford to continue de-emphasize the importance of the family in society. I’m voting Yes on 8. **Jimmy Cabrera Jr.** ¡ 2008-10-25 00:37:24 Chris, first I do want to commend you and thank you so very much. You’ll never have any idea how much this means to all of us- to have allies like you who understand and support. We make up 10% (they say) and without people like you we would forever be oppressed or pushed to the side and DISCRIMINATED against. Again, we appreciate you and all who make themselves aware. The rest of this post will be directed toward S. Marsh and everyone else who shares his point of view. When you said “laws indeed do need to ‘discriminate’ between activity that is acceptable and activity that is criminal” you were referring to a different definition of discriminate than Chris. You meant “discern difference” and Chris meant “treat group unfairly because of prejudice.” Should laws codify unfair treatment of a group because of prejudice as Chris proposed? Of course not Marsh. The way you subtly equate being gay to criminal is pretty sneaky- but mostly laughable. You mock Chris’s suggestion that civil unions be available to any two willing citizens by extending that right to an adult and a child. What?! Pedophiles come in all shapes, sizes, and even orientation. However, it’s quite erroneous and extremely offensive to directly imply that all gay people are pedophiles. I’m not even going to break down your Man A/Man B paragraph that “explains” why prop. 8 is not discriminatory. It makes no sense. Regarding your education and children paragraph you say, “Children require a mother and a father…(to exist in the first place)…” Spare us. We all know where babies come from. Your statement is simply not true. All a child requires is love. They need to be fed, changed, comforted, and supported. Single mothers, single fathers, a household with two fathers, or a household with two mothers are all capable. Another point to ponder (though you probably won’t) is that same-sex couples will never procreate by accident. Their child will be a child that was wanted and planned for way in advance. They will have gone through a long and often discouraging process of adoption or surrogacy. Of course, I’m not saying that boys and girls ever get pregnant by accident… Oh, oddly I do completely agree with your last statement in that paragraph in which you say, “the position from the ‘No on 8’ side is that the homosexual lifestyle should be accepted and promoted as an equal alternative to a heterosexual lifestyle. The desire is clearly to educate the public (including children)” Yeah. It should. They should be taught that sometimes boys like other boys and sometimes girls like girls and that’s okay. Marsh you may have a gay child and it’s not your fault. Don’t worry. It’s only people like you they’ll have to fear. You say that the title “Marriage Protection Act” is a positively-stated objective to protect what we’ve known for millennia. I’ll address the necessity of CHANGE or progress in my conclusion. You say the title “Elimination of Marriage for Same-Sex Couples” sounds like someone is trying to take away our pre-existing rights. You are!! Right now we ARE able to get married in California. You are taking away our right. You say, “I have both men and women that I love dearly. That does not mean I want or need to have sex with them.” You’re unaware but being gay doesn’t mean sex fiend. The fact that your mind goes there feeds my homophobia and latent desires theory but I digress… So let me break it down to you. People can’t change their orientation. Just as a person can’t change the color of skin they were born with or if they are right handed or left handed. It is not a choice. You don’t believe me. You can’t. Assume we can’t do anything about it. Should we be denied anything because of difference to the majority? Revolutions occur throughout civilizations as they should. Women shouldn’t vote, right? Black people should have separate facilities, right? We don’t need to go to school with those people, right? You must believe in progress, right? Whether it’s on November 4th, 2008 or a future election I believe the revolution will happen. It may not be in your lifetime but your children will see that day. I hope progress never ends and so should you. Just know that you’re wrong. Accept it. I’m voting No on 8. **R, Moose** ¡ 2008-10-25 15:15:07 Chris... thanks. The following was written before I read Jimmy's response... I think he probably says it better.. but here is mine anyways =) S. Marsh "The first title was a positively-stated objective intended to protect the institution of marriage to what is has been for millennia, but the second title is phrased to appear that someone wants to eliminate some pre-existing rights of people." Uh.. no. At this time, Marriage is a right of basically any two people. Prop 8 DOES eliminate that right. What I think needs to be said is that if prop 8 passes a Male/Female couple has rights that should be available to a Same Sex couple but they are not. Yes On 8 would deny rights that should be available to all couples. It isn't about the "Marriage" it is about the rights and the Government decided at one point to use it to determine what rights various people had. If Yes on 8 passes, a M/F couple have different tax and legal benefits. Everyone I talk to on the "Yes on 8" side are basically pushing the FUD factor. (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.) I understand that you are scared of change (heck, I am scared about Sarah Palin, myself.) But that doesn't mean I am going to make an amendment so only Males can be President. In discussing this with the oldest of my 3 kids (yes 3 kids) she cannot understand why someone would want to discriminate. She believes that "Marriage" is between two people, not between two people and the Government.. but she also knows that M/F couples are given different rights than a "civil union" or same sex couples at this point. Because of this, she believes that Marriage should be available to M/M, M/F and F/F, as we are all humans that should be treated equally and with respect. One of her heroes is Martin Luther King. She feels like I do, that the constitution is to give rights, not take them away. (btw, she is 12 and has a firm grasp of God and religion.) "A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do noting at all to protect traditional marriage" - Coretta Scott King **[Why I Support No on Proposition 8 in California—How Much Love and Respect is in Your Heart? |](http://creativesagearts.com/blog/?p=25&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-25 16:38:30 \[...\] as follows: I appreciate your post, Louis, and the thoughtful replies here. As I have commented on FriendFeed and Chris Messina’s, aka FactoryJoe’s, recent blog post, it’s \[...\] **S. Marsh** ¡ 2008-10-25 20:42:15 Jimmy, I most certainly did not intend to equate being gay to being criminal. That is why I specifically followed my comment with a clarification. Neither did I imply anywhere that “all gay people are pedophiles”; nor did I even as much as imply that “any gay people are pedophiles”. Please re-read my post and see. I agree with you that it would be, “quite erroneous and extremely offensive to directly imply that all gay people are pedophiles”. My point was merely that allowing civil unions to be between any “willing citizens” as Chris suggested is not a good idea because of implications regarding children. If he would have said, “willing adults” instead of “willing citizens”, then I think I could buy into that (for civil unions, providing the same benefits as marriage). I’m just saying that open-ended laws tend to be taken advantage of, and restrictions are necessary. Regarding my Man A/B paragraph, it wasn’t related to Prop. 8\. It was more describing the situation prior to the 4/3 State Supreme Court ruling. Prior to that ruling, a homosexual person and a heterosexual person both could marry someone of the opposite sex, and both could not marry someone of the same sex. You may be surprised, but I also agree with what you said about children and what they need. Beyond the obvious (of how babies happen), I was merely saying what countless studies have shown – that the best (ideal) opportunity for children to flourish is when they have a stable home life with a mother and father. There are plenty of people out there, whether single, heterosexual, or homosexual, that are great parents, and there are plenty of examples of children flourishing in alternate situations. I am glad that is the case. There is nothing wrong with the situation where “boys like boys” and “girls like girls” like you mention. That happens naturally, and is even predominately the situation for a large number of formative childhood years. That is not the problem. The problem is when someone tries to “educate” these children to think that it is “okay” for boys to prefer sexual relations with other boys, at a time when they are not mature enough to even understand the implications of adults having sexual relations. For your information, I do not have a gay child. I’m not sure what that guess/point was intended to imply. There are plenty of people (whether they have a gay child or not) that would like the definition of Marriage to be what it has been for millennia. My original point about the Proposition 8 title changes is that in FL (or another pre-emptive state), such a title switcharoo couldn’t happen like it did in CA. So, the point was that there are valid reasons for such an attempt to be made in FL. Regarding your statement, “You’re unaware but being gay doesn’t mean sex fiend” - that’s about the third or fourth time that you have over-generalized and attributed something to me that I didn’t say (or believe). I am well aware that being “gay” does not equate to “being a sex fiend”. However, since I am capable (and I assume you are, too) of loving both men and women, then the distinction indeed relates to who we “want to have sex with”, doesn’t it. That was my point. If we take that point back to the issue of children, then how can we actually know whether a child who has never had sexual relations is homosexual or not? It is not just a matter of a male being effeminate or a female being masculine. There is more to it than that, obviously (and don’t misunderstand my previous statement as implying that “all gay males are effeminate” or “all gay females are masculine”, because I am well aware that this is not the case). The “more to it” simply relates, again, to who we prefer to have as a sexual partner. I agree with everything that you said in your last paragraph starting with “Revolutions occur” (except for the binary statement about being wrong), so in that spirit of agreement I’ll sign off. Hopefully you understand me better now, too. Thanks for your comments. **S. Marsh** ¡ 2008-10-25 21:04:52 Correta, if you want to talk about FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt), then I think your post is more about that approach than is valid, because under California law, “domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits …” as married spouses. (Family Code § 297.5.) Proposition 8 does not attempt to change this. Here is the actual verbose Family Code section, if you are interested: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fam&group=00001-01000&file=297-297.5 Thanks for expressing your concerns. Hopefully, this Family Code can help to alleviate your concerns. I’m glad you mentioned these because I think it is a common misconception that the benefits that you mention as being in jeopardy are not actually in jeopardy. I, for one, want to see that those rights are protected for everyone. **[Prop 8 « Homersexual: Simulation of Life](http://homersexual.wordpress.com/2008/10/26/prop-8/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-26 02:51:38 \[...\] straight blogger whose link I got off of Rick’s homo-superior blog, puts it as succinctly as I could have. He \[...\] **Gerv** ¡ 2008-10-26 05:53:36 "Good law should strive to be non-ideological; discrimination is nearly always ideologically driven." All law is ideological, because it represents conforming what is permitted to what the person or people proposing the law think should be permitted, and what they think should be permitted is governed by their opinions, beliefs and ideology. For example, "Men and women are equal in every possible sense of the word" is an ideology, and a fairly undiscerning one at that. Anyone who proposes law and yet tells you different just hasn't recognised their own ideology; for them, ideology is something that other people have. It's one of those irregular verbs: I have a well-considered worldview which informs my decisions, you/he is driven by an ideology. On a similar point (and one made by other commenters), all law is discriminatory. The law against murder discriminates against those who would really like to get rid of their annoying neighbour. Saying "the law is discriminatory" is not an argument in and of itself. You have to say why such discrimination is wrong - and that goes back to your worldview and the basis on which you make decisions. So how do we make decisions? Without a belief in a moral lawgiver, all law is either entirely arbitrary or pragmatic ("whatever works"). \[Sidenote: One upshot of this is that you have no grounds for saying that others \_should\_ agree with you - if you assert that everyone gets to make their own decision, you lose the right to make moral imperatives. What works for you may not work for them, and they have just as much right to decide as you do.\] This pragmatism comes out when you (Chris) try and answer the question "so why not polygamy? or marriage with children?". Your only ground to discriminate between the situations is pragmatics, and so you deny those unions on the grounds of "clarity and efficiency" and because it would get "complicated". Yet you would be up in arms if people tried to deny homosexual marriages on those same grounds. So why do you draw the line where you draw it? Jimmy Cabrera gets very upset at the very suggestion that legalising homosexual marriage leads to legalizing adult-child marriage - but indignation is not an argument. On what basis do you draw a line between the two? Consent? What if the child consents? Do you withdraw from them the right to give such consent? Why? That's probably enough to be going on with - I won't get into (relating to your second point) how the original provisions in the constitution about how there should be no official state ("established") religion, as there was in England, have been distorted out of all proportion to squeeze out a principle of "the state and its officers should have nothing to do with anything vaguely connected to God". Perhaps for another time :-) **[How I voted in 2008 at Amateur Earthling](http://zaneselvans.org/blog/2008/10/26/how-i-voted-in-2008/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-26 18:25:13 \[...\] court’s decision is the next best thing, and it should be allowed to stand. Chris Messina makes the same argument better in this blog \[...\] **valrus** ¡ 2008-10-28 14:58:00 The constant equivocation on the meaning of "discriminate" by the people arguing in support of 8 is driving me crazy. **valrus** ¡ 2008-10-28 15:00:34 By the way: "What if the child consents? Do you withdraw from them the right to give such consent? Why?" Yes, obviously we withdraw that right, for essentially the same reason that statutory rape is a crime. **Gerv** ¡ 2008-10-28 16:26:52 valrus: are you saying the child has no right to consent? (If that's not what you are saying, you need to explain further.) Upon what grounds do you discriminate against such a child by withdrawing from them that right? The grounds that you claim to know better what is right than the child? You can't have it both ways. You can't argue "all discrimination is wrong, except for the discrimination I think is appropriate". **[Cain Hamm](http://www.baytzim.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-28 17:35:46 I would be VERY careful about changing our state's Constitution! Remember who's behind proposition 8\. The wording of this ammendment is unusual, as [this ministry points out.](http://ravagedfaces/?ref=chrismessina.me). How many hours have been spent in courtrooms arguing over commas in the 2nd ammendment? Let's leave our state constitution alone! **S. Marsh** ¡ 2008-10-28 21:13:17 Cain Hamm, your post and the ridiculous www.ravagedfaces.com website you tried to link is preposterous. Some “ministry” they are. The phrase “a man” and “a woman” clearly imply “one man” and “one woman”. Additionally, similar propositions with similar backing and support are even worded more incontrovertibly (although less simply). To illustrate the point: Arizona’s Proposition 102 states, “Only a union of one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in this state.”; and Florida’s Amendment 2 states, “Inasmuch as marriage is the legal union of only one man and one woman as husband and wife, no other legal union that is treated as marriage or the substantial equivalent thereof shall be valid or recognized.” So much for your silly propoganda. I don’t think that will fool many people as almost anyone can refute that argument with about 2 minutes of research like I did. It looks like you are picking up on the FUD factor (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt). **R. Moose** ¡ 2008-10-30 17:22:02 S. Marsh, I would suggest looking into the full set of laws regarding Domestic Partnerships/Unions and Marriage in the state of California. There are limitations and other issues with domestic partnerships that are not hovering over being Married. There are requirements for domestic partners that are not the same as for Marriage. Unless the State gets out of the marriage business, Prop. 8 does discriminate. Proposition 8 will NOT protect traditional marriage. and yes, I would like the state to get out of marriage but that would require changing a ton of laws =/ **Loco Christian Otaku** ¡ 2008-10-30 19:29:04 I'm currently doing an essay for prop. 8 for my hist class and so far all I'm seeing is just opionated stuff, nothing concrete to base my persuasive essay on. Anyway, I'm too retarded to write such long paragraphs as you guys so I'll just get to the point: do the right thing with Yes on Prop. 8 Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know I'm writing gayly but this world has been too pessimistic lately so I encourage everyone to keep up your efforts to live. God bless you all. Oh well, I still have to think of some reasons for my thesis to support Prop 8, and I probably will never visit this page again so I would rather try a happy kamikaze approach to lift people's spirits up than compared to a pessimistic comment. XDDDDDDDDDD **Catherine** ¡ 2008-10-31 13:26:46 I do not hate anyone from the gay community and I am voting “yes” on prop 8\. It’s obvious to me from various articles and statements I have read that there are those who don’t think it is possible to put these two assertions in the same sentence. But I am writing this to let people know that there are many, many people who are voting “yes” on 8 and are not doing so out of hate. I am not motivated by hate. The reason I go out and encourage people to vote “yes” and have a “yes” sign in my yard is motivated by my love for God and His laws and commandments. As a Christian, I believe with all my soul that God Himself started this institution called marriage at the beginning of time and established it as a union between a man and a woman; that’s it! No addendums, no “but maybe later”s, a union between a man and a woman. I am working to keep God’s institution the way He established it; nothing more and nothing less. www.whatisprop8.com **R. Moose** ¡ 2008-11-02 15:39:26 Catherine, So you want to get the government more involved in your own religious beliefs? Prop. 8 is unfair and modifies the constitution to discriminate against a group of people. I personally believe that the government should NOT be involved in marriage and it is up to your own beliefs, however, since they are in the marriage business, it should be available to all. Vote NO on 8, and then work on getting the government OUT of Marriage not by discriminating against those who wish to be together. **Paul** ¡ 2008-11-02 20:58:38 "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." I like the 1st Amendment. Every part of it seems to be related to discussion of Proposition 8\. The 1st amendment guarantees my right to an opinion. The strongest differences of opinion over issues are usually questions of deciding "greater good". I am not lesbian nor gay, but if my opinion affects my neighbor, I should think about it seriously. After much thought, my view is most similar to the one articulated here: http://www.marriageinstitute.ca/images/somerville.pdf It contains non-religious(not that there's anything wrong with that) arguments written by Margaret Somerville, an ethicist. I will vote Yes on Proposition 8 and if you will read and think about Ms. Somerville's ideas, maybe you will too. **Vaughn** ¡ 2008-11-03 06:38:14 If discrimination is the reason you site to vote against prop 8 then there is no logical termination to your argument. Everyone and anyone should be able to get married if you want to avoid discrimination. I know others argue that pluaral mariage would be hard to administer, but that is just admitting that you are okay with discrimination against those with a predisposition to love more than one person if it is too burdensome to administer their legal rights. And what about marriage between siblings? If you are for marriage between same sex couples then how can you be against marriage between brother and sister? Are you saying it is okay to discriminate if the engaged couple has a higher likelyhood to produce offspring with some type of birth defect? The problem I have with those against prop 8 is that they attempt to make it out to be a vote of higher tollerance. It really is not. If it were a vote of tollerance, you would be finding an argument for plural marriage or incestual marriage rather than defending why you are against it. A vote against prop 8 is just redefining who marriage will discriminate against. It is certainly not a vote against discrimination. I respect your sense of morality. You are entitled to it. But don't pretend that your morality stems from a greater capacity for tollerance. It simply stems from your view on the nature of marriage. **AL** ¡ 2008-11-03 08:09:26 There is an excellent 7-page paper entitled, "Homosexual Marriage: A Social Science View” located here: http://www.narth.com/docs/CPASSAmarriage.pdf Some may say that this paper or the organization that posted it is biased or otherwise unfair. I would say that this organization does seem to think differently about the potential for some homosexuals than other organizations, and some of the conclusions stated in the document may differ from conclusions that other organizations could present, but many of the studies referenced in the document (that were not done by this organization) were subject to peer review and were scientifically processed. The data from these studies is revealing and disturbing, and in many cases it is not difficult to logically glean some of the same conclusions that the author proposes. It is worth reading the whole report, but below are just a few examples of some of the disturbing statistics included in the report. = = = Beginning of quotes = = = Page 1, last paragraph - “A grave concern for the children is the instability of same sex relationships across cultures. In one large study in America and Canada (Jay and Young, 1997), 38 percent of male homosexuals said the longest relationship they had ever had was less than one year. The average length of longest relationship and the most frequent response for the men was 2 years. The longest relationship for lesbians was on average thirty-eight months (Jay and Young, 1979, pp. 340, 302). “ Page 2, paragraph 6 - “A San Francisco study (Bell and Weinberg, 1978) found that thirty-eight percent of white lesbians had had sex with strangers, and 63 percent had had partners with whom they had sex only once. The same study reported that among white male homosexuals studied, 75 percent had had 100 or more sexual partners, 60 percent had had 250 or more sexual partners, 43 percent had had 500 or more sexual partners, and 28 percent, the largest subcategory, reported over 1,000 sexual partners (p. 308). Ninety-nine percent of white male homosexuals reported they had had sex with strangers, 79 percent reported over half their partners were strangers, and 70 percent said over half their partners were men with whom they had sex only once (pp. 308-309).” Page 3, paragraphs 2-5: “If homosexual relationships are fulfilling, why are there so many changes in partners? People who are at peace with themselves do not seek random sex with strangers…. A study of American and Canadian homosexuals (Jay and Young, 1979) found that 38 percent of lesbians had participated in “threesomes” at least once and 16 percent of lesbians had taken part in orgies or had group sex (p. 534). Among the male homosexuals, 77 percent had participated in “threesomes” at least once (p. 587), 59 percent had taken part in orgies or had group sex (p. 587), 38 percent had taken part in sadomasochism at least once (p. 555), 23 percent had practiced urination in association with sex (p. 555), 24 percent had paid for sex (p. 260), and 13 percent admitted to having practiced bestiality (p. 555). The San Francisco male homosexual study reported 27 percent had paid for sex, and 25 percent had been paid for sex (p. 311). There have long been rumors of pedophilia (adults having sex with pre-pubescent children) and hebephilia (adults having sex with post-pubescent children) by homosexuals. The San Francisco study reported 25 percent of the white male homosexuals in their sample admitted they had had sex with partners who were 16 or younger when the respondent was 21 or older (p. 311). This is criminal behavior in California. In a study of American and Canadian homosexuals, 23 percent of respondents admitted to having had sex with youths between the ages of 13 and 15, again a practice that in California is criminal, and 19 percent felt positive about sexual activity with this age group (p. 275-276). Interestingly, 50 percent of the male respondents had their first sex when aged 15 or younger (p. 107), and 20 percent of the females did also (p. 52). Many of the males experienced negative feelings about their first sexual encounter that became more positive later (p. 107). Not all homosexuals engage in these practices. Some homosexuals condemn these practices, but many, including some gay activist leaders, openly praise them. It should be of huge concern that the stated goal of gay activists is to have the gay lifestyle brought fully into the mainstream of society and everyday living, and homosexual marriage does that.” Page 4, paragraph 1 - “Gay researchers (McWhierter and Mattison, 1984) studied 156 homosexual male couples that had been together between one and thirty-seven years. They found that one hundred per cent of the couples had infidelity within the first five years.” = = = End of Quotes = = = When “Ninety-nine percent of white male homosexuals reported they had had sex with strangers” and when 156 out of 156 homosexual male couples that had been together between one and thirty-seven years had infidelity within the first five years, it sure seems to me that this is not the place for “marriage”, would be detrimental to the term “marriage”, and is not an ideal environment in which to place children. After studying this issue and weighing any positives or negatives, I will be voting “Yes on 8” tomorrow. I hope you will likewise give this issue proper consideration. Thank you. **Juan Jaasiel Rodrigu** ¡ 2008-11-03 18:22:23 there is very deep issue here at hand in terms of marriage. This problem will in no way be solved in this election. The door for conflict has been blown wide open, and the issue will go on to weig more important things in our country. We must truly look at the responsibilities of the state, and its need to promote the well being of it's systems ability to provide freedoms and liberties for its constituents and to avoid creating inconsistencies for them that leads to moral dilemnas. If we are to be true liberterians, and propose a state of anarchy, we must therefore not ask the state to consider our contracts, agreements, rhetoric etc. in its decision making process. For example, absolutely free trade and economy. However, because we request help (Welfare, police, defence, social security), recognition (race, profession, sexual orientation, business, sexual orientation, single or married), and action (money, punishments, reimbursements, domicile, visitation rights) from the system, and beg often for its interference for its constituents, we therefore grant it a power. And this is it: discernment. It must have the power to categorize. Who is poor, guilty, friend, enemy, retirement aged, hispanic, white, black, architect, school teacher, lawyer, president, soldier, pilot, gay, straight, neither, both, single, married, owed to, owes, guilty, not guilty, afflicted, afflicting, is in georgia, is in texas, is in california, related, unrelated, etc. This is key to our system of law. We give it this power because of the complexity it has due to our requests of it. No one is exempt in this request by virtue of living here. Therefore, we cannot claim infinite equality from the law. This is fine. It's ok. Anyone against it or that says it is not true is simply not looking hard enough. Proposition 8, and anyone who comes against it, are fighting over a power of discernment of the law, and that is the relational status that the law categorizes two people as "marriage". The category has already existed for a long time, and the law has helped, recognized, and acted on this category. And therefore it has interfered. Once again this is ok. Because we expect this of the government. And if we do not consider this fair, than that person does not belong here, and probably not in any other government. They are absolute anarchists. Now, this is the danger that our modern day is putting before our government: regulating on popular basis what the different categories are, and furthermore, what their individual responsibilities, benefits, demerits, restrictions and other qualities are. So, the marriage contract, homosexual relationships, heterosexual relationships, polygamist relationships, incest relationships, and others are all recognized by the law and assigned a status, legal or illegal. This too is ok. They are each individual categories. However, the marriage contract is a far more formal category. Now, this is the problem of not supporting a measure such as prop 8\. You force the law to take two VERY different relationships, with very REAL differences, make it dishonor those differences, and force them into a category that will provide the EXACT same qualities to both relationships. We do not need the law to do this, because it is already done. It's called a union. Furthermore, we are forcing the law to take a category, called a contract, and force it into one of our most fundamental categories: a Right. And we will take it to the supreme court to do this. All in the name of equality. This is perhaps the biggest challenges this country will face. Are we going to force the government to hand over its power of discernment to our will and whim. And then, force it to close its eyes to real differences because of the word of the day, Tolerance and Equality, in this case, and then make it act irrelevant of those differences. The psychological impact that this will have on the future of this nation is unknown and could not be calculated. Because we will begin the eroding of value and difference for the law. Forget the problems for the two groups for and against gay marriage, we are entering a discussion of this nation's government's future, it's quality, and possible eventual demise. **Jimmy Cabrera Jr.** ¡ 2008-11-04 18:21:42 S. Marsh and Catherine, Well, there's nothing more to say and all we can do is wait. This is but one battle we will face. If you're not gay you may never understand how important this election is to us. I know it has NOTHING to do with marriage or a silly proposition or laws. The fact of the matter is that people voting Yes on 8 just have an issue with gay people. They believe that it is something we choose to do- that it's a preference and that we can decide to not be gay. I cannot change the color of my skin or my eye color or change my dominant hand to left. There are certain, dare I say it, God-given attributes and properties in our genetic makeups that we cannot change. Sure, I could start dating girls and sure, I could even have a family with a female. But it honestly, HONESTLY is the same as requiring you two, S. Marsh and Catherine, to only have relationships and families with a person of the same sex. That sounds ridiculous right? Would you be happy? Wouldn't YOU try to change something? What's even more ridiculous is that the opposition is based solely on faith. You can't base a law or discrimination on a particular belief. It's called faith because it's just something you BELIEVE in and those beliefs cannot be imposed on anyone. We all have the option to practice any religion we want to and no one has the right to say that their particular religion is the ONE and ONLY. Who's to say which God is the true God. And that's why it's called faith. It really just hurts when I see the Yes signs and bumper stickers. We all try our best to be good people. I am a son, brother, grandson, student, dancer, bartender, friend, a mentor, and an artist. I am educated. I am polite. You see me in the supermarket- and flash a warm smile as we pass. I was that excellent barista at Starbucks. We want harmony and peace. We are more like you than you're willing to believe. We are here and we just want to live. No one deserves this. **Vladimir** ¡ 2008-11-04 18:54:40 @ Catherine What about the separation of church and state? You can't just vote based solely on your beliefs. Religion shouldn't affect how you think towards the proposition. Sure I see where your coming from about respecting what God wants and his commandments, but you also have to take in account about other people. Don't based your vote based on religion values but on moral ones. And my language is pathetic cause I never was good with vocabulary. **Gerv** ¡ 2008-11-05 00:07:37 Jimmy, "The fact of the matter is that people voting Yes on 8 just have an issue with gay people." You really need to distinguish between "having an issue with gay people" and "having an issue with homosexuality". The lack of understanding of this distinction in the gay community causes so much misunderstanding and hurt. Can you accept that it's possible to have gay friends and value gay people as people, made in the image of God like all humans, while having an issue with what they choose to do? Your identity is not defined by your sexuality. "I cannot change the color of my skin or my eye color or change my dominant hand to left." And yet there are many people who would once have said they were gay and now would say that they are not. Is every single one self-deluded? Experience refutes your assertion that sexuality is entirely fixed like eye colour. (That's not to say changing is easy, far from it.) "You can’t base a law or discrimination on a particular belief." That accusation cuts both ways. If we accept your statement as true, then the belief that same-sex partnerships are morally equivalent to opposite-sex ones is a belief, just as the belief that they are morally different is a belief. You want the law based on one of those beliefs; the supporters of Prop 8 want it based on the other one. "no one has the right to say that their particular religion is the ONE and ONLY" And that's another belief :-) You may hold it, but if you are consistent with your own principles, then you have no right to impose it on other people. If you truly think that "beliefs cannot be imposed on anyone" then you don't get to start sentences with "no-one has the right...". I don't get a vote on Prop 8\. (The result may have been published by now; I haven't looked.) I'm sorry that you feel those who voted Yes don't like you. That may be true of some, I don't know. They must answer for themselves. But it is definitely not true of all. Gerv **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-05 01:27:42 Several points I'd like to state for the record: 1) Marriage is not a right, nor privilege -- it is a choice. 2) Marriage IS also a legal institution in many senses -- however many of these senses also apply to domestic partners or other people legally designated. Getting married just makes those choices more legally clear on paper, with or without pre-nup. 3) People who would be for Prop 8 are people who do not believe in gay unions in any sense, including not believing that they should raise children. Telling them not to "eliminate rights" is a moot argument -- would be like telling someone not to discriminate against pedophiles. 4) The best experts and research re: what is best for raising kids very clearly states that just the mere presence of a mother and father in a child's life is NOT correlated with more emotionally healthy children. Instead the evidence points overwhelmingly toward a stable household with as many loving reliable adult role models, of any gender or relationship, involved in the child's life as being what correlates best with happier and healthier children. On the contrary, in our country homosexual households tend to be, by far, more emotionally and financially stable (more income, less divorce), and with more of the reliable network of loving adults. Also, as 2/3 of children born to straight couples are unplanned, virtually NO children come to a gay couple without significant planning and of course strong desire to raise a healthy child. Gay couples are more likely to be educated, have more disposable income, and be homeowners. Therefore, statistically-speaking, and based on the data and opinions by experts in child psychology (as well as the other facts listed above), gay couples are much more likely to raise emotionally healthy and well-adjusted children than straight couples. 5) Allowing gays to marry really wouldn't give them any more rights than they could otherwise already get in another way (with the possible exceptions of filing taxes and receiving social security, which usually don't matter a whole lot in the longrun). But the effect on the economy, as well as the well-being of children, would be clearly measurable. 6) The rights and benefits that gays want to get by marrying are rights that single (straight or gay) people currently do NOT get, and likely won't long after gays are allowed to marry everywhere. Marriage itself is an antiquated notion whose definition has changed dramatically over the last 1-200yrs, though our culture still values it as the norm for any adult. It is a falsehood to think that allowing gays to marry would relieve the discrimination our society and government imposes on people who do not belong to a families made by heterosexual married couples -- instead, it would just add them to the already unfairly privileged group of "married couples". **beka** ¡ 2008-11-05 04:41:56 *And yet there are many people who would once have said they were gay and now would say that they are not. Is every single one self-deluded?*Considering the aggressive evangelical agenda in pushing the "ex-gay" stance, I would say yes. A brilliant post. <3 Thanks for writing this. **Gerv** ¡ 2008-11-05 06:07:25 *Considering the aggressive evangelical agenda in pushing the “ex-gay” stance, I would say yes.*Isn't that just as patronising and offensive to such people as if someone were to say to a gay man "You're just self-deluded; you like girls really - come on, admit it"? You can't have it both ways. If you don't allow people to self-identify as straight, why should anyone believe you if you self-identify as gay? **Marie** ¡ 2008-11-06 10:11:45 I am very proud to stand with the Church on this issue. In my mind it is the gay movement that is seeking to blur the line between civil rights and morality. The Church has every right to speak on moral issues. I am disappointed that in this article you pit one Church against another. I very much doubt that every Unitarian, Episcopalian, and member of the United Church of Christ is proud of gay marriage. It is a significant deviation from basic morality. I refuse to have my conscience dulled and that of my children, let alone the definition of marriage as established by God, to make a few people happy. If God didn't make the pattern of marriage clear enough when he married Adam and Eve, he certainly displayed his distaste for a gay society when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Historians also contend that the downfall of the Greek and Roman Empires started with a similar decline in morality. I think the Church is concerned, among other things, that eventually the laws of the United States might require Mormons to allows gays to marry in their temples, which would make a complete mockery of God's plan and promises. I am proud to stand for something that I value above nearly all else, the preservation of traditional marriage. Finally, why do gay people demand to be given rights as a separate class when they already have the rights that matter as part of the human class? I would sooner take away the right of judges to marry (which is questionable) than give gay people alternative marriage that dilutes the entire institution. **HappyinCA** ¡ 2008-11-07 15:57:16 Ah, a post "yes" on prop 8 world. How nice it is to see the people who lost take it in stride and go home. Oh wait, we're seeing protests and street closures, signs, and hatred towards religious communities for speaking out and asking for support on a proposition with religous undertones. Shame on the gay community for such behavior. Stolen "Yes on 8" signs, cars vandalized that have "Yes on 8" stickers. We're in support of the keeping marriage as a sacrament, something untouchable by the gay community. If you don't like Prop 8, move. California has now twice voiced it's approval for keeping marriage sacred. Respect the voice of the majority for once instead of sticking your middle fingers up and thinking your voice is louder than the rest of us. **AL** ¡ 2008-11-08 11:32:06 Jimmy, I don’t know if this will make you feel better or not, but I thought have an analogy in an attempt to maybe bridge the chasm of understanding between people that think like I do with people that think like you do. I hope that rather than "causing offense" it "makes sense". Here is the analogy. I have similar feelings regarding smokers that I have with homosexuals. I don’t know how you feel about smoking and smokers, but I’m hoping that you are not a smoker so that you can somewhat relate to what I am saying. I feel that: . Smoking cigarettes can be a "lifestyle choice" for some, can be an addiction for some people, and it is also likely that certain people have a stronger tendency towards desiring cigarettes than other people do; . When a person is introduced to smoking at an early age, it is much more ingrained, and more difficult to ever feel that smoking was not part of their life; . Once a person smokes enough to get over any initial displeasing or negative reactions, the attraction, desire, and cravings become nearly permanent, with that person no longer feeling that they have a "choice" in the matter - indeed it frequently no longer is a "choice" for that person; . People are afraid that cigarette companies are pushing their product on the population, and are especially concerned when it is pushed to young people, knowing that young people are especially susceptible to its influence; . People have a right to smoke, but there need to be limits placed on the influence that tobacco companies can have - the impact that glamorizing cigarettes had (through movies, commercials, etc.) was unquestionably severe; . People have a right to smoke, but when that smoking infringes upon the rights of those who wish not to smoke, or when there are valid concerns that the promotion of smoking will have a negative effect upon society and future generations, it becomes an issue in which limits on such rights need to be at least considered; . Some people are intolerant to smokers, but many times the issue is that people merely dislike the act and cannot tolerate its effects (direct or indirect); . The largest group of people who contract lung cancer are smokers (and largest group of people who contract HIV/AIDS are homosexual); . Smokers (and people who consider themselves to be gay) frequently feel pushed aside and mistreated; . Smokers (and people who consider themselves to be gay) have feelings, are part of society, and have much to offer; . Smokers (and people who consider themselves to be gay) need to be understood, loved, and treated with proper respect; and should be supported and helped in whatever ways give them the best opportunity. I hope you take what I am trying to say in the spirit that I am intending. Animal Lover (AL) **Jimmy Cabrera Jr.** ¡ 2008-11-08 18:06:56 Al, There have been so many posts recently that I've wanted to reply to and have chosen not to. It really feels hopeless- and that I'm wasting my time and there's absolutely no getting through. I was not going to post another response; until now. I'm sorry to say that though your intention was to make me understand your point of view and not to cause offense, it did. It was so incredibly dehumanizing and ignorant that I HAD to reply. The American Psychological Association (APA), the world's largest association of psychologists has stated that: “Homosexuality is not a mental disorder and the APA opposes all portrayals of lesbian, gay and bisexual people as mentally ill and in need of treatment due to their sexual orientation.” CHOICE really needs to be taken out of your analogy. NOBODY chooses to be gay. You will disagree and I fear that this is as far as we are ever going to get. I'm really sad that you've spent so much time creating this analogy that just COMPLETELY misses the mark. I, like so many of my peers, was introduced to smoking at an early age. Like you said, on television, movies, family members; it surrounded me. I've never picked up the habit for several reasons. It's unhealthy and unnecessary. Being gay is not just something you can "pick up." It's not contagious. Exposure won't make your children gay. I can go point by point and dissect your analogy but it really is just a waste of time. The problem with democracy was never so evident to me until the morning of November 3\. Talk to any legitimate psychologist, sociologist, any educated person not affiliated with a gay bashing church, any parent who understands that teachers don't talk about marriage in schools and that this was just a scare tactic to win votes from those who would not look into the facts- - - they will tell you what is really going on. They will all tell you that they voted No on Prop 8\. They will tell you that you should have to. They will ALL tell you that there can be no comparison made between smokers and gay people (NOT "people that considers themselves to be gay") We are real. We are not making it up. We do not have a disorder. There is absolutely nothing wrong with us. We don't have an addiction. You are attracted to the opposite sex and we are attracted to the same sex. Morality, as was brought up in a previous post, doesn't need to be brought up either. I'm extremely familiar with the Bible. I attended private Christian schools until college. I've known that I am gay since puberty. Did I want to be gay? Hell no!!! Does anybody want to face discrimination or be ashamed of WHO THEY ARE? Of course not. This is what we face daily. This is our burden- to inform the uninformed and to do it with class and dignity. We always have to put our best foot forward and realize that we are representing for an entire minority group at all time. I know you feel that we are infringing on YOUR society and YOUR rights - I wish I could feel some sympathy. Before you make claims like, the "largest group of people who contract HIV/AIDS are homosexual" you really should do some research. It's misleading to those who won't actually look into the real statistics. I'll try to end on a positive note- a claim we can both agree on. You say, "\[gay people\] need to be understood, loved, and treated with proper respect; and should be supported and helped in whatever ways give them the best opportunity." I could not agree more. Someone said to me, "It doesn't matter who you love or how your love just THAT you love." Take care AL. I truly wish you the very best. Jimmy. **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-08 19:14:47 I can't believe no one commented on my previous post. Esp since the point was to remind both sides that the controversy hinges on one differing opinion/viewpoint/belief: Are gay people and their relationships \*just as valid, real, and legitimate\* as those of straight people? The No people feel that they \*are\*, therefore there's no reason gay people shouldn't have legal marriages like straight people. The Yes people feel that they \*are not\* (as valid, real, and legitimate), therefore allowing them to marry the same as the rest of us doesn't make sense, and perhaps "blurs the lines" and "opens the doors" to other unconventional unions (animals, children, retarded people, polyamorous, alien beings, etc). Unless one can convince the other, through logic and reason, that their opinion doesn't make sense, there is no point in going back and forth between "it's our right" "no it's not". I would advise the Yes-people to clarify exactly how they come to the conclusion that gay people are not just as valid as straights. One person tried to with his smoking-analogy, which I appreciate actually. However my rebuttal would be that smoking only became kind of a negative thing when it became crystal clear through objective data and evidence that it is extraordinarily unhealthy for those that smoke, as well as those around them -- therefore it is inherently BAD to be addicted to it. Even if one were to agree that gay people are just more "prone" enjoying same-sex relations, there is zero evidence (in fact, probably more to the contrary) that the more you act gay, the more you want to be gay. And there is also no objective evidence (again, actually more to the contrary) that promoting gay people/relationships/unions/parents/families is negative for the overall well-being of society. This latter idea is the ONLY reason why there are No Smoking rules where smoke is more likely than not to negatively affect others or minors -- cumulatively and permanently. Compare that to the dietary habits: It is also well-known that eating a lot of junk food is terrible for your health -- but this does not directly affect the well-being of others, so there are no rules regarding what you can and can't eat, no matter where you are and who sees you. I would likewise advise the No-people to quit just saying "It's about rights" because that is a meaningless argument. Instead, when someone says that a man and woman are what makes a family and good parents -- ask "Then why is divorce and adultery legal?" and "What difference does the marriage license make if civil unions are already legal?" and "Seriously, how does this really affect you and your idea of the perfect marriage? Should people who choose bad partners be prevented from marrying?". If they say it's what "god" intended because it works biologically, then rebut with "Then should people with infertility or above a certain age not marry?" or "After you're done having kids and your kids are grown, what's the point in being married?". You get the point -- you're not just saying how you feel, you're refuting the belief system which supposedly governs this type of legislation. By ferreting out what a "conventional" marriage is really defined as in our society, it becomes more and more clear that there is nothing magic about just being of opposite genders -- but people need to be led down that path with their own beliefs, not yours. Btw -- I'm a straight single girl, and personally feel strongly about gay marriage for reasons of more "negative equality". I think people of all types often commit to each other not for the 'right' reasons, and I feel that they should all have to deal with the same consequences. I feel that gay people should have to go through the same process of marrying as straight people -- and therefore have to jump through all the same hoops to divorce. E.g. I have a lesbian friend who has a collection of 'engagement rings' from commitments to past girlfriends, all of which I thought she jumped into thoughtlessly because it was easy and fun to do so at the time (what girl doesn't love new jewelry?). I have a feeling that we'd probably see LESS unions/commitments in the gay community when it has more legally-binding and serious meaning, and to me that \*strengthens\* the institution of marriage. **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-08 19:29:16 Oh yeah, couple more points I meant to make: 1) AIDS spread more amongst the gay male population for many biological reasons other than the fact that they were attracted to the same sex. Hemophiliacs (another huge demographic) were not "addicted to" needing blood transfusions and that's why they got AIDS. Straight women are actually the fastest growing demographic for turning HIV+, and lesbians actually have the least risk for transmission/infection out of all of them. These are facts. 2) Careful when you just blurt out "It doesn't matter whom you love" and "Everyone should have the right to love/marry whomever they want." I think most of us agree that pedophiles should not marry children, no matter how much they "love them", rapists should not marry retarded people even if both are consenting adults, and polyamorous or bigamous unions would just be too legally complicated to define via official marriage of all partners involved. Basically remember that your opponents put you in the category of sexual deviants, so make sure you always clarify stuff like "as long as we're not hurting anyone". **Jimmy Cabrera Jr.** ¡ 2008-11-08 20:06:45 Thank you Soni. I really appreciate your perspective (coming from a straight single girl) It allows you to be more objective and logical. I have a hard time separating myself from the issue. I'm too involved and it tears at my heart too much. The problem is our opposition doesn't care about the condition of our hearts. I would LOVE it if people would stop associating gay with pedophilia, polygamy, AIDS, and rapists. You don't need to remind me of the context. Associations ARE made. Those words do not even need to be mentioned. It's completely ridiculous. Those people exist independently and should not be grouped with gay. Yeah... i should have known that "doesn't matter whom you love" quote could be taken completely wrong in this particular arena. It was supposed to be just a kind thought and not about pedophilia or rape. I guess i'll be more careful. **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-08 20:14:14 Yes, I think that's exactly it -- both parties' feelings are so inherent to who they are that their arguments end up pretty much moot. This whole thing has reminded me of the big Pro Choice vs Pro Life debates of the 90's, where both sides were saying completely different things, neither one addressing the viewpoint of the other. Drives me nucking futs! ;) **Gerv** ¡ 2008-11-09 03:33:38 Hi Jimmy, Thanks for coming back. But I'm sad that you didn't comment on what I said. In your most recent post, you said "Does anybody want to face discrimination or be ashamed of WHO THEY ARE? Of course not." Can I attempt again to convince you that being gay is not "who you are", just as being straight is not "who I am"? Your identity as a person is not your sexuality. I would say that you are unique, special and important because God created you in his image. You might not agree, but I would hope you could find value in yourself which is not tied to your sexual orientation and activity. If you don't, then your world is going to fall apart when you are old and ugly and no-one wants to have sex with you any more. You say "NOBODY chooses to be gay." That may well be true. But people who are gay and have sex with MOTSS choose to do that. Just as people who are straight and have sex with MOTOS choose to do that. The distinction between the desire and the act itself is a really important one, and it's another thing which the gay community seems to miss about the points made by the other side. There are many Christians who struggle with homosexual desires; struggling with it isn't sinful. Acting on those desires is. I'm sure you make that distinction in your life at some points. I can't be specific because I don't know your mind but have you ever thought "Wouldn't it be great to do ?" (I'm not asking you to confess what it is here!) If you've ever thought of doing something and then your conscience has cried "No! That would be terrible!", and you've not done it, then do you hold yourself morally accountable for that act? No, because there is a difference between the desire (however fleeting) and the act itself. If you don't make that distinction, you'll end up having a miserable life where you are consistently beating yourself up and feeling worthless because of temptations you have which you don't even act upon. So, let's apply that distinction. Prop 8 was not about affirming or disaffirming gay \*people\*. As you and AL agreed, "\[gay people\] need to be understood, loved, and treated with proper respect". It was about affirming or disaffirming homosexual unions, which would (mostly) involve homosexual sex. In other words, asking someone to vote for Prop 8 was asking someone to (effectively) morally approve the act. I really hope that, even if you don't end up agreeing with those on the other side, you can accept that they don't hate you as a person. Of course, if you feel your identity is defined by your sexuality, or that there's no difference between the desire and the act, then I'm afraid you will feel they do hate you. But I would urge you to make those two distinctions - for the reasons I give above. And remember that however bad you may feel about yourself, God's undeserved kindness is enough to cover every sin and rebellious act, and forgiveness, acceptance and love is available to all who turn to him in repentance. Feel free to send me email if you like. Just Google my name. Gerv **AL** ¡ 2008-11-09 16:49:56 Jimmie, Soni, and Gerv, thanks for your comments. I was going to bow out of the conversation myself, but I would like to clarify some things. I’m not sure if they make anyone feel better or not, but I hope so. First, Jimmie – I’m sorry that you were offended by my post. I certainly didn’t take the time to write to you with the hope that you would be offended. I did not say that homosexuality is a mental illness. In my smoking analogy, I provided three (and left room for more) non-mutually-exclusive reasons why people smoke. You focused on “addiction” as if that was the only reason that I stated. Jimme, Soni, regarding smoking being “unhealthy”, that is true, but now you have given me one more data point for my analogy: • Smoking is very unhealthy, costing smokers at least 13 or more years off of their life (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5425a1.htm) and possibly up to 20-25 years. (In comparison, a study documented by the US National Library of Medicine concluded that “life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. Other studies put the number closer to 20 years). Jimmie, like smoking, those years of lost life are not due to genetics – they are due to the lifestyle and all of the physical and emotional stress that go along with it. I’m not sure that the studies are even considering suicide rates for homosexuals, which are also not a favorable statistic. If the “largest group” of people with lung cancer is not smokers, or the “largest group” of people without HIV/AIDS is not homosexuals, then what is the largest group? I consider myself a heterosexual person (gender not stated). I do not believe in sex outside of marriage because of moral reasons. However, if I did not have such moral beliefs, I can tell you without hesitation that if I felt is was right (not to mention adding 14 years to my life), I absolutely would be able to be committed to a relationship to a person of the same sex in spite of my strong opposite-sex attraction (and repulsion to the concept of same-sex sex). I could commit to that relationship and do everything necessary to make it successful, with the possible exception of putting my mouth somewhere below the waist of the other person. I may not be experienced with sex like some on this list, but I know enough about it that it can likely feel good in many forms and with different participants. Close your eyes and you may not even know who whether a male and female is with you. I am not saying that to promote sex (outside of marriage). As you know, I'm not about that. I'm saying it because I don't buy the argument that a person with same-sex attraction cannot make a marriage work with a person of the opposite sex. Relationships are about being **selfless** and **sharing** rather than being **selfish** and **demanding**. All people have thoughts, appetites, desires, and drives (whether it be for sex, food, greed, etc.) that need to be bridled in order to have the best opportunity for health and happiness. I, also, started having attraction feelings around the time of puberty (except my attraction is for the opposite sex). I fully agree with Gerv that life is about controlling the natural desires that come to us. This world would be chaos if everybody acted upon every impulse, craving, desire, or thought that they every had. Jimmie, I’m not saying these things to upset you. I want you to have more than you want yourself. I might guess that your answer will be, “but I would rather live a shorter life with the person I love (of the same sex) rather than with someone of the opposite sex”. I understand what you are (hypothetically) saying, but I’m quite sure that both homosexuals and heterosexuals can love both men and women. I know that I can, and I do. That doesn’t mean that I want have sex with them – it just means that I love them. I’m sure that I could “cohabitate” with a person of my same sex for my lifetime, but I wouldn’t do it because that is not the structure that would allow me my greatest familial potential and greatest potential for health and happiness. In any case, Jimmie, you seem a very nice person and I respect you. You take care, too. Animal Lover (AL) **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-09 17:16:51 Issues: 1) Not everyone believes that acting on desires to be with MOTSS is bad. Not everyone believes in Jesus. Not everyone believes in Santa. Not everyone likes pickles. 2) No one persecutes you because you believe in Jesus and they don't. No one tries to take away your right to pray to him. Why -- because if you're not hurting anyone else, you have the right to practice whatever you believe. 3) Gay people loving each other does not hurt anyone else. That is a fact. They're not abusing children, they're not hurting animals, they're not causing health problems to innocent bystanders. Therefore, the fact that you don't believe it's okay to act on their natural feelings (an opinion which \*millions\* of people in this country disagree with) should not be put into legislation. If you disagree, then you would have to also let people like me ban all churches, because I happen to think that people gathering and talking about loving some random dude they call Jesus is stupid and useless and ignorant, and not the way I want my children raised. In fact, I don't want my children anywhere near people who think like you because I don't want those idiotic ideas infecting their vulnerable minds. And guess what -- lots of people agree with me and have arms to carry signs. If I had a billion dollars, or if I otherwise had the power to do so, do you think it would be fair for me to outlaw all church gatherings because I think that your belief system is fundamentally wrong? **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-09 17:34:03 Sorry Jimmy, your post came after I'd already posted mine. Response to your latest: 1) Smoking directly causes lung cancer. The act of inhaling nicotine and associated carcinogens into your lungs causes lung cancer. If you just pretended to smoke and held unlit cigarettes to your lips, it would not cause lung cancer, and you would be at no increased risk for lung cancer than anyone not pretending to smoke. 2) Having gay sex does not cause AIDS. Having any kind of sex does not cause AIDS. 3) Having any sort of unprotected sex increases your risk of HIV transmission. Gay people practicing safe sex, or uninfected gay people having unprotected monogamous sex has NO greater risk of STD transmission than their straight counterparts. 4) On the contrary, heterosexual sex has some significant health risks that is absent from that of homosexual sex, especially to those of innocent children. No unintended teen pregnancies or crack babies among the gay population... 5) Being gay does not directly cause increased risk of suicide. Living in a society where even your closest friends and family reject you, where you can't be yourself, and where people are against a huge part of what makes you you -> (especially among the adolescent population) lead to increased risk of depression, anxiety, and suicide. Gay people who live free of the above constraints have no higher risk of mental illness than their straight counterparts. 6) Even if all of the above were untrue, getting married does not by definition mean having sex. In fact, most married people would argue the exact opposite. All of these statements refute your train of logic Jimmy. I welcome your rebuttal. **Gerv** ¡ 2008-11-10 14:38:33 Soni: you're assuming that I agree with your presupposition that "if it doesn't physically hurt anyone else, you can do what you like". Regardless of whether I do or not, what's your basis for that presupposition? You'll need to do better than "it seems like a good idea to me and my friends", because if that's all you've got, then how could you say that other people \_ought\_ to agree with you? And how can you criticise them for not doing so? Who made you the moral authority? When did I argue for making homosexuality illegal? That's not what Prop 8 is about, so your statement that "Therefore, the fact that you don’t believe it’s okay to act on their natural feelings should not be put into legislation." is a massive red herring. (It also, incidentally, assumes that natural = good, which is another presupposition you'll need to produce evidence for.) Also, "No one persecutes you because you believe in Jesus and they don’t" is a very US-centric statement. Millions of Christians the world over are persecuted for exactly this reason. **AL** ¡ 2008-11-10 14:52:27 Soni, I’m not sure, but it seems like your response was intended for me and not Jimmie. I am also not so sure to whom your previous post is directed. I didn’t see previous discussions about Jesus, Santa, and pickles, but I might have missed something. Although your six points are interesting and accurate enough not to dwell on the inaccuracies, they are not a refutation of the main additional point I had added and the train of thought it represented – that the life expectancy of smokers and homosexuals is severely lower. That is the case in spite of any truth contained within your six points. That statistics are quite clear. The good news is, as I said, the statistics are not related to genetics, and “stopping smoking” at any time appears to immediately be beneficial towards increasing life expectancy. Animal Lover (AL) **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-10 15:48:12 I apologize, my replies have been meant for Gerv and AL (sorry, I won't be able to distinguish between the two, so if you guys differ significantly on any of your points, please make that clear in your response). This I can say is in response to Gerv's comments: My basis for presupposing that in this country we are expected to have freedom of choice as long as it does not directly hurt anyone else is because...that's what all our other laws and rules are based on. We're allowed to beat ourselves, we're not allowed to beat others. We're allowed to have sex, but not with unconsenting adults or any minors. We're allowed to have whatever religious belief we want, as long as it doesn't include hurting or killing others to practice those beliefs. That is just the way it is in this countries, that's how "civil liberties" are defined, and the reason that (using your analogy) the choice to infect your own body with nicotine have been limited to places where you are only harming yourself, yet not made illegal. I never made any arguments based on what "seems like a good idea to me and my friends", so you'd have to be more specific on what exactly you're trying to refute. I also did not claim to be any moral authority; just giving examples of what types of things are LEGAL in this country/state no matter who agrees/disagrees. No one said that homosexuals are bad people or that their existence should be illegal. However, there have been arguments made that if gays are allowed to marry we are condoning them having gay sex, which is both a sin, and shortens lifespans. An argument that people should be allowed to be gay as long as they don't act gay is inherently flawed. That is equating them with pedophiles, who are allowed to exist as long as they don't act on their preferences. If you are supporting them as people, you are supporting them having relationships both with and without sex, just like the rest of us. That's what it means to be gay. You may like and respect people who identify themselves as gay, but if you think they shouldn't do those things listed above, then sorry to let you know, \*you are anti-gay\*. I didn't say natural=good, just reiterating a previous analogy that wanting to have gay sex is like being addicted to nicotine -- you have the natural urge but doesn't mean it's a good thing and you should resist that urge. If I may paraphrase my understanding of this analogy: it's okay to be an alcoholic, but we cannot condone that you drink. My argument against this idea is directly above. And yes, my viewpoints are US-centric because we're talking about legislation affecting rights in the US today. We're not arguing about whether or not genital mutilation or stoning women should be legal, nor forcing black people to sit in the back of the bus or use separate drinking fountains. We're talking about what WE consider to be most appropriate for citizens of OUR country TODAY. If we lived in a country where Christians were persecuted for their beliefs, or if someday in the US Jesus-loving people were banned from gathering and praying, I would be defending your rights for that too, whether I agree with them or not. Christians, Blacks, gays, women...we've all been discriminated against, and we've all benefited from the progress made in overcoming that. Now Christians can pray wherever they want, Blacks can become president, and women can vote for it all. Now we just have to wait for women to become president, gays to marry, and Christians to vote for it all... **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-10 16:01:38 Now for AL: My references to Jesus, Santa, and pickles were examples of people having different beliefs and opinions on things -- but you're only asking to legislate against the ones that you don't like. If I thought believing in Jesus was stupid and pickles were gross, I wouldn't ask to prevent those that disagree with me from enjoying what they prefer. I think you can understand that. And the truth contained within my points re: life expectancy-thing actually is more than relevant. It is the difference between correlation and causation. This is what I do for a living so the employment of this concept is essential to whether what I do saves or kills people. If these distinctions were not made in the scientific community, we would still be leeching people as a cure for their disease, and everyone today would have to agree that insulin is the number one killer of diabetics. I hope you really do understand this crucial point, but if you don't please let me know and I will try to explain it again, as it 100% refutes the medical-arguments you guys try to make. It is the cornerstone of the allopathic medical paradigm, and is a a concept that \*cannot\* be brushed over when making statements and drawing conclusions about human health and well-being, physical or otherwise. **AL** ¡ 2008-11-10 16:16:59 Soni, I’m very well aware that “correlation does not imply causation”. I never delved into what the causes **were** \- I stated what the causes **were not** (genetics). The fact of the matter is that there is an undeniable “correlation” that in itself is significant. I didn’t really make any “medical arguments” so there was no such medical arguments for you to refute. Can you refute that life expectancy is less? If not, there is nothing for you to refute. Animal Lover (AL) **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-10 16:47:42 Facts that have no argumentative power are considered "circumstantial", not a reason to ever draw any significant conclusion, let alone recommend legislation. Getting AIDS is not a genetic risk, you are correct. It is a result of HIV transmission between certain bodily fluids of humans, any age, any gender, and any sexual orientation, just like the flu virus. Then what is your point? The life expectancy of men are also lower than women, but higher if they get married (to men or women), and their overall workload decreases. Married women, on the other hand, end up with significantly \*more\* work, more stress, and more health co-morbidities, therefore higher mortality rates when married to men. Should we then legislate that all men have to marry by age 30 (when cardiac risks increase), the same way we legislate wearing seatbelts, for their own good? Then for sure we shouldn't allow women to undergo the clearly unhealthy practice of marriage (to men anyway). I'm not talking about causation here -- these are just facts. Arguments re: life expectancy and health risks are medical, whether you are a professional or lay-person. If you don't want to get into discussions of medical facts and scientific reason, then don't. But if you really believe that these are valid points, you have to understand that other intellectuals like you will want them to make sense, so you can't back out half-way through. You wouldn't want your physician to make objective recommendations on what's best for you and your body based on false logic and reasoning methods which have been proven foolish centuries ago -- you'd hope that they would be made based on data and conclusions that makes sense. Now imagine your physician was making a decision for millions of people at the same time...we'd better hope that it's a solid one. **AL** ¡ 2008-11-10 17:20:54 Soni, you’re talking apples and I’m talking oranges. I neither stated nor implied that we should legislate based on anything to do with life expectancy. I have not even been talking about legislation – I was talking about choices based on data available. However, I will make a tangent remark (regarding cigarettes and not intending to be analogous to homosexuality) – how can the FDA ban a “consumer product” like saccharin (a product that has some useful purposes) based on circumstantial high-volume risks that it **may** cause cancer, but not ban the “consumer product” cigarettes when it is **known** to cause cancer? I don’t have a problem discussing medical facts and scientific reason, and I am not “backing out” half-way through. I made a statement about life expectancy (without stating the cause), and you made arguments and stated a few times that you refuted my “argument” when the statement that I said remains unrefuted. You can argue whether data that suggests a loss of 13 years of life is “not a reason to draw any significant conclusion” if you wish. And as to the examples that you made (about the effects of marriage upon life expectancy for men and women), while certainly much less of an impact than “smoking” (a few years lost verses 13 or more years lost), such examples are also not completely useless in drawing significant conclusions. Gotta go. Animal Lover (AL) **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-10 17:53:43 I don't get it...aren't we talking about legislation? Sure, you could say it's stupid for gay people to have sex if it increases their risks of an early death (which I disagree with still, but whatever), just as I could say it's stupid to talk about Jesus like he's a real person and has any influence on the lives we live. But who cares what we think...as long as our beliefs don't negatively affect others. If we think that these beliefs are strong enough that they \*should\* affect others (whether they agree or not), then that's when we have to make some kind of "law" about it, i.e. "legislation". I do still agree that the mere act of smoking decreases life expectancy, so it's fair to say that all smokers put themselves at a higher risk of dying early. I do still DISagree that practicing homosexual sex decreases life expectancy of gay people, no matter which populations you compare head to head. But even if the latter were true -- are you not saying that we \*shouldn't\* condone those acts because they lead to a shorter lifespan? I thought that was your point of comparing it to smokers smoking or whatever. BIG ASIDE (Maybe start a new thread if you want to continue) Re: new laws vs old laws Yes, this is the "grandfather"-phenomenon of the FDA. Nicotine, alcohol, and caffeine would \*never\* be approved for distribution if introduced today. Instead, many medications and substances that actually can give more benefit than harm are being "black-boxed" (if not outright banned/removed) -- something which basically just covers the government's ass and puts the physician at a nice big fat legal risk if they decide to do what they think would best benefit their patient. Along the same lines, the U.S. is usually way behind in accepting/approving stuff that has been benefiting the people in dozens of other industrialized countries for decades. This is often (if not usually) due to a combination of our much more litigious as well as puritanical societal standards that generally do not do much more for us than waste billions of dollars and delay/prevent otherwise standard treatment and care to our people. **marsha flarity** ¡ 2008-11-10 18:05:23 Well, it's a good think Prop 8 Won and your narrow ideas lost. Because you and most others mis-framed the issue. I don't want my health insurance to go up because two roommates, one with a job, one without, decide to get married. I don't want to make it easier to get married. I want it to be harder. Making it easier to be different, or to be gay, doesn't make a stronger, or better society. It makes a different one. Pass. **Jimmy Cabrera Jr.** ¡ 2008-11-10 18:47:15 Yes, Marsha Flarity, you should have passed. Yours has got to be the most ignorant post of them all. Narrow ideas? If the issue has been mis-framed, please explain. Your concern is your health insurance? How pathetically selfish of you. I would love a description of your ideal society. What color would they all be? What would the average income be? What would they name their kids? Why do you want marriage to be harder? I'm honestly stunned by this post and i have nothing more to say at this point. Again, Soni thank you for having our backs. It gets lonely sometimes. It's the 60's all over again. **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-10 19:24:06 I'm not sure if Marsha's post is the most ignorant. She brings up some good points which I actually agree with. It's not fair that some people have to pay more money because of the lifestyle choices of others. Just because 2 people say they have a certain relationship, it means that I have to pay more for my health insurance, or have crappier health insurance so my employer can avoid to cover others who are not like me? And I agree that it should be harder to get married. And it should mean more. I think if gay people want to commit to each other and get all the benefits of straight people, they should have to go through all the same trouble -- not just sign a form that says they're domestic partners. I think that people who are married should pay double the health insurance fees as anyone else...and if they have kids, they pay the proportionate same amount to cover their kids. Just because my colleague chooses to marry and have 5 kids and I choose not to (or at least not yet), I should get a fraction of the benefits he/she does for doing the same job with the same salary?? And people shouldn't be allowed to get married if they aren't really committed and ready for it -- otherwise they're just really planning to increase the divorce rate which is already ridiculous. They shouldn't even discuss marriage if they don't already know each other really well. Or if they're just doing it because they're pregnant...or if they're rushing into it so they can have sex. Or if they haven't already finished school. So basically they should really only grant marriage licenses if you can show proof that you've been dating a long time, that you've already had sex, but been careful so you're not pregnant, and you've already completed your education and ready to settle down. I think that would be what really upholds the sacred institution of marriage which is basically a total joke these days. But until then, I think it's only fair that gay people be expected to participate in its ridiculousness the same as everyone else -- otherwise they get to have whatever relationships they want without having to deal with all the crap that straight people have to, including the 2 out of 3 chance they will have to deal with a divorce. Shielding this community from that hell just because they prefer to be with the same sex is not fair. Single straight people like me make the conscious choice to avoid getting married unless it's for the right reasons, at the right time, and if I'm not pretty damn sure it's going to last -- and for that I sacrifice the benefits of marriage (like milking my colleagues to pay for my spouse and kids, and milking the government from a spouse's social security benefits which I didn't earn myself). It's not fair that gay people get to have their cake and eat it too just because of their sexual preference. **marsha flarity** ¡ 2008-11-11 01:00:13 Jimmy, Sorry you were blown away. Here's another one: Let's not forget that the REASON western society goes through all the hoopla of marriage is that it's the best structure we know of for bearing offspring and raising them. Kind of central to our development and perpetuation as humans. Is marriage perfect? Not when the individuals fail. So don't bother pointing out problems. Is capitalism perfect? No, but our society has determined it's better than alternatives. So why not allow, condone or extend gay marriage? The same reason we don't make "boyfriend" / "girlfriend" an official status. Boyfriends and girlfriends want to assert their love for each other, just like gays. Marriage is the ideal environment / structure to bear and raise children. That's both very difficult to do right, critical to our society. We can't just "outsource" it. So we grant marriage benefits and passes that aren't open to boyfriends/girlfriends. In other words, it's not about YOU, it's about the children. Stop selfishly thinking about yourself, and think about sacrificing your life for your children. The institution of Marriage is strong and protected because is about 2 people coming together to creating and raising children. It's not an award for being a super-special boyfriend. **marsha flarity** ¡ 2008-11-11 01:01:50 \[oops. changed tenses there a bit. sorry.\] **Soni** ¡ 2008-11-11 01:48:54 Marsha brings up another good point. Why do we need to even have some special status granted to people just because they love each other and are extra-committed (esp since that commitment doesn't even mean much these days)? In the past marriage was something people did for purely economic reasons -- like a business transaction or merger if you will. You make money, I'll keep house, and we'll probably make some kids in there too. Nowadays (in western society anyway) marriages do not happen for prudent financial planning or the combining of family estates -- it's about love and commitment and planning to spend the rest of your life in a partnership with someone. But Marsha's right, we can do that without getting married. The official legal marriage is sort of like having a joint bank account for life -- in that future resources and assets the couple create together, including children, will have joint responsibility and "ownership" (for lack of a better term). Re: children, biologically you need resources from 2 humans of the opposite sex to make them, so we evolved to be attracted to each other to make that happen -- which also lends itself to this man-woman union in marriage as above. However, none of the above applies anymore. Women don't need men to have money or houses, and men don't get "paid" to take a man's daughter off his hands (i.e. dowry). We still need the male and female parts to make a baby, but we now know (yes "know") that it is not necessary to have those same 2 male and female bodies around to raise a happy, healthy child. We have adoption, we have fertility treatments, we have divorce, and of course we have parents whose spouses are involuntarily absent for other reasons -- and still children who grow up happy and well-adjusted with lots of love in their lives. As I've stated in earlier posts that there is now clear data re: what type of home/family/parenting-situation is correlated with happy healthy children, and it is NOT the traditional nuclear family we all used to think was ideal. I've read several books addressing this issue and I do believe this data that comes from the more objective studies and the more experienced experts in this field. I'm still not sure how I feel about the necessity for the legal bond of marriage though...but Marsha's point makes some sense in that it is a simple framework one can put together to plan to raise a family, i.e. the 2 gamete-donors being legally-bonded to raise the child(ren) they conceive together. Even though I don't believe there is something particularly special or "better" about this family configuration than others (in fact there are many arguments to be made for it being socially NOT ideal for raising children), I do agree it's the simplest in terms of making them. However...in that case, I don't see what the point is of 2 people getting married if they're not about to make kids together. Like, say you choose not have kids with your partner, male or female. Or you're older (either already had kids or never planned to, or you're widowed and want to spend your golden years with your nursing home sweetheart) -- what's the point of legal unions in those cases? Plus what if for whatever reason this couple needs to use someone else's gametes anyway, or say they don't plan to have kids for at least 5yrs or something...what's the purpose of these people marrying? Why can't these people just be extra-special boy/girlfriends, and save the marriage benefits for the families they're meant for? So again, I kind of agree with Marsha -- if we are to consider marriage something more than just "extra-committing" to your boy/girlfriend, then we should limit it to people for whom it actually serves a purpose. I think couples should only be getting married when they're about to start having children, and not before -- otherwise why should these adults get the benefits that are supposed to be reserved for families with \*children\*? For it to be fair to the marriages with a \*real\* purpose, if a married couple ends up not having kids as expected (for whatever reason), they need to annul their marriage. And of course anyone who is physically unable to bear children (due to age or whatever) should never be granted marriage licenses until they have a child coming to them by some other means. The other cool thing about Marsha's idea is that it makes divorce sort of unnecessary, because either you marry and have kids, or you don't marry at all -- so if you want to break up, you just break up, without tarnishing the institution of marriage. And people who have kids but no longer want to be romantic partners (as much as we don't want that to happen, occasionally I'm sure it still will), well...they can split and have different lives, but they're still parents of that child so they may as well stay married. Unless they're planning to immediately bear children with someone else, there's really no need to divorce their ex-. This is exciting, I think we really are coming up with some great ideas for a fair and equal society! We should all collaborate on a new bill for 2010! :) **[Web Designer](http://www.blackstonemedia.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-11 11:48:36 I completely agree with everything you stated in your blog post, and I am 100% against Proposition 8\. No one should be able to keep to people from getting married if they really want to. Everyone should have the same rights. There is no room for discrimination in this world, especially with everything else that is going on. People need to grow up and learn that not everyone is the same and there is nothing wrong with being different or change. I'm glad to see someone with the same views as me. Thank you. **AL** ¡ 2008-11-11 12:41:54 Soni, I think we are getting closer to communicating now, but I need to follow up on a few of your comments. > I don’t get it…aren’t we talking about legislation? No, not always - at least that wasn’t my main objective in most of my posts. Sorry to confuse you since many of the other posts are related to the issues of legislation. The reason I suggested the “smoking” analogy was because I was hoping that it would allow people who think differently than I do to at least slightly be able to understand why I think the way I do. The reason I added the “life expectancy” thought was because it should be a consideration for anyone that is involved in smoking or homosexuality. Whether or not a cause for the “lost years” is known or identified, it is highly likely that lifestyle changes can extend life expectancy (that’s fine if you disagree). If even one person who reads this can gain even an extra year of life, then mentioning it was worth it. > I do still agree that the mere act of smoking decreases life expectancy, so it’s fair to say that all smokers put themselves at a higher risk of dying early. I do still DISagree that practicing homosexual sex decreases life expectancy of gay people, no matter which populations you compare head to head. But even if the latter were true — are you not saying that we \*shouldn’t\* condone those acts because they lead to a shorter lifespan? I thought that was your point of comparing it to smokers smoking or whatever. Nope, I wasn’t implying whether to “condone” anything or not. I was merely saying that if it were me and I saw a “correlation” between something I was doing that could severely decrease the years of my life, I would need to think real hard about maybe doing something differently. > Yes, this is the “grandfather”-phenomenon of the FDA. Nicotine, alcohol, and caffeine would \*never\* be approved for distribution if introduced today. Sorry for the continuing the tangent briefly, but one last comment on this. Why can’t smoking truly be “grandfathered” (such that it is phased out)? Speaking of ideas and solutions, I have one. It is very simple. Rather than using a “relative” date to determine whether a patron could purchase cigarettes or not, an “absolute” date could be used. It’s also easy – no math needed. All that would be needed would be for cigarette points-of-sale to check ID (which is already required), but instead of checking whether the purchaser is 18 or 19 (depending on current state rules), simply check to see if the person was born before 1990 (even in subsequent years). Each year, the age requirement would effectively increase by one year. That also eliminates any math for age calculation. No (or very few) new cigarette addictions, and eventually, cigarettes would be phased out. > Re: children, biologically you need resources from 2 humans of the opposite sex to make them, so we evolved to be attracted to each other to make that happen The last thing Chris probably wants or expects is for this comment thread to head into a heated discussion about the Theory of Evolution, but I feel that this indeed is a key factor in why people are at odds on so many of the key issues of today. I know that many of you will disagree with me on this statement, but the theory of evolution has fatal flaws, and is at the core of most of these key issues. Before someone labels me a “creationist nutcase”, I will just clarify that a more accurate description of my position is “anti-evolutionist”. A person does not need to be a creationist to find flaws with evolution. Whether or not I believe in a creation does not need to affect the arguments against evolution. I have extensively studied and thought about all of the “theory of evolution” propaganda and have found too many issues to consider it even remotely viable. I could write a book on it (and I might), but the simplest explanation is follows: initially, the theory of evolution was based on “natural selection”; but Darwin soon realized that natural selection only gets you so far (varieties of the same kind with different attributes (coloring, size, etc.)). Kind would still beget kind. So, “mutation” was added to fill in the gap necessary to attempt to explain how single-celled organisms can evolve to complex life forms. Mutation is the flimsy keystone in which archway of evolution collapses. Again, I could go into extensive detail as to why the total reliance on mutation is fatally flawed, but that is for another time and place. Suffice it to say that: 1\. Natural selection is mutation’s worst enemy – they do not work “together” to progress a life-form; 2\. Mutation never has and never could explain even simple complexity “enhancements”, let alone explain new features such has new limbs, organs, “body systems”, etc. So, what does evolution have to do with the topic of homosexuality (or abortion, or any current issue)? Well, two things: 1\. When a person is steeped in the “evolution” mentality, then that person generally thinks that “we are an ‘effect’ ” rather than “we can ‘affect’ “. People like this talk in terms of “gamete donors” and “fetus” rather than “parents” and “child”. People argue that “things don’t matter” because “things have just happened in the past”. There was no purpose, no morality, just “evolution”. 2\. The second item is huge with me because it represents the **main** reason why I voted yes on Proposition 8\. The theory of evolution infiltrated our society (mostly through the education system) and has done an untold amount of damage. “Piltdown man” was a 40-year hoax, during which time Evolution made some its most significant headway into textbooks and into the educational system. It is largely accepted as fact by most people today (although if you ask people whether they believe that humans evolved from single-celled organisms, then people start to back off some). So, the bottom line is that “policy” and “politics” can definitely frame belief and morality. What does it hurt if evolution is “required” to be taught in schools? Now we know. I probably won’t be able to respond for a while. Thanks for the discussion. Animal Lover (AL) **Gerv** ¡ 2008-11-11 12:43:49 *If you are supporting them as people, you are supporting them having relationships both with and without sex, just like the rest of us. That’s what it means to be gay. You may like and respect people who identify themselves as gay, but if you think they shouldn’t do those things listed above, then sorry to let you know, \*you are anti-gay\*.*I like and respect many of my unmarried heterosexual friends, but I think they shouldn't have sex. In other words, I support them as people but I don't support them having relationships with sex involved. (And, incidentally, if someone wanted to make a law that said that if you live with someone, that's legally the same as marriage, I'd oppose that too.) Does that make me anti-them as well? Sounds like, by your definition, I'm a pretty-much-everyone-phobe. I would refer you again to my comments about separating identity and sexuality, and separating the desire and the act. If you don't think those things can be separated, then I'm afraid you are going to think that I don't like you as a person. All I can do is continue to tell you that you're mistaken. :-) **Rhita** ¡ 2008-11-13 13:05:23 Apparently, Seventh-Day Adventist Church opposes gay rights. Even though numerous and respected Seventh-day Adventists scholars and administrators personally urged voting no on proposition 8, the Seventh-day Adventist Church (along with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses) argue against gay rights and gay marriage issues holding that religious liberty is only concerned with the first four of the Ten Commandments, or one's obligations to God. When a gay marriage bill came before the California legislature in April, 2004, Adventist church members were urged to contact their representatives and voice their opposition. In "The Liberty Blog" the religious liberty director for the North American Division of the Adventist church argued against the proposed federal "Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007," suggesting it could have an indirect impact on free speech, would give special protection, would be unnecessary since local laws already provide protection against hate crimes, and could lead to marginalizing those who oppose homosexual practice. In the September/October, 2004, issue of church periodical, Liberty, which was devoted to the issue of gay marriage, another religious liberty director called for the church not to remain silent in opposing gay rights. Most recently, the Seventh-day Adventist Church has strongly asserted in it's churches that it opposes all gay rights including gay marriage. In doing so, it has encouraged members to not only vote for Proposition 8, but to also financially support any and all efforts to oppose gay marriage rights. **cloudy in sunny ca** ¡ 2008-11-16 09:45:51 As i see it, the constitution states we must "separate church and state". It also says "equal rights for all". So, as an anti-8 Californian we have just voted in an OXYMORON. Does that mean that over have of Californians are MORONS???? **Ernestt** ¡ 2008-11-26 00:36:26 Same sex marriage supporters have played the "victim" role in portraying the Catholics, Mormons, or other Christian faiths as "hateful" and "discriminatory". They demand "respect" through force while indoctrinating our school children, having marriage licenses issued unlawfully, overturning the overwhelmingly supported Prop. 22, rushing to get married "legally" before Prop. 8 was decided, then challenging the will of the people on Prop. 8\. People of faith will defend their beliefs upholding the moral principles of marriage and protecting their children from the promoters of an immoral lifestyle. This moral battle will continue. Immorality is not "equality". "Respect" is not force. "Education" is not indoctrinating kindergartners. Defending religious beliefs is not "hate speech". Protecting marriage is not "discrimination". The "alternative life style" typically attacks viciously, smearing persons or institutions be it governments, politicians, businesses, corporations, religious bodies, or educational institutions opposing any part of their agenda. They play the "victim" to gain sympathy for being a "discriminated minority". The "real" victim will be people of faith who they label as having "hate speech" or "discrimination." Look what has happened in Massachusetts or Canada for challenges to faith. **Dave** ¡ 2009-01-03 11:35:01 Interesting. We pass a law that prohibits "gay marriage". Does that make all the gay people change? Does that really solve any problems? The way I see it, passing a law that prohibits gay marriage does nothing but create another problem. The existence or non-existence of law does not, and will never "just make gay people go away" or force them to change. How about this law: Two people (man and woman) cannot be considered married legally until they produce offspring - if they cannot - or do not - produce offspring, they can never be married in the eyes of the Lord or the eyes of the law. So if you were to get married (under that law) to that sweetheart of yours, and find that you are incapable of producing offspring, your marriage and all its benefits will be canceled. Homophobes, think about that as you go about your rightful legislation of morality! **Ernestt** ¡ 2009-01-03 13:04:40 Same sex marriage supporters have played the "victim" role in portraying the Catholics, Mormons, or other Christian faiths as "hateful" and "discriminatory". They demand "respect" through force while indoctrinating our school children, having marriage licenses issued unlawfully, overturning the overwhelmingly supported Prop. 22, rushing to get married "legally" before Prop. 8 was decided, then challenging the will of the people on Prop. 8\. People of faith will defend their beliefs upholding the moral principles of marriage and protecting their children from the promoters of an immoral lifestyle. This moral battle will continue. Immorality is not "equality". "Respect" is not force. "Education" is not indoctrinating kindergartners. Defending religious beliefs is not "hate speech". Protecting marriage is not "discrimination". **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-03 13:18:31 I'm pretty impressed with the extent of the discourse here, and how long the conversation has gone on. It seems clear to me that this is not a matter that will be "decided", but will continue to play out over time with no real end-point. It's up to both sides to reason and advocate for their beliefs, ideally in a civil and rational matter (even though this matter is beyond logical deduction alone). I think Jon Stewart's [interview with Mike Huckabee](http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/index.jhtml?episodeId=213344&ref=chrismessina.me) captured the stalemate of this debate well. So, I'll leave it at that -- and will close the comments on this post. Thanks all who contributed your voice. ### Obama Phone! URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/obama-phone/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:05.000Z ![Obama Phone](http://img.skitch.com/20081003-gkha5phjm2b5pu85m4d2rum251.jpg) If you haven't heard about this yet, the [Obama campaign](http://www.barackobama.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [today](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578%5F3-10056519-38.html?tag=newsEditorsPicksArea.0&ref=chrismessina.me) [released](http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/external%5Forganizing/gGxjBN?ref=chrismessina.me) an [iPhone app](http://www.barackobama.com/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me) that, among [other features](http://www.tuaw.com/2008/10/02/official-iphone-app-for-obama-08-now-in-app-store/?ref=chrismessina.me), enables you to call your friends prioritized by their location in battleground states. This is critical. There's nothing more important, or more influential, than friends encouraging friends to vote, and when it comes to getting informed on the issues and what's at stake, nothing is more effective than getting an impassioned plea from a personal contact or relative. Providing a tool that allows people to get in touch with people who they personally know is so much better than cold-calling phone banking (the importance of that tactic notwithstanding given the need to reach out beyond the friends of iPhone owners). You can [get the app](http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=292168926&mt=8&ref=chrismessina.me) in the iTunes App Store. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/dominic/2906949353/?ref=chrismessina.me)The Obama '08 app development was spearheaded by personal friends of mine — co-organizers of the popular [iPhoneDevCamps](http://www.iphonedevcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) that we held the past two years at Adobe's offices in San Francisco (which are now [spreading](http://www.iphonedevcamp.org/2008/08/15/international/?ref=chrismessina.me), like all good \*camp events should!). Specifically, props go to [Dom Sagolla](http://dom.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Raven Zachary](http://raven.me/?ref=chrismessina.me), without whom this application might never have happened. But credit is also due to the [entire top-tier team](http://www.iphonedevcamp.org/2008/10/02/obama-08-iphone-app/?ref=chrismessina.me) that spent countless hours over the past month putting this app together (\*iPhoneDevCamp alumni): - [Raven Zachary](http://twitter.com/ravenme?ref=chrismessina.me) (Project Director) \* - [Jason Grigsby](http://twitter.com/grigs?ref=chrismessina.me) (Project Manager) - [John Keith](http://twitter.com/jtkeith?ref=chrismessina.me) (Server Development) - [Lyza Gardner](http://twitter.com/lyzadanger?ref=chrismessina.me) (Server Development, Design) - [Aileen Jeffries](http://twitter.com/aileen%5Fjeffries?ref=chrismessina.me) (Design) - [Jonathan Wight](http://twitter.com/schwa?ref=chrismessina.me) (Lead iPhone Development) \* - [Dom Sagolla](http://twitter.com/dom?ref=chrismessina.me) (QA, Community Development) \* - [Mike Lee](http://twitter.com/bmf?ref=chrismessina.me) (iPhone Development, UI) \* - [Louie Mantia](http://twitter.com/louiemantia?ref=chrismessina.me) (Design) \* - [Tristan O’Tierney](http://twitter.com/omnivector?ref=chrismessina.me) (iPhone Development) \* What's significant is not only the application, but what this move represents for those of us who live and breathe the web and open source: this app is born of both, reusing a number of [open source components](http://code.google.com/p/touchcode/?ref=chrismessina.me) and, from the outset, leverages the web with [presence](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2908865968/?ref=chrismessina.me) on social networks [like Facebook](http://www.new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=28782373194&ref=chrismessina.me). This is the Obama campaign reaching out to the open source and iPhone development communities and working with us to do what we know how to do best, and giving us a space in which we can make a difference for the campaign. We're nearly a month a way from the election, and that means that if *you* want to participate, you're going to need be [registered to vote](http://maps.google.com/vote?ref=chrismessina.me) [beforehand](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhDRVKDcXQo&feature=user&ref=chrismessina.me). It also means that if you've been waiting, or holding out, and looking for an opening to get involved, now's your chance. As Raven [says](http://raven.me/2008/10/02/obama-08-for-iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me), making a few simple calls with this [app](http://www.barackobama.com/iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me) enables even '[The Two Minute Volunteer](http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/stateupdates/gGxG5h?ref=chrismessina.me)’ to make a substantial difference by personally involving friends and family in the election. Seeing this work inspires and gives me hope; if we can keep up this kind of innovative thinking for the next 30 days, I think it's clear that the [best candidate](http://www.barackobama.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is going to come out on top and get the country back on its proper footing. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Dom Sagolla](http://dom.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-03 07:28:15 Thanks for your early feedback and help in testing this app, Chris! I hereby put dibs on you for our next team. Infinity -- plus one! **[John Flynn](http://www.inboundinternetmarketing.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-03 11:35:23 How great is this! Very smart. Using other people's networks to sell your product. Great stuff. www.thebadsalesrep.com **[Social Branding (3 of 3) | brants](http://www.manuscrypts.com/brants/?p=555&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-09 18:57:01 \[...\] And these days the biggest marketer online is after all Obama. He’s got himself an iPhone app, which enables you to call your friends prioritized by their location in battleground states. That nothing works better than peer recommendation is a smart understanding. Read about it here. \[...\] ### Bookmarks for September 01 to September 15 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-september-01-to-september-15/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:46.000Z A bi-weekly collection of linky goodness. #### [Bytes of Life - washingtonpost.com](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/08/AR2008090802681.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Bytes of Life - washingtonpost.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/stujugeno/thumbnail/160) "When San Francisco couple Brynn Evans and Chris Messina heard of a new Web site called BedPost, they registered an account before the site was even out of beta. BedPost was created to map users' sex lives online -- everything from partner to duration of the encounter to descriptive words, which could later be viewed as a tag cloud." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [privacy](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/privacy?ref=chrismessina.me), [brynn evans](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/brynn%20evans?ref=chrismessina.me), [chris messina](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/chris%20messina?ref=chrismessina.me), [bedposted](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bedposted?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### After 1984 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/after-1984/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:04.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2844619884/?ref=chrismessina.me) [iTunes 8](http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/09/apple-launches-itunes-8-nbc-comes-back-tv-shows-at-1-99/?ref=chrismessina.me) has added [a new feature](http://venturebeat.com/2008/09/03/itunes-8-with-genius-recommendations-a-new-visualizer-and-hd-tv-shows/?ref=chrismessina.me) called "Genius" that [harnesses](http://www.apple.com/itunes/whatsnew/?ref=chrismessina.me) the collective behavior of iTunes Music Store shoppers [to generate "perfect" playlists](http://www.apple.com/itunes/whatsnew/genius.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Had an interesting email exchange with my mom earlier today about Monica Hesse's story [*Bytes of Life*](http://tr.im/bytes?ref=chrismessina.me). The crux of the story is that more and more people are self-monitoring and collecting data about themselves, in many cases, because, well, it's gotten so much easier, so, *why not?* Well, yes, it is easier, but just because it is easier, doesn't automatically mean that one should do it, so let's look at this a little more deeply. First, my mom asked about the amount of effort involved in tracking all this data: > I still have a hard time even considering all that time and effort spent in detailing every moment of one's life, and then the other side of it which is that it all has to be read and processed in order to "know oneself". I think I like the Jon Cabot Zinn philosophy better -- just BE in the moment, being mindful of each second doesn't require one to log or blog it, I don't think. Just BE in it. Monica didn't really touch on too many tools that we use to self-monitor. It's true that, depending on the kind of data we're collecting, the effort will vary. But so will the benefits. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2843617144/?ref=chrismessina.me)If you take a look at MyMileMarker's [iPhone interface](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2843617144/sizes/o/?ref=chrismessina.me), you'll see how quick and painless it is to record this information. Why bother? Well, for one thing, over time you get to see not only how much fuel you're consuming, but how much it's going to cost you to keep running your car in the future: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2843622690/?ref=chrismessina.me)Without collecting this data, you might guess at your MPG, or take the manufacturer's rating as given, but when you record what actually is happening, you can prove to yourself whether [filling up your tires](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akjXqfvLu28&ref=chrismessina.me) really does save you money (or the planet). On the topic of the environment, recording my trips on Dopplr gives me an actual view of [my carbon footprint](http://www.dopplr.com/traveller/factoryjoe/carbon?ref=chrismessina.me) (pretty damning, indeed): [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2844694800/?ref=chrismessina.me)As my mom pointed out, perhaps having access to this data will encourage me to cut back excess travel — or to consolidate my trips. [Ross Mayfield](http://ross.typepad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) suggests that he could [potentially quit smoking](http://ross.typepad.com/blog/2008/09/lifetracking-is.html?ref=chrismessina.me) if his habit were made more plainly visible to him. What's also interesting is how passive monitors, or semi-passive monitoring tools, can also inform, educate or predict — and on this point I'm thinking of [Last.fm](http://www.last.fm/?ref=chrismessina.me) where of course my music taste is [aggregated](http://www.last.fm/user/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me), or location-based sites like Brightkite, where my locative behavior is tracked (albeit, manually — though [Fire Eagle + Spot changes that](http://cp.gpsworld.com/gpscp/LBS+News/Spot-to-Integrate-Yahoo-Fire-Eagle-with-Spot-Messe/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/542380?ref=chrismessina.me)). My mom's other point about the ability to just BE in the moment is also important — because self-tracking should ideally be non-invasive. In other words, it shouldn't be the tracking that changes your behavior, but your analysis and reflection after the fact. One of the stronger points I might make about this is that data, especially when collected regularly and when the right indicators are recorded, you can reduce a great amount of distortion from your self-serving biases. Monica writes: > "We all have the tendency to see our behaviors in a little bit of a halo," says Jayne Gackenbach, who researches the psychology of the Internet at Grant MacEwan College in Alberta, Canada. It's why dieters underestimate their food intake, why smokers say they go through fewer cigarettes than they do. "If people can get at some objective criteria, it would be wonderfully informative." That's the brilliance, she says, of new technology. ![big-brother](http://img.skitch.com/20080910-f2tdxxrqjsp2tb3r3xnf7mierm.jpg) So that's great and all, but all of this, at least for my mom, raises the spectre of George Orwell's ubiquitous and all-knowing "[Big Brother](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big%5FBrother%5F%281984%29?ref=chrismessina.me)" from [Nineteen Eighty-Four](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen%5FEighty-Four?ref=chrismessina.me) and [neo-Taylorism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific%5Fmanagement?ref=chrismessina.me): > I do agree that people lie, or misperceive, and that data is a truer bearer of actualities. I guess I don't care. Story telling is an art form, too. There's something sort of 1984ish about all this data collection - - as if the accumulated data could eventually turn us all into robotic creatures too self-programmed to suck the real juice out of life. I certainly am sympathetic to that view, especially because the characterization of life in 1984 was so compelling and visceral. The problem is that this analogy invariably falls short, especially in [other conversations](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/09/02/musings-on-chrome-the-rebirth-of-the-location-bar-and-privacy-in-the-cloud/?ref=chrismessina.me) when you're talking about the likes of [Google](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google%5Fand%5Fprivacy%5Fa%5Fhistory.php?ref=chrismessina.me) and other web-based companies. In 1984, Big Brother symbolized the encroachment of the government on the life of the private citizen. Since the government had the ability to lock you up or take you away based on your behavior, you can imagine that this kind of dystopic vision would resonate in a time when increasingly fewer people probably understand the guts of technology and yet increasingly rely on it, shoveling more and more of their data into online repositories, or having it collected about them as they visit various websites. Never before has the human race had so much data about itself, and yet (likely) so little understanding. The difference, as I explained to my mom, comes down to access to — and leverage over — the data: > I want to write more about this, but I don't think 1984 is an apt analogy here. In the book, the government knows everything about the citizenry, and makes decisions using that data, towards maximizing efficiency for some unknown — or spiritually void — end. In this case, we're flipping 1984 on its head! In this case we're collecting the data on OURSELVES — empowering ourselves to know more than the credit card companies and banks! It's certainly a daunting and scary thought to realize how much data OTHER people have about us — but what better way to get a leg up then to start looking at ourselves, and collecting that information for our own benefit? I used to be pretty skeptical of all this too... but since I've seen the tools, and I've seen the value of data — I just don't want other people to profit off of my behaviors... I want to be able to benefit from it as well — in ways that I dictate — on my terms! In any case, [Tim O'Reilly](http://tim.oreilly.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is right: [data *is* the new Intel inside](http://radar.oreilly.com/2007/12/google-admits-data-is-the-inte.html?ref=chrismessina.me). But shouldn't we be getting a piece of the action if we're talking about data about *us*? Shouldn't we write the book on what 2014 is going to look like so we can put the tired 1984 analogies to rest for awhile and take advantage of what is unfolding today? I'm certainly weary of large corporate behemoths usurping the role the government played in 1984, but frankly, I think we've gone beyond that point. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Martin May](http://brightkite.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-09 22:46:48 You know that Brightkite has SPOT integration as well, right? Just direct your SPOT emails to your BK email address, and it will check you in :) **[Paul Watson](http://paulmwatson.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-10 07:47:39 Fascinating idea that, that we are flipping control. By recording and then understanding our data we may choose better and apply more pressure for others to choose better and for companies to deliver more. **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-10 08:23:57 By recording and \*sharing\* data, we are giving others the ability to "spy on" us. We're also giving the companies that collect that data for us that ability. The benefits, in many cases, do outweigh the costs, though :) **[Paul Watson](http://paulmwatson.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-10 08:27:33 Anonymous aggregate data seems to have few costs. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-10 08:56:42 @Stephen -- sure, but the difference is that \*anyone\* can "spy on" (or surveil) us (many already are) equally. Those who do the best surveilling, and then provide me with the best service, will likely get my business. The difference here is that we're talking about business/economics... to a lesser degree mind-control and skull drudgery. It also opens up, as you know, the possibility for peers to access data about you, and then to know you better, and perhaps to discover things about you that you want people to know. All of this implies being aware and savvy of what you do decide to share or publish on line of course, and that decision should be a personal one. I just think that there's too much emphasis on 1984esque boogeymen than clear thinking or open debate about what's possible now that this data is also available for \*us\* to use for our \*own\* benefit! **[Unit Structures – Search, Lifestreaming and Outsourcing](http://fstutzman.com/2008/09/11/search-lifestreaming-and-outsourcing/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-11 05:37:14 \[...\] paradigm of us integrating ubicomp into our lives). Chris Messina, featured in the article, delivers another fantastic blog entry, providing a little more background on the \[...\] **Todd** ¡ 2008-09-11 07:13:44 Don't forget the inverted usage: Intentionally publishing erroneous location data about yourself! Project some trouble making, evil doppelganger image of yourself into places that would freak out those spying on you. ;P **[david gratton](http://www.davidrdgratton.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-11 08:56:20 I like your idea of using our aggregate data as a type of data based bio-feedback to help modify our behavior for some desired outcome. I would love to know what my overall energy consumption is and how it compares to my community, country and world on average. I am aware from the local news that Canadians are the biggest energy wasters per capital in the world, but it simply is not VISIBLE to me on a personal level. **[Dan Benyamin](http://dan.benyamin.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-11 11:48:27 Yeah one of the most obvious examples of this is mint.com -- once I convinced my wife to get past the admittedly scary step of typing in your banking information, the benefit to that loss of privacy seemed easy to weigh: we get marketed by financial institutions anyway, so the fact that the marketing has become more targeted \_feels\_ like it is worth the loss of privacy for a great personalized service. But I suspect this stems from the fact that it is hard to really qualify that loss, so that you are just weighing two fuzzy concepts...? ### Bookmarks for August 18 to September 01 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-august-18-to-september-01/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:03.000Z A bi-weekly collection of linky goodness. #### [Icon Lab - Home](http://theiconlab.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Icon Lab - Home](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wewotesh/thumbnail/160) Icon Lab is here to provide you with quality stock and custom icons for use in both personal and commercial projects. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [icons](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/icons?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [GMDesk - run Gmail, Google Calendar, Google Docs and Google Maps as a stand-alone installable application](http://www.robertnyman.com/gmdesk/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![GMDesk - run Gmail, Google Calendar, Google Docs and Google Maps as a stand-alone installable application](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/vrethalawun/thumbnail/160) GMDesk is an application that lets you run Gmail, Google Calendar, Google Docs and Google Maps as a stand-alone application to do all your mail handling, calendar event reading etc with. No need to open it up in a web browser, or have it clutter your workspace. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [google](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/google?ref=chrismessina.me), [gmail](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gmail?ref=chrismessina.me), [site-specific browsers](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/site-specific%20browsers?ref=chrismessina.me), [adobe air](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/adobe%20air?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Ish** ¡ 2008-09-07 20:29:58 almost did what I needed to do. But what if I have multiple google accounts (I have 3). Waiting for Google Chrome for OS X. ### Musings on Chrome, the rebirth of the location bar and privacy in the cloud URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/musings-on-chrome-the-rebirth-of-the-location-bar-and-privacy-in-the-cloud/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:34.000Z Imagine a browser *of the web*, *by the web*, and *for the web*. Not simply a thick client application that simply opens documents with the `http://` protocol instead of `file://`, but one that [runs *web applications*](http://blog.digitalbackcountry.com/?p=1620&ref=chrismessina.me) (efficiently!), that [*plays the web*](http://playtheweb.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), that connects people [across the boundaries of the silos](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and gives them [local-like access to remote data](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/10/05/socially-networked-harddrives/?ref=chrismessina.me). It might not be [Chrome](http://google.com/chrome?ref=chrismessina.me), but it's a damn near approximation, given what people [are used to](http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/?ref=chrismessina.me) today. Take a step back. You can see the relics of desktop computing in our applications' ***file menus***... and we can intuit the assumptions that the original designer must have made about the user, her context and the interaction expectations she brought with her: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2822674850/?ref=chrismessina.me)This is not a [start menu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start%5Fmenu?ref=chrismessina.me) or a [Dock](http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2474?viewlocale=en%5FUS&ref=chrismessina.me). This is a document-driven menubar that's barely changed since [Netscape Communicator](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:OS2%5FNetscape%5FCommunicator%5F4.61.png?ref=chrismessina.me). Indeed, the browser is a funny thing, because it's really [just a wrapper](http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2008/09/the%5Fclouds%5Fchro.php?ref=chrismessina.me) for someone else's content or someone's else's application. That's why it's not about "[features](http://ptech.allthingsd.com/20080902/first-test-of-googles-new-browser/?ref=chrismessina.me)". It's all about [*which* features](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlh8gSF%5FhhE&ref=chrismessina.me), especially for developers. It's a [hugely powerful place to insert oneself](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGmO7Oximw8&ref=chrismessina.me): between a person and the vast expanse that is the Open Web. Better yet: to be the conduit through which anyone projects herself on to the web, or reaches into the digital void to do *something*. So if you were going to [design a new browser](http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/why.html?hl=en&ref=chrismessina.me), how would you handle the enormity of that responsibility? How would you seize the monument of that opportunity and create something great? Well, for starters, you'd probably want to think about that first run experience — what it's like to get behind the wheel for the very time with a newly minted driver's permit — with the daunting realization that you can now go *anywhere* you please...! Which is of course awesome, until you realize that you have no idea where to go *first*! Historically, the solution has been to flip-flop between [portals and search boxes](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157607075652506/?ref=chrismessina.me), and if we've learned anything from [Google's shockingly austere homepage](http://google.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), it comes down to recognizing that the first step of getting somewhere is expressing some notion of where you want to go: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2822829136/?ref=chrismessina.me)[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2823415600/?ref=chrismessina.me)The problem is that the location field has, [up until recently](http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2008/04/21/a-little-something-awesome-about-firefox-3/?ref=chrismessina.me), been fairly inert and useless. With Spotlight-influenced interfaces creeping into the browser (like [David Watanabe's](http://www.newsfirex.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [recently acquired](http://www.newsfirex.com/blog/?p=203&ref=chrismessina.me) [Inquisitor](http://www.inquisitorx.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) Safari plugin — now powered by [Yahoo! Search BOSS](http://developer.yahoo.com/search/boss/?ref=chrismessina.me) — or the [flyout in Flock](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/75389965/?ref=chrismessina.me) that was [inspired by it](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/137861355/?ref=chrismessina.me)) it's clear that browsers can and should provide more direction and assistance to get people going. Not everyone's got a penchant for remembering URLs (or RFCs) like [Tantek's](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). This kind of predictive interface, however, has only slowly made its way into the location bar, like fish being washed ashore and gradually sprouting legs. Eventually they'll learn to walk and breath normally, but until then, things might look a little awkward. But yes, dear reader, things do change. So you can imagine, having recognized this trend, Google went ahead and [combined the search box and the location field](http://dev.chromium.org/user-experience/omnibox?ref=chrismessina.me) in Chrome and is now pushing the location bar as the starting place, as well as where to do your searching: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2822542797/?ref=chrismessina.me)This change to such a fundamental piece of real estate in the browser has profound consequences on both the [typical use of the browser](http://www.winextra.com/2008/09/02/thanks-google-now-im-going-to-hell/?ref=chrismessina.me) as well as security models that treat the visibility of the URL bar as sacrosanct (read: *phishing*): [](http://dev.chromium.org/user-experience/omnibox?ref=chrismessina.me#TOC-Result-Types)*The URL bar is dead! Long live the URL bar!* While cats like us know intuitively how to use the location bar in combination with URLs to gets us to where to we want to go, that practice is now outmoded. Instead we type *anything* into the "box" and have some likely chance that we're going to end up close to something interesting. *Feeling lucky?* But there's something else behind all this that I think is super important to realize... and that's that our fundamental notions and expectations of privacy on the web have to change or will be changed for us. Either we do without tools that augment our cognitive faculties or we embrace them, and in so doing, shim open a window on our behaviors and our habits so that computers, computing environments and web service agents can become more predictive and responsive to them, and in so doing, serve us better. So it goes. Underlying these changes are new legal concepts and [challenges](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does%5Fgoogle%5Fhave%5Frights%5Fto%5Fall.php?ref=chrismessina.me), [spelled out](http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939%5F109-10030522-2.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=Webware&ref=chrismessina.me) in Google's updated [EULA](http://gears.google.com/chrome/eula.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Privacy Policy](http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/privacy.html?ref=chrismessina.me)... heretofore places where few feared to go, least of all browser manufacturers: > **5\. Use of the Services by you** 5.1 In order to access certain Services, you may be required to provide information about yourself (such as identification or contact details) as part of the registration process for the Service, or as part of your continued use of the Services. You agree that any registration information you give to Google will always be accurate, correct and up to date. . . . **12\. Software updates** 12.1 The Software which you use may automatically download and install updates from time to time from Google. These updates are designed to improve, enhance and further develop the Services and may take the form of bug fixes, enhanced functions, new software modules and completely new versions. You agree to receive such updates (and permit Google to deliver these to you) as part of your use of the Services. It's not that any of this is unexpected or Draconian: it is what it is, if it weren't like this already. Each of us will eventually need to choose a data brokers or two in the future and agree to similar terms and conditions, just like we've done with banks and credit card providers; and if we haven't already, just as we have as we've done in embracing webmail. Hopefully visibility into Chrome's source code will help keep things honest, and also provide the means to excise those features, or to redirect them to brokers or service providers of our choosing, but it's inevitable that effective cloud computing will increasingly require more data from and about us than we've previously felt comfortable giving. And the crazy thing is that a great number of us (yes, including me!) will give it. Willingly. And eagerly. But think one more second about the ramifications (see [Matt Cutts](http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/google-chrome-communication/?ref=chrismessina.me)) of Section 12 up there about Software Updates: by using Chrome, you agree to allow Google to update the browser. That's it: *end of story*. You want to turn it off? Disconnect from the web... in the process, rendering Chrome nothing more than, well, [chrome](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=browser%20chrome&ref=chrismessina.me) (pun intended). Welcome to cloud computing. The future has arrived and is arriving. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Victor Agreda Jr](http://www.superpixel.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 19:22:24 This is a tradeoff, of course. Just like in school you have to provide certain up-to-date information and there's ultimately not a ton of "privacy" because it works against you (isn't a part of school supposed to be the safe sharing and challenging of ideas?). You still own your identity, but it is agreed that you'll share. Kind of like a properly functioning society. The issue around forcing updates is something we're pretty much used to now. I remember how devastating it was when Gmail "upgraded" and broke the one add-on I really needed: label macros (it still doesn't work right, but that's another story). We've been heading down this road for a while... But yes, folks need to tune in to the New Web Order or little by little they are going to wake up in a completely different landscape. **[Arjun Ram](http://www.claimid.com/arjunram?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 19:22:49 It is amazing how google continues to find innovative ways to get people to the search results page where they can sell ads. The search results page is a big cash cow for them! I wouldnt be surprised if they integrate google desktop results into this URL bar! Think of the possibilities .. In one swiping move they would integrate the windows explorer and the browser. More likely that people would use Chrome to search their filesystem. To get an idea of how this would play out just look at the google app on the iphone.. Source code being open is definitely helpful .. Lets see how it plays out .. Google's tentacles are far reaching and it is sad that there is not much competition from Yahoo & Microsoft right now! **[Matt Cutts](http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 20:54:22 Hey Chris, I imagine the Chrome folks thought hard about this topic, but given the number of "average" users out there who might be exposed to malware/security issues otherwise, I personally think it's the right choice. Since Chrome is open-source, it wouldn't be hard to change the browser so it didn't update. **[Chrome: First Impressions | Here in the Hive](http://www.hereinthehive.com/2008/09/03/chrome-first-impressions/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 01:40:53 \[...\] Musings on Chrome, the rebirth of the location bar and privacy in the cloud - Factory Joe (Chris Mes... \[...\] **[Jim Pick](http://jimpick.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 06:41:49 Taking away the option to not have to upgrade is fundamentally a bad thing. It gives Google the power to either unintentionally or intentionally break any plugin or extension developed for this thing. If Google builds a sandbox (like Apple has done with the iPhone), and an enterprising developer figures out a jailbreak -- then Google can shut them down. Good for security, but bad for openness. Ultimately, that's taking power away from the end users. **[Unit Structures – Chrome’s reconfiguration of the web’s geography](http://fstutzman.com/2008/09/03/chromes-reconfiguration-of-the-webs-geography/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 09:04:46 \[...\] Factory City: Musings on Chrome, the rebirth of the location bar and privacy in the cloud \[...\] **Todd** ¡ 2008-09-03 09:46:41 Made this screen shot of Google Chrome/Gears/geolocation API vs. Fire Eagle: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2824453767\_8ae6f06ca0\_o.jpg I am worried that Chrome is a preview of things to come for Android/Mobile AdSense. Let's hope I am wrong. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 10:06:07 @Matt: I actually agree. It's in some ways no different than using McAfee or Symantec -- you're subscribing to their service presumably because you trust them to be aware of threats and to keep you safe. I don't really have a problem with this service from Google. @Jim: I disagree, from a "typical user" perspective. Seriously, most people ignore taskbar notifications that there's new software to update to. Especially if the changes are not to the interface, but instead improve the rendering engine display of webpages and improve performance and compatibility, I think this is going to be something that people actually want. It's not an idea that's palatable today, but when a website redesigns (except in the case of Facebook), we don't have the choice to go back. That's the nature of the web. I know desktop software is arguably and historically different, but I think this is where we need to break with how we've thought about software-as-downloadable in the past and think about it as an extension of a web service. @Todd: I'm excited about that possibility! AdSense already geolocates you based on the servers you're connecting to... with the built-in geolocation API, that means that ANY website could take advantage of knowing where you are, IF you grant it such access. That's huge! **Todd** ¡ 2008-09-03 10:28:49 "I’m excited about that possibility! AdSense already geolocates you..." I am not excited. Google isn't giving us users enough control over how much information to expose ( per the screen shot in my comment above ) when compared to super double plus awesome Fire Eagle. Chrome's user controls for privacy suck, and that's just for a stationary desktop browser...Android may be just as bad. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 11:05:37 @Todd: That interface looks pretty clear to me. Unless you check off "I trust this site", you only have the choice to Deny... what about that don't you like? I can tell you that OpenID's greatest challenge is usability and making the site-to-site flow make sense and feel more customary. How do you feel the Gears UI compares with the current iPhone authorization UI? http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2825038419/ What would you like instead? **[Jim Pick](http://jimpick.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 11:24:11 @Chris: I guess we disagree. But this is a major pet-peeve I have with modern software. I think good software is software that is done. Everybody has been trained like dogs to accept half-done software. There is no need to update software that is complete and correct. Think about the way Donald Knuth handles the version numbering in his software (TeX and Metafont). **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 11:36:14 @Jim: I guess I don't believe that good software, that isn't monolithic, is ever "done". I wish there were such a thing as immaculate software, but that's the nature of technology -- it's always changing. Now, I would offer support to the notion that the web might make folks more lazy, since they can always update their website and everyone immediately has the latest version... so they can push incomplete work (see MobileMe)... but I actually think that in general, this trend will lead to more interesting, more innovative and more responsive companies that don't simply rest their best models on version lock-in (see Microsoft). I also think that the browser has a LONG way to go before it can compete with desktop-based applications... to get there, it's going to need to continually be updated and improved. The web is changing much faster than desktop environments -- ideally this will lead to better software, even if it means that there will be bumps along the way (again, Windows hasn't been without its numerous service packs and patches -- but maybe that's not a great example). **Todd** ¡ 2008-09-03 11:46:34 @Chris Messina I want the same thing I get in Fire Eagle: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3096/2825286776\_e17a6ba760\_o.jpg The Google/Gears/Chrome/geolocation API's "all or nothing" is too black and white. Its also missing FE's "temporary off", "delete trail" and "expiration date". **[Jim Pick](http://jimpick.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 11:55:15 @Chris: You make a good point. Google made this browser so that they would have a better environment for things like Gmail, Google Reader, Google Docs (none of which are open source, BTW). It's all good software, but I fear that control is slipping further and further away from the user. The model is no longer going to be the traditional one of users installing a bunch of small apps that they like. Instead, it's going to be one of users "opting in" to the mega-platform from the company that they trust the most. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 12:53:49 @Todd: Ok, fair point, but as the [Gears documentation](http://code.google.com/p/gears/wiki/GeolocationAPI?ref=chrismessina.me) talks about, their API is just an abstraction already available on many mobile handsets. It's unclear to me who already has access to your location (if you use one of these devices) and whether you're ever prompted to authorize access to that information (say, if you install a third-party app). I also worry about the user experience -- where you might decide to provide only city-level access to your location (playing your cards close to your chest) but then expect great results when you look for directions to a nearby restaurant and you're prompted to type in your location. The problem, I suppose, is that without complicated and time consuming previews of potential functionality, it's hard to know what level of permission to grant... and so you'll either end up granting all access (like many people probably did with Facebook apps) or little to none, defeating the purpose of the API in the first place. Unfortunately to convenience you, you're inconveniencing developers, who would need to work around people having varying degrees of location specificity. It just doesn't seem like that's going to be the best option forward -- although I am still sympathetic to your case. @Jim: I'm not entirely sure about that. I use [Fluid apps](http://fluidapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) to achieve similar types of functionality that's built into Chrome, and I didn't have to sign up to a monolith (though I do use many Google apps). I guess my point is that there is a general trend towards web-based delivery of services... and downloadable software is becoming less relevant as browsers get better. This is especially true if your primary computing device is NOT a PC or laptop (i.e. mobile device/PlayStation, etc). We need our data and our services available wherever WE are... NOT where our computers are. That's a fundamental change that's coming -- and yes, in that case, it does mean picking a monolith of sorts -- even you self-host. **Todd** ¡ 2008-09-03 13:55:47 "...to convenience you, you’re inconveniences developers." Sounds perfect since they get paid $100.00+ an hour to code the service, and I get paid $0.00 to use the service! Adam Smith was right! :P **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 14:00:02 @Todd: ! Ha! Well, I guess if you're willing to pay for the browser, then I guess I'll agree with you! **[Ross Hill](http://www.rosshill.com.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 17:33:29 Search is definitely a big one - so many people already type urls into Google, and keywords into location bars. This will make life easier for them! I also think this is [a major play on web apps](http://www.rosshill.com.au/article/google-shows-their-hand-with-chrome/?ref=chrismessina.me) (of which google has many). **[brelson.com » My Google Chrome experiment](http://www.brelson.com/blog/?p=80&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-04 01:27:32 \[...\] yesterday afternoon I joined the rest of the internet and downloaded Google’s new browser, \[...\] **[FĂŠlicien Breton](http://www.frenchscout.com/die-ie?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-05 11:25:46 @Chris: In this post you make a compelling argument. The tool change make us change our workflow; a phenomenom Joshua Porter coined as [co-evolving](http://bokardo.com/archives/co-evolving/?ref=chrismessina.me). So most of us will "embrace tools that augment our cognitive faculties, and in so doing, shim open a window on our behaviors and our habits". A collateral concern is if this shimming open is to be abused by corporations. It is in the nature of organizations to push their advantage. "Everything" you do on the internet would go through Apple, Microsoft or Google. I propose that it is better if we keep a foundation (Mozilla) as important player. Google could selectively avoid proposing Chrome to the people landing on their homepage -- depending on their current browser. This is very easy to do. ([Here is an example in PHP](http://www.frenchscout.com/die-ie?ref=chrismessina.me).) They don't. @Victor: I understand that your mention of a New Order hints on the political. Sorry if I miss some language subtleties. So i'll respond in kind. Accepting continuous updates is a choice. You are not compelled to move in the direction you are given. My usual browser is the latest Firefox version but this comment is being posted on [Epiphany](http://www.gnome.org/projects/epiphany/?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- a browser that is switching from Gecko to Webkit. A better answer to you is the [1st comment from Jim Pick](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/09/02/musings-on-chrome-the-rebirth-of-the-location-bar-and-privacy-in-the-cloud/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-100152). **[FĂŠlicien Breton](http://www.frenchscout.com/die-ie?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-05 11:27:34 @Matt: Chromium is open source. Where is the source of Chrome? **[links for 2008-09-07 « Breyten’s Dev Blog](http://breyten.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/links-for-2008-09-07/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-07 13:36:49 \[...\] Musings on Chrome, the rebirth of the location bar and privacy in the cloud (tags: privacy google chrome dataownerschip databrokering databanks vrm vendorrelationshipmanagement chrismessina factoryjoe cloudcomputing webservices) \[...\] **[Privacy Issues « jasperger](http://jasperger.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/privacy-issues/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-07 15:16:34 \[...\] again with Google’s Chrome this seems to be the issue. But as Chris Messina \[...\] **[Analysis of Chrome « Sideways8](http://sideways8.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/chrome%5Fanalysis/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-17 07:05:43 \[...\] A few more points he expands in the original and subsequent post: \[...\] **aryan.charismatic1@gmail.com** ¡ 2008-10-07 03:37:58 Absolutely rocks in every way. Google has once again proven that it has what is needed to deliver great products. it’s a decent browser…download time may be a dash slower than other browsers but the app load time, smooth rendering, space utilization etc are great. **[Other Matt](http://mattsly.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-12-08 20:43:26 While I think the combo URL/search box constitutes novel UI...I think it stinks as an implementation of the opensearch.org specification when compared to Firefox or IE (let's not even talk about lame Safari that eschews it altogether). Here's why: 1) There is no way to switch search engines on-the-fly once you've typed a query 2) Editing your search engines (right-click on the URL/search box field, "Edit Search Engines"?) is hard to find 3) If you have figured out #2 for how to add a non-Google search engine, the trick of invoking your non-default by typing "Bing query term" just won't work for my mom. Or brother even. It's command-liney. Cool for geeks, but that's it. 4) (related) there's no visual way of seeing which search engines you can choose from when typing a query It's hard not to draw this up into a conspiracy theory: Google makes itself the default search engine, but makes it really hard to switch to another search provider, all the while "supporting" OpenSearch. ### Google Chrome and the future of browsers URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/google-chrome-and-the-future-of-browsers/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:49.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2819995451/?ref=chrismessina.me)[News](http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2008-09-01-n47.html?ref=chrismessina.me) came today [confirming](http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/fresh-take-on-browser.html?ref=chrismessina.me) Google's plans for [Chrome](http://www.google.com/chrome?ref=chrismessina.me), its own open source browser based on [Webkit](http://webkit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). This is [big news](http://www.techmeme.com/080901/p44?ref=chrismessina.me#a080901p44). As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't get much bigger than this, at least in my little shed on the internet. I've been struggling to come to grips with my thoughts on this since I first heard about this this morning over Twitter (thanks [@rww](http://tinyurl.com/568lnv?ref=chrismessina.me) [@Carnage4Life](http://twitter.com/Carnage4Life/statuses/905901769?ref=chrismessina.me) and [@furrier](http://twitter.com/Furrier/statuses/905942123?ref=chrismessina.me)). Once I found out that it was based on Webkit, the pieces all fell into place (or perhaps the puzzle that's been under construction for the past year or so became clearer). [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2819060784/?ref=chrismessina.me)Last May [I ranted for a good 45 minutes](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/05/10/thoughts-on-mozilla/?ref=chrismessina.me) or so about the state of Mozilla and Firefox and my concerns for its future. It's curious to look back and consider my fears about Adobe Air and Silverlight; it's more curious to think about what Google Chrome might mean now that it's been confirmed and that those frameworks have little to offer in the way of standards for the open web. I read announcement as the [kid gloves coming off](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/technology/02google.html?%5Fr=1&oref=slogin&ref=chrismessina.me). I just can't read this any other way than to think that Google's finally fed up waiting around for Firefox to get their act together, fix their performance issues in serious ways, provide tangible and near-term vision and make good on their ultimate promise and value-proposition. Sure, [Google re-upped their deal with Firefox](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/08/28/mozilla-extends-lucrative-deal-with-google-for-3-years/?ref=chrismessina.me), but why wouldn't they? If this really is a [battle against Microsoft](http://kara.allthingsd.com/20080901/google-ignites-a-new-browser-war-with-microsoft-by-unveiling-one-of-its-own/?ref=chrismessina.me), Google can continue to use Firefox as its proxy against the entrenched behemoth. Why not? [Mozilla's lack of concern](http://gigaom.com/2008/09/01/mozilla-not-worried-about-google-browser/?ref=chrismessina.me) worries me greatly; if they knew about it, what did they do about it? Although [Weave](http://labs.mozilla.com/projects/weave/?ref=chrismessina.me) has potential, Google has had [Google Browser Sync](http://www.google.com/tools/firefox/browsersync/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me) [for ages](http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/get-in-sync.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (announced, to wit, by Chrome's product manager Brian Rakowski). [Aza Raskin](http://azarask.in/blog?ref=chrismessina.me) might be doing very curious and [esoteric](http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-ubiquity/?ref=chrismessina.me) [experiments](http://labs.mozilla.com/projects/concept-series/?ref=chrismessina.me) on [Labs](http://labs.mozilla.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), but [how does this demonstrate](http://john.jubjubs.net/2008/09/01/thoughts-on-chrome-more/?ref=chrismessina.me) a wider, clearer, focused vision? Or is that the point? Therein lies the tragedy: Google is a well-oiled, well-heeled machine. Mozilla, in contrast, is not (and probably never will be). The Webkit team, as a rhizomatic offshoot from Apple, has a similar development pedigree and has consistently produced a high quality — [now cross-platform](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/08/09/safari-on-windows/?ref=chrismessina.me) — open source project, nary engaging in polemics or politics. They let the results speak for themselves. They keep their eyes on the ball. Ultimately this has everything to do with people; with leadership, execution and vision. When Mozilla [lost](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/ben/archives/007366.html?ref=chrismessina.me) [Ben Goodger](http://www.bengoodger.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) I think the damage went deeper than was known or understood. Then [Blake Ross](http://www.blakeross.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Joe Hewitt](http://www.joehewitt.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) went over to Facebook, where they're probably in the bowels of the organization, doing stuff with FBML and the like, bringing Parakeet into existence (they've [recently been joined](http://blog.mozilla.com/schrep/2008/07/28/new-adventures/?ref=chrismessina.me) by [Mike Schroepfer](http://blog.mozilla.com/schrep/?ref=chrismessina.me), previously VP of Engineering at Mozilla). [Brad Neuberg](http://codinginparadise.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) [joined Google](http://codinginparadise.org/weblog/2007/11/advocating-for-web-and-developers.html?ref=chrismessina.me) to take [Dojo Offline](http://dojotoolkit.org/offline?ref=chrismessina.me) [forward](http://www.sitepen.com/blog/2007/05/30/google-gears-dojo-offline-and-sitepen/?ref=chrismessina.me) in the Gears project (along with efforts from [Dylan Schiemann](http://dylanschiemann.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Alex Russell](http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)). And the list goes on. Start poking around the names in the [Google Chrome comic book](http://books.google.com/books?id=8UsqHohwwVYC&printsec=frontcover&ref=chrismessina.me#PPA1,M1) and the names are there. [Scott McCloud's drawings](http://www.scottmccloud.com/googlechrome/?ref=chrismessina.me) aren't just a useful pictorial explanation of what to expect in Chrome; it's practically a declaration of independence from the yesteryear traditions of browser design of the past 10 years, going all the way back to Netscape's heyday when the notion of the web was a vast collection of *interlinked documents*. With Chrome, the web starts to look more like a nodal grid of documents, with *cloud applications* running on momentary instances, being run directly and indirectly by *people* and their agents. This is the browser *caught up*. [We get Gears baked in](http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/2008/09/the-importance-of-chrome/?ref=chrismessina.me) (note the lack of "Google" prefix — it's now simply "of the web") and if you've read the fine-print closely, you already know that this means that Chrome will be a [*self-updating*](http://code.google.com/apis/gears/upcoming/history.html?ref=chrismessina.me)*, self-healing browser*. This means that the web will rev at the speed of the frameworks and the specifications, and will no longer be tied to the monopoly player's broken rendering engine. And on top of Gears, we're starting to see the light of the site-specific browser revolution and the [maturing of the web as an application platform](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/17/did-the-web-fail-the-iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me), something [Todd Ditchendorf](http://www.ditchnet.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), with his [Fluid](http://fluidapp.com/blog?ref=chrismessina.me) project, [knows something about](http://citizengarden.com/2008/03/23/episode-6-floating-into-the-cloud/?ref=chrismessina.me) (also based on Webkit -- [*all your base*](http://twitter.com/iTod/statuses/906235114?ref=chrismessina.me), etc): [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2819104798/?ref=chrismessina.me)In spite of its [lofty rhetoric](http://www.mozilla.org/about/manifesto?ref=chrismessina.me) in support of a free Internet, Chrome isn't Mozilla's pièce de rĂŠsistance. Turns out that it's going to be [Apple and Google](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/19/in-google-apple-partnership-jobs-gets-the-bill-gates-he-always-wanted/?ref=chrismessina.me) who will usher in the future of browsers, and who will get to determine just what that future of browsers are going to look like: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2819042686/?ref=chrismessina.me)To put it mildly, things just got a whole lot more exciting. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Google + Web Browser = Chrome as the missing part of the Google User Experience - Fast.Fwd.Innov@tion](http://www.fastfwdinnovation.com/2008/09/02/digital-news/google-web-browser-chrome-as-the-missing-part-of-the-google-user-experience/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 00:49:22 \[...\] For people interested in tech side of Chrome: FactoryJoe opinion \[...\] **[Google Chrome | Here in the Hive](http://www.hereinthehive.com/2008/09/02/google-chrome/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 01:40:54 \[...\] far more detail and more in-depth analysis, I recommend you read Chris Messina’s post (Factory Joe), Mashable and of course Google’s own \[...\] **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 05:21:11 Chrome scares me a bit. If we're building such unholy crap that each tab needs its own process, we're doing something very wrong with the web. I'm a fan of the whole cloud use-anywhere technology, but if you have to write an OS-like browser to make your apps work, you need to either make you code lighter, or just write a desktop app... **[Todd](http://twitter.com/ronin691?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 05:48:50 Wasn't mentioned above, and I am totally speculating, but I think Chrome is being released as a response to IE8 being able to block AdSense ads: "The Internet Explorer 8 browser’s InPrivate setting lets users access websites without disclosing their browsing habits, which websites need to be able to do to deliver targeted advertising. This is a business Google has just moved into through its acquisition of DoubleClick." http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1dc6fac0-7462-11dd-bc91-0000779fd18c.html ...why do I get the feeling that IE will block AdSense ads but NOT Microsoft's? Hmmmmmm... **[Google Chrome could be big](http://comments.deasil.com/2008/09/02/google-chrome-could-be-big/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 06:38:09 \[...\] means to walk it. More than any recent launch I believe they are. It’s got its skeptics and its lovers. Even if as a browser it never achieves significant market share, I hope its impact as a \[...\] **[Google Chrome Roundup](http://www.techlifeweb.com/2008/09/02/google-chrome-roundup/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 07:44:00 \[...\] Chris Messina has some really interesting thoughts. I’d go as far as saying his post is a must-read. He says: I read announcement as the kid gloves coming off. I just can’t read this any other way than to think that Google’s finally fed up waiting around for Firefox to get their act together, fix their performance issues in serious ways, provide tangible and near-term vision and make good on their ultimate promise and value-proposition. \[...\] **[AndrĂŠ LuĂ­s](http://andr3.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 09:22:24 Chris, good write up. Indeed, it might just be Google and Apple driving the web forward but ultimately, it will be the users who have the last word. Like Gears, if the browser does not get enough market share, it will be pointless. I, however, am hoping that the name Google behind such a browser will do something that Mozilla could not. Overcome IE domain in the domestic browser area. Imagine this... \*closes eyes\* a world in which the browser with bigger market share is powered by webkit! \*opens eyes\* That'd be incredible, speaking as a webdeveloper. :) Exciting indeed, Chris... **[http://www.afpr.com/](http://www.afpr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 09:24:25 Chrome will mean different things depending on who/what you are. The one thing it does mean to everyone though is that the Internet is the operating system, and the clouds are moving closer to earh. You are Apple; This means that if it were not enough of a conflict of interest (Iphone VS Google's Android) to have Google CEO Eric Schmidt sit on your board - It is now. Look for Schmidt to resign sometime in the next six months. If you are Microsoft; This means that if you ever considered making Internet Explorer open source in the past, now is the time... You can not afford to wait, not even another minute. Expect Microsoft to make Vaporware like noise over the next few months about cloud widgets to give IE closer ties to cloud based initiatives. If you are Yahoo; you need to buy Mozilla. If you are Firefox; Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer...yes continue with your Google revenue deal, but learn how to monetize your Browser outside of a paid search deal. Leverage your large user base to form "spin-off" type "power of the crowd" businesses. Note to Firefox, hey you guys ARE a social network...you just haven't figured that out yet. If you are Sun; Realize that Java is even less relevant every day. First we kicked you out of client side computing because you were a resource hog. Realize that Java will now continue to be less and less relevant on the Server. What a waste of a good company... McNealy must have got hit in the head with one to many hockey pucks. If you are a social network; "social networks" would follow along with users in the browser. Truth be told, we thought it would be Facebook, or even more likely Firefox that would lead in this initiative. So if you are a social network, you need to know now Chrome is the first step in a series of moves that will make it unnecessary for your peeeps to ever visit your site (directly) again. If you are an application developer; Life used to be simple, eh? You knew that you should be developing applications for Windows, because that is where the 100's of millions of users were. Fast forward, and now you need to choose what platforms to support, and when. Of course it makes sense to develop for Windows still, but Apple now has a mass of millions of Mac OSx users, and if it a browser based app, write once for Safari, and it should work without much adaptation on the Iphone. There are over a billion cell phones in use world wide, however every phone requires writing to separately (yes even all those different flavors of Java are different phone to phone. Suddenly with Android coming, and a matching desktop browser you need to be here. Lastly if you are a consumer; There is always a bottleneck somewhere ... Think back 5-10 years ago, before what we now refer to broadband... Dial up was painffulllllyy slow, and when you tried to browse, the bottleneck was in your "last mile" connectivity. Once you got broadband, the lag time in reaching a site was likely in your PC (not enough ram, slow processor, etc). Before either of those issues though it was the software that was not "smart" enough to keep up with the ever faster CPU's being created. Look for Chrome to optimize all these new "cloud" based application initiatives like Google Gears, etc. This is just another nail in the coffin for desktop based computing. In 10 years, likely 90%+ of your applications will reside somewhere outside of your home or workplace - but certainly not on your desktop. www.twitter.com/A\_F **jon bradford** ¡ 2008-09-02 09:28:55 Agreed Agreed Agreed Throughout the comic and the announcement I get a very strong sense of frustration in the developement of other browsers. Without naming them they clearly have IE and FF in their sights. They may not be aiming for market share but they are (through competition) trying to raise the bar on browser standards - they influence on FF is obviously very limited. This announcement says as much about Google as it does about Mozilla. **hectorpal** ¡ 2008-09-02 09:29:25 Stephen, that sounds like the complaints about Linux being a monolitic kernel, instead of microkernel. I think a process per tab is just going to work. It is easy to mantain, and you can let some job go to shared libs. Even worst, multi-cores are going to be at desktop. I know, I know... they are just trying to sell more chips with all the multi-core hype, but they are going to be there. The question is, what's the easiest way to get stability, usability, etc. **[Tom](http://mbilf.com/2008/09/on-google-chrome/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 09:29:40 You got it dead on, previous commenter: Google Chrome will not support user scripts/greasemonkey, or extensions (like adblock). Google Chrome: If you want the web to look like it does in Safari (which nobody tests on it seems) and have all the ads which you forgot existed when using Firefox. But hey, now the futurists will come out of the woodwork and claim this will 'revolutionize' your 'online life' ([e.g.](http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6z3tf/on%5Fgoogle%5Fchrome%5Fthe%5Fv8%5Fjavascript%5Fengine%5Fand/c059gb0?ref=chrismessina.me)) even though it actually removes PREVIOUS revolutions, like greasemonkey and adblock. It used to be called "remixing the web", but now it'll be "the web, it supposedly doesn't crash! we promise!". I think that some of the ideas are interesting, but most (if not all) already existed as Mozilla bugs. For example, one thread per tab is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show\_bug.cgi?id=40848, but process per tab is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show\_bug.cgi?id=452272\. I will not be surprised when people incorrectly claim that already-existing plans for Mozilla 2 (Firefox 4) are "inspired" by Google Chrome. **[Khurt Williams](http://khurt.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 09:30:56 @Todd: Safari already supports a "private browsing" mode. I doubt this is a response to IE8. **[Daniel Mettler](http://mettlerd.openid.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 09:58:43 Nice post, Chris. I wouldn’t be surprised if all those people who are bashing Chrome even before having seen and tested it had no clue about computer science at all. I for one have and I can tell that from a technological point of view, Chrome makes a LOT of sense. From a business point of view (strategic positioning) it also makes a lot of sense - for Google - less so for end-users, but it doesn’t hurt either (more choices, OSS browser). I agree that this move will probably have a huge impact on future developments in the web and OS areas. Probably a bigger impact than the masses currently realize. Google Chrome is definitely not “just another browser”, it’s an assembly of several well-known concepts that together make a whole new browser concept which will enable a better, seamless user experience and new kinds of very powerful applications. I think also Apple/Safari will need to adapt to Chrome’s “WebOS” concept (as it looks like they only share the WebKit with Chrome), though the Safari camp doesn’t seem to be in the cross hairs and tends to be much more agile than IE/Microsoft. Interesting times coming up! Looking forward to it :) See my blog post for some further thoughts: http://www.numlock.ch/news/it/some-techie-notes-about-google-chrome/ **[Ryan Stewart - Rich Internet Application Mountaineer » Blog Archive » Thinking about Google Chrome from a Flash/AIR Perspective](http://blog.digitalbackcountry.com/?p=1620&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 11:05:17 \[...\] been a lot of good talk about Google Chrome and what it means for the web. I actually like Chris Messina’s take a lot partly because he’s so enthusiastic, but also because he’s generally right. \[...\] **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 11:49:04 @hectorpal I'm not saying it won't work - I'm saying that catering to bloated webapps will encourage people to build more of them. **[FĂŠlicien Breton](http://www.frenchscout.com/die-ie?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 12:04:51 I am scared too. Indeed it's good that Chrome uses Webkit and that the user experience will improve. Yet the society will be facing a problem of duopoly between Microsoft and Google. Google and Mozilla are partners. Google is still moving forward to controlling search engines and web platforms. By the time it will be prosecuted by antitrust measures it will be too late. You can contribute as I do to diminish IE market share while keeping Firefox market share by [pushing IE users to switch to Firefox](http://www.frenchscout.com/die-ie?ref=chrismessina.me). **[David White](http://insomnic.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 13:23:20 Good writeup. I like that you spoke about the happenings behind the scenes with the companies involved and not just the techie side of things. For regular users (non-techies), I think Chrome will be excellent. Many of the regular users I work with have finally switched to Firefox only recently but they don't do anything with add-ons (let alone greasemonkey). They aren't as concerned about AdBlocking, page specific scripts or even under the hood tweaking. What they seem to care about most is an intuitive interface and quick web browsing. I think Chrome will provide this with Google's experience and Webkit's rendering. At the very least, another well backed browser pushing for standards can only be good for eveyone else. Plus the fact that Chrome and V8 are open source is just plain icing on the cake for me. **[New Browser: Google Chrome « Insomnic Dreams](http://insomnic.wordpress.com/2008/09/01/new-browser-google-chrome/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 13:39:48 \[...\] Downloadsquad’s “Why Google Chrome Really Matters” BBC News First Impressions FactoryJoe’s Rundown on Chrome and the Future of Browsers Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Google still has a sense of humorAnother web \[...\] **[poso.dk - om portable sociale netvĂŚrk » Google Chrome and the future of browsers | af Chris Messina](http://www.poso.dk/2008/09/02/google-chrome-and-the-future-of-browsers-af-chris-messina/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 14:12:46 \[...\] Google Chrome and the future of browsers | af Chris Messina - Et godt writeup omkring Google Chrome og dens betydning for browsermarkedet \[...\] **[Jim Pick](http://jimpick.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 14:24:06 More browsers to choose from is a good thing. We're moving away from a mono-culture -- which means Microsoft is going to have to play nice... Firefox really isn't all that broken. For most users, it's pretty solid. The power users with lots of add-ons probably feel the most pain from instability, but that's a tiny piece of the overall market. They can take their time fixing it up. A little competition is good. In the end, I imagine that Mozilla is going to be the project that pulls in contributions from the community, whereas Chrome is going to be more-or-less whatever Google dishes out. **[deep.edition » Kroma dig lagom](http://deepedition.com/2008/09/02/kroma-dig-lagom/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 14:35:58 \[...\] som mĂĽnga är Ăśverraskande positiva. En intressant postning innan det hela släpptes är den här, som ocksĂĽ fĂśljdes av en intensiv diskussion här. Recensionerna bĂśrjar rulla in, vissa har \[...\] **[Kobe](http://topnotchvids.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 15:11:58 Using it right now! **[Turulcsirip - Hector Palacios](http://turulcsirip.hu/perma/907390998?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 15:15:57 \[...\] @JessicaFillol mirad esto http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/09/01/google-chrome-and-the-future-of-browsers/ ÂŤ el?z? | kĂśvetkez? Âť Hector Palacios — 2008\. 09\. 03\. \[...\] **[WinExtra - Thanks Google Now I’m Going To Hell](http://www.winextra.com/2008/09/02/thanks-google-now-im-going-to-hell/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 15:29:55 \[...\] Chris Messina said today in response to Chrome making its debut - “To put it mildly, things just got a whole lot more \[...\] **JulesLt** ¡ 2008-09-02 15:34:09 Lack of add-ons/scripts/ad-block/GreaseMonkey - well that keeps Firefox's USP for the tiny number of users who care about that type of thing. I don't see it holding back Chrome for the average user. I also think that mass use of ad-blocking would have underisable side-effects (ads that appeared to be part of the page contents) as sites sought a way to make money. Safari 4 already supports the ability to create Fluid style application specific browsers, running as a separate process. I don't mean that in the 'Safari already does it' way (Fluid and AIR did it earlier) but that this shows signs of becoming a standard feature. http://theunixgeek.blogspot.com/2008/06/safari-4-review.html I don't see an Apple/Google conflict myself - Apple and Google continue to partner on more things (Maps, YouTube, search, WebKit) as much as they compete (.Mac vs Google apps, iPhone/Android). If the idea is that Chrome is an application runtime that threatens the native OS, the rise of web apps is something that everyone sees coming. It is both threat and opportunity. If it's not Google, it will be Microsoft or Yahoo - better to come from a partner than an enemy. Especially one who still locks non-IE browsers out from the Ajax version of Exchange webmail. Note that Apple have also been proactive in implementing HTML 5 and CSS animation features into WebKit that make developing 'desktop-like' applications easier, together with backing SproutCore. That tells me they know which way the wind blows. They also know it's at least a decade before browser apps will be able to touch the likes of iDVD, Final Cut Studio, or Garageband. HTML 5 gives us a video tag. Apps like those will need pretty much the full Quicktime API, and I can see that one taking a long time to become standardised (implementing it probably be easier). A final thought - to really start a revolution, we need more choice that JavaScript. On .NET or the JVM I have language choice. On Cocoa I can think of at least 4 languages I can use in preference to Obj-C. On the server - the choice is huge. The browser runtime is the only one that dictates a choice on the developer, and using a pre-compiler like GWT or SproutCore does not strike me as the right long term answer. **[Our review: Chrome More Than Capable of Taking on IE and Firefox » VentureBeat](http://venturebeat.com/2008/09/02/our-review-chrome-more-than-capable-of-taking-on-ie-and-firefox/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 18:29:01 \[...\] As developer Chris Messina summed up the news: \[...\] **[Google Chrome - Who Says What… | Nethackz.com](http://nethackz.com/google-chrome-who-says-what/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 19:03:31 \[...\] Google Chrome and The Future Of Browsers \[...\] **[Thoughts on Google Chrome at MasterMaq’s Blog](http://blog.mastermaq.ca/2008/09/02/thoughts-on-google-chrome/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 19:04:13 \[...\] Google Chrome and the future of browsers by Chris Messina \[...\] **[Calvin Spealman](http://techblog.ironfroggy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 19:45:55 Google actually has discontinued Google Browser Sync for some time now. **Farhan** ¡ 2008-09-02 20:01:37 Its very interesting that Google has decided to take on a project like this. They obviously have such an interest in how people access the web, it was only a matter of time before they took things into their own hands. It is going to be very interesting to see how this pans out. Google Chrome browser Screenshots http://www.tonesall.com/computers-internet/google-chrome-screenshots.html **[Lloyd Budd](http://lloydbudd.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 08:04:20 Calvin Spealman, Google Browser Sync pretty much lives on as part of the Google Toolbar **[Unit Structures – Chrome’s reconfiguration of the web’s geography](http://fstutzman.com/2008/09/03/chromes-reconfiguration-of-the-webs-geography/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 09:02:51 \[...\] Factory City: Google Chrome and the future of browsers \[...\] **[Google Chrome’s Greatest Challenge? Open Source Development and Support - A Fool's Wisdom](http://foolswisdom.com/google-chromes-greatest-challenge-open-source-development-and-support/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 10:56:13 \[...\] good friend Chris Messina wrote a very interesting article, which in many ways comes down to a large, influential part of the \[...\] **[Sachendra Yadav](http://sachendra.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-04 00:51:50 @AFPR Amazing breakup for all stakeholders Additionally I would say that Microsoft needs to analyze the impact on Windows, not just IE. This is no longer about browser but about the an entire marketplace spread between desktop, mobile and web. Google Chrome has faster JavaScript VM, better memory management, better Windows UI rendering, faster text layout and rendering, and intelligent page navigation in comparison to other more widely adopted browsers. When combined with Google Gears technology, this is as close as you can get to replicating the desktop experience with web applications More details on my blog http://sachendra.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/googles-chrome-is-aimed-at-windows-not-ie/ **Pet Human** ¡ 2008-09-04 13:47:10 ha.. ha... funny how you included the cartoons in the article. there are some funny mock cartoons already going around making its way around the web. btw, this post was made using Google Chrome. http://www.surfchrome.com/index.php/gallery/chrometoon-googleville-satire/59-initial-mock-google-cartoons-emerge **[Chrome and the quest for ubiquity | brants](http://www.manuscrypts.com/brants/?p=289&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-04 20:40:54 \[...\] the middle of the post, and i completed it in Chrome!! It raises some interesting questions on the future of browsing, but for now, Google can pat itself on its back because we hear only good things, \[...\] **[WebNotes » Blog Archive » Chrome : le recueil des avis](http://webnotes.fr/78/chrome-le-recueil-des-avis/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-04 23:15:16 \[...\] Chris Messina (aka FactoryJoe): I just can’t read this any other way than to think that Google’s finally fed up waiting around for Firefox to get their act together, fix their performance issues in serious ways, provide tangible and near-term vision and make good on their ultimate promise and value-proposition. \[...\] **[FĂŠlicien Breton](http://www.frenchscout.com/die-ie?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-05 04:21:12 @Daniel Mettler Safari shares the WebKit not only with Chrome. [Konqueror](http://www.konqueror.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) (the seventh most used browser) already uses this engine. [Epiphany](http://www.gnome.org/projects/epiphany/?ref=chrismessina.me) is switching from Gecko to Webkit. [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List%5Fof%5Fweb%5Fbrowsers?ref=chrismessina.me#KHTML%5Fand%5FWebKit-based%5Fbrowsers) is a longer list. You can expect it to grow with the adoption of mobile browsing. So Webkit has a bright future on all platforms but Windows... **[“Self-healing browser” | ckunte.com](http://ckunte.com/archives/self-healing-browser?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-05 13:53:16 \[...\] Chris Messina: “\[A\]nd if you’ve read the fine-print closely, you already know that this means that Chrome will be a self-updating, self-healing browser. This means that the web will rev at the speed of the frameworks and the specifications, and will no longer be tied to the monopoly player’s broken rendering engine.” \[...\] **[Daniel Mettler](http://mettlerd.openid.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-05 14:43:09 @FĂŠlicien Breton: I know the history of WebKit. I guess I should have phrased it differently as I meant it the other way round, i.e. that AFAIK Chrome and Safari have the WebKit in common only (which is a lot already, but not everything that makes Chrome). All in all, chances are that Safari, Firefox, Konqueror, Epiphany, IE etc. will catch-up with Chrome's concepts regarding better stability and speed, though rather in an evolutionary than revolutionary way. That is, they'll have to, in order to not vanish. We probably all agree that webapps will play a major role in the forseeable future of the web, not just content. Not even Microsoft is powerful enough to stop this tendency. **[Recent Links on Ma.gnolia at Fast Wonder Blog: Consulting, Online Communities, and Social Media](http://fastwonderblog.com/2008/09/06/recent-links-on-magnolia-33/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-05 22:58:44 \[...\] Google Chrome and the future of browsers | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Chrome just Changed the Game — Oddly Zen](http://oddlyzen.com/2008/09/07/chrome-just-changed-the-game/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-07 14:16:00 \[...\] Microsoft is no doubt worried, shit-in-their-pants worried. Suddenly the game is not Silverlight vs. Flash. It’s IE vs. Javascript. At least Chrome might spur a lazy industry into conforming to standards and treating web applications as first-class citizens. Our web apps will access our systems like desktop applications. We get Gears baked in (note the lack of “Google” prefix — it’s now simply “of the web”) and if you’ve read the fine-print closely, you already know that this means that Chrome will be a self-updating, self-healing browser. This means that the web will rev at the speed of the frameworks and the specifications, and will no longer be tied to the monopoly player’s broken rendering engine. \~Chris Messina \[...\] **[Interesting stuff from around the web 2008-09-08 « Derivadow.com](http://derivadow.com/2008/09/08/interesting-stuff-from-around-the-web-2008-09-08/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-08 10:52:22 \[...\] Google Chrome and the future of browsers \[FactoryCity\] I read announcement as the kid gloves coming off. I just can’t read this any other way than to think that Google’s finally fed up waiting around for Firefox to get their act together, fix their performance issues in serious ways, provide tangible and near-term vision and make good on their ultimate promise and value-proposition. \[...\] **katy** ¡ 2008-09-16 08:05:37 Chrome's performance measurements on our product (http://www.taskwriter.com) makes it obvious that Chrome has the quality of speed: it's a lil bit faster then Firefox 3.0 and 6 times faster than IE. See the graphs here:http://www.taskwriter.com/blog/how-good-chrome-really-is **[Analysis of Chrome « Sideways8](http://sideways8.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/chrome%5Fanalysis/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-17 07:04:25 \[...\] Flock - both browser companies - has a great post about how Chrome came to be and what it means (post is here). Chrome is the future of browsers. It’s one that embraces web applications and has \[...\] **[Life As An Evangelist » Thinking about Google Chrome from a Flash/AIR Perspective](http://lifeasanevangelist.com/2008/09/22/thinking-about-google-chrome-from-a-flashair-perspective/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-22 07:17:05 \[...\] been a lot of good talk about Google Chrome and what it means for the web. I actually like Chris Messina’s take a lot partly because he’s so enthusiastic, but also because he’s generally right. \[...\] **[Web Marketing](http://www.netage.co.za/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-13 05:13:49 Well Google Chrome has brough new standards to browsers, the V8 engine and tabs "sandbox" concepts are brilliant. Let's wait and see what more will it bring as further development proceeds. **[Mario Fernandez](http://boricuaspacepr.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-02-16 19:56:36 I say that Google Chrome is excellent for speed, performance, and security. I was very impressed with Google Chrome and enjoy using it, however I just had to switch to Apple Safari. Both are based on Webkit and I believe that Webkit is the best rendering engine for any web browser. Apple does have it’s reputation for the iPhone being still the most popular and unmatched mobile device. Apple Safari, even though Firefox took control, has been gaining more market share then ever and Google Chrome as well. My point is, Apple Safari should be the king of all web browsers when it comes to ease of use, performance, and speed. Google Chrome definitely takes over speed, however when it comes to their UI and structure of their web browser, Safari takes the lead. You may read my blog post here about my opinion with Google Chrome and Apple Safari: http://www.boricuaspacepr.net/profiles/blogs/google-chrome-might-actually **kirao** ¡ 2009-04-20 08:48:43 Chrome's Real opponent will be OPERA. Its one of the fastest and powerful browser (yet bit-infamaous) with almost all the features as Firefox and IE. ### Bookmarks for August 04 to August 18 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-august-04-to-august-18/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:47.000Z A bi-weekly collection of linky goodness. #### [workalicious: citizenspace - a coworking coop](http://www.workalicious.org/2008/08/citizenspace--.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![workalicious: citizenspace - a coworking coop](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/chixakustust/thumbnail/160) the modern workplace, its furniture, implements, and a bit of its culture Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [citizen space](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/citizen%20space?ref=chrismessina.me), [coworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/coworking?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [WordPress Plugin: I Am Here ÂŤ Code ÂŤ klauskomenda.com](http://www.klauskomenda.com/code/wordpress-plugin-i-am-here/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![WordPress Plugin: I Am Here ÂŤ Code ÂŤ klauskomenda.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/zehedusho/thumbnail/160) I Am Here is a WordPress plugin that uses Fire Eagle, Yahoo! Maps API, Google Weather API, GeoNames and, optionally, World Time Engine to display information about your current location in a widget in the sidebar. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [wordpress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me), [fire eagle](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fire%20eagle?ref=chrismessina.me), [location](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/location?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Why Blogs Need To Be Social - GigaOM](http://gigaom.com/2008/08/14/why-blogs-need-to-be-social/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Why Blogs Need To Be Social - GigaOM](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/gethacash/thumbnail/160) "Earlier this week, San Francisco-based web publishing software company Six Apart released the newest version of its flagship product, Moveable Type, and pushed the blogging community into taking the first step toward a very social future." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [diso](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/diso?ref=chrismessina.me), [movable type](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/movable%20type?ref=chrismessina.me), [wordpress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me), [blogging](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/blogging?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Ma.gnolia.org](http://ma.gnolia.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Ma.gnolia.org](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/gichetefe/thumbnail/160) Magnolia's going Open Source. Soon you'll be able to host and run your own instance of the social bookmarking service. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [magnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/magnolia?ref=chrismessina.me), [opensource](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/opensource?ref=chrismessina.me), [bookmarking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bookmarking?ref=chrismessina.me), [social](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/social?ref=chrismessina.me), [m2](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/m2?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Bookmarks for July 21 to August 04 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-july-21-to-august-04/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:48.000Z A bi-weekly collection of linky goodness. #### [XCRI: eXchanging Course-Related Information](http://xcri.org/Welcome.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![XCRI: eXchanging Course-Related Information](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/tumodoyo/thumbnail/160) XCRI is a JISC-funded, UK-oriented project to establish a specification to support the eXchange of Course-Related Information. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [courseware](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/courseware?ref=chrismessina.me), [specification](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/specification?ref=chrismessina.me), [open data](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/open%20data?ref=chrismessina.me), [education](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/education?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Eco Friend](http://ecofriend.us/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Eco Friend](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/voscaza/thumbnail/160) Welcome to EcoFriend.us. We believe there's a way to both save money and be environmentally friendly at the same time! Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [environment](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/environment?ref=chrismessina.me), [shopping](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/shopping?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### So open it hurts URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/so-open-it-hurts/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:02.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2714843904/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Bernice Yeung's](http://www.berniceyeung.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) character piece ("[So Open it Hurts](http://www.sanfranmag.com/story/so-open-it-hurts?ref=chrismessina.me)") about my relationship with [Tara](http://www.horsepigcow.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is now available online (feels somewhat awkward using her full name, as she used mine in [her post on the story](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2008/07/28/living-life-online-pitfalls-and-perks/?ref=chrismessina.me), so I'll take liberties and [presume some familiarity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2005/12/06/my-four-readers/?ref=chrismessina.me) on the part of you, my dear reader). On the one hand, I feel a bit embarrassed and reluctant having had the entrails of our relationship splayed out over [15 digital pages](http://www.sanfranmag.com/story/so-open-it-hurts?ref=chrismessina.me) or 13 print pages starting on page 57 of this month's [San Francisco Magazine](http://www.sanfranmag.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)(which I recommend, given [modern reading habits](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/books/27reading.html?ex=1374897600&en=81a364206914f90a&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&ref=chrismessina.me)). On the other, it's quite an honor that someone as [talented](http://www.berniceyeung.com/resume/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me) as Bernice would take an interest in us and [our work](http://citizenagency.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and spend over eight months gathering information, anecdotes and ideas through the tumult of our two-plus-year relationship. It is worth noting that the story began modestly about the germination of the [coworking movement](http://coworking.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), but after [several](http://blog.coworking.info/2007/09/26/jelly-on-npr/?ref=chrismessina.me) [other](http://blog.coworking.info/2007/05/21/ny-post-article-creating-a-wireless-hub/?ref=chrismessina.me) [media](http://blog.coworking.info/2007/08/20/the-philadelphia-inquirer-loves-indyhall/?ref=chrismessina.me) [outlets](http://blog.coworking.info/2007/03/11/the-cult-of-the-bedouin-hacker/?ref=chrismessina.me) [beat her to the scoop](http://blog.coworking.info/2007/02/26/coworking-in-businessweekcom/?ref=chrismessina.me), Bernice decided to bring the backstory of our relationship to the forefront. In other words, when Bernice started talking to us, our conversations were about coworking, *not* our relationship. I can't even imagine how many times Bernice had to rewrite the piece, especially since, months into her research, [as you know](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/01/14/transitions/?ref=chrismessina.me), Tara and I broke up. But in the end, that's what Bernice decided to focus on and write about. In trying to piece together what to make of this story and how to feel about it, in some ways I've been more interested in other people's varied reactions to it — not quite in the same way that Tara described as ["vulnerability" leading to defensiveness](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2008/07/28/living-life-online-pitfalls-and-perks/?ref=chrismessina.me) (though I recognize that effect in myself occasionally), but more from the perspective of a bystander witnessing *other people* thinking out loud about *other people* leading more public lives. Some people seem to really support the choice (or *ability*) to live openly. Others [question it](http://www.metafilter.com/73659/So-Open-it-Hurts?ref=chrismessina.me), or even lambast the choice, calling it "[egocentric](http://www.metafilter.com/73659/So-Open-it-Hurts?ref=chrismessina.me#2199926)" or "[juvenile](http://www.metafilter.com/73659/So-Open-it-Hurts?ref=chrismessina.me#2200019)" or "[self-important navel-gazing](http://www.metafilter.com/73659/So-Open-it-Hurts?ref=chrismessina.me#2200036)". That's cool. Some people are apparently able to devote more of their [cognitive surplus](http://blip.tv/file/855937?ref=chrismessina.me) ogling and critiquing the lives of others. Whatevs. That our relationship was something of a spectacle is not beyond my grasp. I do *see* it — even if throughout the relationship I kind of held that idea in the abstract, like, "well, people know this internet concoction that is 'The Tara & Chris Show', but I'm still the same regular dude I've always been..." I don't think it was ever the intention — or at least something that I put any conscious effort in to — to become known for being a public*ish* couple. It just kind of happened. I mean, hell, Tara says as much when she points out that it took her pushing me out a window to get me to show some gumption on the projects that I stoked and then ran away from leading! I guess to put this in perspective, the story is interesting, and it's interesting to me, because as it is for most people who end up featured in articles, a lot of it is about being in the right place at the right time, surrounded by the right people. No amount of self-aggrandizement can do this for you. It happens to you. Oftentimes in spite of what you might have otherwise preferred. I also think that we were something of an anomaly, especially in our pathetically male-dominated industry. Ayn Rand talks about it the Fountainhead. And in our case, you had it two-fold: two passionate and dedicated individuals coming together romantically, professionally and productively — even if only for a relatively short amount of time — able to produce results... And that we did it using new and unknown social tools, well, that's kind of interesting. And says something about the period we're living in. I mean, it *is* interesting to think that the design of Flickr and Twitter actually shaped the contours of our relationship: by facilitating openness as the default, our relationship was simply more open and exposed. And long after [lonelygirl15](http://www.lg15.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) was proven to be a farce, the result was that we ended up with this amazing network of friends and contacts, made up of people who got to know us as individuals and as a couple, and to know that we *are* just your regular folks, and that we use the same internet as everyone else, and that we stumble humiliatingly and earnestly along just as everyone else, seeking the approval and attention of our peers, while giving away the source code to our ideas and our experiences all along the way. Really, so what? *Really*: so what? . . . Tara said to me that we're at the end of an era. And that, in some ways, this story, now published, serves as a transition point. I was reluctant at first, but now I agree. I told Bernice that I felt like I'd aged six years in six months when she last interviewed me this spring, and that's true; even though I'm still pretty naive and more ignorant than I care to admit, I'm older now than I was in my relationship with Tara. Tara forced me to grow up a lot and to take a lot more responsibility for my feelings, for my actions and for my thoughts. And so, as we (I) transition from the awkward adolescence of the social web, I take with me lessons about . . . the natural and effective constant exercise of free will. . . . . . . Y'know, I didn't say very much at all during the months following our breakup. Oftentimes I thought to myself, "you should write something about what's going on... in case someone else is ever in this situation. Or to defend yourself." But I always stopped myself. Sometimes things *are* too personal to share, and sometimes experiences cannot, or should not, be generalized. Sometimes what's there to be learned is in the *going through*, not in the *seeing it done*. I also think that it's perfectly valid that each person make up their own mind about how open they want to be about their life, for better or for worse, to whatever extent fits their needs. I typically try to be as open as I'm comfortable with, and then a little more, but it doesn't always work out that way. While I hope that I can provide one kind of example that might be useful in some cases, I certainly don't imagine that my example is one that would work for everyone, or even necessarily *anyone* else. Yes, we were open about our relationship to an extent that many people would probably prefer not to be; that was a choice we made, and that I think made sense at the time. I'm now in a new relationship, and a very different relationship, and I will treat it according to its own unique nature and internal logic. How *"open"* we will be, I can't say. But that *I* am more open, in a much transformed, deeper, way, is unarguable. That much I know to be true. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Marcus Ramberg](http://nordaaker.com/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-31 00:37:51 Hey Chris. I read this piece a couple of days back when it was linked from waxy.org. I am very impressed both with the depth of Bernice's article and with the way you two have handled yourself. **[dave mcclure](http://500hats.typepad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-31 04:16:09 thanks for sharing, chris. (and please keep dancing like no one is watching :) **[Alex Hillman](http://www.dangerouslyawesome.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-31 05:35:26 Chris, I've remarked a number of times how one of the most uncomfortable parts of the last several months was your general radio silence compared to Tara's continuing openness. Knowing both of you, I certainly understand and judge neither of you. However, I want to let you know that I appreciate that this piece was able to elicit some more personal/philosophical commentary here, contrast to the technical/philosophical stuff you've journaled over the bulk of 2008\. Either way, the piece in SFMag was remarkable. Also remarkable is your continuing impact on my, and many others, ways of looking at the world. Online and off. **bob brigham** ¡ 2008-07-31 10:22:42 Wow man, quite a read. It sounds like it was quite an era. **Tara 'missrogue' Hun** ¡ 2008-07-31 17:16:54 Thanks for this, Chris. FWIW, I still think the sun shines out of your ass. ;) I'm glad Bernice captured that time. It was the best of times...etc etc. **[Living Life Online: pitfalls and perks | ::HorsePigCow:: marketing uncommon](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2008/07/28/living-life-online-pitfalls-and-perks/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-31 17:22:53 \[...\] :: update: Chris’ awesome response to the article. \[...\] **[Stephen Collins](http://www.acidlabs.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-31 17:45:12 I'll pitch in with Alex. Your relative silence was a little perturbing. That said, I totally get it. And, like Alex, I don't judge. I've been where you are and understand. Personally, I value the (geographically distant) mateship we have and look to you professionally as an inspirer and leader for us all. Bernice's article was very raw, very confronting, and on reflection totally amazing and worth it. As an aside, I can't wait to catch up in Perth in November. Drinks on me. **[Open Relationships and the Long Tail of Pain | Gauravonomics Blog](http://www.gauravonomics.com/blog/open-relationships-and-the-long-tail-of-pain/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-31 23:15:52 \[...\] — “So Open It Hurts” — and, in keeping with the spirit of the story, both Chris and Tara have blogged about it – That our relationship was something of a spectacle is not \[...\] **[Thejesh GN](http://thejeshgn.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-01 06:07:16 I appreciated ans still appreciate both you & Tara. How much open you want to be is left to you. All the very best. **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » First blog post of Aug 2008](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/08/first-blog-post-of-aug-2008?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-01 09:47:16 \[...\] You’re right Chris: “Sometimes things are too personal to share, and sometimes experienc... Welcome to the Aquarium we call “our industry”. \[...\] **Gordon Rae** ¡ 2008-08-10 02:46:05 I added you to my RSS feed only three weeks before you went public with the split, so for me the whole scenario felt like being colleagues in an office, and I kept finding stuff I wasn't meant to see. Except I was meant to see it. I quickly grasped that you guys weren't trying to be exhibitionists, and I wasn't being invited to be a voyeur, either. I feel you and Tara both walked your talk in a really courageous way, and you continue to do. I'm not surprised you might want to do things differently next time around :-) Bernice's article was a wonderful piece of journalism. ### Bookmarks for July 07 to July 21 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-july-07-to-july-21/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:49.000Z A bi-weekly collection of linky goodness. #### [? DĂŠcouvrons OAuth avec mixin (et django-oauth) Âť Django, Web Semantique Âť Journal Âť Biologeek, l'avis d'un freelance passionnĂŠ par le web et son ĂŠvolution.](http://www.biologeek.com/django,web-semantique/decouvrons-oauth-avec-mixin-et-django-oauth/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![ ? DĂŠcouvrons OAuth avec mixin (et django-oauth) Âť Django, Web Semantique Âť Journal Âť Biologeek, l'avis d'un freelance passionnĂŠ par le web et son ĂŠvolution.](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/frejizaje/thumbnail/160) Good write up (in French) of OAuth. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [django](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/django?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [mixin authentication — mixin documentation](http://dev.mixin.com/authentication.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![mixin authentication — mixin documentation](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/crunegis/thumbnail/160) mixin provides a standard authentication based on OAuth. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [mixin](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mixin?ref=chrismessina.me), [documentation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/documentation?ref=chrismessina.me), [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Save the Fail Whales Now](http://savethefailwhales.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Save the Fail Whales Now ](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/galemohord/thumbnail/160) The fail whale may be going the way of the Dodo if you don’t retweat the message below. The fancy pants engineers over at Twitter are “revamping their system to scale”. This cynical move toward business efficiency puts the fail whale species at risk of mass extinction. When Twitter was asked to comment on this, they had nothing to say for themselves. Nothing! Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [fail whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20whale?ref=chrismessina.me), [humor](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/humor?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [iclypso](http://iclypso.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![iclypso](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/prewimow/thumbnail/160) Great source of WebClip icons for iPhone and iPod Touch. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [icons](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/icons?ref=chrismessina.me), [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [bookmarklet](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bookmarklet?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Monolab|Workspace](http://workspace.monolab.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Monolab|Workspace](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wevezam/thumbnail/160) Monolab|Workspace is a network of open work places developed in cosmopolitan areas around the world. It is designed for small and large businesses looking for cost-effective ways to conduct business in a global and connected world, while meaningfully improving the business traveling experience of their collaborators. Monolab|Workspace offers all-inclusive packages starting at $1,500/month, without any setup fees nor long-term commitments. It provides a range of tools and services that would be out of reach for small companies, at a fraction of the cost of setting up dedicated offices in comparable locations. Monolab|Workspace is managed as a club, granting members from one location access to all other locations, at no extra cost. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [coworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/coworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [workspace](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/workspace?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Save Gas and Office Rent by Co-working | FastCompany.TV](http://www.fastcompany.tv/video/save-gas-and-office-rent-co-working?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Save Gas and Office Rent by Co-working | FastCompany.TV](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/scofebi/thumbnail/160) Co-working expert Sanford Dickert runs CooperBricolage, a co-working space in New York City, and will be talking to us about trends in this movement to leave the home office behind. Dickert will also show us some of the tools he uses to collaborate with others, and make his space rock-and-roll. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [coworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/coworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [sanford dickert](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/sanford%20dickert?ref=chrismessina.me), [video](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/video?ref=chrismessina.me), [interview](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/interview?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [AutonomoDOTus Group Wants to Help Free Your Data - Webmonkey](http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/AutonomoDOTus%5FGroup%5FWants%5Fto%5FHelp%5FFree%5FYour%5FData?ref=chrismessina.me) ![AutonomoDOTus Group Wants to Help Free Your Data - Webmonkey](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/bramastepos/thumbnail/160) "Of course that’s also the goal of groups like Chris Messina’s DiSo project and in this case Autonomo.us is a bit late to the game. Rather than spending their time on grandiose statements, the DiSo Project and others like are already distributing code that just works." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [woot](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/woot?ref=chrismessina.me), [diso](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/diso?ref=chrismessina.me), [autonomo.us](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/autonomo.us?ref=chrismessina.me), [free software foundation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/free%20software%20foundation?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [API Overview : Tech Center : NPR](http://www.npr.org/api/index.php?ref=chrismessina.me) ![API Overview : Tech Center : NPR](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/tucusostu/thumbnail/160) "NPR's API provides a flexible, powerful way to access your favorite NPR content, including audio from most NPR programs dating back to 1995 as well as text, images and other web-only content from NPR and NPR member stations. This archive consists of over 250,000 stories that are grouped into more than 5,000 different aggregations." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [npr](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/npr?ref=chrismessina.me), [api](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/api?ref=chrismessina.me), [open data](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/open%20data?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Axiom Stack - Home](http://www.axiomstack.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Axiom Stack - Home](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/bedigosco/thumbnail/160) write dynamic web applications with Zen-like simplicity Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [open source](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/open%20source?ref=chrismessina.me), [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [framework](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/framework?ref=chrismessina.me), [programming](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/programming?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [OAuth & Google (oauth-goog)](http://sites.google.com/site/oauthgoog/Home?ref=chrismessina.me) ![OAuth & Google (oauth-goog)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/nowaxist/thumbnail/160) This site contains public information about early stage development work that Google is doing with OAuth. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [google](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/google?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Twitter took off from simple to 'tweet' success - USATODAY.com](http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/2008-07-20-twitter-tweet-social-network%5FN.htm?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Twitter took off from simple to 'tweet' success - USATODAY.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/sculasis/thumbnail/160) Twitter has become so popular, so fast, that keeping up with its fast-growing user base is a real issue. So many people now use Twitter to update friends that the system often crashes. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [usatoday](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/usatoday?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Conference Organizing Distribution | groups.drupal.org](http://groups.drupal.org/conference-organizing-distribution?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Conference Organizing Distribution | groups.drupal.org](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/drethedescim/thumbnail/160) In April, NASA CoLab released a Request For Proposal (RFP) for a Partnership Software which very explicitly requested the software to be built on an open source CMS, used for one particular use case, then packaged up and released as an installable application. We (Chapter Three LLC) recently won the contract with a Drupal solution, and our goal is to build an out-of-the-box "Drupal Product" that organizers can use to facilitate participatory conferences (ala Drupalcon, BarCamp etc.). The distro will support conference invitation, registration, session proposals + voting, note-taking, and forming post-conference working groups. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [nasa](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/nasa?ref=chrismessina.me), [drupal](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/drupal?ref=chrismessina.me), [open source](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/open%20source?ref=chrismessina.me), [organizing](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/organizing?ref=chrismessina.me), [conference](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/conference?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [dandyid: manage your social graph once](http://www.dandyid.org/beta/start?ref=chrismessina.me) ![dandyid: manage your social graph once](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/grobine/thumbnail/160) DandyId is a free service that connects all of your online identities & makes them globally accessible. Your e-mail address serves as a single access point to your Flickr, Twitter, LinkedIn & much more -- services being added daily! Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [identity](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/identity?ref=chrismessina.me), [social graph](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/social%20graph?ref=chrismessina.me), [rel-me](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/rel-me?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Dear OpenID - Webmonkey](http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/Dear%5FOpen%5FID:%5FYou%5FDeserve%5FBetter?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Dear OpenID - Webmonkey](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/yilibe/thumbnail/160) Laments on the lack of relying parties for OpenID. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me), [myspace](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/myspace?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Coworking in Austin - Conjunctured Âť Howdy](http://conjunctured.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Coworking in Austin - Conjunctured Âť Howdy](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cradurof/thumbnail/160) Conjunctured is Austin’s first coworking space (we just got the keys). We’re open, so come on by! Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [coworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/coworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [austin](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/austin?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### The Open Web Foundation URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-open-web-foundation/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:02.000Z [](http://openwebfoundation.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)During this morning's keynote at [OSCON](http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2008/?ref=chrismessina.me), [David Recordon](http://www.davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [announced](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/338898.html?ref=chrismessina.me) the [formation](http://openwebfoundation.org/2008/07/announcing-the-open-web-foundation.html?ref=chrismessina.me) of the [Open Web Foundation](http://openwebfoundation.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) (his [slides](http://www.slideshare.net/daveman692/supporting-the-open-web-oscon-2008/?ref=chrismessina.me)), an initiative with which I am involved, aimed at becoming something akin to a "Creative Commons for patents", with the intention of lowering the costs and barriers to the development and adoption of open and free specifications like [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). As I expected, there's been some [healthy skepticism](http://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2008/07/oscon-open-web-foundation-laun.html?ref=chrismessina.me) that usually starts with "[Another foundation? Really?](http://joi.ito.com/weblog/2008/07/24/announcing-the.html?ref=chrismessina.me)" or "[Wait, doesn't \[insert other organization name\] do this?](http://getsatisfaction.com/openweb/topics/whats%5Fthe%5Fdiff?ref=chrismessina.me)" And the answers are "[Yes, exactly](http://fastwonderblog.com/2008/07/24/announcing-the-open-web-foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me)" and "[No, not exactly](http://almaer.com/blog/the-open-web-foundation-apache-for-the-other-stuff?ref=chrismessina.me)" (respectively). I'll let John McCrae [explain](http://therealmccrea.com/2008/07/24/the-open-web-foundation-is-here/?ref=chrismessina.me): > ...every grass roots effort, whether OpenID, OAuth, or something yet to be dreamt up, needs to work through a whole lot of issues to go from great idea to finalized spec that companies large and small feel comfortable implementing. In particular, large companies want to make sure that they can adopt these building blocks without fear of being sued for infringing on somebody’s intellectual property rights. Absent the creation of this new organization, we were likely to see each new effort potentially creating yet-another-foundation to tackle what is essentially a common set of requirements. And this is essentially where we were in the OAuth process, [following in the footsteps](http://kveton.com/blog/2008/07/24/announcing-the-open-web-foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me) of the [OpenID Foundation](http://openid.net/foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me) before us, trying to figure out for ourselves the legal and intellectual property issues that stood in the way of \[a few\] larger companies being able to adopt the protocol. Now, I should point out that OAuth and OpenID are the result of somewhat unique and recent phenomena, where, due to the [low cost of networked collaboration](http://www.shirky.com/herecomeseverybody/2008/04/looking-for-the-mouse.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and the [high value of commoditizing common protocols between web services](http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/07/open-web-foundation.html?ref=chrismessina.me), the [OAuth protocol came together in just under a year](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/09/21/announcing-oauth-10-public-draft-1/?ref=chrismessina.me), written by a small number of highly motivated *individuals*. The problem is that it's taken nearly the same amount of time trying to developer our approach to intellectual property, despite the [collective desire](https://agree2.com/declarations/oauth-non-assertion-covenant?ref=chrismessina.me) of the authors to let anyone freely use it! This system is clearly broken, and not just for us, but for every group that wants to provide untethered building blocks for use on the open web — especially those groups who don't have [qualified legal counsel](http://wachob.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) at their disposal. That other groups exist to remedy this issue is something that we realized and considered very seriously before embarking on our own effort. After all, we really don't want to have to do this kind of work — indeed it often feels more like a distraction than something that actually adds value to the technology — but the reality is that clarity and understanding is actually critical once you get outside the small circle of original creators, and in that space is where our opportunity lies. In particular, for small, independent groups to work on open specifications (n.b. *not* standards!) that may eventually be adopted industry-wide, there needs to be a lightweight and well-articulated path for doing the right thing™ when it comes to intellectual property that does not burden the creative process with defining scope prematurely (a process that is costly and usually takes months, greatly inhibiting community momentum!) and that also doesn't impose [high monetary fees](http://www.w3.org/Consortium/fees?ref=chrismessina.me) on participation, especially when outcomes may be initially uncertain. At the same time, the final output of these kinds of efforts should ultimately be free to be implemented by all the participants and the community at large. And rather than forcing the assignment of all related patents owned by all participants to a central foundation (as in the [case](http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/ipr-policy.shtml?ref=chrismessina.me#contrib-ownership) of the [XMPP Foundation](http://www.xmpp.org/xsf/?ref=chrismessina.me)) or getting every participant to license their patents to others (something most companies seem loathe to do without some fiscal upside), we've seen a [trend](http://xml.coverpages.org/ni2005-10-04-a.html?ref=chrismessina.me) over the past several years towards [patent non-assert agreements](http://www.osgi.org/News/NonAssert?ref=chrismessina.me) which allow companies to maintain their IP, to not have to disclose it, and yet to allow for the free, unencumbered use of the specification. If this sounds complicated, it's because it is, and is a significant stumbling block for many community-driven open source and open specification projects that aim for, or have the potential for, widespread adoption. And [this is where](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/07/24/open-web-foundation-oscon-2008/?ref=chrismessina.me) we hope the Open Web Foundation can [provide specific value](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/open%5Fweb%5Ffoundation%5Flaunches%5Ft.php?ref=chrismessina.me) in creating templates for these kinds of situations and guiding folks through effective use of them, ultimately in support of a more robust, [more interoperable and open web](http://redmonk.net/archives/2008/07/24/web-green-the-open-web-foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me). We do have much work ahead of us, but hopefully, if we are successful, we will reduce the overall cost to the industry of repeating this kind of work, again, in much the same way [Creative Commons](http://creativecommons.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) has done in providing [license alternatives](http://creativecommons.org/license/?ref=chrismessina.me) to copyright and making salient the notion that the way things are aren't the only way they have to be. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Dan Benyamin](http://dan.benyamin.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-25 10:39:11 Congratulations and best of luck on the launch of OWF (can I call it that?) -- a much needed development! **[Burak Arikan](http://burak-arikan.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-25 10:54:40 Thank you for the clarification Chris, Understanding the path from an independent group's work on open specifications to industry-wide adoption of those specs (which becomes standard) is very critical for the open web. This complex path, that is how to go from initial spec to a standard, itself should be open-sourced for a healthier web and it is helpful that you share your experience about it. **[Louis van Proosdij Duport » Lancement de la Fondation Open Web](http://blog.van-proosdij.fr/2008/07/25/lancement-de-la-fondation-open-web/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-26 04:42:30 \[...\] Ă  jour 26/07/2008 : Chris Messina explique le pourquoi d’une nouvelle fondation : The Open Web Foundation addthis\_url = \[...\] ### The Community Ampflier URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-community-ampflier/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:01.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2694614051/?ref=chrismessina.me)[](http://code.google.com/opensource/osa-hall-of-fame.html?ref=chrismessina.me)I am honored to be a recipient of [this year's](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/918498/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Google O'Reilly Open Source Award](http://code.google.com/opensource/osa-hall-of-fame.html?ref=chrismessina.me) for being the "[best community amplifier](http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2008/07/and-winners-of-2008-google-oreilly-open.html?ref=chrismessina.me)" for my work with the [microformats](http://microformats.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Spread Firefox](http://spreadfirefox.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [BarCamp](http://barcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) communities! (See the original [call for nominations](http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/04/open-source-award-nominations.html?ref=chrismessina.me)). Inexplicably I was [absent](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/865784075?ref=chrismessina.me) when they handed out the award, hanging out with folks at a [Python/Django/jQuery drinkup](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/918773/?ref=chrismessina.me) down the street, but I'm humbled all the same... especially since I work on a day to day basis with such high caliber and incredible people without whom none of these projects would exist, would not have found success, and most importantly, would never have ever mattered in the first place. Also thanks to [@bmevans](http://twitter.com/bmevans/statuses/865791887?ref=chrismessina.me), [@TheRazorBlade](http://twitter.com/TheRazorBlade/statuses/865780753?ref=chrismessina.me), [@kveton](http://twitter.com/kveton/statuses/865780781?ref=chrismessina.me), [@anandiyer](http://twitter.com/anandiyer/statuses/865778491?ref=chrismessina.me), [@donpdonp](http://twitter.com/donpdonp/statuses/865852294?ref=chrismessina.me), [@dylanjfield](http://twitter.com/dylanjfield/statuses/865799890?ref=chrismessina.me), [@bytebot](http://twitter.com/bytebot/statuses/865778280?ref=chrismessina.me), [@mtrichardson](http://twitter.com/mtrichardson/statuses/865851695?ref=chrismessina.me), [@galoppini](http://twitter.com/galoppini/statuses/865778742?ref=chrismessina.me) for your tweets of congratulations! And our work continues. So lucky we are, to have such good work, and such good people to work with. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Matthias Pfefferle](http://notizblog.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-23 02:06:31 Congrats :) **[Chad Dickerson](http://www.chaddickerson.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-23 06:58:31 What an aptly-named award -- congrats! Well-deserved. Keep amplifying. :) **Todd** ¡ 2008-07-23 11:12:51 You were supposed to win the "Fail Whale Hater of the Year Award", but the plaque never arrived from the engravers. :P Seriously, congratulations, you deserve it. **Bob Uva** ¡ 2008-07-23 12:22:02 Congratulations Chris! I'll be working at Vidoop in a couple of weeks and look forward to meeting and working with you. **Brad Neuberg** ¡ 2008-07-23 12:34:25 Hi Chris, congrats! This is awesome. Brad **[Lachlan Hardy](http://lachstock.com.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-23 13:11:14 Congratulations, Chris! **[Silicon Florist’s links arrangement for July 23 » Silicon Florist](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/07/23/silicon-florists-links-arrangement-for-july-23/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-23 22:59:03 \[...\] The Community Ampflier | FactoryCity Chris Messina writes “Inexplicably I was absent when they handed out the award, hanging out with folks at a Python/Django/jQuery drinkup down the street, but I’m humbled all the same… especially since I work on a day to day basis with such high caliber and incredible people without whom none of these projects would exist, would not have found success, and most importantly, would never have ever mattered in the first place.” \[...\] **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » Blogging on the day after f8](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/07/blogging-on-the-day-after-f8?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-25 01:47:00 \[...\] Congrats to Chris “hardest working man in open social networking” Messina - in being nam... \[...\] **[Lloyd Budd](http://lloydbudd.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-25 07:27:44 [As I tweated](http://twitter.com/lloydbudd/statuses/866303038?ref=chrismessina.me), amplifier is an awesome name for an award to win! You go up to eleven! **[BarCampAfrica, and the Spirit of UnConference « BarCamp Africa](http://barcampafrica.com/2008/10/06/barcampafrica-and-the-spirit-of-unconference/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-06 13:49:43 \[...\] The Community Ampflier \[...\] ### Bookmarks for Jul 20 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jul-20/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:50.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### [iclypso](http://iclypso.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![iclypso](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/prewimow/thumbnail/160) Great source of WebClip icons for iPhone and iPod Touch. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [icons](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/icons?ref=chrismessina.me), [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [bookmarklet](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/bookmarklet?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Monolab|Workspace](http://workspace.monolab.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Monolab|Workspace](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wevezam/thumbnail/160) Monolab|Workspace is a network of open work places developed in cosmopolitan areas around the world. It is designed for small and large businesses looking for cost-effective ways to conduct business in a global and connected world, while meaningfully improving the business traveling experience of their collaborators. Monolab|Workspace offers all-inclusive packages starting at $1,500/month, without any setup fees nor long-term commitments. It provides a range of tools and services that would be out of reach for small companies, at a fraction of the cost of setting up dedicated offices in comparable locations. Monolab|Workspace is managed as a club, granting members from one location access to all other locations, at no extra cost. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [coworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/coworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [workspace](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/workspace?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Save Gas and Office Rent by Co-working | FastCompany.TV](http://www.fastcompany.tv/video/save-gas-and-office-rent-co-working?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Save Gas and Office Rent by Co-working | FastCompany.TV](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/scofebi/thumbnail/160) Co-working expert Sanford Dickert runs CooperBricolage, a co-working space in New York City, and will be talking to us about trends in this movement to leave the home office behind. Dickert will also show us some of the tools he uses to collaborate with others, and make his space rock-and-roll. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [coworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/coworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [sanford dickert](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/sanford%20dickert?ref=chrismessina.me), [video](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/video?ref=chrismessina.me), [interview](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/interview?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [AutonomoDOTus Group Wants to Help Free Your Data - Webmonkey](http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/AutonomoDOTus%5FGroup%5FWants%5Fto%5FHelp%5FFree%5FYour%5FData?ref=chrismessina.me) ![AutonomoDOTus Group Wants to Help Free Your Data - Webmonkey](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/bramastepos/thumbnail/160) "Of course that’s also the goal of groups like Chris Messina’s DiSo project and in this case Autonomo.us is a bit late to the game. Rather than spending their time on grandiose statements, the DiSo Project and others like are already distributing code that just works." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [woot](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/woot?ref=chrismessina.me), [diso](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/diso?ref=chrismessina.me), [autonomo.us](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/autonomo.us?ref=chrismessina.me), [free software foundation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/free%20software%20foundation?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [API Overview : Tech Center : NPR](http://www.npr.org/api/index.php?ref=chrismessina.me) ![API Overview : Tech Center : NPR](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/tucusostu/thumbnail/160) "NPR's API provides a flexible, powerful way to access your favorite NPR content, including audio from most NPR programs dating back to 1995 as well as text, images and other web-only content from NPR and NPR member stations. This archive consists of over 250,000 stories that are grouped into more than 5,000 different aggregations." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [npr](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/npr?ref=chrismessina.me), [api](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/api?ref=chrismessina.me), [open data](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/open%20data?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Axiom Stack - Home](http://www.axiomstack.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Axiom Stack - Home](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/bedigosco/thumbnail/160) write dynamic web applications with Zen-like simplicity Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [open source](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/open%20source?ref=chrismessina.me), [iphone](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iphone?ref=chrismessina.me), [framework](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/framework?ref=chrismessina.me), [programming](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/programming?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Bookmarks for Jul 18 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jul-18/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:50.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### [Save the Fail Whales Now](http://savethefailwhales.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Save the Fail Whales Now ](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/galemohord/thumbnail/160) The fail whale may be going the way of the Dodo if you don’t retweat the message below. The fancy pants engineers over at Twitter are “revamping their system to scale”. This cynical move toward business efficiency puts the fail whale species at risk of mass extinction. When Twitter was asked to comment on this, they had nothing to say for themselves. Nothing! Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [fail whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20whale?ref=chrismessina.me), [humor](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/humor?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Bookmarks for Jul 13 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jul-13/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:51.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### [? DĂŠcouvrons OAuth avec mixin (et django-oauth) Âť Django, Web Semantique Âť Journal Âť Biologeek, l'avis d'un freelance passionnĂŠ par le web et son ĂŠvolution.](http://www.biologeek.com/django,web-semantique/decouvrons-oauth-avec-mixin-et-django-oauth/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![ ? DĂŠcouvrons OAuth avec mixin (et django-oauth) Âť Django, Web Semantique Âť Journal Âť Biologeek, l'avis d'un freelance passionnĂŠ par le web et son ĂŠvolution.](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/frejizaje/thumbnail/160) Good write up (in French) of OAuth. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [django](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/django?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [mixin authentication — mixin documentation](http://dev.mixin.com/authentication.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![mixin authentication — mixin documentation](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/crunegis/thumbnail/160) mixin provides a standard authentication based on OAuth. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [mixin](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mixin?ref=chrismessina.me), [documentation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/documentation?ref=chrismessina.me), [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### OAuth for the iPhone: Pownce.app URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/oauth-for-the-iphone-pownceapp/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:00.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2658493767/?ref=chrismessina.me)If you're one of the lucky folks that's been able to upgrade your iPhone (and [activate it](http://www.techmeme.com/080711/p58?ref=chrismessina.me#a080711p58)) to the [2.0 firmware](http://www.macrumors.com/2008/07/11/apple-releases-official-iphone-2-0-firmware/?ref=chrismessina.me), I encourage you to give the [Pownce application](http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=284540392&mt=8&ref=chrismessina.me) a try, if only to see a real world example of OAuth in action (that link will open in iTunes). Here's how it goes in pictures: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2658493767/?ref=chrismessina.me)[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2659321888/?ref=chrismessina.me)[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2659323294/?ref=chrismessina.me)[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2658497753/?ref=chrismessina.me)And the actual flow: 1. Launch the Pownce app. You'll be prompted to login in at Pownce.com 2. Pownce.app launches Pownce.com via an initial OAuth request; here you signin to your Pownce account using your username or password (if Pownce supported OpenID, you could signin with OpenID as well). 3. Once successfully signed in to your account, you can grant the Pownce iPhone app permission to access your account. 4. Once you click Okay, which is basically a pownce:// protocol link that will fire up Pownce.app to complete the transaction. There are three important aspects of this: - First, you're not entering your username and password into the Pownce application -- you're only entering it into the website. This might not seem like a great distinction, but if a non-Pownce developed iPhone application wanted to access or post to your Pownce account, this flow could be reused, and you'd never need to expose your credentials to that third party app; - Second, it creates room for the adoption of OpenID — or something other single sign-on solution — to be implemented at Pownce later on, since OAuth doesn't specify how you do authentication. - Third, if the iPhone is lost or stolen, the owner of the phone could visit Pownce.com and disable access to their account via the Pownce iPhone app -- and not need to change their password and disrupt all the other services or applications that might already have been granted access. Personally, as I've fired up an increasing number of native apps on the iPhone 2.0 software, I've been increasingly frustrated and annoyed at how many of them want my username and password, and how few of them support this kind of delegated authorization flow. If you consider that there are already a few Twitter-based applications available, and none of them support OAuth (Twitter still has yet to implement OAuth), in order to even test these apps out, you have to give away your credentials over and over again. Worse, you can guarantee that a third-party will destroy your credentials once you've handed them over, even if you uninstall the application. These are a few reasons to consider OAuth for iPhone application development and authorization. Better yet, [Jon Crosby's](http://www.kaboomerang.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Objective-C library](http://code.google.com/p/oauthconsumer/?ref=chrismessina.me) can even give you a [head start](http://www.kaboomerang.com/blog/2007/11/02/developer-release-oauth-for-mac-apps/?ref=chrismessina.me)!*Hat tip to* [*Colin Devroe*](http://cdevroe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) *for the* [*suggestion*](http://pownce.com/cdevroe/notes/2742664/?ref=chrismessina.me)*.* [*Cross-posted*](http://blog.oauth.net/2008/07/11/oauth-for-the-iphone-pownceapp/?ref=chrismessina.me) *to the OAuth blog.* --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Todd** ¡ 2008-07-11 11:51:07 Pownce asks Pownce if its OK to access itself? **[Joseph Smarr](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-11 12:53:40 This is super cool to see in action, and I'm proud to say I was watching over Mike's shoulders at the OAuth Summit as he put the finishing touches on the OAuth integration. ;) Go Pownce! **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-11 12:54:00 Flickr uploaders to the same. The point is, you don't know who's making the request, so you treat them all the same. Still, I take your point. :) **Chris Thomson** ¡ 2008-07-25 11:14:16 It's interesting to see OAuth in action in an iPhone app. The only thing I feel could've been done better is an integrated browser in the Pownce app, similar to the Twitterrific for iPhone app (both for opened urls and the OAuth authorization), but it's still a seamless process. P.S. - Chris, when I tried to send my comment using my Clickpass account, it wouldn't allow me to because it claimed the OpenID return to URL wasn't in the trust root. Trust root was http://factoryjoe.com/blog/ and the return to URL was http://factoryjoe.com/blog?lots&of¶ms&here :) **[OAuth on the iPhone - I’m Mike](http://immike.net/blog/2008/09/08/oauth-on-the-iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-08 13:08:07 \[...\] Pownce iPhone app to a group of folks at the OAuth Summit. Following the summit, Chris Messina, Simon Willison, and others pointed to Pownce as an example of “the right way” to use \[...\] ### Bookmarks for Jul 10 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jul-10/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:52.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### [Mashing Twitter and Identi.ca: Following the conversation](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/07/10/mashing-twitter-and-identica-following-the-conversation/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Mashing Twitter and Identi.ca: Following the conversation](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wrehesoqan/thumbnail/160) "Like many, I’ve found the frequent appearance of the Fail Whale discouraging, if not downright frustrating. Not only has Twitter expanded my horizons, it has become an essential tool. Other services just don’t offer the same means to an end." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [fail whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20whale?ref=chrismessina.me), [identi.ca](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/identi.ca?ref=chrismessina.me), [microblogging](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/microblogging?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Bookmarks for Jul 09 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jul-09/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:53.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### [Christopher Blizzard Âť Blog Archive Âť announcing whoisi](http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=348&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Christopher Blizzard Âť Blog Archive Âť announcing whoisi](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/rechashu/thumbnail/160) I’d like to announce the general availability of a project that I’ve been working on in my spare time for the last few months: whoisi.com. If I had to describe it in one sentence I would describe it as a site that lets you easily keep track of what your friends are doing on the Internet via RSS feeds - but with some twists. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [lifestream](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/lifestream?ref=chrismessina.me), [whoisi](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/whoisi?ref=chrismessina.me), [mozilla](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mozilla?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Bookmarks for Jul 08 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jul-08/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:54.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### [orkut - oauth](http://www.orkut.co.in/Community.aspx?cmm=60628517&ref=chrismessina.me) ![orkut - oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/greyugusce/thumbnail/160) This is a community dedicated for the oauth authentication protocol developers ! Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Bookmarks for Jul 07 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jul-07/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:55.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### [Web Worker Daily Âť Archive Design Patterns for Coworking ÂŤ](http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/07/07/design-patterns-for-coworking/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Web Worker Daily Âť Archive Design Patterns for Coworking ÂŤ](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/kekiyex/thumbnail/160) "Recently a member of the global coworking mailing list, Joseph Holsten) recently created what’s essentially a recipe book of ‘how to’ guides for those seeking to setup a coworking community, coworking space or simply better operate the communities and spaces they’re already running." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [coworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/coworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [patterns](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/patterns?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Vaga | Ten by Twenty ™](http://www.tenbytwenty.com/products/icon-sets/vaga?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Vaga | Ten by Twenty ™](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/rigigat/thumbnail/160) This set of 60, semi-transparent .png icons (16 x 16) ready to use and available for free download. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [icons](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/icons?ref=chrismessina.me), [free icons](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/free%20icons?ref=chrismessina.me), [16x16](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/16x16?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [TrackThis: Track FedEx/UPS/USPS/DHL Packages using Twitter (or Email, IM or SMS)](http://trackthis.pb30.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![TrackThis: Track FedEx/UPS/USPS/DHL Packages using Twitter (or Email, IM or SMS)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/drabozit/thumbnail/160) Track Your Packages Over Twitter Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [ups](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ups?ref=chrismessina.me), [tracking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tracking?ref=chrismessina.me), [fedex](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fedex?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Bookmarks for Jul 06 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jul-06/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:55.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### [Feed Store :: Fail Whale](http://store.muledesign.com/shirts/fail-whale.php?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Feed Store :: Fail Whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/xoqulizas/thumbnail/160) "We love Twitter. We even love it when it’s down. Twitter gives you lots of opportunities to love it. "This shirt will ship mid-July. We’ll notify you via Twitter, unless it’s down. Yeah… just come back here and check. "…and if you’re looking for the ACTUAL Fail Whale stuff, there’s an Official Fan Club Store. You make enough with your Etsy craft store to buy from both of us." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [fail whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20whale?ref=chrismessina.me), [tshirts](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/tshirts?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [TweetDeck](http://www.tweetdeck.com/beta/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![TweetDeck](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/zuchewa/thumbnail/160) TweetDeck is an Adobe Air desktop application that is currently in private beta. It aims to evolve the existing functionality of Twitter by taking an abundance of information i.e twitter feeds, and breaking it down into more manageable bite sized pieces. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [adobe air](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/adobe%20air?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Technology Review: Who Owns Your Friends?](http://www.technologyreview.com/printer%5Ffriendly%5Farticle.aspx?id=20920&channel=biztech§ion=&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Technology Review: Who Owns Your Friends?](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/bohathochi/thumbnail/160) "The incident brought to a head a debate that had been raging for months behind the scenes at social-networking sites: who controls the data users post on their profiles? Advocates of so-called data portability, including Scoble and Smarr, say people should be able to transfer information easily in and out of any Web services they use. Facebook, on the other hand, says it needs to safeguard the information it stores so that it isn't misused, and that means keeping tight control over users' information. At stake is not simply the ease and security with which people move between social-networking sites but control of the currency that gives those sites their value: personal information." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [data portability](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/data%20portability?ref=chrismessina.me), [joseph smarr](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/joseph%20smarr?ref=chrismessina.me), [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [MUSEO :: a Free Quality Font from exljbris](http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/museo.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![MUSEO :: a Free Quality Font from exljbris](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/lochupoxom/thumbnail/160) A beautiful, free font. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [fonts](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fonts?ref=chrismessina.me), [free font](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/free%20font?ref=chrismessina.me), [typography](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/typography?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Diavlo :: a Free Quality Font from exljbris](http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/diavlo.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Diavlo :: a Free Quality Font from exljbris](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/zicudu/thumbnail/160) Diavlo is a free font that contains 5 weights: Light, Book, SemiBold Medium, Bold and Black. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [fonts](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fonts?ref=chrismessina.me), [free font](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/free%20font?ref=chrismessina.me), [typography](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/typography?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Bookmarks for Jul 04 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jul-04/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:56.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### [Twitter: User Co-Creating or User Co-Opting? - O'Reilly Radar](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/07/twitter-user-cocreating-or-use.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Twitter: User Co-Creating or User Co-Opting? - O'Reilly Radar](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wanisa/thumbnail/160) "Whatever is actually going on at Twitter, allowing your user community to engage in a conversation regarding your product development can be incredibly valuable, and ignoring their behavior can lead you to miss a key new feature. However, if you embrace every use of your service, and avoid every complaint about a feature you don’t support, eventually the conversation will become dysfunctional, and could prove disastrous, undermining your credibility and service." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [hashtags](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/hashtags?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Bookmarks for Jul 03 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jul-03/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:57.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### ["This'll be the day that whales fly."](http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyarchives/1124.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/telecax/thumbnail/160) LOL -- a song for the Fail Whale! Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [failwhale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/failwhale?ref=chrismessina.me), [comic](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/comic?ref=chrismessina.me), [humor](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/humor?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [The Fail Whale Fan Club](http://failwhale.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![The Fail Whale Fan Club](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/dafoxu/thumbnail/160) FailWhale.com is the groupie | PR | Fan Club for one of coolest whales we know... you know... the handsome whale and his birdie entourage who show up occasionally on Twitter to let you know that it's time to push back from your keyboard and to go take a break. Yup! that one. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [failwhale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/failwhale?ref=chrismessina.me), [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [#fwh - Summize](http://summize.com/search?q=%23fwh&ref=chrismessina.me) ![#fwh - Summize](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/xiwevex/thumbnail/160) Search for the Twitter Fail Whale hashtag #fwh. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [hashtag](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/hashtag?ref=chrismessina.me), [fail whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20whale?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Twitter / yiyinglu](http://twitter.com/yiyinglu?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Twitter / yiyinglu](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wridokanuw/thumbnail/160) Creator of FailWhale and so on. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [yiyinglu](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yiyinglu?ref=chrismessina.me), [fail whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20whale?ref=chrismessina.me), [designer](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/designer?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Yiying Lu](http://www.yiyinglu.com/sc/illustration?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Yiying Lu](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/whapachaqus/thumbnail/160) The SOURCE of the Fail Whale!! Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [yiyinglu](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yiyinglu?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [The FAIL SNAIL on Flickr - Photo Sharing!](http://www.flickr.com/photos/ronin691/2634356788/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![The FAIL SNAIL on Flickr - Photo Sharing!](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/nothaxaxo/thumbnail/160) Inspired by the availability of Twitter's Fail Whale as a T-shirt and Tantek's "Note to Self" comment ( www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2631644440/#comment72157... ) I made teh Fail Snail, and he's coughing up some "goddamn leaky HTML" hex. I am releasing this as public domain, anyone may use it as their error message or whatever else you want, including Flickr geo tagging it with Twitter's office address. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [fail snail](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20snail?ref=chrismessina.me), [fail whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20whale?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [sassholes: Museum Piece, Circa 2025](http://sassholes.blogspot.com/2008/06/museum-piece-circa-2025.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![sassholes: Museum Piece, Circa 2025](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/jezem/thumbnail/160) Visitors to the Museum of Modern Art were fascinated to learn that in the year 2008 it was not uncommon for popular Internet services to experience something called "downtime," often represented by cute avatars that are now considered works of art... Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [fail whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20whale?ref=chrismessina.me), [museum](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/museum?ref=chrismessina.me), [art](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/art?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [House Industries - Neutraface](http://www.houseind.com/index.php?page=showfont&id=615&ref=chrismessina.me) ![House Industries - Neutraface](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/scivinog/thumbnail/160) I fucking love Neutraface! Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [neutraface](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/neutraface?ref=chrismessina.me), [fonts](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fonts?ref=chrismessina.me), [typography](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/typography?ref=chrismessina.me), [type](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/type?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Twitter, What Are You Doing? Co-Founder Tells All : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92177969&ref=chrismessina.me) ![Twitter, What Are You Doing? Co-Founder Tells All : NPR](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/sijacoriv/thumbnail/160) "The latter prognosis stems from users who are growing frustrated by repeat sightings of the "fail whale," the whimsical image Twitter posts when it goes off service. "Why doesn't Twitter stay up and running for more than a few hours at a time?" writes Twitter user @cscan. "Why isn't it stable? Is it simply scale, or is something else going on?"" Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [fail whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20whale?ref=chrismessina.me), [npr](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/npr?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Facebook | FailWhale](http://www.facebook.com/pages/FailWhale/64467830480) ![Facebook | FailWhale](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/fubeqasc/thumbnail/160) Welcome to the official Facebook Page of FailWhale. Get exclusive content and interact with FailWhale right from Facebook. Join Facebook to create your own Page or to start connecting with friends. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [fail whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20whale?ref=chrismessina.me), [twitter](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/twitter?ref=chrismessina.me), [facebook](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/facebook?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Twitter FailWhale Fan Club - FriendFeed](http://friendfeed.com/rooms/twitter-failwhale-fan-club?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Twitter FailWhale Fan Club - FriendFeed](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/wradusto/thumbnail/160) The FriendFeed Fail Whale room. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [friendfeed](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/friendfeed?ref=chrismessina.me), [fail whale](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fail%20whale?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [FriendFeed Comments WordPress Plugin - Development on a Shoestring](http://blog.slaven.net.au/wordpress-plugins/friendfeed-comments-wordpress-plugin/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![FriendFeed Comments WordPress Plugin - Development on a Shoestring](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/projosefesc/thumbnail/160) This plugin will allow you to display on your own site the comments that people make on FriendFeed about your post. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [friendfeed](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/friendfeed?ref=chrismessina.me), [plugin](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/plugin?ref=chrismessina.me), [wordpress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Feature request: OAuth in WordPress URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/feature-request-oauth-in-wordpress/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:59.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2629762893/?ref=chrismessina.me)In the past couple days, there's been a bit of a [dust-up](http://dougal.gunters.org/blog/2008/06/30/update-on-wordpress-blog-apis?ref=chrismessina.me) about some [changes](http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/7157?ref=chrismessina.me) coming to WordPress in 2.6 -- namely [disabling ATOM and XML-RPC APIs by default](http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-xmlrpc/2008-June/000231.html?ref=chrismessina.me). The [argument](http://joseph.randomnetworks.com/archives/2008/06/21/wordpress-26-to-have-xml-rpc-atompub-disabled-by-default/?ref=chrismessina.me) is that this will [make WordPress more secure out of the box](http://westi.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/making-the-default-install-more-secure/?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- but the question is [at what cost](http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/512/wordpress-to-disable-remote-access?ref=chrismessina.me)? And, is there a better solution to this problem rather than disabling features and functionality (even if only a small subset of users *currently* make use of these APIs) if the changes end up being [short-sighted](http://groups.google.com/group/wp-hackers/msg/f74432c58ebf03f9?ref=chrismessina.me)? This [topic](http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-xmlrpc/2008-June/thread.html?ref=chrismessina.me#208) hit the [wp-xmlrpc mailing list](http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-xmlrpc?ref=chrismessina.me) where the conversation quickly devolved into spattering about SSL and other security related topics. [Allan Odgaard](http://wiki.macromates.com/Profiles/AllanOdgaard?ref=chrismessina.me) (creator [TextMate](http://macromates.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), as far as I can tell!) even proposed [inventing another authorization protocol](http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-xmlrpc/2008-June/000222.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Sigh. There are a number of reasons why WordPress should adopt [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- and not just because we're going to require it for [DiSo](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). Heck, [Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) already got [OAuth + AtomPub working for WordPress](http://singpolyma.net/2008/05/atompub-oauth-for-wordpress/?ref=chrismessina.me), and has completed a basic [OAuth plugin for WordPress](http://singpolyma.net/plugins/oauth/?ref=chrismessina.me). The pieces are nearly in place, not to mention the fact that OAuth will pretty much be essential if WordPress is going to adopt OpenID at some point down the road. It's also going to be quite useful if folks want to post from, say, a Google Gadget or OpenSocial application (or similar) to a WordPress blog if the XML-RPC APIs are going to be off by default (given [Google's wholesale embrace of OAuth](http://blog.oauth.net/2008/06/30/oauth-at-the-center-of-googles-open-web-technologies/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Now, fortunately, folks within Automattic are [supportive of OAuth](http://twitter.com/photomatt/statuses/848088633?ref=chrismessina.me), including Matt and Lloyd. There are plenty of benefits to going down this path, not to mention the ability to scope third party applications to certain permissions -- like letting Facebook see your private posts but not edit or create new ones -- or authorizing desktop applications to post new entries or upload photos or videos without having to remember your username and password (instead you'd type in your blog address -- and it would discover the authorization endpoints using [XRDS-Simple](http://xrds-simple.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- [Eran](http://www.hueniverse.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) has more on [discovery](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2008/06/explaining-disc.html?ref=chrismessina.me): [Magic](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2008/07/beginners-guide.html?ref=chrismessina.me), [People vs. Machines](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2008/07/beginners-gui-1.html?ref=chrismessina.me#more)). Anyway, WordPress and OAuth are natural complements, and with popular support and momentum behind the protocol, it's [tragic](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/lastfm%5Flaunches%5Fapi%5F20.php?ref=chrismessina.me) to see [needless](http://protocol7.com/archives/2008/06/29/lastfm-does-rest-api-fail/?ref=chrismessina.me) [reinvention](http://www.last.fm/api/authspec?ref=chrismessina.me) when so many modern applications [have the same problem of delegated authorization](http://groups.google.com/group/diso-project/browse%5Fthread/thread/609d1e1bfc2aca25/6215189b0ad655b4??ref=chrismessina.me#6215189b0ad655b4). I see this is a tremendous opportunity for both WordPress and OAuth and am looking forward to discussing this opportunity -- at least consideration for WordPress 2.7 -- and [tonight's meetup](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/854418/?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- for which I'm now late! Doh! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Steve Ivy](http://redmonk.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-02 18:44:37 "The pieces are nearly in place, not to mention the fact that OAuth will pretty much be essential if WordPress is going to adopt OpenID at some point down the road." What does this mean, Chris? I mean, there's already OpenID for WP... **[Joseph Scott](http://joseph.randomnetworks.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-02 22:15:13 I still need to beef up on some of the OAuth nuts and bolts, but from what I've seen, you can put me in the camp of people at Automattic interested in seeing OAuth in WordPress 2.7. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-03 12:33:03 @Steve: I'm talking about WordPress.com accepting OpenID signins -- not WordPress.org, although in order to API usage, .org will also need OAuth. @Joseph -- didn't realize you were at Automattic...! Great news then! ;) ### Bookmarks for Jul 01 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jul-01/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:58.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### [Highlight Author Comments](http://rmarsh.com/plugins/highlight-comments/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![ Highlight Author Comments](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/fuxugistu/thumbnail/160) Highlight Author Comments automatically displays comments made by a post’s author in a distinctive style with no need to edit your template files, etc. All you do is provide a snippet of CSS styling to be applied to author posts. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [wordpress](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me), [plugin](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/plugin?ref=chrismessina.me), [comments](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/comments?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Terrell Russell: This Old Network : Summer of ‘08 - Part II](http://weblog.terrellrussell.com/2008/07/summer-of-08-part-ii/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Terrell Russell: This Old Network : Summer of ‘08 - Part II](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/qonixi/thumbnail/160) "Within a week or so of the Hackfest, I found myself headed back up into the city for dinner at the DiSo / Drupal meetup. The conversations were not as directed as I’d hoped, but I met some interesting people. Chris Messina, Will Norris and Kieran Lal held court at one end of the table, and I talked with Andrius Kulikauskas, Neil Drumm and Dan Kurtz down on the other end. I think DiSo is poised to become as big as microformats are today - and eventually become the standard for how we’ll interact as individuals (I’d say “online” here, but I think it’s more than that). I cannot wait to have my people in my pocket - XMPP and OAuth enabled - making recommendations and filtering out the noise. Please get here soon." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [diso](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/diso?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Life’s Work - A Shared Office Is a Great Escape From Working at Home - NYTimes.com](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/26/fashion/26Work.html?%5Fr=4&ref=fashion&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) ![Life’s Work - A Shared Office Is a Great Escape From Working at Home - NYTimes.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/yirustura/thumbnail/160) Co-working spaces are a cross between home, work and Internet-equipped cafe, and are based on the hard-won realization that while avoiding an office is liberating, it’s also energizing to have one to which you can go. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [coworking](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/coworking?ref=chrismessina.me), [press](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/press?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Bookmarks for Jun 30 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-jun-30/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:44.000Z A daily collection of linky goodness. #### [oohEmbed.com](http://oohembed.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![oohEmbed.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/buyiza/thumbnail/160) oohEmbed is an oEmbed compatible provider of HTML embed codes for various web sites. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [oembed](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oembed?ref=chrismessina.me), [proxy](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/proxy?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Yahoo! Design Stencil Kit v1.0 (Yahoo! Developer Network blog)](http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2008/06/yahoo%5Fdesign%5Fst.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Yahoo! Design Stencil Kit v1.0 (Yahoo! Developer Network blog)](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/vuduqide/thumbnail/160) "Yahoo! this week released a design stencil kit to help designers quickly create mockups for specifications and user testing. Stencil objects have specific meaning and can be incorporated into a design to symbolize a specific kind of module, interaction, or even aesthetic." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [yahoo](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yahoo?ref=chrismessina.me), [yui](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/yui?ref=chrismessina.me), [design patterns](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design%20patterns?ref=chrismessina.me), [stencils](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/stencils?ref=chrismessina.me), [wireframing](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wireframing?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [web design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/web%20design?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [What to do on an OAuth Permission page - IIW](http://iiw.idcommons.net/index.php/What%5Fto%5Fdo%5Fon%5Fan%5FOAuth%5FPermission%5Fpage?ref=chrismessina.me) ![What to do on an OAuth Permission page - IIW](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/kochunuyesc/thumbnail/160) "Yahoo did some usability studies to find out how to best explain the OAuth process to regular users. Some of the Yahoo learnings are quite good, and I will incorporate them into Gaia's OAuth flow." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [usability](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/usability?ref=chrismessina.me), [interface](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/interface?ref=chrismessina.me), [iiw](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/iiw?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [XRDS Simple | drupal.org](http://drupal.org/project/xrds%5Fsimple?ref=chrismessina.me) ![XRDS Simple | drupal.org](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/pranawu/thumbnail/160) This module is a simple implementation of the XRDS-Simple spec. XRDS-Simple is an important part of the DiSo project ( http://diso-project.org/) and used by OpenID and OAuth for service discovery. The module exposes a single hook\_xrds() that can be used by other modules to announce services via XRDS. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [drupal](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/drupal?ref=chrismessina.me), [xrds](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/xrds?ref=chrismessina.me), [xrds-simple](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/xrds-simple?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Embracing OpenID - PaulStamatiou.com](http://paulstamatiou.com/2008/06/04/embracing-openid?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Embracing OpenID - PaulStamatiou.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/vrosihach/thumbnail/160) "I first heard about OpenID in 2005 and have kept hearing about it more and more since then. I never actually jumped on the bandwagon and started using it though - until now." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me), [clickpass](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/clickpass?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Shift](http://blog.shiftosx.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Shift](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/kidopo/thumbnail/160) The Shift project was started in May 2008 as a fork of the apparently defunct CocoaMySQL project. The goal of Shift is to enhance upon the CocoaMySQL project and provide Mac OS X users with a completely free and elegant way to handle their MySQL databases. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [mysql](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mysql?ref=chrismessina.me), [macosx](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/macosx?ref=chrismessina.me), [application](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/application?ref=chrismessina.me), [open source](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/open%20source?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [beSpacific: Secure web browsing with the OP web browser](http://www.bespacific.com/mt/archives/018363.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![beSpacific: Secure web browsing with the OP web browser](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/riscepipith/thumbnail/160) "Current web browsers are plagued with vulnerabilities, providing hackers with easy access to computer systems via browser-based attacks. Browser security efforts that retrofit existing browsers have had limited success because the design of modern browsers is fundamentally flawed. To enable more secure web browsing, we design and implement a new browser, called the OP web browser, that attempts to improve the state-of-the-art in browser security. Our overall design approach is to combine operating system design principles with formal methods to design a more secure web browser by drawing on the expertise of both communities. Our overall design philosophy is to partition the browser into smaller subsystems and make all communication between subsystems simple and explicit. At the core of our design is a small browser kernel that manages the browser subsystems and interposes on all communications between them to enforce our new browser security features." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [site-specific browsers](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/site-specific%20browsers?ref=chrismessina.me), [security](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/security?ref=chrismessina.me), [privacy](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/privacy?ref=chrismessina.me), [research](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/research?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Coding Horror: Please Give Us Your Email Password](http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001128.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Coding Horror: Please Give Us Your Email Password](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/keqostudith/thumbnail/160) "If even a fraction of the coding effort that regularly goes into convincing people to cough up their email or website login credentials went into finding other, more reasonable solutions to this problem -- perhaps we could have arrived at a saner solution by now. And we can start by taking obnoxious, utterly inappropriate credential requests completely off the table." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [password anti-pattern](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/password%20anti-pattern?ref=chrismessina.me), [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [jeff atwood](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/jeff%20atwood?ref=chrismessina.me), [passwords](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/passwords?ref=chrismessina.me), [security](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/security?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [DESKTOPOGRAPHY](http://desk08.customize.org/exhibition/4?ref=chrismessina.me) ![DESKTOPOGRAPHY](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/zozeqonas/thumbnail/160) DESKTOPOGRAPHY wallpapers Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [desktops](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/desktops?ref=chrismessina.me), [design](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/design?ref=chrismessina.me), [wallpaper](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/wallpaper?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [In the wild snapshot#3: DiSo profile plugin ÂŤ Ungeek DaPo](http://ungeekdapo.wordpress.com/2008/06/02/in-the-wild-snapshot3-diso-profile-plugin/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![In the wild snapshot#3: DiSo profile plugin ÂŤ Ungeek DaPo](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/dudapo/thumbnail/160) Good interview with Weber about his work on the DiSo Profile plugin. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [diso](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/diso?ref=chrismessina.me), [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [diso-profile](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/diso-profile?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Finding Freedom at Work - TIME](http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1810690,00.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Finding Freedom at Work - TIME](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/prejastok/thumbnail/160) "Each person is free to do whatever they want, whenever they want, as long as the work gets done." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [rowe](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/rowe?ref=chrismessina.me), [working](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/working?ref=chrismessina.me), [work](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/work?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [XEN 1.0 profile](http://xen.adactio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![XEN 1.0 profile](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/gegicivu/thumbnail/160) XEN is an extension of XFN. Negative relationship terms have been omitted from XFN by design. The authors of XFN think that such values would not serve a positive ends and thus made the deliberate decision to leave them out. Please see the XFN home page for more information about XFN. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [xen](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/xen?ref=chrismessina.me), [microformats](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/microformats?ref=chrismessina.me), [xfn](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/xfn?ref=chrismessina.me), [enemies](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/enemies?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Make OpenID go away. | nathanpbell.com](http://nathanpbell.com/blog/make-openid-go-away/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Make OpenID go away. | nathanpbell.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/jezok/thumbnail/160) "There seems to be broad consensus among both OpenID supporters and detractors: OpenID is confusing to use and that for it to have any hope of success OpenID needs to find ways to fade to the background." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me), [interface](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/interface?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [InfoQ: OAuth Gaining Momentum](http://www.infoq.com/news/2008/06/oauth%5Fspring?ref=chrismessina.me) ![InfoQ: OAuth Gaining Momentum ](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/zishechutec/thumbnail/160) OAuth, an open standard for access delegation, is gaining momentum with a number of implementations including one for Spring Security. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [jeff atwood](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/jeff%20atwood?ref=chrismessina.me), [password anti-pattern](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/password%20anti-pattern?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Aza’s Thoughts Âť Blog Archive Âť Firefox Mobile Concept Video](http://azarask.in/blog/post/firefox-mobile-concept-video/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Aza’s Thoughts Âť Blog Archive Âť Firefox Mobile Concept Video](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/misazithi/thumbnail/160) A concept video for the Firefox Mobile Platform. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [firefox](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/firefox?ref=chrismessina.me), [mobile](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/mobile?ref=chrismessina.me), [zooming interface](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/zooming%20interface?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [SproutCore Âť home](http://www.sproutcore.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![SproutCore Âť home](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/shapaje/thumbnail/160) The Official Website of SproutCore, a javascript framework. This website contains information on how to create desktop like apps for the web. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [javascript](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/javascript?ref=chrismessina.me), [framework](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/framework?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [At the Forge - Integrating OpenID](http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10104?ref=chrismessina.me) ![At the Forge - Integrating OpenID](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/vemanoqisc/thumbnail/160) Integrate OpenID into any Rails application, using off-the-shelf libraries and a bit of custom code. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [openid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/openid?ref=chrismessina.me), [ruby](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ruby?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Anivers :: a Free Quality Font from exljbris](http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/anivers.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Anivers :: a Free Quality Font from exljbris](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/yicagaf/thumbnail/160) exljbris is Jos Buivenga's Free Quality Font Foundry. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [font](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/font?ref=chrismessina.me), [type](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/type?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [OAuth - devdefined-tools - Google Code](http://code.google.com/p/devdefined-tools/wiki/OAuth?ref=chrismessina.me) ![OAuth - devdefined-tools - Google Code](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/bopakekuc/thumbnail/160) DevDefined.OAuth - an OAuth consumer and provider implementation for .Net Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [.net](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/.net?ref=chrismessina.me), [c sharp](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/c%20sharp?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Twitter Hashtags – Userscripts.org](http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/24208?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Twitter Hashtags – Userscripts.org](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/twivitowej/thumbnail/160) Auto-Links Twitter Hashtags Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [greasemonkey](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/greasemonkey?ref=chrismessina.me), [hashtags](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/hashtags?ref=chrismessina.me), [userscript](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/userscript?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Hueniverse: Explaining Discovery](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2008/06/explaining-disc.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Hueniverse: Explaining Discovery](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/yujuyiqe/thumbnail/160) Great write up of how discovery fits into this generation of distributed web technologies. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [xrds](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/xrds?ref=chrismessina.me), [discovery](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/discovery?ref=chrismessina.me), [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [SourceForge.net: SupraBrowser](http://sourceforge.net/projects/suprabrowser?ref=chrismessina.me) ![SourceForge.net: SupraBrowser](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/whothochusceg/thumbnail/160) This is the "Eclipse of Web Browsers", a secure social web browsing environment that runs off of your own highly personal and private data store. Written primarily in Java, it uses Gecko as its web runtime, and has a back-end driven by MySQL and Lucene Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [suprabrowser](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/suprabrowser?ref=chrismessina.me), [eclipse](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/eclipse?ref=chrismessina.me), [java](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/java?ref=chrismessina.me), [site-specific browsers](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/site-specific%20browsers?ref=chrismessina.me), [open source](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/open%20source?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [SproutCore + Fluid = Wonderful Synergy | /dev/random](http://mcdevzone.com/2008/06/19/sproutcore-fluid-wonderful-synergy/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![SproutCore + Fluid = Wonderful Synergy | /dev/random](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/fevurijurd/thumbnail/160) "Write your application in SproutCore, deploy it on your web site, and build a Fluid desktop app that your users can double-click from their desktop to run your web-based application just as if it actually was a desktop app." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [sproutcore](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/sproutcore?ref=chrismessina.me), [fluid](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/fluid?ref=chrismessina.me), [apple](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/apple?ref=chrismessina.me), [site-specific browsers](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/site-specific%20browsers?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [blog.reddit -- what's new on reddit: reddit goes open source](http://blog.reddit.com/2008/06/reddit-goes-open-source.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![blog.reddit -- what's new on reddit: reddit goes open source](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/slustaveb/thumbnail/160) reddit goes open source! Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [open source](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/open%20source?ref=chrismessina.me), [reddit](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/reddit?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Don Park's Daily Habit - Visual Security: 9-block IP Identification](http://www.docuverse.com/blog/donpark/2007/01/18/visual-security-9-block-ip-identification?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Don Park's Daily Habit - Visual Security: 9-block IP Identification](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/sleqagiw/thumbnail/160) A neat trick for identifying people by visualizing IP addresses. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [metoday](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/metoday?ref=chrismessina.me), [avatar](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/avatar?ref=chrismessina.me), [ip verification](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/ip%20verification?ref=chrismessina.me), [gylph](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gylph?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Augmented Information Assimilation: Social and Algorithmic Web Aids for the Information Long Tail](http://videolectures.net/chi08%5Fevans%5Faia/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Augmented Information Assimilation: Social and Algorithmic Web Aids for the Information Long Tail](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/steshuthe/thumbnail/160) This study examines how users integrate new World Wide Webservices, such as social bookmarking, with everyday information assimilation practices. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [brynn evans](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/brynn%20evans?ref=chrismessina.me), [lectures](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/lectures?ref=chrismessina.me), [social search](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/social%20search?ref=chrismessina.me), [information assimilation](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/information%20assimilation?ref=chrismessina.me), [chi 2008](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/chi%202008?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [The Adventures of Cindy Li | OAuth](http://www.cindyli.com/site/comments/oauth/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![The Adventures of Cindy Li | OAuth](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/cluchapubet/thumbnail/160) Cindy Li's story of designing the OAuth tshirt. Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Google data-sharing gets authentication option | Tech news blog - CNET News.com](http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784%5F3-9979424-7.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Google data-sharing gets authentication option | Tech news blog - CNET News.com](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/choscarasti/thumbnail/160) "Google now supports the open OAuth standard for sharing data through its Google Data interface, a move that could make it easier to tap into information stored at Google property." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me), [gdata](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/gdata?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [SmugMug loves OAuth](http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/2008/06/11/smugmug-loves-oauth/?ref=chrismessina.me) ![SmugMug loves OAuth](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/mumamopi/thumbnail/160) SmugMug announces support for OAuth! Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [smugmug](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/smugmug?ref=chrismessina.me), [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me) #### [Mashups: Google's Adoption Makes oAuth a Must Have for All Apps - ReadWriteWeb](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google%5Foauth.php?ref=chrismessina.me) ![Mashups: Google's Adoption Makes oAuth a Must Have for All Apps - ReadWriteWeb ](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/supezuk/thumbnail/160) "We're very excited that Google has taken this step to un-silo our data and support the mutually beneficial ecosystem of mashup developers and users. We're very happy too for the community of oAuth supporters, who have done a great job building and spreading something so needed around the web. Today is a good day for the future of the web." Rating: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Tags: [google](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/google?ref=chrismessina.me), [oauth](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/tags/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me) [View all my bookmarks on Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me) ### The Social Web TV pilot episode URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-social-web-tv-pilot-episode/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:59.000Z [http://www.viddler.com/player/2cf46be8/](http://www.viddler.com/player/2cf46be8/?ref=chrismessina.me) My buddies [John McCrea](http://therealmccrea.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Joseph Smarr](http://www.josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) have started up a show called [The Social Web](http://thesocialweb.tv/?ref=chrismessina.me) and have released the [pilot episode](http://socialwebtv.typepad.com/blog/2008/06/the-pilot-talk.html?ref=chrismessina.me), [featuring](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/336851.html?ref=chrismessina.me) [David Recordon](http://www.davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) on the [hubbub](http://www.techmeme.com/080617/p120?ref=chrismessina.me#a080617p120) between Google and Facebook following last week's [Supernova Conference](http://www.supernova2008.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). As they point out, things are changing and happening so fast in the industry that a show like this, that cuts through the FUD and marketing hype is really necessary. I hope to participate in future episodes -- and would love to hear suggestions or recommendations for topics or guests for upcoming episodes. Here's [the FriendFeed room](http://friendfeed.com/rooms/the-social-web-tv?ref=chrismessina.me) Dave mentioned. ### Announcing Emailtoid: mapping email addresses to OpenIDs URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/announcing-emailtoid-mapping-email-addresses-to-openids/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:58.000Z [](http://emailtoid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)The other night at [Beer and Blog in Portland](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/06/20/three-reasons-to-attend-beer-and-blog-vidoop-vidoop-and-well-vidoop/?ref=chrismessina.me), fellow Vidooper [Michael T Richardson](http://gobyairship.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [announced](http://www.beerandblog.com/trying-new-location-round-2-of-vidoopers-special-announcement-oh-my/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [launched a new service](http://blog.vidoop.com/archives/130?ref=chrismessina.me) that I'm both excited and a little apprehensive about. The service is called [Emailtoid](http://emailtoid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), and while I prefer to pronounce is "email-toyed", others might pronounce it "email two eye-dee". And depending on your pronunciation, you might realize that this service is about using an email address as an ID — specifically an [*OpenID*](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). This is [not a new idea](http://www.majordojo.com/2007/02/what-openid-needs.php?ref=chrismessina.me), and it's one that been [debated](http://wiki.openid.net/Debating%5FEmails%5Fas%5F1st-Class%5For%5F2nd-Class%5FCitizens?ref=chrismessina.me) and [discussed](http://openid.net/pipermail/specs/2008-April/thread.html?ref=chrismessina.me) in the OpenID community [an](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2008/01/dear-mailman-pl.html?ref=chrismessina.me) [awful](http://blog.plasticmind.com/social-networking/sxsw-a-critical-look-at-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) [lot](http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2007/09/28/Email-addresses-your-OpenID-via-DNS?ref=chrismessina.me), which culminated in [a rough outline of how it might work](http://brad.livejournal.com/2357444.html?ref=chrismessina.me) by [Brad Fitzpatrick](http://bradfitz.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) following the [Social Graph FOO Camp](http://sgfoocamp08.pbwiki.com/FrontPage?ref=chrismessina.me) this past spring, and that [David Fuelling](http://www.sappenin.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) turned into an [early draft spec](http://www.sappenin.com/openid/ext/oet/openid-email-transform-extension-1%5F0.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Well, we looked at this work and this discussion and felt that sooner or later, in spite of [all](http://kveton.com/blog/2008/01/03/urls-are-people-too-and-service-end-points/?ref=chrismessina.me) the [benefits](http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/01/urls-are-people-too.html?ref=chrismessina.me) of using actual [URLs for identity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/01/03/its-high-time-we-moved-to-url-based-identifiers/?ref=chrismessina.me), that someone needed to take a lead and actually build out this concept so we have something real to banter about. The pragmatic reality is that many people are comfortable using email addresses as their identity online for signing up to new services; furthermore, many, many more people have email addresses who don't also have URLs or homepages that they call their own (or can readily identify). And forcing people to learn *yet another form of identifier for the web* to satisfy the design of a protocol for [arguably marginal value](http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001121.html?ref=chrismessina.me) with a [lesser user experience](http://warpspire.com/features/open-id/?ref=chrismessina.me) also doesn't make sense. Put another way: the limitations of the technology should not be forced on end users, especially when it doesn't need to be. And that's why Emailtoid is a necessary experiment towards advancing identity on the web. ### How it works Emailtoid is a very simple service, and in fact is designed for obsolescence. It's meant as a fallback for now, enabling relying parties to accept email addresses as identifiers without requiring the generation of a new local password and without requiring the address owner to give up or reveal their existing email credentials (otherwise known as the "[password anti-pattern](http://adactio.com/journal/1357?ref=chrismessina.me)"). [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2598734381/?ref=chrismessina.me)The flow [works like this](http://emailtoid.net/developers/?ref=chrismessina.me): 1. Users enter either an OpenID or email address into a typical [OpenID input field](http://erp.gobyairship.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). For the purpose of this flow, we'll presume an email address is used. 2. The relying party splits email addresses at the '@' symbol into the username and the domain, generating a directed identity request to the email domain. If an XRDS, YADIS or [XRDS-Simple](http://xrds-simple.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) document is discovered at the domain, the typical OpenID flow is invoked. 3. If no discovery document is found, the **service falls back to Emailtoid** (sending a request like http://emailtoid.net/mapper?email=jane@example.com), where users verify that they own the supplied email addresses by providing their one-time access token that Emailtoid mailed to them. 4. At this point, users may optionally associate an existing OpenID with their email address, or use the OpenID auto-generated by Emailtoid. Emailtoid is not intended to serve as a full-featured OpenID provider, and we encourage using an OpenID from a third-party OpenID provider. 5. In the case where users supply and verify their own OpenID, Emailtoid will create a 302 HTTP redirect removing Emailtoid from future interactions completely. Should an email provider supply a discovery document after an Emailtoid mapping has been made, the new mapping will take precedence. ### Opportunities and issues The drive behind Emailtoid, again, is to reduce the friction of OpenID by reusing familiar identifiers (i.e. email addresses). Clearly the challenges of achieving OpenID adoption [are not simply technological](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2008/01/addressing-open.html?ref=chrismessina.me), and to a great degree rely on how the user experience needs to [become more streamlined](http://nathanpbell.com/blog/make-openid-go-away/?ref=chrismessina.me) and deliver on the promise of greater security and convenience. Therefore, if a service advertises that they support signing in with an email address, they must keep that promise. Unfortunately, until all email providers do some kind of local resolution and OpenID authentication, we will need a centralized mapper such as Emailtoid to provide the fallback mapping. And therein lies the rub, defeating some of the distributed design of OpenID. If anything, Emailtoid is intended to drive forward a [conversation](http://getsatisfaction.com/vidoop/products/vidoop%5Femailtoid?ref=chrismessina.me) about the experience of OpenID, and about how we can make the protocol compatible with, or complementary to, existing and well-known means of identifying oneself on the web. Is it a final solution? Probably not -- but it's up, it's running, it works and it forces us now to look critically at the question of emails as OpenIDs, now that we can actually experience the flow, and the feeling, of entering an email address into an OpenID box without ever having to enter, or create, another unnecessary password. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Luigi Montanez](http://luigimontanez.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-22 12:01:48 Do any OpenID providers allow for an "Embedded Sign Up" functionality to Relying Parties? That is, if I'm a site that wants to accept OpenID, I give my new users the opportunity to go through the normal site registration process, but in reality give them an OpenID at the end of the process. I quickly blogged what the process would look like here: [Social Graph Theory](http://www.socialgraphtheory.com/2008/a-design-pattern-for-embedding-openid-creation-during-site-registration?ref=chrismessina.me) **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-22 12:09:49 Have you checked out [Clickpass.com](http://clickpass.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)? **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » Blogging on June 22nd, 2008](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/06/blogging-on-june-22nd-2008?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-22 12:14:26 \[...\] EmailToID, SoundCloud, SocialNotes, Acquia (commercial Drupal), Hakia, \[...\] **[Backdrifter: Emailtoid: A Tour in Screenshots](http://www.backdrifter.com/2008/06/22/emailtoid-a-tour-in-screenshots/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-22 16:12:29 \[...\] Toward that end, Michael Richardson of Vidoop has launched Emailtoid, a service which will allow people to sign on using email addresses rather than URLs. Chris Messina has the complete rundown. \[...\] **[Silicon Florist’s links arrangement for June 22 » Silicon Florist](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/06/22/silicon-florists-links-arrangement-for-june-22/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-22 22:59:39 \[...\] Announcing Emailtoid: mapping email addresses to OpenIDs | FactoryCity Chris Messina writes “The other night at Beer and Blog in Portland, fellow Vidooper Michael T Richardson announced and launched a new service that I’m both excited and a little apprehensive about.” \[...\] **[EmailtoID??email??OpenID | SilenceWolf](http://www.silencewolf.com/2008/06/23/emailtoid%ef%bc%9a%e7%94%a8email%e7%99%bb%e5%bd%95openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-23 00:16:11 \[...\] ??EmailtoID?OpenID???????????????????????????????OpenID??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? \[...\] **[links for 2008-06-23 « Breyten’s Dev Blog](http://breyten.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/links-for-2008-06-23/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-23 03:30:52 \[...\] Announcing Emailtoid: mapping email addresses to OpenIDs (tags: citizen-centric web digital identity technology usability building emailtoid openid) \[...\] **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-23 06:55:22 Biggest issue I have with this is that currently: user@example.com get's mapped to http://user@example.com/ Which is a valid URL and may in fact be their OpenID. This re-mapping idea changes this a lot. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-23 09:10:32 @Stephen: AFAIK, the OpenID spec forbids using http://user@example.com as a valid OpenID, so this doesn't change anything. **[Pascal Van Hecke](http://pascal.vanhecke.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-25 04:34:39 If this idea catches on, existing openid providers will compete for relying parties to choose them (i.e. the openid providers) as fallback service... probably by including it in an affiliate program (such as the one that myopenid already has in place). **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-25 06:47:44 @Pascal: Well, that's a huge problem actually -- that's like having competing DNS providers! Again, ideally the email providers will adopt the discovery solution -- or will themselves delegate/redirect to a third-party OpenID provider. Having multiple email-to-OpenID mappers would actually be pretty bad and one of the reasons why Emailtoid is potentially problematic as a privately-run project... However, it pushes the idea out there and forces us to confront any potential technical issues with using email addresses as OpenIDs. AFAIC in that case, it's a useful exercise and service until email providers get hip to providing identity on their own. **[Enterprise Messaging](http://www.mithi.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-27 03:37:17 Sounds like an interesting service. **[OpenID per E-Mail at notizBlog - a private weblog written by Matthias Pfefferle](http://notizblog.org/2008/07/03/openid-per-e-mail/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-03 10:00:30 \[...\] (via) ÂŤ Wie viel Portabilitiy brauchen wir noch? \[...\] **[Vincent](http://vinnl.nl/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-08 13:26:44 It does sound like an interesting idea, provided that, instead of redirecting the user to emailtoid, you send an email out to the user yourself and provide him with an OpenID based on a code in that email. **[Independent study on OpenID awareness using Mechanical Turk | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/11/12/independent-study-on-openid-awareness-using-mechanical-turk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-12 21:42:45 \[...\] also that momentum to rev the protocol to accommodate email addresses in OpenID is just now gaining \[...\] **[OpenID usability is not an oxymoron | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/10/28/openid-usability-is-not-an-oxymoron/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-04 12:47:53 \[...\] is my opinion that enabling an email address to be used as a “hint” that resolves to a valid OpenID URL is a necessary step to dislodge one of the main nettles \[...\] ### A conversation about social network interop and activity stream relevance URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/a-conversation-about-social-network-interop-and-activity-stream-relevance/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:57.000Z \[vimeo http://www.vimeo.com/1155577 w=500&h=377\] [Brian Oberkirch](http://brianoberkirch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) captured [some video](http://www.vimeo.com/1155577?ref=chrismessina.me) today of a conversation between him, [David Recordon](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and myself at [GSP East](http://en.oreilly.com/gspeast2008/?ref=chrismessina.me) about [social network interop](http://www.ownyouridentity.com/2008/06/11/social-network-interop-chat-gsp-east/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-281), among other things. Hot on the heals on [my last post](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/06/11/adding-richness-to-activity-streams/?ref=chrismessina.me), this conversation is rather timely! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Clearing the Backlog of Stuff to Read | Oliver Thylmann's Thoughts](http://blog.thylmann.net/2008/06/15/clearing-the-backlog-of-stuff-to-read/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-15 02:39:44 \[...\] is a very good discussion on the future of social media right here. I do fully believe in the openness part, and it is actually the only way all the social part will \[...\] **[Defining information relevance for location based services « Geographically challenged](http://siddey.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/defining-information-relevance-for-location-based-services/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-18 04:12:54 \[...\] from people’s activity feeds. That’s certainly one requirement and you can watch a very interesting video at Chris Messina’s blog in which he discusses elements of this as they relate to social \[...\] ### Adding richness to activity streams URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/adding-richness-to-activity-streams/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:35.000Z This is a post I've wanted to do for awhile but simply haven't gotten around to it. Following my panel with Dave Recordon (Six Apart), Dave Morin (Facebook), Adam Nash (LinkedIn), Kevin Chou (Watercooler, Inc) and Sean Ammirati (ReadWriteWeb) on [Social Networks and the NEED for FEEDs](http://en.oreilly.com/gspeast2008/public/schedule/detail/3277?ref=chrismessina.me), it only seems appropriate that I would finally get this out. The basic premise is this: lifestreams, alternatively known as "activity streams", are great for discovering and exploring social media, as well as keeping up to date with friends (witness the main feature of Facebook and the [rise of FriendFeed](http://ft.com/cms/s/0/4bb053f2-364e-11dd-8bb8-0000779fd2ac.html?ref=chrismessina.me)). I suggest that, with a little effort on the publishing side, activity streams could become much more valuable by being easier for web services to consume, interpret and to provide better filtering and weighting of shared activities to make it easier for people to get access to relevant information from people that they care about, as it happens. By marking up *social activities* and *social objects*, delivered in standard feeds *with microformats*, I think we enable anyone to run a FriendFeed-like service that innovates and offers value *based on how well it understands what's going on and what's relevant*, rather than on its compatibility with any and every service. ### Contemporary example activities Here are the kinds of activities that I'm talking about (note that some services expand these with thumbnail previews): - Eddie updated his resume at LinkedIn. - Chris listened to *"I Will Possess Your Heart"* by Death Cab for Cutie on Pandora. - Brynn favorited a photo on Flickr. - Dave posted a message to Twitter via SMS. - Gary poked Kastner. - Leah bought *The Matrix* at Amazon.com. ### Prior art Both [OpenSocial](http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/docs/0.8/reference/?ref=chrismessina.me#opensocial.Activity) and [Facebook](http://developers.facebook.com/documentation.php?v=1.0&method=feed.publishActionOfUser&ref=chrismessina.me) provide APIs for creating new activities that will show up in someone's activity stream or newsfeed. Movable Type and the DiSo Project both have Action Stream plugins. And there are countless related efforts. Clearly there's existing behavior out there... but should we go about improving it, where the primary requirement is a title of an action, and little, if any, guidance on how to provide more details on a given activity? ### Components of an activity Not surprisingly, a lot of activities provide what all good news stories provide: the *who*, *what*, *when*, *where* and sometimes, *how*. Let's take a look at an example, with these components called out: e.g. *Chris started listening to a station on Pandora 3 hours ago.* - actor/subject (noun/pronoun) - action (verb) - social object (noun) - where (place) - when (time) - (how the object was created) - (expanded view of object) Now, I'll grant that not all activities follow this exact format, but the majority seem to. I should point out one alternative: collective actions. e.g. *Chris and Dave Morin are now friends.* ...but these might be better created as a post-processing step once we add the semantic salt to the original updates. Maybe. ### Class actions One of the assumptions I'm making is that there is some regularity and uniformity in activity streams. Moreover, there have emerged some basic classes of actions that appear routinely and that could be easily expressed with additional semantics. To that end, I've started [compiling such activities](http://diso-project.org/wiki/activity-streams-examples?ref=chrismessina.me) on the [DiSo wiki](http://diso-project.org/wiki/?ref=chrismessina.me). Once we have settled on the base set of classes, we can start to develop common classnames and presentation templates. To start, we have: changed status or presence, posted messages or media, rated and favorited, friended/defriended, interacted with someone (i.e. "poking"), bookmarked, and consumed something (attended..., watched..., listened to...). ### Combining activities with bundling The concept of bundling is already present in OpenSocial and works for combining multiple activities of the same kind into a group: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2565523275/?ref=chrismessina.me)This can also be used to bundle different kinds of activities for a single actor: e.g. *Chris watched The Matrix, uploaded five photos, attended an event and became friends with Dave.* From a technical perspective, bundling provides a mechanism for [batching](http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=788&ref=chrismessina.me) service-to-service operations, as defined in [PaceBatch](http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceBatch?ref=chrismessina.me). Bundling is also useful for presenting paged or "continued..." activities, as Facebook and FriendFeed do. ### Advanced uses I'd like to describe two advanced uses that inherit from my initial proposal for Twitter Hashtags: filtering and creating a distributed track-like service. In the DiSo model, we use (*will use*) AtomPub (and someday XMPP) to push new activities to people who have decided to follow different people. Because the model is push-based, activities are delivered as they happen, to anyone who has subscribed to receive them. On the receiving end, this means that we can filter based on any number of criteria, such as actor, activity type, content of the activity (as in keywords or tags), age of the action, location or how an activity was created (was this message auto-generated from Brightkite or sent in by SMS?) or any combination therein. This is useful if you want to follow certain activities of your friends more closely than others, or if you only care about, say, the screenshots I upload to Flickr but not the stuff I tweet about. Tracking can work two ways: where your own self-hosted service knows how to elevate certain types of received activities which are then passed to your messaging hub and routed appropriately... for example, when Mom checks in using Brightkite at the airport (or within some distance radius). On the other hand, individuals could choose to publish their activities to some third-party aggregator (like Summize) and do the tracking for individuals, pushing back activities that it discovers that matches criteria that you set, and then forwarding those activities to your messaging hub. It might not have the legs that a centralized service like Twitter has, especially to start, but if Technorati were looking for a new raison d'etre, this might be it. ### This is a 30,000 foot view I was scant on code in this post, but given how long it was already, I'd rather just start throwing it into the output of the activity streams being generated from the Action Streams plugins and see how live code holds up in the wild. I also don't want to confuse too many implementation details with the broader concept and need, which again is to make activity streams richer by standardizing on some specific semantics based on actual trends. I'd love feedback, more pointers to prior art, or alternative suggestions for how any of the above could be technically achieved using open technologies. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Ntino](http://semanticlifescience.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-11 21:33:09 Hi Chris, good post. To me it seems what as you proposing can be done with a simple RDF schema that incorporates the semantics you posted on the wiki. Next step is the social service developers agree to follow it with the data they send out from their APIs / web services. Currently even if there's no standardization, a life-activity stream service can deal with say 30-50 APIs (see number of services aggregated by Friendfeed) by custom-made python/perl/java code for each API. But this cannot scale up as the number of APIs increase; think about if we didn't had RSS, or to bring you an example from my own field, when trying to built bioinformatic web service workflows (essentially a mashup) where you try glue together different outputs from one API as input to the other. After all the mess was created, people try now to come up with ontologies in order to standardize the web services' communication endpoints. But I like your idea, since you propose the standardization before we get to the point within the next couple of years, of too many and much different social APIs, that we need to mashup and aggregate in activity stream - meta social services. **[Paul Stamatiou](http://skribit.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-11 23:38:25 Well put Chris. I liked when you explained the push-based portion of DiSo and being able to selectively filter which parts of a person's activity stream you follow and how closely you follow it. > This is useful if you want to follow certain activities of your friends more closely than others, or if you only care about, say, the screenshots I upload to Flickr but not the stuff I tweet about. Would you say that activity streams are almost necessary for applications that expect there to be some interactivity between its users and try to establish/identify relationships between users and their activities/fringing on semantic web? **[kael](http://openid.xmpp.za.net/base64/a2FlbEBqYWJiZXIub?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-12 00:19:30 Interesting thoughts. FriendFeed gave me also some ideas regarding social presence streams publication and aggregation. In this case, I assume everything is published in XMPP and that HTTP resources are polled by a backend service for a Pubsub publication. I had the idea of a WordPress PEP aggregator which would be a mix of the [PEP aggregator](http://spaceboyz.net:7000/?ref=chrismessina.me) and the DiSo ActionStream plugin. The WP PEP aggregator would publish [XMPP PEP events](http://wiki.jabber.org/index.php/PubSub%5Fmessage%5Ftypes?ref=chrismessina.me#PEP%5Fmessages) (user-tune, user-mood, user-activity, user-location but also user-browsing - for social bookmarking - and the others PEP events) on a dedicated page or in blog column. PEP messages could be published in real-time with a BOSH-COMET-AJAX technology (I don't know much of XMPP over HTPP) for example in a similar manner than this [Flash page that displays BBC Radio tunes](http://mibly.com/radiofall?ref=chrismessina.me). Users could decide which data to publish publicly thanks to the [Pubsub access model](http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html?ref=chrismessina.me#accessmodels). And contacts would select which streams they want to follow using the [Pubsub auto-subscribe and filtered notifications capabilities](http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html?ref=chrismessina.me#presence) or with manual subscription. There's also the great [Pubsub content-based subscription system](http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html?ref=chrismessina.me#impl-content) to consider, but mostly for other types of social presence streams. It might then be possible to mix social networks services streams with PEP ones by publishing them with new Pubsub/PEP messages types which could include specific namespaces according to services. There's also the proto-XEP [Microblogging over XMPP](http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/microblogging.html?ref=chrismessina.me) to consider, but I haven't thought much about its use. I'm not sure all types of activity streams events worth to be considered, at least that they worth a notification. One problem with all those streams is that they interrupt a lot, so it might be interesting to distinguish *"monitoring"* vs. *"notification"* ; the first would use presence, the last, messages. I'd like also to see a way to publish blog comments with XMPP but haven't found yet how to do so in a easy manner. Another interesting path to explore is the mapping of Pubsub nodes and AtomPub collections as experimented [here](http://www.defuze.org/archives/10-AtomPub-and-XMPP.html?ref=chrismessina.me), [here](http://www.defuze.org/archives/16-XMPP,-AtomPub,-headstock,-amplee-and-the-BBC.html?ref=chrismessina.me), [here](http://www.defuze.org/archives/18-XMPP,-AtomPub-and-microblogging.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and [there](http://necronomicorp.com/lab/16?ref=chrismessina.me). But this backend lacks some RDF or at least search capabilities, though I'm not sure. Hopefully, [new Jabber GUI](http://el-tramo.be/blog/psi-jaiku?ref=chrismessina.me) will be designed to display the streams in a ergonomic manner. All of this is essentially XMPP centric and lacks HTTP interfacing but I'd need to think more about this, specially how to bootstrap fetched API data with Pubsub. It's also a 30,000 feet view but I hope it could give more ideas to others. I had these ideas after I read about FriendFeed chat-rooms which made me think to the [pubsub#replyroom](http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html?ref=chrismessina.me#impl-association) option. And BTW, [Jabber-Feed, an ATOM Pubsub WP plugin](http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/jabber-feed/?ref=chrismessina.me) would probably be useful for DiSo. **[kael](http://openid.xmpp.za.net/kael@jabber.org?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-12 00:24:52 Interesting thoughts. FriendFeed gave me also some ideas regarding social presence streams publication and aggregation. In this case, I assume everything is published in XMPP and that HTTP resources are polled by a backend service for a Pubsub publication. I had the idea of a WordPress PEP aggregator which would be a mix of the [PEP aggregator](http://spaceboyz.net:7000/?ref=chrismessina.me) and the DiSo ActionStream plugin. The WP PEP aggregator would publish [XMPP PEP events](http://wiki.jabber.org/index.php/PubSub%5Fmessage%5Ftypes?ref=chrismessina.me#PEP%5Fmessages) (user-tune, user-mood, user-activity, user-location but also user-browsing - for social bookmarking - and the others PEP events) on a dedicated page or in blog column. PEP messages could be published in real-time with a BOSH-COMET-AJAX technology (I don't know much of XMPP over HTPP) for example in a similar manner than this [Flash page that displays BBC Radio tunes](http://mibly.com/radiofall?ref=chrismessina.me). Users could decide which data to publish publicly thanks to the [Pubsub access model](http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html?ref=chrismessina.me#accessmodels). And contacts would select which streams they want to follow using the [Pubsub auto-subscribe and filtered notifications capabilities](http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html?ref=chrismessina.me#presence) or with manual subscription. There's also the great [Pubsub content-based subscription system](http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html?ref=chrismessina.me#impl-content) to consider, but mostly for other types of social presence streams. **[Richard Marr](http://richmarr.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-12 02:09:57 Good post. It'd also be interesting (for me at least) to look at how to manage varying expectations of privacy for different types of activity. **[Engin Erdogan](http://xdiscipline.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-12 10:20:22 Hi Chris, It is interesting to think about a standardized way of capturing meta-data of use/activities. I believe that there might be a lot of interesting uses of this type of information. About a 1.5 months ago with a similar motivation in mind, we have started User Labor. With User Labor, we propose an open data structure, User Labor Markup Language (ULML), to outline the metrics of user participation in social web services. You can check it out at http://userlabor.org. Shoot me an email if you would like to talk more about this. **[Dan Benyamin](http://dan.benyamin.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-12 12:05:46 Fantastic Chris, count me as a sponsor of this! ;) **[Luigi Montanez](http://luigimontanez.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-12 17:40:29 It's interesting. Technological innovation has always rode on the back of standards. AC electricity at 120V. 8 bits in a byte. TCP/IP. HTTP. XML. Then in the mid 90's, the entirety of Silicon Valley seemed to have collectively thought, "We don't need anymore standards". They proceeded to build services (some awesome, some not so much), and forgot about forging standards to provide some foundation for the innovation they were doing. Since 1997, there really hasn't been a truly game-changing, market-shifting standard to come about. The closest thing I can think of is RSS, but regular folks really don't use it. The work DiSo is doing by leveraging OpenID, OAuth, Atom, XMPP, et. al. to create an infrastructure based on open standards really is quite revolutionary considering what the industry has been like since the 90's. **[Recent Links on Ma.gnolia at Fast Wonder Blog](http://fastwonderblog.com/2008/06/14/recent-links-on-magnolia-21/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-13 23:01:16 \[...\] Adding richness to activity streams | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-16 08:24:12 I'm going to suggest (as Chris has) an XHTML-compatible approach (since RSS, ATOM, XMPP, and arbitrary XML can embed XHTML data). It seems to me we have a way to represent all of this except the verbs. ie: Chris started listening to a station on [Pandora](http://pandora.com/username?ref=chrismessina.me) 3 hours ago. If more data is needed (ie, listened to a song with artist and title) - then use the correct existing format (ie, haudio) - which the parser knows is present based on the verb. **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-16 08:51:26 An example of this idea applied to Twitter by an experimental version of my actionstream plugin: `
  • tweeted, " Anti C61 images: http://www.cmcarts.ca/DRM.htm" @ 2008-06-15 22:17
    • ` **[ian kennedy](http://everwas.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-17 10:35:57 Thanks for kicking this off Chris. We've done a lot of thinking about this as well at MyBlogLog and Yahoo and look forward to contributing to this discussion to include more services. Don't forget the translation of these verbs into additional languages as well as shorter representations for mobile interfaces. One thing I would advise today is the grouping that you talk about needs a time-sensitive trigger. On MyBlogLog we group a user's tweets into hourly clusters for the first 24 hours but after that we group all tweets into daily clusters. Otherwise twitter (last.fm also shows this trait) tends to dominate the lifestream. **[Shahar Nechmad](http://blog.nuconomy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-17 10:36:55 Great post. I think this standard should include also the notion of importance. Today when you subscribe to so many activity streams, they start to get the problem with RSS - there are too many things to read. If you tweet about a new job you got, I'm sure you see this as a very important thing that is important enough to push to al your friends. While if I just tweet a remark about the game I watch now, I understand that it's not important enough to interrupt my friends activity at the moment. **[Defining information relevance for location based services - part 1 « Geographically challenged](http://siddey.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/defining-information-relevance-for-location-based-services/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-18 04:24:14 \[...\] event/activity information is structured across the multiple social networks they are using (see this article from Chris Messina for more info). Here though we’re talking more than just activities as \[...\] **[kael](http://openid.xmpp.za.net/kael@jabber.org?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-18 13:54:31 FYI, there exists a new [Ejabberd-OpenID](https://svn.process-one.net/ejabberd-modules/mod%5Fopenid/?ref=chrismessina.me) module and an [Ejabberd-AtomPub module is being written](http://logs.jabber.org/jabber@conference.jabber.org/2008-04-16.html?ref=chrismessina.me#04:59:10). They might be of interest, IMHO. BTW, the OpenID form considers that the length of my base64 OpenID URL is too long, hence the truncating on my first comment. **[Siddey](http://siddey.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-18 18:45:34 A very timely post Chris. We're soon going to see an explosion in location based services take place and players in that space would do well to heed your advice and ensure they can effectively associate stream data with real-world objects where appropriate. I think we'll see a slight shift in focus from being purely people based, i.e. the "it's all about me" social factor; to us becoming obsessed with, "tell me about..." exploration as a result of attaching contextualised geo-coded feeds to real-world objects. **[kael](http://openid.xmpp.za.net/kael@jabber.org?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-19 00:31:07 The Ejabberd-AtomPub module [has been released](http://www.cestari.info/2008/6/19/atom-pubsub-module-for-ejabberd?ref=chrismessina.me). **[Lifestream Posts & Pages for July 8th 2008 | Lifestream Blog](http://lifestreamblog.com/lifestream-posts-pages-for-july-8th-2008/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-08 22:48:41 \[...\] Adding richness to activity streams | FactoryCity - “Activity streams could become much more valuable by being easier for web services to consume, interpret and to provide better filtering and weighting of shared activities to make it easier for people to get access to relevant information” \[...\] **nippur** ¡ 2008-11-10 04:09:02 Great post, chris! The examples on your wiki hepled me to implement my own version of a primitive activity stream. i'd like to know if there are any efforts to implement this kind of plugin for joomla. So far i have seen some plugins for wordpress. Do you know of any development effort beeing made for joomla? **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-10 07:19:08 @nippur: I don't know of an activity streams plugin for Joomla and a quick Google search turned up zero related results. Perhaps an opportunity for you? ;) **[The End of Email «](http://twistedpear.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/the-end-of-email/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-06 21:58:48 \[...\] people in ways that are in some cases more effective for monitoring their peers and friends activity streams, than sending emails back and forth. People are clearly are looking for new means to manage the \[...\] ### Thoughts on dynamic privacy URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/thoughts-on-dynamic-privacy/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:56.000Z A highly touted aspect of [Facebook Connect](http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=108&ref=chrismessina.me) is the notion of "[dynamic privacy](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/05/how-should-dynamic-privacy-work?ref=chrismessina.me)": > As a user moves around the open Web, their privacy settings will follow, ensuring that users' information and privacy rules are always up-to-date. For example, if a user changes their profile picture, or removes a friend connection, this will be automatically updated in the external website. Over the course of the [Graphing Social Patterns East](http://en.oreilly.com/gspeast2008/?ref=chrismessina.me) conference [here in DC](http://brightkite.com/places/fa915881b2dcb1d4b78b2b84cddc5f61d1e7b254?ref=chrismessina.me), [Dave Morin](http://davemorin.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and others from Facebook's [Developer Platform](http://developers.facebook.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) have made many a reference to this scheme but have provided frustratingly scant detail on how it will actually work. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2570348787/?ref=chrismessina.me)In a conversation with [Brian Oberkirch](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [David Recordon](http://davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), it dawned on me that the pieces for Dynamic Privacy are already in place and that, to some degree, it seems that it's really just a matter of figuring out how to **effectively enforce policy across distributed systems in order to** [**meet user expectations**](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/832231583?ref=chrismessina.me). [MySpace](http://myspace.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) actually has made similar announcements in their [Data Availability](http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20080508006009/en?ref=chrismessina.me) approach, and if you read carefully, you can spot the fundamental rift between the OpenSocial and Facebook platforms: > Additionally, rather than updating information across the Web (e.g. default photo, favorite movies or music) for each site where a user spends time, now a user can update their profile in one place and dynamically share that information with the other sites they care about. MySpace will be rolling out a centralized location within the site that allows users to manage how their content and data is made available to third party sites they have chosen to engage with. Indeed, Recordon [wrote about this](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/05/myspaces-data-availability-is.html?ref=chrismessina.me) on O'Reilly Radar last month (**emphasis** original): > He explained that MySpace said that due to their terms of service the participating sites (e.g. Twitter) would **not be allowed to cache or store any of the profile information**. In my mind this led to the Data Availability API being structured in one of two ways: 1) on each page load Twitter makes a request to MySpace fetching the protected profile information via OAuth to then display on their site or 2) Twitter includes JavaScript which the browser then uses to fill in the corresponding profile information when it renders the page. Either case is not an example of data portability no matter how you define the term! ### Embedding vs sharing So the major difference here is in the mechanism of data delivery and how the information is "leased" or "tethered" to the original source, such that, as Morin said, "when a user deletes an item on Facebook, it gets deleted everywhere else." The approach taken by Google Gadgets, and hence OpenSocial, for the most part, has been to tether data back to the source via embedded iframes. This means that if someone deletes or changes a social object, it will be deleted or changed across OpenSocial containers, though they won't even notice the difference since they never had access to the data to begin with. The approach that seems likely from Facebook can be intuited by scouring their developer's [terms of service](http://developers.facebook.com/terms.php?ref=chrismessina.me) (**emphasis** added): > You can only cache user information for up to 24 hours to assist with performance. ... 2.A.4) Except as provided in Section 2.A.6 below, **you may not continue to use, and must immediately remove** from any Facebook Platform Application and any Data Repository in your possession or under your control, **any Facebook Properties not explicitly identified as being storable indefinitely** in the Facebook Platform Documentation **within 24 hours** after the time at which you obtained the data, or such other time as Facebook may specify to you from time to time; 2.A.5) **You may store and use indefinitely any Facebook Properties that are explicitly identified as being storable indefinitely** in the Facebook Platform Documentation; provided, however, that **except** as provided in Section 2.A.6 below, you may not continue to use, and must immediately remove from any Facebook Platform Application and any Data Repository in your possession or under your control, any such Facebook Properties: (a) if Facebook ceases to explicitly identify the same as being storable indefinitely in the Facebook Platform Documentation; (b) **upon notice from Facebook (including if we notify you that a particular Facebook User has requested that their information be made inaccessible to that Facebook Platform Application)**; or (c) upon any termination of this Agreement or of your use of or participation in Facebook Platform; 2.A.6) **You may retain copies** of Exportable Facebook Properties for such period of time (if any) as the Applicable Facebook User for such Exportable Facebook Properties may approve, **if (and only if) such Applicable Facebook User expressly approves your doing so pursuant to an affirmative "opt-in" after receiving a prominent disclosure** of (a) the uses you intend to make of such Exportable Facebook Properties, (b) the duration for which you will retain copies of such Exportable Facebook Properties and (c) any terms and conditions governing your use of such Exportable Facebook Properties (a "Full Disclosure Opt-In"); 2.B.8) Notwithstanding the provisions of Sections 2.B.1, 2.B.2 and 2.B.5 above, if (and only if) the Applicable Facebook User for any Exportable Facebook Properties expressly approves your doing so pursuant to a Full Disclosure Opt-In, **you may additionally display, provide, edit, modify, sell, resell, lease, redistribute, license, sublicense or transfer such Exportable Facebook Properties** in such manner as, and only **to the extent that, such Applicable Facebook User may approve.** This is further expanded in the platform documentation on [Storable Information](http://developers.facebook.com/documentation.php?v=1.0&doc=misc&ref=chrismessina.me): > Per the Developer Terms of Service, **you may not cache any user data for more than 24 hours, with the exception of information that is explicitly "storable indefinitely."** Only the following parameters are storable indefinitely; all other information must be requested from Facebook each time. ... The storable IDs enable you to keep unique identifiers for Facebook elements that correspond to data gathered by your application. For instance, if you collected information about a user's musical tastes, you could associate that data with a user's Facebook uid. However, note that **you cannot store any relations between these IDs, such as whether a user is attending an event. The only exception is the user-to-network relation.** I imagine that Facebook Connect will work by "leasing" or "sharing" information to remote sites and require, through agreement and compliance with their [terms](http://developers.facebook.com/terms.php?ref=chrismessina.me), to check in periodically (or to receive directives through a push mechanism) for changes to data, and then to flush caches of stored data every 24 hours or less. In either model there is still a central provider and store of the data, but the question for implementation really comes down to whether a remote site ever has direct access to the data, and if so, how long it is allowed to store it. Of note is the [OpenSocial RESTful API](http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/docs/0.8/spec.html?ref=chrismessina.me#restful), which provides a web-friendly mechanism for [addressing and defining resources](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational%5FState%5FTransfer?ref=chrismessina.me). Recordon pointed out to me that this API affords all the mechanisms necessary to implement the "leased" model of data access (rather than the embedded model), but leaves it up to the OpenSocial applications and containers to set and enforce their own data access policies. ...Which is a world of a difference from Facebook's approach to date, for which there is neither code nor a spec nor an [open discussion](http://www.ownyouridentity.com/2008/04/21/great-services-will-reframe-the-ownership-debate/?ref=chrismessina.me) about how they're thinking through the tenuous issues imbued in making decisions around data access, data control, "tethering" and "[portability](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/05/11/thoughts-on-dataportability/?ref=chrismessina.me)". While folks like [Plaxo and Yahoo are actually shipping code](http://blog.plaxo.com/archives/2008/06/plaxo%5Fand%5Ffrien%5F1.html?ref=chrismessina.me), Facebook is still posturing, assuring us to "wait and see". With something so central and so important, it's disheartening that Facebook's "Open" strategy is anything but open, and [everything less than transparent](http://www.ownyouridentity.com/2008/05/19/googles-friend-connect-transparency/?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[dave mcclure](http://500hats.typepad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-11 12:41:05 my thoughts on how to make this work, from a few weeks ago: http://500hats.typepad.com/500blogs/2008/05/memo-to-google.html "Memo to Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, & AOL: How to Turn 500M email logins into Facebook Platform & a Crapload of Revenue" basically, by constraining the # of friend list connections to the top most relevant (as determined by messaging frequency + keyword relevance), you can actually IMPROVE usability & adoption by CONSTRAINING the # of choices / friends. i don't have a strong opinion on the tools / standards / methods to get there, but the user experience should be relatively similar -- WITHOUT having to give away an email address. **[Sumeet Singh](http://www.sumeetsingh.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-13 02:08:10 Nice article. Although Facebook has been on a privacy watchlist for a long time, measures such as these are bound to contribute to a safe internet. **[Siddey](http://siddey.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-18 05:00:15 Chris, A great interview and yet again you've provided some great insights into the secret sauce behind the next generation of online social and location enabled services. It's all about context and relevance. I've also thrown my hat in the ring and attempted to break-down the elements that will define relevance for mobile location services. Let me know what you think. http://siddey.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/defining-information-relevance-for-location-based-services/ **[The Song Remains The Same » Blog Archive » The Coming Economics of Big Data](http://jpatterson.floe.tv/index.php/2008/06/23/the-coming-economics-of-big-data/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-23 19:57:02 \[...\] Data generally wants users to be able to have access to their data via third parties, but only in very limited conditions. I would classify these limitations as “artificial constraints” \[...\] ### Inventing contact schemas for fun and profit! (Ugh) URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/inventing-contact-schemas-for-fun-and-profit-ugh/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:56.000Z And then [there](http://code.google.com/apis/contacts/?ref=chrismessina.me) [were](http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb463989.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me) [three](http://developer.yahoo.com/addressbook/?ref=chrismessina.me). Today, Yahoo! [announced the public availability](http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2008/06/addressbook%5Fapi.html?ref=chrismessina.me) of their own [Address Book API](http://developer.yahoo.com/addressbook/?ref=chrismessina.me). Though [Plaxo and LinkedIn](http://therealmccrea.com/2008/06/04/yahoo-opens-address-books-plaxo-and-linkedin-already-live/?ref=chrismessina.me) have been using this API behind the scenes for a short while, today marks the first time the API is available for anyone who [registers for an App ID](http://developer.yahoo.com/wsregapp/?ref=chrismessina.me) to make use of the [*bi-directional* protocol](http://blog.plaxo.com/archives/2008/06/yahoo%5Fsync%5Fits%5F1.html?ref=chrismessina.me). The API is shielded behind Yahoo! proprietary [BBAuth](https://developer.yahoo.com/auth/?ref=chrismessina.me) protocol, which obviates the need to request Yahoo! member credentials at the time of import initiation, as seen in this screenshot from LinkedIn (from April): [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2413997687/?ref=chrismessina.me)Now, like [Joseph](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), I applaud the release of this API, as it provides one more means for individuals to have utter control and access to their friends, colleagues and contacts using a robust protocol. However, I have to lament yet more needless reinvention of contact schema. Why is this a problem? Well, as I pointed out about Facebook's approach to developing their own platform methods and formats, having to write and debug against yet another contact schema makes the "tax" of adding support for contact syncing and export increasingly onerous for sites and web services that want to better serve their customers by letting them host and maintain their address book elsewhere. This isn't just a problem that I have with Yahoo!. It's [something that I encountered last November](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/11/01/hcard-for-openid-simple-registration-and-attribute-exchange/?ref=chrismessina.me) with the [SREG](http://openid.net/specs/openid-simple-registration-extension-1%5F0.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and proposed [Attribute Exchange profile definition](http://www.axschema.org/types/?ref=chrismessina.me). And yet again when [Google announced their Contacts API](http://googledataapis.blogspot.com/2008/03/3-2-1-contact-api-has-landed.html?ref=chrismessina.me). And then *again* when [Microsoft released theirs](http://dev.live.com/blogs/devlive/archive/2008/03/25/237.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)! Over and over again we're seeing better ways of fighting the password anti-pattern flow of inviting friends to new social services, but having to implement support for countless contact schemas. **What we need is one common contacts interchange format and I strongly suggest that it inherit from vcard with allowances or extension points for contemporary trends in social networking profile data.** I've gone ahead and whipped up a [comparison matrix between the primary contact schemas](http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pSGbbhtwI4kN%5FnJ1GXeQ7Qg&ref=chrismessina.me) to demonstrate the mess we're in. Below, I have a subset of the complete matrix to give you a sense for where we're at with [OpenSocial](http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/docs/0.8/reference/?ref=chrismessina.me) (nĂŠ [GData](http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/elements.html?ref=chrismessina.me#gdContactKind)), [Yahoo Address Book API](http://developer.yahoo.com/addressbook/guide/Reference.html?ref=chrismessina.me#id363581) and Microsoft's [Windows Live Contacts API](http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb463953.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me), and include vcard ([RFC 2426](http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2426?ref=chrismessina.me)) as the cardinal format towards which subsequent schemas should converge: | | vcard | OpenSocial 0.8 | Windows Live Contacts API | Yahoo Address Book API | | ----------- | ----------------- | -------------------- | ------------------------------------------------------ | ------------------------------ | | UID | uid url | id | cid | cid | | Nickname | nickname | nickname | NickName | nickname | | Full Name | n or fn | name | NameTitle, FirstName, MiddleName, LastName, Suffix | name | | First name | n (given-name) | given\_name | FirstName | name (first) | | Last name | n (family-name) | family\_name | LastName | name (last) | | Birthday | bday | date\_of\_birth | Birthdate | birthday (day, month, year) | | Anniversary | | | Anniversary | anniversary (day, month, year) | | Gender | gender | gender | gender | | | Email | email | email | Email (ID, EmailType, Address, IsIMEnabled, IsDefault) | email | | Street | street-address | street-address | StreetLine | street | | Postal Code | postal-code | postal-code | PostalCode | zip | | City | locality | locality | | | | State | region | region | PrimaryCity | state | | Country | country-name | country | CountryRegion | country | | Latitutude | geo (latitude) | latitude | latitude | | | Longitude | geo (longitude) | longitude | longitude | | | Language | N/A | | | N/A | | Phone | tel (type, value) | phone (number, type) | Phone (ID, PhoneType, Number, IsIMEnabled, IsDefault) | phone | | Timezone | tz | time\_zone | TimeZone | N/A | | Photo | photo | thumbnail\_url | | N/A | | Company | org | organization.name | CompanyName | company | | Job Title | title, role | organization.title | JobTitle | jobtitle | | Biography | note | about\_me | | notes | | URL | url | url | URI (ID, URIType, Name, Address) | link | | Category | category, rel-tag | tags | Tag (ID, Name, ContactIDs) | | --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Todd** ¡ 2008-06-05 05:28:21 Those who can do, those who can't file for a patent, send cease & desists, ignore open standards and re-invent the wheel? **[Joseph Smarr](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 06:34:41 Well said, Chris! At Plaxo, we've had to implement and maintain support for all these disparate schemas (and more--outlook, mac, tbird, aim, etc.) so I'm painfully aware of the "tax" you're talking about. It not only impacts developers (who have to do a lot more work), it in turn hurts users, because the empirical result is that less things talk to less other things when the cost of doing so is high, and in particular when the marginal cost of supporting one-more-source doesn't ever go down. If only someone would develop a definitive open standard for sharing contact info... ;) **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 07:10:43 Totally agree. Better yet: why not just send \*actual\* vcf or hcard data in response to the API, instead of custom XML/ATOM/RSS/JSON ? **[D. Lambert](http://www.appdev.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 08:47:30 The real measuring stick here should be CRM systems. These systems have been storing contacts forever, and their schemas are generally deeper than any of these (multiple addresses, phone numbers, emails, etc). I'd love to see a real standard emerge, but I believe it's not going to gain wide acceptance if the schema can't support existing data well. I'd also like to see a field to indicate the "native" system for this user. Between that and the UID, I should be able to go back and find the original contact record in the original system of record whenever I want. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 09:18:58 @Stephen: good question. I think it's to simplify parsing and to also (in the case of hcard) make the data more lightweight. The idea is that you can go back and forth from a vcard-based protocol to hcard and so on... but we need something that looks more like an API to gain widespread adoption in various contexts (i.e. mobile, desktop)... We also need a two-way syncing protocol, and hcard just really isn't up to that task (or at least I've never seen anyone do it). @D. Lambert: I disagree. If anyone has an interest in having proprietary protocols and formats, it's CRMs that need to keep you in their silos. On the open web, we're seeing so many people wanting to connect with their friends between social networks (and inviting them from their address books) that we need something that works with those kinds of generic profiles. What we \*don't\* need is a lot of expressiveness at this stage; instead we just need to standardize on the 80% use cases and get agreement (and then adoption there) and then we can talk about expanding into other attributes. Again, the beauty of standards is that there are so many to choose from! Getting adoption around a core number of attributes is the present goal. **[Kevin Marks](http://kevinmarks.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 09:19:41 URL is url in OpenSocial - profile\_url is a special case field. OpenSocial did start with vcard, but grew based on converging fields from multiple existing social networks, and clarifying the missing or underspecified parts of vcard. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 09:22:16 @Kevin Marks: was this research or competing schemas ever made public? This would be really valuable for comparison's sake. Obviously convergence is what we're aiming for here, but I'd love, for example, to be able to use this API inside of Address Book.app, in which case vcard-compatibility would be key. Thoughts? **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » June 5th blogging - '08](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/06/june-5th-blogging-08?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 12:24:38 \[...\] Meanwhile Chris Messina has written up what it’s gonna take to create a standard for contact s... Right on to Chris - again. He’s building on his original work on AXshema - for the Attribute Exchange. Chris also brings up the importance of bi-directional protocols (which I call two-way APIs.) Now lets see if Chris’ schema can work with the effort Joseph Smarr is pushing - behind a standard approach to contacts sync. \[...\] **[An opportunity for OAuth: Jeff “CodingHorror” Atwood highlights the password anti-pattern « OAuth](http://blog.oauth.net/2008/06/05/an-opportunity-for-oauth-jeff-codinghorror-atwood-highlights-the-password-anti-pattern/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 13:48:56 \[...\] contacts on third party sites that don’t require you to hand over your credentials. Once we standardize on a basic contact schema, it will only require adoption and implementation to obviate this insecure practice. This entry \[...\] **[links for 2008-06-06 « Breyten’s Dev Blog](http://breyten.wordpress.com/2008/06/06/links-for-2008-06-06/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-06 03:32:03 \[...\] Inventing contact schemas for fun and profit! (Ugh) (tags: citizen-centric web digital identity life online microformats technology building diso address book api bbauth opensocial portable contacts vcard windows live yahoo) \[...\] **[Christopher](http://socialinteraction.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-07 16:29:13 Hey Chris, Nice breakdown! I will have to work with all these APIs at some point soon as people using what I am building will likely span all services (though I only really use one). While I could simply focus on the initial service I am interested in and then write code for each of the next ones I think it makes sense to create a read/write facade so I only need to deal with one API. To keep it cross-platform and tool independent (most of my stuff is in C) I was thiking of creating a stylesheet with the physical implemention (how/when) of the transform left up to the developer. I could use the structure offered by OpenSocial as a baseline... Does this make sense? Do you think this (the mapping stylesheet) would be something useful for the community? If so once done I could release it out into the wild for others to use. Cheers, Christopher **zooper** ¡ 2008-06-09 22:05:49 Well, this seems like a perfectly good place to propose which of the available formats are worth sitting down and evaluating. Should we draw up needs or get suggestions for the best way forward using existing solutions (but prepared to shift if it is warranted) **[Brad Hafichuk](http://brad.hafichuk.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-12 14:24:54 @joseph: Any chance that you'd be able to open-source the code so we don't all have to pay the "tax"? :D **[On Message with Ben Gross » Blog Archive » Link roundup for 6/13/08](http://www.messagingnews.com/onmessage/2008/06/13/link-roundup-for-61308/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-13 16:04:25 \[...\] Inventing contact schemas for fun and profit! (Ugh): Chris Messina writes about the potential benefits that the recently released contact APIs from Microsoft, Google, and now Yahoo! as well as the problems caused by the proliferation of new contact schemas. Messina argues that the schemas should be standardized where possible using an existing standard such as vCard. \[...\] **[Contact Mapping Schema « Social Interaction](http://socialinteraction.wordpress.com/2008/06/13/contact-mapping-schema/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-13 23:20:37 \[...\] 13, 2008 So after reading an informative post on Chris Messina’s blog I think I am going to put together an xml based mapping for the \[...\] **[Earle Martin](http://downlode.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-22 19:41:17 You should also include [the W3C's Contact schema](http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/pim/contact?ref=chrismessina.me), which has been around for almost eight years and is used in swathes of Semantic Web data. Following on from work by Norm Walsh, they also have some notes on [modelling vCards in RDF](http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns?ref=chrismessina.me). **[Nodalities » Blog Archive » This Week’s Semantic Web](http://blogs.talis.com/nodalities/2008/06/this-weeks-semantic-web-5.php?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-23 10:44:55 \[...\] Inventing contact schemas for fun and profit! (Ugh) \[...\] **[Dare Obasanjo aka Carnage4Life - Some Thoughts on Google Adopting OAuth for GData APIs](http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2008/07/02/SomeThoughtsOnGoogleAdoptingOAuthForGDataAPIs.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-02 04:53:39 \[...\] service provider has invented a different proprietary protocol for doing the same task in his post Inventing contact schemas for fun and profit! (Ugh) where he \[...\] **[Mark Wilkinson](http://dangerous-techniques.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-09 06:42:28 The thing is, vcard is a pretty hopeless starting point. There's so much ambiguity in the spec and so much that it just doesn't model properly that every application has to invent its own mechanism for representing its internal schema using vcard. As a result success rates moving contacts between applications using vcard are pretty low in my experience. I think the multiple schemas you're seeing are a response to the vacuum that vcard has created by giving the impression of being a workable standard without actually being capable of solving the problems. To give some concrete examples, \* The usual user-visible phone number and email address types (home, work, mobile, etc) aren't mapped onto vcard type values in a standard way. \* The various parts of the ADR field are not standardised and don't accurately capture international addresses. The \*order\* that the parts should be displayed in isn't even consistent across applications. \* There's no agreement about how to represent the contact data for an organization (as distinct to an individual). I mean, just have a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations The last time I looked at this stuff I came away amazed that any non-technical users manage to have any kind of success with this kind of thing. I was trying to write a script to merge together the contacts from my Series 60 Nokia phone, Evolution on Linux, Outlook and GMail, all exported in vcard format, and finished up with a fat ball of heuristics that probably only worked for the few hundred cards I was working with. vcard is probably fine if you define the 80% use-case as 'extract a list of email addresses we can spam', but as the basis for an API it falls well short. ### Parsing the "open" in Facebook's "fbOpen" platform URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/parsing-the-open-in-facebooks-fbopen-platform/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:55.000Z [![](https://factoryjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/20080603-thf19bms8kjnkumpmuwmkduwfi.png?w=302)](https://factoryjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/20080603-thf19bms8kjnkumpmuwmkduwfi.png?ref=chrismessina.me) [Yesterday](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/06/02/facebook-turns-platfrom-open-source-via-fbopen/?ref=chrismessina.me), as [expected](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/05/27/facebook-confirms-plans-to-open-source-its-platform/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Facebook revealed the code](http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=117&ref=chrismessina.me) behind their [F8 platform](http://www.facebook.com/platform), a little over a year after [its launch](http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=21&ref=chrismessina.me), offering it under the [Common Public Attribution License](http://developers.facebook.com/fbopen/cpal.html?ref=chrismessina.me). I can't help but notice the glaring addition of *Section 15: Network Use* and Exhibits A and B to the CPAL license. But I'll dive into those issues in a moment. For now it is worth reviewing Facebook's release in the context of the OSI's [definition of open source](http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd?ref=chrismessina.me); of particular interest are the first three sections: [*Free Redistribution*](http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd?ref=chrismessina.me#1), [*Source Code*](http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd?ref=chrismessina.me#2), and [*Derived Works*](http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd?ref=chrismessina.me#3). Arguably Facebook's use of the CPAL so far fits the OSI's definition. It's when we get to the [ninth attribute](http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd?ref=chrismessina.me#9) (*License Must Not Restrict Other Software*) where it becomes less clear whether Facebook is actually offering "open source" code, or is simply [diluting the term for its own gain](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505%5F3-9756733-16.html?ref=chrismessina.me), given the [attribution requirement](http://bobbickel.blogspot.com/2008/06/facebook-does-open-source-like.html?ref=chrismessina.me) imposed in Exhibit B: > Each time an Executable, Source Code or Larger Work is launched or initially run (including over a network), a display of the Attribution Information must occur on the graphic user interface employed by the end user to access such Covered Code (which may include a splash screen). In other words, any derivative work cleft from the rib of Facebook [must visibly bear the mark](http://ostatic.com/163756-blog/cpalss-whats-thatss?ref=chrismessina.me) of the "Initial Developer", namely, Facebook, Inc., and include the following: > Attribution Copyright Notice: Copyright Š 2006-2008 Facebook, Inc. > Attribution Phrase (not exceeding 10 words): Based on Facebook Open Platform > Attribution URL: [http://developers.facebook.com/fbopen](http://developers.facebook.com/fbopen?ref=chrismessina.me) > Graphic Image as provided in the Covered Code: [http://developers.facebook.com/fbopen/image/logo.png](http://developers.facebook.com/fbopen/image/logo.png?ref=chrismessina.me) Most curious of all is how Facebook addressed a long-held concern of [Tim O'Reilly](http://tim.oreilly.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) that [open source licenses are obsolete](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/08/open-source-licenses-are-obsol.html?ref=chrismessina.me) in the era of network computing and Web 2.0 (*emphasis* original): > ...it's clear to me at least that the open source activist community needs to come to grips with the change in the way a great deal of software is deployed today. > > And that, after all, was my message: not that open source licenses are unnecessary, but that because their conditions are all triggered by the *act of software distribution*, they fail to apply to many of the most important types of software today, namely Web 2.0 applications and other forms of software as a service. And in the Facebook [announcement](http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=117&ref=chrismessina.me), Ami Vora states: > The CPAL is community-friendly and reflects how software works today by recognizing web services as a major way of distributing software. Thus Facebook neatly skirts this [previous limitation in most open source licenses](http://ostatic.com/158791-blog/is-google-oppressing-the-agplss?ref=chrismessina.me) by amending Section 15 to the CPAL, explicitly covering "Network Use": > The term 'External Deployment' means the use, distribution, or communication of the Original Code or Modifications in any way such that the Original Code or Modifications may be used by anyone other than You, whether those works are distributed or communicated to those persons or made available as an application intended for use over a network. As an express condition for the grants of license hereunder, You must treat any External Deployment by You of the Original Code or Modifications as a distribution under section 3.1 and make Source Code available under Section 3.2. I read this as referring to network deployments of the Facebook platform on other servers (or available as a web service) and forces both the release of code modifications that hit the public wire as well as imposing the display of the "Attribution Information" (as noted above). . . . So okay, first of all, we're not really dealing with the ~~true~~ *historic* definition of open source here, but we can mince words later. The code *is* available, *is* free to be tinkered with, reviewed, built on top of, redistributed (with that attribution restriction) and there's even a mechanism for [providing feedback](http://forum.developers.facebook.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [logging bugs](http://bugs.developers.facebook.com/enter%5Fbug.cgi?ref=chrismessina.me). Best of all, if you submit a patch that is accepted, [they'll send you a Facebook T-shirt](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/825599308?ref=chrismessina.me)! (*Wha*\-how! Where do I sign up?!) Not ironically, Facebook's approach with [fbOpen](http://developers.facebook.com/fbopen/?ref=chrismessina.me) smells an awful lot like Microsoft's [Shared Source Initiative](http://www.microsoft.com/resources/sharedsource/licensingbasics/sharedsourcelicenses.mspx?ref=chrismessina.me) ([some background](http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070806-evaluating-microsofts-shared-source-licenses.html?ref=chrismessina.me)). Consider the purpose of one of Microsoft's [three Shared Source licenses](http://www.microsoft.com/resources/sharedsource/licensingbasics/sharedsourcelicenses.mspx?ref=chrismessina.me), the so-called "Reference License": > The Microsoft Reference License is a reference-only license that allows licensees to view source code in order to gain a deeper understanding of the inner workings of a given technology. It does not allow for modification or redistribution. Microsoft uses this license primarily for technologies such as its development libraries. Now compare that with the language of [Facebook's announcement](http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=117&ref=chrismessina.me): > The goal of this release is to help you as developers better understand Facebook Platform as a whole and more easily build applications, whether it’s by running your own test servers, building tools, or optimizing your applications on this technology. We’ve built in extensibility points, so you can add functionality to Facebook Open Platform like your own tags and API methods. While it's certainly conceivable that there may be [intrepid entrepreneurs](http://www.ringsidenetworks.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) that decide to extend the platform and release their own implementations (which, arguably would require a considerable amount of effort and infrastructure to duplicate the still-proprietary innards of Facebook proper — *remember that the fbOpen platform *IS NOT* Facebook*), they'd still need to attach the Facebook brand to their derivative work and open source their modifications, under a CPAL-compatible license (read: *not* GPL). In spite of all this — and whether Facebook is really offering a ["true" open source product](http://www.inquisitr.com/facebook-platform-a-claytons-open-source-effort?ref=chrismessina.me) or not — is really not the important thing. I'm raising issues simply to put this move into a broader context, highlighting some important decision points where Facebook zagged where others might have otherwise zigged, based on their own priorities and aspirations with the move. Put simply: Facebook's approach to open source is *nothing* like Google's, and it's critical that people considering building on either the fbOpen platform or OpenSocial do themselves a favor and familiarize themselves with the many essential differences. Furthermore, in light of my [recent](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/05/23/the-battle-for-the-future-of-the-social-web/?ref=chrismessina.me) [posts](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/05/31/facebook-the-ussr-communism-and-train-tracks/?ref=chrismessina.me), it occurs to me that the nature of open source is changing (or being changed) by the accelerating move to cloud computing architectures (where the source code is no longer necessarily a strategic asset, but where durable and ongoing access to data is the primary concern (harkening to Tim O'Reilly's frequent "[Data is the Intel Inside](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/02/data-is-the-intel-inside-one-m.html?ref=chrismessina.me)" quip) and how Facebook is the first of a new class of enterprises that's growing up *after open source*. I hope to expand on this line of thinking, but I'm starting to wonder — with regards to open source becoming essentially passĂŠ nowadays — did we win? Are we on top? Hurray? Or, did we bet on the wrong horse? Or, did the goalposts just move on us (again)? Or, is this just the next stage in an ongoing, ever-volatile struggle to balance the needs of business models that tend towards centralization against those more free-form and freedom seeking and expanding models where information and knowledge must diffuse, and must seek out growth and new hosts in order to continue to become more valuable. Again, pointing to [Tim's contention that Web 2.0 is also at least partly about harnessing collective intelligence, and that data sources that grow richer as more people use them](http://blip.tv/file/854129?ref=chrismessina.me) is a facet of the landscape, [what does *openness* mean now](http://broadstuff.com/archives/999-FreeConomics-Part-II-or-why-your-data-is-free-but-everywhere-in-chains.html?ref=chrismessina.me)? What barriers do we need to dissemble next? If it's no longer the propriety of software code, then is it time that we began, in earnest, to scale the walls of the proprietary data horders and collectors and take back (or re-federate) what might be rightfully ours? Or that we should at least be given permanent access to? Hmm? --- Related coverage: - [Facebook opens up, but misses opening](http://blogs.the451group.com/opensource/2008/06/03/facebook-opens-up-but-misses-opening/?ref=chrismessina.me) by [Jay Lyman](http://blogs.the451group.com/opensource/author/jlyman/?ref=chrismessina.me), 451 Group - [Facebook: Open Source Was Always the Plan](http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Enterprise-Apps/Facebook-Open-Source-Was-Always-the-Plan/?ref=chrismessina.me) by [Clint Boulton](http://www.eweek.com/cp/bio/Clint-Boulton/?ref=chrismessina.me), eWeek - [Facebook adopts the CPAL poison pill](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505%5F3-9958180-16.html?ref=chrismessina.me) by [Matt Asay](http://news.cnet.com/8300-13505%5F3-16.html?authorId=9728254&ref=chrismessina.me), CNET --- --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Une partie de la plateforme Facebook en code source ouvert | Marketing Internet, E-Commerce, E-CommunautĂŠ, Web 2.0 | K3 Blogue 2.0](http://www.k3blogue.com/2008/06/04/une-partie-de-la-plateforme-facebook-en-code-source-ouvert/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-04 05:24:08 \[...\] Parsing the “open” in Facebook’s “fbOpen” platform \[...\] **[Snowflake Seven](http://s7.myopenid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-04 06:42:08 Open source won in as much as it became so relevant and prevalent that the biggest of the proprietary operators not only noted it as a threat to their business but actually took defensive action. Thats as much of a win as can be had against capitalism which demands the scale always be tipped in its favor. Open source got close enough to equal footing with proprietary that the fulcrum had to be moved to give proprietary more leverage. **Todd** ¡ 2008-06-04 11:12:46 "Open" has been diluted, your screen shot of Microsoft's Open source web page with the prompt to install SilverLight comes to mind. But it may not matter. Any site providing hackable RESTful URLs is close enough for me. Add in Microformats, Open ID, Oauth, your pending Dizo thingy and some ULML and I consider it really "open", don't need the source code. **[Greg Bond](http://consumer2business.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-04 12:03:22 The meaning of open source is changing but regardless of whether the code is open, it will not matter as much as the information contained in the system being open. As long as information can be easily distributed throughout these not-so-open software structures, the system as a whole can maintain openness of its users. While you may not be able to tweak the software and distribute yourself, you will still be able to create software with very little barrier to entry. The duality of closed software with open standards of functionality will help to promote innovation in the long run. The platforms will be profitable before they become totally commoditized, to maintain an incentive to develop. What is occurring may not be the true meaning of open source but it is certainly an evolution of the movement, not a step back. **[Greg Bond](http://consumer2business.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-04 12:04:25 btw how not 'open' is your commenting system Mr. Moderation. **[The importance of Android](http://www.lk9.se/2008/06/04/the-importance-of-android/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-04 12:06:51 \[...\] up it’s platform, under a CPAL lisence, basically it’s kind of open source. Please read Chris Messina’s post on it if you want to understand more about the license and how it relates to the founding open \[...\] **Todd** ¡ 2008-06-04 14:36:58 From MS "Open Source" web page: "...Click here to install SilverLight!" http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2548332533/ And this Simpson's episode came to mind when I realized there is an intentional effort to dilute the word "open": Marge: Oh Homer, please! You're embarrassing yourself. Homer: No I'm not, Marge! They're embarrassing me. They're embarrassing America. They turned the Navy into a floating joke. They ruined all our best names like Bruce, and Lance, and Julian. Those were the toughest names we had! Now they're just, uh... John \[ played by John Waters \]: Queer? Homer: Yeah, and that's another thing! I resent you people using that word. That's our word for making fun of YOU! We need it!! **[Dan Benyamin](http://dan.benyamin.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-04 15:02:40 Hey Chris! Great post (as usual!), thought I would throw a few cents in the ring. The open source licensing community IMHO often times paint themselves into a corner with licenses -- I see a separation of open source's true ethos with what's written in the license. Compare GPL with the MIT license: the GPL license is so onerous that it actually becomes a huge pain in the ass to abide by it. But I digress... What \_I\_ value as the core of open source has been totally victorious: some software is better served as core building blocks than as a source of revenue. If you can't sell software, then putting it under an easily digestible open source license: 1\. gets the code in front of lots of smart folks who can make it better. 2\. gets the code in front of lots of smart folks who think of cool new things to do with it. 3\. gets the code in front of lots of eager folks who can learn from it. 4\. provides ample proof that the software isn't doing any funny business. 5\. helps build economies that build value on top of it. 6\. gets the authors some net fame. That's why so many big name open source projects have academic roots. It is why open source voting machine software makes sense. It's why open source communications make sense (twitter?). BUT, open source \_commercial platforms\_ are really a sneaky subversion of this. Companies aren't interested in selling the platform per se; they are interested in having the platform as core to as many things as possible. Just take a look at open source licensed material from Microsoft and Adobe. At the end of the day the platform play is to take you back to a mothership revenue stream. Maybe this only occurs in aggregate, maybe you don't care. In any case, by making a platform "open source", you try to take advantage of all of the points listed above, but with the added twist that all the new economies it creates eventually drive revenue to the company that put it there. So the issue for anyone looking at F8 or another platform is really: "how does this eventually feed back to the parent?" and "does that matter to me?" **[Todd Troxell](http://rapidpacket.com/~xtat/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-04 19:28:47 I had similar thoughts on this peculiar definition of "open". This is the post I wanted to write :) **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 07:05:40 I, too, was very interested by their Affero-like clause. There's been some debate recently in circles that I run in over whether or not such a clause can be enforced - consensus seems to be that it cannot. **[Unit Structures – Linking Unit Structures](http://fstutzman.com/2008/06/04/linking-unit-structures/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-22 08:54:05 \[...\] Messina on the mechanics of Facebook’s new “open” platform. Messina asks “did we win? Are we on top? Hurray? Or, did we bet on the wrong horse? Or, did \[...\] **[FactoryCity » Open-washing and the CamelOpenCircle …Jerk](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/03/20/openwashing/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-04-22 16:11:57 \[...\] worried for some time that “open” as a market differentiator is becoming diluted and washed out, just as “organic” and “green” before. Like \[...\] ### Facebook, the USSR, communism, and train tracks URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/facebook-the-ussr-communism-and-train-tracks/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:54.000Z > Low hills closed in on either side as the train eventually crawled on to high, tabletop grasslands creased with snow. Birds flew at window level. I could see lakes of an unreal cobalt blue to the north. The train pulled into a sprawling rail yard: the Kazakh side of the Kazakhstan-China border. Workers unhitched the cars, lifted them, one by one, ten feet high with giant jacks, and replaced the wide-gauge Russian undercarriages with narrower ones for the Chinese tracks. Russian gauges, still in use throughout the former Soviet Union, are wider than the world standard. The idea was to the prevent invaders from entering Russia by train. The changeover took hours. — Robert D. Kaplan, [The Ends of the Earth](http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FEnds-Earth-Turkmenistan-Cambodia-Frontiers%2Fdp%2F0679751238&tag=factorycity-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&ref=chrismessina.me) I read this passage today while sunning myself at [Hope Springs Resort](http://hopespringsresort.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) near Palm Springs. Tough life, I know. The passage above immediately made me think of Facebook, and I had visions of the old Facebook logo with a washed out Stalin face next to the wordmark (I'm a visual person). But the thought came from some specific recent developments, and fit into a broader framework that I [talked about loosely](http://gillmorgang.techcrunch.com/2008/05/29/gillmor-gang-052908/?ref=chrismessina.me) to Steve Gillmor about on [his podcast](http://gillmorgang.techcrunch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). I also wrote about it last week, essentially calling for Facebook and Google to [come together to co-develop standards for the social web](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/05/23/the-battle-for-the-future-of-the-social-web/?ref=chrismessina.me), but, having been reading up on Chinese, Russian, Turkish and Central Asian history, and being a benefactor of the American enterprise system, I'm coming over to [Eran](http://hueniverse.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [others](http://500hats.typepad.com/500blogs/2008/05/chris-messina-i.html?ref=chrismessina.me)' point that 1) [it's too early to standardize](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/05/23/the-battle-for-the-future-of-the-social-web/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-99145) and 2) it probably isn't necessary anyway. Go ahead, let a thousand flowers bloom. If I've learned anything from [Spread Firefox](http://spreadfirefox.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [BarCamp](http://barcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [coworking](http://coworking.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and the like, it's that propaganda needs to be free to be effective. In other words, you're not going to convince people of your way of thinking if you lock down what you have, especially if what you have is culture, a mindset or some other philosophical approach that helps people narrow down what constitutes right and wrong. Look, if [Martin Luther](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin%5FLuther?ref=chrismessina.me) had nailed his [Ninety-five Theses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-Five%5FTheses?ref=chrismessina.me) to the door but had ensconced them in [DRM](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital%5Frights%5Fmanagement?ref=chrismessina.me), he would not have been as effective at bringing about the Reformation. Likewise, the [future of the social web](http://josephsmarr.com/2008/05/30/opensocial-openid-and-oauth-oh-my-google-io/?ref=chrismessina.me) will not be built on proprietary, closed-source protocols and standards. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that Google wants [OpenSocial](http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/?ref=chrismessina.me) to be an "[open standard](http://www.slideshare.net/chanezon/googleio-opensocial-std-for-social-web5/?ref=chrismessina.me)" and Facebook wants to be the [*openemest* of them all](http://www.techmeme.com/080527/p101?ref=chrismessina.me#a080527p101)! The problem is not about being *open* here. Everyone gets that there's little marginal competitive advantage to keeping your code closed anymore. Keeping your [IP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual%5Fproperty?ref=chrismessina.me) cards close to your chest makes you a worse card player, not better. The problem is with adoption, gaining and maintaining \[developer\] interest and in stoking distribution. And, that brings me to the fall of the Communism and the USSR, back where I started. I wasn't alive back when the [Cold War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold%5Fwar?ref=chrismessina.me) was in its heyday. Maybe I missed something, but let's just go on the assumption that things are better off now. From what I'm reading in [Kaplan's book](http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FEnds-Earth-Turkmenistan-Cambodia-Frontiers%2Fdp%2F0679751238&tag=factorycity-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&ref=chrismessina.me), I'd say that the Soviets left not just social, but environmental disaster in their wake. The whole region of Central Asia, at least in the late 90s, was fucked. And while there are many causes, more complex than I can probably comprehend, a lot of it seems to have to do with a lack of *cultural identity* and a lack of *individual agency* in the areas affected by, or left behind by, Communist rule. Now, when we talk about social networks, I mean, c'mon, I realize that these things aren't exactly nations, nation-states or even tribal groups warring for control of natural resources, food, potable water, and so forth. BUT, the members of social networks number in the millions in some cases, and it would be foolish not to appreciate that the borders — the meticulously crafted hardline boundaries between digital nation-states — are going to be redrawn when the battle for cultural dominance between Google (et al) and Facebook is done. It's not the same caliber of [dĂŠtente](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detente?ref=chrismessina.me) that we saw during the Cold War but it's certainly a situation where two sides with very different ideological bents are competing to determine the nature of the future of the \[world\]. On the one hand, we have a [nanny state](http://facebook.com/) who thinks that it knows best and needs to [protect its users from themselves](http://www.ownyouridentity.com/2008/05/16/how-facebook-is-like-the-bush-administration/?ref=chrismessina.me), and on the other, a lassĂŠ-faire-trusting [band of bros](http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/pressrel/opensocial.html?ref=chrismessina.me) who are looking to the free market to inform the design of the [Social Web writ large](http://bobbickel.blogspot.com/2008/05/facebook-vs-google-whos-big-dog.html?ref=chrismessina.me). On the one hand, there's uncertainty about how to build a "national identity"-slash-business on top of lots of [user data](http://andrewchen.typepad.com/andrew%5Fchens%5Fblog/2008/05/ltv-calculation.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (that, oh yeah, I thought was supposed to be "owned" by the creators), and on the other, a model of the web, that embraces all its failings, nuances and spaghetti code, but that, more than likely, will stand the test of time as a durable provider of the kind of liberty and agency and free choice that wins out time and again throughout history. That [Facebook is attempting to open source its platform](http://bobbickel.blogspot.com/2008/05/facebook-to-open-source-platform.html?ref=chrismessina.me), to me, sounds like offering the world a different rail gauge specification for building train tracks. It may be better, it may be slicker, but the flip side is that the Russians used the same tactic to try to keep people from having any kind of competitive advantage over their people or influence over how they did business. You can do the math, but look where it got'em. S'all I'm sayin'. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Terrell Russell](http://terrellrussell.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-31 19:17:17 And coupled with the fact that citizens of the USSR could not as easily 'leave' at the time. They were \*much\* more affected by the top-down decisions being made for them that the users at Facebook are today. Well, that and anyone interested in jumping ship or hedging bets already have accounts on other systems. **[Elias Bizannes](http://liako.biz/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-31 20:28:58 A little stretched, but good analogy. To extend on the world of communism as being analogous with todays social networking sphere, consider the point about what life was like for people under communism which rudely converted to capitalism: they want their old lives back. I remember one extensive conversation with a dude in his 30s on a bus in Albania, in which he was telling me how he [prefered that world](http://liako.biz/2005/06/albania/?ref=chrismessina.me) because they had better security and economically, they lived better - a sentiment I validated with others in his age group and above. We need to be careful that we are not overplaying the tune of openess like the free market song without realising, that a controlled environment does have its benefits - and a sudden change rather than a slow shift is what hurt countries like Russia and Albania as opposed to the Chinese brand of communism that evolved to capitalism. I'm not refuting your point about Facebook doing this as a competitive strategy, rather highlighting the point about change: we need more focus on the discussion and let these systems evolve to their own brand of openess for them to eventually be on the same system. Otherwise, this vision of openess may instead become anarchy, an outcome that's best avoided if we want a better future. **[Matthew Dawson](http://www.thenestedfloat.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-01 07:47:35 I, too, like the analogy - though I think Elias has an excellent point about the segment (majority?) of folks in communist-turned-capitalist states who'd rather have their old lives back. I think that extension of the analogy definitely holds. Most of my friends on Facebook - that is, "real life" friends - couldn't care less about who owns their social data. To that end (and I hope this isn't leading too far off-topic), I think there's a rhetorical strategy that may help your average, everyday Facebook user wrap their head around the importance of this stuff. That is: what would happen if Facebook up and vanished? What would you lose, how crappy would you feel? Facebook may not up and vanish, but giving people a touchstone for how important that data really is to them can help move the dialogue along. **[The real value of Social media = Interaction « Alexander van Elsas’s Weblog on new media & technologies and their effect on social behavior](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2008/06/02/the-real-value-of-social-media-interaction/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-01 23:03:17 \[...\] understand why Chris compares Facebook to Russian Railroads, then go no further and read his post here, it’s worth it! That Facebook is attempting to open source it platform, to me, sounds like \[...\] **[Scobleizer — Tech geek blogger » Blog Archive Chris Messina nails it «](http://scobleizer.com/2008/06/02/chris-messina-nails-it/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-01 23:21:49 \[...\] Messina, who is one of the smartest developers in the industry, puts those feelings into a post that finally nailed it for me. Thank you Chris. Facebook=centralized planning. Facebook=Soviet Russia. We all know how that \[...\] **[Alexander van Elsas](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-02 00:03:42 Chris, love the analogy. Excellent and thoughtful post. I think that the way Facebook works now will not allow them easily to change to a truly open platform. It's their business model and genes that sit in the way. It has become too large to easily adapt to the notion of an open web, I prefer to call this a User Centric Web. Their success has created their own innovator's dilemma, and you can easily spot that in the way they constantly opening up (one way only, towards FB) a tiny bit when others put the pressure on. I used your analogy in a post where I expressed my views on Social Media, thanks! **[william fischer](http://workhound.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-02 03:23:59 It appears to me that utility was behind the development of the functional spec for facebook and that this may have imposed more structure out the outset. Linkedin - not fun but a handy rolodex, was similarly purpose built. Twitter which seems much more like a proof of concept that caught on, has created an eco-system that is now developing the tools to make it more useful. If facebook sacrificed functionality for whimsy, would it have caught on? I agree that facebook has a bit of an authoritarian feel but in successful free-markets the emergence of common law and core infrastructure are still important, no? **Ivan** ¡ 2008-06-02 05:19:08 Russian train tracks has nothing to do with USSR, communism and Stalin. They already existed before communists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad\_gauge#Russian\_Broad\_Gauge **[Nicholas Kreidberg](http://twitter.com/niczak?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-02 05:29:43 Great article, good points made and nice analogy. **[dave mcclure](http://500hats.typepad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-02 08:22:12 i don't think the analogy is on target chris. in this case, i'd have to say it's Facebook that's been pushing the technical standard for "train tracks", and it's Google & others who are coming to the party johnny-come-lately. you may argue that FOAF, XFN, & OpenID have been around for while, but it's exactly Facebook's implementation (and perhaps LiveJournal before them) that has made some modified form of these features & functionality available to a wide audience. while i have no doubt that a world of standards would suit everyone better, it's also true that it strikes me as unlikely that Facebook will go quietly into that night after having spent 3 years building our a very useful & innovative social networking system & application platform (that many others are now copying). it's of course nice to think that Facebook & others would come around to an open standards view of the world, but that would likely put more pressure on their already-challenged view of monetizing their \[currently free\] service. while i don't particularly like that they appear to talk nice about standards, i won't disagree that it's not really what they're thinking. on the other hand, it IS appropriate for any company to defend their position in the market, and i have no problem with that. if others compete better -- with or without open standards -- that's great too, it will force FB & others to respond. in fact, i would argue that it's actually BETTER for the ecosystem to have at least 2 alternatives; one based on the standards you/others propose, and another not. that still provides plenty of market for both options to experiment & offer benefit to the community... and isn't that better for them anyway? Esperanto might have been a great standard had everyone jumped in. then again, it probably didn't offer a lot of innovation along with the standardization. maybe that's really what we need -- not just standardization, but innovation as well. both can be useful. whether "Russian standard gauge" trains are an innovation or an anachronism, certainly time will tell. **[Is Facebook a Marxian Paradise? | Max Gladwell](http://www.maxgladwell.com/2008/06/is-facebook-a-marxian-paradise/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-02 09:08:10 \[...\] tactics, drawing our own lighthearted comparison to the Star Wars saga. In a recent blog post, Chris Messina draws inspiration from a Robert Kaplan quote and finds a compelling analogy between Facebook and \[...\] **[Patrick Chanezon](http://wordpress.chanezon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-03 08:39:12 @Dave McClure: "late to the party", like Alternative Current came after Direct Current? http://www.nicholasgcarr.com/bigswitch/ We all know how this one ended:-) P@ **James Godwin** ¡ 2008-06-03 12:01:57 Facebook and its founders want to fundamentally change the way we communicate. FB believes they can make the tool that humanity will use to start solving the really big problems we face. As MZ says "we believe the most efficient way to accomplish these goals is by building a business" Make any analogy you want and the fact remains, as DM pointed out, Facebook is leading the industry with its vision and execution. The rest of the guys are scrambling to catch up. Who would you rather have leading us into the future? It is good, as DM mentions to have multiple alternatives(leaders). With the life example MZ has set, the notion that Facebook does not want what's best for the consumer just doesn't make sense. Think about it this way, if you were facebook and thought you could save the world, wouldn't you do everything in your power to make that happen? As with their platform policy. There is something very powerful about using a standard system. What would happen if there were 4, not 1 way of voting in elections? It would be much harder to organize, communicate, and make decisions. **[Back in the USSR « Co-render.com](http://co-render.com/2008/06/04/back-in-the-ussr/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-04 08:05:59 \[...\] Messina is more granular in his vision of the future, and recently wrote a great post on Facebook, the USSR, communism and train racks. It’s basically about how the borders of social networks will drastically evolve as the \[...\] **[SexySEO](http://sexyseo.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 12:13:01 So, you know Russian history and you are visual person ;) That is nice :D "the future of the social web will not be built on proprietary, closed-source protocols and standards" - brilliant! **[Why Facebook doesn’t work for me! : Texas Startup Blog](http://www.texasstartupblog.com/2008/06/05/why-facebook-doesnt-work-for-me/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-20 19:35:49 \[...\] Chris Messina wrote the post that explains why Facebook will NEVER have my full attention. I won’t bother to try to analyze his post, simply point to it: Facebook, the USSR, communism, and train tracks. \[...\] ### Machine tagging relationships URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/machine-tagging-relationships/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:53.000Z I've been doing quite [a bit of thinking](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/19/relationships-are-complicated/?ref=chrismessina.me) about how to represent relationships in portable contact lists. Many of my concerns stem from two basic problems: 1. **Relationships in one context don't necessarily translate *directly* into new contexts.** When we talk about making relationships "portable", we can't forget that a friend on one system isn't necessarily the same kind of friend on another system (if at all) even if the other context uses the same label. 2. **The semantics of a relationship should not form the basis for globally setting permissions.** That is, just because someone is marked (perhaps accurately) as a family member does not always mean that that individual should be granted elevated permissions *just because* they're "family". While this approach works for Flickr, where how you classify a relationship (Contact, Friend, Family) determines what that contact can (or can't) see, semantics alone shouldn't determine how permissions are assigned. Now, stepping back, it's worth pointing out that I'm going on a basic presumption here that moving relationships from one site to another is [valuable and beneficial](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/08/03/deeelightful-insanely-great-services-enabled-by-portable-social-networks/?ref=chrismessina.me). I also presume that the [more convenient it is](http://blog.dopplr.com/2007/06/23/importing-your-social-network-from-other-sites/?ref=chrismessina.me) to find or connect with people who I already know (or have established acquaintance with) on a site will lead me to explore and discover that site's *actual* features faster, rather than getting bogged down in finding, inviting and adding friends, which in and of itself has no marginal utility. Beyond *just* bringing my friends with me is the opportunity to leverage the categorization I've done elsewhere, but that's where existing formats like [XFN](http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [FOAF](http://www.foaf-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) appear to fall short. On the one hand, we have overlapping terms for relationships that might not mean the same thing in different places, and on the other, we have unique relationship descriptions that might not apply elsewhere (e.g. *fellow travelers* on Dopplr). This was one of the reasons why I proposed [focusing on the "contact" and "me" relationships in XFN](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/11/portable-contact-lists-and-the-case-against-xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me) (I mean really, what can you actually do if you know that a particular contact is a "muse" or "kin"?). Still, if metadata about a relationship exists, we shouldn't just discard it, so how then might we express it? Well, to keep the solution as simple and generalizable as possible, we'd see that the kinds of relationships and the semantics which we use to describe relationships can be reduced to tags. Given a context, it's fair to infer that other relationships of the same class in the same context are equivalent. So, if I mark two people as "friends" on Flickr, they are equally "Flickr friends". Likewise on Twitter, all people who I follow are equally "followed". Now, take the [link-rel](http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html?ref=chrismessina.me#adef-rel) approach from HTML, and we have a shorthand attribute ("rel") that we can use to create a [machine tag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine%5Ftag?ref=chrismessina.me) that follows the [standard namespace:predicate=value format](http://adactio.com/journal/1274/?ref=chrismessina.me), like so: ``` flickr:rel=friend flickr:rel=family twitter:rel=followed dopplr:rel=fellow-traveler xfn:rel=friend foaf:rel=knows ``` Imagine being able to pass your relationships between sites as a series of machine tagged [URLs](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/01/03/its-high-time-we-moved-to-url-based-identifiers/?ref=chrismessina.me), where you can now say "I want to share this content with all my \[contacts|friends|family members\] from \[Flickr\]" or "Share all my restaurant reviews from this trip with my \[fellow travelers\] from \[Dopplr|TripIt\]." By machine tagging relationships, not only do we maintain the fidelity of the relationship *with context*, but we inherit [a means of querying against this dataset](http://geobloggers.com/archives/2007/01/24/offtopic-ish-flickr-ramps-up-triple-tag-support/?ref=chrismessina.me) in a way that maps to the origin of the relationship. Furthermore, this would enable sites to use relationship classification models from other sites. For example, a site like Pownce could use the "Twitter model" of followers and followed; SmugMug could use Flickr's model of contacts, friends and family; Basecamp could use Plaxo's model of business, friend and family. Dumping this data into a [JSON-based](http://json.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) format like [jCard](http://microformats.org/wiki/jcard?ref=chrismessina.me) would also be straight-forward: ``` { "uid": "plaxo-12345", "fn": "Joseph Smarr", "url": [ { "value": "http://josephsmarr.com", "type": "home" }, { "value": "http://josephsmarr.com", "type": "blog" }, ], "category": [ { "value": "favorite" }, { "value": "plaxo employee" }, { "value": "xfn:rel=met" }, { "value": "xfn:rel=friend" }, { "value": "xfn:rel=colleague" }, { "value": "flickr:rel=friend" }, { "value": "dopplr:rel=fellow-traveler" }, { "value": "twitter:rel=follower" } ], "created": "2008-05-24T12:00:00Z", "modified": "2008-05-25T12:34:56Z" } ``` I'm curious to know whether this approach would be useful, or what other possibilities might result from having this kind of data. I like it because it's simple, it uses a prior convention ([most widely supported on Flickr](http://www.flickr.com/groups/api/discuss/72157594497877875/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Upcoming](http://geobloggers.com/archives/2007/01/30/eyes-on-the-world-upcoming-machine-tags-edition/?ref=chrismessina.me)), it maintains original context and semantics. It also means that, rather than having to list *every account* for a contact as a serialized list with associated rel-values, we're only dealing in highly portable tags. I'm thinking that this would be very useful for [DiSo](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), and when importing friends from remote sites, we'll be sure to index this kind of information. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Eran Hammer-Lahav](http://eran.pip.verisignlabs.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 14:38:59 Is you are tagging the relationship, can't we drop the 'rel' part? For example, just tag a relationship twitter:follower. **[Steve Ivy](http://redmonk.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 14:58:01 Eran - it's true that you can, but machine tags follow the `namespace:predicate=value` pattern, so that it can be parsed out easily. In the future, for some sites, a different predicate might make sense, even in the context of a `rel` attribute. **[Tom Morris](http://tommorris.org/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 15:20:51 Why not use a real URI? "foaf:rel=knows" is http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/knows and "xfn:rel=friend" is http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/11#friend - both themselves possible tag URIs, but also having the neat ability in that you can dereference them and get out interesting information. For use in HTML, individual services can just use some other rel value, like rel="fellow-traveller", and you can glean the meaning of it from the domain. **[Mariana](http://twitter.com/onaono?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 15:49:57 I like the approach but it arise on me a doubt about its ps implications. Due to the extremely fluid character of web relationships, the representation/tagging of them, seem to me like a way to fix them into a certain level. With 'permanent' bounds like family, the system you propose seem very appropriate and necessary! But with web-based relations this could be inconvenient. In my experience, best relationships made in social networks tend towards the blurry and, ideally erasure of the medium they arouse from. And, as you do suggest, a successful contact for me is the one who can translate directly and fluid from flickr to mail and SMS... so I think using a tagging r. machine could make translations harder. Ex: best poke buddy is not just a 'facebook friend' -as he'd be tagged in portable list- but a friend. So what I mean is that, in some cases adding the context will also re-affirm and fix the virtuality and the 'hierarchy' of a relationship, which is, luckly, not a desired thing. ...still I'd like a lot to see your developement on this machine. Cheers **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 16:03:19 @Eran, the other aspect is that machine tags can be useful for other pairings, such as twitter:user=factoryjoe or twitter:status=123456\. Given that Flickr already uses this convention, as Steve described, means that we're not doing simple name:value pairs, but using something that has already gained some traction... **[Don Park](http://donpark.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 16:21:34 my first impression is that the origin of the service is already encoded in the href URL. dopplr.com/me already says the service is dopplr, but there isn't a standard way to extract that information since formats like me.jaiku.com or last.fm/users/me are also popular. using 'machine tags' in XFN seems to have lots of potential. the data providers can maintain backwards compatibility since rel="friend" can co-exist with twitter:rel="friend". will a service name come to mean a style of friendship? like xerox has come to mean photocopying, will a competing microblogging platform add xfn tags of twitter:rel="friend" because its a twitter-style relationship rather than an actual twitter friend. **Mariana** ¡ 2008-05-25 16:52:58 @Don Perhaps it’s just a temporary-adaptation process but I think that, more than the plataform /brand is the game language used in each software what do shape -until certain (perhaps light but real) degree- the relationships sustained there. Feel the mixing of languages expand the richness of contacts in a fast increasing way. So as languages, relationships are changing in a very high speed, so it can become tedious to re-tag and re set the access permissions under regular basis. **[Lachlan Hardy](http://lachstock.com.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 18:03:01 Very interesting idea, Chris. The real benefit I see is the ability to port and re-use an existing model from a third-party site. In the same way Ma.gnolia now effectively out-sources its identity verification to third-party sites, a site could out-source its entire relationship structure. It's not that my site might not want to create our own relationship model, but being able to use one from somewhere else that stays current would sure cut out a lot of friction! **[http://terrellrussell.com/](http://terrellrussell.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-26 01:52:39 And what does a flickr.org or twitter.net do? How can we justify not using fully qualified domain names? **[links for 2008-05-26 « Breyten’s Dev Blog](http://breyten.wordpress.com/2008/05/26/links-for-2008-05-26/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-26 03:31:48 \[...\] Machine tagging relationships (tags: citizen-centric web digital identity microformats technology building diso foaf machine tags portable contacts relationships xfn) \[...\] **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-26 13:51:31 @Lachlan: exactly. Especially if you're just a service built on top of, say, a collection of photo-sharing services, having a uniform relationship model might greatly reduce your overhead and having to reinvent established protocols. It's also a way of dumping one file with ALL my relationships from EVERY social network between services and allowing for my relationships (to identities that have been consolidated) to move in one fell swoop. Rather than having to ask each individual service what the relationship is, I can be authoritative about the relationship I have to my contacts. @Terrell: Good question. I'll have to circle back to the machine tag originators, but I think it just becomes a competition for the authoritative namespace. Of course using the fully-specified domain might prevent some confusion, ultimately it's just like using tags on social networking sites (i.e. 'development' has many different verticals). I don't see much value in trying to co-opt a given namespace... I mean, so what if it's a flickr.org namespace? Comparing a "flickr.org friend" to a "flickr.com fiend" seems like a losing proposition. Still, I'll ask around and see what the CW is. **[Max Design - standards based web design, development and training » Some links for light reading (28/5/08)](http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2008/05/28/some-links-177/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-27 09:51:17 \[...\] Machine tagging relationships \[...\] **[links for 2008-06-05 « Derivadow.com](http://derivadow.com/2008/06/05/links-for-2008-06-05/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 10:31:53 \[...\] Machine tagging relationships \[FactoryCity\] An interesting idea - but I don’t know if it’s helpful - in the abstract sure it’s a good idea but does it help solve any real world problems? I don’t know, none that I have. (tags: dataportability identity socialgraph) \[...\] **Aaron Straup Cope** ¡ 2008-07-02 17:38:28 We chose not to use fully qualified URLs for namespaces because they are, at worst, weird and scary and confusing and, at best, hard to type. The goal with machine tags was to offer just enough syntax to let people better structure -- and search -- their tags without sacrificing the ease of plain-old tagging itself. Our experience has been that if people really need to disambiguate their namespaces they add an extra "xmlns:$NS=$URL" machine tag to their photos. This has been the case so far with institutions participating in the Commons, anyway. (Tangentially related is Eliot Kimbel's wonderful, albeit nerd-irific, post titled "[I was wrong (sort of) about namespaces](http://drmacros-xml-rants.blogspot.com/2006/02/i-was-wrong-sort-of-about-namespaces.html?ref=chrismessina.me#links)".) Finally, to answer the question about service:\* or \*:service I will only say that I use the former since the search API allows me to query for "\*:event=" or "\*:user=" which returns results across multiple services, say upcoming and lastfm, in one go. Likewise, "aero:\*" allows me to investigate only those properties belonging to a single namespace (planespotters in this case). But there are no rules. Like tagging, the hope is that the various communities will arrive at and adapt a consensus according to their needs. ### The battle for the future of the social web URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-battle-for-the-future-of-the-social-web/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:36.000Z When I was younger, I used to bring over my Super Nintendo games to my friends' houses and we'd play for hours... that is, if they had an SNES console. If, for some reason, my friend had a Sega system, my games were useless and we had to play something like [Sewer Shark](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewer%5FShark?ref=chrismessina.me). Inevitably less fun was had. What us kids didn't know at the time was that we were suffering from a platform war, that manifested, more or less, in the form of a standards war for the domination of the post-Atari video game market. We certainly didn't *get* why Nintendo games didn't work on Sega systems, they just *didn't*, and so we coped, mostly by not going over to the kid's house who had Sega. No doubt, friendships were made — and destroyed — on the basis of which console you had, and on how many games you had for the preferred platform. Indeed, the kids with the richest parents got a pass, since they simply had every known system and could play *anyone's* games, making them by default, *super popular* (in other words, it was good to be able to *afford* to ignore the standards war altogether). Fast-forward 10 years and we're on the cusp of a new standards war, where the players and stakes have changed considerably but the nature of warfare has remained much the same as [Hal R. Varian](http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~hal/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Carl Shapiro](http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/shapiro/?ref=chrismessina.me) described in [Information Rules](http://moourl.com/inforules?ref=chrismessina.me) in 1999\. But the casualties, as before, will likely be the consumers, customers and patrons of the technologies in question. So, while we can learn much from history about how to fight the war, I think that, for the sake of the web and for *web citizens* generally, this coming war can be avoided, and that, perhaps, it should be. What I'm talking about, of course, is the seemingly inevitable *duopoly* between Google's [OpenSocial](http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/?ref=chrismessina.me) and Facebook's [F8](http://developers.facebook.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) platforms. [Patrick Chanezon](http://wordpress.chanezon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), Google's API evangelist, even went so far to claim that Google is following Chapter 8 and Facebook is following Chapter 9 of Information Rules, suggesting that Google is taking a "Cooperation and Compatibility" approach, while Facebook is seeking to [incite a full-fledged standards war](http://wordpress.chanezon.com/?p=45&ref=chrismessina.me): [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2515367974/?ref=chrismessina.me)...having read these two chapters now, I'm not sure things are so cut and dry, and it's worth taking the time to consider how the rhetoric on both sides maps to the various tactics and strategies outlined in the book (co-authored, mind you, by [Google's Chief Economist](http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2007/07/19/economics-according-to-google/?ref=chrismessina.me)). But look, I'm not going to bore you with *all* the details. I am, however, going try to put this current situation into some perspective, and suggest a way of moving forward. Of the browser wars of 1996, [Business Week wrote](http://www.businessweek.com/1996/41/b349652.htm?ref=chrismessina.me) (talking about Bill Clinton): > That the contest caught even the President's eye underscores just how seminal it is: This battle is for nothing less than the soul of the Internet. Thus if the spoils of desktop browser wars was the *soul of the Internet*, then the coming war will be for the soft, pliant heart of the social web; it all comes down to distribution and sticky eyeballs synapsed to clicky-clicky fingers over which advertisers and their kin salivate and jerk off. No kidding. Back in '96 (when I was 15), you "provided" distribution by selling certain default real estate in your browser (how do you think Flock keeps [managing to raise more money](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/05/21/flock-more-than-doubles-its-funding/?ref=chrismessina.me)?). This is one reason why the [Netscape vs. Internet Explorer war](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser%5Fwars?ref=chrismessina.me#The%5Ffirst%5Fbrowser%5Fwar) mattered so much — and why the Justice Department intervention decoupling IE from the operating system was so critical. It's also why Mozilla has been able to amass a warchest ([on the order of $50M](http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/documents/mf-2006-audited-financial-statement.pdf?ref=chrismessina.me)) by keeping Google in the search "pole position" (and it's also one compelling reason why [Yahoo! might acquire](http://www.newsfirex.com/blog/?p=203&ref=chrismessina.me) an app like [Inquisitor](http://www.inquisitorx.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Regardless, back in Web 1.0, browser distribution models were where it was *at*. But now that we've achieved cross-platform web standards support, generic feature parity (i.e. tabs, popup blocking), have reduced switching costs to nil, and, most importantly, brought about a generation of web surfers that connect to the web through all kinds of systems other than their own, the browser has been summarily reduced to a means to an end — an end which is commonly and increasingly some kind of social network. Therefore, the endgame here is in setting the priorities that will be represented, through architecture and application design, and [running code](http://incubator.apache.org/shindig/?ref=chrismessina.me), in the social platform(s) of the \[near\] future, and in who can sell the most convincing version of the story that their platform will provide the greatest ROI for the least investment, given current *sunk costs*, and access to the widest number of \[[qualified](http://www.facebook.com/press/releases.php?p=9176)\] individuals, networks and relationships. Look at how [Kevin Marks](http://kevinmarks.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (a good friend of mine) [describes the opportunity](http://opensocialapis.blogspot.com/2008/05/friend-connect-means-more-users-for.html?ref=chrismessina.me) for [Friend Connect](http://www.google.com/friendconnect/?ref=chrismessina.me): > For OpenSocial application developers, this gives you a whole new audience for your apps, beyond the hundreds of millions of users on existing social networks that support OpenSocial. Then consider what Patrick Chanezon (whom I recently met) said, when [interviewed](http://www.insidefacebook.com/2008/05/22/the-future-of-opensocial-qa-with-googles-patrick-chanezon/?ref=chrismessina.me) by none-other-than [Inside Facebook](http://www.insidefacebook.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (**emphasis** indicates interviewer question): > **Patrick, what new trends stand out to you at this juncture for OpenSocial?** We're still very early. Now that OpenSocial is reaching 200 million users, we're starting to see a lot more people ask how they can be involved. Meanwhile, Facebook promises much the same: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2515842652/?ref=chrismessina.me)Yet, unlike Google, which has focused on an almost exclusively developer-centric message to buffer their lack of clarity around user privacy, Facebook has revealed its conflicts of intention between serving its advertisers while awkwardly protecting the interests of its users, regularly alternating [press releases](http://www.facebook.com/press/releases.php) about [advertiser benefits](http://www.facebook.com/press/releases.php?p=9166) followed by [improved privacy protections](http://www.facebook.com/press/releases.php?p=11174). Not that Facebook should have it all figured out, but this waffling only reveals what's at stake here, and what's driving the priorities of *both* platforms — Google has merely drowned out their plans to monetize the OpenSocial platform with developer-friendly messages. Taking pages literally from [Information Rules](http://moourl.com/inforules?ref=chrismessina.me), both parties are employing *preemption and expectation management* strategies: > The logic of preemption is straightforward: build an early lead, so [positive feedback](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive%5Ffeedback?ref=chrismessina.me) works for you and against your rival. The same principle applies in markets with strong learning-by-doing: the first firm to gain significant experience will have lower costs and can pull even farther ahead. Either way, the trick is to exploit positive feedback. ... One way to preempt is simply to be first to market. Product development and design skills can be critical to gaining a first-mover advantage. But watch out: early introduction can also entail compromises in quality and a greater risk of bugs, either of which can doom your product. Remind you of the [notoriously capricious](http://www.allfacebook.com/2008/01/facebook-platform-goes-down/?ref=chrismessina.me) (but first-to-market) Facebook platform? Meanwhile, on expectations management: > ...Vaporware is a classic tactic aimed at influencing expectations: announce an upcoming product so as to freeze your rival's sales. ... The most direct way to manage expectations is by assembling allies and making grand claims about your product's current or future popularity. Sun has been highly visible in gathering allies in support of Java, including taking out full-page advertisements listing the companies in the Java coalition, showing how important expectations management is in markets with strong network externalities... Take a look at Google's [OpenSocial presentations](http://www.slideshare.net/search/slideshow?q=opensocial&submit=post&commit=Search&ref=chrismessina.me): fraught with logos and partner names (see [slide 1](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2515054037/?ref=chrismessina.me) and slides [15](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2515885852/?ref=chrismessina.me)\-[16](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2515886882/?ref=chrismessina.me) for recent examples of this kind of posturing). Classic expectations management. And so we can see where this is going: companies, groups and individuals wanting to build social applications (and not invest in their own social graph) are essentially beholden to the platform decisions of Google and Facebook. If the two parties [can't figure out how to pick up the phone and talk](http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=111&ref=chrismessina.me), we're going to have two competing platforms, both jockeying for developer attention, and forcing competition *for* the market, rather than competing *within* it. With everything that I know and have seen on the web (and while competition is typically good) this kind of fragmentation, generally, seems bad to me, primarily for the customers of these networks, who really don't (and shouldnt have to) care which standard wins out in the end. Unfortunately, it comes down to ego. In fact, *Information Rules* addresses with this kind of situation directly, advising against fragmentation in favor of increasing the size of the overall market: > **Before you engage in a standards battle, try to negotiate a truce and form an alliance with your would-be rival.** An agreed-upon standard may lead to a far bigger overall market, making for a larger pie that you can split with your partners. Don't be proud; be prepared to cut a deal even with your most bitter enemy. Can Google and Facebook come to grips on this? Well, I think they'd better, before Microsoft [scoops up Yahoo](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/technology/20soft.html?ref=chrismessina.me) ([which already pledged to support OpenSocial](http://yhoo.client.shareholder.com/press/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=301421&ref=chrismessina.me)) and [makes moves on Facebook](http://furrier.org/2008/05/19/silicon-valley-rumor-microsoft-to-buy-yahoo-search-and-then-facebook/?ref=chrismessina.me). Let's face it, while it looks like Microsoft is just playing with itself with its [Mesh platform](https://www.mesh.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), it needs a little [soylent juju](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent%5FGreen?ref=chrismessina.me) to get traction and marketshare to advance its [ad system](http://advertising.microsoft.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (which, by the way, [is what powers](http://www.facebook.com/press/releases.php?p=8084) Facebook [ads](http://advertising.microsoft.com/facebook?ref=chrismessina.me)). If Facebook and Yahoo *both* support OpenSocial, regardless of what the spec looks like, that's bad news for lock-in bent Microsoft, and good news for the web. So call me whacked, but here's what I think should happen in my next-three-months pipe dream: 1. Google should reach out to Facebook. And vice-versa. Preferably simultaneously to reduce any unseemly appearance of capitulation. Facebook should realize that fighting a standards war with Google isn't really going to benefit them long term. Meanwhile, Google should recognize the value that Facebook's interaction patterns would bring to OpenSocial, along with the value of reducing developer headaches in having to pick between one or other if resources aren't available to build for both. 2. Facebook should contribute a specification for handling "[dynamic privacy](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/05/how-should-dynamic-privacy-work?ref=chrismessina.me)" that promotes the interests of its members (and which should work for individual web citizens at large), beyond the flimsy, misleading and unclear privacy model currently [being promoted under the aegis of Friend Connect](http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2008/05/how-google-friend-connect-works.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Presuming it's good, adopting Facebook's "dynamic privacy" spec should be Facebook's top requirement for agreeing to adopt OpenSocial. (And heck, Facebook ends up looking like a good guy for agreeing to play along while not selling out the interests of its members.) 3. OpenSocial and the Facebook platform specs and (related IPR) should be [assigned](http://sites.google.com/a/opensocial.org/opensocial/OpenSocial-Foundation-Proposal/Intent-Agreement?ref=chrismessina.me) to an independent third party foundation, probably other than the [OpenSocial Foundation](http://www.opensocial.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) (given its proximity to Google), whose sole obligation would be to steward specifications of the open \[social\] web. 4. Develop interoperable standards, formats and protocols so that 1) applications could be run within Facebook, OpenSocial containers, and on any independent website and that 2) data would be accessible from any of these network providers, using a secure model where the owner of said data determines how their data may be used, who may see it and for how long. It's not that we're far off from this reality, but it will require the concerted effort of a few choice and able individuals within these organizations to make this happen. I believe that, with proper perspective, those agents of change who are already active in building out the future platforms of the social web can grasp the seriousness of the situation and, again, informed by history, will ultimately do the right thing, given the possible alternatives. We've made too much progress in the past year to let this opportunity slip out of reach owing to the egos or perceived short term economic benefits to be had by competing *for* dominance of the social web. It is much better for the health of the overall environment and ecosystem for standards to be set web-wide, and for competition to occur *within* the marketplace. Moreover, competing for market domination (where there can only be one) like we saw with Sega and Nintendo will primarily harm the customers of social web services. It is therefore my contention (and wish) that competition be focused on providing higher caliber services and products rather than on the length of the tether used to keep people tied to one network. Condensing and combining the OpenSocial and Facebook platform specifications will take work, vision and compromise, but is ultimately the only way we can avoid what would amount to a costly, unnecessary and unfortunate 10 year standards war where no winner would likely ever emerge. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Plattformkriege < LostFocus](http://www.lostfocus.de/archives/2008/05/23/plattformkriege/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-23 01:29:43 \[...\] Chris Messina. Letztendlich wird sich ja doch alles in Wohlgefallen auflĂśsen, wenn die Weltordnung zusammenbricht und alle marodierend durch die Straßen ziehen… Post a comment | Trackback URI \[...\] **[Scott Rafer](http://blog.lookery.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-23 06:15:45 Chris, I agree with the set up but not this conclusion: "competing for market domination (where there can only be one) like we saw with Sega and Nintendo will primarily harm the customers of social web services." First, this isn't Highlander or the proprietary console/cartridge world. It may well be that there can be more than one. Nobody needs to budget the time and money to stand in line at Toys R Us to move between vendors. Regardless of how data portability turns out, switching is free and geographically universal. Second, as a startup guy, I LOVE standards wars between large, nimble companies -- especially when a few large, slow companies are looking on with envy desperate to join the race. Consumer confusion is always part of the equation, but you can either choose to be annoyed by it or use it as an opportunity to do a better job marketing to a confused segment or two. For Google and Facebook to agree to an applications (or even privacy) standard this early in the process would radically slow platform innovation and stabilize the market in favor of the largest application vendors and the platforms themselves. That would be great for a dozen or so large-ish companies but terrible for everyone else. **dave mcclure** ¡ 2008-05-23 08:10:58 fascinating post chris. I'm skeptical of any likely dĂŠtente between Facebook & Google, or any similar Come-to-Jesus awakening by Facebook on standards, but regardless I'm not sure that market competition is harming consumers as much as you think. In particular, if 'playing fair & using standards' is as unlikely as I believe then perhaps a battle between 2 or more productive & fast-moving titans (& a thousand startups) isn't always so bad. at the very least im glad to see u not frame this as a simplistic "Facebook=evil / Google=good" discussion. both companies are self-interested regardless of their public posturings. tho again, that is perhaps the best of all possble worlds. in any case I look forward to reading / hearing more of your thoughts onthe subject. always worth listening to :) ps - and glad you're speaking again at Graphing Social Patterns in DC (yes, that's a shameless plug) **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-23 08:30:30 @Scott: Y'know, I feel for that point and find myself on the one hand wanting to support it, and on the other, feel that maybe with greater specificity in this discussion, you might come to agree that, when it comes to protocols like OpenID or OAuth, adoption by Facebook would generally be a good thing (Google already supports them), whereas competition in the platforms themselves, or in building apps for either, is a good thing given the immaturity of the market. Maybe a more apt analogy is between Windows, Mac OS X and the flavors of Linux, where, through data interchange formats, you can generally choose the operating system that works best for you without forfeiting your ability to use the output created on the other platforms. My concern, however, lies with the momentum that both platforms have right generated now, and how the design of these platforms may only take into consideration the needs of the silos, as opposed to the desires of or benefits to independent services. Let me put it another way: HTML may have been designed for documents, but since it didn't necessarily bake in any assumptions about how it would be used for applications, everyone had an equally hard time grafting the stuff to work in an application-friendly way. ;) Conversely, "virality" and "distribution" are being baked into the foundation of Google and Facebook's platforms and I worry that these two competing standards will be the dominant two, and as a result people will invest heavily in creating into their model(s). To give my own project a plug, DiSo is intended, I suppose, to be modeled on becoming a "Linux" of social web platforms. What's driving our priorities are very different from what's driving either Facebook's or Google's... and what it comes down to, which maybe didn't come out in my post, is a desire for true choice in the marketplace, rather than a kind of "Republican" and "Republican Lite" type of situation. @dave: I suppose my thoughts are still early, and ultimately these things are just natural outcomes along the road of technology development. In all that I've read about this stuff lately, I just hadn't seen this kind of perspective presented, and when Patrick mentioned the book, and I did some reading, I realized, "Geez, recent history really has something to teach us about this current situation!" **[Eran Hammer-Lahav](http://eran.pip.verisignlabs.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-23 08:52:29 It seems we are still very early in the game, with less than 2 years of experience with either platform, to try and consolidated. I would like to see more ideas and proposals at this stage, rather than have to compromise so early in the game. An agreement now would make it so much more difficult to be innovative in the space, as the politics of changing a common specification is going to make it extremely slow. **[Tom](http://tomsucks.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-23 09:13:32 "SNS" console? Wikipedia agrees: it's SNES (for Super Nintendo Entertainment System) **[Josh Kopelman](http://redeye.firstround.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-23 10:46:00 You had Nintendo? What a loser. All the cool kids had Sega ;-) **[William Harris](http://dbawill.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-23 13:19:40 Amazing post, not only very thoughtful and well researched, but so well written. I'm really very impressed, this ought to be in the "Best of Technology Writing 2008" **[Patrick Chanezon](http://wordpress.chanezon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-23 14:33:32 Thanks for the post Chris, glad that you liked Hal's book: studying history is a great way to understand the present and shape the future. I like your perspective about what should be done. Like my daughter says in slide 51 of a recent presentation http://www.slideshare.net/chanezon/south-america-open-social-tour-2008/ "Anyone can be friends":-) I agree that a dynamic privacy API would fill an important gap from a technical point of view. The numbers that Jesse Farmer published recently http://20bits.com/2008/05/06/the-state-of-the-facebook-platform/ may help collaboration: positive feedback works both ways, up and down! http://www.inforules.com/ft/ft.htm And OpenSocket gives developers the option to use OpenSocial on Facebook today http://www.opensocket.org/blog/ The next 6 months will be very interesting to live! P@ **[SexySEO](http://sexyseo.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 01:49:57 Hm... 1\. What competition you are talking about? Between Google and Facebook? It's David and Goliath, really ;-) 2\. Competition by itself is quite beneficial thingie - yes, of course! What a revelation :-) Can't you stretch your imagination and think of a non-proprietary open standard instead? **[Scott Rafer](http://blog.lookery.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 08:07:35 @sexySEO yes, that's the competition. I agree with you on #2, but this fight is only David and Goliath in the way that Google was the "David of Search" in 1999/2000\. The dominant player in social applications is already set in stone (assuming that they don't sell out to an acquirer who screws it up), and it's the critical fight for #2 that we're talking about here. **[Results: Data Portability’s Future — i-penny](http://i-penny.com/results-data-portabilitys-future/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-26 16:42:39 \[...\] more on the topic of the future of Data Portability, see Chris Messina's post today on the battle for the future of the social web and Dave McClure's \[...\] **[theharmonyguy](http://theharmonyguy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-26 21:43:27 Great perspective, Chris - I really hadn't viewed the whole scenario in this light yet. Much to think about. One thing that I've hardly seen discussed anywhere, though, is a technical comparison of the platforms. Regardless of what you think about Google, Facebook, the OpenSocial Foundation, etc., both platforms have different architectures that raise big concerns. For instance, all of the sites I've seen using Google's new Friend Connect lose all social features when JavaScript is disabled. OpenSocial is heavily reliant on iframe's and client-side code, raising questions of accessibility, security, and performance. Even if you think Facebook is an evil proprietary walled garden, you have to give them credit for building a platform that tightly integrates into the site via a template structure that's processed server-side. Usable Facebook applications can be built with their entire frontends free of iframe's and scripts (or not - iframe's and scripts aren't inherently evil, I'm just making a point). For all the "proprietary" talk regarding FBML, the end result is still HTML. I see OpenSocial and F8 following two very different paths regarding implementation, and while I respect OpenSocial's steps to be more "open," the iframe/script approach gives me great concern. Regardless of whether Facebook and Google work together or a DiSo approach takes over or what, I hope the eventual "winner" is one that takes into account these kind of technical issues - for the good of both developers and users. **[Julian Bond](http://www.voidstar.com/yadis.xrds?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-26 22:52:03 The big activity here at the moment is all about gadgets and gadget containers. But what of RESTful APIs? Does \*every\* site have to follow the Twitter model and create their own? **[George Koiliaris](http://www.wadja.com/petty01?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-27 00:51:43 A really good article. Especially the first part with the Game consoles ;) **[Scott Rafer](http://blog.lookery.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-27 12:35:26 Create their own RESTful API? yes, they do, though there's no reason not to clone others' syntax. And there's no reason to re-build the metering/security/reporting/metrics infrastructure. Mashery does all that as a service bureau. **[Patrick Chanezon](http://wordpress.chanezon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-27 13:51:58 About the REST API, there is one that is being defined in OpenSocial. The spec has been proposed in february in the public spec discussion group, and is finalized these days. http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/docs/dataapis.html http://groups.google.com/group/opensocial-and-gadgets-spec/msg/87df6973a9f94fe1 proposed february http://groups.google.com/group/opensocial-and-gadgets-spec/browse\_thread/thread/d4eecee18d84eea1/259d9ff6c5e06f38?lnk=gst&q=rest#259d9ff6c5e06f38 **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » June 2nd blogging '08](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/06/june-2nd-blogging-08?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-02 12:38:52 \[...\] likes what Chris Messina has to say. Me too. Favorite quotes from this post: I’m coming over to Eran and others‘ point that 1) \[...\] **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » Live Mesh could be Twitter’s Plan B or we might have to do it ourselves](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/06/live-mesh-could-be-twitter%e2%80%99s-plan-b-or-we-might-have-to-do-it-ourselves?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-03 09:56:53 \[...\] In the chaos that we’re building that becomes the open mesh, there are no single winners - ’cause I don’t think Evan Williams is hanging out in Dubai, Moscow or Singapore enough to do that. \[...\] **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » A reference design for building the Open Mesh](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/06/a-reference-design-for-building-the-open-mesh?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-18 09:16:23 \[...\] that others will do it their own way, so any platform for the open mesh must deal with - head on - the anarchy and chaos which we live in today. Google will continue to one-up Facebook and Microsoft, Yahoo is playing catch-up and MySpace \[...\] **[Data Portability | Blogs @ Northern Light](http://blogs.northernlight.com/blog/2008/07/21/data-portability/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-21 07:06:26 \[...\] The Battle for the Future of the Social Web Factory City, May 23, 2008 \[...\] **[Facebook unmasked](http://www.facebookunmasked.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-26 03:17:17 "If you want your information removed from our servers, we can do this for you. However, you need to first log in and delete all profile content. Once you have cleared your account, let us know, and we'll take care of the rest. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause." The email address for privacy issues is privacy@facebook.com. http://www.facebookunmasked.com ### The OpenID mobile experience, part II URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-openid-mobile-experience-part-ii/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:52.000Z In January, I wrote about the "[OpenID mobile experience](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/01/13/the-openid-mobile-experience/?ref=chrismessina.me)" lamenting that it sucked and asking for positive examples of identity providers who got it right. Well, I didn't get a whole lot of examples, but [Ian McKellar](http://ianloic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([Songbird](http://www.songbirdnest.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) did get [inspired](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/01/13/the-openid-mobile-experience/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-98326) to [hack something together](http://ianloic.com/2008/01/13/a-simpler-mobile-openid-workflow/?ref=chrismessina.me) called [Twauth](http://twauth.ianloic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), which serves as the foundation for a flow that I'm going to articulate now. The foundation of Ian's idea is this: > My initial approach was to offer an OpenID URL for phone numbers and use an SMS message containing a one-time password to verify that the person attempting to log in had access to that mobile phone. Unfortunately there's no free web service for sending SMSes, so did the next best thing and built it on top of [Twitter](http://twitter.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Extending this, I have two variations of this proposal, that could work today. I will be using Brightkite as the example service, since they currently do not support OpenID but [should](http://demand.openid.net/site/brightkite.com?ref=chrismessina.me) and are [at least interested](http://getsatisfaction.com/brightkite/topics/support%5Ffor%5Fopenid?ref=chrismessina.me#reply%5F436801). So, given that, here's a proposal for how they could make it happen. ### Single-site mobile sign-in with OpenID The first approach requires no change to the OpenID protocol, but actually leaves out OpenID altogether beyond the initial association, which may or may not be a good idea, security-wise. Regardless, no one says you can't do what I'm about to propose, so here we go. I already have an account with Brightkite, and use a traditional username and password to sign in. Let's assume that Brightkite adds support for OpenID, and allows creating *new* accounts with OpenIDs or allows existing members to associate an OpenID with their account — by verifying against the identity provider — not just adding a URL to their account (as [Beanstalk used to do](http://getsatisfaction.com/beanstalk/topics/beanstalk%5Fshould%5Fnot%5Fask%5Fme%5Ffor%5Fan%5Fopenid%5Fand%5Fthen%5Fnot%5Fverify%5Fit?ref=chrismessina.me)!). Let's also assume that you've associated a phone number with your account. (Now, while you could arguably just use your phone number for this flow, the point is to associate an OpenID with your account and then use it to sign in later.) So, once you've associated your OpenID and your phone number your account: 1. Visit the [mobile Brightkite site](http://i.brighkite.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). 2. If it's not provided on the homepage, click "Sign in with OpenID" (remember, this doesn't exist today). 3. Enter your OpenID and hit "Login". 4. Since you're on the mobile site, we'll assume that you're indicating to Brightkite that you want to use a mobile-friendly flow to authenticate. Since, Brightkite has already associated a verified phone number with your OpenID, they simply send an SMS to that number with a key (probably 5 numerical digits). 5. Once you receive the SMS *from Brightkite*, you return to the login flow and enter the key. 6. If you provide the correct key, Brightkite should log you in successfully, since you've proven that you have control of the phone that's associated with the OpenID you provided. The key to this flow is that you have verified *both* your phone number *and* your OpenID, and so essentially you're transitively substituting an OpenID URL for your phone number. Is this OpenID? Well, insomuch as you can use your OpenID *identifier* to sign in on both the desktop (where the full roundtrip happens) and on your mobile device, I think it's at least compatible in the interim. So why not just use your phone number to sign in? Well, you could, but as I'll describe in the next flow, there might be a way for OpenID providers to do a better job with the mobile experience, and so starting here and training people to use their OpenID URL as opposed to a phone number to sign in to websites (and mobile experiences) seems like a good idea. ### Roundtrip mobile sign-in with OpenID Now, this entire flow is [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) territory, but for the sake of discussion, I'm going to talk about the conceptual flow of OpenID. I recommend that anyone who wants to implement this flow actually look into using OAuth to support this mobile flow. In this flow, we start with the similar presumptions except that instead of storing the mobile number with Brightkite, we're going to store it with the OpenID provider. 1. As before, we start by visiting the [mobile Brightkite site](http://i.brighkite.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). 2. If it's not provided on the homepage, we click "Sign in with OpenID". 3. Enter your OpenID and hit "Login". 4. This time however, we're going to bounce over your OpenID provider where one of three things could happen: 1. If your OpenID provider has a pre-defined mobile flow, or if you're using [directed identity](http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2%5F0.html?ref=chrismessina.me#rfc.section.7.3.1) (as Yahoo does) you'll have to use the standard sign in procedure. This is how things are today. 2. If your identity provider recognizes both your OpenID URL and the relying party URL as a mobile site (i.brightkite.com), it should immediately issue a token (like a five-digit numerical value) to Brightkite and send it (via SMS) to your mobile device. If you can provide that same token to Brightkite, Brightkite should successfully sign you in since you've proven that your identity provider knows that you're trying to authenticate. In this flow, you wouldn't see your identity provider; instead you would likely receive a text message that said "Someone is trying to sign in to Brightkite.com as you. To confirm this request, use this token: \[12345\]." 3. A slight variation to the previous step would be for the relying party (Brightkite) to indicate that it's requesting a mobile flow in its [original request](http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2%5F0.html?ref=chrismessina.me#initiation), if available. This could be as simple as appending "?mobile=true" as a parameter hint to help the OpenID provider use a mobile-friendly authentication dance, rather than trying to recognize the relying party as a mobile site. 5. As before, once you receive the SMS *from Brightkite*, you return to the login flow and enter the key. 6. If you provide the correct key, Brightkite should log you in successfully, since you've proven that you have control of your OpenID identity. The major benefit to this approach is that you're actually authenticating against your OpenID provider. Additionally 1) you never necessarily need to reveal your phone number to the relying party (say, if we weren't talking about Brightkite) and 2) should you change your mobile number, you would only need to change it on the side of your identity provider, rather than on every site that offer a mobile version of their site, to continue to be able to authenticate with your OpenID URL. ### Bonus: Twauth v0.2: using Twitter direct messages Finally, should a service or identity provider not wish to send (or pay for) SMS', the alternative would be to allow someone to associate their Twitter account, via the Twitter API, to their existing account (e.g. their Brightkite account) and then to receive direct messages with the private tokens. The problem with this approach is that it uses Twitter, which may not be reliable, and that it also exposes tokens, via the Twitter API, to any other third-party services that can read your direct messages (basically any other Twitter app that asks for your Twitter account credentials). Still, for testing purposes, Twitter could be a useful intermediary. Thoughts/counter-proposals/arguments? --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Allen Tom](http://www.mybloglog.com/buzz/members/allentomdude?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-17 20:19:54 OpenID is perfect for mobile sites, because registering and logging in is a HUGE PITA, even for devices with keyboards. Any process that reduces keystrokes would be a huge usability win. Instead of sending the user's cell phone number to the RP, it may be better for the OP to provide an OAuth protected messaging API to allow the RP to send SMS (or email) to the user without having to know the user's email address or phone number. Users who do not want to receive any more messages from the RP can just revoke the OAuth token. Additionally, the OP can manage the user's SMS preferences, for instance, users can set limits for the number of SMSes that can be sent to their phone per month in order to avoid getting overcharged by their wireless carrier. Users could also configure their OP to not send SMSes while the user is likely to be asleep. **[http://tomsucks.wordpress.com/](http://tomsucks.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-17 20:25:55 Hook me up with one of those brightkite invites, Chris. **[Ian McKellar](http://ian.mckellar.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-19 08:35:51 Sounds like it's just about time for me to finish up my next generation twauth. I guess I could add an API to allow sites to do non-OpenID-flow authentication of twitter accounts like you suggest. **[Konstantin Weiss](http://konstantinweiss.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-20 02:24:22 Looking forward to see your progress! **[Max Design - standards based web design, development and training » Some links for light reading (20/5/08)](http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2008/05/20/some-links-176/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-20 05:12:52 \[...\] The OpenID mobile experience, part II \[...\] **[Rob Sharp](http://blog.sharp.id.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-20 14:01:29 Nice article! If we make the assumption that most modern mobile handsets recognise a url in an sms body (as i think they do) we can eliminate the cut/paste involved in getting the key from the sms to the webform by including the key in a url inside an sms, which can then be visited to authenticate the mobile user. You'd have to ensure your url length was under the maximum supported, which i guess would vary between handsets. **[Greg Hochmuth](http://www.dotgrex.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-21 01:32:31 I couldn't agree more with Allen's comment that today's mobile login experiences are in dire need of improvement. I like the fact we can rely on the phone number as such a unique and personal token. My thinking even goes so far that there could be be a DNS-like system one day for associating mobile phone numbers with an OpenID record -- I could use it as an alias to my OpenID Url, on a phone or anywhere. (My DNS record could be updated/overwritten by my OpenID provider whenever I successfully claim ownership of the number) But back to mobile login flows: from the user's point of view, I would strongly favor a solution that doesn't require a break in medium, i.e. that doesn't switch from the mobile browser to my SMS inbox and back. Copy/Paste is a poorly supported paradigm on phones and if you ever tried to remember a phone number while switching between two mobile screens, you know how cognitively unpleasant it can be. Even if it's just a short code, it doesn't feel right to rely on the user (and their short-term memory) to do the transfer. What am I missing that makes mobile OpenID so different from web-based authentication? If we come to agree that your OpenID should be responsible for verifying and keeping your phone number on record (I certainly think this makes good sense), then the flow could stay entirely web-based or not? Certainly, OpenID providers would need to support mobile login UIs (and possibly mobile numeric PIN-based password) for an optimal experience but that could be a matter of time given the increasing adoption of mobile web services. Thanks for leading the way on this much-needed discussion, Chris. **[Adrian](http://adrhub.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-22 08:22:11 Hi Chris, I just came agross to your interessting blog about mobile OpenId. I am new to the OpenID topic but have some experience in mobile. In my opinion the success of mobile openID will depend mainly on usability. You have at least to 1\. type in your OpenID each time you access a website 2\. type in the SMS (basically very secure but probably not suitable for mass market. Too many clicks and to much to type on the small displays was (among the slow speed) one of the causes of the the flop of WAP Services at the beginning of this century. The number of inputs and clicks should be reduced. Here my idea: 1\. could be solved by "proactive HTTP header-based Discovery": You pass the openid.server along with in every HTTP request (it is not your personal ID so you don't care...). Then the Relying Party can redirect you automatically to the OP server (so step 1 is automatic). Your mobile browser would need to allow setting the name of your open id server in the HTTP Headers (e.g. x-openid.server: www.myopenid.com/server). (Btw. Firefox already allows setting HTTP headers... so it would make surfing on your PC also more confortable ;-) Alternatively you could configure the mobile browser to use some HTTP Forward Proxy which would insert the HTTP header on your behalf. 2\. Once you are redirected to the OP, this can use permanent cookies to "identify" you and present you directly the password field. Of course this may require an extension of the Open ID standard protocol because any RP willing to provide access to mobile would have to read the HTTP header from the request, but if there is enough interesst around... There is already a HTML-Based Discovery, so why not an HTTP Header based Discovery? What do you think? Adrian **[This Week’s Bookmarks | Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2008-05-25/this-weeks-bookmarks-18/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-24 23:07:22 \[...\] The OpenID mobile experience, part II | FactoryCity \[...\] ### I'm joining Vidoop to work on DiSo full time URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/im-joining-vidoop-to-work-on-diso-full-time/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:51.000Z [](http://twitter.com/kveton/statuses/810618495?ref=chrismessina.me)Well, Twitter, along with Marshall and [his post on ReadWriteWeb](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/messina%5Fnorris%5Fvidoop.php?ref=chrismessina.me), beat me to it, but I'm pretty excited to announce that, yes, [I am joining Vidoop](http://blog.vidoop.com/archives/111?ref=chrismessina.me), [along with Will Norris](http://willnorris.com/2008/04/new-beginnings?ref=chrismessina.me), to work full time on the [DiSo (**di**stributed **so**cial) Project](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). For quite some time I've wanted to get the chance to get back to focusing on the work that I started with [Flock](http://flock.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) — and that I've continued, more or less, with my involvement and advocacy of projects like [microformats](http://microformats.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). These projects don't *accidentally* relate to people using technology to behave socially: they exist to make it easier, and better, for people to use the web (and related technologies) to connect with one another safely, confidently, and without the need to to sign up with any particular network just to talk to their friends and people that they care about. The reality is that people have long been able to connect to one another using technology — what was the first telegraph transmission if not the earliest poke heard round the world? The problem that we have today is that, with the proliferation of fairly large, non-interoperable social networks, it's not as easy as email or telephones have been to connect to people, and so, the next generation of social networks are invariably going to need to make the process of connecting over the divides easier, safer and with less friction if people really are going to, as expected, continue to increase their use of the web for communication and social interaction. ### So what is the DiSo Project? [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2100869875/?ref=chrismessina.me)The [DiSo Project](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) has [humble roots](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/%2006/oauth-10-openid-20-and-up-next-diso?ref=chrismessina.me). Basically [Steve Ivy](http://redmonk.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and I started hacking on a plugin that I'd written that added hcards to your contact list or blogroll. It was really stupidly simple, but when we combined it with Will Norris' [OpenID plugin](http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/openid/?ref=chrismessina.me), we realized that we were on to something — since contact lists were already represented as URLs, we now had a way to verify whether the person who ostensibly owned one of those URLs was leaving a comment, or signing in, and we could thereby add new features, expose private content or any number of other interesting social networking-like thing! This lead me to start "sketching" [ideas for WordPress plugins](http://factoryjoe.pbwiki.com/DistributedSocialNetwork?ref=chrismessina.me) that would be useful in a distributed social network, and eventually Steve came up with the name, registered the domain, and we were off! Since then, [Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) has jumped in and released [additional plugins](http://singpolyma.net/plugins/?ref=chrismessina.me) for [OAuth](http://singpolyma.net/plugins/oauth/?ref=chrismessina.me), [XRDS-Simple](http://singpolyma.net/plugins/xrds-simple/?ref=chrismessina.me), [actionstreams](http://singpolyma.net/plugins/actionstream/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [profile import](http://singpolyma.net/plugins/diso-profile/?ref=chrismessina.me), and this was when the project was just a side project. ### What's this mean? Working full time on this means that Will and I should be able to make much more progress, much more quickly, and to work with other projects and representatives from efforts like [Drupal](http://drupal.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [BuddyPress](http://buddypress.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [MovableType](http://www.movabletype.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) to get interop happening (eventually) between each project's implementation. Will and I will eventually be setting up an office in San Francisco, likely a shared office space (hybrid coworking), so if you're a small company looking for a space in the city, let's talk. Meanwhile, if you want to know more about DiSo in particular, you should probably just check out the [interview I did with myself](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/%2001/23/the-existential-diso-interview?ref=chrismessina.me) about DiSo to get caught up to speed. . . . I'll probably post more details later on, but for now I'm stoked to have the opportunity to work with a really talented and energized group of folks to work on the social layer of the open web. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Tom](http://tomsucks.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 18:59:35 Didn't you just get beat by Google Friend Connect? **Marshall Kirkpatrick** ¡ 2008-05-13 19:01:36 Congrats Chris, I'm really excited for you, for Vidoop and for the web. You already read that once though :) ttys, m **[Anil](http://dashes.com/anil/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 19:02:01 Congrats on the new gig! Looking forward to continuing to work with you guys, only now it's Six Apart working with Vidoop instead of just "hey, let's talk about this stuff more". :) **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 19:12:21 @Tom if by "beat" you mean "validated", then yes! @Anil naw, same as always, but now I'll have code behind my whacked out ideas! **[Lloyd Budd](http://lloydbudd.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 19:31:05 It's wonderful that you continue to follow your passion, and take your expertise to new levels! **[Yan](http://skwpspace.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 20:17:16 Congrats. I think google friend connect coming out is only the beginning of a brave new world of distributed social networking components. I'm going to be keeping an eye on DISO. **[http://terrellrussell.com/](http://terrellrussell.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 20:39:38 woo. congratulations. IIW misses you. **[Colin Brumelle](http://mixedcontent.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 20:44:59 Congrats Chris! Sounds amazing - for us, and for you! **[Ian McKellar](http://ian.mckellar.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 21:20:09 Congratulations! That's great news. I know from the (often heated) discussions that we've hat that you're passionate about this and full of good ideas. Are you moving to Tulsa? Ian **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 21:28:17 Thanks, all, for the well wishes! :#) @Terrell -- man, wish I was there, but having fun in Vegas (doing my slides for tomorrow! ha!) @Ian: Staying in SF actually... mostly of the Vidoop crew is moving to Portland and out of Tulsa. I'll be the SF branch! And yes, I think it's good that we've had the kinds of debates we've had -- such discourse helps sharpen my thinking, and that's always positive. Cheers! **[James Walker](http://walkah.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 21:28:57 Chris, that's really exciting! I'm glad to hear there's a focused, full-time force behind DiSo now! Let's connect soon on Drupal's involvement... Man, you and Kveton in one place - that's scary energy! **[Chris and Will join Vidoop : DiSo Project](http://diso-project.org/2008/05/13/chris-and-will-join-vidoop/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 21:50:47 \[...\] Chris’s Blog \[...\] **[Joe](http://joespurr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 23:23:00 Chris, congrats and good luck! It's great knowing you're on the front lines with this stuff and now dedicating even more time to it. **[http://webcracy.org/](http://webcracy.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 02:07:50 Congratulations Chris! Very exciting news. More rhythm, more volume :) Cheers **[links for 2008-05-14 « Breyten’s Dev Blog](http://breyten.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/links-for-2008-05-14/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 03:31:32 \[...\] I?m joining Vidoop to work on DiSo full time (tags: citizen-centric web digital identity microformats open source technology building what i do work diso oauth openid vidoop xrds-simple) \[...\] **[Joseph Smarr](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 06:18:21 Wow, congrats Chris, and what a coup for Vidoop! :) I think a lot of good will come from DiSo beyond even the basic experiences you're enabling because it really tries to "put the pieces together" and that's always how you discover what's missing and what else can be made possible. So I eagerly await to see how it progresses! **[Distributed Social Networkers | monkinetic weblog archive](http://redmonk.net/archives/2008/05/14/distributed-social-networkers/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 07:06:00 \[...\] Chris’s post \[...\] **[Brian Oberkirch](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 07:44:24 Wahoo! Love this news. Stoked that Vidoop & Scott are getting behind DiSo like this. Great for you, them & the whole community. **[Andy Peatling](http://apeatling.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 07:51:30 Congratulations Chris! This is fantastic news. I'm eagerly looking forward to seeing DiSo progress and I'm sure this will give you the time you need to make that happen. **[Carsten PĂśtter](http://notsorelevant.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 08:27:46 Congrats, Chris. I'm looking forward to the development of DiSo. Will you stay involved with Citizen Agency, though? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 08:31:45 Again, thanks all! @Carsten: Great question. I was going to do a follow up post on this, but the summary answer is: yes, I will continue to be the owner of Citizen Agency, and Tara will continue to work with Citizen Agency, especially as she gets ready to start promoting her book and continues speaking. She will also continue to run Citizen Space, so that's not going to change either. I will be ceasing my day-to-day consulting gigs, however, though still intend to stay involved, if not more active, in my many community projects! Good question! **[Benjamin Stover](http://stechz.myvidoop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 09:21:53 Welcome to Vidoop, Chris :) Looking forward to seeing what comes out of DiSo now that you'll have more time to play with it. **[Vidoop secures Messina and Norris » Silicon Florist](http://siliconflorist.com/2008/05/14/vidoop-secures-messina-and-norris/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 13:38:27 \[...\] Messina posted some of his thoughts about his new gig, highlighting: Working full time on this means that Will and I should be able to make much more progress, much more quickly, and to work with other projects and representatives from efforts like Drupal, BuddyPress and MovableType to get interop happening (eventually) between each project’s implementation. \[...\] **[Why I’m going to Vidoop](http://willnorris.com/2008/05/why-im-going-to-vidoop?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 23:52:42 \[...\] it’s not exactly news at this point, but it is indeed true that as of today I am now employed by Vidoop. This has been a \[...\] **[Greg Biggers](http://gregbiggers.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-15 15:29:15 Congratulations. Hopefully we will get to do something together as it relates the enterprise side of things. What does this development mean for your citizen agency work? **[Mike Jones](http://self-issued.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-15 16:55:11 Congratulations Chris! -- Mike **[Beau Lebens](http://dentedreality.com.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-15 18:11:56 Congratulations Chris, and awesome to hear that DiSo is (effectively) getting some corporate backing. Paying those bills is important, and I'm sure with you guys at the helm the project will start gathering some (more) momentum and direction. I look forward to (trying to) keeping up with it all. **[Phil Wolff](http://skypejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-16 00:32:02 Mazel Tov, Chris! **[Awed Job](http://awed.job.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-19 08:48:01 Thank goodness you are working on this and that I found DiSo. I'm a humble artist who knows just enough html to get by. Ever since the annihilation of a much-loved social network, http://zefrank.org, my friends and I have been searching for a new home. After much spinning of the wheels we all realized that a bunch of creative types just didn't have the skill set to do it on our own. We are looking to recapture the environment of praise, sharing and collaboration. We need to avoid the single point of failure that doomed us on "the ORG". With something like DiSo, it seems like we can mix up our own recipe that suits our pallets. What can I do to help? **[Nate Westheimer](http://innonate.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-21 06:58:49 Wow -- cool. Just reading this and very pumped for you and the DiSo movement. **[Paul Kim](http://numenity.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-22 21:30:35 Hey Chris: congrats! Best of luck to you and Kveton at Vidoop. **mike whalen** ¡ 2008-05-24 14:15:39 Congratulations. Go change the internet world. Mike **[luke dorny](http://lukedorny.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-27 21:05:00 Congratulations, Chris. This is exactly the type of work that you excel at. Great job. **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » June 5th blogging - '08](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/06/june-5th-blogging-08?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 12:30:45 \[...\] Add PeopleAggregator to the list of social networks which will be DiSO compatible - for sure! \[...\] **[WordPress wird OpenID-Provider at notizBlog - a private weblog written by Matthias Pfefferle](http://notizblog.org/2008/09/17/wordpress-wird-openid-provider/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-17 22:24:21 \[...\] Trotz dieser kleinen Fehler merkt man, dass sich Will Norris fĂźr diese Version sehr viel Zeit (die er sicherlich auch hatte) genommen hat und ich bin sehr gespannt auf die fertige \[...\] ### Thoughts on DataPortability URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/thoughts-on-dataportability/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:50.000Z ### Introduction Over the last several days I've started and abandoned four drafts of this post. Usually it doesn't take me this long to write out my thoughts, or to go through so many different approaches, but I wanted to express myself as clearly as I could given the amount and overlapping texture of what I wanted to say. I ended up gutting a lot, and tried to focus on some basics, making as few assumptions about the reader (you) as possible. The reality is that I'm eyeballs-deep in this stuff, and realized that in earlier drafts, I had included a lot of subtext that just wasn't helping me get my message across and that really only made sense to other folks similarly in the thick of it. So I got rid of the subterfuge and divided this up into four sections, inspired by a conversation I had with [Brynn](http://brynnevans.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). I encourage and invite feedback, but I would prefer to discuss the substance of what I'm arguing, rather than focusing on tit-for-tat squabbly disagreements. 1. [What is data portability?](#what-is-data-portability) 2. [How does DataPortability (DP) relate to OpenID?](#how-does-dataportability-relate-to-openid) 3. [Are there risks associated with DataPortability?](#are-there-risks-associated-with-dataportability) 4. [What's good about DataPortability?](#what-s-good-about-dataportability) ### What is data portability? Contrary to what some folks have [argued](http://www.mediaslate.org/wp/2008/04/15/dataportability-name-stumbling-block?ref=chrismessina.me), I think that the semantics and meaning of the phrase "data portability" are important. To me *data portability* denotes the act of *moving* data from one place to another, and that the data should, therefore, be thought of like a physical thing, with physical properties. Let me draw an analogy here to illustrate the problem with this model. Take an iPod. With an iPod, you literally copy files from one device to another — for example, from your laptop to your iPod. This is, on the one hand, a limitation imposed by a lack of *connectivity* and restrictions in copyright law, but on the other, is actually by design. This scenario is not altogether unmanageable unless you have dozens of iPods that you want to sync up with your music, especially if you don't typically think to connect your iPod every time you add new music, create new playlists or otherwise change your music library. Now take an always-connected player, like [Pandora Mobile](http://pandora.com/on-the-go?from%5Fhome=1&ref=chrismessina.me), where the model works by federating continuous access from a central source — to consuming devices that play back music. Ignoring the [DMCA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA?ref=chrismessina.me) restrictions that make it impossible for Pandora to let you listen to what you want *on demand*, the point is that, rather than making numerous copies across many unaffiliated and disconnected devices, Pandora affords a consistent experience and uniform access by streaming live data to any device that is authorized (and is online). The former model (the iPod) is what you might call the "desktop model of data portability". Certainly you can copy your data and take it with you, but it doesn't reflect a model where always-on connectivity is assumed, which is the situation with online social networks. The *offline* model works well for physical devices that don't require an internet connection to function — but it is a model that fails for services like Pandora, that requires connectivity, and whose value derives from ready access to up-to-date and current information, streamed and accessible from anywhere (well, [except in Canada](http://blog.pandora.com/pandora/archives/2007/05/canada.html?ref=chrismessina.me)). It's nuance, but it's critical to conceptualizing the value and import of this shift, and it's nuance which I think is often left out of the explanation of "DataPortability" (whose official definition is the option to share or **move** your personal data between trusted applications and vendors (**emphasis** added)). In my mind, when the arena of application is the open, always-on, hyper-connected web, constructing best practices using an *offline* model of data is fraught with fundamental problems and distractions and is ultimately destined to fail, since the phrase is immediately obsolete, unable to capture in its essence contemporary developments in the cloud concept of computing (which consists of [follow-your-nose](http://dannyayers.com/2007/12/08/another-little-abstraction?appendLang=en&ref=chrismessina.me) URIs and URLs rather than discreet harddrives), and in the move towards push-based subscription models that are [real-time and addressable](http://gillmorgang.techcrunch.com/2008/05/09/gillmor-gang-050908/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-350). So if you ask me what is "data portability", I'll concede that it's a symbol for starting a conversation about what's wrong with the state of social networks. Beyond that, I think there's a great danger that, as a result of framing the current opportunity around "data portability", the story that will get picked up and retold will be the about *copying data* between social networks, rather than the more compelling, more future-facing, and frankly more likely situation of data *streaming* from trusted brokered sources to downstream authorized consumers. But, I guess "copying" and "moving" data is easier to grasp conceptually, and so that's what I think a lot of people will think when they hear the phrase. In any case, it gets the conversation started, and from there, where it goes, is anyone's guess. ### How does DataPortability (DP) relate to OpenID? [OpenID](http://www.openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), along with [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), [microformats](http://www.microformats.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [RSS](http://www.rssboard.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [OPML](http://www.opml.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [RDF](http://www.w3.org/rdf?ref=chrismessina.me), [APML](http://www.apml.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [XMPP](http://www.xmpp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) are all open and non-proprietary technologies — formats and protocols — that grace the [DataPortability homepage](http://dataportability.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). How they ended up on the homepage, or [what selection criteria is used to pick them](http://groups.google.com/group/dataportability/browse%5Fthread/thread/dcf1af0e1f67dc8e?ref=chrismessina.me), is beyond me (for example, I would have added ATOM to the list). So the best way that I can describe the relationship between any of these technologies and DataPortability is that, at some point, the powers that be within the group decided to throw a logo on their homepage and add it to their "social software stack". To reiterate (and I won't speak for the [OpenID Foundation](http://openid.net/foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me) since I'm unfamiliar with any conversations that they might have had with DP), no one necessarily asked if it would be okay to put the OAuth or microformats logos on the homepage of DP, or to include those technologies in the DP stack. They just did it. It wasn't like DP had been around for awhile with a mandate to develop best practices for the future of social networks, and groups like the microformats community petitioned or was nominated to be included. They simply were. There was no process, as far as I'm aware, as to what was included, and what was not. So while OpenID and the other technologies may be part of the technologies recommended by DP, it should be known that there really is no official relationship between these efforts and DP (though it is true that many members of each group coordinate, meet and discuss related topics, for example, at tomorrow's [Internet Identity Workshop](http://iiw.idcommons.net/index.php/Iiw2008a?ref=chrismessina.me), and at events like the [Data Sharing Summit](http://datasharingsummit.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Beyond that, it should be noted that OpenID, OAuth, microformats et al have been in development for the last several years, and have been building up momentum and communities all on their own, without and prior to the existence of the DP initiative. In fact, the DP project really only got its start last November with [an idea presented](http://groups.google.com/group/dataportability/browse%5Fthread/thread/3189cdabb95b8d78?ref=chrismessina.me) by Josh Patterson and Josh Lewis called [WRFS](http://cowbell.floe.tv/WRFS.html?ref=chrismessina.me), or the "Web Relational File System". At the time, the WRFS was intended to serve as a "[reference design](http://dataportability.pbwiki.com/FrontPage.2007-12-01-01-28-23?ref=chrismessina.me#CurrentWork)" for describing how data portability should work and this was to serve as the foundation of the DP recommendations. In January, after ongoing discussions, Josh decided that [it would be best to spin WRFS off into its own project](http://groups.google.com/group/dataportability/browse%5Fthread/thread/78eb54b52fd068d0/ba63982d61c104ae??ref=chrismessina.me#ba63982d61c104ae) and started a separate [mailing list](http://groups.google.com/group/wrfs?ref=chrismessina.me), leaving DP to focus exclusively on evangelizing existing technologies and communities and, in the oft-repeated words of Chris Saad, to *invent nothing new* (a [mantra](http://eran.sandler.co.il/2007/09/22/oauth-10-public-draft-another-brick-in-the-wall/?ref=chrismessina.me) inherited from the OAuth and microformats efforts). ### Are there risks associated with DataPortability? If you accept that DP is primarily a symbol for starting the conversation about transforming social networks from walled gardens into interoperating, [seamful](http://www.sics.se/~kia/seamfulness.html?ref=chrismessina.me) web services, then no, not really. If you believe or buy into the hype, or blindly follow the forthcoming "[technical specifications](http://wiki.dataportability.org/display/dpmain/Technical+Specifications?ref=chrismessina.me)", I see significant risks that need to addressed. First, DP does not speak for the community as a whole, for any specific social network (except, perhaps, MySpace), or for any individuals except those who publicly align themselves with the group. On too many occasions to feel comfortable about, I've seen or read members of the DP project claim authority far beyond any reasonable mandate, which to me have read like attempts to seize control and influence that not only isn't justified, but that shouldn't be ascribed to any individual or organization. I worry that this hubris (conceivably a result of proximity to certain A-Listers) is leading them to take more credit than they're due, and in consequence, folks interested but previously uninitiated with any of the core technologies will be lead to believe that the DataPortability group is responsible and in control of those technologies. Furthermore, if it is the case that people are mislead, I have little faith that folks from the DP project will prevent themselves from speaking on behalf of (or pseudo-knowledgeably about) those technologies, leading to confusion and potential damage. Second, I have a great deal of concern about the experiences and priorities that are playing into the group's approach to privacy, security, publicity and disclosure. These are concerns that I would have with [any effort that aims to bridge](http://www.webware.com/8301-1%5F109-9938698-2.html?tag=frontdoor&ref=chrismessina.me) different social or commercial contexts where norms and expectations have already been established, and where there exists few examples (apart from Beacon) of how people actually respond to semi-automatic social network cross-fertilization. Not that privacy isn't a [hot](http://groups.google.com/group/dataportability-public/search?group=dataportability-public&q=privacy&qt%5Fg=Search+this+group&ref=chrismessina.me) [topic](http://groups.google.com/group/dataportabilityactionpolicy/search?group=dataportabilityactionpolicy&q=privacy&qt%5Fg=Search+this+group&ref=chrismessina.me) on the DP mailing lists, it's just that [statements](http://groups.google.com/group/dataportability-public/msg/f010df9e4b4278c2?ref=chrismessina.me) like this one reflects *fishtailing* in the definition and approach to privacy from a leader of the group, and that I worry could skid wildly out of control if clarity on *how* to achieve these dictims isn't developed very soon: > The thing is that while Privacy is certainly important, in the end these are \*social\* platforms. By definition they are about sharing. The problem with Facebook Beacon was not that it was sharing, but rather it was sharing the WRONG information in the WRONG way. Also again, don't forget, just because data is portable or accessible does NOT mean it is public or 'open'. This is why I stayed away from the 'Open Data' terminology when thinking up DataPortability. Just like a Hard Drive and a PC that runs certain applications, ultimately the applications that USE the data that need to ensure they treat the data with respect - or users will simply stop using them. \[. . .\] You are right that DP should NOT be positioned that Privacy is not important - that is certainly not my intention with my answers. But being important and being a major sticking point is two different things. Again I tend to think of this as one big Hard Disk. While you provide read/write permissions to folders on a network (for privacy) it is ultimately up to the people and applications you trust to respect your privacy and not just start emailing your word docs to your friends. So if the second risk is that an unrealistic, [naive](http://wiki.dataportability.org/display/dpmain/Social+Disclosure+Checklist?ref=chrismessina.me) or [incomplete](http://wiki.dataportability.org/display/dpmain/Definitions+of+privacy?ref=chrismessina.me) model of privacy \[coupled with a [lack of effective enforcement mechanisms](http://wiki.dataportability.org/display/dpmain/Frequently+Asked+Questions?showChildren=false&ref=chrismessina.me#FrequentlyAskedQuestions-HowcanIensuremysecurityandprivacyaremaintained%3F) in the case of fraud or abuse\] will be promoted by the DP group, the third risk is that groups or communities that are roped into the DP initiative may open themselves up to a latent social backlash should something go wrong with specific implementations of DataPortability [best practices](http://wiki.dataportability.org/display/dpmain/Best+Practices+Documents?ref=chrismessina.me). Specifically, if the final privacy model demands certain approaches to user data, and companies or organizations go along with them by adopting the provided "social technology stack" (i.e. libraries offered that implement the DP data model), the technical implementation may be flawless, but if people's data starts showing up in places where they didn't expect it to, they may reject the whole notion of "data portability" and seek to retreat back to the days of "safe" walled gardens of today. And it may be that, because of the emphasis on specific technologies in the DP group's propaganda, that brands like OpenID and OAuth will become associated with negative experiences, like downloadable .exes in email are today. It's not a foregone conclusion in my mind that this future is inevitable, but it's one that the individual groups affected should avoid at all costs, if only because of the significant progress we've made to date on our own, and it would be a shame if ignorance or lack of clear communication about the proper methods of adoption and implementation of these technologies lead people to blame the technology means instead of particular instances of its application. ### What's good about DataPortability? I don't want to just be a negative creep, so I do think that there is a silver lining to the DP initiative, which I mentioned earlier: it provides a token phrase that we can throw around to tease out some of the more gnarly issues involved in developing future *social applications*. It *is* about [having a conversation](http://vimeo.com/990474?ref=chrismessina.me). While OpenID and OAuth have actual technology and implementations behind them, they also serve as symbols for having conversations about identity and authorization, respectively. Similarly, microformats helps us to think about lightweight semantic markup that we can embed in human-friendly web pages that are also compatible with *today's* web browsers, and that additionally make those pages easier for machines to parse. And before these symbols, we had AJAX and Web 2.0, both of which, during their inception, were equally controversial and offensive to the folks who knew the details of the underlying technological innovation behind the terms but who also stood to lose their shamanic positions if simpler language were adopted as the conversations migrated into the mainstream. Now, is there a risk that we might lose some of the nuance and sophistication with which we data junkies and user-centric identity advocates communicate if we adopt a less precise term to describe the present trends towards interoperable social networks? Absolutely. But this also means that, as the phrase "data portability" makes its way into common conversation, people can begin to think about their social networking activities and what they take for granted ("Wait, you mean that I wouldn't have to sign up for a new account on my friend's social network just to send them a photo? Really?"), and to realize that the way things are today not only aren't the way that they *have* to be, but that there is a *better way* for social applications to be designed, architected and presented, that give the enthusiasts and customers of these services greater choice and greater latitude to actually pick services that — what else? — *serve* them best! So just as Firefox gave rise to a generation of web developers that take web standards much more seriously, and have in turn recognized and capitalized on the power of having a "[rectangle](http://fluidapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)" that actually behaves in a way that they expect (meaning that it [fully complies with the standards as they've been defined](http://webkit.org/blog/173/webkit-achieves-acid3-100100-in-public-build/?ref=chrismessina.me)), I think the next evolution of the social web is going to be one where we take certain things, like identity, like portable contact lists, like better and more consistent permissioning systems as givens, and as a result, will lead to much more interesting, more compelling, and, perhaps even more lucrative, uses of the open social web. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[MyMesh.com](http://mymesh.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-11 20:32:47 Good points. **[Lachlan Hardy](http://lachstock.com.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-11 21:00:18 Fantastic post, Chris. I'm very happy to see somebody elucidate so clearly the current situation in a relatively unbiased fashion. However, pointing to those references from DP documents is only going to lead to more cries of: "We're not up to that phase yet!" Also, the blinkered mention of OpenID and OAuth as symbols for conversation caught me wrong. They are, of course, and I understand that you're simplifying, but they're not the only symbols that lead to conversations on identity and authorisation. Lastly, I agree that the phrase 'data portability' serves very well as an equivalent to 'Ajax', 'Web 2.0' etc however you fail to distinguish the phrase explicitly from the group. I can't see how we can expect those not actively in the community (and how does one define that?) to understand that 'data portability' is not sourced from [http://dataportability.org/"](http://dataportability.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) in some fashion. Then again, if the big players in the DP group continue to deliberately dilute and obscure the message as per MySpace's recent 'Data Availability' announcement unchecked, we might be looking for a new phrase to symbolise the conversation! **[Scott Blomquist](http://scott.blomqui.st/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-11 21:21:23 Very nice analysis. I think that to the unwashed masses, data portability will ultimately be about "never having to type the same crap into the web ever again". Of course, in the meanwhile, we'll have the just-informed-enough-to-be-dangerous technical crowd to try to keep as unconfused as possible. **[Josh Patterson](http://openid.aol.com/jpatanooga?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-11 21:54:00 This is a really good post, Chris, and earlier in the week I posted some similar sentiments on floe.tv's development blog, http://news.floe.tv/index.php/2008/04/20/where-do-you-think-youre-going/ basically asserting that I believe that the term "data portability" is more the beginning of a conversation and less of an endpoint. I'm less of a fan of dp "best practice" documents and more of a fan of devs at the tip of the long tail getting together, linking their apps together via open data, and showing the internet how open can be better: http://jpatterson.floe.tv/index.php/2008/05/10/stone-soup/ When we sketched up WRFS I never intended to push that towards some "this is how you do it" type situation, I always thought of it more as a "hey, wanna share data with us? lets get together, maybe we can offer more value for less". I think this needs to be more of an evolutionary, organic process and less of a "dictated from on high" scenario. I also concur that there is a perfect storm scenario where the user could be setup to fail in such a way that they would be screaming back to the walled gardens, which does no one good, and its a scenario best avoided. Regardless, I think we are on the cusp of the linked data era, which will bring about the semantic era of the web, and I feel this can bring large "tectonic shifts" in how the web looks and works economically, http://jpatterson.floe.tv/index.php/2008/05/10/its-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it/ keep it coming, and I need more DiSo code to come out, we need more people with XRDS files to use in our app! Josh Patterson **[David Recordon](http://www.davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-11 21:57:21 Great post, as you know we think quite similarly when it comes to this stuff. You have a good point that one of the values of Data Portability is already giving people a brand they can start to rally around. The importance of that shouldn't be underestimated. While you mention AJAX, I don't think that is anywhere near as common of a brand as Web 2.0\. The question in my mind then becomes if Data Portability should be this next brand of where the web is going? **[Responses to DataPortability questions « Paying Attention](http://chrissaad.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/responses-to-dataportability-questions/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-11 22:22:21 \[...\] 12, 2008 Chris Messina has posted a fantastic post on his blog about DataPortability. It is a real pleasure to read his thoughtful and well articulated questions, concerns and \[...\] **[Chris Saad](http://www.chrissaad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-11 22:24:15 Great post Chris - some responses from me: http://chrissaad.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/responses-to-dataportability-questions/ **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-11 23:13:54 @Lachlan Good points. You're right about the wiki apologists... I pointed to those pages because I'm waiting for them to be filled, but it really points to the need for a "stub" distinction -- as in, this page is not finished -- it's just a placeholder! However, so many pages on the wiki are like this, you wonder when they'll ever get attended to! I brought up OpenID and OAuth as symbols probably because I'm biased towards them. When people as me what I'm working on, I mentioned these technologies, which invariably lead to conversations about online identity and safer transmitting of data between services. In that way, they serve me as tokens, but are certainly not the \*only\* or even \*primary\* symbols for taking about identity and related topics! In earlier drafts I spent some time talking about camelcase DataPortability™ (the brand) and 'data portability' (the kind of data that is moveable). I decided to remove it from this post simply because it harkens back to conversations about BarCamp, trademarks, community marks, centralization and whatnot. I actually had quite a bit decrying the group's odd penchant to centralize into a formal body already when in most cases that slows things down or leads to the exact politics that the group claims to want to avoid. Well, you can see I could probably write a whole post on that topic, hence I left it out of this one! I also had written up something about the MySpace 'data availability' thing, which, ironically, is actually pretty close to the model that I see in the future -- the model that will simply ape the "portability moment". @Josh Thanks for stopping by. I do think that a lot of your thinking here is applicable, and a lot of the stuff you guys have come up fits this model pretty well. I do agree that getting in there and solving problems, with real uses cases is going to be key, and I appreciate the nudge to get more code into DiSo, and getting more sites to adopt DiSo tech! Don't worry, things'll be heating up shortly! ;) I also appreciate you pointing out that WRFS was never intended to be the final spec for the DP project, but that it sort of (or seemed to) inherit that role. Anyway, I'm glad that you spun it out when you did. @David I think that for developers, AJAX is very common! But you're right, for the wider media and enterprise/business markets, Web 2.0 has really taken hold and vaguely represents "non-1.0 type websites". I think we're at a point now where people would be able to tell whether a site is "2.0 or not" -- just by looking at it. Eventually that might be the case for sites that are designed as services -- by supporting OpenID, allowing people to pull in their data using OAuth, allowing them to subscribe to their remote hcard-based profiles. Of course, all this is the behind-the-scenes, but it's nonetheless worth considering, since the Web 2.0 meme is starting to get a bit old in the Valley (and 3.0 is kind of a frightful, though semi-inevitable next age). @Chris Wow, you're fast dude. I'll read up -- thanks for taking the time! **[Dan Donald](http://hereinthehive.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-12 02:08:46 Great post, Chris! I've also been mulling over the practical implications on a short post on my blog: http://www.hereinthehive.com/2008/05/04/identity-and-control/ There's obviously an issue past the vast array you've mentioned such as the integrity of hosting 'identity profiles' and which companies or hosts would you trust to host your identity and preferences? I think if the community can get this nailed, it really will transform the web; how social networks differentiate themselves - what do they offer to people that can up sticks and walk away? **[Christian Scholz](http://mrtopf.de/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-12 04:51:34 Hey Chris, great post! Many good points I can understand and agree on. My hope is though that more conversation between all those groups is going on (where I mean constructive ones which did not always happen in the past). I personally am involved more into DP mostly because I found this more approachable than e.g. DiSo (as I am not coding in PHP and not for WP and for now it seems to be more code than documentation. I still think it's a good and important project of course). In the end I think we all have the sort of an similar idea that data should be more free (then again I think for sync it would be more useful to have a central store like your OpenID provider from where services sync their local copy but that's a different discussion). Having said this I find it a bit sad to see some of these little flame wars popping up here and there. Sitting not in the valley and being sort of an outsider when it comes to all the existing communities (like OpenID, Oauth etc.) I wonder where all this comes from as to me at least it was always clear that DP does not want to "eat" those standards but use existing ones where possible. As for the process of which one gets choosen (yes, Atom should be in there) that's a difficulty question, esp. as there always seems to be very dogmatic persons in each community (like MF vs. FOAF) who say that "we solved it all, something else to use is wrong wrong wrong" (that's at least how it sounds for me from coming into these discussions relatively from the outside). So my proposal would always be to look what's already deployed out there and does the job. For e.g. profiles I would then come up with FOAF/VCard and hCard. Of course such things will always be debated. In the end I think the market will decide. I doubt that we will really end up with some sort of trustmark. Vendors will always try to do something differently and I think the main job we can really do here is do stir up discussions and to promote the idea. I think both DP and DiSo really have done this and will continue to do so. The process of coming up with a solution will be incremental anyway by bouncing ideas back and forth and improving them. So what I would really wish for is that there would be more talk between those different projects and communities. It even seems that we all come up with similar ideas and proposals (e.g. regarding service discovery via XRDS which apparently is in the air though) so it can only be details about what we argue. For me at least it's not important what group will "win". For me it's important to be able to discuss some ideas with people and to have a broad spectrum of libraries (in a broad spectrum of languages). That's why I started pdataportability which is not so much about DataPortability but about all those standards related to data portability in general (like XRDS, Microformats, FOAF etc.). Ok, enough said.. hope it makes sense :-) **[Developing in an Open world and Some posts around data portability | Here in the Hive](http://www.hereinthehive.com/2008/05/12/developing-in-an-open-world-and-some-posts-around-data-portability/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-12 04:53:38 \[...\] of all, Chris Messina has a great lengthy post about data portability, which explains a bit about it, the good, the bad, \[...\] **[Identity Woman » Chris & Chris on Data Portability](http://www.identitywoman.net/?p=767&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-12 07:28:30 \[...\] Chris Mesina has a great post up about data portability. \[...\] **\=andy** ¡ 2008-05-12 07:59:43 Hi Chris, Would love the opportunity to share some details with you on ooTao's work. We have implemented integrations between 90% of the standards that you list and have learned a great deal in the process. Our 'DataWeb Server' is an implementation of, as you say: " data streaming from trusted brokered sources to downstream authorized consumers". We would love to get more involved in DataPortabilty.org... How do we do that? **[Nodalities » Blog Archive » This Week’s Semantic Web](http://blogs.talis.com/nodalities/2008/05/this-weeks-semantic-web-4.php?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-12 10:04:00 \[...\] Thoughts on DataPortability, The care and feeding of online relationships, DataPortability, SPARQL and the “Connect!” button \[...\] **[Picking up on a meme](http://www.lk9.se/2008/05/12/picking-up-on-a-meme/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-12 12:46:26 \[...\] on the subject of Data portability I highly recommend Chris Messina’s post about it, not because I agree with everything but because he highlights the complexity of the \[...\] **[DataPortability Pfingsten at notizBlog - a private weblog written by Matthias Pfefferle](http://notizblog.org/2008/05/12/dataportability-pfingsten/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-12 12:46:43 \[...\] auch bald meinen Senf dazu geben Lesenswert ist außerdem noch Chris Messinas (DiSo) Artikel Thoughts on DataPortability und Chris Saads (DataPortability) Antwort Responses to DataPortability questions. ÂŤ \[...\] **[Marc Canter](http://marc.blogs.it/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-12 16:03:31 Great thread so far - I just wish we were all sitting around the Google campfire this evening, holding hands, roasting marshmellows and thinking about our brothers and sisters up in Redmond, our brethren at Facebook (espousing on 'dynamic privacy', our cohorts down in LaLa (and SOMA) trying to move that giant called MySpace in a widget direction. Oh yah and the rocket scientists at Yahoo. This whole movement of data movement needs to be expanded by discussions on interoperability, testing labs need to be set up (to make sure systems are compatible with each other) and maybe one day we'll be able to start showing vendors and other platforms - why opening up is a good thing. See you all on Thursday. **[links for 2008-05-13 « Derivadow.com](http://derivadow.com/2008/05/13/links-for-2008-05-13/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 10:33:46 \[...\] Chris Messina’s thoughts on DataPortability \[FactoryCity\] A very thoughtful post about the pros and cons of dataportability.org Data Portability is giving people a brand to rally around but there are risks including an unrealistic, naive or incomplete model of privacy. (tags: dataportability openid oauth) \[...\] **[Lukas Rosenstock](http://0700lukasros.de/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 11:22:49 Great post! I think the emphasis is important that the term Data Portability is not some technology waiting to be implemented but rather an idea how thinks can be done better than today and the discussion how it is done. And it will take some time, where I'm not sure whether the building blocks (OpenID, OAuth, Microformats ...) have to be established first and then used or if Data Portability is the "killer app" that gives these building blocks their breakthrough. **[DataPortability Fatigue at notizBlog - a private weblog written by Matthias Pfefferle](http://notizblog.org/2008/05/13/dataportability-fatigue/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 11:42:48 \[...\] seinem Artikel Ăźber DataPortability und Chris Saads Antwort, äußert sich Chris Messina nochmals sehr kritisch zu dem Thema in \[...\] **[FredCavazza.net » Ouverture des rĂŠseaux sociaux, la route sera longue…](http://www.fredcavazza.net/2008/05/13/ouverture-des-reseaux-sociaux-la-route-sera-longue/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 11:48:36 \[...\] Contre toute attente, c’est donc MySpace qui a ouvert le bal avec le lancement de Data Availbility, une initiative visant Ă  partager les donnĂŠes des membres de My Space avec les services partenaires (Yahoo, Ebay, Twitter). Comprenez par lĂ  que MySpace ouvre une partie de son système d’information pour laisser d’autres services accĂŠder au profil des membres, Ă  leurs photos, Ă  leurs vidĂŠos et Ă  leur liste d’amis. Plus d’infos ici : MySpace Embraces DataPortability, Partners With Yahoo, Ebay And Twitter. A priori une belle preuve d’ouverture mais Ă  posteriori une belle dĂŠmonstration de verrouillage des membres : “Laissez donc vos donnĂŠes personnelles chez moi (et moi seul) pour que les autres services puissent y accĂŠder (et vous rendre encore plus dĂŠpendant)“. MĂŞme si les mĂŠcanismes proposĂŠs sont suffisamment sophistiquĂŠs pour autoriser de la synchronisation de listes d’amis ou du mashup social, je ne peux que rester mĂŠfiant vis Ă  vis de cette annonce. Il existe en effet un groupe de travail qui a ĂŠtĂŠ crĂŠĂŠ pour traiter de ce genre de questions (Data Portability), pourquoi vouloir faire cavalier seul ? En fait la rĂŠponse Ă  cette question se trouve dans le nom de l’initiative : dans Data Portability il y a “portage” alors que dans Data Availability il y a “disponibilité“, et c’est bien lĂ  oĂš la diffĂŠrence se trouve : ce projet ne vous permet de sortir vos donnĂŠes personnelles pour les mettre ailleurs, elle permet juste Ă  d’autres services d’y avoir accès. VoilĂ  donc une belle illusion d’ouverture que nous offre MySpace. Pour en savoir plus, je vous recommande la très bonne analyse suivante : Thoughts on Data Portability. \[...\] **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » Mid-May '08 blogging](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/05/mid-may-08-blogging?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 12:07:09 \[...\] There’s an on-going discussion attached to FactoryJoe’s post on ‘Thoughts on Datap... \[...\] **[links for 2008-05-14 « Breyten’s Dev Blog](http://breyten.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/links-for-2008-05-14/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 03:30:48 \[...\] Thoughts on DataPortability (tags: citizen-centric web digital identity microformats technology the arts building criticism dataportability) \[...\] **[In a User Centric Web I get to control my data « Alexander van Elsas’s Weblog on new media & technologies and their effect on social behavior](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/in-a-user-centric-web-i-get-to-control-my-data/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-14 23:44:08 \[...\] believe this is what FactoryJoe is also working on. He wrote an excellent post on Data portabilty. He can get a bit technical for those that don’t like the inner workings of technology too \[...\] **[Recent Links on Ma.gnolia at Fast Wonder Blog](http://fastwonderblog.com/2008/05/17/recent-links-on-magnolia-18/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-16 23:02:18 \[...\] Thoughts on DataPortability | FactoryCity \[...\] **[This Week’s Bookmarks at Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2008-05-18/this-weeks-bookmarks-17/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-17 23:02:13 \[...\] Thoughts on DataPortability | FactoryCity \[...\] **[I don’t pay attention to that anymore… « Derivadow.com](http://derivadow.com/2008/05/18/i-dont-pay-attention-to-that-anymore/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-18 13:38:04 \[...\] from one system to the next. I just don’t believe that that is how the Internet works. As Chris Messina puts it (in relation to dataportability.org): In my mind, when the arena of application is the \[...\] **[Learning Aesthetics - Breadcrumbs](http://www.sightwork.org/la/2008/05/breadcrumbs/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-19 07:07:04 \[...\] point, "All authentication fails." Actually it may have started with Chris Mesina’s Thoughts on Data Portability over on FactoryCity. Despite the DP handle this turns out to be relatively comprehensible those of \[...\] **[This Week’s Bookmarks | Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2008-05-25/this-weeks-bookmarks-18/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-24 23:06:38 \[...\] Thoughts on DataPortability | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Learning Aesthetics - Breadcrumbs](http://www.sightwork.org/la/2008/05/breadcrumbs-2/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-08 06:27:21 \[...\] “All authentication fails.” Actually it may have started with Chris Mesina’s Thoughts on Data Portability over on FactoryCity. Despite the DP handle this turns out to be relatively comprehensible those of \[...\] **[Ouverture des rĂŠseaux sociaux, la route sera longue… | MĂŠdias sociaux](http://www.mediassociaux.com/2008/05/13/ouverture-des-reseaux-sociaux-la-route-sera-longue%e2%80%a6/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-25 04:24:30 \[...\] VoilĂ  donc une belle illusion d’ouverture que nous offre MySpace. Pour en savoir plus, je vous recommande la très bonne analyse suivante : Thoughts on Data Portability. \[...\] ### When location is everywhere URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/when-location-is-everywhere/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:51.000Z What if you could take location as a given in the design of web applications and services? By that I mean, what if — when someone who has never used your service before shows up, signs up (ideally with an [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)!) — and it's both trivial and desirable for her to provide you with access to some aspect of her physical location in the world... and she does? What would you do? How would you change the architecture of your service to leverage this new "layer" of information? Would you use it to help her connect to and find others in her proximity (or maybe avoid them)? Would you use it to better target ads at her ([as Facebook does](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2466678280/?ref=chrismessina.me))? Would you use it to *accelerate serendipity*, colliding random people who, for some reason, have strikingly similar habits but don't yet know each other — or would you only reveal the information in aggregate, to better give members a sense for where people on the service come from, spend their time and hang out? If you could, would you automatically geocode everything that new members upload or post to your service or would you require that metadata to be added or exposed explicitly? Put still another way, how would a universal "location layer for the social web" change the design and implementation of existing applications? Would it give rise to a *class* of applications that take advantage of and thrive on knowing where their members live, work and play, and tailor their services accordingly? Or would all services eventually make use of location information? Or will it depend on each service's unique offering and membership, and why people signed up in the first place? Just because you can integrate with Twitter or Facebook, *must you*? If the "location layer" were made available, *must* you take advantage of it? What criteria or metrics would you use to decide? I would contend that these are all questions that anyone with a modern web service is going to need to start dealing with sooner than later. It's not really a matter of *whether or not* members will *ever* show up with some digital footprint of where they are, where they've been or where they're going; it's really only a matter of time. When they do, will you be ready to respond to this information or will you carry on like Friendster in the prime of Facebook and pretend like the first bubble never popped? If you imagine for a minute that the ubiquity of wireless-enabled laptops gave rise to the desire-slash-ability for more productive mobile work, and consequently created the opportunity for the [coworking community](http://coworking.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) to blossom; if you consider that the ubiquity of digital cameras and camera phones created the opening for a service like Flickr (et al) to take off; if you consider that the affordability of camcorders, accessibility of video on digital cameras, cell phones and built-in in laptops and iMacs, coupled with simpler tools like iMovie, lead to people being able and wanting to post videos to a service like YouTube (et al); if you look at how the ubiquity of some kind of device technology with \[media\] output lead to the rise of services/communities that were optimized for that same media, you might start to realize that a huge opportunity is coming for locative devices that make it easy to publish where you are, discover where your friends are, and to generally receive benefits from being able to inform third parties, in a facile way, where you are, where you've been and where you're going. Especially with the opening of the iPhone with its simple and elegant implementation of the "[Locate Me](http://www.gearlive.com/gallery/image%5Fmed/769/?ref=chrismessina.me)" feature in Google Maps (which has already made its way into Twinkle, a [native Twitter app for the iPhone](http://gizmodo.com/378361/twinkle-the-iphone-twitter-client-adds-location-features?ref=chrismessina.me) that uses your location to introduce you to nearby Twitterers who are also using the app) I think we're on the brink of seeing the kind of the ubiquity (in the consumer space) that we need in order to start taking the availability of location information for granted, and, that, like standards-compliant browsers, it could (or should) really inform the way that we build out the social fabric of web applications from thence forward. The real difference coming that I want to point out here is that 1) location information, like digital photos and videos before it, will become increasingly available and accessible to regular people, in many forms; that 2) people will become increasingly aware that they can use this information to their advantage should they choose to and may, if given the chance, provide this information to third-party services; 3) that when this information is applied to social applications (i.e. where location is exposed at varying levels of publicity), interesting, and perhaps compelling, results may emerge; and that 4) in general, investing in location as an "information layer" or filter within new or existing applications makes increasingly more sense, as more location information is coming available, is being made available by choice, and is appearing in increasing numbers of applications that previously may not have taken physical location into consideration. Geogeeks can claim credit for presaging this day for some time, but only now does it seems like the reality is nearly upon us. Will the ubiquity of location data, like the adoption of web standards before, catalyze entirely new breeds of applications and web services? It's anyone's guess when exactly this reality will come to pass, but I believe that now, increasingly, it's really only a short matter of time before location is indeed *everywhere*, a new building block on which new and exciting services and functionality can be stacked.(**Bonus:** [Everyware](http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FEveryware-Dawning-Ubiquitous-Computing-Voices%2Fdp%2F0321384016%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1210058593%26sr%3D8-1&tag=factorycity-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&ref=chrismessina.me) by [Adam Greenfield](http://speedbird.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is good reading on this general topic, though not necessarily as it relates to web services and applications.) --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Wo bin ich? < LostFocus](http://www.lostfocus.de/archives/2008/05/06/wo-bin-ich/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 00:29:24 \[...\] Messina fragt sich, was wohl passiert, when location is everywhere - wie kann der Location-Layer in Webdienste eingebaut werden? Dienste wie Fire Eagle und Loki \[...\] **[Todd](http://siddey.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 02:42:48 Chris, You've beautifully articulated the significant role location enablement continues to play in the evolution of the web. I share your obvious passion for location based services and hope that we see more online social services factor location awareness in their core offering and APIs. Contextualising content and engaging in conversations based upon location is not new but given it is increasingly essential to filtering out the growing noise of online communities and building more relevant personal networks, it's amazing that social networking sites haven't better leveraged this layer sooner. Thanks for the insights. **[Why location is the new black for social networks « Geographically challenged](http://siddey.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/why-location-is-the-new-black-for-social-networks/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 03:07:04 \[...\] in Articles at 9:06 pm by banyon Chris Messina gets it. I mean, he REALLY gets \[...\] **[David Horn](http://raconteuring.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 03:44:23 A compelling read. You wonderfully describe this frontier geogeeks are trying to map. There are three aspects I would add to your thoughts on location. Even when the location layer becomes ubiquitous, we'll still have to think in terms of specificity, frequency, and context. Different methods of updating and privacy settings can mean location as specific as GPS or as general as a zip code, which may or may not be useful depending on the consuming service. We're constantly moving, so frequency of updates determine the social usefulness of location data. Also, if location sharing becomes more ubiquitous and automated, it will probably be in the form of GPS or cell tower information along the lines of the iPhone's "Locate Me" feature. This is great for certain kinds of location sharing, but horrible for contextual information like "in conference room A" or "Ted's pub." Mapping GPS->venue will be a big deal. This leads me to my worries about the location layer. I foresee applications that allow users to tag their GPS locations with venue data, but store that data in a closed way so that the company owning the app can claim it as IP. I really want to see the location layer implemented correctly before we go too crazy with services. That will require more thought and lots of openness+standards. We need more apps like Fire Eagle that take privacy seriously and offer users robust control of their data. If companies like Facebook try to claim your location history is their property the way they claim your contact list is their property...well, I don't even need to explain how bad that would be for everyone. **[Technarium » Blog Archive » The Landscape of Location Ubiquity](http://www.technarium.com/blog/27/the-landscape-of-location-ubiquity?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 04:04:23 \[...\] Messina wrote a fantastic article describing the inevitable future that’s ahead of us for location based services. I posted some thoughts on the topic in his comments, and I decided, while link-loving his blog, \[...\] **[Martin Dufort](http://location-based.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 08:40:09 Hi Chris : Very nice post and I like the fact that you discussed the location layer. I also applaud Yahoo's Brickhouse initiative: FireEagle. This is a good start in removing the burden of location-based application developer; gathering location information and associating privacy levels to it. Then we can focus more of our energy on the added-value of each application. Look at BrightKite for example. However I wish they would read from FireEagle instead on only writing to it. Happy location reporting - Martin **[Todd Sieling](http://corvusconsulting.ca/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 08:55:47 Nice post - we do need to be thinking about this now. As emerging services like BrightKite start talking to more widespread networks like Facebook, they'll be defining the terms of how web apps will deal with knowing or not knowing our locations. I wrote something on a similar line last week, looking at location as an aspect of identity, and as part of the issues surrounding identity portability: http://corvusconsulting.ca/articles/2008/04/30/wherever-you-go-there-you-are-thoughts-on-identity-and-location **[yardley.ca » Privacy kafuffle approaching](http://yardley.ca/2008/05/06/privacykafuffle-approaching/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 10:23:09 \[...\] read Chris Messina on location-aware services. He makes an obvious point but it’s nicely written - location’s about to tip, and in a \[...\] **[Will Geolocation Become Ubiquitous? : Natural Search Blog](http://www.naturalsearchblog.com/archives/2008/05/06/will-geolocation-become-ubiquitous/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 11:10:57 \[...\] Messina at Citizen Agency has just blogged about how he believes that geolocation data will become ubiquitous for websites to use, and this \[...\] **[Andrew Turner](http://highearthorbit.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 16:00:55 I would recommend anyone interested in Geo\* come out to WhereCamp May 17 & 18th on the Google campus. http://wherecamp.pbwiki.com/ **Todd** ¡ 2008-05-07 02:48:44 ...speaking of location based awareness. Here's Tom Coates running ( very quickly ) through FireEagle: http://www.vimeo.com/962626 I found value in this video since he talks about apps I was unaware of that are already using FE and he outlines his wish list for what he would like to see people do with it. Excellent post Chris. And I woul add that once Android is pervasive, and Google enables AdSense inside it, use of the location layer with increase rapidly. Commerce has to have an fiscal incentive - AdSense ads contextually relevant down to the meter is it. **Andrew Paterson** ¡ 2008-05-08 02:32:39 Chris, Great article, as always. I would add that "location" is going to be closely linked with the evolution of "identity", meaning the proliferation of multiple identities (pro - leisure - perso etc.) as these identities will have different degrees of "visibility" attached to them which is going to make things particularly complex to manage both on the user side and the application side. This is starting to become a real "oignon"... Andrew ;-) **[links for 2008-05-08 « Breyten’s Dev Blog](http://breyten.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/links-for-2008-05-08/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-08 03:31:02 \[...\] When location is everywhere (tags: chrismessina factoryjoe geo location locationbased privacy) \[...\] **[5 Things from the Future](http://innonate.com/2008/05/08/5-things-from-the-future/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-08 04:30:38 \[...\] friend Chris Messina wrote more about this, by the \[...\] **[gruvr live music map](http://gruvr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-08 11:43:49 Nice post, thanks. I've been coding GIS and spatial db systems since the mid-80s. The techniques of geolocation have been well known since well before the web (think Loran and terrain modelling), so it's surprising that more apps aren't using it even still. One common method of doing geolocation does really constitute a universal 'location-awareness' layer as you put it: web apps can easily query an incoming IP for approximate coordinates, and do 'ip delivery' to enhance the user experience. There's an interesting divide, though, between apps where the location information is really useful and those where it's merely an added interest. Take news, for example - there are several sites which scout up hyper-local news and blog posts, but they dont seem to be gaining lots of traction: I might not be interested to read about the pothole repair 2 blocks away, all that hyper-local focus can end up introducing noise, as news needs to be filtered by interest primarily. Our site gruvr.com maps local concerts - it guesses where you are. This is more useful because live music is opportunistic - the question of just how far away a concert is does matter, since you're trying to decide whether to actually GO there. Regarding why geolocation hasnt been more widely adopted - There actually is a factor that those of us who are into geo-web apps know: you pay a severe penalty in terms of google SEO if you do geolocation. Why? Because most google spiders geo-identify as a user from Sunnyvale or Mountain View CA! Thus, the google and adsense spiders think your site is all about the San Franciso scene, and serve those local ads... even to people in Boston! Google can also penalize sites it thinks are doing cloaking, which is hard to tell from honest IP-delivery. The end result is that such apps actually get penalized for improving user experience. This is a sad state of affairs, an artifact of the text-based architecture of google's search technology. It's limiting a lot of what can be done on the web, simply because google wasn't designed with knowledge of how geolocating apps often work. It's still a flat world, folks. **[Fade to Play » Interview with Kate Imbach, Skyhook Wireless](http://www.fadetoplay.com/2008/05/19/interview-with-kate-imbach-skyhook-wireless/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-19 13:07:57 \[...\] are a couple of posts on the topic of location awareness that I have read recently. The first is by Chris Messina and the second is by Todd Sieling regarding location and \[...\] **[Dubroy.com/blog - Things to check out](http://dubroy.com/blog/2008/05/27/things-to-check-out/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-27 16:00:05 \[...\] When location is everywhere | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Defining information relevance for location based services « Geographically challenged](http://siddey.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/defining-information-relevance-for-location-based-services/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-18 04:14:07 \[...\] services are all about. At this point in the evolution of the industry it’s still mainly about people and not so much the “things”. Maybe that’s because it’s human nature to \[...\] **[Nate Westheimer: 5 Things from the Future « The Future: Today](http://futurememe.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/nate-westheimer-5-things-from-the-future/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-23 14:53:23 \[...\] friend Chris Messina wrote more about this, by the \[...\] ### OAuth Discovery 1.0 Draft 2 released with support from Ma.gnolia, Fire Eagle and Satisfaction URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/oauth-discovery-10-draft-2-released-with-support-from-magnolia-fire-eagle-and-satisfaction/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:59.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2366850789/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Eran just announced](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2008/04/oauth-discovery.html?ref=chrismessina.me) the second draft of [OAuth Discovery](http://oauth.net/discovery/1.0?ref=chrismessina.me), the first implementation of the [XRDS-Simple](http://xrds-simple.net/core/1.0?ref=chrismessina.me) specification that I [mentioned here](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/28/xrds-simple-draft-1-released/?ref=chrismessina.me) just over a week ago. What's significant about this announcement, as Eran points out, is that the new draft is already implemented and deployed by [FireEagle](http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) (a Yahoo! Brickhouse service), [Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), and [Get Satisfaction](http://getsatisfaction.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) — three leaders in the [OAuth community](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). On the development tools front, [Mediamatic](http://www.mediamatic.nl/set-48-nl.html?lang=en&ref=chrismessina.me) will release initial support for discovery early next week with full support due early May in their [OAuth PHP library](http://oauth-sandbox.mediamatic.nl/?ref=chrismessina.me). [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2398485942/?ref=chrismessina.me)This draft is a complete rewrite of the [first draft released several months ago](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2007/12/its-about-oauth.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and, in the spirit of OAuth, greatly simplifies the concepts and presentation of the protocol, and incorporates a great many of the clarifications provided by the [OAuth](http://groups.google.com/group/oauth/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [XRI](http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/xri?ref=chrismessina.me) communities. OAuth Discovery, simply, is an extensible, machine-readable format for identifying [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)\-protected resources and service endpoints. Take a look at the [provided example](http://oauth.net/discovery/1.0?ref=chrismessina.me#anchor7) or [Ma.gnolia's actual discovery profile](http://ma.gnolia.com/api/rest/2/xrds?ref=chrismessina.me) to get an idea for what these documents look like. Over time, the goal is to automate the pairing of unacquainted web services, by being able to first identify the location of services on the web and second to discover the authentication requirements for accessing such services. Coupled with [XRDS-Simple](http://xrds-simple.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), you can further specify the [types of data available from given services](http://xrds-simple.net/core/1.0/?ref=chrismessina.me#service%5Felement), and to begin to describe the [methods](http://xrds-simple.net/core/1.0/?ref=chrismessina.me#httpMethod%5Fattribute) you would use to access that data. To provide a more complete conceptual model, imagine that you run a social network, and in this network, members have collections of bookmarks. Your service provides a way to either upload bookmarks directly or to subscribe to someone's existing bookmarks stored at, say, services like [Delicious](http://del.icio.us/?ref=chrismessina.me) or [Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Now say that you also [encourage new members to sign in with an OpenID identity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/30/magnolia-moves-to-openid-only-sign-ups/?ref=chrismessina.me). From that identity, you may be able to discover an XRDS-Simple profile that points to an existing social bookmarking account, allowing you to attempt to import those bookmarks immediately. If, however, those bookmarks require authorization, and the authorization protocol happens to be OAuth, you should be able to automate the appropriate authorization requests to the user because the service supports OAuth Discovery. In contrast, to achieve the same flow today, you must [manually provide the names of accounts and services that you use individually](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2307194310/?ref=chrismessina.me), and then hope that the new service [supports the remote protocols of your pre-existing services](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/friendfeed%5Fvs%5Fsocialthing.php?ref=chrismessina.me). With XRDS-Simple and OAuth Discovery, much of this work is automatically handled for you, letting you focus more on *what you want to share*, and less on *where your data is stored*, and increasingly allowing data to automatically flow between systems, *should you decide to provide them authorization to do so on your behalf*. If you're interest in learning more about OAuth Discovery, the best place to go is the [OAuth Extensions group](http://groups.google.com/group/oauth-extensions?ref=chrismessina.me). Since OAuth Discovery also [borrows heavily on XRDS-Simple](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2008/03/putting-xrds-si.html?ref=chrismessina.me), you might also want to check out that [specification](http://xrds-simple.net/core/1.0?ref=chrismessina.me) and discuss it in the [related group](http://groups.google.com/group/xrds-simple?ref=chrismessina.me). ### Ma.gnolia moves to OpenID-only sign ups URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/magnolia-moves-to-openid-only-sign-ups/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:50.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2365434826/?ref=chrismessina.me)[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2364592150/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Ma.gnolia's](http://ma.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) not the first to move to [OpenID-only signups](http://ma.gnolia.com/sign%20in?ref=chrismessina.me), but perhaps one of the first to [*remove* the ability to create new Ma.gnolia-only accounts](http://twitter.com/magnolia/statuses/777592412?ref=chrismessina.me) in favor of the alternative. If you previously created a Ma.gnolia account you can still sign in with your email address or username and password, but new accounts must be generated using remote credentials from services like Facebook or Yahoo!, or with any OpenID. This approach offers a couple benefits as well as drawbacks. It's important to think through these issues from a [number of perspectives](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/330834.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (users, community, developers and site owners/maintainers) and to think about what this might mean for [similarly narrow applications in the future](http://kveton.com/blog/2008/03/27/magnolia-goes-openid-only/?ref=chrismessina.me) (Ma.gnolia is a social bookmarking site and, like Twitter, does one thing pretty well and [sports a number of capable APIs](http://wiki.ma.gnolia.com/Ma.gnolia%5FAPI?ref=chrismessina.me) for extending the service). ### Users For existing Ma.gnolia users, [not much has changed](http://wiki.ma.gnolia.com/Official%5FChange%5FLog?ref=chrismessina.me#March%5F26.2C%5F2008) besides the sign in experience. Once you've set your default sign in interface (i.e. OpenID, Yahoo!, Facebook, old skool Ma.gnolia, etc), you shouldn't need to worry about this choice again, unless you clear your cookies or use a new computer. Once signed in, you use Ma.gnolia as you always would. The difference comes for new users signing in for the first time. Rather than going through that old dance of providing an email address, waiting for the confirmation, clicking through the confirmation link, filling in your profile, uploading an avatar, *blah blah blah*, you simply click a button or enter your OpenID URL, confirm your account on your identity provider, return to Ma.gnolia and you're set. Depending on how you've setup your remote account, Ma.gnolia could import your avatar, your name, your email address and other demographic details, which you can customize later, all in one fell swoop. Now the big question of course is: what happens if someone comes to Ma.gnolia to sign up and doesn't have a remote account or doesn't want to use one of their existing accounts? On the first point, with Yahoo's adoption of OpenID earlier this year, and AOL, WordPress.com, LiveJournal, and Flickr (among others), we have pretty good coverage for most people. Add Facebook accounts into the mix, and for most of the folks who will be signing up for Ma.gnolia, they'll probably have another account hosted elsewhere that they can reuse. And, signing up for a new OpenID account elsewhere, at sites like [ClickPass](http://clickpass.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Vidoop](http://vidoop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) or [MyOpenID](http://myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), is barely less convenient than the old process for creating a new Ma.gnolia account (and, the process for obtaining an OpenID will probably get consistently easier over time anyway). But, what if you don't want to use an existing account, either because you're worried about associating your other online activities with your bookmarks, or you prefer to keep facets of your identity separate in different contexts? Well, there are two answers here: 1) *too bad* because, well, Ma.gnolia doesn't really "need" new signups (more on this later), and besides, it turns out that most of Ma.gnolia's OpenID users to date (sure, the early adopters) have shown higher engagement and therefore represent higher value to the overall community; and 2) *not too bad* if you use ClickPass, Yahoo! or another identity provider that supports *directed identity* — a feature that essentially assigns a unique OpenID URL for each new service that you signup for, keeping your online activities discreet unless or until you choose to unify them. ### Community The benefit to the community here is somewhat speculative, but I can say that there is increasing value in knowing if *user\_x* on one system is the same *user\_x* on another system, and not just due to an accidental (or intentional) name collision. Since Ma.gnolia will now have a verified identity URL for each of its members, it will be conceivably easier to evaluate whether the *factoryjoe* you've stumbled upon is me or not, since I'm the only person who can sign in against *factoryjoe.com*, my OpenID URL. This has benefits for the existing [group functionality](http://ma.gnolia.com/groups?ref=chrismessina.me) and for contact lists in Ma.gnolia, so that, as you begin to grow an external [contact list of URLs for people](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/11/portable-contact-lists-and-the-case-against-xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me), Ma.gnolia could watch your list and then alert you when new friends show up and start participating on Ma.gnolia, along the lines of the feature that [Dopplr just released](http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbiddulph/2368894694/?ref=chrismessina.me) and that Facebook has begun offering. Once Ma.gnolia is able to identify its users from external networks, [implicit reputation will emerge](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2008-03-27/new-sign-in-page-a-smart-move-by-magnolia/?ref=chrismessina.me) in the minds of users who can recognize their friends from other networks. Again, if I've identified myself to Ma.gnolia as *factoryjoe.com*, anyone who uses OpenID on their blog and has seen me leave a comment with my OpenID will have a pretext for interacting with and connecting to me. As it is today, it's completely hit or miss whether I'll remember or recognize someone on Ma.gnolia unless they use the same avatar that they use in other social networking contexts — and while that heuristic works most of the time, it's certainly not trustworthy, given that [anyone can upload anyone else's avatar](http://flickr.com/photos/tags/avatartheft?ref=chrismessina.me). ### Developers and Site Owners/Maintainers This last group has somewhat less to do with Ma.gnolia specifically, but, should this [trend towards accepting remote credentials exclusively take off](http://blog.vidoop.com/archives/82?ref=chrismessina.me), not only will we see increasing value in picking a *solid* identity provider, but we'll also see an easier situation for developers and site owners and maintainers who will be able to ostensibly outsource the account management duties of a site. While a drawback is that users may be locked out of their accounts should their identity provider go down (hence the importance of choosing wisely and designing sites defensively!), the major upside is that all the annoying and redundant stuff around building user login pages, error handling, password retrieval and recovery will become the duty of third parties. To put this in perspective, think of credit cards (my favorite analogy for OpenID): as much as it sucks, when your credit card is declined, it's not up to the store owner to sort out what went wrong: it's between you and your bank. The store owner is off the hook. Sure, he can be helpful and forgiving and offer to take another form of credential or point you to an ATM, but ultimately, you're going to need to resolve the issue on your own. Considering the time that [Larry](http://larryhalff.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Todd](http://toddsieling.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) put in supporting the Ma.gnolia community (two people for over 100,000 members!), they really should be focusing on core issues with the service and improving the basic functionality and performance rather than dealing with trivial account matters that really don't have much to do with Ma.gnolia's core offerings. But that's just looking at legitimate users — i.e. "real" people. The far more troubling trend on Ma.gnolia has been [the rise of spammers of various ilk](http://ma.gnolia.com/blog/2008/01/31/a-dirty-shame?ref=chrismessina.me), using the site for misguided SEO scams that burden the overall system. You [could argue](http://www.socialtimes.com/2008/03/magnolia-stops-spam-with-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) that [fighting spammers](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/magnolia%5Fopenid%5Fto%5Fsave%5Fanti-spam%5Fanti-spam%5Fto%5Fsave%5Fopenid.php?ref=chrismessina.me) alone would be enough to warrant the switch to OpenID-only account provisioning if it weren't for the additional merits I've already mentioned (and according to Larry, it looks like this change has already paid off with a considerable drop in spammer activity on the site). The beauty of relying on URL-based accounts is that other people with a far greater interest in "owning identity" (that is, big services like Yahoo! and Facebook or individuals operating their own blogs or identity providers) is that other, more capable and focused systems are tasked with weeding out the bad actors. And, depending on how you decide to implement this approach, you can choose to trust certain identity providers more than others, just as border patrol does for passports of different origin today. Sure, there will continue to be value and legitimacy in anonymity or pseudonymity in social networking contexts, but using remote identities doesn't actually affect that. It just means that you have to find the appropriate host that will offer you directed identity. All the same terms of use apply, as well ss the terms of the remote system (therefore, anyone who signs in to your site using a Yahoo! OpenID will have already agreed to the Yahoo! terms of service barring abuse and illegal activities). From a developer perspective, it will also get easier to support this approach as libraries to handle remote account provisioning and delegated authorization (using [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)) will proliferate. Ideally it will lead to *more* innovation and *more* experimentation and *more* qualified signups for services when user sign-in is outsourced, just like server hosting is now handled by S3 and computation is handled by Amazon's EC2 (etc.). It's not that Ma.gnolia's abandonment of new native accounts is that much of a revelation, but it does offer the chance to reconsider how taken-for-granted account creation and instantiation has become. I know that [Leslie Chicoine](http://lesliechicoine.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) of [Satisfaction](http://getsatisfaction.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) has been thinking about latent registration where users are exposed to the value of the site before being forced down the sign up rabbit hole. Migrating to remote accounts is just one more way of lowering the barrier to demonstrating your core value and engaging new users immediately. It'll be very interesting to watch the response on Ma.gnolia and to see whether, in reducing the number of spammers on the site, it also has the unintended effect of reducing new signups by real people. Somehow I doubt it, especially if it gets easier to incorporate Ma.gnolia *as a service* in remote applications like Facebook and OpenSocial containers. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Joseph Smarr](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-31 07:04:48 Great analysis Chris. This will be a very interesting trend to watch, and I hope Larry and the gang keep us posted on what goes well and not-so-well in their brave new OpenID-only world. :) **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-31 19:46:12 The only problem with this as a SPAM solution is that it's temporary. OpenID is not a trust system and SPAMmers can just run their own server. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-31 20:01:58 Certainly, but while this is true, and the arms race will simply move to a new context, in the least, from a single service provider perspective with multiple "surface areas" that use unified account mechanisms, you can start to more effectively filter across your properties, or to share whitelists with related parties, in the way that Akismet leverages countless WordPress blogs to improve its spam fighting heuristics. The next step could be increased fraud for OpenIDs, but then that would really be the true mark of success, wouldn't it? ;) At least, unlike email, through which most PayPal exchanges pass, all OpenID connections are passed over SSL! **[Max Design - standards based web design, development and training » Some links for light reading (2/4/08)](http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2008/04/02/some-links-169/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-01 06:21:01 \[...\] Ma.gnolia moves to OpenID-only sign ups \[...\] **[Sylvia!!!!!](http://bakakappuru.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-02 14:17:49 CHRIS!!!! CHECK YOU EMAILZ YO---- SORRY FOR CAPS, BUT IT IS URGENT! lolz, it's about my wedding... XD christ man, you're like a double0 agent... can never friggin find you these days! I'm still receiving your auto-mail response and it says check after March 31st... it's APRIL!!! so you must be back in the states, yeah?? okies, laterz dude lol **[Peter Nixey](http://clickpass.com/public/peter?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-02 15:10:12 Good article Chris. The key to the solution is how fast users move towards understanding the potential of single-sign-on and how it actually works for them. Seeing Ma.gnolia go this way is a great validation of the scale of the OpenID community and it's great to see that Larry has done it. **[This Week’s Bookmarks at Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2008-04-06/this-weeks-bookmarks-11/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-05 23:02:01 \[...\] Ma.gnolia moves to OpenID-only sign ups | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Mukunda Modell](http://www.developerfriendly.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-07 16:25:31 One problem: ma.gnolia.com still requires an email address AND confirmation, even after signing up with an openid... fail **[OAuth Discovery 1.0 Draft 2 released with support from Ma.gnolia, Fire Eagle and Satisfaction « OAuth](http://blog.oauth.net/2008/04/08/oauth-discovery-10-draft-2-released-with-support-from-magnolia-fire-eagle-and-satisfaction/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-08 03:11:54 \[...\] existing bookmarks stored at, say, services like Delicious or Ma.gnolia. Now say that you also encourage new members to sign in with an OpenID identity. From that identity, you may be able to discover an XRDS-Simple profile that points to an existing \[...\] **[What Facebook connect will mean for Identity 2.0](http://www.unodewaal.com/2008/07/25/what-facebook-connect-will-mean-for-identity-20/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-24 23:52:17 \[...\] Magnolia has an interesting way of getting around some of these problems - you can’t register an account with an email address (as these are quite disposable), you can only register with a select group of services. While this doesn’t directly solve the issue of identity, it was one of the first services that I saw that used a type of Facebook Connect before there was a Facebook Connect. \[...\] **[David](http://daverix.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-05 10:29:25 Very interesting article. I'm planning to build a community site and can't decide whether to have both openid-login and email registration or if I should only use openid. After reading the article I think I should go after the latter. ### XRDS-Simple Draft 1 released URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/xrds-simple-draft-1-released/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:49.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2366850789/?ref=chrismessina.me)The little guys keep building the future of the web in little steps. Well, okay, I shouldn't use such hubris, but I'm pretty proud of our little squad of do-gooders, developing quality technology that I think *IS* advancing the state of the web, and doing so without any budget whatsoever, and without any kind of centralized resources (can you tell I've been hanging out in Redmond at Microsoft's campus the last couple days?). Anyway, yesterday [Eran Hammer-Lahav](http://www.hueniverse.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), the [primary author of the OAuth spec](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2007/12/its-here-oauth.html?ref=chrismessina.me), [released the first draft of XRDS-Simple format](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2008/03/announcing-xrds.html?ref=chrismessina.me) for [public review](http://xrds-simple.net/core/1.0?ref=chrismessina.me). Acronyms aside, what we're defining here is a data format that allows web authors to link to — in a consistent, ordered way — the various services that they use across the web. What's important about this format is that 1) we're not inventing anything new and that 2) it's already widely implemented, thanks in large part to OpenID 2.0's discovery mechanism (discovery, in this case, can be loosely defined as the means by which a computer determines where a service exists — for example, where someone stores their photos or blog posts — very useful, of course, in the case of [URL-based identities](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/01/03/%20its-high-time-we-moved-to-url-based-identifiers/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Microformats folks will ask why we don't just use `rel-me`, and that's a very valid question. Sure, you could use `rel-me` to link to an XRDS-Simple document, but that doesn't answer the question. Specifically, there are [three main technical features](http://xrds-simple.net/core/1.0/?ref=chrismessina.me#service%5Felement) that, taken together, are superior to `rel-me` from a service discovery perspective: - **Media types**: essentially the MIME type that the service provides, as defined by [RFC-2046](http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2046?ref=chrismessina.me) (in layman terms: photos, videos, text, etc). - **Local IDs**: the identifier (i.e. a username or email address) associated with the requested resource; think of your Facebook email address (and clearly not something you'd necessarily want to publish publicly on your blog!) - **Service priority**: useful for determining the selection order should there be more than one of a given type of service (for example, use my Vimeo account videos before my Viddler collection, etc) Promoted by [similar questions](http://groups.google.com/group/xrds-simple/msg/80de50dd0ca21194?ref=chrismessina.me) from Danny Ayers, Eran [elaborated on this and similar topics](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2008/03/putting-xrds-si.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (I'd encourage you to read this response for a good technical and philosophical backgrounder). I'll finish briefly by putting XRDS-Simple into a broader context of the work we're doing, and point out how this fits into [DiSo](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). First, we now have [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) for URL-based identity on the web so we can identify people between web sites; second, we have [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) for specifically controlling who has access to your data; and third, we now have a mechanism for discovering the services and data brokers that you use in a consistent, fairly widely supported format. These three building blocks are critical to advancing the smooth and secure flow of people and their data between web sites, web services and changing contexts. For DiSo, we will enable someone to sign in to a web service for the first time and, at their discretion, have their [contacts looked up](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/11/portable-contact-lists-and-the-case-against-xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me) (eventually this should be more like a buddy list reference), have feeds of her photos or videos or whatever other media she publishes automatically discovered and imported (would be really useful for [Adobe Photoshop Express](http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/photoshopexpress/?ref=chrismessina.me), for example!), to then provide her the option to allow the web service to send information back to her identity provider or data broker (for example, inserting events into her activity stream) which would then be able to be subscribed to or followed by any of her friends running their own sites, or who delegate to some third party aggregator service (a la [FriendFeed](http://friendfeed.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)). This is actually a pretty simple flow, but the difference is that we can now assemble this entire stack with open tools, open protocols and open formats. Discovery is one of the few remaining components that we need to nail down to get into the next stage of building out this model. So, to that end, I encourage and [invite your comments](http://groups.google.com/group/xrds-simple/?ref=chrismessina.me) (the list is moderated and requires you to state your interest to [sign up](http://groups.google.com/group/xrds-simple/subscribe?ref=chrismessina.me)). We'll be [ending the Draft 1 review period April 10](http://groups.google.com/group/xrds-simple/browse%5Fthread/thread/4127a3233b56852b/a7d4ad00de12d5ed?ref=chrismessina.me#a7d4ad00de12d5ed), so get your comments in sooner than later! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Singpolyma - Technical Blog » XRDS-Simple and Infinite Interoperability](http://singpolyma.net/2008/03/xrds-simple-and-infinite-interoperability/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-28 14:55:19 \[...\] finally released the XRDS-Simple Draft 1 spec. Chris Messina has some great thoughts about how this fits into DiSo, and Eran has done some good explanations himself. I'm just \[...\] **[links for 2008-03-29 « Kaigani’s Arbor Vitae](http://kaigani.wordpress.com/2008/03/29/links-for-2008-03-29/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-28 16:44:11 \[...\] XRDS-Simple Draft 1 released | FactoryCity (tags: microformats) Posted by kaigani Filed in Uncategorized \[...\] **[This Week’s Bookmarks at Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2008-03-30/this-weeks-bookmarks-10/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-29 23:02:44 \[...\] XRDS-Simple Draft 1 released | FactoryCity \[...\] **[A Frog in the Valley » Building the open, distributed web, block by block](http://www.afroginthevalley.com/2008/03/31/building-the-open-distributed-web-block-by-block.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-31 05:37:44 \[...\] XRDS-Simple Draft 1 released | FactoryCity\] This entry was written by Sylvain and posted on 2008/03/31 at 09:37 and filed under blogs, \[...\] **[OAuth Discovery 1.0 Draft 2 released with support from Ma.gnolia, Fire Eagle and Satisfaction « OAuth](http://blog.oauth.net/2008/04/08/oauth-discovery-10-draft-2-released-with-support-from-magnolia-fire-eagle-and-satisfaction/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-08 03:11:23 \[...\] second draft of OAuth Discovery, the first implementation of the XRDS-Simple specification that I mentioned here just over a week \[...\] ### Citizen Garden #6 on site-specific browsers featuring Jon Crosby and Todd Ditchendorf URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/citizen-garden-6-on-site-specific-browsers-featuring-jon-crosby-and-todd-ditchendorf/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:48.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2353599053/?ref=chrismessina.me)I'm not sure if I've mentioned it here before, but [Larry Halff](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/lhalff?ref=chrismessina.me) ([Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) and I have been recording a series of podcasts with a bunch of interesting folks on topics ranging from [data portability](http://citizengarden.com/2008/01/04/episode-2-the-data-portability-circus/?ref=chrismessina.me) to [data interop and authorization patterns](http://citizengarden.com/2008/02/05/episode-4-after-foo/?ref=chrismessina.me) to [API-driven web services](http://citizengarden.com/2008/03/09/episode-5-pretty-compact/?ref=chrismessina.me). The intended audience of this podcast is really us, since it came out of lunches that Larry and I were having at [Out the Door](http://www.yelp.com/biz/out-the-door-san-francisco-2?ref=chrismessina.me) in downtown San Francisco. We realized that, while a lot of what we were talking about might be interesting to a wider audience, more importantly, starting a podcast of our conversations would give us a great pretext to invite folks who are inspiring us with their work to come out for some daikon cakes and Vietnamese ice coffee (following in the steps of [Peter Rukavina](http://ruk.ca/?ref=chrismessina.me) et al's [Live from the Formosa Tea House](http://ruk.ca/article/3266?ref=chrismessina.me) podcast of course). This past week, Larry and I brought together [Todd Ditchendorf](http://www.ditchnet.org/wp/2008/03/24/citizen-garden-podcast/?ref=chrismessina.me) of [Fluid.app](http://fluidapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Jon Crosby](http://www.kaboomerang.com/blog/2008/03/24/cloudkit-on-the-citizen-garden-podcast/?ref=chrismessina.me) of [Actiontastic](http://www.kaboomerang.com/blog/category/actiontastic/?ref=chrismessina.me) and recently [Kloudkit](http://code.google.com/p/kloudkit/?ref=chrismessina.me) to discuss [site-specific browsers](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/03/22/bridging-desktop-and-web-applications-a-look-at-mozilla-prism/?ref=chrismessina.me) and related trends in [cloud computing](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/reaching%5Ffor%5Fthe%5Fsky%5Fthrough%5Fcompute%5Fclouds.php?ref=chrismessina.me). Obviously the question looms large about the competition between the open web, Adobe's AIR platform and Microsoft's Silverlight framework. With both Adobe and Microsoft jockeying for supreme "open" status with their platforms, we need to start asking the question differently: it's no longer about whether a platform is "open", but who controls its features, its priorities, and to what degree it facilitates interoperability by supporting industry-wide non-proprietary standards. Of course there's always going to be [proprietary development leading the way](http://openmediaweb.org/index.php/2008/01/09/episode-2-tantek-celik/?ref=chrismessina.me) [ahead of open development](http://twitter.com/ryanstewart/statuses/663646592?ref=chrismessina.me), and that's fine. The difference, however, is that efforts like Mozilla's [Prism](http://wiki.mozilla.org/Prism?ref=chrismessina.me), Todd's Fluid.app and Jon's Kloudkit give us completely open stacks for implementing a lot of compelling ideas and features using tools and technologies without having to pick a corporate partner. They also provide us with the flexibility to innovate independently and see which ideas stick, while also pushing and pulling on the future of browser technology directly. In any case, you should probably just [listen to this episode](http://s3.amazonaws.com/citizengarden-podcasts/CitizenGardenEpisode6.mp3?ref=chrismessina.me) and let us [know what you think](http://citizengarden.com/2008/03/23/episode-6-floating-into-the-cloud/?ref=chrismessina.me). If you want to subscribe to [Citizen Garden](http://citizengarden.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), you can grab [listen in iTunes](http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=271388701&ref=chrismessina.me), grab our [feed](http://feeds.feedburner.com/CitizenGarden?ref=chrismessina.me) or [follow Citizen Garden](http://twitter.com/citizengarden?ref=chrismessina.me) on Twitter. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-24 18:48:53 Citizen Garden is always a good listen - just can't consume it as fast or easily as old-fashioned text ;) **[John Dowdell](http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-29 12:06:49 Hi Chris, why do you lump in Microsoft's upcoming cross-browser plugin with beyond-the-browser initiatives? (If you can make something great, then please do, and we'll all be better off.) jd/adobe ### Relationships are complicated URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/relationships-are-complicated/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:47.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1344271882/?ref=chrismessina.me)I've noticed a few interesting [responses](http://www.intomobile.com/2008/03/14/adam-greenfield-to-be-nokias-new-head-of-design-direction.html?ref=chrismessina.me) to [my post on simplifying XFN](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/11/portable-contact-lists-and-the-case-against-xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me). While my intended audiences were primarily fellow microformat enthusiasts and "lower case semantic web" types, there seems to be a larger conversation underway that I'd missed — one that both [Adam "Everyware" Greenfield](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%5FGreenfield?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Tim Berners-Lee](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim%5FBerners-Lee?ref=chrismessina.me) have commented on. In a [treatise against XFN](http://speedbird.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/antisocial-networking/?ref=chrismessina.me) (and similarly reductive expressions of human relationships) from December of last year, Greenfield said a number of profound things: - ...one of my primary concerns has always been that we not accede to the heedless restructuring of everyday human relations on inappropriate and clumsy models derived from technical systems - and yet, that's a precise definition of social networking as currently instantiated. - All social-networking systems constrain, by design and intention, any expression of the full band of human relationship types to a very few crude options — and those static! - ...it's impossible to use XFN to model anything that even remotely resembles an organic human community. I passionately believe that this reductive stance is not merely wrong, but profoundly wrong, in that it deliberately aims to bleed away all the nuance, complication and complexity that makes any real relationship what it is. - I believe that technically-mediated social networking at any level beyond very simple, local applications is fundamentally, and probably persistently, a bad idea. From where I stand, the only sane response is to keep our conceptions of friendship and affinity from being polluted by technical metaphors and constraints to begin with. Whew! Strong stuff, but useful, challenging and insightful. Meanwhile, TBL [defended a semi-autistic perspective](http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech%5Fand%5Fweb/article3532832.ece?ref=chrismessina.me) in describing the future of the Semantic Web (yes, the uppercase version): > At the moment, people are very excited about all these connections being made between people — for obvious reasons, because people are important — but I think after a while people will realise that there are many other things you can connect to via the web. While my sympathies actually lie with Greenfield (especially after a weekend [getting my mom setup on Facebook](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/771562771?ref=chrismessina.me) so she could send me photos without clogging my inbox with 80MB emails... a deficiency in the design of the technology, *not my mother* mind you!), I also see the promise of a more self-aware, self-descriptive web. But, realistically, that web is a *long* way off, and more likely, that web is still going to need human intervention to make it work — at least for humans to benefit from it (oh sure, just get rid of the humans and the network will be *just* perfect — like planes without passengers, right?). But in the meantime, there is a social web that needs to be improved, and that can be improved, in fairly simple and straight-forward ways, that will make it easier for regular folks who don't (and shouldn't have to) care about "[data portability](http://dataportability.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)" and "[password anti-patterns](http://adactio.com/journal/1357?ref=chrismessina.me)" and "[portable contact lists](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/11/portable-contact-lists-and-the-case-against-xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me)" to benefit from the fact that the family and friends they care about are increasingly accessible online, and *actually* want to hear from them! Even though [Justin Smith](http://insidefacebook.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) takes another reductive look at the *features* Facebook is implementing, claiming that it wants to "[own communications with your friends](http://insidefacebook.com/2008/03/16/facebook-wants-to-own-communication-with-your-friends/?ref=chrismessina.me)", the reality is, people actually *want* to communicate with each other online! Therefore it follows that, if you're a place where people connect and re-connect with one another, it's not all that surprising that a site like Facebook would invest in and make improvements to [facilitate interaction and communication](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2008/03/17/its-about-interaction-stupid-2/?ref=chrismessina.me) between their members! But let's back up a minute. If we take for granted that people do want to connect and to communicate on social networks (they seem to do it a lot, so much to that one might could even argue that people *enjoy* doing it!), what role should so-called "portable contact lists" play in this situation? I buy Greenfield's assertion that attempts by technologists to reduce human relationships to a predefined schema (based on prior behavior or not) is a failing proposition, but that seems to ignore the opportunity presented by the fact that people are having to maintain many several lists of their friends in many different places, for no other reason than an omission from the design of the *social internetwork*. Put another way, it's not good enough to simply dismiss the trend of social networking because our primitive *technological* expressions don't reflect the complexity of real human relationships, or because humans are just one of kind of "object" to be "semantified" in TBL's "[Giant Global Graph](http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/215?ref=chrismessina.me)"... instead, people are connecting today, and they're wanting to connect to people outside of their chosen "home" network and frankly the experience sucks and it's confusing. It's not good enough to get all prissy about it; the reality is that there are solutions out there today, and there are people working on these things, and we need smart people like Greenfield and Berners-Lee to see that solutions that enable the humanist web (however semantic it needs to be) are being prioritized and built... and that we \[need\] not accede to the heedless restructuring of everyday human relations on inappropriate and clumsy models derived from technical systems. I can say that, from what I've observed so far, these are things that computers can do for us, to make the social computing experience *more humane*, should we establish simple and straightforward means to express a basic list of contacts between contexts: - help us find and connect to people that we've already indicated that we know - introduce us to people who we might know, or based on social proximity, *should* know (with no obligation to make friends, of course!) - help us from accidently bumping into people we'd rather not interact with (see [block-list portability](http://microformats.org/wiki/block-list?ref=chrismessina.me)) - helping us to segment our friendships in ways that make sense to us (rather than the semi-arbitrary ways that social networks define) - helping us to confidently share things with just the people with whom we intend to share There may be others here, but off the top of my head, I think satisfying these basic tasks is a good start for any social network that thinks allowing you to connect and interact with people who *you* might know, but who may not have already signed up for the service, is useful. I should make one last point: when thinking about importing contacts from one context to another, I **do not** think that it should be an *unthinking act*. That is, just because it's merely data being copied between servers, the reality is that those bits represent things much more sacred and complicated than any computer might ever be *programmed to imagine*. Therefore, just because we can facilitate and lower the friction of "bringing your friends with you" from one place to another doesn't mean that it should be an automatic process and that all your friends in one place should be made to be your friends in the new place. And regardless of how often good ol' Mark Zuckerberg claims that the end game is to make communications *more efficient*, when it comes to relationships, every connection transposed from one context to another should have to be reconsidered (hmm, a great argument for tagging of contacts...)! We can and should not make assumptions about the nature of people's relationships, no matter what kind of semantics they've used to describe them in a given context. Human relationships are simply far too complicated to be left up to assumptions and inferences made by technologists whose affinity oftentimes lies closer to the data than to the makers of the data. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Assaf](http://labnotes.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-20 00:24:19 At it's core the Semantic relationship is about what a computer algorithm could infer from data present to it lacking all other knowledge. And there's the mistake. My contact list is very simple. It's actionable. I list people because I want to interact with them. And I put them in buckets that fit those interactions. Invited to my next party? You go in the "socialize with" bucket (aka friends, but not really). Share the TPS report with you? You must be in the "NDA sharing" bucket (aka co-worker, but not always). Plans for the holiday? How about the "you don't get to choose" bucket (aka family). Want to know how I relate to people in different buckets? Watch my actions. If you watch my actions, you won't have to infer anything from the bucket name (or risk guessing wrong), you'll have all the information you need. If you want to assume that you know me based on some blueprint, but don't want to watch and pay attention to what you do, then you probably care more about the bucket name. Like you said, that would be the semi-autistic worldview. It's not that the relationships are complex, fluids and hard to pin down, but the fact that there's not relationship information conveyed in the bucket name. It's an illusion created by someone who gave me a checkbox, and the closest thing to "socialize with" that wasn't family or co-workers was friends. So I conformed but in doing so lied. What I really meant was "people I'll mass invite to the next party". So think of it in terms of me person, and buckets that make it easier to group actions/people together. By analogy, the Semantic way is another attempt to create a super-smart keyword-assisted search engine to organize all the world's knowledge. But the me person way of looking at things, is the equivalent of PageRank. And we know which one worked better. Just let the data be and observe what happens. **[David Hayes](http://www.davidrhayes.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-20 06:50:50 Hey, I'm the guy who asked that "discretization of human relationships" question at SXSW. Great panel, BTW. ( = I think Assaf is correct (mostly). Don't ask me what my relationship is because humans are bad at exactly specifying things; in fact, I'd say that perfect accuracy is an enemy to a healthy human relationship, especially once you try and plumb the fractal depths of human experience. I think that relationships are fluid and complex and hard to pin down, though. If I haven't contacted someone for more than six months on your social network, then the network might think we're not friends... but it wasn't watching me in RL talking to them every day. Or if it \*was\* watching me talk to someone in RL every day (via a GPS-enabled phone, say) then it might assume we're best pals when in reality we're forced to work together despite our differences. I think trying to ferret out the deeper meaning behind the connection isn't that valuable. What can your network do for me when it knows my close friends vs. acquaintances vs. unfriendlies? Actually, heck, that's a good question: What will the network do for me once it knows the qualities of my relationships? **[Mark Johnson](http://deliberateambiguity.typepad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-20 10:03:41 Excellent point: because we don't yet have the ability to mirror the complexity of human relationships online does not imply that it could never happen. Instead of complaining about reductivism, the real question should be: what are the abstract qualities of our human relationships that any online system \*should\* mirror. I never trust anti-reductivists who rely on some mystical qualitative character of an experience. One might ask also what kinds of \*new\* interactions social networks enable. Twitter/Status updates are a good example: it doesn't make sense for me to snail mail or even e-mail all of my friends when I do something, but Twittering gives me a channel to spread news to those who care. **[Social Graph: Shifting Toward Quality « The Real McCrea](http://therealmccrea.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/social-graph-shifting-toward-quality/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-20 10:17:59 \[...\] Messina just did a post on this topic, too, though from a more technical perspective, thinking through whether and how we can better \[...\] **[Alexander van Elsas](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-20 10:44:14 Chris, another great article. I think it's amazing to see that a great tech dude like yourself keeps challenging technology for the sake of its users! The problem is pretty complicated, I agree with you(and Sir Berners-lee) on that. What strikes me about this is that it isn't very complicated for one factor in the equation. Humans are quite capable of handling complex relationships. We might "know" or be linked to thousands of people on-line but we usually instantly know the value of our relation to those people. Another way to think about this problem is not to think about the relationships themselves, but maybe look at the ways I want to communicate or interact with them. There are a lot of different ways to communicate now, and often thee ways say something about the relationship too. For example. I SMS a lot (Europe right), but the people I SMS, I know quite well (family, friends, co-workers). When I Twitter, I simply join in on an on-line conversation with many people. Some of these I know, others I barely ever interact with. When I respond to your blog, I do this because I believe you write excellent stuff which triggers my thoughts again. In each of these cases the relationship I have with others is different. I'm not your best friend, and even though we have never met (yet) I take the time to follow the things you write. I never, ever, fill out those dumb question forms from Facebook, or any other data hogger trying to get his hands on "my social graph". Its for two reasons, first I don't see the need for them to know that stuff, but secondly I do not see any added value in registering that info. It doesn't remotely reflect the relationship I have with these people. I think that the basic stuff you mentioned are probably worthwhile implementing. Personally I am becoming quite fond of the way Friendfeed lets me meet new people. I don't use the serve very often yet (for other reasons), but the neat thing there is that if I follow Chris Messina, I also get to see things from the people you care to follow. A natural way of meeting new people. Finally, this is almost as long as an average blog post of mine ;-), I wonder if we can turn this problem upside down. Why not let me have all my friends with me on a place that belongs to me, and me only. I could then visit services, and if they are willing to service me, bring along some of my friends.Technically, this would end the destination problem every service currently has (who has the biggest). I could visit Facebook just once, and send a poke to someone I know fro the sake of it, even if both him and I aren't registered users on Facebook. Wishful thinking I guess. **[Dave Taylor](http://www.intuitive.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-20 11:24:51 I think there's a simple approach that would work very well for my 300+ FB contacts, 600+ LI contacts, and 3500+ MS contacts: a "relationship strength" slider. Leave the interpretation of strength relatively ambiguous so that I can decide what it really means \*for me\*, but a slider that goes from 'weak connection' to 'strong connection' would be great. Then, elsewhere in the social app, let me filter my contacts / connections based on strength. This works both with social and professional connections and is quick, easy and quite manageable. I hate the Facebook "categorize your relationship with this person" grid, but hate even more that I can't have any qualitative indicator on my connections on LinkedIn, MySpace, FriendFeed, etc etc etc. Trying to perfectly model all human relationships in a grid or series of values, however, is crazy. We'll never have any improvement because we'll all just disagree and never get beyond stage 1... **[zeldman](http://www.zeldman.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-20 17:16:01 Good stuff. **[sbdc» Blog Archive » links for 2008-03-22](http://blog.seanbonner.com/2008/03/22/links-for-2008-03-22/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-21 23:30:07 \[...\] Relationships are complicated | FactoryCity (tags: data identity relationships social xfn) \[...\] **[Bradley Allen](http://bradleyallen.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-22 15:33:08 I'm just glad you folks are beginning to talk about these issues and have quoted Adam Greefield. I remember when Tantek decorated the offices of Technorati with an XFN poster like wasn't it just the coolest thing ever and I thought, "Oh no he didn't!" But he did. I figured maybe there was something I just didn't understand, or wasn't willing to... because I certainly didn't feel comfortable reducing my fellow human relationships to a list of checkboxes. Especially in public. **[Delicious Links - 20 links - friendfeed, lifehacks, blogging, programming, wordpress « // Internet Duct Tape](http://internetducttape.com/2008/03/24/delicious-links-20-links-friendfeed-lifehacks-blogging-programming-wordpress/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-23 22:06:01 \[...\] \[SOCIALSOFTWARE\] Relationships are complicated, factoryjoe.com \[...\] **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-24 18:43:26 +1 on the manual import (not unthinking) for humans. I would personally prefer the magic auto-import, but definitely see why one might not want to. **[Dreaming away about a user centric web « Alexander van Elsas’s Weblog on new media & technologies and their effect on social behavior](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/dreaming-away-about-a-user-centric-web/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-26 07:47:29 \[...\] 26, 2008 ¡ No Comments FactoryJoe wrote an interesting post earlier called “Relationships are complicated”. In this post he talks about the (technical) difficulties to support complex (on-line) \[...\] **Arvind Ashok** ¡ 2008-03-27 09:24:44 very interesting read, and some insightful comments. two comments in particular - Assaf & Dave Taylor focus on a method/tool which would work for them. Focusing on the main article, especially related to the bulleted list about making things humane - the reason soc nets make arbitrary buckets is because we are using them for many reasons and not for a clearly defined one. Using a network for talking to friends and maintaining a relationship with all your clients on the same network as the same person is where this arbitrariness and confusion and misrepresentation sets in. Facebook's new permissioning is a small work-around this but still not powerful enough and it is hard to get right. And these are just work arounds and not really a complete and intelligent solution. Maybe thats 3.0 and we are trying to get to atleast 2.5 now. **[Bedroomation » Web things that must die #2: XFN](http://www.bedroomation.com/?p=7&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-07 07:02:53 \[...\] Messina’s follow-up post to the one where he makes his case against XFN is a more useful discussion, starting as it does with a concern for real human needs that users have on sites that exist now. However, he also expresses an affinity for a very acidic post by Adam Greenfield in December 2007\. Why doesn’t he then conclude that any mention of XFN should be ditched? Greenfield’s diatribe is mostly on point, and all of the quotes that Messina bullet-points in his post align with what I have been arguing here. While Greenfield’s argument about the uselessness of defining terms when you don’t allow the use of the opposite - often reduced to the argument that we should be able to express enemy relations as well as friend relations - is a bit of a faux ami, as the problem isn’t the linguistic impotence of the terms used but, more basically, the artificial limitations on choice of words, he makes a very resonant point about the most important facts of our relationships not being made explicit for the sake of social comfort and coherence. XFN is an unnecessary layer. Why is the fact of linking someone within a particular designated context, qualified by other observable facts from elsewhere on the Web, not meaningful in of itself? In real life, we invite people to parties, and then other people may infer that we are friends with those people we have invited. If we had to qualify those invitations with explicit word on whether, in individual cases, they constituted an act of friendship, we’d just be creating discord for ourselves. That’s why we don’t do it. \[...\] **[sbdc» Blog Archive » Wish List: Contact Priorities](http://blog.seanbonner.com/2008/04/13/wish-list-contact-priorities/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-13 18:13:43 \[...\] been thinking a lot about some of the recent talk about how to classify relationships online and how that translates, at least for me, into actual practice. The truth is that as \[...\] ### Portable contact lists and the case against XFN URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/portable-contact-lists-and-the-case-against-xfn/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:51.000Z ![XFN](http://img.skitch.com/20080311-6pkba6rrhk9h8demkii4yfi2a.png) I suppose it might come as a surprise that I've decided to question, if not reject, XFN as the format for expressing portable friends or contact lists. I'm not throwing out the baby in the bathwater here, but rather focusing on the problem that needs to be solved and choosing to redouble my efforts on an elegant solution that builds on existing work and implementations. My thinking on this crystalized yesterday during the [Building Portable Social Networks panel](http://2008.sxsw.com/interactive/programming/panels%5Fschedule/?action=show&id=IAP060351&ref=chrismessina.me) that I shared with [Jeremy Keith](http://adactio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Leslie Chicoine](http://lesliechicoine.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Joseph Smarr](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [David Recordon](http://davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). I further [defined my realization](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/769632445?ref=chrismessina.me) last night on Twitter and when [Anders Conbere](http://anders.conbere.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) pinged me about a [post he'd written](http://anders.conbere.org/journal/dynamic-foaf-issues-xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me) more or less on the subject, I knew that I was on to something. The idea itself is pretty simple, but insomuch as it reduces both complexity and helps narrow the scope of evangelism work needed to push for further adoption, I think the change is a necessary one.→ Quite simply, **contact list portability can be achieved with only** [**rel-contact**](http://gmpg.org/xfn/11?ref=chrismessina.me#contact) **and** [**rel-me**](http://gmpg.org/xfn/11?ref=chrismessina.me#me). All the rest is gravy.Here's the deal: as it is, we have a [pretty nasty anti-pattern](http://adactio.com/journal/1357?ref=chrismessina.me) that [a number of us](http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-anti-patterns?ref=chrismessina.me) have been railing against for [some time](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/19/public-nuisance-1-importing-your-contacts/?ref=chrismessina.me) (and, as it turns out, with [good friggin' reason](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/your%5Femail%5Fpassword%5Fa%5Ftrue%5Fhor.php?ref=chrismessina.me)). As I pointed out on the panel yesterday, people shouldn't be penalized for the fact that the technology allows them to be promiscuous with their account credentials; after all, their desire to connect with people that they know is a valid one and has been shown to increase engagement on social sites. The problem is that, heretofore, importing your list of contacts from various webmail address books required you to provide your account credentials to an untrusted third party. On top of that, your contact list is delivered as email addresses, which I call "resource deficient" (what else can you do with an email address but send messages to it or use it as a key to identify someone? URLs are *much* richer). The whole mechanism for bringing with your friends to new social sites is broken. ### Enter microformats and XFN The solution we've been harping on for the last couple years is a web-friendly solution for marking up existing and (predominantly) public lists of friends, using 18 pre-defined [rel values](http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq?ref=chrismessina.me). WordPress supports XFN natively and is one of the primary reasons we started with WordPress as the foundation of the [DiSo Project](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me): [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/429470994/?ref=chrismessina.me)Reading up on the [background of XFN](http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/background?ref=chrismessina.me), you realize that one of the primary goals of XFN was *simplicity*. Simplicity is relative however, and you have to remember that XFN's simplicity was in contrast to [FOAF](http://www.foaf-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), a much denser and complex format based on RDF. Given all the [values](http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/11?ref=chrismessina.me) (that is, the existing XFN terms) and the generally *semantic* specificity of XFN, I decided to contrast the adoption of XFN by publishers and by consumers with the competing (and more ubiquitous) solution for contact list portability (i.e. email address import). If you use Google's new [Social Graph API](http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/?ref=chrismessina.me) and actually go looking for XFN data (for example, on Twitter or Flickr or [others](http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-implementations?ref=chrismessina.me)), you'll find that, by and large, the majority of XFN links on the web are using either `rel-contact` or `rel-me`. If you're lucky, you might find some `rel-friend`s in there, but after rel-me and rel-contact, the use of the other 16 terms falls off considerably. Compound that fact with the minor semantic distinction between "contacts" and "friends" on different sites (sites like Dopplr dispense altogether with these terms, opting for "fellow travelers") and you quickly begin to wonder if the "semantic richness" of XFN is really just "semantic deadweight". And, in terms of evangelism and potential adoption, this is critical. If 16 of the 18 XFN terms are just cruft, how can we maintain our credibility, especially when arguing against the email import approach, in which there are little to no semantic descriptors at the time of import (instead, you basically get a dumb list of email addresses — with no clues whatsoever as to which addresses are "sweethearts", "crushes", "kin" or the like). It's not that XFN in and of itself is bad, it's that, when compared with the reigning tactic of email import, we look as complicated and convoluted as FOAF did. The reality is, even if it's "heinous" to data purists or pragmatists, email import works today, and what works, wins. ### Defining Contact List Portability The more I talk to [Leslie](http://lesliechicoine.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (of [Satisfaction](http://getsatisfaction.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)), the more sensitive I become to the language that we use when we talk about the technologies that we work on. I mean, what the fuck is an "XFN"? Even "social network portability" probably causes rational people to break out in hives when they hear the phrase (not like we've hit mainstream or anything). I mean, from a usability perspective, the words we use to describe this stuff is about as usable as Drupal was five years ago (*zing!*). I can only imagine that when we technologists open our mouths, this is what goes through most people's heads: \[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ\_9k&w=425&h=373\] SO, I'm not advocating ditching XFN altogether; on the contrary, compared with FOAF, I think we've achieved a great deal of mindshare, at least in gaining the support of technologists who work on fairly large social sites (though that's apparently being [disputed](http://groups.google.com/group/microformats/browse%5Fthread/thread/559cb4d06dc50c30?ref=chrismessina.me)). The next stage of the process should be to simplify, and to focus on what people are already doing and on what's working. If we simply want to defeat the email import approach (which I think is a good idea, albeit with the caveat that we still need a notification mechanism — perhaps something easily ignorable like Facebook-app invites?), then I think we need to consolidate our efforts on rel-contact and rel-me and let people discover (and optionally implement) the remaining 16 values if they're bored. Or have free time. As far as I'm concerned, they offer little to no *actual* utility when it comes to contact list portability. So to the definition of *contact list portability*, I would suggest that it's the ability to take a list of identifiers (*read:* URLs, formerly email addresses) that represent people that you know and connect with them in a new context (bonus points if by "taking" you read that as "subscribing" (but not "syncing")). This is consistent with [Joseph's](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Practical Vision for Friends-List Portability](http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation/sabanci-34007-Smarr-IIW-Friends-List-Portability-problem-fallout-vision-building-blocks-am-know-use-data-practical-as-Entertainment-ppt-powerpoint/?ref=chrismessina.me). It also importantly ignores the non-overlapping problems of groupings/relationship semantics and permissioning (things which [should *not* be conflated](http://groups.google.com/group/diso-project/msg/94088b45413d9c81??ref=chrismessina.me)!). ### What's next [Kveton](http://kveton.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [agrees with me](http://twitter.com/kveton/statuses/769632316?ref=chrismessina.me); Recordon [dissents](http://twitter.com/daveman692/statuses/769632285?ref=chrismessina.me), wanting more extensibility. I get Dave's point, but before we worry about extensibility, we have to look at what minimal bits of XFN *are* being picked up. By only specifying that an outgoing link is either a "contact" or "another link of mine", we greatly reduce the cognitive tax of grokking the problem that XFN set out to solve and minimize the implementation tax of rolling out the necessary logic and template changes. Ultimately, it also simplifies the dataset, and pushes the semantics of relationships deeper into applications where I'd argue they belong (again, looking at the Dopplr model as well as Pownce (friends, fans, fan of) and Twitter (following, followers). While the other 16 XFN values are certainly not off limits, their marginal value is negligible compared with the cost of explaining why anyone should care of about them (let along understand them — i.e. "muse"??). *And*, compared with emails for identifiers, [URLs](http://kveton.com/blog/2008/01/03/urls-are-people-too-and-service-end-points/?ref=chrismessina.me) [are](http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/01/urls-are-people-too.html?ref=chrismessina.me) [definitely](http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2008/02/urls-are-people-too.html?ref=chrismessina.me) the [future](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/01/03/its-high-time-we-moved-to-url-based-identifiers/?ref=chrismessina.me). So, with that, I'm no longer going to both with advocating for the complete adoption of XFN. Instead, I'm going to advocate for supporting *Contact List Portability* by implementing rel-me and rel-contact (a "subset" of XFN). And that's it. This won't solve the problems that Anders is [talking about](http://anders.conbere.org/journal/dynamic-foaf-issues-xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me), but I think it's radical simplification that's been long overdue in the effort towards social network portability. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 13:10:34 rel=contact and rel=me are the musts - the starting lines. They're all services like Facebook, Myspace, and Twitter normally give you. I do like the flexibility of marking rel=kin or rel=friend though. Even rel=met. **[Jim King](http://www.elroyjetson.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 13:16:13 Not that I disagree or agree with you at this point, but I wonder if some of the problem right now is that there is little to distinguish if someone is a friend (close tie) as opposed to someone that is either an acquaintance or simply someone with an interest in what I have to say. Social networks seem to not deal with this well. I have information I want to share with friends, but not always with those that are merely interested in what I have to say. Wouldn't it be better to have "friends" tagged in a more granular way? **[Dirk Olbertz](http://identoo.com/dirk.olbertz?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 13:24:10 I agree that rel=me and rel=contact are the essentials for weaving the "social graph". All the other xfn attributes (along with tags) are somewaht more private data and should only used by me to organize the contacts. I'm not sure wether anyone beside me should now, who belongs to my family. And if it is not for public eyes, why should be it in the markup anyway? **[Ken Kennedy](http://kenzoid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 13:24:18 I dig it. When I did my own XFN wire-up, I did use stuff like "friend" and "muse", but I had to stop and think...is he a friend? What about a muse...yada yada. In the end, rel-contact and rel-me identify the endpoints, and the rest of the stuff can emerge from the relations. Great idea...make it as easy as possible. **[Ian McKellar](http://ian.mckellar.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 13:37:24 It's like you're retroactively applying the microformats process (cowpaths). FWIW, I think most of XFN isn't that valuable. It's too complicated and subjective to be obvious but not complete and structured enough (like FOAF) to be useful. rel-me + rel-contact solves the 90% case. Instead of necessarily trying to capture, define and classify human relationships (WTF muse?) simply capturing the existence of a relationship (rel-contact) is a good first step. I think more advanced contact list portability work should be centered around user-tagged groups. LiveJournal, Pownce and Facebook all allow users to define groups/sets/lists of contacts and then control privacy and publishing on their content based on those lists. This is effectively allowing users to tag their relationships. I think that's an incredibly powerful, useful concept. It's important to remember that it's different from tagging a person - I might mark you as "ex-coworker", but that doesn't say anything about you - just about our relationship. We can build all the concepts of XFN on top of this if we need them - and most importantly we can just watch and see what the millions of users already creating this kind of data out there on the web are doing. Ian **[Marcin Jagodzi?ski](http://marcin.openid.pl/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 13:39:43 I'm with you. Extensibility is a good thing but it needs a base. Two simple attributes make good base for future extensions. **[Tom Morris](http://tommorris.org/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 13:42:17 Complex and convoluted? You read the FOAF spec? It's got one person-to-person relationship - foaf:knows. It originally had foaf:knowsWell and foaf:friend too but these were dropped. **[Mike Reynolds](http://mikereynolds.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 13:53:50 Chris, I literally began digging into microformats last week. My initial feeling was that rel="me" and rel="friend" were pretty much all that is needed. Question: Once we get DataPortability of private data, can microformats be used to specify levels of privacy? Are the permissions tied globally to people, or is there a special type of permission per content piece? Not sure this is well though through yet, but it sounds like it's a good time to think this through. Cheers, Mike **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 13:59:11 Tom Morris Âť Sigh. Why is it that whenever I say something with a 0.01% mention of RDF, you ignore the main point and focus on that minor and inessential component? You could have pointed out that I'm admitting that XFN \*is\* convoluted! Oy. Anyway, if FOAF was only "knows", then we could talk. ;) **[Nick Dynice](http://openid.claimid.com/nsputnik?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 14:32:22 I take "muse" to mean "fan of," at least that is how I have been using it. But you are right, I might treat muse, contact, and friend all the same way. Rather than try and get rid of all of the other attributes that are already out in the wild (and I am guessing you are not suggesting this), maybe it should be the responsibility of the XFN parsing app developers to treat everything as a rel="contact" except for rel="me." Maybe it is time to put all [XFN declarations behind an OAuth layer](http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/02/04/just%5Fbecause%5Fwe.html?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-320510). Having them out in the public helped XFN to gain traction, but maybe more can be done with them once they are private. This could be a feature in DiSo. **[Tom Morris](http://tommorris.org/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 14:38:46 Chris: because that's my area of interest and understanding. I am not calling into question your main point (it's probably a lot easier to get rel-contact and rel-me out to social network site owners than the full set of XFN predicates). I'm just trying to make sure we keep the facts straight. Sorry if it came across as being being petty or squabbly. That was not the intention. **[Pius Uzamere](http://toohardtopronounce.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 15:43:48 Hmm. I get what you're saying, but I think it's insignificant in the face of the broader problem with XFN and other microformats. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the complexity of XFN adds so much cognitive load that it will interfere with the adoption of XFN. I just don't buy that. Here are the types of people who implement XFN. Group 1: Standardistas and semantic web folks who write libraries that produce and consume XFN. Group 2: Vanguard developers who write other application libaries and frameworks. Group 3: People who use what Groups 1 and 2 produce. Group 4: People who write out or consume XFN by hand. Group 4 is extremely small and they're mostly semantics enthusiasts doing one-off implementations for their blogs anyway, so they don't mind. Group 3 doesn't care about the complexity you've described because they're mostly abstracted away from it anyway. That leaves Groups 1 and 2\. It seems unlikely that the maverick standardistas in Group 1 are daunted by the prospect of implementing the additional granularity of XFN. And if they are, well, it's "your" fault. Yep, I said it. It's "your" fault where "you" are any person responsible for steering the Microformats effort. When you publish a standard, you've got an obligation to provide a set of reference implementations for it, if you want anyone to use it. While I admire the efforts that have lead to the penetration of XFN into the likes of Wordpress and Technorati, the folks pushing XFN and other Microformats (as well as many of the folks pushing RDF-based semantics) have unfortunately not done the best job of providing, or at least publicizing, implementations for their standards. And by providing reference implementations, I don't mean web interfaces like XFN Creator, which are useful for Group 4 developers. Once you've got a set of reference implementations, you can evangelize the standard to Group 2 developers -- the David Heinemeier Hanssons, the Adrian Holovatys, etc. Any user who'd be deterred by the complexity of the XFN implementation ought not be seeing it in the first place. Gutting the standard 'til it's nearly meaningless is a cop-out and will only retard the goals of the Microformat in the long run. **[Alexandre Loureiro Solleiro](http://webcracy.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 16:01:22 Applications that are generating XFN lists, other than WP, do so based on their own relationship models: you, your contacts. They don't care if X is your colleague. They care if you want to receive notifications from X, and that's out of the XFN scope. But from the user perspective, and this should be about user-centricity, a family-centric social network, or a collaboration application, should be able to subscribe to the relevant portions of an XFN list: kin, colleagues or co-workers. So, according to your definition of contact list portability, I don't think you should advocate the use of rel-me and rel-contact only. You should advocate the virtues of XFN subscription. Meaning users having well formed XFN lists at an URL and applications knowing how to filter them. It's a lot harder, but it's the real deal, me thinks. In the meanwhile, considering what isn't rel-me to be rel-contact might good enough for both users and developers. We'll still have to agree to who we want to connect to in every application, right? We've barely started playing with standards-based social software; we should be user-centric all along the way. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 16:41:00 @Jim King: It isn't just that there's no much to distinguish between a friend, contact, acquaintance and the like... it's that there aren't many use cases that demonstrate the value of porting that kind of data. I mean, let's presume that there were a meaningful distinction, as in co-worker and co-resident; I can't think of any site where having access to that data would be all that useful — not on a wide scale anyway. So sure, describing the relationship correctly is a good thing (in general) to do, but as to real data portability, there's just little value as far as I can see. @Ian: +1\. I didn't talk about groups or "groupings" but I agree with you, and is also part of the benefit of this stripped down approach. I keep going back to my AIM BuddyLists and how it stores groups that I put people in — using my own language. Whatever kind of groups or tags we apply to people should follow that model. @Mike Reynolds: While you \*can\* do that, it's probably not wise. I just don't like to mix the semantics of relationships with permissions to "do stuff". For example just because I add you as a friend on Flickr, it doesn't mean that I want you to be a friend in another context, with the access permissions of another domain/context. In general I would say that permissions is an order of magnitude more complicated, and as such, once we have contact list portability, we can look at how best to assign the ability to perform certain actions. @Nick Dynice: Well, that's how I took it, but I got in trouble in a past relationship for linking to another woman as a "muse", worse, with a link that existed BEFORE that relationship had begun. So, let's just say I'd rather avoid any other kinds of interpretation in the semantics of relationships. It's complicated. Conflating all other XFN values into "contact" might not hurt, but I'm not sure it's a great idea just yet. I'd rather focus on promoting rel-contact generally and using that specific data. As for OAuth, there's no reason we can't do that today, and it's actually what we're doing with DiSo. So, you can publish whatever public link relationships you want, but also conceal other relationships behind an OAuth gateway. @Pius Uzamere: I'm saying that 95% of XFN doesn't do anything useful compared with simply implementing rel-contact and rel-me. The "taxes" that I'm talking about are the perceived costs of doing that implementation; for example, if a developer looks at the docs and has to figure out how to map their existing contact and permission system into XFN, I think they'll balk and walk away. Instead, if all they have to do is add rel-contact to friends and rel-me to a person's homepage, it gets a lot easier for me to evangelize. So, I contest your argument that it's about libraries. Libraries help if you're solving a general problem. As I see it, 16 of the XFN values are not universal. And, in terms of "not providing implementations or reference implementations", you might check out the [implementations](http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations?ref=chrismessina.me) page on the microformats wiki. In addition, there aren't lots of implementations because, as I'm arguing here, the entire XFN schema isn't providing a lot of useful value — and you're right: if \*we\* can't provide compelling use cases and implementations, why on earth would anyone else? **[Don MacAskill](http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 16:43:09 Two points: - At SmugMug, we have a significantly large percentage of rel-kin in addition to rel-friend. I think that's valuable data, and shouldn't be ignored. - I think you may be confusing "the current state of XFN implementations" with "the future state implementations that XFN allows". Many sites, SmugMug included, weren't built initially to have the granularity that XFN allows. It's not because we didn't want to - but because we didn't realize we could and that it'd be useful in the future. Now that I've seen the light, we plan on allowing for better categorization of relationships because I think other apps would find it useful. I know I, for one, would much rather import XFN with a variety of detailed rel links rather than just rel-me and rel-contact. I get to do better, richer stuff with less user-interaction as a result. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 17:00:33 @Don MacAskill: Well, you're a model citizen then! ;) I wish that there were more people who shared your vision and interest in the granularity you're talking about. I still see a problem of transcending contexts, especially if people blindly apply permission models based on XFN values. That said, it would be very neat if Flickr published rel-kin links which could be imported or subscribed to within SmugMug... SmugMug shouldn't necessarily provide elevated permissions or access to that group, but make it possible for me to apply different levels of access based on those pre-defined groups. Still, another concern that I have is if I go to import a bunch of "contacts" from Basecamp because I want to share some event photos with them, rel-co-worker doesn't map to existing semantics within Flickr (or SmugMug). In that case, we now have a lossy data exchange. I dunno, would love to continue this conversation and if you can provide a compelling implementation example, I'd \*love\* to see it! ;) **[Don Park](http://donpark.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 17:34:25 great point. rel=me \*by itself\* has a lot of power. using a single URL as the entry point to a cluster of URLs that describe me, I can be described by a diverse set of profile pages/services. i started to write more but it grew into [its own post on doncam.livejournal.com](http://doncam.livejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Thank god for David R. to give some tech cred for posting technical topics on a livejournal blog. ha. **[Pius Uzamere](http://toohardtopronounce.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 17:47:21 @Chris Messina: Thanks for responding. You directed me to the Implementations page on the Microformats wiki. I've followed the wiki for some time, but I revisited it to ensure I haven't missed anything. I think you're conflating "implementations in the wild" with "reference implementations." Let me elaborate on the distinction, as it's an important one. Implementations in the wild are the several examples of big players using Microformats. That's one place where the team is doing a great job. People like you, Tantek, et al do a great job getting the high-profile friends you've made at SXSW, FOWA, BarCamps, FooCamps, and all of the other avant garde conferences to adopt your formats. Conversely, the hardcore RDF folks convince all their friends at W3C consortia, #swig, et al to use RDF. That's also useful. The problem is that those are not reference implementations. A reference implementation is a library I can install into my app as a baseline for supporting the standard. A standard without a set of reference implementations for the average developer to use is as good as dead. At best, it \*only\* slows down adoption. We're seeing that with Microformats. In almost every other firmware/software based industry (and I can personally vouch for the film industry and the government IT industry) the people who write the standards either create the reference implementations themselves or pay people to do it. OpenID has reference implementations. So does OAuth. As a Ruby developer, I can install gems that quickly get me up and running with the standards. That's great! Those kinds of libraries need to be created or publicized more for microformats and RDF. The people who bashed RDF for being too complex were missing the point, so they pushed Microformats and made the same mistakes as the RDF people. That's why Microformats aren't used by the average developer even though they're literally orders of magnitude simpler than RDF-based formats. If Joe Sixpack has to write his own library to implement your standard, he ain't gonna use it. Joe Sixpack needs a Rails, Symfony, or Django plugin to use, ideally as part of the core framework view helpers. On the RDF side, I'm trying to do my part with my pre-release library, Tamarind (http://github.com/pius/tamarind/tree/master). Maybe we'll add Microformats to it. As to your other point about the other attributes being deadweight . . . speak for yourself! ;) I'm with Don MacAskill on this: I find the other attributes useful. In my case, I actually use the XFN attributes as a default for my relationship schema! One needs to look no further than Facebook to see a use case for having granular relationships. As I said before, I think stripping the semantics out of the format is a cop-out. If the cognitive load for XFN is so much, it means you either need to restructure your documentation or improve your reference implementation (or lack thereof). I think rather than take the damaging step of using your influence to get people to dumb down the standard, you should use the influence to rewrite the documentation of the format so that it does not overwhelm implementations or ask the really talented developers behind the current implementations in the wild to open source their libraries so that they can be used and improved. **[Pius Uzamere](http://toohardtopronounce.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 17:48:42 Oops, "conversely" in the above ought to be "similarly." **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-11 21:07:11 @Alexandre Loureiro Solleiro: Good point. I like the idea of subscribing to subsets of your contact list based on relationships... however, while I agree that defining a subset before hand will help us gain wider adoption, it's unclear whether that approach is ultimately superior to subscribing to self-defined sets of friends, a la Pownce. The problem I see with a lot of the XFN values is that they seem just as arbitrary (when you expand the use cases beyond blogs, which is the context that XFN was extracted from) as user-defined tags, so why not simplify down to something that a lot more sites are likely to adopt? THEN, once we've convinced them that rel-contact and rel-me are useful, we can begin to add additional granularity. It isn't that I don't value richer semantic links to contacts, only that, in the amount of time we've been advocating their adoption, we've had little web-wide adoption or even interest (compared, again, with the basic rel-contact and rel-me values). I suppose at this point I'd rather get those two adopted \*very\* widely and then come back again and see what the semantics of the relationships that are being expressed in the wild are. Then again, with DiSo perhaps we can demonstrate how this stuff could and should work, and we'll be able to drive further adoption of the full spectrum of XFN values; in the meantime, I'm just not convinced that it's worth my effort right now. @Pius Uzamere: Maybe I should have pointed you here? http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers Still, I take your point, and what you're describing is why Steve Ivy and I started the [DiSo Project](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). I agree that we need reference implementations to demonstrate both use cases and how this stuff should be done. Unfortunately, not being a developer myself, I'm a little hamstrung, being able to primarily contribute mindshare, attention and peer pressure. ;) So your point about finding the other values useful: any reason why you can't do the same thing with an xfolk-like contact list schema that supports tags? **[Elias Bizannes](http://liako.biz/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-12 04:26:40 All I know, is that when one of my ex's or previous hookups finds me on Facebook, it's damn awkward. The cognitive factor alone of trying to appropriately classify a relation with someone is reason enough to go bare bones. Classifying people is a socially awkward excerise. Good discussion above, thank you. **[Cristiano on Tech/Life » My Bookmarks For March 11th - March 12th](http://blog.cristianobetta.com/2008/03/12/my-bookmarks-for-march-11th-march-12th/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-12 05:04:05 \[...\] Portable contact lists and the case against XFN - Messina has a nice article up about the over complexity of XFN and suggests promoting a simpler subset of Contact List Portability instead. \[...\] **[Christian Scholz](http://mrtopf.de/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-12 05:58:43 I agree that I also usually make very low use of the these attributes except me or contact. I also agree that many of the others are maybe not that much meant for public assumption. But what I'd actually like is a more freeform approach to tag my relationships and port them across networks. E.g. on network X I could say "import everything tagged with business and family". Or I can use this information to give certain permissions to my assets on a network (think of flickr's friend and family settings). To me this fixed list of possibilities if also too limited and expressing what I want to filter, I personally might also like to state from which community I know this contact etc. So one idea would be to only make "me" and "contact" publically available but also provide custom tags for consumption after another service gets authorized to retrieve them (e.g. via OAuth). But using custom tags for your contacts would probably be a different standard. **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-12 06:39:48 @Pius Uzamere - OAuth and OpenID are /protocols/ XFN et al are /formats/. How could one give a drop-in library for generating XFN? Give it an array of urls and values and get HTML? That's seems /harder/ for developers. **[links for 2008-03-13 « Kaigani’s Arbor Vitae](http://kaigani.wordpress.com/2008/03/13/links-for-2008-03-13/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-12 16:44:07 \[...\] Portable contact lists and the case against XFN | FactoryCity (tags: foaf dataportability microformats opensocial xfn) \[...\] **[Benjamin Stover](http://stechz.myvidoop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-13 08:12:15 It might be helpful to think about "WWFD" (What Would Facebook Do? -- and if you hate Facebook, insert your favorite site there). Say I'm making a social networking site about pickle lovers called p.ckle (borrowing inspiration from a coworker) and I want to use XFN. I can think of two places I'd immediately need to add it (for in and out): 1\. In: When picklelover79 import contacts from somewhere, I use "rel=me" for identity and any other non-empty rel links (maybe even ones that aren't part of XFN), figure out which ones have p.ckle accounts, and add them as pickle pals. Since users might not want to import everyone ("I don't think sxalexander understands my passion for pickles") I would then give them fine-grained control over which of the contacts p.ckle found to import (think a bunch of names and checkboxes). 2\. Out: On a user's public (or private) pickle page that enumerates picklelover79's pickle pals, I might do two things. If I was lazy, I might list everyone as "rel=contact". Otherwise, I would just duplicate the XFN tags from the page I imported them from. I see one big usability problem with how I implemented p.ckle: when importing a lot of contacts, I have no good way to import specific sets of contacts ("I have 500 friends and only 40 of them enjoy pickles"). If tags were completely user defined, when I first added my friends on twitter, I might have tagged them as "pickle-enthusiast". When I found out about p.ckle it then becomes much easier to import what I want. Each social application could even autotag individuals based on whatever (twitter-import, for instance). **[Benjamin Stover](http://stechz.myvidoop.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-13 08:21:49 It might be helpful to think about "WWFD" (What Would Facebook Do? -- and if you hate Facebook, insert your favorite site there). Say I'm making a social networking site about pickle lovers called p.ckle (borrowing inspiration from a coworker) and I want to use XFN. I can think of two places I'd immediately need to add XFN functionality (for in and out): 1\. In: When picklelover79 import contacts from somewhere, p.ckle uses "rel=me" for identity and any other non-empty rel links (maybe even ones that aren't part of XFN) as potential contacts, figure out which potentials have p.ckle accounts, and then add the ones that do as pickle pals. Since users might not want to import everyone ("I don't think sxalexander understands my passion for pickles") p.ckle would give them fine-grained control over which of the contacts p.ckle found to import (think a bunch of names and checkboxes). 2\. Out: On a user's public (or private) pickle page that enumerates picklelover79's pickle pals, I might do one of two things. If I was lazy programmer, I might list everyone as "rel=contact". Otherwise, I would just duplicate the XFN tags from the page I imported them from. I see one big usability problem with how I implemented p.ckle: when importing a lot of contacts, I have no good way to import specific sets of contacts ("I have 500 friends and only 40 of them enjoy pickles"). If tags were completely user defined, when I first added my friends on twitter, I might have tagged them as "pickle-enthusiast". When I found out about p.ckle it then becomes much easier to import what I want. Each social application could even autotag individuals based on whatever (twitter-import, for instance). **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-14 10:41:19 rel=tag FTW **[Adam Greenfield to be Nokia's new Head of Design Direction](http://www.intomobile.com/2008/03/14/adam-greenfield-to-be-nokias-new-head-of-design-direction.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-14 17:42:21 \[...\] relationship to an individual is positive or negative is a valid point, but I would argue that with Chris Messina's ideas of simply using XFN to identify people you know and then build services around that data you remove \[...\] **[Anonymous](http://del.icio.us/chrisjroos/url/4b73b656a7a1be8ce1cabf51021378ed?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-16 11:36:10 **Portable contact lists and the case against XFN | FactoryCity...**... **[Max Design - standards based web design, development and training » Some links for light reading (18/3/08)](http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2008/03/18/some-links-167/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-18 02:35:16 \[...\] Portable contact lists and the case against XFN \[...\] **[Derrick Lyndon Pallas](http://derrick.pallas.us/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-18 21:25:36 You are incorrect with regards to usage patterns. rel-me is in a different league than rel-contact, which actually does compete with (in this order) rel-friend, rel-colleague, rel-met, and rel-co-worker in terms of usage. Q.v. http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-March/011814.html **[zeldman](http://www.zeldman.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-20 17:19:19 rel=contact or rel=me . Simple. **[http://meyerweb.com/](http://meyerweb.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-20 17:51:22 You're probably right that, for contact list portability, that's all of XFN that's needed. The rest of what exists in XFN has very little to do with contact-list portability, though. It was about paving the cowpaths of people expressing their human relationships via hyperlinks, which is a different thing. So I love that you're taking the same approach here. As you know, the Microformats ethos absolutely encourages taking pieces of XFN and spinning it off into XPCL (XHTML Portable Contact Lists), or whatever. In fact, doing so with a v1.0 with just those two values meets the immediate practical needs while also leaving the door open to extensibility in future versions, assuming new values are found to be needed. **[Bedroomation » Web things that must die #2: XFN](http://www.bedroomation.com/?p=7&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-07 06:54:23 \[...\] that he seemed like a thoughtful fellow, I subscribed to his blog feed, and hark! He had written a post the day after the panel speaking of the case against XFN! I’m doubly \[...\] **[Nodalities » Blog Archive » This Week’s Semantic Web](http://blogs.talis.com/nodalities/2008/03/this%5Fweeks%5Fsemantic%5Fweb%5F35.php?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-17 09:07:07 \[...\] Portable contact lists and the case against XFN \[...\] **[Julian Bond](http://www.voidstar.com/yadis.xrds?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 23:09:34 Plus One for this post. Let's take a moment to think about the poor developer writing applications to consume this data. All they're interested in is rel="contact" and rel="me" (and foaf:knows). When they come across rel="crush" what are they going to do? Another google search to find documentation of whether "crush" is a sub-class of "contact", followed by yet another case statement. I'm all for adding richness and extensibility but not at the expense of the consumer developer. If we're going to have sub-types then perhaps the markup should be doubled up. Put both in. Chris says: "And, compared with emails for identifiers, URLs are definitely the future." Well, yes, but, most of the use cases for contact list portability involve matching up what you find with what you already know. Unfortunately email addresses are rather good for that and URLs less so. In an awful lot of sites the "Home Page URL" field is either missing or gets filled with a generic company URL. That's not a very good unique identifier. But even though email is not perfect people always have to put it in, and most people use a single email address on all sites. And again, it's not perfect but mbox\_sha1sum is a pretty good way of passing the unique email identifier while reducing it's openness to abuse. It's unfortunate that there's no obvious way of adding it to the xfn markup. **[Julian Bond](http://www.voidstar.com/yadis.xrds?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-06 23:18:08 BTW. Is the OpenID code doing V2 discovery correctly? It picked up the lower priority (higher numeric) entry in my xrds. **[Dare Obasanjo aka Carnage4Life - Can RDF really save us from data format proliferation?](http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2009/01/12/CanRDFReallySaveUsFromDataFormatProliferation.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-12 06:46:24 \[...\] or less evaporates via RDF. Likewise if we take the current Zoo of contact formats and our seeming inability to commit to one, RDF/OWL can enable a declarative mapping between them. Mapping can reduce the number of man years \[...\] ### An update to my my OpenID Shitlist, Hitlist and Wishlist URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/an-update-to-my-my-openid-shitlist-hitlist-and-wishlist/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:46.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2096218019/?ref=chrismessina.me)Back in December, I posted my [OpenID Shitlist, Hitlist and Wishlist](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/09/my-openid-shitlist-hitlist-and-wishlist-for-2008/?ref=chrismessina.me). I listed 7 companies on my shitlist, 14 on hitlist and 12 on my wishlist. Given that it's been all of two months but we've made some solid progress, I thought I'd go ahead and give a quick update on recent developments. First, the biggest news is probably that [Yahoo has come online](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/01/17/yahoo-implements-openid-massive-win-for-the-project/?ref=chrismessina.me) as an [OpenID 2.0 identity provider](http://openid.yahoo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). This is old news for anyone who's been watching the space, but given that I called them out on my wishlist (and that their coming online tripled the number of OpenIDs) they get serious props, especially since [Flickr profile URLs can now be used as identity URLs](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/flickr%5Fto%5Fauthenticate%5Fopenid.php?ref=chrismessina.me). MyBlogLog (called out on my shitlist) gets a pass here since they're owned by Yahoo, but I'd still like to see them specifically support OpenID consumption Second biggest news is the fact that, via [Blogger](http://blogger.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), Google has [become both an OpenID provider](http://bloggerindraft.blogspot.com/2008/01/new-feature-blogger-as-openid-provider.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (with [delegation](http://bloggerindraft.blogspot.com/2008/01/using-bloggers-openid-with-any-url.html?ref=chrismessina.me)) and [consumer](http://buzz.blogger.com/2007/12/openid-commenting.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Separately, [Brad Fitzpatrick](http://brad.livejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [released](http://brad.livejournal.com/2356944.html?ref=chrismessina.me) the [Social Graph API](http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/?ref=chrismessina.me) and declared that [URLs are People Too](http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2008/02/urls-are-people-too.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Next, I'll give big ups to [PBWiki](http://pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) for *today* [releasing support for OpenID](http://twitter.com/dweekly/statuses/717893702?ref=chrismessina.me) *consumption*. This is a big win considering they were also on my shitlist and I'd previously received assurances that OpenID for PBWiki would be coming. Well, today they delivered, and while there are [opportunities to improve their specific implementation](http://getsatisfaction.com/pbwiki/topics/pbwiki%5Fneeds%5Fto%5Fsupport%5Fopenid?ref=chrismessina.me#reply%5F242051), I'd say that [Joel Franusic](http://joel.franusic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [did a great job](http://twitter.com/jf/statuses/717930082?ref=chrismessina.me). And, in other good news, [Drupal 6.0 came out this week](http://drupal.org/drupal-6.0?ref=chrismessina.me), with [support for OpenID in core](http://drupal.org/node/131026?ref=chrismessina.me) (thanks to [Walkah](http://walkah.net/blog/walkah/dear-drupal-6-be-my-valentine?ref=chrismessina.me)!), so there's another one to take off my hitlist. I'd really like to take [Satisfaction](http://getsatisfaction.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) off my list, since they've [released their API](http://code.google.com/p/getsatisfaction/?ref=chrismessina.me) with [support for OAuth](http://code.google.com/p/getsatisfaction/wiki/UsingOAuth?ref=chrismessina.me), but they've still not added support for OpenID, so they're not out of the woods just yet... even though their implementation of [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) makes me considerably happy. So, that's about it for now. I hear rumblings from Digg that they want to support OpenID, but I've got no hard dates from them yet, which is fine. There're plenty more folks who still need to adopt OpenID, and given the support the [foundation](http://openid.net/foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me) has recently received from [big guys like Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, Verisign and IBM](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/02/07/openid-welcomes-microsoft-google-verisign-and-ibm/?ref=chrismessina.me), my job advocating for this stuff is only getting easier. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Eric Marcoullier](http://www.marcoullier.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-15 20:43:24 FTR, Chris, the MyBlogLog team pressed \*very\* hard to consume OpenIDs in March of 2007 because a) we were big believers and b) it was useful to our business development efforts. At the time, OpenID was highly contentious within the company and a manager up the line of command told me directly that he "didn't care if it meant the end of every deal MyBlogog had," we were not supporting OpenID. As can be seen in recent months, that stance has begun to change and I hope that someday I'll be able to log into MyBlogLog with an OpenID. As a Yahoo service using YahooIDs, though, that is not a decision the team can make. It's a universal yes or a universal no. Thus, "the pass" is appreciated ;) **[Max Design - standards based web design, development and training » Some links for light reading (19/2/08)](http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2008/02/19/some-links-163/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-19 05:36:31 \[...\] An update to my my OpenID Shitlist, Hitlist and Wishlist \[...\] **[Cesar H. Castro Jr](http://www.standardsociety.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-22 15:48:11 Just a thought Chris on the whole OpenID movement. If all these different services start offering Open ID's wouldn't we be right back to using them like email addresses. Let's say someone wants to spam a website who only allows OpenID users to post, couldn't they just go grab a dummy OID url from say ClaimID or Yahoo with a simple sign-up. Its just a thought thats been creepy in the back of my mind. What do you think? **[Stefan Hayden](http://www.stefanhayden.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-06 07:06:44 Is it just me or can no one find the Yahoo server needed to delegate to a different url? If I can't use my own website to use yahoo's openid then it seems mostly useless. I would put yahoo back on the shitlist till they tell people how to delegate. **[Is OpenID Being Exploited By The Big Internet Companies?](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/03/24/is-openid-being-exploited-by-the-big-internet-companies/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-24 03:39:30 \[...\] the way, Chris Messina has done an excellent job of monitoring these and other companies that have promised OpenID support but are yet to implement \[...\] **[Fernando](http://www.openvatar.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-24 08:37:46 We support Openid. Also, Openvatar service, gives avatars for openid accounts. Like gravatar for email address. Greetings. **[Identity Woman » On OpenID Progress: Part of a Bigger Challenge of Identity on the Web](http://www.identitywoman.net/?p=744&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-24 22:02:05 \[...\] Chris Mesina puts forward an in depth post articulating a shitlist, hitlist and wishlist around OpenID along with an update. \[...\] **[GP(MPK)](http://gp.mpk.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-16 07:15:53 @Cesar H. Castro Jr; Perhaps OpenID also it makes it easier to block such spammers by banning certain OID URLs. Or maybe give them diminished capacity. ### Picking the open source candidate URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/picking-the-open-source-candidate/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:45.000Z ![I Voted!](http://img.skitch.com/20080206-tqrsu2cte5wgk4rbi7n9xwiaa4.png) My buddy [whurley](http://whurley.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is at it again, but this time considering which candidate(s) is the most compatible or supportive of open source — in other words, among the many options, [which could be considered the "open source candidate"](http://talk.bmc.com/blogs/blog-whurley/whurley/who-is-best-for-open-source-in-2008?ref=chrismessina.me)? Just as [I voted for Obama yesterday](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2245293038/?ref=chrismessina.me), I voted for Obama today. I'm not sure why, except that 1) [he's on Twitter](http://twitter.com/barackobama?ref=chrismessina.me) and 2) Hillary is more of a "dynasty" type of candidate as opposed to a "meritocratic" candidate (in my limited view) and given that Obama's success seems predicated on his previous good works (rather than inheriting a presidential legacy, let's say), he seems more in line with the nature of open source development. Then again, cognitive science suggests that I can essentially rationalize any irrational decision to explain my actions, so I could just as well chalk it up to gut instinct. Whatever, [here's the poll](http://talk.bmc.com/blogs/blog-whurley/whurley/who-is-best-for-open-source-in-2008?ref=chrismessina.me) if you've got an opinion: [http://s3.polldaddy.com/p/290674.js](http://s3.polldaddy.com/p/290674.js?ref=chrismessina.me) A couple related thoughts and questions:: - How might a candidate demonstrate that they understand or value open source? Just by running Linux? Or something deeper? - What kind of "open source platform" would the ideal candidate support? (using platform in the political sense) That is, getting beyond the software or hardware, how would their policies be affected by ideals and practices derived from the open source ecosystem? - Is it just about transparency, or would the candidate need to understand how open source itself is becoming increasingly important to the economy and to the future of work? - As whurley said in his post, where would an "open source" candidate come down on patent and IP reform? If you've got any inside knowledge about where the candidates sit in terms of open source, I'd love to see some references or stories about their leanings. In the meantime, don't forgot to vote — on [whurley's poll](http://polldaddy.com/p/290674?ref=chrismessina.me)! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Blake Hall](http://blakehall.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-06 16:00:43 I think there are two overwhelming reasons why Obama is the right answer to this question. (\*) He's the only major candidate (that I'm aware of) who has released a comprehensive technology plan. (\*) He's been endorsed by, and [consulted with Lessig](http://lessig.org/blog/Fact%20Sheet%20Innovation%20and%20Technology%20Plan%20FINAL.pdf?ref=chrismessina.me), which tells me he's gotten great IP/Copyright policy advice. [Quoting the XKCD blag](http://blag.xkcd.com/2008/01/28/obama/?ref=chrismessina.me): Lessig was impressed by Obama’s commitment to open systems — for example, his support of machine-readable government information standards that allow citizens’ groups to monitor what our government is up to... **[Daniel Lackey](http://danielandjill.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-06 16:17:43 Check out http://blag.xkcd.com/2008/01/28/obama/ Looks like Obama IS the open source candidate. **[whurley](http://opensville.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-06 18:11:50 Hey Chris, Thanks for posting this! Hopefully we can get a large number (100k plus) of people to share their opinion on this. As with all "open source", the code to the poll is available on my website for anyone who wants to take it. Thanks again for helping drive interest in this! ttys, whurley **Eric** ¡ 2008-02-06 19:50:49 [Obama's position on technology](http://www.barackobama.com/issues/technology/?ref=chrismessina.me) is quite extensive and talks about net neutrality, opening up government data/meetings/process...it's exciting stuff that no one else is talking about. **Gabe Wachob** ¡ 2008-02-06 21:14:36 Chris- I know at least one lawyer who was informally working on IP related issues advising the Obama campaign. She asked me a really basic question on how to develop a patent reform proposal: How would you develop an \*objective\* measure of the quality of a (software) patent? What sort of test would you use? Right now, bad patents are like porn - "you know them when you see them". But how could you show a neutral, uninterested third party (e.g. a court, or the PTO) that a patent was indeed junk. What test would you use. Answer that question and who knows, maybe a presidential candidate would have a patent reform proposal that was interesting... BTW, there is some \*immediate\* action on patent reform happening in the Senate. EFF has a action alert: http://action.eff.org/site/Advocacy?id=361 **Eric** ¡ 2008-02-07 09:01:07 Gabe-- My solution to all problems is software :-) I used to program for a Virginia company that maintains the largest database of patents in the world. They use the database and their own algorithms to figure out where the "holes" are in patent citations...essentially determining the quality of an individual patent by examining the innovation space surrounding it. Really cool stuff -- the USPTO has more or less ignored them though, preferring to stick to their legacy systems. Anyways, the company's called [M-CAM](http://www.m-cam.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). I worked for them 2 summers during college coding Perl. **Todd** ¡ 2008-02-07 10:00:08 What more do you need than this report showing the OS in use at Barack Obama's web site? http://preview.tinyurl.com/2ckzwn **Gabe Wachob** ¡ 2008-02-07 22:29:15 Eric- What exactly is the algorithm/heuristic/metric here? Not quite sure I follow. Just because a patent doesn't (or does) cite other patents, not sure it is an indication of its junk status or not.. **[Eric](http://theredpost.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-08 07:35:00 Gabe-- It's a proprietary system the developed. Essentially, it works like this: every subject patent cites patents it builds off of (prior art). Future patents cite the subject patent (subsequent art). By building a big web of these citations and following all the links between patents, you can figure out where the holes are. So, for example, subject patent cites has 10 prior art patents and 10 subsequent art patents (they cite the subject patent). All subsequent art also cites another patent that the subject doesn't cite. The question becomes, if patents in the same innovation space all cite a particular patent but one doesn't, why? This is a gross oversimplification and there are some other parts to it like determining what patents are similar (this involves some language analysis) but that's the basics of it. **[Andrius Kulikauskas](http://www.pyramidofpeace.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-09 10:09:23 Hi Chris! Greetings from Barcamp Latvia which I have found a very well organized event with about six rooms and maybe two hundred people and I was able to accomplish a lot so far. I presented our work in Kenya on the Pyramid of Peace http://www.pyramidofpeace.net Here is a link to a video interview I gave http://network.barcamp.lv/video to Chris Schuepp. Also, I think that a politician's "open politics" approach is more important than their "open source" stand. So for example for the Pyramid of Peace we are distributing resources through people who agree to make public their telephone numbers. For a candidate, I would wonder if they would say that public funds for software should go to open source projects whether in education, military, bureaucracy. And whether they would support a constitutional ammendemnet that "Public Domain have primacy over Copyright" (you could only copyright your ammendations of a work, and you would have to keep available any public domain sources, and if you don't then your work would become public domain.) And to forbid corporations from owning or managing creative works (as they are not able to create them - human beings do - and they are not able to apply fair use - which is a gray zone, whereas corporations only think in black and white, which is why they were happy with a judgement of $200,000 for making 24 songs available, whereas no musician or human being would ever ask for such a punishment. These are the kinds of issues that we're debating at our workshop on March 31, 2008 in Vilnius, Lithuania "Ethical Public Domain: Debate of Questionable Practices" which is a workshop of COMMUNIA, the European Union's thematic network for the Public Domain. http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org I hope you might come! **xul-vipz** ¡ 2008-02-15 07:02:25 "except that 1) he’s on Twitter and 2) Hillary is more of a “dynasty” type of candidate" I simply can't understand that those are you arguments for electing an candidate president. Shouldn't your choice be based on the political 'message' a candidate is bringing you? (The US is big, there must me tons of problems to be solved). Are you going to vote your president who is dressed best? I really understand US elections. - xul-vipz, The Netherlands **xul-vipz** ¡ 2008-02-15 08:20:14 Ofcourse "I really understand US elections." should be: I really \*don't\* understand US elections. **[Eric](http://theredpost.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-15 14:42:04 We have a choice between moving forward towards more open government, or sticking with the way things have been for a long time. The change (thanks to a bill co-sponsored by Obama) is already starting to happen...the U.S. government now has an API. Who would've thought that would ever happen?? Here's the link: http://www.usaspending.gov/apidoc.php **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-15 14:43:33 @xul-vipz: Well, I guess I'm beyond believing what politicians say and am typically more interested in how they make decisions and who they work with. Consider that George W Bush proclaimed that nation-building is not the intended role of the US Govt during his campaigning... I wouldn't exactly say that he kept that promise, so why would I believe other politicians now? In any case, I like that Obama has the potential to bring a new outlook and a new kind of leadership to the fray whereas Hillary, to me at least, represents staying with the past, (in spite of the fact that some of her policy ideas are actually attractive). ### After Social Graph FOO Camp — and a challenge for the Data Portability Group URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/after-social-graph-foo-camp-and-a-challenge-for-the-data-portability-group/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:44.000Z This past weekend I attended a topic-specific FOO Camp called [Social Graph FOO Camp](http://sgfoocamp08.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (otherwise known as [SGFOO](http://hashtags.org/tag/sgfoo?ref=chrismessina.me)) organized by [Scott Kveton](http://kveton.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [David Recordon](http://www.davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (or *ray-*chor*\-dohn* according to [Larry](http://larryhalff.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Scott's [write up](http://kveton.com/blog/2008/02/04/sg-foocamp-08-wrap-up/?ref=chrismessina.me) is pretty complete, but I wanted to call out one specific outcome that I think is worth noting. On [Sunday](http://adactio.com/extras/schedules/sgfoocamp08/?ref=chrismessina.me), we had a significant discussion on data portability and about the activities, responsibilities and opportunities of and for the [eponymous group](http://groups.google.com/group/dataportability-public/?ref=chrismessina.me) which has recently generated much [hype](http://www.techmeme.com/080123/p57?ref=chrismessina.me#a080123p57) and [buzz](http://groups.google.com/group/dataportability-public/web/buzz?ref=chrismessina.me) but little, (as far as I've see) clarity and/or cogent strategy for advancing its expansive charter: > The purpose of this project is to put all existing data portability technologies and initiatives in context and to promote viable reference implementations (blueprints) to the developer, vendor, and end-user communities. The frustration over the minimal barrier to "becoming a member" of the group (you simply have to sign up for a mailing list) and the [focus on large vendors](http://chrissaad.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/microsoft-to-join-dataportability-wheres-the-beef/?ref=chrismessina.me) without advancing an agenda with teeth and clearly defined metrics for success was palpable. But so was the desire to make some progress, and if not come to complete agreement, to at least identify concerns shared by the majority of us and perhaps develop a strategy to deflate the hype to date and get the group moving in a productive direction. My suggestion was to emulate the work that [Tara](http://horsepigcow.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and I have been doing on the [Open Media Web](http://openmediaweb.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) project, which developed out of our work with [Songbird](http://songbirdnest.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) where we could sense that there was a real opportunity to explore, but didn't yet have a clear picture of either the space as it was understood by lead users and experts nor of the outcomes that needed to be advocated. So rather than diving in and promoting technologies or tactics before we had identified the opportunities, challenges and boundaries of the problem domain, we decided to pursue an investigatory strategy, starting with a series of meetups, blog posts and interviews ([vlogged on Viddler](http://www.viddler.com/groups/openmediaweb/?ref=chrismessina.me)) that might help us flesh out the actors, ideas and conversations that were already ongoing in the space. The result of my proposal is [captured in this post](http://groups.google.com/group/dataportability-public/msg/0323e54336cdccce?ref=chrismessina.me) by [Chris Saad](http://chrissaad.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) to the [Data Portability mailing list](http://groups.google.com/group/dataportability-public/?ref=chrismessina.me). I think this is a positive step, and one that I hope will give Data Portability some direction and good work to do over the next several weeks and months. I'd like to go a step further and flesh out my thinking however, before this project gets underway. 1. These interviews should really be conducted assassin-style (as I like to say) where someone (probably Chris Saad) goes to each major vendor represented (and pimped) by the group (i.e. [Google and Facebook](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/goog-fb-data.php?ref=chrismessina.me), [Plaxo](http://www.particls.com/blog/2008/01/individuals-from-plaxo-google-and.html?ref=chrismessina.me), [Microsoft](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/microsoft%5Fjoining%5Fdataportabil.php?ref=chrismessina.me), [LinkedIn, Flickr, Six Apart](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/linkedin%5Fflickr%5Fand%5Fsixapart%5Fdataportability.php?ref=chrismessina.me), [MyStrands](http://blog.mystrands.com/2008/01/23/why-mystrands-is-joining-the-data-portability-workgroup/?ref=chrismessina.me), et al) and solicits written (or video) answers to the same five or six questions. Each of these interviews should subsequently be posted to the data portability blog over a series of months. 2. The goal of these ongoing interviews should be to discover primarily: 1) why these companies joined the group and what their goals are; 2) what they think of when they say "data portability" 3) what challenges are they facing when it comes to offering their vision of data portability at their company? 4) what are the greatest benefits of data portability? 5) what are they doing (if anything) to promote and advance data portability within their organization? 6) what technologies have they implemented (or plan to implement in the next six months) in support of data portability? From these answers, I think we can start to recognize trends in both the headspace of large social networking sites as well as begin to call out certain technologies that might be worth picking up and evangelizing, especially in the interest of interop between multiple parties' sites. 3. As such, the advocacy of any particular technological solution by the data portability group today should be immediately abandoned until further research and exploration has occurred. While I was happy to see my favorite stable of technologies listed on the group's homepage in the early days, I now realize that technology is not the hard part; it's actually the politics, the policies, the usability and impact on and perception of the individual data owners that are really the first order priorities. Without beginning to address issues in those areas first, the technology conversation will never occur. 4. In terms of timing, I think that the data portability group has come along more or less at the right time, but that it's actually walking into the problem ass-backwards. What we don't need right now is a lot of hype and glorification of an abstruse notion of data portability. In fact, data portability by itself is currently meaningless and intangible; without good examples of how it can be applied to *make things better* for companies' *customers*, there will never be an economic imperative to move in this direction (I should point out that data portability is interesting to me because increased customer choice is interesting to me, and thereby competition in the space is beneficial to the customers of such services). For a timely example of a positive case where data portability is making a difference, consider the ability to [move your bookmarks from del.icio.us to Ma.gnolia](http://rubenerdshow.com/blog/migrating-from-delicious-to-magnolia/?ref=chrismessina.me) in lieu of Microsoft's looming acquisition bid of Yahoo!. Surely there are other equally beneficial applications of data portability, and building out these use cases in terms of *end-user benefit* is critical to continuing to make the case for data portability with credibility. So anyway, I do believe that there is an opportunity here and Chris Saad is correct that getting a number of the prominent players in this arena to come to the table on this topic is a feat; however, simply bringing them together without engaging with the gnarly problems and policies that have kept data portability from becoming a reality could bring more confusion and angst than benefit. Deflating the hype and going back to humble beginnings and simple questions is, in my *not-so-humble* opinion, the appropriate and most effective way forward. Data portability is still not obvious for most people or most companies — heck the technologies that enable it are barely out of their 1.0 and 2.0 phases yet — and still this topic is one that [captures people's imaginations](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/05/03/scrabled-thoughts/?ref=chrismessina.me) and lets them imagine countless "what if" scenarios that seem, somehow, [just around the corner](http://brad.livejournal.com/2357444.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Data portability is a critical topic, and with the advances in the state of the conversation we had over the weekend, I'm eager to see the members of the data portability group pick up the ball and keep moving it forward. So, if this topic is something that interests you, I recommend you blog about it, talk about it, interpret it and really take some time to consider what data portability means to you, and why it matters (or doesn't) to you. Me, Larry and [Matt Biddulph](http://www.hackdiary.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) of Dopplr rapped about this stuff some more on our [Citizen Garden podcast today](http://citizengarden.com/2008/02/05/episode-4-after-foo/?ref=chrismessina.me), so if you're looking for more information, ideas or fodder, you might go ahead and [give it a listen](http://s3.amazonaws.com/citizengarden-podcasts/CitizenGardenEpisode4.m4a?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Tantek Çelik](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-06 01:05:11 Chris, This is both an excellent summary of the informal meetup about data portability on Sunday (all accurate per my memory), and a good listing of the issues and suggested ways to move forward. Thanks for the write-up. Tantek **[Chris Saad](http://www.faradaymedia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-06 03:01:42 Chris, Tantek agreed - I think the discussion at FOO had a very positive outcome and I thank you both for your support. The idea you suggested of video interviews has, as you pointed out, already been actioned. I look forward to more ideas and suggestions! Are you going to be making a video? :) Also, everyone is invited to the DP meetup in SF on Thursday to continue the conversation started at FOO. **[Nollind Whachell](http://nollind.whachell.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-06 08:41:53 I concur. Excellent summary Chris. "...but little, (as far as I’ve see) clarity and/or cogent strategy for advancing its expansive charter." Dead on. The group, or at least what I saw of it internally, seems like a hydra with it's multiple heads in conflict with one another, since anyone can join and everyone has their own opinion of what data portability is. To be honest though, with so many people already within the group now, I'm not sure if you're going to get a consensus on anything now. It would probably be better if you got together with people like Tantek and formed your own internal group to collaborate with. Sure people might be upset in not being a part of the group but you'd be much more effective. It's one reason why I'm not sticking my noise into the DISO group. While I'm definitely interested in your advancements and I have input of my own, I'd rather stay out of it for now, thus hopefully keeping your small group more streamlined and focused. I mean if I do want to contribute something, I can always email you and let you decide if it's worthwhile to integrate or not. Therefore, just like any community has varying roles within it, so to should the data portability group have varying roles within it as well. New people should just have the ability to read initially and maybe vote on issues. Over time they should be given commenting ability within certain discussions. Once they prove their comments actually contribute to the group, they can then be given elevated status to start discussions, thus helping to define the direction of the group as a whole. The access rights described in iA's Newspaper Wiki Schematics is a good example of this. http://informationarchitects.jp/newspaper-wiki-schematics/ **[This Week’s Bookmarks at Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2008-02-10/this-weeks-bookmarks-5/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-10 00:02:53 \[...\] After Social Graph FOO Camp — and a challenge for the Data Portability Group | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Chris Saad](http://www.faradaymedia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-15 23:22:53 Heya Chris - some videos have started coming in.... You can find them here... http://www.particls.com/blog/2008/02/video-dataportability-meetup-in-san.html http://www.particls.com/blog/2008/02/video-some-dataportability-and-me.html http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/02/dataportabilityorg-video And of course my videos too http://www.particls.com/blog/2008/02/video-dataportabilityandme-chris-saad.html You're Open Media Web videos are awesome - Are you going to make one about DataPortability - it was your suggestion after all :) **[Money For Nothing » Blog Archive » Where Do You Think You’re Going?](http://news.floe.tv/?p=3&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-20 12:36:53 \[...\] Data Portability Workgroup is a topic all its own, really. Some say its got no direction, no purpose, and is simply spinning its wheels. Others trump up its importance \[...\] ### The Existential DiSo Interview URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-existential-diso-interview/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:43.000Z [The Existential DiSo Interview](http://www.vimeo.com/629450/l:embed%5F629450?ref=chrismessina.me) from [Chris Messina](http://www.vimeo.com/factoryjoe/l:embed%5F629450?ref=chrismessina.me) on [Vimeo](http://vimeo.com/l:embed%5F629450?ref=chrismessina.me). Here's what I asked myself: how are you? we're going to talk about diso today? is that right? what is diso? you say it's a social network, so how would it work with wordpress? how is this different from myspace or facebook? so who's involved in this project? so what comes next? how is this different than opensocial? what's going to be the big win for diso? so do you see this model applying in any other domain on the web? what kind of support do you need? are you talking to any of the bigger social networks? like facebook or myspace? so who cares? how will you draw customers away from myspace or facebook? any last thoughts? --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Anne Truitt Zelenka » links for 2008-01-23](http://www.annezelenka.com/2008/01/links-for-2008-01-23?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-23 07:25:00 \[...\] The Existential DiSo Interview | FactoryCity (tags: diso towatch video) This entry was written by Anne Z and posted on January 23, 2008 at 9:24 am and filed under Delicious Links. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post. Post a comment or leave a trackback: Trackback URL. ÂŤ links for 2008-01-21 \[...\] **[Stephane Daury](http://tekartist.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-23 07:36:07 LOL, you c-c-crazay! But darn effective. :) Nothing's like taking matters in your own hands. Will watch tonight. **[Amaury](http://www.uswim.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-23 09:26:51 Hello Chris, great job and great idea, both the interview mode and DiSo. I went through most of it and it sounds you made a lot of progress already !! Will be in SF next week and try to touch base with you. Cheers, Amaury **Tony** ¡ 2008-01-23 13:27:01 Nice interview and gives a great overview of the scope and potential of DiSo. I saw Matt from Wordpress saying that he wants to use part of the 29m they've raised to delve into identity. Do you think they are going to try and integrate something like DiSo across wordpress? **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-23 20:13:12 #1 point from this -- MOAR CODEZ! Design patterns are wonderful, but codez are demoable. On a more ridiculous note: my name is mentioned in a video \*gold star\*! **[Mathieu Favez Weblog](http://www.mfavez.com/2008/01/24/diso-distributed-social-network/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-24 08:27:29 \[...\] Via FactoryCity \[...\] **[tekArtist » The Existential DiSo Interview](http://tekartist.org/blog/2008/01/24/the-existential-diso-interview/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-24 08:35:44 \[...\] What do you do when you have an excellent idea that might be difficult for many to grok, are creative and driven? Well, if you’re anything like Chris Messina, you come up with a self interview detailing your concept. \[...\] **[Nollind Whachell](http://nollind.whachell.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-28 14:56:32 Great video Chris! I think your message came across pretty clear. :) I'll be watching your progress closely on the DiSo site, as I've been wanting to see something like this for a long time as well. And you're dead on with regards to the "Who cares?" question. People may not care now because they don't know what's possible. Once they know what's possible, many won't look back at the old silo approach. Great job at getting the snowball rolling! **[Mark Lise](http://www.digitalspace.ca/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-29 23:21:17 You are asking yourself the right questions :) I think the concept of a "web citizen" by implementing something like openID will encourage more innovation in the social space than what the traditional silos are doing. I've openID enabled my site as a direct result of viewing this video - I'll be tracking this closely as well. Thanks for the interview of yourself! **[Mark’s World » Blog Archive » OpenID](http://www.digitalspace.ca/2008/01/29/openid?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-29 23:28:17 \[...\] those of you who don’t know what openID is all about, check out Chris Messina’s post on the subject. The ultra short-form of it is openID is a way of creating a global identity \[...\] **[Nathan Howell](http://nathanhowell.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-30 23:56:39 Great stuff. I've been thinking along such similar lines over the last few months... time to dig into that mailing list. **[Arun Vijayan](http://webforth.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-03 04:39:59 How did this happen? We could hear somebody else's voice also when the 'real' Chris is talking :) **[cares](http://vinoigrad.narod.ru/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-07 21:17:32 **cares...**Man i love reading your blog, interesting posts !?... **[Community Guy - Jake McKee » Rapid Fire - Thursday, February 07](http://www.communityguy.com/1350/rapid-fire-thursday-february-07/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-08 00:02:32 \[...\] The Existential DiSo Interview | FactoryCity Funny concept - Chris interviews himself in order to spread the word about DiSo. \[...\] **[Ryan Price vs. the Media » DiSo Project :: About The DiSo Project](http://ryanpricemedia.com/2008/02/23/diso-project-about-the-diso-project/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-23 10:36:53 \[...\] watching Chris Messina’s existential DiSo Interview, I decided to go check out a bit more about the distributed social networking stuff Chris and Steve \[...\] **[Note to Facebook, Myspace and Other Social Silos: DIE](http://www.justinball.com/2008/03/04/note-to-facebook-myspace-and-other-social-silos-die/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-04 15:25:37 \[...\] That is changing. Today Ma.tt posted that Andy Peatling the guy who created Buddy Press is joining Automattic to work full on Buddy Press. A few days ago Rashmi Sinha wrote an ‘Open letter to Matt & Toni: Three ways for Wordpress to become more of a social network’. The DiSo project is targeting Wordpress first in an effort to create an open social network. An interview with Chris Messina about the project can be found here. \[...\] **[I want my blog to be the aggregator - mathewingram.com/work](http://www.mathewingram.com/work/2008/03/30/i-want-my-blog-to-be-the-aggregator/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-30 05:57:14 \[...\] the Data Portability efforts that are going on, and Chris “Factory Joe” Messina’s DiSo project, can help make that kind of personal, customizable, widgetized portal a \[...\] **[Profitable Signals: » Blog Archive » Are We Forgetting about DiSO?](http://profitablesignals.com/blog/?p=154&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-30 13:25:03 \[...\] from the conversation on TechMeme. If you aren’t familar with DiSO, check out this great video interview by Chris on \[...\] **[Scrivna](http://scrivna.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-02 10:10:20 I care about "shit like that" great idea... am joining the mailing list now **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » Taking advantage of open for proprietary purposes](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/11/taking-advantage-of-open-for-proprietary-purposes?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-01 08:07:02 \[...\] like Vidoop - which is sponsoring Chris Messina and the DiSO project. Or Jan Rain or ooTao or Meebo or everything that Kaliya Hamlin \[...\] ### Transitions URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/transitions/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:42.000Z It's always felt a little weird for me to get personal on this blog. In the rare occasions when I do, I suppose it's never quite as big a deal as I make it up to be in my head, and on top of that, you'd think that with the kind of public life I maintain with the work I do and my advocacy against old school conceptions of privacy, I'd be beyond separating my work life from my personal life. And so it's been for the past two and a half years that Tara and I have lead an intertwined existence, blending our personal affairs and our professional lives into one big jumble of sweat and energy and purpose and dedication to embracing the chaos and establishing a better, and more open, way to make business. [Citizen Agency](http://www.citizenagency.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), our company, is a labor of love. [Citizen Space](http://citizenspace.us/?ref=chrismessina.me), our coworking office, where we host many an independent entrepreneur, is a result of constant collaboration and communication. The things we've started and accomplished in the past two years still floors me. Yet while we've found great success in our professional endeavors, we've often struggled to find a balance between love life and work life. And even after working at it for some time, we finally decided today to end our romantic relationship. Deep breath. So, why are [we making a public statement](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2008/01/14/transitions/?ref=chrismessina.me) about this? Well, for one thing, we've been the benefactors of countless friends, hosts, partners, family members, mentors and serendipitous encounters over the past two and a half years... telling everyone individually, or at the same time would have been impossible, so to avoid any confusion, we wanted to put out an official word from the source. Second, Tara and I expect and plan to continue running Citizen Agency and operating Citizen Space. We will continue to serve our clients and continue to be involved in the projects that we're already engaged in. Just because we're transitioning our personal relationship doesn't mean that our professional passions change. And we wholly expect to (and will) remain friends. As incredible as this might sound, we both see this transition as being for the better, and continue to see great things ahead for us, and for the work we've already begun. We're going to have to work through this change, and there's no limit of uncertainty here for us, but we're resolved to seeing this through. Tara's been the best partner I could have asked for and I respect her immensely; even if our romantic relationship is at an end, there are many more opportunities just beyond the horizon calling us forward. And I probably can speak on both our behalves when I say thank you, from both of us, for all your continued support and encouragement. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[George](http://www.allaboutgeorge.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 17:27:01 Cheers to you and to Tara. **[Silona](http://leagueoftechnicalvoters.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 17:27:16 so sorry to hear of this. please both take some time to heal. I had something very similar with an ex from 14yrs ago hence many of the statements I made over the new years :-) now he and I are good friends and if things work out right over the next couple of months. We will be business partners. And I am good friends with his wife as well. After meeting her I understood better what he had always needed and was so very happy for him. i hope the best for you both and will be thinking of y'all **[Susan Mernit](http://susanmernit.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 17:27:30 Chris-- What a graceful post. You're truly manifesting as a man of honor and wisdom, in your public/personal life--good luck with all this and best wishes for future joy, friendship, discovery, peace. Susan **[Sanford](http://www.whoissanford.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 17:28:09 Chris - with a true friend, transitions come and go. It is what it is - and you both are people we care about truly. Best on your continued endeavors and making great music with all the parters you are with - now and the future. **[Linda Sherman](http://couragegroup.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 17:28:25 Hi Joe, Just saw your "tweet" regarding this very special post. Thank you for sharing this with us. You certainly have my continued support. Twitter ID: lindasherman **[Ariel Waldman](http://shakewellbeforeuse.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 17:39:22 Chris, I said the same to Tara, but again, it's very admirable that you're both able to address this in a public forum. It's been great getting to know you over the past few months, and I can only hope to continue to learn new things from you in 2008\. There's an open invite to sushi to you as well ;) \*hug\* **Gabe Wachob** ¡ 2008-01-14 17:41:11 Chris- As I tweeted, I'm really glad to see you guys are doing this well - its an inspiration to me going through a divorce - where you guys share a business together, my soon-to-be-ex-wife and I share kids. But committing to move forward together with your shared commitments (Citizen Agency) even though your personal relationship is changing is quite a challenge and I wish you the best of luck. Also, personally, I can't imagine blogging about this sort of "transition", even though I often \*do\* want to blog about my own divorce... This sort of sharing can be cathartic, and also shows the world that these transitions, while not desired, can be made workable - and often the folks involved end up more happy afterwards.. As I said before, good luck and thanks for sharing. **[Steve Ganz](http://steve.ganz.name/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 17:46:47 It takes a lot of courage to make this kind of transition out in the open but somehow I can't imagine you doing it any other way. :) My ex-wife and I approached our split much in the same fashion over 13 years ago and I am proud to say that we remain the very best of friends to this day. Best of luck to you both. **[Ian Muir](http://ian.sundermedia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 17:49:27 Hey Chris, thanks for letting us know. Even when things end well, it can still be tough. I'm glad to hear that you and Tara are both moving forward as friends not with regret. I tried to write something more eloquent and supportive, but I'm horrible at it. Just know that you and Tara both have a lot of friends who are here if you need them. Ian **[Liz](http://liz-henry.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 17:50:26 My thoughts are with you, I know it's difficult. Staying close and working together can work out, it just takes being willing to do it. **Greg Stein** ¡ 2008-01-14 17:54:00 Ugh... things like this are always hard. Some good, some bad. But the hope is always that long-term the change is for the best. As I commented over on Tara's post, the best thing is just to surround yourself with friends. It has certainly helped in my transition from married life. I don't think you'll ever have a lack of good friends :-P ... but don't hesitate to call on us when you need to! **[Stephanie Sullivan](http://www.w3conversions.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 18:08:39 Though I've not been as public about it (since my husband and I didn't live the public life you guys have), I've recently gone through similar with the break up of a 20 year marriage. It can be done gracefully and good for you two for trying. In fact, right now, he's moved back in with me for a month or two while he's in a transition. We honestly are doing very well in the same space. We're good friends. Be deliberate and be forgiving. Don't forget the things you admire about the other person. Sometimes things just aren't meant to be at the level they once were. Good luck to you both! Stef. **[Tantek Çelik](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 18:15:10 Chris, you and Tara both continue to inspire by your bravery, strength, and trust in openness. In getting to know you both over the years, I can't help but be saddened by the news, but know from both your words that you are figuring out what is best for both of you, and that shows true caring. And yes, it's perfectly ok for you to get personal on your blog. **[vanderwal](http://vanderwal.net/random/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 18:24:13 There is much pain and promise of hope that still remains in this post. As you have been their supporting, sharing, and caring for the community so we offer this back to you. There are many things that we do hold as private and expect to be private, but when public and private intermingle our expectations and reality change. Peace, love and prosperity in the things that matter! **[Ed Schipul](http://www.brandtobedetermined.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 18:31:27 Chris - as Susan posted above - "What a graceful post." that is just a great description of your post as well as both of y'all as people. **[Lane Hartwell](http://www.fetching.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 18:38:05 The best to both you and Tara. **[AK](http://www.doctype.cx/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 18:58:18 I don't you kids at all other than through your great flickr stream, blog and twitter - through each of which you both do give so much. Best of luck. **[Nate Westheimer](http://innonate.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 20:17:49 A big ol' hug to you both. **[Dawn Foster](http://fastwonderblog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 20:21:11 Ending any relationship is so difficult. My thoughts are with you both. **[Roebot](http://oblogn.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 21:59:26 Oh yeaaah, you will be mine, all mine Chris... ;-) Seriously, best wishes to you both...you guys are both cool as hell. **[http://terrellrussell.com/](http://terrellrussell.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 22:33:44 A truly inspiring way to move forward - for the both of you. Best of luck. **[Aubrey](http://www.aubreysabala.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 22:48:06 I just posted a similar sentiment to Tara, but I truly respect how courageous and honest your posts are for this - your candor is inspirational. Am thinking about both of you...many, many best wishes. **[Blaspheme Bourne](http://www.blasphemebourne.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-15 00:05:27 Dang. My first visit here and it's on a bitter sweet note. I'm glad to see a positive outlook. I'll read on :) **Thor** ¡ 2008-01-15 00:14:27 Amy and I are filled with melancholy over this! We adore you both as individuals and we adored you as a couple. It won't be easy but we'll make this work...and have a good time doing it. We're there for you. **Jon Moss** ¡ 2008-01-15 00:16:27 A very thoughtful and respectful post - I don't know you personally, but for what it's worth, very best wishes for a successful future, both in business and in love. **Brian Ball** ¡ 2008-01-15 00:37:08 Chris, I heard it from you first and thought it neat how you shared. Two such professional advocates are making a great impact past and present. Thank you. It may just be time for a new avatar. :-) See you at Macworld! **[Christian Crumlish](http://xianlandia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-15 10:24:40 the end of a romantic relationship is in some sense the death of an idea or an ideal, and that's what makes me sad - but I also trust that you guys are doing what you know is best for each of you and that makes me, if not happy, hopeful. take good care of yourselves in this transition, since there are bound to be sore passages. **[Louis Montagne](http://xpo.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-15 14:47:43 Hey Chris, this is sad news, but c'est la vie. A très bientĂ´t sur San Francisco ou Paris. keep up the good open work. **[Hillary Hartley](http://quepol.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-15 16:27:27 I read this last night as I was catching up on feeds, and felt an immediate sense of loss. I haven't known the two of you long, but to me it has been "the two of you." I wasn't sure if I'd leave a comment, but since you both live your life in the open I decided I would, too. I respect you both immensely, and respect your desire to continue on in life as partners and collaborators. I know it can't be easy, but also know you both have the strength to make the transition gracefully. **Marshall Kirkpatrick** ¡ 2008-01-16 07:52:20 Sending you both my warmest wishes. Please take care of yourselves. **[kveton](http://kveton.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-16 08:39:58 Saddened, heartened, encouraged, inspired and amazed all at the same time guys. Wishing you both the best. **lai-san** ¡ 2008-01-16 21:49:13 Wow. My best to both of you. Best of luck with your continued work collaboration. Sounds like you have a good thing going there. **[Jean-Christophe](http://capelli.typepad.fr/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-17 06:57:12 My thoughts are with you both. Longue vie Ă  Citizen Agency ! Vive Citizen Space ! A bientĂ´t Ă  Paris ou Ă  SF **[Alex Barnett](http://alexbarnett.net/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-18 05:46:25 Chris - good luck to you both. **James Kent** ¡ 2008-01-21 09:25:19 Chris the immense work that you and Tara have done to make the internet a more open environment - microformats, flock, songbird, xfn, WP-plugins, OAuth, Dataportability etc. is truly exceptional and like many people here I thank you both and wish you both well in the future. But I am saddened and can only hope that the sacrifice of your personal time proves to be ultimately worthwhile. Last year I got caught up in the web with twitter, blogging, RSS reader, email, techmeme, etc and soon found myself spending more time with my Mac than my wife and family. I have walked away from the 24/7 web lifestyle and found I have missed nothing. At the sametime I have lost weight, got fitter, met real world friends and reconnected to my family. I wish you both all the best for 2008. **[Austin Hill](http://www.billionswithzeroknowledge.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-21 21:38:40 Chris, Best thoughts are going out to you both. Although tough I think you guys are absolutely stand up people who I'm sure will move forward with the same honesty & transparency that got you here. It's been great getting to know you both and Citizen Agency still has two great partners at the helm. Best wishes in this time of change. **DB** ¡ 2008-01-22 18:08:49 Godspeed. There's a great space across the street from where I live, between McCoppin and Duboce, on Valencia. It would make a perfect citizenspace-type shared office, with beautiful light through huge windows. It used to be the top story to Cotrell's used furniture. Now it sits over a car rental space, near a couple of citycarshare type lots, and centrally located to just about everything. Next to Bahai Center. Good luck to you two. **Federica** ¡ 2008-01-24 15:09:03 well..i read your post, i appreciate your sincerity a lot, but in my opinion it s hard to rest friends with our ex partner if there was a true love...anyway good luck! **[Carla Hufstedler](http://cphufstedler.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-27 23:36:20 The maturity and clarity with which you've approached and handled this situation amazes me, even if I simply observe from afar. You should be both be quite proud of yourselves. Please do remember to leave room to heal. **Shravan** ¡ 2008-02-03 17:20:21 Superb graceful beautiful post!! P.s: New blogger… would love to hear from all you people in my blog!! Pls visit and post comments on how i improve it! Shravan(www.deliciousfingers.blogspot.com) **[Alex Lavidge](http://www.alexlavidge.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-12 23:51:44 It says so much that two people can be so close and then still be friends because they want the best for each other and because their ideals that are larger than themselves. I admire your openness and perspective. I'm right there with you -- I broke up recently but we're still friends and care for the other deeply. I guess every step of the way is a learning process as we all grow and learn together. Best always. **[Open Relationships and the Long Tail of Pain | Gauravonomics Blog](http://www.gauravonomics.com/blog/open-relationships-and-the-long-tail-of-pain/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-31 23:08:59 \[...\] public romantic relationship for more than two years, until they had an equally public break-up (Chris and \[...\] ### The OpenID mobile experience URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-openid-mobile-experience/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:41.000Z Two days ago, [Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [launched](http://ma.gnolia.com/blog/2008/01/11/flowers-on-the-go?ref=chrismessina.me) their [mobile version](http://m.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), and it's pretty awesome (disclosure: Ma.gnolia is a former client and current friend/partner of [Citizen Agency](http://citizenagency.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)). In the course of development, [Larry](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/lhalff?ref=chrismessina.me) asked me what he thought he should do about adding OpenID sign-in to the mobile version. He was reluctant to do so because, he reasoned, the experience of logging in sucks, not just because of the OpenID round-trip dance, but because most identity providers don't actually support a mobile-friendly interface. Indeed, if you take a look at the flow from the Ma.gnolia mobile UI to my OpenID provider (using the [iPhone simulator app](http://www.marketcircle.com/iphoney/?ref=chrismessina.me)), you can see that it does suck. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2190323758/?ref=chrismessina.me)[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2190327234/?ref=chrismessina.me) I strongly encourage Larry to go ahead and add OpenID even if the flow isn't ideal. As it is, you can sign up to Ma.gnolia with only an OpenID (without a need for creating yet another username and password) and so without offering this login option, the mobile site would be off-limits to folks in this situation. So there's clearly an opportunity here, and I'm hoping that out of [OpenIDDevCamp](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/394651/?ref=chrismessina.me) today, we can start to develop some best practices and interface guidelines for OpenID providers for the mobile flow (not to mention more [generally](http://wiki.openid.net/User%5FExperience?ref=chrismessina.me)). If you've seen a good example of an OpenID (or roundtrip authentication flow) for mobile, leave a comment here and let me know. It's hard to get screenshots of this stuff, so any pointers would be appreciated! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Ian McKellar](http://ian.mckellar.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-13 15:05:33 \-----BEGIN CRACK ROCK IDEA----- So, this might be a terrible idea. Or it might not. I could set up an identity provider that proxies to one or more other identity providers which will actually validate your credentials and talk to the consumer. My proxy provider would redirect to an appropriate provider based on some criteria. I think this is possible... If the criteria I use is User Agent then I would be able to use a different identity provider for my mobile use than from my desktop use. This is useful because not only do I probably want a different UI, I probably want a different security model. In the mobile case I might want to authenticate based on an SMS, my mobile browser might be able to use a client-side SSL certificate, a custom application running on my phone or some other mechanism to verify my identity that doesn't require me trying to type my password. I might also want to keep myself logged in indefinitely on my mobile but not on my desktop. -----END CRACK ROCK IDEA----- **[Justin Williams](http://log.carpeaqua.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-13 15:08:46 But isn't part of the reason it sucks is that you're passing the credentials off to a third-party site that has a different user experience than the one you came from? It'd be nice if MyOpenID and other providers offered iPhone/Mobile-friendly versions of their site, but I still think the underlying user experience problem with OpenID has to do with dealing with the middle man. **[David Recordon](http://www.davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-13 15:13:24 I agree with Justin, OpenID providers need to start building out iPhone/Mobile-friendly experiences for login and completing OpenID requests. I'm guessing one provider will go do this and then the rest will rush to catch up. **[Christian Decker](http://snyke.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-13 17:46:47 I think implementing OpenID into mobile sites is definitely a good idea because it keeps things simple (no I'm not bothered about the whole roundtrip business), it's still the best way to make single sign on work on a variety of sites. **[Lachlan Hardy](http://lachstock.com.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-13 18:08:49 Absolutely. OpenID providers should be providing mobile-friendly URLs for services like M.gnolia to point to. Meanwhile, I logged in via my ClaimID account and it was easy. Although, it asked for my nickname and email address again, which is a bit weird. (And, a related point, Chris - your OpenID login here was showing me David's OpenID and I had a lot of trouble deleting it to write my own... In FF3b2) **[Software and Opinions » Blog Archive » A simpler mobile OpenID workflow?](http://ianloic.com/2008/01/13/a-simpler-mobile-openid-workflow/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-13 20:56:14 \[...\] Messina posted today about the problems with current OpenID work-flows for mobile users. In spite of a long list of chores I was intending to complete today I had a bit \[...\] **[OpenID » Blog Archive » The First OpenIDDevCamp was a Success](http://openid.net/2008/01/14/the-first-openiddevcamp-was-a-success/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 07:33:28 \[...\] test suite, XRI debugging, and OpenID usability with some focus on mobile (partially inspired by Chris’s blog post). Thanks to Vidoop for sponsoring breakfast, thanks MyStrands for sponsoring lunch and of course \[...\] **[MyStrands Blog » OpenIDDevCamp a success](http://blog.mystrands.com/2008/01/14/openiddevcamp-a-success/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 07:37:52 \[...\] OpenID Mobile Experience \[...\] **[Thejesh GN](http://thejeshgn.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 21:28:19 on my mobile i initially log into my provider and save it. then i log into the app. it makes it much easier as i dont have to go to provider to login everytime. **Jim** ¡ 2008-01-18 10:14:53 What is going on ? There are plenty of "open" "decentralized" "single sign on/authentication/trust" frameworks already ... Wouldn't it be better to choose ONE and support it ? There is a case for a generic "open identification" system ... **[http://www.flickr.com/photos/xian](http://www.flickr.com/photos/xian?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-18 17:02:56 hey, as OpenID goes more mainstream I wonder if it's going to need to become invisible? The Yahoo buttons don't say "Log in via Yahoo with OpenID." **[What’s Wrong With OpenID | lmjabreu.com](http://www.lmjabreu.com/blog/200/whats-wrong-with-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-18 20:42:15 \[...\] profiles, …in case you have multiple personalities), and didn’t emphasize the OpenID Dance: as you may have noticed, you’ll go from service, (redirected)to OP and (redirected)back to \[...\] **[twauth: Twitter als OpenID Provider at notizBlog - a private weblog written by Matthias Pfefferle](http://notizblog.org/2008/01/24/twauth-twitter-als-openid-provider/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-24 00:10:43 \[...\] den von Ian McKellar entwickelten Dienst, war der von Chris Messina verfasste Blog-Post “The OpenID mobile experience” in dem er seine eher negativen Erfahrungen mit bisherigen OpenID Providern auf mobilen \[...\] **[Allen Tom](http://yahoo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-25 17:42:12 Great idea! **[Allen Tom](http://www.flickr.com/photos/dogpics?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-29 09:21:06 Although Safari on iPhone implements all the functionality that one would expect on a mobile browser, it's still a huge PITA to login and/or fill out a registration form using the iPhone's keyboard. OpenID is a natural fit for iPhone friendly sites. It would be great if you could just reuse the same session that you have at your OpenID Provider at all the iPhone RPs that you visit. If you could just click a button to sign-in, even better. **[Guillaume’s blog » Blog Archive » twauth: mobile authentication with OpenID and Twitter](http://lebleu.org/blog/2008/05/13/twauth-mobile-authentication-with-openid-and-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-13 20:01:34 \[...\] The idea behind twauth is to address the usability issues of current mobile OpenID-based authentication workflows. \[...\] **[Most OpenID criticisms are misguided | Community Site News](http://community.plus.net/blog/2008/05/08/most-openid-criticisms-are-misguided/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-11 06:01:05 \[...\] job of supporting mobiles but there’s nothing wrong with OpenID per se. And it will come. Chris Messina is on the case. Or what about using SMS to authenticate? Or why not build OpenID right into the phone browser? \[...\] **[Using MSISDN as OpenId | Thomas Koeppen Blog](http://thomaskoeppen.com/2008/08/23/using-msisdn-as-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-22 14:14:34 \[...\] know, that there were some experiments on mobile OpenId earlier this year, yet: The OpenID mobile experience (published on factoryjoe in January \[...\] **[The OpenID mobile experience, part II | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/05/17/the-openid-mobile-experience-part-ii/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-05 23:02:14 \[...\] January, I wrote about the “OpenID mobile experience” lamenting that it sucked and asking for positive examples of identity providers who got it \[...\] **Allan Rwakatungu** ¡ 2009-02-19 07:34:57 I not advertising anything -- but check this out http://www.valimo.com/news\_and\_events/16-02-2009/valimo-wireless-introduces-mobile-authentication-openid **[Funny Pictures](http://www.funnycorner.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-06-20 09:45:49 Is it safe to use OPEN ID on mobile while surfing. ### It's high time we moved to URL-based identifiers URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/its-high-time-we-moved-to-url-based-identifiers/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:40.000Z Ugh, I had [promised not to read TechMeme anymore](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/20/leaving-techmeme/?ref=chrismessina.me), and I've actually kept to my promise since then... until today. And as soon as I finish this post, I'm back on the wagon, but for now, it's useful to point to the [ongoing Scoble debacle](http://www.techmeme.com/080103/p154?ref=chrismessina.me#a080103p154) for context and for backstory. In a nutshell, [Robert Scoble](http://scobleizer.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) has friends on Facebook. These friends all have contact information and for whatever reason, he wants to dump that data into Outlook, his address book of choice. The problem is that Facebook makes it nearly impossible to do this in an automated fashion because, as a technical barrier, email addresses are provided as opaque images, not as easily-parseable text. So Scoble worked with the heretofore "trustworthy" Plaxo crew (way to [blow it guys](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/01/03/plaxo-flubs-it/?ref=chrismessina.me)! [Joseph](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), how could you?!) to [write a scraper that would OCR the email addresses out of the images](http://scobleizer.com/2008/01/03/what-i-was-using-to-hit-facebook/?ref=chrismessina.me) and dump them into his address book. Well, this [got him banned from the service](http://scobleizer.com/2008/01/03/ive-been-kicked-off-of-facebook/?ref=chrismessina.me). The controversy seems to over whether Scoble had the right to extract his friends' email addresses from Facebook. Compounding the matter is the fact that these email addresses *were not* ones that Robert had contributed himself to Facebook, but that *his contacts had provided*. [Allen Stern](http://www.centernetworks.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) summed up the issue pretty well: [My Social Network Data Is Not Yours To Steal or Borrow](http://www.centernetworks.com/whose-data-is-it-on-a-social-network?ref=chrismessina.me). And as [Dare](http://www.25hoursaday.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) pointed out, [Scoble was wrong, Facebook was right](http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2008/01/03/FacebookRightScobleWrongSocialNetworkInteroperabilityAndTheOReillySocialGraphFOOCamp.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me). Okay, that's all well and fine. You'll note that this is [the same fundamental design flaw](http://blog.plaxo.com/archives/000007.html?ref=chrismessina.me) of [FOAF](http://www.foaf-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), the [RDF format for storing contact information](http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2004/02/handcrafting%5Fmy.html?ref=chrismessina.me) that preceded the purposely *distinct* microformats [XFN](http://gmpg.org/xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [hcard](http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard?ref=chrismessina.me): > The bigger issue impeding Plaxo's public support of FOAF (and presumably the main issue that similar services are also mulling) is privacy: FOAF files make all information public and accessible by all, including the contents of the user's address book (via foaf:knows). Now, the concern today and the concern back in 2004 was the exposure of identifiers (email addresses) that can *also* be used to contact someone! By conflating contact information with unique identifiers, service providers got themselves in the untenable situation of [not being able to share the list of identifiers externally or publicly](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/19/public-nuisance-1-importing-your-contacts/?ref=chrismessina.me) without also revealing a mechanism that could be easily abused or spammed. I won't go into the benefits of using email for identifiers, because they do exist, but I do want to put forth a proposal that's both long time in coming and long overdue, and frankly [Kevin Marks](http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/01/urls-are-people-too.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Scott Kveton](http://kveton.com/blog/2008/01/03/urls-are-people-too-and-service-end-points/?ref=chrismessina.me) have said it just as well as I could: *URLs are people too*. Kevin writes: > The underlying thing that is wrong with an email address is that its affordance is backwards — it enables people who have it to send things to you, but there's no reliable way to know that a message is from you. Conversely, URLs have the opposite default affordance — people can go look at them and see what you have said about yourself, and computers can go and visit them and discover other ways to interact with what you have published, or ask you permission for more. This is clearly the design advantage of [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). And it's also clearly the direction that we need to go in for developing out [distributed social networking applications](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). It's also why [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) is important to the mix, so that when you arrive at a public URL identifier-slash-OpenID, you can [ask for access to certain things](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2007/12/its-about-oauth.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (like sending the person a message), and the owner of that identifier can decide whether to grant you that *privilege* or not. It no longer matters if the Scobles of the world leak my URL-based identifiers: they're useless without the specific permissions that I grant on a per instance basis. As well, I can give services permission to share the URL-based identifiers of my friends (on a per-instance basis) without the threat of betraying their confidence since their [public URLs don't reveal their sensitive contact information](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/08/02/deeelightful-making-profile-import-a-snap/?ref=chrismessina.me) (unless they choose to publish it themselves or provide access to it). This allows me the dual benefit of being able to [show up at any random web service and *find my friends*](http://bradfitz.com/social-graph-problem/?ref=chrismessina.me#goals-enduser) while [not sharing information](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/08/03/deelightful-bringing-your-social-network-with-you/?ref=chrismessina.me) they haven't given me permission to pass on to untrusted third parties. So [screen scrape](http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/magazine/16-01/ff%5Fscraping?ref=chrismessina.me) [factoryjoe.com](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) all you want. I even have a [starter hcard](http://factoryjoe.com/hcard.html?ref=chrismessina.me) waiting for you, with all the contact information I care to publicly expose. Anything more than that? Well, you're going to have to ask more politely to get it. You've got my URL, now, tell me, what else do you *really* need? --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Warum Scoble von Facebook gegangen wurde at franztoo](http://www.franztoo.de/?p=614&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 23:44:08 \[...\] Chris Messina und Allen Stern vonCenternetworks zum \[...\] **zerinfluencer** ¡ 2008-01-04 00:09:28 Top post. But, URLs and emails are leased - you never own them. Like the data issue, it's not possessed, but representational, and thus, data belongs to the system, never the users. Date of Birth, phone numbers, age: they are all signifiers, not your 'personal' owed signs. **[It’s high time we moved to URL-based identifiers | on Social Software](http://www.onsocialsoftware.com/2008/01/04/it%e2%80%99s-high-time-we-moved-to-url-based-identifiers/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 01:35:11 \[...\] It’s high time we moved to URL-based identifiers This entry was written by jeremi and posted on January 4, 2008 at 10:35 am and filed under Url. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post. Post a comment or leave a trackback: Trackback URL. \[...\] **[Tim Walker](http://hooversbiz.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 04:29:35 I'm no coder - :( - but this makes perfect sense to me, Chris. I'm sure a lot of folks do a human-mediated version of this already: you're not sure you should give Friend A's e-mail to Acquaintance B, so you tell B to check out A's site or blog. It's helpful to the acquaintance, but it puts the control in your friend's hands. But your suggestion is far better, because it would do this across the board and as a matter of routine protocol. **[http://simonwillison.net/](http://simonwillison.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 05:21:39 I have to admit I don't entirely understand what's so morally objectionable about scraping and OCRing the e-mail addresses using software (aside from violating Facebook's terms of service, but the fact that Facebook themselves scrape Gmail etc makes the ToS more than a little hypocritical). Scoble could have gathered that data himself; he would have had to click through to 5,000 pages and transcribe the address from the image himself, but he had permission to access the data. The argument that "I never gave Scoble permission to export MY e-mail address" doesn't hold for me - when you friended Scoble, you gave him permission to view your e-mail address. If he automates that process how does that change the fact that you gave him that permission? **Kjetil Kjernsmo** ¡ 2008-01-04 05:33:48 I can appreciate the point that people needs to be afforded some control over their data, such as contact data, but i cannot agree that it is a design flaw of FOAF that the social network and contact details are encoded in the same vocabulary. I see vocabularies for data and control of that data as two orthogonal issues, the problem is not that you mix vocabularies, there should be a different mechanism for declaring policy about who is allowed to use those data. There has been a lot of work on that issue, e.g. http://www.policyawareweb.org/ but again, the problem is that the us in the Semantic Web community loves to create prototypes, but is not sufficiently concerned about the applications that people will actually use. So, the problem has a good and implemented solution, it just isn't available on your desktop. :-) **Henry Story** ¡ 2008-01-04 05:47:57 You have it wrong. Foaf can be used to provide security (using openid for example), because it uses URLs as identifiers and the web service can return apporpriate representations depending on the person viewing the page, if they log in with OpenId. See some of what I write in http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/my\_bloomin\_friends **[Christian Scholz](http://mrtopf.de/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 05:52:06 Maybe it's mostly the fact, that people feel that their email addresses are somehow protected in that Facebook Walled Garden. I actually wrote today about some of these questions on my blog. What would have happened if FB itself would have been more open from the beginning with it's own export function? But it's good this discussion is coming up now as it helps to define what is questionable and what isn't. And what controls we might need. As for the FOAF vs. Microformats debate I think I agree the comment on the DiSo group as I think it's simply a different way of formatting it. I could also imagine different FOAF files for different users to access depending on their permission settings (I also don't really get the problems people have with FOAF, to me it seems to me somewhat clearer than Microformats which to me always look like sort of a hack as the repurpose styling information). **[The Scoble mess and data portability - - mathewingram.com/work](http://www.mathewingram.com/work/2008/01/04/the-scoble-mess-and-data-portability/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 06:41:19 \[...\] to move away from using our email addresses as the core of our online identities, and move towards a URL-based system. One thing is for sure: this issue isn’t going to go \[...\] **[Tom Morris](http://tommorris.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 07:19:16 The comments about FOAF in this post are misguided, and users on #swig have responded here - http://tinyurl.com/2f8ra5 RDF doesn't introduce any new privacy/security/trust issues, nor does not-RDF remove any. It's all just representations in resources available over HTTP. I have been tempted to make a FOAF file that would be available behind an auth-wall using OpenID/OAuth etc. **[Scott Kveton · URL’s are people too … and service end-points](http://kveton.com/blog/2008/01/03/urls-are-people-too-and-service-end-points/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 08:20:00 \[...\] I’m not the only one thinking along these \[...\] **[Joseph Smarr](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 08:44:49 Chris-my response to you about using URLs vs. emails for identifiers is basically the same as my response to Brian Oberkirch who said we shouldn't ask users for their raw credentials: I totally agree that's where we want to go, I'm trying to help us get there, but we're not there yet and I believe the best way to get there is to demonstrate value today rather than abstaining until the future arrives. The fact is: today email addresses are by far the dominant identifiers people use to "find their friends" on social sites. That's why Facebook and many other sites let you import your e-mail address book to look up people you know, and that's why people want to get those identifiers back out (in addition to the hopefully obvious point that I want to be able to email my friends using my email application!). So, as we discussed at IIW, we can start to show the benefits of an open social web with friends-list portability today by letting users take their email-based friends-lists and look up their friends on ther sites, and as more people start using OpenID and keeping profile URLs for their friends, we can transition over to a URL-based lookup, which is ultimately a much better solution as you correctly point out. But like I said to Brian, I don't think we'll get there faster by denying users access to data they can already get themselves with higher friction, we'll just delay showing the true value of an open social web. **[Christian Crumlish](http://xianlandia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 08:48:28 I think Simon is technically right, but I also think there's a sort of fuzzy fallacy in saying that things that were technically possible before are therefore OK when automated. Sometimes what appears to be only a quantitative gain (such as with regard to efficiency) is effectively a qualitative gain, changing the fundamental experience for the people involved. **[Aswath](http://blog.enthinnai.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 10:07:59 OpenID can be used to authenticate the sender/caller. This means it is much more effective to maintain a whitelist. (http://www.mocaedu.com/mt/archives/000285.html) **[Preparing for the Mobile Web: Screen Sizes « The Pursuit of a Life](http://xidey.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/preparing-for-the-mobile-web-screen-sizes/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 10:49:26 \[...\] (h/t Kevin Marks via Chris Messina) \[...\] **[Robert Mark White](http://geocities.com/rmarkwhite/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 23:01:48 I have a foaf file and it uses a sha1 hash to obscure the email address of my friends. The hash can still be used at a unique identifier. The social network providers I use know my friends email addresses already they provided it to them when they joined. Foaf takes a little more work to figure out than microformats but the ability to expand your vocabularies beyond the original foaf vocabulary makes foaf/rdf a wonderful outlet for publishing information about yourself and your friends. I use my www home page as my openid but delagate it to my openid provider. I have setup auto discovery of my foaf file on my www home page. That seems to me to be the way to go for getting my information out there in a guarded but still public way. my openid provider allows people to send me emails without knowing my email address. This seems like a perfect world to me. **[Alexander van Elsas](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-05 00:55:09 Hi Chris, nice one again! I think technically you are right, but from a user perspective a url isn't always practical. Not everyone has a url, I've actually asked my boss (Dutch Telecom Operator) to provide every Dutch person born with a free e-mail and url, but so far no luck ;-) The underlying issue is not really about who owns the data, who cares? It's is about letting the user become free again, allowing him to export things anywhere, and at the same time provide the user witht the responsibility to protect his personal data to a level he is comfortable with. I don't mind people scraping data off of Facebook, as long as I get to decide which data I provide is scraped. So, better, transparent privacy controls (defaults to protecting the user), and breaking down the walled gardens (which is a business model issue really). This is my first wish for 2008, I have a few more, read them at my blog if you are interested. **[Tantek](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-05 01:41:14 Chris is right, switching to URL based identifiers is essential to making progress here. A few notes regarding some of the comments. Publishing sha1 hashed email addresses is still a problem for both unexpected identity consolidation, and search based privacy attacks. See the microformats page on [identity consolidation](http://microformats.org/wiki/identity-consolidation?ref=chrismessina.me) for more on this. The linked #swig response misses the point as well, which is that formats dictate and influence policy. It doesn't matter what a format \*can\* be used for, if its very design lends it to abuse (e.g. conflating the publishing of a person's profile information with all their friends' profile information). This is why it is more important to keep formats and protocols, small, modular and relatively orthogonal, rather than trying to cram everything into a yet another side-file, especially one that unnecessarily reinvents vocabulary rather than reusing highly interoperable vocabulary (e.g. vCard). **[Own Your Identity » 2008 - Year of the URL](http://www.ownyouridentity.com/2008/01/05/2008-year-of-the-url/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-05 12:19:20 \[...\] Kveton, Kevin Marks and Chris Messina all begin the year discussing the potential of the URL as identifier. Kevin makes the point that \[...\] **[How can we be social, yet protect our identity? « CTOWatch](http://ctowatch.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/how-can-we-be-social-yet-protect-our-identity/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-05 22:15:16 \[...\] It’s high time we moved to URL-based identifiers | FactoryCity So screen scrape factoryjoe.com all you want. I even have a starter hcard waiting for you, with all the contact information I care to publicly expose. Anything more than that? Well, you’re going to have to ask more politely to get it. You’ve got my URL, now, tell me, what else do you really need? \[...\] **[Ma.gnolia Links from Dec 12 to Dec 19 « ?-gration](http://vxjasonxv.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/magnolia-links-from-dec-12-to-dec-19/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-06 00:00:34 \[...\] It’s high time we moved to URL-based identifiers | FactoryCity \[...\] **[martin.paljak.pri.ee. » People are permalinks too!](http://martin.paljak.pri.ee/2008/01/08/people-are-permalinks-too/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-07 15:06:41 \[...\] started with interesting events and great ideas: People are URLs \[...\] **[Andrius Kulikauskas](http://www.includer.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-08 01:50:31 Chris, thank you for making stark the distinction between the email and url approaches. Also, I swung by to ask if you might help us get a wider online participation in our Minciu Sodas response to Kenya which has quickly set up a fantastic system whereby we're sending money by Western Union to calm places in Kenya where people can assuredly pick up cash (in many places they couldn't for several days) and then purchasing prepaid phone cards, loading up their phones and then sending airtime minutes to people in isolated places (this is a cool think about the Kenya mobile phone system), where they can barter them for food, medicine, transport. Furthermore, we're encouraging such outreach to benevolent people in opposing tribes and focusing on the participants who agree that we publicly post their telephones and help us share news and reach out further. I'll be improving our web system regarding that and any coders who might help would be much appreciated, see http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?KenyansToCall Is telephone like email or like url? Maybe the fact that there's a cost to the call and it's paid by the caller is enough to make it more like a url? But there's an interesting blur here. **[2008, the year of Open Social Networks? — mrtopf.de](http://mrtopf.de/blog/web20/2008-the-year-of-open-social-networks/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-09 02:20:03 \[...\] of OpenID have been started as well as a discussion about what describes our identity, a URL or email address (also \[...\] **[The problems with the open social Web at Like It Matters](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2008/01/09/the-problems-with-the-open-social-web/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-09 08:08:07 \[...\] a mobile number. I see the benefits of URL-based identity (see Kevin Marks, Scott Kveton & Chris Messina discussions of this. See also pushback for keeping email as the focus; actually Eran’s post \[...\] **[Pascal Van Hecke](http://pascal.vanhecke.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-09 16:33:28 On Simon Willisons argument that "if it can be done by hand, so why not with software": apart from Christian Crumlish's point, there's the fact that the people who trusted Scoble with their data \_in the context of\_ Facebook, would not necessarily have done so \_in the context of Plaxo. In fact, they might not trust Plaxo with their data at all (or vice versa, this is not a judgement on Plaxo versus Facebook). This has been brilliantly formulated by Dare Obasanjo in a follow up post: http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2008/01/07/BreakingTheSocialContractMyDataIsNotYourData.aspx **[Pascal Van Hecke](http://pascal.vanhecke.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-09 16:45:10 A question: (your quote): "so that when you arrive at a public URL identifier-slash-OpenID, you can ask for access to certain things (like sending the person a message), and the owner of that identifier can decide whether to grant you that privilege or not" Johannes Ernst's LID has messaging capability - I'm wondering why that never took off? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-09 16:48:48 @Pascal Van Hecke: Dunno... Timing? Marketing? Interface? Lack of developer interest? My guess is that it was just too soon for its own good, as many breakthru technologies often are. **[ambient » Some links from today](http://firewatching.com/ambient/2008/01/10/some-links-from-today/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-10 13:28:28 \[...\] It’s high time we moved to URL based identifiers \[...\] **[Christian Scholz](http://mrtopf.de/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-11 05:01:37 I was thinking a bit more about the issue of URL based identificators but I am really not sure that this is ready for mainstream. Everybody on the net probably has an email address and if you signup on any recent new web service you probably have to give your email address sort of as identification (to which some confirmation link is sent). To change this is IMHO quite a lot of work. Maybe not so much for us geeks but for mainstream internet. My parents do not have URLs or wouldn't actually know which one their identification URL is and explaining that to them will be hard. So I really think that trying to somehow e.g. map emails to URIs or that email DNS proposal over at hueniverse might be things to consider. Of course there is the spam problem and you probably need to have your identifier somewhat public so it makes sense (as I had problems the other day when playing around with some xfn parser/fetcher of mine to actually map my friends profiles together as it wasn't clear which profile belonged to which identity) and I honestly don't have a solution for this. But still I see problems of mass adoptions if we don't go where the people are. Maybe those identifiers should simply look like email addresses but never be able to receive mail but this defeats my point probably ;) **[Scott Kveton · What can/should you do with an OpenID end-point?](http://kveton.com/blog/2008/01/13/what-canshould-you-do-with-an-openid-end-point/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-12 19:00:50 \[...\] a bunch of folks have been talking about this idea of moving to URL’s as identifiers in recent weeks (even me). The idea is \[...\] **[Ma.gnolia Links from Jan 27 to Feb 03 « ?-gration](http://vxjasonxv.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/magnolia-links-from-jan-27-to-feb-03/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-28 10:20:54 \[...\] It’s high time we moved to URL-based identifiers | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Quote by FactoryCity Âť It’s high time we moved to URL-based identifiers | Oliver's Stuff](http://stuff.thylmann.net/2008/04/13/quote-by-factorycity-%c2%bb-it%e2%80%99s-high-time-we-moved-to-url-based-identifiers/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-13 10:43:23 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť It’s high time we moved to URL-based identifiers \[...\] **[Nodalities » Blog Archive » This Week’s Semantic Web](http://blogs.talis.com/nodalities/2008/01/this%5Fweeks%5Fsemantic%5Fweb%5F25.php?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-17 09:09:08 \[...\] It’s high time we moved to URL-based identifiers \[...\] **[http://jamestindall.info/yadis.xrdf](http://jamestindall.info/yadis.xrdf?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-06 08:17:55 Would the consumer site resolving the email into an openid uri sidestep your privacy concerns? The user would not have to promote their email address as their id but they could use it as such. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-06 23:06:39 You can basically use whatever kind of identifier you want to enable someone to access an account attached that verified identifier... whether you display it or not is up to relationship between the site and their member. So you could use credit card numbers, social security number, phone numbers, email addresses, URLs... doesn't really matter... as long as someone (ideally ONE person) can prove that it's them coming back to the site. What you call them or how you publicly refer to them on the site (alias, username, full name, etc) is beyond the scope of OpenID. **[cortney](http://www.westmichiganlawyers.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-06 12:36:36 This makes a lot of sense. There has to be many people that go through the process manually which i agree has to stop. I'll keep thinkin about this. ### The problem with open source design URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-problem-with-open-source-design/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:40.000Z I've probably said it before, and will say it again, and I'm also sure that I'm not the first, or the last to make this point, but I have yet to see an example of an open source design process that has worked. Indeed, I'd go so far as to wager that "open source design" is an oxymoron. Design is far too personal, and too subjective, to be given over to the whims and outrageous fancies of anyone with eyeballs in their head. Call me elitist in this one aspect, but with all due respect to *code artistes*, it's quite clear whether a function computes or not; the same quantifiable measures simply do not exist for design and that critical lack of objective review means that design is a form of Art, and its execution should be treated as such. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2153355194/?ref=chrismessina.me)What's got my panties in a bunch? Well, this screenshot depicts the new WordPress Admin Dashboard coming in the forthcoming release, version 2.4, which you can check out from the [WordPress SVN repository](http://wordpress.org/download/svn/?ref=chrismessina.me). From [Mr Mullenweg's own admission](http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2008/01/02/wordpress-24-admin-preview/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-1207162), it's only about 10-20% complete, but you wouldn't know that from the feedback this [work-in-progress](http://www.tubetorial.com/wordpress-24-administration-panel-preview/?ref=chrismessina.me) is [already generating](http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2008/01/02/wordpress-24-admin-preview/?ref=chrismessina.me#comments). Coming from [CivicSpace](http://civicspacelabs.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), where we had a [beautiful website](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/4544548/?ref=chrismessina.me) before we had working code, to working on [Flock](http://flock.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), where the [mockups](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/102993817/?ref=chrismessina.me) never quite matched [the software that was released](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/137817854/?ref=chrismessina.me), I feel like I've seen enough of these fruitless cycles to take for granted that design and open source development are simply incompatible, or, to be clear: the expectations that one has with open source *software development* cannot be the same expectations that one has for open source *interface/interaction design*. From my experience, what can I say about *constructive* open source UI/UX design? 1. **Set expectations.** As a designer, I'm trained to take feedback and to accept as given that people will shred my work in the interest of improving it. But I also know that there are plenty of folks who do care but simply don't know how to provide useful feedback. It's my job to make it clear what kind of feedback I'm looking for and what feedback I don't need. It's also up to me to communicate that I reserve the right to reject any feedback given. It's up to the feedback-giver to not take it personally. 2. **Set deadlines.** This one follows the previous point, but if you're doing any kind of design review, it's pretty important to put some temporal boundaries on how long the window is open to be given feedback and *how long it will likely take to implement it*. Nothing's worse than unrequited design feedback, even if it's feedback that isn't useful. 3. **Know where you're at.** My more naive self would rebel against what I'm about to propose, but there's no way around it. If you're acting as a designer, it's up to you to "own" the design process and to only ask for feedback when you're clear on the kind of feedback you're looking for. Open source shouldn't be about ultimate compromise or mamby-pamby democratic ideals where everyone has a say. Curiosity kills plenty of cats, but consensus is goddamn plague on most projects so get it in your head that open source is about public demonstrations of repeated meritocratic value creation and not about listening to every Tom, Dick and Harry that has something to spew. And anyone who hasn't proven themselves by previously being raked over the coals of public criticism and critique should be treated accordingly. Remember, opinions are like assholes and vegetarians are still in the minority. 4. **Use productive and appropriate tools.** The most aggravating aspect of participating in the Mozilla community has been their reliance on Bugzilla, one of the worst possible tools for design review and discussion. Can you believe that they still do [design in ASCII art](http://wiki.mozilla.org/FX2%5FVisual%5FUpdate/User%5FInterface%5FDesign?ref=chrismessina.me)? Me neither. Look, when you're doing interactive design, you should try to get as close as possible to the target environment as possible when working and designing. Can you remember the last time you used an application whose interface was made of pipes, ellipses and clever uses of brackets? Neither can I. Therefore interfaces should be presented using tools that support constructive dialogue and feedback. [Flickr](http://flickr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is actually a great tool for this purpose, with its [Notes feature](http://fotonotes.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). [ConceptShare](http://conceptshare.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is another one, developed specifically with this use case in mind. More and more [Skitch](http://skitch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Jing](http://www.jingproject.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) are other tools that serve this purpose, as are screen capture applications like [iShowU](http://www.shinywhitebox.com/home/home.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and even Leopard's [built-in Screen Sharing application](http://lifehacker.com/software/remote-control/add-more-functionality-to-leopards-screen-sharing-334759.php?ref=chrismessina.me). 5. **Be clear about the problem you're solving.** Nothing spells disaster for a design process more than fishtailing. If you don't know what problems you're trying to solve and you don't have razor-sharp focus on it, chances are you'll be open to whatever feedback you can get your hands on, grasping for some notion of what the hell you should be working on. This is not design, this is horseshoes and hand grenades. Look, it's okay to not have everything figured out when you embark on a project, and it's even okay to admit that and to embrace it. It's wholly another thing to *pretend* to know what you're doing and then go about asking for feedback. By its design and nature feedback is intended to raise deltas between the *perceived* reality and the *potential* reality. For feedback to be useful and productive, you, as the designer, have to stayed trained on the ultimate endpoint that you're driving towards and systematically exhaust all possible combinations presented by the feedback that will lead you to non-ideal solutions. This is how you use feedback to whittle away at an opportunity until you finally arrive at a satisfying outcome. To put it another way, existential deviation on a theme is certainly okay and to be encouraged; experimentation is where a lot creative ideas will come from. But in the context open source feedback flows, this is absolutely NOT where you want to fluctuate. Trust me, this is where design hijack takes over, and where you'll lose your control and leverage over the direction of a project. If you hold the reigns tight, an open feedback process can be extremely rewarding; let slip and you're likely to be overwhelmed in a sea of confusing and confounding false opportunities. 6. **Be focused.** This tip is twofold and builds on the last. You should be focused on the feedback you need, and rather than going for blanket advice, narrow in on specific user flows or tasks. On top of that, *the less certain you are about the approach you want to take or about the appropriate solution to pursue, the smaller the pool of respondents you should consult should be.* This is what I mean by "be focused": the more uncertainly in the project, the fewer external voices you should consult, especially en masse; the further along in the project you are, and the more certainty you have, the more you can open it up for general feedback. Note too that people will bring their own preferences, assumptions and beliefs with them, so choose your early critics wisely. 7. **Care deeply and sacrifice nothing.** This one's probably the hardest of all, and really can only be learned/earned over time. The role of the designer is, against all odds, to synthesize and to make sense of ambiguous circumstances, poor or changing problem descriptions, to weigh the individual needs of project sponsors, of product users, or subjective tastes and of sating the hunger of one's own ego to produce something better than you thought yourself capable of. And it's nearly impossible to fake it. But the best approach seems to be to do your homework and care deeply about the work that you're doing and to identify with the problem that you're trying to solve. Sacrifice nothing in the way of arriving at a solution that meets your highest personal criteria. It helps when you're your own worst (best) critic, but it's all the more essential when you're putting yourself out there for public scrutiny. If you know that you're not going to let yourself get away with anything, you should be able to face whatever slings and arrows the outside world will heave your way, all as part of. And so we return to the case of the WordPress 2.4 Admin Dashboard. It's unclear who owns this project or the feedback coming in (I don't remember seeing a public call for comments, so this must just be unsolicited feedback), but I sure as heck hope that whoever it is takes this current round of feedback with less than a grain of salt. As far as I'm concerned (and as much as I'd like to affect the design process myself) WordPress deserves more time to make its case for the new design, and to implement closer to 70-80% of the design before people start pontificating about how things should be different (or remain the same) (not like any such plea will stem the onslaught). With open source development, the cat is always out of the bag. As such, it keeps you honest and focused on issues that people care about, even if they're occasionally peripheral to the main issues you set out to solve. So the problem with open source design is not the feedback (designers et al should be grateful when it comes) but with the ego issues that are wrapped up in how feedback is delivered and how it's received. And these are ultimately social issues. The points I outlined above have as much to do with clear communication, acknowledgement and a Buddhist-esque equanimity as with any kind of formal design training. If open source design is to advance, and to become a dominant force in the creation of exquisite software experiences and interfaces, I say we start here. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[robinadr | An Influx of Updates](http://robinadr.com/2008/01/an%5Finflux%5Fof%5Fupdates?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 01:14:11 \[...\] commit them to the public (note, public) repository in such early stages, and Chris Messina has something related to say about that, which I agreed \[...\] **[Jack @ Tech Teapot](http://www.openxtra.co.uk/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 04:48:50 Some of the best software I've used often comes from a single individual's vision. In open source, with distributed development, a single vision can be difficult to achieve. Quite often nobody really "owns" the look and feel and consequently things tend to develop into a hodge podge of different standards. Open source software is also often cross platform which makes the problem even more difficult. **[Design, Feedback, WordPress and the Community at Alex Jones](http://www.silverspider.com/2008/design-feedback-wordpress-and-the-community/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 07:31:36 \[...\] Messina has posted a great entry discussing the problems with open source design, with a focus on the new administrative interface for WordPress 2.4, which is generating a lot of \[...\] **[monkinetic | Blog Archive » Open Source, Product Design, and DiS](http://redmonk.net/archives/2008/01/03/open-source-product-design-and-dis/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 07:59:15 \[...\] touched on a lot. This is, in some ways, a response to Chris’s most recent post, The problem with open source design. But this isn’t really about design per \[...\] **Brian Burlock** ¡ 2008-01-03 11:18:34 Happy Cog seems to be in charge of this undertaking and I don't know if any of them have worked on applicaiton UI ever. They are a great micro site company where there are only a couple of pages. I don't think any of them understand application flow, but they might not be doing that. This is only 10%, I will hold judgment until it is 80%. **[Stephane Daury](http://tekartist.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 12:44:40 Just a quick follow up on the WP stuff: Matt chimed in with what I think is the right decision today: http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/2008-January/016993.html **[SpoonOS » Blog Archive » Open Source Design Management](http://spoonos.org/blog/?p=7&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 12:50:36 \[...\] a little too intently but I think there’s a lot of value in individual skill and focus. This post by Chris Messina makes some very valid points. I want the project to be open enough to allow customization on your \[...\] **[Kevin T Driver](http://lifeasitcomes.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 13:19:25 excellent post. **[Paul Downey :: A Vision of The Web in 2008](http://blog.whatfettle.com/2008/01/04/a-vision-of-the-web-in-2008/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 15:14:17 \[...\] and support, is by releasing Open Source. One area this still remains a challenge is in the field of design. Agile development and Open Source haven’t always led to good user interfaces or experiences, \[...\] **[Chris Bernard](http://www.designthinkingdigest.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 17:00:46 A wonderful and thoughtful post. BTW, I'd hanker that Happy Cog does indeed know alot about functional design. It's hard designing any interface that is used by thousands or even millions of users and a singular vision that can drive and motivate design is important (and it doesn't need to be absolute). When I look at what it perhaps the pinnacle of design practice that community-based development can draw inspriation from I always come back to film-making. The director 'owns' the vision but the final output is always a collaborative effort. Chris Bernard, User Experience Evangelist, Microsoft **Jason Santa Maria** ¡ 2008-01-04 10:39:22 @Brian We do indeed have experience in app UI, it's just not what we do most of these days. Nice post, Chris. Like everyone has been saying, we're only seeing a fraction of what this will look like, and more importantly, function like. There's little point in commenting too much about it yet, because we'd be commenting on an unfinished application. I can however say that we did a lot of work on the planning and research end of things in tandem with interviewing many WP users. Some things are definitely going to change, and like any change, it's going to take some time for people to accept it. **[Wordpress Design Complaints? « The Pursuit of a Life](http://xidey.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/wordpress-design-complaints/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 11:29:46 \[...\] Published January 4, 2008 Web Tags: Chris Messina, Design, WordPress Chris Messina gets offended by the upcoming comp for the WordPress 2.4 Admin Panel. He turns it into a complaint about \[...\] **[tecosystems » links for 2008-01-11](http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/01/10/links-for-2008-01-11/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-10 21:30:24 \[...\] The problem with open source design | FactoryCity i’ve seen this, or variations of it, made for some time. and while i don’t fully buy the argument, there’s truth to it and the evidence does support the case. (tags: collaboration design development opensource ui feedback) \[...\] **[Open Beats Closed, Except When It Doesn’t at Like It Matters](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2008/01/25/open-beats-closed-except-when-it-doesnt/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-25 07:43:11 \[...\] practiced by a small band led by a benevolent dictator. You can see Chris complaining about the ineffectiveness of open-source design. Adam Greenfield throwing Sugar under the bus as another flawed exampled of FLOSS experience. \[...\] **Mark** ¡ 2009-09-29 23:36:23 Open Source is more than a group of people working together towards a singular product. The term refers to any production made with "open" and free (libre) access to the code/source. You seem to be talking more specifically about community, or democratic design. Where-in a group of contributors work towards a singular goal/product. Which has rarely been very awe-inspiring in Architecture (my field) or community planning, for sure, and probably won't get much better in graphic or interface design. What you describe does use open source, allowing everybody access to how the design is made, however its only an application of open source, for the purpose of collaborative design. Open Source (open access to code) can result in infinite iterations, from which excellent or terrible productions can be gleaned. ### Kicking off 2008 with a themeword URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/kicking-off-2008-with-a-themeword/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:39.000Z ![#themeword](http://img.skitch.com/20080102-tj422hud5g6umwnka2hptribk9.png) At [Lifecamp](http://lifecamp.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) on Monday, (incidentally held at [Tantek's](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) Port Zero) we had a session where the small group of us brainstormed what [Erica Douglass](http://www.erica.biz/?ref=chrismessina.me) called "theme words" that might help us focus our goals for 2008\. Erica's [theme word for 2008 is "connect"](http://www.erica.biz/2007/2008-goals/?ref=chrismessina.me). Mine is "[conduct](http://wordie.org/words/conduct?ref=chrismessina.me)" (in all its meanings). [Alex Hillman's](http://www.dangerouslyawesome.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is ["growth"](http://www.dangerouslyawesome.com/2008/01/02/beginning-2008-with-a-dream/?ref=chrismessina.me). Now, this is a pretty simple exercise and a good way to kick off the New Year. What's most interesting about this, however, is that we were able to extend participation by constructing a [hashtag-based meme](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/23/making-the-most-of-hashtags/?ref=chrismessina.me) on Twitter. It [started simply enough](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/550902792?ref=chrismessina.me): [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2158930735/?ref=chrismessina.me)The [response that has followed](http://www.davidsterry.com/tweetscan/index.php?s=themeword&ref=chrismessina.me) has been pretty incredible, and demonstrates the value of using [community-driven hashtags](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/08/25/groups-for-twitter-or-a-proposal-for-twitter-tag-channels/?ref=chrismessina.me) to both generate and [follow a meme](http://hashtags.org/tag/themeword/?ref=chrismessina.me) (using [hashtags.org](http://hashtags.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Now, you obviously don't have to use Twitter to participate; you can simply blog your own themeword and tag it with "[themeword](http://technorati.com/tag/themeword?ref=chrismessina.me)" or you could just write it down for yourself, and check back in at the end of the year and reflect on whether you stuck to your theme. Either way, I'm already starting to see how "conduct" is a good word for me in 2008! What's yours? --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Ben Tremblay** ¡ 2008-01-02 13:46:48 I was watching / filtering in terms of interactivity. E.g. PhotoMatt's was "enable". (IIRC mine was "participation".) This might sound like over-kill nonsense, but: do we have the tools to do multivariate analysis on words/terms? (Lord knows we were doing discourse analysis for years before SemWeb was even coined as a phrase.) **[Wayne Sutton](http://waynesutton.myopeind.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-02 13:54:52 Good post for new year, my themeword is "focus" **[Ted Rheingold](http://www.spideysenses.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-02 13:59:16 Techie question, but any guess why mine did not get picked up? http://twitter.com/tedr/statuses/552106872 Perhaps the first character shouldn't be the '#'? Also very interesting to see the optimism in the answers. Considering the national forecast for wonky financial markets and global expectations of ongoing war without resolve. My runner-up themeword was 'rollercoaster' t- **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-02 14:05:53 @Ben: I have no idea...! ;) @Ted: odd. Good question. I'll poke the hashtags.org guys. **[Aaron Farnham](http://hashtags.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-02 16:21:05 @Ted: There are a couple of reasons we may have missed it. First we have to manually turn on notifications for each person that follows the hashtags bot. So we may have been slow on turning that on for you and missed your tweet. The other issue is a technical problem I was having with XMPP for the past week. XMPP is the protocol used for jabber clients (i.e. google talk). The hashtags bot is basically a glorified XMPP client. Anyhow, I think I have it tackled with a nasty hack I am too embarrassed to go into detail about. Regardless I have noticed we are not missing tweets anymore like we were last week. The real solution will be to make a hashtags.org jabber server...but that is a little down the line. After all, I have a day job as well. This is just a fun side project right now :) All that to say...sorry! Hopefully we won't missing anything else from you. **[bdot - beth goza » #themeword for 2008: create](http://bethgo.com/2008/01/02/themeword-for-2008-create/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-02 16:36:20 \[...\] to erica douglass, chris messina and others, i have a themeword for 2008\. my word is create. in the practical \[...\] **[Ted Rheingold](http://www.spideysenses.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-02 22:22:52 Aaron, Well if I had just read, you need to follow hashtags to be found I wouldn't have had to ask my silly question. I'm following now. Keep up the good work. It's great. **[Paul Downey :: My Themeword is Fillip](http://blog.whatfettle.com/2008/01/03/my-themeword-is-fillip/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 04:31:18 \[...\] Via Chris \[...\] **[on #themeword « Juliette Melton](http://juliemelton.com/2008/01/03/on-themeword/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 21:47:46 \[...\] January 3, 2008 ¡ No Comments One of the highlights of LifeCamp was the discussion about theme words and what our theme word for 2008 would be. (Mine was “create.”) Chris Messina posted his to twitter, with a twitter hashtag, and thus a meme was born. See Chris’s recounting: Kicking off 2008 with a themeword \[...\] **[Chris Brogan...](http://chrisbrogan.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-05 10:14:48 Not at all related to the themeword post, you and I were just reading each other's blogs at the same time. I went to your post about scraping and the like, at the same time you left that comment. Weird. : ) Oh, and good post! If I only get ONE word, I'll go with #themeword farm. **[Where Should I Start? at Alex Jones](http://www.silverspider.com/2008/where-should-i-start/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-09 06:09:30 \[...\] my themeword for 2008 is Explore (other people’s choices are interesting too), I am kicking off a new \[...\] **[Tim Riley](http://openmonkey.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-20 18:30:14 Hi Chris, thanks for sharing this themeword idea. It piqued my interest when I read about it, but I never planned to choose one and share it. However, the other night, the perfect word came to me, and it has helped me to crystallise what I plan to achieve in the coming year. I've blogged about it [here](http://log.openmonkey.com/post/24247114?ref=chrismessina.me). Thanks again! **[that canadian girl » Blog Archive » Themeword: Exploration](http://www.thatcanadiangirl.co.uk/blog/2008/02/09/themeword-exploration/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-09 11:13:09 \[...\] early January, Chris Messina and many others kicked off the new year with “theme words”, ideas that should help them \[...\] **[The Vox Pop Log – Year in Pop – 2009 Themes and Goal Setting](http://voxpopdesign.com/bloomburst/wordpress/?p=1292&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-12-30 10:55:36 \[...\] first heard of the concept of #themewords from Chris Messina. (I was reminded of it by Tara Hunt’s 2010 themeword post.) It encapsulates everything you \[...\] **[Rick Bellefond](http://www.rbdata.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-04-08 23:17:34 Interesting post and comments. My themeword would be leverage. ### Fluid, Prism, Mozpad and site-specific browsers URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/fluid-prism-mozpad-and-site-specific-browsers/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:38.000Z [Matt Gertner](http://www.allpeers.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me) of [AllPeers](http://www.allpeers.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) wrote a post the other day titled, "[Wither Mozpad?](http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/allpeers/~3/204569410/?ref=chrismessina.me)" In it he poses a question about the enduring viability of [Mozpad](http://mozpad.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), an initiative begat in May to [bring together](http://mozpad.org/doku.php?id=goal&ref=chrismessina.me) independent **Moz**illa **P**latform **A**pplication **D**evelopers, to fill the vacuum [left](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2007/05/xul%5Fand%5Fxulrunner%5Finvestment.html?ref=chrismessina.me) by Mozilla's [Firefox-centric](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/12/stories%5Fwe%5Fwant%5F1.html?ref=chrismessina.me) [developer programs](http://shaver.off.net/diary/2007/06/13/why-is-that-an-or-question/?ref=chrismessina.me). Now, many months after its founding, the group is still without a compelling [raison d’être](http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/08/22/mozpad-musings/?ref=chrismessina.me), and has failed to mobilize or catalyze widespread interest or momentum. Should the fledgling effort be disbanded? Is there not enough sustaining interest in independent, non-Firefox XUL development to warrant a dedicated group? Perhaps. There are many things that I'd like to say both about Mozilla and about Mozpad, but what I'm most interesting in discussing presently is the opportunity that sits squarely at the feet of Mozilla and Mozpad and fortuitously extends beyond the world-unto-itself-land of XUL: namely, the opportunity that I believe lies in the development of [*site-specific browsers*](http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/12/13/do-you-need-a-site-specific-browser/?ref=chrismessina.me), or, to throw out a marketing term: *rich internet applications* (no doubt I'll [catch flak](http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/10/25/mozilla-prism-and-the-disingenuous-web/?ref=chrismessina.me) for suggesting the combination of these terms, but frankly it's only a matter of time before any distinctions dissolve). [](http://fluidapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)If you're just tuning in, you may or may not be aware of the creeping rise of SSBs. I've personally been [working on](http://webkit.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) these glorified rendering engines for some time, primarily inspired first by [Mike McCracken's](http://michael-mccracken.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Webmail.app](http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/?p=44&ref=chrismessina.me) and then later [Ben Willmore's](http://willmore.eu/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Gmail Browser](http://willmore.eu/gmailbrowser/?ref=chrismessina.me), most recently seeing the fruition of this idea culminated in Ruben Bakker's pay-for Gmail wrapper [Mailplane.app](http://mailplaneapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). More recently we've seen [developments](http://lifehacker.com/software/featured-mac-download/add-webapps-to-your-dock-with-fluid-333566.php?ref=chrismessina.me) like [Todd Ditchendorf's](http://www.ditchnet.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Fluid.app](http://fluidapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) which generates increasingly functional SSBs and prior to that, the stupidly-simple [Direct URL](http://osx.iusethis.com/app/directurl?ref=chrismessina.me). But that's just progress on the [WebKit](http://webkit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) side of things. If you've been following the work of [Mark Finkle](http://starkravingfinkle.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), you'll be able to both [trace the threads](http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2007/03/site-specific-browser-using-webrunner/?ref=chrismessina.me) of [Web Runner's](http://wiki.mozilla.org/WebRunner?ref=chrismessina.me) [transformation](http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2007/10/webrunner-becomes-prism-a-mozilla-labs-project/?ref=chrismessina.me) into the [full-fledged](http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/10/24/prism/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Prism](http://labs.mozilla.com/2007/10/prism/?ref=chrismessina.me) project, as well as the [germination of Mozpad](http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/allpeers/~3/149274926/?ref=chrismessina.me). Clearly something is going on here, and when measured against Microsoft's Silverlight and Adobe's AIR frameworks, we're starting to see the emergence of an opportunity that I think will turn out to be [rather significant in 2008](http://citizengarden.com/2007/12/21/episode-1-winter-solstice-edition/?ref=chrismessina.me), especially as an alternative, [non-proprietary](http://shaver.off.net/diary/2007/12/12/being-open-about-being-closed/?ref=chrismessina.me) path for folks wishing to develop richer experiences without the cost, or the heaviness, of *actually* native apps. Yes, the rise of these hybrid apps that *look* like desktop-apps, but benefit from the connectedness and *always-up-to-date-ness* of web apps is what I see as the unrecognized *fait accompli* of the current class of stand-alone, standards compliant rendering engines. This trend is powerful enough, in my thinking, to render the whole [discussion about the future of the W3C uninteresting](http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2007/12/is-the-sacred-c.html?ref=chrismessina.me), if not downright frivolous. A side effect of the rise of SSBs is the gradual obsolescence of XUL (which already currently only holds value in the meta-UI layer of Mozilla apps). Let's face it: the delivery mechanism of today's Firefox extensions is broken (restarting an app to install an extension is *so Windows! yuck!*), and needs to be replaced by built-in appendages that offer better and more robust integration with external web services (a design that I had intended for [Flock](http://flock.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) that also provides a [web-native approach to extensibility](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/23/site-specific-browsers-and-greasekit/?ref=chrismessina.me). As far as I'm concerned, XUL development is [all but dead](http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/XUL%5Fimprovements%5Fin%5FFirefox%5F3?ref=chrismessina.me) and will eventually be relegated to the same hobby-sport nichefication of VRML scripting. (And if you happen to disagree with me here, I'm surprised that you haven't gotten more involved in the doings of [Mozpad](http://mozpad.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)). But all this is frankly good for Mozilla, for WebKit ([and Apple), for Google](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/08/30/ruminating-on-gpple/?ref=chrismessina.me), for web standards, for open source, for microformats, for OpenID and OAuth and all my favorite [open and non-proprietary technologies](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/most%5Fpromising%5Fweb%5F2008%5Fopen%5Fsource.php?ref=chrismessina.me). The more the future is built on — and benefits from — the open architecture of the web, the greater the likelihood that we will continue to shut down and defeat the efforts that attempt to close it up, to create *property* out of it, to segregate and discriminate against its users, and to otherwise attack the *very natural* and inclusive design of internet. Site specific browsers (or rich internet applications or whatever they might end up being called — hell, probably just *"Applications"* for most people) are important because, for a change, they simply side-step the standards issues and let web developers and designers focus on functionality and design directly, without necessarily worrying about the idiosyncrasies (or [non-compliance](http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/?ref=chrismessina.me)) of different browsers ([Jon Crosby](http://www.kaboomerang.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) offers [an example of this approach](http://www.kaboomerang.com/blog/2007/11/29/getting-to-10-actiontastic-actionatr-gwt-and-automagic-rest/?ref=chrismessina.me)). With real competition and [exciting additions](http://webkit.org/blog/122/webkit-3-10-new-things/?ref=chrismessina.me) being made [regularly](http://webkit.org/blog/153/webkit-gets-native-getelementsbyclassname/?ref=chrismessina.me) to each rendering engine, there's also benefit in picking a side, while things are still fairly fluid, and joining up where you feel better supported, with the [means](http://labs.mozilla.com/2007/12/introducing-weave/?ref=chrismessina.me) to do cooler things and where generally less effort will enable you to kick more ass. But all this is a way of saying that Mozpad is still a valid idea, even if the form or the original focus (XUL development) was off. In fact, what I think would be more useful is a cross-platform inquiry into what the future of Site Specific Browsers might (or should) look like... regardless of rendering engine. With that in mind, sometime this spring (sooner than later I hope), I'll put together a meetup with folks like Todd, Jon, [Phil "Journler" Dow](http://www.getsprouted.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me) and anyone else interested in this realm, just to bat around some ideas and get the conversation started. Hell, it's going on already, but it seems time that we got together face to face to start looking at, seriously, what kind of opportunity we're sitting on here. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Scott Allan Wallick](http://scottwallick.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-28 23:02:15 Personally, I use Gmail and Google Reader solely with Prism. I think it's a great tool and very useful to me. Though I'm not sure there's anything else Prism can offer. It already does 100% of what I want out of it. **[enefekt](http://enefekt.com/sansbrowser/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-29 06:41:23 "they simply side-step the standards issues and let web developers and designers focus on functionality and design directly, without necessarily worrying about the idiosyncrasies (or non-compliance) of different browsers" Hold up.. \[tires screeching\] One the last few remaining reasons to hold onto choosing HTML and the browser DOM to develop client side apps was the whole pseudo-cross-browser-capability (which was never really there in the first place). By coding for a particular browser platform you throw that away. In my mind this cements choosing a real cross-platform solution (albeit proprietary) such as one based on the Flash Player and/or Adobe AIR. Really, why hate on AIR so much, the Flash Player has rocked for so long and is going even stronger today. That really shows how much potential (and kinetic) energy that Adobe AIR has. I won't even touch the whole XUL thing. I'm exhausted by it by now. BTW, your SSB meet-up sounds interesting. **[tekArtist » End of Support for Netscape Web Browsers](http://tekartist.org/blog/2007/12/29/end-of-support-for-netscape-web-browsers/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-29 12:26:03 \[...\] I’m on the browser subject, everybody’s favourite Factory Joe (aka Chris Messina) has a great post touching on the rising trend site specific browsers and the state of the Mozpad project (and by \[...\] **[Stephane Daury](http://tekartist.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-29 12:40:58 I wonder how much the Eclipse project is to "blame" for the lack of adoption of XUL and the Mozilla codebase as a development framework? EG: Komodo IDE vs. Eclipse IDE. **[Jesse Andrews](http://overstimulate.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-30 13:55:49 Interesting. I still like hacking in XUL, but that is mostly because there are somethings that are almost impossible to do in HTML (nice DND support from the desktop). Another interesting point about site-specific browsers is that by using them for your most important accounts, it protects you against certain types of attacks. If you never log into gmail in your normal browser, then you cannot be exposed if google has a temporary CSRF vulnerability - I talked about it a bit [on my blog](http://overstimulate.com/articles/2007/12/25/on-the-importance-of-csrf-protection?ref=chrismessina.me) a few days ago. **[Morethanseven » Things to entertain us in 2008](http://morethanseven.net/posts/things-to-entertain-us-in-2008/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-03 16:20:53 \[...\] few people have already waxed lyrical about Site Specific Browsers and after trying out Prism for a few weeks \[...\] **[Eran Sandler](http://eran.sandler.co.il/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-22 23:02:14 There is an additional SSB called Bubbles (I think it was one of the first but it never got the coverage the others did). http://www.3d3r.com/bubbles/ It has the ability to interact with your desktop as well, so you can get a nice notification on your desktop when you have new mail on Gmail or a reminder in GCalendar. It's all based on a JavaScript API that you can add to your site enhancing it for SSBs. **[Mark Finkle’s Weblog » Zimbra on Prism & Other New Stuff](http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2008/02/zimbra-on-prism-other-new-stuff/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-13 23:10:15 \[...\] can haz WHATWG spec plz? A site specific browser meetup sounds like a good \[...\] ### Making the most of hashtags URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/making-the-most-of-hashtags/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:37.000Z [](http://www.hashtags.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)A couple of days ago a new site called [Hashtags.org](http://www.hashtags.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) was [launched](http://hashtags.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/weve-changed-the-way-hashtags-work/?ref=chrismessina.me) by [Cody Marx Bailey](http://codymarxbailey.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Aaron Farnham](http://twitter.com/afarnham?ref=chrismessina.me), two ambitious college students folks from Bryan & College Station, Texas. I wanted to take a moment to comment on its arrival and also suggest a slight modification to the purpose and use of hashtags, now that we have a service for making visible this kind of metadata. First of all, if you're unfamiliar with hashtags or why people might be prepending words in their tweets with hash symbols (#), read [Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/08/25/groups-for-twitter-or-a-proposal-for-twitter-tag-channels/?ref=chrismessina.me) to get caught up on where this idea came from. You should note two things: first, when I made my initial proposal, Twitter didn't have the track feature; second, I was looking to solve some pretty specific problems, largely related to [groupings](http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/2007/09/facebook----wha.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and to filtering and to amplifying intent (i.e. when making generic statements, appending an additional tag or two might help others better understand your intent). For consistency, my initial proposal required that all important terms be prefixed with the hash, despite how ugly this makes individual updates look. The idea was that, I'd try it out, see how it worked, and if someone built something off of it, or [other people adopted the convention](http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2007/12/18/hashtags-for-my-followees/?ref=chrismessina.me), I could decide if the hassle and [ugliness](http://twitter.com/eston/statuses/376800752?ref=chrismessina.me) were ultimately worth it. A short time after I published my proposal, the [track feature launched](http://twitter.com/blog/2007/09/tracking-twitter.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and obviated parts of my proposal. Though the track feature provided a means for following *explicit* information, there was still no official means to add additional information, whether for later recall purposes or to help provide more context for a specific update. And since Twitter currently reformats long links as meaningless TinyURLs, it's nice to be able to [provide folks with a hint](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/523122602?ref=chrismessina.me) about the content at the end of the link. On top of those benefits, hashtags provide a mechanism for leveraging Twitter's tracking functionality even if your update doesn't include a specific keyword by itself. Now, I'll grant you that a lot of this is esoteric. Especially given that Twitter is predicated on answering the base question "what are you doing?" I mean, a lot of this hashtag stuff is gravy, but for those who use it, it could provide a great deal of value, just like the community-driven @reply convention. Moreover, we've already seen some really compelling and unanticipated uses of hashtags on Twitter — in particular the use of the [#sandiegofire](http://twitter.com/sandiegofire?ref=chrismessina.me) hashtag as a [common means for identifying information related to the San Diego fires](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/22/twitter-hashtags-for-emergency-coordination-and-disaster-relief/?ref=chrismessina.me). And that's really just the beginning. With a service like [Tweeterboard](http://tweeterboard.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) providing even more interesting and contextual social statistics, it won't be long before you'll be able to discover people who talk about similar topics or ideas that you might enjoy following. And now, with [Hashtags.org](http://www.hashtags.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), trends in the frequency of certain topics will become all the more [visible and quantifiable](http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/2007/12/hashtagsorg.html?ref=chrismessina.me). BUT, there is a limit here, and just because we *can* add all this fancy value on top of the blogosphere's *central intelligence system* doesn't mean that our first attempt at doing so is the *best* way to do it, or that we should definitely do it at all, especially if it comes at a high cost (perceived or real) to other users of the system. Already it's been made clear to me that the use of hashtags can be annoying, adding more noise than value. Some people just don't like how they look. Still others feel that they encumber a simple communication system that should do one thing and one thing well, secondary uses be damned if they don't *blend* with the how the system is generally used. This isn't [del.icio.us](http://delicious.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) or [Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) after all. And these points are all valid and well taken, but I think there's some middle ground here. Used sparingly, respectfully and in appropriate measure, I think that the value generated from the use of hashtags is substantial enough to warrant their continued use, and it isn't just hashtags.org that suggests this to me. In fact, I think hashtags.org, in the short term, might do more damage than good, if only because it means people will have to compose messages in unnatural ways to take advantage of the service, and this is *never* the way to design good software (sorry guys, but I think there's room to improve the basic track feature yet). In fact, with the release of the track feature, it became clear that every word used in a post is important and holds value (something that both [Jack](http://twitter.com/jack?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Blaine](http://twitter.com/blaine?ref=chrismessina.me) noted in our early discussions). But it's also true that without certain keywords present in a post, the track feature is useless. In this case in particular, where they provide additional context, I think hashtags serve a purpose. Consider this: "Tara really rocked that presentation!" versus: "Tara really rocked that presentation! #barcampblock" In the latter example, the presence of the hashtag provides two explicit benefits: first, anyone tracking "barcampblock" will get the update, and second, those who don't know where Tara is presenting will be clued into the context of the post. In another example: "300,000 people evacuated in San Diego county now." versus "#sandiegofire: 300,000 people evacuated in San Diego county now." Again, the two benefits are present here, demonstrating the value of concatenated hashtags where using the space-separated phrase "San Diego" would not have been caught by the track feature. What I don't think is as useful as when I first made my proposal (pre-tracking) is calling out specific words in a post for emphasis (unless you're referring to a place or airport, but that's mostly personal preference). For example, revising my previous proposal, I think that this approach is now gratuitous: "Eating #popcorn at #Batman in #IMAX." Removing the hashes doesn't actually reduce the meaning of this post, nor does it affect the tracking feature. And, leaving them out makes the whole update look much better: "Eating popcorn at Batman in IMAX." If you wanted to give your friends some idea of where you are, it might be okay to use: "Eating popcorn at Batman in IMAX at #Leows." ...but even still, the hash is not wholly necessary, if only to help denote some specialness to the term "Leows". So, with that, I'm thrilled to see hashtags.org get off the ground, but it's use should not interfere with the conventional use of Twitter. As well, they provide additional value when used conservatively, at least until there is a better way to insert metadata into a post. As with most technology development, it's best to iterate quickly, try a bunch of things (rather than just talk about them) and see what actually sticks. In the case of hashtags, I think we're gradually getting to a pretty clear and useful application of the idea, if not the perfect implementation so far. Anyway, this kind of "conversational development" that allows the best approach to emerge over time while smoothing out the rough edges of an original idea seems to be a pretty effective way to go about making change, and it's promising to see efforts like hashtags.org take a simple — if not controversial — proposal, and push it forward yet another step. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-23 20:49:23 Terraminds (http://terraminds.com/twitter/) also recognizes hashtags as different. (ie, http://terraminds.com/twitter/query?query=%23diso&submit=search+in+updates), note the #blah are linked unless they are the current result... Will check out hashtags.org **[Steven Hodson](http://www.winextra.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-23 20:58:13 Chris, At the risk of sounding like I'm patting myself on the back I'd like to add that [TwitBox](http://www.winextra.com/homegrown-software/twitbox-for-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me) was the first 3rd party Twitter client to support #hashtags. I'm not sure if other's have decided to support the concept but I will be keeping with it and adding to it as more posts like this one try to solidify the idea. **[More on Hashtags | Library Stuff](http://www.librarystuff.net/2007/12/24/more-on-hashtags/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-24 17:00:30 \[...\] Making the most of hashtags from FactoryCity (via Robert Scoble’s shared items - he’s the king of sharing) Posted in twitter | Trackback | del.icio.us | Top Of Page \[...\] **[Favorieten en bookmarks voor 22nd December tot 25th December » Cafe del Marketing](http://www.polle.net/2007/12/26/favorieten-en-bookmarks-voor-22nd-december-tot-25th-december/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-25 16:30:38 \[...\] Making the most of hashtags | FactoryCity - \[...\] **[Teketen](http://microformats.org/wiki/twitternanoformats?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-26 06:23:03 Very usefull. We are triying to get from the community all we can to create a convention microformat (nanoformats) and this is one of the questions we have to accept #tag. Now is solved, thanks! **[Blip i Blipcast, czyli ma?a burza w blogosferze | nrafal.pl - o Internecie z pasj?](http://nrafal.pl/2008/01/05/blip-i-blipcast-czyli-mala-burza-w-blogosferze/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-05 06:25:24 \[...\] i zastanowi? si? nad jej mo?liwymi i sensownymi zastosowaniami (tak?e w kontek?cie tego, co podrzuci? reuptake). Nie zd??y?em tego zrobi?, a dzi? okaza?o si?, ?e blogosfera ju? o tym dyskutuje (patrz: \[...\] **[Andy Mabbett](http://pigsonthewing.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-05 14:58:45 I've blogged a similar idea, which would allow the publishing of microformats within twitter posts: http://pigsonthewing.wordpress.com/2008/01/05/suggested-method-of-publishing-microformats-in-twitter-posts/ **[http://eirepreneur.myopenid.com/](http://eirepreneur.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-07 11:41:20 I think there's another very interesting possibility for hashtags which answers a growing need on realtime blogging / microblogging platforms like Twitter. Now that I'm following people from nearly every timezone in the world I'm wishing more than ever that there was a single timezone-neutral reference point for coordination of future events. For instance, when one of my friends in Australia (I'm in Ireland myself) tweets that they're about to start live video streaming some event they're attending at 1pm, I need to first remember that they're in the AEDT timezone then convert that to GMT. Alright for one friend once per day, but not for dozens numerous times per day. Horribly messy. So last century. Now recall that the watch maker Swiss Swatch tried to solve this kind of problem a decade ago with "Swatch Internet Time" (SIT) and the idea of dividing the day into a thousand "beats". The notation used to reference a SIT time is @. So @999, for instance, is the same time everywhere in the world. When I first blogged about this today I made the mistake of saying that I'd like to revive SIT. It's a mistake because a universal time reference shouldn't be tied to a single commercial brand. So how about using hastags instead? Instead of tweeting "I'm about to do such and such @059", how about tweeting "I'm about to do such and such at #059". Instead of calling it Swatch Internet Time we could just call it "hashtime". Instead of saying "I'm going to do something at 270 beats", why not say "I'm going to do something at hash270". I can imagine at least one huge benefit if this convention were widely adopted - we could build Twittervision like service for scanning what people are \*intending\* to do at certain times of the day. For instance, if I wanted to record a Skype conversation among four friends in different timezones at some time tonight, I could just propose a time of #0830 and my friends could easily see if that clashes with anything else on that hashtag (for their group of friends). The advantage of stick with 1000 time divisions per day and the Swiss meridian is that you could, in order to bootstrap the efffort, use the downloads from the Swatch website for tracking 'hashtime' :) **[#clouds: Using Twitter as a Command Line Service « Zero influence](http://zeroinfluence.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/clouds-using-twitter-as-a-command-line-service/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-08 15:36:23 \[...\] appear on Twitter recently, promoted by Chris from Citizen Agency. You need to read this post and this one too, to follow this idea. Oh, and have a look at the Twitter Wiki HashTag page for a comprehensive \[...\] **[Twitter Hashtags and Groups « American Pai](http://thepaisano.wordpress.com/2008/04/04/twitter-hashtags-and-groups/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-04 07:18:34 \[...\] in Twitter FactoryJoe’s Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels Factory Joe’s Making the most out of hashtags Twitter Fan Wiki on \[...\] **[Ten Ways Twitter Could Appeal to Joe Average and Become Ubiquitous | Gosdot](http://gosdot.com/unity/2008/05/04/ten-ways-twitter-could-appeal-to-joe-average-and-become-ubiquitous/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-04 18:48:39 \[...\] wouldn’t it be great if a student could ping a dedicated Twitter account with their name as a hashtag (ex. #jongos) and get a response back with their scores? Alternatively pinging the account with a \[...\] **[Blog](http://wildwoodinteractive.com/wordpress/2008/10/15/twitter-hashtags-the-power-of-groups/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-15 06:11:37 \[...\] Factory City post about Hashtags Filed under: Internet, Website, Gadget, Business, Technology — cj @ 8:11 am \[...\] **[WiscNet Wire » Blog Archive » Ideas for Aggregating Student Text Messages from the Innauguration?](http://www.wiscnet.net/wiscnetwire/2009/01/ideas-for-aggregating-student-text-messages-from-the-innauguration/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-09 09:05:51 \[...\] My suggestion would be a combination of Twitter and the use of hashtags. The students could create their own Twitter accounts and agree upon a common tag such as #schoolinnauguration. A simple link to the Twitter search results for #schoolinnauguration would aggregate the results for all those following back home. Here’s a bit more on the use of hashtags. \[...\] **[An Introduction On How To Use #Hashtags In Twitter | Media Leaders](http://medialeaders.tv/2009/09/11/an-introduction-on-how-to-use-hashtags-in-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-14 17:35:43 \[...\] Used sparingly and respectfully, hashtags can provide useful context and cues for recall, as well as increased utility for the track feature. Used excessively can cause annoyance, confusion or frustration, and may lead people to stop following you. It’s best to use hashtags explicitly when they’re going to add value, rather than on every word in an update. \[...\] **[FactoryCity » Kicking off 2008 with a themeword](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/01/02/kicking-off-2008-with-a-themeword/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2011-01-05 08:20:07 \[...\] interesting about this, however, is that we were able to extend participation by constructing a hashtag-based meme on Twitter. It started simply \[...\] **[The end of social media, and naive optimism - Web Directions](https://webdirections.org/blog/the-end-of-social-media-and-naive-optimism/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2023-10-30 14:00:12 \[…\] people from all over the world. Where users contributed to the platform–improvising patterns like the hashtag, building all manner of apps that consumed the then free (now tens or hundreds of thousands of \[…\] ### Public nuisance #1: Importing your contacts URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/public-nuisance-1-importing-your-contacts/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:36.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2110461562/?ref=chrismessina.me)I've [talked about this before](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/06/oauth-10-openid-20-and-up-next-diso/?ref=chrismessina.me) (as one of the secondary motivators behind [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)) but I felt it deserved a special call out. Recently, [Simon Willison](http://simonwillison.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) presented on [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and called the practice that [Dopplr](http://dopplr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (and [many many others](http://flickr.com/search/?q=antipattern&w=25419820%40N00&ref=chrismessina.me)) uses to import your contacts from Gmail absolute horrifying. I would concur, but point out that Dopplr is probably the *least* offender as they also provide safe and effective [hcard importing](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/572687758/?ref=chrismessina.me) from Twitter or any URL, just as [Get Satisfaction does](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/578450098/?ref=chrismessina.me). Unfortunately this latter approach is both less widely implemented and also unfamiliar to many regular folks who really just want to find their friends or invite them to try out a new service. The tragedy here is that these same folks are being [trained to hand out their email address and passwords](http://beth.typepad.com/beths%5Fblog/2007/12/beware-of-spock.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (which also unlock payment services like Google Checkout) regularly just to use a feature that has become more or less commonplace across all social network sites. In fact, it's so common that [Plaxo](http://www.plaxo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) even has a [free widget](http://www.plaxo.com/api/widget?ref=chrismessina.me) that sites can use to automate this process, [as does Gigya](http://www.gigya.com/site/content/widget.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me). Unfortunately, the code for these projects is not really open source, whereas [Dopplr's is](http://code.google.com/p/identity-matcher/?ref=chrismessina.me), providing little assurance or oversight into how the import is done. What's most frustrating about this is that we have the technology to solve this problem once and for all (a mix of OpenID, microformats, OAuth, maybe some Jabber), and actually make this situation better *and* more secure for folks. Why this hasn't happened yet, well, I'm sure it has something to do with politics and resources and who knows what else. Anyway, I'm eager to see a open and free solution to this problem and I think it's the first thing we need to solve after January 1. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Tantek](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-19 12:38:09 Good post Chris. We've also captured this as [social network anti-pattern #1: Upload your Address Book](http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-anti-patterns?ref=chrismessina.me#Upload%5Fyour%5FAddress%5FBook) on the microformats wiki. Please add more examples, screenshots etc. to that wiki page. Please tag any related screenshots on Flickr with: antipattern socialnetworkantipattern Thanks, Tantek **[Sameer Vasta](http://eloquation.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-19 13:16:16 Amen. That's all I had to say. (Those "import your contacts" boxes drive me crazy: why would I give someone my password?) **[Joseph Anthony Pasquale Holsten](http://josephholsten.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-19 13:20:55 This is a great use for oauth and LiveJournal's GMP. But until people realize they can delegate auth without giving over credentials (read "oauth wins"), we're screwed. At least we don't have places asking for your openid, and the username and password at your OP. http://wiki.openid.net/Group\_Membership\_Protocol **[Tara Kelly](http://www.passpack.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-19 13:25:00 On folks are being trained to hand out their email address and passwords - yes, that's frightening indeed. But they do it mostly for the same reason that my mother refuses to believe that certain additives will cause cancer: "If it was really all that bad for me, then someone would make them stop selling it." That thinking + reckless use of technology = disaster **[David Recordon](http://www.davidrecordon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-19 13:28:57 I'll help to spec it out! Should be fairly easy to do like a 0.3 version based on Atom, OAuth, OpenID, etc. **Andrew** ¡ 2007-12-19 17:07:01 Tara's point brings up something worth mentioning: this practice is popular because it works pretty darn well for users. People understand the goal ("avoid retyping all those damn addresses"), and the interaction model is very clear. "Upload Your address book" may be the technical anti-pattern, but it's a very effective design pattern. Anything that wants to compete with the current way needs to keep it \*as simple\* as the current way from the user's point of view. **[Dawn Foster](http://fastwonderblog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-19 19:44:40 right on! First, I'm not giving my password to a random social networking site. Second, I'll invite the contacts that I want to invite to a particular service. Yes, it may save time to import, but I don't need a bot to send friend invites for me. I'd consider it with your idea of basing it on OpenID, etc. where I might have a little more control over the process along with better security. **[Oxa Koba](http://oxakoba.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-19 20:21:02 I have been surprised at the responses provided by customer support when this issue is raised. For example, here is what [Geni](http://forum.geni.com/topic.php?id=1568&ref=chrismessina.me#post-8139), had to say: > Geni doesn't actually store the external passwords you enter after it retrieves the contacts, so if Geni was to ever be compromised, the thieves would not be able to get anything other than the e-mails addresses themselves, not the passwords or e-mail messages. They side-stepped the issue, ignoring the potential of the web services abusing the information itself. Not to mention the lil' phishy training that users internalize in the process. **[Christian Scholz](http://mrtopf.de/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-20 05:30:32 Indeed the security risks with these practices are obvious but it has been indeed the simplest solution for quite some time. I'd think that Dopplr's hCard approach is good but maybe so far only understandable to geeks. For the short term I see the best solution here to use OAuth, Google would need to step forward and enable getting your addressbook via OAuth. Having then libraries for PHP, Ruby, Python etc. for this would IMHO help quite a bit here. OpenID is not really needed in this step I think but of course it would be great if this could be added in the same step and maybe make it automatable even more. On the long run I'd like to see little reason to login anywhere to fetch all my contacts from x different places. I would want one place (which I choose) where my contacts are stored. When I login to some new service it should automatically discover these with me just deciding which should be transferred (maybe group based). But I think we are going in this direction anyway with things like DiSo et. al. It's mostly a question of adoption. **[Daniel Lackey](http://danielandjill.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-20 12:33:28 "I’d think that Dopplr’s hCard approach is good but maybe so far only understandable to geeks." And therein lies the problem. OAuth is a great idea, but how do you convince Joe Shmoe that it's worth him figuring out? Geeks will flock to OAuth inevitably after hearing about it, but they aren't really the folks who need this. They know better than to give out info like this; Granny Jones doesn't. "But I think we are going in this direction anyway with things like DiSo et. al. It’s mostly a question of adoption." QFT **[poso.dk - om portable sociale netvĂŚrk » Interessante links fundet d. 20\. December](http://www.poso.dk/2007/12/21/interessante-links-fundet-d-20-december/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-20 16:33:48 \[...\] Public nuisance #1: Importing your contacts | FactoryCity - DISO gruppen prøver at finde en alternativ metode til at importere kontakter - fordi det er noget rigtig skidt at udlevere brugernavn og kodeord til ens email adresse! \[...\] **[Enthousiasmeren](http://www.enthousiasmeren.nl/archives/2007/12/24/een-bijzonder-jaar-met-vele-nieuwe-online-vrienden/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-24 12:27:37 **Een bijzonder jaar met vele nieuwe (online) vrienden...**Als dit je eerste keer is op dit blog, wil je misschien een abonnement op mijn RSS feed of mijn wekelijkse nieuwsbrief in je inbox. Dank voor je bezoek! Het jaar is bijna voorbij. En het was een bijzonder jaar voor mij. Mijn eerste volledige jaa... **[Henrik Biering Âť Getting rid of bad habits …](http://henrik.biering.dk/2007/12/29/getting-rid-of-bad-habits/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-29 08:23:07 \[...\] and comfortable in their interaction with other users.The alternative - continuing and developing todays community site practices - seems to me a scary vision for the future of identity \[...\] **[This Antipattern is Kryptonite to the Open Social Web at Like It Matters](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2008/01/04/this-antipattern-is-kryptonite-to-the-open-social-web/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-04 06:57:43 \[...\] keep wagging our collective fingers about this antipattern of asking users to input their credentials for another service but evidently no \[...\] **[Boxbe Blog » Blog Archive » Boxbe heading to Yahoo! Hack Day](http://blog.boxbe.com/about-boxbe/boxbe-heading-to-yahoo-hack-day?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-11 13:43:34 \[...\] be adding their Address Book API very soon so that we’re not using that not-so-nice anti-pattern we keep hearing about. We’re hoping to learn more about it and other APIs that Yahoo! is \[...\] **[Responding to criticisms about OpenID: convenience, security and personal agency | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/26/responding-to-criticisms-about-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 13:51:15 \[...\] At best, combined with OAuth, third-parties never need your account password, defeating the password anti-pattern and providing a more secure way to share your data. \[...\] **[Twitter and the Password Anti-Pattern | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/02/twitter-and-the-password-anti-pattern/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-02 18:30:16 \[...\] written about the password anti-pattern before, and have, with regards to Twitter, advocated for the adoption of some form of delegated \[...\] **Reena** ¡ 2009-06-11 11:01:36 Does anybody know if somebody has already created a widget that allows users to import their contacts in a good way... E.g. Some widget that redirects the user to logon directly to GMAIL asks them which contacts they want to import, imports just those contacts, and brings them back to the website. I'm not a programmer... I'm just trying to think of a way that people can get their contacts from other email accounts in a way that's not Phishing site like and super-easy-user-friendly. ### Wither web standards? And a call for new browser wars URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/wither-web-standards-and-a-call-for-new-browser-wars/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:35.000Z There's been a flurry of activity in web standards land lately, with [Opera taking on Microsoft in Europe](http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/?ref=chrismessina.me) over their failure to conform to web standards, while [Andy "Malarkey" Clarke](http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me) [calls BS on the whole CSS Working Group](http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/malarkey/more/css%5Funworking%5Fgroup/?ref=chrismessina.me) thing, pointing to the complicity and corruption that comes with entrenched vendors having little to no incentive to innovate at the speed of the web and Mozilla's [Dave Baron](http://dbaron.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) getting [fed up with backdoor dealings](http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Dec/0076.html?ref=chrismessina.me). In support of his case, [Alex "Dojo Toolkit" Russell](http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) [suggests that we abandon the W3C altogether](http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=642&ref=chrismessina.me) (and [Zeldman](http://www.zeldman.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)\-kind too) and start burning \[our\] standards advocacy literature and start telling \[our\] browser vendors to give \[us\] the new shiny. [Jeff Croft](http://jeffcroft.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) jumps in as well, [asking whether we should return to the browser wars of yore](http://www2.jeffcroft.com/blog/2007/dec/16/do-we-need-return-browser-wars/?ref=chrismessina.me). I attempted to leave a comment on Jeff's blog, but since I was over his 3000 character limit, I'm blogging it here, without the normal care that I usually take with posts here. Take it as you will: > As much as I appreciate your perspective and agree with the goals that you, Andy M and Alex share, I am at the same time dismayed that it means we're going to end up essentially with "privileged web experiences" and "unprivileged web experiences" if you take this path. It also means that the fight against Silverlight and Flash essentially comes to a draw and developers have to pick sides (if they haven't already) and "standardize" their own work to one of four choices: either two of the above or, confusingly, HTML-compliant and HTML-incompatible. So while you might be able to do some shiny things into the forceable future, it does seem to me that you're going to wind up creating more work for developers to have to test against and support both HTML variants (not to mention the long history of browser incompatibilities), in which case they might as well just jump the open web standards ship altogether and get in bed with Microsoft or Adobe, given their ability to crank out tools AND formats that rival most of their open alternatives. It seems to me that rather than necessarily abandoning web standards or, as Alex said, "start burning their standards advocacy literature", I suppose I'd like to see how we can begin to commoditize the more attractive aspects of Silverlight and AIR/Flash with open formats and standards. Unfortunately we are up against massive marketing dollars and entrenched positions, but in the end, open always wins. If you're really serious about this, and I think Alex, with his relationship to the Dojo project is in the perfect position to do so, I think the job of folks who have grown disillusioned with the web standards path should begin to develop "community conventions" that can be implemented today, using what leading browsers support (Opera, Firefox and WebKit/Safari) (see [microformats](http://microformats.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), leading this approach, as well as [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)). I think rewarding those browser makers by exploiting the features that they ARE implementing is a good way to go, and I also think that developing rich interface libraries in CSS and Javascript will continue to be important to advancing the state of the "unprivileged web". We've made a great deal of progress in a relatively short amount of time with jQuery and similar libraries that deliver effects previously unthought of in regular web pages... it's just a matter of time before we approach this as a more concerted effort to make web applications compete with their proprietary brethren. With site-specific browser generators like [Todd Ditchendorf's](http://www.ditchnet.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Fluid](http://fluidapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Prism](http://labs.mozilla.com/2007/10/prism/?ref=chrismessina.me) coming out, I think we're also moving much more quickly towards local desktop integration than you'll be able to get out of full-fledged generic browsers. In fact, I'm most hopeful about those kinds of application for the kind of innovation you're talking about. I think I'm just about as fed up as you with the centralized, top-down web standards process. But then again, I never believed in it from the beginning. Your frustrations to me only indicate that the way of old skool, top down bureaucracies have had their day; the way forward is the way of open source and open communities that produce results. And given that we do already have a body of standards that we can build on top of, I do worry that a lot of effort will be wasted paving a new path towards an uncertain future, when there is still so much potential and opportunity to be had with the technologies that are available today but are simply underutilized and have yet to be exploited. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Jeff Croft](http://www2.jeffcroft.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-16 20:48:38 Hey Chris -- thanks for the response (and sorry about that 3000 character limit. I know it's annoying; I run into it myself sometimes!). I generally agree with most of what you have to say. Just to clarify one thing: I am in no way suggesting we abandon the existing standards. Rather, I'm suggesting that browser makers should be encouraged to innovate, using the unobtrusive -renderingengine syntax, *alongside* the existing standards. **[Ian Muir : Geek Extrordinaire » Blog Archive » Let’s have a war?](http://ian.sundermedia.com/index.php/2007/12/17/lets-have-a-war/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-16 21:02:25 \[...\] Chris Messina and others, throw in their various \[...\] **Colin** ¡ 2007-12-16 22:54:34 Chris .. the issue you take on here is an enormous challenge. I have been involved in a startup over the last year, and we build for Firefox, then tweak to work in IE. This is not just ironic, its backwards, when we consider that IE is 80% of the browserspace. Yet I would have it no other way. Building the right way is always the right thing, and right in this case, is properly coded following appropriate principles. The battle will not be won in the debate around standards. People using browsers have no idea about standards. They only know what works and what doesn't. I personally like the direction of OpenID, Oauth, Microformats etc. If the power of those platforms/ capabilities are sufficiently valid people will demand their browser de jour accept those capabilities. So yes, I agree this is not a browser war matter. Its actually a 'people relevance' matter. The debate needs to centre on making OpenID, Oauth, Microformats etc, relevant to average people. This has yet to happen. **[Alex Russell](http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-17 01:55:18 Hey Chris: I want to be pretty clear about something: I’m not suggesting that the W3C is useless or that we don’t need it. What I’m saying as clearly as I can is that it is simply not the place to go for new features. Instead, it’s the place to get existing features which are deployed ironed out and as compatible as possible. Only when technology is deployed and succeeds or fails can we really judge whether or not it’s going to work well (and therefore should be standardized). That’s all I’m suggesting. As for the privileged vs. unprivileged web experience, bring it on. Using the market to prove that something is better is how it should work. Regardless, we already have the unprivileged web experience and we even give it a positive term: graceful degradation. It's how we've evolved the browser stack in the past and it can serve us well again as we struggle to figure out the browser of the future. The web is resilient to changes in both content and clients, and we count on that flexibility to give us things like access to web content from mobile devices. Building better experiences for better clients is how we will drive adoption. Firefox has proven as much via enhancements to chrome, and the conundrum for non-chrome content is that to get similar advances, we must use things that are pre-standardization. Standards compliance never got anyone's heart racing, and that's what's required to get us where we want to be: users saying "I want that" because it's better for them. Regards **Todd** ¡ 2007-12-17 07:10:51 I find the WC3 recent cave-in on adding Theora as the built in video player for HTML5 troubling too. So if a bunch of private corporations can just bully a supposed neutral governing body into doing what they want, what hope is there for things like Oauth, OpenID and microformats? Wither the Web standards indeed. Ref: http://www.thenextlayer.org/node/249 **[Daniel Andrlik](http://www.andrlik.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-17 07:31:11 I share your concerns here. I like what James Bennett [has to say](http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2007/dec/17/standards/?ref=chrismessina.me "The future of web standards") on this issue. It's worth reading. **[Corvida](http://designlmnts.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-17 11:45:44 This is all a very difficult subject and a land-mine if you will. Developers wouldn't have to pick sides if only there were more centralized standards. But I highly doubt that will ever happen. ### Blogger adopts OpenID site-wide URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/blogger-adopts-openid-site-wide/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:34.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2109690479/?ref=chrismessina.me)**Clarification:** The title of this post is a little misleading, as Oxa [pointed out](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/13/blogger-adopts-openid-site-wide/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-97517). Blogger has only enabled OpenID *commenting* site-wide. The author regrets any impression otherwise.In what has to be a positive sign of things to come, Blogger has taken the [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) commenting feature [from beta to live](http://buzz.blogger.com/2007/12/openid-commenting.html?ref=chrismessina.me) in a matter of [two weeks](http://bloggerindraft.blogspot.com/2007/11/new-feature-openid-commenting.html?ref=chrismessina.me). [This is huge](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/499774632?ref=chrismessina.me). With great [progress coming on OAuth Discovery](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2007/12/its-about-oauth.html?ref=chrismessina.me), we're rapidly approaching the plumbing needed to really start to innovate on citizen-centric web services... and social network portability. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Oxa Koba](http://oxakoba.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-14 08:40:57 I think your headline is a little misleading. According to the official explanation posted to my blogger dashboard by the staff, the OpenID feature applies only to commenting. Yes it is out of beta, available on all blogs not just "Blogger Draft". Still it is only enable for commenting and only as an opt-in feature. My issue is mainly that as the blog owner I still cannot login to my Blogger account with OpenID. The Google ID is still required. **[Stephen Paul Weber](http://singpolyma.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-14 09:31:42 It's not opt-in -- it's automatically on for any 'anyone con comment' blogs... which is most of them **[http://openid.aol.com/gvrpython](http://openid.aol.com/gvrpython?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-14 10:54:43 w00t! And I share an office with one of the coders. ### Ruminating on DiSo and the public domain URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/ruminating-on-diso-and-the-public-domain/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:34.000Z There's been some great pickup of the [DiSo Project](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) since [Anne blogged about it on GigaOM](http://gigaom.com/2007/12/11/the-next-social-network-wordpress/?ref=chrismessina.me). I'm not really a fan of early over-hype, but fortunately the reaction so far has been polarized, which is a good thing. It tells me that people care about this idea enough to [sign up](http://groups.google.com/group/diso-project/subscribe?ref=chrismessina.me), and it also means that people are threatened enough by it to defensively write it off without giving it a shot. That's pretty much exactly [where I'd hope to be](http://headrush.typepad.com/creating%5Fpassionate%5Fusers/2005/01/be%5Fbrave.html?ref=chrismessina.me). There are also a number of folks pointing out that this idea has been done before, or is already being worked on, which, if you're familiar with the microformats process, understand the wisdom in [paving well-worn cow paths](http://microformats.org/wiki/process?ref=chrismessina.me#Document%5FCurrent%5FBehavior). In fact, in most cases, as [Tom Conrad](http://tomconrad.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) from [Pandora](http://pandora.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) has said, it's not about giving his listeners 100% of what they want (that's ridiculous), it's about moving from the number of good songs from six to seven out of a set of eight. In other words, most people really don't need a revolution, they just want a little more of what they already have, but with slight, yet appreciable, improvements. Anyway, that's all neither here nor there. I have a bunch of thoughts and not much time to put them down. . . . I've been thinking about mortality a lot lately, stemming from [Marc Orchant's](http://blogs.zdnet.com/Orchant/?ref=chrismessina.me) recent [tragic death](http://us.blognation.com/2007/12/03/marc-orchant-suffers-massive-coronary/?ref=chrismessina.me) and Dave Winer's [follow up post](http://www.scripting.com/stories/2007/12/10/futuresafeArchives.html?ref=chrismessina.me), capped off with thinking about [open data formats, permanence and general digital longevity](http://tantek.com/log/2006/06.html?ref=chrismessina.me#d17t2231) (when I die, what happens to my digital legacy? my OpenID?, etc). [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2107518431/?ref=chrismessina.me)Meanwhile, and on a happier note, I had the [fortunate occasion](http://flickr.com/photos/missrogue/2098608111/?ref=chrismessina.me) to partake in the [arrival of new life](http://twitter.com/tempo/statuses/479067102?ref=chrismessina.me), something that, as an [uncle of \~17 various nieces and nephews](http://flickr.com/photos/missrogue/338752238/?ref=chrismessina.me), I have some experience with. In any case, these two dichotomies have been pinging around my brain like marbles in a jar for the past couple days, perhaps bringing some things into perspective. . . . Meanwhile, back in the Bubble, I've been watching "open" become the new [bastard child of industry](http://mobhappy.com/blog1/2007/12/11/is-all-this-talk-of-open-just-lip-service/?ref=chrismessina.me), its meaning stripped, its bite muzzled. The old corporate allergy to all things open has found a vaccine. And it's frustrating. Muddled up in between these thoughts on openness, permanence, and on putting my life to some good use, I started thinking about [the work that I do](http://citizenagency.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), and the work that we, as technologists do. And I think that term shallow now, especially in indicating my humanist tendencies. I don't want to *just* be someone who is technologically literate and whose job it is to advise people about how to be more successful in applying its appropriate use. I want to create culture; *I want to build civilization!* And so, to that end, I've been mulling over imposing a mandate on the DiSo Project that forces all contributions to be released into the public domain. Now, there are two possible routes to this end. The first is to use a license compatible with [Andrius Kulikauskas](http://www.ms.lt/?ref=chrismessina.me)' [Ethical Public Domain](http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) project. The second is to follow the microformats approach, and use the [Creative Commons Public Domain Dedication](http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/?ref=chrismessina.me). While I need to do more research into this topic, I've so far been told (by one source) that the public domain exists in murky legal territory and that perhaps using the [Apache license](http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0?ref=chrismessina.me) might make more sense. But I'm not sure. In pursuing clarity on this matter, my goals are fairly simple, and somewhat defiant. For one thing, and speaking from experience, I think that the IPR process for both [OpenID](http://wiki.openid.net/Formal%5FIPR%5FPolicy?ref=chrismessina.me) and for [OAuth](https://agree2.com/declarations/oauth-non-assertion-covenant?ref=chrismessina.me) were wasteful efforts and demeaning to those involved. Admittedly, the IPR process is a practical reality that can't be avoided, given the litigious way business is conducted today. Nor do I disparage those who were involved in the process, who were on the whole reasonable and quite rational; I only lament that we had to take valuable time to work out these agreements at all (I'm still waiting on Yahoo to sign the IPR agreement for OAuth, by the way). As such, by denying the creation of any potential IP that could be attached to the DiSo Project, I am effectively avoiding the need to later make promises that assert that no one will sue anyone else for actually using the technology that we co-create. So that's one. Second, [Facebook's "open" platform](http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=60&ref=chrismessina.me) and Google's "[open](http://tantek.com/log/2007/11.html?ref=chrismessina.me#d01t2335)" OpenSocial systems diminish the usefulness of calling something "open". As far as I'm concerned, this calls for the nuclear option: from this point forward, I can't see how anyone can call something truly open without resorting to placing the work firmly in the public domain. Otherwise, you can't be sure and you can't trust it to be without subsequent encumbrances. I'm hopeful about projects like [Shindig](http://rollerweblogger.org/roller/entry/shindig%5Fopen%5Fsource%5Fimplementation%5Fof?ref=chrismessina.me) that call themselves "open source" and are able to be sponsored by stringent organizations like the Apache foundation. But these projects are few and far between, and, should they grow to any size or achieve material success, inevitably they end up having to centralize, and the "System" (yes, the one with the big *es*) ends up channeling them down a path of crystallization, typically leading to the establishment of archaic legal institutions or foundations, predicated on being "host" for the project's auto-created intellectual property, like trademarks or copyrights. In my naive view of the public domain, it seems to me that this situation can be avoided. We did it (and continue to prove out the model) with [BarCamp](http://barcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) — even if the [Community Mark designation](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/14/the-case-for-community-marks/?ref=chrismessina.me) still seems onerous to me. And beyond the legal context of this project, I simply don't want to have to answer to anyone questioning why I or anyone else might be involved in this project. Certainly there's money to be had here and there, and it's unavoidable and not altogether a bad thing; there's also more than enough of it to go around in the world (it's the lack of *re-circulation* that should be the concern, not what people are working on or why). In terms of my interests, I never start a project with aspirations for control or domination; instead I want to work with intelligent and passionate people — and, insomuch as I am able, enable other people to pursue their passions, demonstrating, perhaps, what Craig Newmark calls [nerd values](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/08/15/NEWMARK.TMP&ref=chrismessina.me). So if no one (and everyone) can own the work that we're creating, then the only reason to be involved in this particular *instance* of the project is because of the *experience*, and because of the *people* involved, and because there's something *rewarding* or *interesting* about the problems being tackled, and that their resolution holds some meaning or secondary value for the participants involved. I can't say that this work (or anything else that I do) will have any widespread consequences or effects. That's hardly the point. Instead, I want to devote myself to working with good people, who care about what they do, who hold out some hope and see validity in the existence of their peers, who crave challenge, and who feel accomplished when others share in the glory of achievement. I guess when you get older and join the "adult world" you have to justify a lot more to yourself and to others. It's a lot harder to peel off the posture of defensiveness and disbelief that come with age than to allow yourself to respond with excitement, with hope, with incredulity and wonder. But I guess I'm not so much interested in that kind of "adult world" and I guess, too, that I'd rather [give all my work away](http://www.ms.lt/en/workingopenly/givingaway.html?ref=chrismessina.me) than risk getting caught up in the pettiness that pervades so much of the good that is being done, and that still needs to be done, in all the many myriad opportunities that surround us. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[James D Kirk](http://jamesdkirk.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 01:54:31 I'll have to read that article "An Economy for Giving Everything Away" since the abstract really grabbed my attention *(but given that it's now 2:45am my time...)*Am thinking that the public domain concepts you're referring to are fine for DiSo (and likely many other things as well), and doesn't it just put the onus on our creative, constructive selves to find ways to **take that which is "open" and free to all and still find ways to benefit from them?** (I'm particularly thinking of financial benefits as I write this.) If this isn't of interest to someone, they don't have to work at "making a living" using something that is so widely spread to the community, right? DiSo is first using WordPress as its foundation. Perfect example. I have pretty close to the same core code running a whole bunch of websites that WP.com uses to host over a million. **Is their opportunity any better than mine? I don't believe so.** And more to it, I wouldn't have the same opportunity with a Moveable Type (well, until recently anyway). One just has to get out of the competitive mind and become more creative and constructive with the resources available to them. (At least that's what my last fortune cookie stated! ;) ) **[Alfonso Guerra](http://apokalypsesoftware.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 03:30:55 Public Domain is the wrong vehicle to retain a fully open system. That's akin to calling The Wild West a Utopia because there's no crime. To protect the principles and the values of the community, you'll have to mandate that IP is assigned to some (hopefully shared) legal entity which would have standing to protect it. Anything entered into the Public Domain cannot be mandated by anyone, and no one will be in a position to dictate how it's used. As cumbersome and wasteful as you may feel the IPR may be, it is a vital component to ensuring the quality of the community going forward. It's the cleanroom that permits participants to trust in the quality of the work, and their standing with regards to one another. Once the trust component is in effect, the community can be more open and accepting of others. It's in systems which lack that trust, and the rigor of demonstrating trust-worthiness that the breakdowns occur and abuse is rampant (witness spam and malware). **[microformats.dk » Projekt DiSO](http://www.microformats.dk/2007/12/13/projekt-diso/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 03:36:25 \[...\] Messina (2007) - Ruminating on DiSo and the public domain Dette indlĂŚg var skrevet af Søren Johannessen, skrevet den 13\. december 2007 kl. 09:53, smidt \[...\] **[Messina: I’d Rather Build Culture, Not Consult!](http://innonate.com/2007/12/13/messina-id-rather-build-culture-not-consult/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 07:24:29 \[...\] - Chris Messina in his post “Ruminating on DiSo and the Public Domain“ \[...\] **[Assaf](http://labnotes.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 09:18:23 If you're working on a specification, the problem is not copyright (you can always rewrite it in your own words), or ideas (can't be protected), but patents. And you need to make sure contributions are not made in support of a patent. Software licenses like the ASL won't protect you from patents either, so you do need to look into IPR policies. **[Chris Anderson](http://jchris.mfdz.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 11:15:03 I'm not a license expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm afraid Public Domain has no aspects of share-alike / viral / copyleft. Anyone can make a proprietary derivative of a public domain work, in my understanding. It seems the big advantage to GPL style licenses is that they create a culture of contribution. It is that culture and the people invested in it who will defend the work against enclosure. **[James D Kirk](http://jamesdkirk.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 13:34:15 Chris A. is **absolutely correct**. When art had made it into public domain, either by non-renewal or as this article suggests, by design, anyone can make a derivative work and copyright for their own gain. Not sure how I personally feel about these concepts (for instance, I have a book I've been editing, adding legitimate updates and changes that would easily qualify as a derivative work so I can sell online, legally. I like that this is available to me, the "non-creator" of this work as I would not likely have written such a book. But not sure how I would feel if I HAD created that book. Of course, if I had, I would have been sure to renew the copyright when it expired the first time!) So, yeah, from the perspective of this conversation, something of more strength should likely be considered for the protection of the project and the the community using it. **[Tantek](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-15 02:03:49 Great post Chris. It's interesting to see many of the above commenters merely prove your points (re: big es System etc.). A lot of their arguments used to be true, before the Web, before we had strong communities on the Web, with ability to rapidly coordinate and expose those that would abuse open and free culture (whether content, code, process, etc.). It comes down to the simple fact that at this point in history, the open communities based on the Web can be better trusted and relied upon to act more quickly and effectively, than any one so-called legal entity. Or to put it another way, we should minimize the number of such required "legal entity bottlenecks", as each such dependency is a weakness, a vulnerability, a source of possible doubt and distrust. Unfortunately that's the line of reasoning that must be used for a lot of folks, as fear tends to be a stronger motivator in more people than opportunity. It would be much simpler to challenge folks to base their motivations and decisions on opportunity (e.g. what public domain enables) rather than fear (nearly all the reasons given in all the comments above are based on fear, and mostly theoretical fears at that.) However this is quite challenging (though not impossible), as it requires a high level of self-reflection and self-actualization to understand and override the neurological evolutionary legacies present in our brains' amygdala and reptilian complex where fear and resistance to change are based.\[3\] I'll leave you with my summary statement on this topic: Open content cannot be truly open and long lasting unless it is published in open standards. And open standards are not fully open unless they have no restrictions. Viva la public domain! P.S. My first (after driving the voluntary public domain declarations on microformats.org this past July) public actions following these principles was to create the Body Optimization wiki this past November with a requirement upon login\[1\] for all contributions to bereleased into the public domain per the Creative Commons Public Domain License\[2\]. More soon. :) \[1\] https://bodyoptimization.pbwiki.com/FrontPage?login=1 \[2\] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/ \[3\] http://www.buffalostate.edu/orgs/bcp/brainbasics/triune.html **[Tantek](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-02 11:26:06 \>More soon. As promised: [Making open standards as open as possible — required public domain licensing of all microformats wiki contributions](http://microformats.org/blog/2007/12/29/making-open-standards-as-open-as-possible/?ref=chrismessina.me)and [Open as possible means public domain plus a strong community](http://tantek.com/log/2008/01.html?ref=chrismessina.me#d01t1946) ### The inside-out social network URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-inside-out-social-network/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:33.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2100869875/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Anne Zelenka](http://www.annezelenka.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) of [Web Worker Daily](http://www.webworkerdaily.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [GigaOM](http://gigaom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) fame wrote me to ask what I meant by "building a social network with its skin inside out" when I was [describing DiSo](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/06/oauth-10-openid-20-and-up-next-diso/?ref=chrismessina.me), the [project](http://diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) that [Steve Ivy](http://redmonk.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and I (and now [Will Norris](http://willnorris.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) are working on. Since understanding this change that I envision is crucial to the potential *wider* success of DiSo, I thought I'd take a moment and quote my reply about what I see are the benefits of *social network built inside-out*: > The analogy might sound a little gruesome I suppose, but I'm basically making the case for more open systems in an ecosystem, rather than [investing or producing more closed off or siloed systems](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/09/20/stop-building-social-networks/?ref=chrismessina.me). There are a number of reasons for this, many of which I've been blogging about lately. For starters, "citizen centric web services" will arguably be better for people over the long term. We're in the toddler days of that situation now, but think about passports and credit cards:your passport provides proof of *provenance* and allows you to leave home without permanently give up your port of origin (equivalent: logging in to Facebook with your MySpace account to "poke" a friend — why do you need a full Facebook account for that if you're only "visiting"?);your credit/ATM cards are stored value instruments, making it possible for you to make transactions without cash, and with great convenience. In addition, while you *should* choose your bank wisely, you're always able to withdraw your funds and move to a new bank if you want. This portability creates choice and competition in the marketplace and benefits consumers.It's my contention that, over a long enough time horizon, a similar situation in social networks will be better for the users of those networks, and that as reputation becomes portable and discoverable, who you choose to be your identity provider will matter. This is a significant change from the kind of temporariness ascribed by some social network users to their accounts today (see [danah boyd](http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2007/01/01/ephemeral%5Fprofi.html?ref=chrismessina.me)). Anyway, I'm starting with WordPress because it already has some of the building blocks in place. I also recognize that, as a white male with privilege, I can be less concerned about my privacy in the short term to prove out this model, and then, if it works, build in strong cross-silo privacy controls later on. (Why do I make this point? Well, because the network that might work for me isn't one that will necessarily work for everyone, and so identifying this fact right now will hopefully help to reveal and prevent embedding any assumptions being built into the privacy and relationships model early on.) Again, we're in the beginning of all this now and there'll be plenty of ill-informed people crying wolf about not wanting to join their accounts, or have unified reputation and so on, but that's normal during the course of an inversion of norms. For some time to come, it'll be optional whether you want to play along of course, but once people witness and come to realize the benefits and power of portable social capital, their tune might change. But, as Tara pointed out to me today, the arguments for data portability thus far seem predicated on the wrong value statement. Data portability in and of itself is simply not interesting; keeping track of stuff *in one place* is hard enough as it is, let alone trying to pass it between services or manage it all ourselves, on our own meager hard drives. We need instead to frame the discussion in terms of *real-world benefits for regular people* over the situation that we have today and in terms of economics that people in companies who might invest in these technologies can understand, and can translate into benefits for both their customers *and* for their bottom lines. I hate to put it in such bleak terms, but I've learned a bit since I embarked on a larger personal campaign to build technology that is firmly in the service of people (it's a long process, believe me). What developers and technologists seem to want at this point in time is the ability to own and extract their data from web services to the end of achieving [ultimate libertarian nirvana](http://fourstarters.com/2007/12/10/federating-social-networks-review/?ref=chrismessina.me). While I am sympathetic to these goals and see them as the way to arriving at a better future, I also think that we must account for those folks for whom Facebook represents a clean and orderly experience *worth* the exchange of their personal data for an experience that isn't confounding or alienating and gives them (at least the perception) of strong privacy controls. And so whatever solutions we develop, I think the objective should not be to obviate Facebook or MySpace, but to build systems and to craft technologies that will benefit and make such sites *more* sustainable and profitable, but *only if* they adopt the best practices and ideals of openness, individual choice and freedom of mobility. As we architect this technology — keeping in mind that we are writing in code what believe should be the rights of autonomous citizens of the web — we must also keep in mind the wide diversity of the constituents of the web, that much of this has been debated and discussed by generations before us, and that our opportunity and *ability* to impose our desires and aspirations on the future only grows with our successes in freeing from the restraints that bind them, the current generation of wayward web citizens who have yet to be convinced that the vision we share will actually be an improvement over the way they experience "social networking" today. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Luis Villa](http://tieguy.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-10 13:07:47 *I also think that we must account for those folks for whom Facebook represents a clean and orderly experience worth the exchange of their personal data for an experience that isn’t confounding or alienating and gives them (at least the perception) of strong privacy controls.*I tried to suggest why open networks might be appealing to those folks in my brief essay (for a class) ["voting with your feet and other freedoms."](http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/12/06/voting-with-your-feet-and-other-freedoms/?ref=chrismessina.me) Bottom line: as more and more of our lives get locked up in our social networks, I think (hope?) that more people will understand that protesting and limiting the impacts of those services can only happen if we have the freedom to leave- even if we never use that freedom. But of course, people have said the same about Windows for years... and that hasn't gotten us much of anywhere. **[Stephane Daury](http://tekartist.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-10 21:01:10 In regards to the windows analogy, I wouldn't lose hope on that note. Think of the number of web sites now supporting open web standards over just Win/IE thanks the rise in Firefox and Safari users. And vice versa. Or how banks adapted to the fact that people want to easily transfer funds from one institution to another, like with the now widespread email money transfer. I'd say these are encouraging signs in regards to how much efforts will have to be made to spread the word to the average user and most businesses. Not effortless, but certainly motivating. **[Freedom to the people (part 2) « Alexander van Elsas’s Weblog on new media & technologies and their effect on social behavior](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/freedom-to-the-people-part-2/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-11 06:06:07 \[...\] like? What benefits should it address? Difficult questions with difficult answers. Chris Messina points this out very well when he says: We need instead to frame the discussion in terms of real-world benefits for regular \[...\] **[Anne Truitt Zelenka » links for 2007-12-11](http://www.annezelenka.com/2007/12/links-for-2007-12-11?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-11 07:27:48 \[...\] The inside-out social network | FactoryCity More from Chris Messina on DISO in response to my question. Interesting stuff. (tags: diso social networking social-graph open) \[...\] **[Redes sociales abiertas: OpenID, OAuth y DiSo « TIDDER](http://hablador.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/redes-sociales-abiertas-openid-oauth-y-diso/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-11 18:49:20 \[...\] siguiente paso parece que lo estĂĄ dando DiSo (Distributed Social), un prototipo de red social distribuĂ­da que hace ĂŠnfasis en la informaciĂłn, la identidad y la \[...\] **[My blog is my social network - - mathewingram.com/work](http://www.mathewingram.com/work/2007/12/12/my-blog-is-my-social-network/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 05:55:05 \[...\] Anne Zelenka has an interesting post up at GigaOm about the latest venture from Chris Messina, also known as Factory Joe or Mr. Tara Hunt. It’s an attempt to roll a kind of social-networking architecture into Wordpress, one of the most popular blogging platforms around and the one I usually recommend to friends who want to start blogging (and the platform I use for this blog and others). Chris has a post about what he calls “the inside-out social network” here. \[...\] **[113.com](http://113.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 08:53:22 Similar to http://buddypress.com ? **[The Next Social Network: WordPress - GigaOM](http://gigaom.com/2007/12/11/the-next-social-network-wordpress/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 10:56:35 \[...\] DiSo, for distributed social networking, that aims to “build a social network with its skin inside out.” DiSo will first look to WordPress as its \[...\] **[NaWeb2](http://naweb2.com/2007/12/glossario/diso-distributed-social-networking/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 13:25:00 **DiSo - distributed social networking...**Social networks are becoming more open, more interconnected, and more distributed. Many of us in the web creation world are embracing and promoting web standards - both client-side and server-side. Microformats, standard apis, and open-source software ... **[WordPress the New Facebook? : Codswallop](http://www.cogniview.com/convert-pdf-to-excel/post/wordpress-the-new-facebook/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 02:55:32 \[...\] started a project called DiSo (”distributed social networking”), to build an “inside out” Social \[...\] **[Seni Thomas](http://www.ad-vocate.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 10:37:11 My 2 cents on how data portability will catalyze the proliferation of micro communities. http://senithomas.wordpress.com/2007/10/31/how-googles-opensocial-will-revolutionize-community-targeting/ **[Library clips :: Blogosphere as a distributed social network :: December :: 2007](http://libraryclips.blogsome.com/2007/12/14/blogosphere-as-a-distributed-social-network/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 17:34:15 \[...\] movement is gaining momentum with the DiSo \[...\] **[Folletto Malefico](http://im.digitalhymn.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-14 07:47:41 Hi Chris, a few months ago I've started to put together a concept called Trustlet, that is... quite the same idea as DiSo, I think. It starts from social networking in social sciences and tries to adapt the idea (not the "social network site") to a possible distributed (P2P) infrastructure. The building blocks of Trustlet are: 1\. Distributed. De-centralized, with many "identity peers" connecting. 2\. PUSH or PUSH-like information propagation, to be paired with the existing PULL, in order to bring speed to the platform. 3\. Define a protocol and an application, initially a WordPress Plugin and then standalone (where WP would be a plugin...). 4\. Trust. This is quite generic, we didn't di in it too much yet, but I think that it's important to enable a way to propagate trust within this kind of network, in a form both simple and without social backslashes. The problem? We were working in italian. :P How I/we could join the DiSo project? :) **[Tranpalitu » Blog Archive » Wordpress base de una Red Social Abierta](http://www.tranpalitu.com/2007/12/15/wordpress-base-de-una-red-social-abierta/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-15 07:18:51 \[...\] competitvidad entre los distintos proveedores de este tipo de aplicaciones. Hay un excelente post FactoryCity al \[...\] **[Open Ideas Sharing » Blog Archive » Some one share the same idea with me…](http://idea.robertmao.com/2007/12/16/some-one-share-the-same-idea-with-me/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-16 16:11:38 \[...\] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/10/the-inside-out-social-network/ \[...\] **[DiSo great for business: the case for advertising @ Webcracy](http://webcracy.org/diso/diso-great-for-business-the-case-for-advertising/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-30 16:59:54 \[...\] blogging software to quickly come up with the first results. There’s more about this here, here and on \[...\] **[mm222: Social networks — Encyclopedic, Careeric, Blogic « Left-handed Complement](http://mudge.essoenn.com/2007/12/14/mm222-social-networks-encyclopedic-careeric-blogic/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-01 12:30:22 \[...\] DiSo, for distributed social networking, that aims to “build a social network with its skin inside out.” DiSo will first look to WordPress as its \[...\] **[Social Networking Via Wordpress, Moveable Type and (gasp) in Person! | BeatBlogging.Org](http://beatblogging.org/2007/12/12/social-networking-via-wordpress-moveable-type-and-gasp-in-person/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-17 13:43:31 \[...\] has a good introduction to a proposal from Chris Messina to turn Wordpress into an open social network he calls DiSo. He calls the project that he is working on with Steve Ivy and Will Norris a \[...\] ### My OpenID Shitlist, Hitlist and Wishlist for 2008 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/my-openid-shitlist-hitlist-and-wishlist-for-2008/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:52.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2096218019/?ref=chrismessina.me)**Update:** I've posted an [update to these lists](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/02/15/an-update-to-my-my-openid-shitlist-hitlist-and-wishlist/?ref=chrismessina.me), giving props to Yahoo, Google, PBWiki and Drupal for embracing OpenID.I believe in the power of community to drive change, and I believe that peer pressure can be a great motivator. I also believe that shaming can be an equally powerful motivator, if used lovingly and when an "out" is provided. In this case, that "out" is adding support for [*consuming*](http://www.plaxo.com/api/openid%5Frecipe?ref=chrismessina.me) [OpenIDs](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), not just being an [identity provider](http://openid.net/get/?ref=chrismessina.me). With that in mind, I thought I'd throw out my **OpenID Shitlist, Hitlist and Wishlist** with the hope that a little sunlight might cause the previously planted seeds to finally sprout. Since [OpenID 2.0 is now out](http://openid.net/2007/12/05/openid-2%5F0-final-ly/?ref=chrismessina.me), these folks really have very little excuse not to get on board and make this happen (limited developer resources notwithstanding). So, without further ado: ### My Shitlist [Last February](http://www.futureofwebapps.com/pastevents.html?ref=chrismessina.me), at the [Future of Web Apps in London](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/117839/?ref=chrismessina.me), there was an orgy of OpenID announcements. The point of my Shitlist is to publicly shame folks who have previously promised (or strongly indicated an intent) to adopt and add support for OpenID but who have failed, thus far, to do so. I invite them to redeem themselves by making good on their promises. I won't hold it against them, but hey, it's their word on the line. - [**Digg.com**](http://digg.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). I'd consider myself personal friends with the Digg folks. I like [Daniel](http://deltatangobravo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Kevin](http://kevinrose.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Owen](http://digg.com/users/willin?ref=chrismessina.me). I think they do great work and that Digg is one of the most influential synaptic centers of the net. But Digg tops my shitlist because of a very important 10 seconds of speech that Kevin offered on stage, and which was covered by [Om](http://gigaom.com/2007/02/20/digg-to-support-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [TechCrunch](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/02/20/kevin-rose-at-fowa-digg-adopts-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me). He [said](http://homedir-b.libsyn.com/podcasts/ac6d56dbe077ec4bf01cf83171144bfd/45fb2c3e/carsonsystems/Kevin%5FRose%5F2007.mp3?ref=chrismessina.me), and I quote: And then we also want to announce today, uh, support for OpenID. So we will be, uh, rolling out OpenID here in the next few months. That's gunna be cool. [Listen to it yourself](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/Kevin%5FRose%5F2007.mp3?ref=chrismessina.me). Did this ever happen? Nu uh. Still waiting. Hmmph! - [**NetVibes**](http://netvibes.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). NetVibes remains one of the more innovative, more "[open source like](http://dev.netvibes.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)" rich internet desktops out there. [Tariq](http://twitter.com/tariqkrim?ref=chrismessina.me)'s a friend. But, like Digg, [when you make promises](http://adactio.com/journal/1261/?ref=chrismessina.me) (scroll down to **Tariq Krim**) to do something and months and months later you haven't made good on your word, well, you end up in my shitlist. - [**Last.fm**](http://last.fm/?ref=chrismessina.me). Now, I'm going out on a limb here. I have a strong recollection that Last.fm was the third company to promise OpenID support at FOWA, but for the life of me, I can hardly [find a reference](http://blog.dtelepathy.com/social-networking/open-your-is-and-pay-attention?ref=chrismessina.me) (besides this: "So what was the buzz at this years FOWA London? Two things resonated to me more than anything in the conference. OpenID and attention data. All of the key players from digg to Netvibes, Last.FM to Arrington touched on, commented or made announcements in these arenas." — hat tip to [JP](http://http//www.confusedofcalcutta.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)), and in the [recording of their session](http://media.libsyn.com/media/carsonsystems/Matthew%5FOgle%5Fand%5FAnil%5FBawa%5FCavia.mp3?ref=chrismessina.me), they make nary a mention. Now, I'm pretty sure they said something about it, but I don't have proof. Last.fm needs OpenID regardless, so if someone can backup or discredit my memory, I'm happy to move them to a more appropriate list. - [**PBWiki**](http://pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). I'm a fan of [PBWiki](http://pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), the hosted wiki service. They're a good friend to the [BarCamp](http://barcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Twitter communities](http://twitter.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and are my first choice when I need a wiki and don't want the hassle of setting up and maintaining my own. The oldest email I could find when I first approached David, Nathan and Ramit with a request to support OpenID was July 30, 2006\. I've badgered them consistently since then, receiving various assurances that they'd work on it. And without directly calling bullshit, I do wonder why their own [Auth API](http://api.pbwiki.com/AuthApi?ref=chrismessina.me) hasn't been made to be OpenID compliant when there have been so many other significant improvements made. I know that nerds aren't their top priority (nor their biggest money-makers by a long shot) but maybe we can hack it in at the next [SHDH](http://shdh.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)? - [**MyBlogLog**](http://mybloglog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). I suppose things change when you get absorbed by a massive corporation that [requires a consistent terms of service](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6316761.stm?ref=chrismessina.me). Or else it seems plausible that the [early indications](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2007-05-10/mybloglog-about-to-support-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) of [support for OpenID](http://sleepyblogger.com/?p=620&ref=chrismessina.me) might have blossomed into full fledged support. Alas, it was not to be. - [**Technorati**](http://technorati.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). In October of 2006, Technorati [announced support for blog claiming with OpenID](http://technorati.com/weblog/2006/10/144.html?ref=chrismessina.me). They also [became an OpenID provider](http://technorati.com/weblog/2006/12/228.html?ref=chrismessina.me). So technically, they don't deserve a full shaming. However, it's lame that they allow you to claim your blog if it's an OpenID, but for reasons that confound me, don't let you actually sign in to Technorati using the same OpenID. This seems ludicrous to me and frankly, I expect more from Technorati. (And can I point out that it's a bad sign that when I search your blog for OpenID using *your* search engine, [nothing comes up](http://technorati.com/search/openid?from=http://technorati.com/weblog/&ref=chrismessina.me)? Huzzah!) - [**Wikipedia**](http://en.wikipedia.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). Well, everyone loves Wikipedia right (that's an uncorroborated generalization)? Well, they still belong on my shitlist. Wikipedia said [they'd support it](http://lists.danga.com/pipermail/yadis/2006-June/002613.html?ref=chrismessina.me) in a [Google Video](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7747790812939045407&q=wikipedia&ref=chrismessina.me) as early as [June of 2006](http://blog.claimid.com/2006/06/wikipedia-is-planning-to-support-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me). They might be able to [define the protocol](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID?ref=chrismessina.me), but they certainly don't support it. (*Reprieve*: open source to the rescue! [Evan Prodromou](http://evan.prodromou.name/?ref=chrismessina.me) wrote the [OpenID extension for Mediawiki](http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:OpenID?ref=chrismessina.me). Now Wikipedia simply needs to adopt it!) ### Hitlist With the shitlist out of the way, I can get on to those folks who haven't necessary made promises before, but are ripe candidates to be lobbied to add support for OpenID. - [**Satisfaction**](http://getsatisfaction.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Satisfaction has long since [planned on offering OpenID](http://getsatisfaction.com/satisfaction/topics/how%5Fabout%5Fsupport%5Ffor%5Fopenid%5Fin%5Fsatisfaction%5Funlimited?ref=chrismessina.me) (and more recently OAuth) and they tell me that it's coming soon. With co-founders (and my friends!) [Thor](http://thormuller.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Amy](http://mommybrain.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) recently getting into a new startup they've named [Tesla Jane](http://twitter.com/tempo/statuses/479067102?ref=chrismessina.me), I think I can be patient for a while longer. ;) - [**Twitter**](http://twitter.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). If you're aware of the [backstory of OAuth](http://oauth.net/about/?ref=chrismessina.me), you'll know that it was my advocacy of [OpenID for Twitter](http://jyte.com/cl/twitter-should-support-openid?ref=chrismessina.me) that revealed the need for a delegated authentication protocol that was compatible with OpenID. And, now that [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) has gone 1.0 (and while we're waiting for Twitter to roll out [support](http://twitter.com/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me) for the final spec) it'd be great to also see movement on the OpenID front. I know you'll get right on that. Heh. - [**Drupal**](http://drupal.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). Bonus points go to Drupal and [James Walker](http://walkah.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) for rolling in [support for OpenID into core for Drupal 6.0](http://walkah.net/blog/walkah/drupal-6-and-openid?ref=chrismessina.me), and maybe we have to wait for the upgrade, but it's too bad that there isn't support on the drupal.org website. Should be an easy fix, and with the brilliant way the community [devoured my recent feedback](http://groups.drupal.org/node/7043?ref=chrismessina.me), I hope that this request is met with equal enthusiasm! - [**Plazes**](http://plazes.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Well, I'm with Tara and am pretty disappointed with where Plazes is today. Felix and Stefan are great, but the new Plazer sucks. It's like they took a bunch of VC and lost focus. Then again, maybe I'm projecting. Anyway, it'd mean something to me if they went ahead and added support for OpenID. Better late than never. - [**Pownce**](http://pownce.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Pownce has been [rocking the portable social network stuff](http://www.leahculver.com/2007/09/03/portable-social-networks-for-django/?ref=chrismessina.me), along with sister-site Digg (yes, the same Digg on my shitlist). The logical next step is for them to [provide OpenID consumption](http://jyte.com/cl/pownce-should-support-openid?ref=chrismessina.me) to make the circle of portability complete! - [**Ning**](http://ning.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Well, they already have [NingID](http://help.ning.com/?cat=59&ref=chrismessina.me), but I really question the wisdom of [proprietary authentication schemes](http://blog.identity20.eu/10.e?ref=chrismessina.me) at this point. I mean, if they're all about niche-social-networks, wouldn't consuming OpenIDs make so much sense to further reduce barriers to outsides coming in to play? - [**LinkedIN**](http://linkedin.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). These guys have been doing some [great work](http://steve.ganz.name/blog/2007/01/linkedin-launches-hresume.html?ref=chrismessina.me) widely [adopting microformats](http://uk.techcrunch.com/?p=81&ref=chrismessina.me) and becoming more social-network-like. People seem to use LinkedIN as an identity aggregation point; shouldn't they also be able to prove that they own a certain LinkedIN profile elsewhere and then [verify their accounts elsewhere by logging in to LinkedIN with their other OpenIDs](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/?p=820&ref=chrismessina.me)? - [**Slideshare**](http://slideshare.net/?ref=chrismessina.me). Given that Slideshare probably has the [greatest collection of OpenID related presentations](http://www.slideshare.net/group/openid?ref=chrismessina.me) on the net, it's kind of a shame that you can't login to the site using the protocol. I know [Rashmi](http://www.rashmisinha.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Jon](http://www.jonathanboutelle.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) have their hands full, but it'd be sweet to see them add support. - [**TripIt**](http://tripit.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). TripIt's awesome. Tara and I did a day of consulting with them and have been constant users ever since. What'd be great is if you could use your OpenID to login between Dopplr and TripIt — it might sound insane to them — but they really are complementary services. Tying my identity between them would save me such a hassle of having to go back and forth between them — and they'd both win! - [**Blip**](http://blip.tv/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Viddler](http://viddler.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [YouTube](http://youtube.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) et al. This might be a pipe dream, but I do think that we could win over Blip and Viddler. YouTube, not so much. But if we lobbied each independent and got one to go, the others might follow... - [**WordPress.com**](http://wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). So WordPress is a funny one. They [serve as an OpenID provider](http://faq.wordpress.com/2007/03/06/what-is-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) but don't currently consume. If you want to enable OpenID consumption, you have to run your own blog (as I do) and use [Will Norris](http://willnorris.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)' [excellent plugin](http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/openid/?ref=chrismessina.me). This isn't necessarily a problem, but with Drupal 6.0 getting support and [Blogger offering limited consumption of OpenIDs](http://bloggerindraft.blogspot.com/2007/11/new-feature-openid-commenting.html?ref=chrismessina.me), I would have hoped that WordPress would have made the move first. - [**Pandora**](http://pandora.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Finally, and this one might just be a vanity request, but I think it'd be cool if Pandora supported OpenID, if only because it would make OpenID seem cooler. ### Wishlist So, with the more likely candidates out of the way, I'd like to turn my attention to what would be big wins for OpenID, but that are an order of magnitude harder to win over, not so much because of technology issues but because of the complexities of terms of service and other business-level issues. In any case, if we see support from these folks for OpenID in 2008, we know we're making serious ground. - [**Facebook**](http://facebook.com/). I [asked the question on Twitter](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/473678392?ref=chrismessina.me) whether people would use Facebook as their OpenID provider if they could. The [overwhelming response was no](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2089797767/?ref=chrismessina.me). Still, of anyone, Facebook could, if they actually rebuilt people's trust and extended the reach of their strong privacy controls with best practice OpenID support, I think it'd be a net positive thing to see Facebook official adopt OpenID. There are already [two](http://apps.facebook.com/openidtogo/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Facebook apps](http://identitu.de/?ref=chrismessina.me) that enable it, so clearly *someone's* interested! - [**Yahoo**](http://yahoo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and its various properties: [**Flickr**](http://flickr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)**,** [**Delicious**](http://delicious.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)**,** [**Upcoming**](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). I know they're interested, but it will take more than interest and developer intentions to make this one happen. If Yahoo gets on board, game over man, cat's in the bag. - [**Google**](http://google.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). With their enthusiasm for [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and the recognition of the problem of widespread [password scraping](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1425117598/?ref=chrismessina.me), I think Google is realizing that their avoidance of OpenID is *not* paying off. With Blogger toying with support for OpenID, I think (hope!) that's it's only a matter of time. - [**Microsoft**](http://microsoft.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Well, [Bill already promised](http://www.sixapart.com/about/news/2007/02/microsoft%5Fsuppo.html?ref=chrismessina.me). And they've even [shipped code](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2007-11-30/google-and-microsoft-support-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me), even if it's [kind of a weird approach](http://www.inkblotpassword.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Like most brushes with the embrace of openness, Microsoft is probably at war with itself once again, on the one hand having elements within that want to do the right thing and on the other, for some reason, being heavily influence by holdouts from the evil empire. We'll see what comes of this, but I'm not holding my breath, even if [InfoCard](http://netmesh.info/jernst/Digital%5FIdentity/what-is-msft-infocard.html?ref=chrismessina.me) is the right interface metaphor for OpenID. - [**Mozilla**](http://mozilla.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). I don't know if you noticed, but Mozilla has quite a few properties strewn about. Practically every week there's a new property launched to promote some new campaign, not to mention all the myriad community sites that crop up (i.e. [**UserStyles.org**](http://userstyles.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), thankfully an OpenID consumer!). In leiu of a top-down single sign-on solution, why not just support OpenID and get it over with and enable portable reputation within the Mozilla universe? And — once you do that — maybe start looking at integrating support into Firefox, as I [asked earlier this year](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/05/10/thoughts-on-mozilla/?ref=chrismessina.me)? - [**Trac/SVN**](http://subversion.tigris.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). With OAuth, support for OpenID on the command line becomes much more feasible, even if there's little support today. Imagine being able to use your OpenID credentials to login to *any* SVN repository. Being able to federate whitelists of identifiers would make cross-collaboration much more facile and I think would be a boon to independent open source development. - [**MySpace**](http://myspace.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [**Hi-5**](http://hi5.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [**Bebo**](http://bebo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [**Orkut**](http://orkut.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) et al. I mean, we now know that [OpenSocial](http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/?ref=chrismessina.me) is basically an overhyped widget distribution platform, but that doesn't mean that it won't turn into something more. Eventually the limits of siloed identities are going to run up against the cross-pollinating design of OpenSocial and logging in to Bebo with your MySpace account is not only going to make sense, but will be expected, just like I can send email from my Gmail account to Hotmail and Yahoo email users. [OpenID 2.0](http://blogs.gnome.org/jamesh/2007/10/23/openid-20/?ref=chrismessina.me), with [directed identity](http://lists.danga.com/pipermail/yadis/2006-February/002138.html?ref=chrismessina.me), is perfectly suited to handle this particular use case and I'd love to see the early OpenSocial partners get on board sooner than later. - [**Adobe**](http://adobe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Not even sure why this one's in the list, but so long as I'm thinking big, it'd be sweet to see support not only on Adobe's site for OpenID, but also in Flash apps (which I think would possibly require OAuth). Adobe has [Adobe IDs](http://store.adobe.com/store/general/accountquestions.jhtml?ref=chrismessina.me) already, and, as I suggested before, proprietary protocols for identity on the web make less and less sense. - [**TechCrunch**](http://techcrunch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). This one's for fun. I know Mike's a fan of big ideas and making things better, so it seems strange that, given his use of WordPress, he hasn't demanded support for OpenID commenting yet. Perhaps we can dream. --- Now that I've got those lists out of the way, I wanted to give summary props to folks who have *already* gone ahead and implemented OpenID (this is not an exhaustive list; check out the [OpenID Directory](http://openiddirectory.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) for more): - [**Ma.gnolia**](http://ma.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://ma.gnolia.com/blog/2006/11/30/sign-in-your-way?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**ClaimID**](http://claimid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://blog.claimid.com/2006/06/open-registration-now-at-claimid-with-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**iusethis**](http://osx.iusethis.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://blog.iusethis.com/iusethis-now-supports-openid-for-authentication/?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**Basecamp**](http://basecamphq.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/479-basecamp-gets-openid-and-open-bar?ref=chrismessina.me), [2](http://www.37signals.com/openid/basecamp?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**Dopplr**](http://dopplr.com/login/openid?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://blog.dopplr.com/index.php/2007/05/20/experimental-openid-support/?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**AOL**](http://openid.aol.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://dev.aol.com/aol-and-63-million-openids?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**Six Apart**](http://sixapart.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://brad.livejournal.com/2226738.html?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**JanRain**](http://janrain.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)/[**Pibb**](http://pibb.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) - [**Iconbuffet**](http://iconbuffet.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/03/09/iconbuffet-and-shopify-add-support-for-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**Shopify**](http://shopify.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://blog.jadedpixel.com/2007/3/8/openid-support?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**Plaxo**](http://plaxo.com/openid?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://www.plaxo.com/api/openid%5Frecipe?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**Blinksale**](http://blinksale.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://www.blinksale.com/blog/news%5Fupdates/102-openid?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**SmugMug**](http://smugmug.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/2007/02/23/smugmug-embraces-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me), [2](http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/2007/02/23/new-features-february-23rd-2007?ref=chrismessina.me)) - [**Wikitravel**](http://wikitravel.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([1](http://www.techwandering.com/2007/10/19/log-into-openid-sites-using-your-own-url/?ref=chrismessina.me)) Make sure to stop by these folks' sites and try out their support for OpenID. Heck, they've pioneered the way forward, might as well both give them some patronage and see what user experience lessons can be had from their implementations. And, this is by no means a finished list. It's just a start. If you've got your own Shitlist, Hotlist and Wishlists, please do share them. Not only have I probably missed some folks (Amazon anyone?), but there are probably services and sites more dear to your hearts that should be embracing citizen-centric web protocols that I don't even know about yet. So, let me know what you think and if you want to start doing some lobbying, the best place to start is with the [OpenID site itself](http://openid.net/discuss/?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Ben Gold](http://bengold.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 02:09:02 YOU FORGOT ZOOOMR!!!! **[Can You Shame a Company Into Supporting OpenID?  »TechAddress](http://www.techaddress.com/2007/12/09/can-you-shame-a-company-into-supporting-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 05:32:08 \[...\] OpenID 2.0 last week along a massive video recap from the Internet Identity Workshop. This morning, Chris Messina, one of the loudest about OpenID has created his list of sh\*\*, hit and wish for \[...\] **[Russ Garrett\`](http://www.last.fm/user/Russ?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 05:53:17 I'm fairly sure we didn't promise OpenID support at FOWA. Having said that, provider support has been there and nearly finished for ages. I'll see if I can update that for 2.0 and release it when I have a few moments. RP support, by all accounts, is a little further off. **[Stephane Daury](http://tekartist.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 06:10:22 There was a CodeFest in Montreal revolving around adding or improving OpenID support in some of the projects you mentioned last September. I missed the event, but I know that good things came out of it. :-) http://wiki.facil.qc.ca/CodeFest2007 **[børge](http://forteller.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 06:27:29 Also the fantastic photo sharing site (with a lot in common with Flickr, only much better in many regards) [ipernity](http://ipernity.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) has support for OpenID. I switched from Flickr to ipernity a while back and haven't looked back. You should check it out! **[børge](http://forteller.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 06:29:41 PS: I was not sent to my OpenID provider when commenting here! **[113.com](http://www.113.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 07:09:05 113.com (China) supports OpenID (two-way) at their January launch. **[Colin Devroe](http://cdevroe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 09:38:27 Chris, you can quote me here: We're working on our API right now, which uses OAuth for application authentication (I've actually just tested this on Friday at the office), and when we get the resources to update our registration / login processes - we'll be adding OpenID. Consider Viddler, "won over". **[David Weekly](http://pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 10:51:48 PBwiki is launching OpenID support in its next major release, which will be in the next few weeks. Why do you put us on your shitlist, just because you've been badgering us about it for a while? ;) (Which is true.) And AuthAPI has nothing to do with OpenID; it's a way for individual wiki owners to delegate authentication to their own webapps, letting them authenticate against their wiki with LDAP, AD, OpenID, retina scans, or whatever else they'd like to code up. Several companies use this for behind-the-firewall single sign on support. But we still love & support you. (And Barcamp. etc.) :) Kisses, -David **[Evan Prodromou](http://evan.prodromou.name/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 11:09:13 You forgot Wikitravel, too. What's with that? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 14:07:55 @Russ: thanks for that. I'd like to see if anyone else who was at FoWA will back up your claim. At this point I'm really not certain, but would like to hold Last.fm out there just a wee bit longer. Awesome to hear about providing OpenIDs, though -- can't wait to see it! @Stephane Daury: Good stuff -- would love to see what concrete solutions came out of it! We need more of those kinds of events! @børge: thanks -- hadn't heard of that. It's interesting that, like Zooomr, it seems to have inherited a great deal straight from Flickr, but added support for other media types. Good to see they're using OpenID at least! As for your issue, not sure what the problem was, but Will Norris' blog picked up your OpenID, so I don't know what happened here...! @Colin: great news! Can't wait to see it! @David: thanks for your comment -- and that's great news! I mostly put you on my shitlist because I know you and because I know you want to support OpenID and I also know that when you release it, I can blog about how PBWiki is even \*more\* awesome since it supports OpenID. PBWiki isn't on a \*general\* shitlist, only on my list of sites that really \*should\* support OpenID, especially since you rely so much on a central PBWiki Identity. As for the PBWiki AuthAPI, you're right, OpenID doesn't directly factor in; perhaps what I should have said is that it'd be cool if you guys supported OAuth. ;) @Evan: Oh yeah...! I'll add you to the list! Sorry dude! At least you got props for the MediaWiki plugin! ;) **[Evan Prodromou](http://evan.prodromou.name/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 17:48:45 My response is here: http://evan.prodromou.name/Journal/18\_Frimaire\_CCXVI -Evan **[links for 2007-12-10](http://www.hyperlinkguerrilla.com/2007/12/10/links-for-2007-12-10/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 21:23:10 \[...\] My OpenID Shitlist, Hitlist and Wishlist for 2008 | FactoryCity Since OpenID 2.0 is now out, these folks really have very little excuse not to get on board and make this happen (limited developer resources notwithstanding). (tags: openid identity) \[...\] **Aiden** ¡ 2007-12-09 23:34:35 I'd add Wrike.com http://www.wrike.com/ to the wish list. It's a totally great project management software, that’s email integrated. It would be so cool, if I could use it with my OpenID. **[poso.dk - om portable sociale netvĂŚrk » OpenID Shitlist, Hitlist and Wishlist for 2008](http://www.poso.dk/2007/12/10/openid-shitlist-hitlist-and-wishlist-for-2008/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-10 00:38:48 \[...\] Listen inkluderer hjemmesider som Digg, Netvibes, Last.FM, PBWiki, Technorati, Wikipedia m.fl. Men tag ikke mine ord for det, lĂŚs selv OpenID Shitlist, Hitlist and Wishlist for 2008\. \[...\] **John McCrea** ¡ 2007-12-10 10:56:47 A good OpenID "naughty or nice" list, Chris! Here's my post on Facebook's ClosedID: http://therealmccrea.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/why-facebook-wasnt-at-the-internet-identity-workshop/ **[Why Facebook wasn’t at the Internet Identity Workshop. (They’re soft-launching “ClosedID”.) « The Real McCrea](http://therealmccrea.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/why-facebook-wasnt-at-the-internet-identity-workshop/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-10 10:58:30 \[...\] And for an update on OpenID see Chris Messina’s recent post. \[...\] **[Scott Kveton · OpenID 2.0 final: What does that mean?](http://kveton.com/blog/2007/12/11/openid-20-final-what-does-that-mean/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-10 18:15:48 \[...\] great. Now what? Adoption is going to be the key. Chris calls out his shit, wish and hitlist for 2008 and he’s dead-on. We’ll get there, but its this type of grassroots evangelism is what \[...\] **[» OpenID 2.0 Fast Wonder Blog](http://fastwonderblog.com/2007/12/10/openid-20/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-10 20:32:34 \[...\] week, the final version of OpenID 2.0 was released. Chris Messina has a great post highlighting those companies who said they would adopt and support OpenID but have \[...\] **[Oxa Koba](http://oxakoba.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-11 14:39:09 Newsvine Mike Davidson [expressed interest](http://mike.newsvine.com/%5Fnews/2007/02/20/578114-digg-to-support-openid?ref=chrismessina.me) publicly back in February 2007\. But Newsvine has fallen silent since then. Another is Virb, who keeps suggesting that new things are on the horizon, but has been stalling for months and was very nearly still-born when they came out of beta, imho. **[Kevin Fox](http://janrain.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-11 20:00:11 Hi Chris, Excellent post, nice to see all these sites listed in one place. If anyone is working to implement OpenID for their site and needs any assistance please let me (JanRain) know. Cheers, Kevin **[Phil Wolff](http://skypejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 10:57:11 There's some momentum at Skype for supporting OpenID. See the https://developer.skype.com/RoadMap/ and https://developer.skype.com/RoadMap/WebLogin for more. No commitments yet, so I don't know which list they belong to. **[Christian Scholz](http://mrtopf.de/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 04:09:10 There is also Plone (http://plone.org) which implemented OpenID this year. I have some ideas on how to improve support there but the basics are there. We now even see more and more Plone based blogs to support it which is cool. **[Kevin Fox](http://janrain.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 13:09:30 Launchpad is also looking at adding OpenID Support: https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/1169 **[Graue](http://oceanbase.org/graue/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-16 18:23:02 I'd really like to see The Pirate Bay and Mininova offer OpenID for uploading torrents -- consider them on my wishlist/hitlist. On my netlabel we're seeding music releases on both sites, and it would make sense to have a link back to us showing the upload is official (rather than some silly nonce account). **[Scott Kveton · OpenID 2007 Prediction Wrap-up](http://kveton.com/blog/2007/12/22/openid-2007-prediction-wrap-up/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-21 16:18:27 \[...\] and Digg that have adopted this. Digg has announced support for it but is still on somebody’s sh\*tlist for not following through. 5\. OpenID Community formalizes: The OpenID community will formalize \[...\] **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » Reply to Paul Montgomery.... why OpenID?](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2007/12/reply-to-paul-montgomery-why-openid?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-27 11:10:37 \[...\] makes you nervous. I agree that its fucked up and I applaud Chris Messina for putting them on his shitlist. But you shouldn’t be surprised. These are not leaders, but followers - and until they \[...\] **[A Good Year for OpenID? at Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2007-12-29/a-good-year-for-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-29 04:38:19 \[...\] announcements to support it earlier this year but haven’t actually implemented it yet (see Chris Messina’s great post about \[...\] **[Oxa Koba](http://oxakoba.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-09 20:59:58 LinkedIN just moved to my shitlist. I realize the original intent of this post was to highlight services that should consume OpenID's, but this is a related issue. With as much conversation as he community has had about "import addressbook" features as anti-patterns, you would think they would be moving away from them. Nope. On January 8th, [Tips for a more productive 2008](http://blog.linkedin.com/blog/2008/01/post-1.html?ref=chrismessina.me) was posted to their company blog. Here is tip #4: > 4\. Import Your Address BookLet us do all the work — in seconds you can see who in your address book is already on LinkedIn and connect with them. **[Announcements, Rumours, Euphoria at Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2008-01-10/announcements-rumours-euphoria/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-10 13:10:44 \[...\] to my initial euphoria but somehow I am reminded of last year when everyone and their mother made announcements to adopt OpenID. Just talk! Also let’s put things in perspective. DataPortability.org is a \[...\] **[Luke Hoersten](http://luke.hoersten.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-21 10:06:43 What openid plugin are you using for wordpress? I've never been able to get any of them working due to php errors etc. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-21 11:12:29 @Luke: Hmm, weird. I'll follow up with you by email! **[Will Digg Embrace Open Standards? at Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2008-01-29/will-digg-embrace-open-standards/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-29 11:45:15 \[...\] Digg also wants to support OpenID. It wanted to join this growing standard one year ago already but nothing happened. It’s unclear if it will become a provider, a relying party, or both. \[...\] **Josh McHugh** ¡ 2008-02-15 12:52:11 6a's TypePad is still not consuming OpenIDs, though. They should catch a little shit for that, no? **David Weekly** ¡ 2008-02-15 17:11:56 PBwiki had better get off the Shitlist now that we've added OpenID support. :) **[Rick Vugteveen](http://vugmedia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-02-25 20:40:54 Nice to see the "shitlist" posted here whittled down a little bit, although I'm not sure if the shaming had anything to do with it. I suggest a follow up post listing all of the OpenID providers who are not consumers. It has to go two ways if OpenID is to truly go mainstream. **[Is OpenID Being Exploited By The Big Internet Companies?](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/03/24/is-openid-being-exploited-by-the-big-internet-companies/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-24 03:28:52 \[...\] the way, Chris Messina has done an excellent job of monitoring these and other companies that have promised OpenID support but are yet to \[...\] **[TechCrunch Japanese ????? » ?????????????OpenID?????????????](http://jp.techcrunch.com/archives/is-openid-being-exploited-by-the-big-internet-companies/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-24 12:07:10 \[...\] ?????Chris Messina????4????OpenID?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Chris? CrunchBase Information OpenID Foundation Information provided by CrunchBase \[...\] **[Identity Woman » On OpenID Progress: Part of a Bigger Challenge of Identity on the Web](http://www.identitywoman.net/?p=744&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-24 14:40:10 \[...\] Mesina puts forward an in depth post articulating a shitlist, hitlist and wishlist around OpenID along with an \[...\] **[steve](http://www.google.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-24 17:45:15 Chris, Just an FYI, Information Cards have nothing to do with OpenID. The Information Card standard is another open standard often used to compliment OpenID provider functionality they address weaknesses in eachother. The most common issues is their resistance to phishing attacks. CardSpace is Microsofts identity selector for Windows. CardSpace and Information Cards may not be used interchangably. **[Earle Martin](http://downlode.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-13 13:01:27 Hi Chris! Thanks for this excellent post. I've been doing a bit of probing recently. You may be interested in [this recent thread on Wikimedia's wikitech-l](http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2008-April/037359.html?ref=chrismessina.me) mailing list where I ask them about the state of their OpenID support, where the answer is "it's possible". There's also [this discussion I started in the lj\_dev community](http://community.livejournal.com/lj%5Fdev/779428.html?ref=chrismessina.me) on LiveJournal to ask the same question. At the time of writing, I haven't received any answer from an employee of theirs. There's also a link in there to a much earlier discussion two years ago(!) where, apparently, promises were made, but nothing happened. LiveJournal implemented partial support for OpenID consuming a long time ago, but never got around to the important part - letting us tie our OpenID and LiveJournal identities together. It seems like they don't care, which is pretty ridiculous for the company that brought us OpenID in the first place. **[BBC joins OpenID Foundation : Journalism.co.uk editors blog](http://blogs.journalism.co.uk/editors/2008/04/24/bbc-joins-openid-foundation/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-24 08:05:23 \[...\] available on bbc.co.uk, Stone explained. “However, at this stage, and wary of being named and shamed here, this doesn’t mean that we are going to immediately be offering OpenIDs on bbc.co.uk or even \[...\] **[David wesson](http://www.davidwesson.weblog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-01 22:39:59 great article Chris still a way to go until we get there see my comments on http://www.davidwesson.weblog.com/ **N** ¡ 2009-03-19 07:02:23 It's ironic that http://wiki.openid.net is hosted by PBWiki which still doesn't act as a relying party for openid auth. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-19 09:05:50 Hmm, yes it does. Take a look: [http://my.pbwiki.com/?p=openid](http://my.pbwiki.com/?p=openid&ref=chrismessina.me) ### Slow, steady and iterative wins the race URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/slow-steady-and-iterative-wins-the-race/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:32.000Z Consider this a cry for anti-agile, anti-hyped solutions for delivering the open social web. I read posts like Erick Schonfeld's "[OpenSocial Still “Not Open for Business”](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/12/06/opensocial-still-not-open-for-business/?ref=chrismessina.me)" and I have two reactions: first, TechCrunch loves to predict the demise or tardiness of stuff but isn't very good at playing soothsayer generally and second: there's really no way Google could have gotten the launch of OpenSocial right. And not like my encouragement will make much difference in this case, but I'm with Google this time: just keep trucking, we'll get there eventually. On the first point, I'd like to jog your memory back to when TechCrunch declared [Ning RIP](http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/01/20/ning-rip/?ref=chrismessina.me) and that [Mozilla's Coop was bad news for Flock](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/04/03/mozilla-to-build-social-features-into-firefox-bad-news-for-flock/?ref=chrismessina.me). Let's just say that both companies are both alive and kicking and looking better than ever. I don't really care to pick on TechCrunch, only point out that it often doesn't really serve much purpose to try to predict the demise of anyone before they're really gone or to lament the latency of some brand new technology that holds great promise but has been released early. On my second reaction, well, I have some sympathies for Google for releasing OpenSocial prematurely, before it was fully baked or before they had parity with the [Facebook platform](http://developers.facebook.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). We suffered a similar coal-raking when [Flock 0.2 launched](http://www.techcrunch.com/2005/10/20/flock-is-launching-publicly-today/?ref=chrismessina.me). It was literally a bunch of extensions and a theme baked on to the husk of Firefox and when people asked "hey, where's the beef?!", well, we had to tell them it was *in the future*. You can imagine how well that went over. The point is, we kept at it. And [after I left](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/03/20/sublimating/?ref=chrismessina.me), Flock kept at it. And so just over two years after we'd released 0.2, [Flock 1.0 came out](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/11/01/flock-10-released/?ref=chrismessina.me), and the reviews, well, were [pretty good](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/10/19/flock-10-beta-released-surprisingly-very-good/?ref=chrismessina.me). Had we not released Flock 0.2 when we did and gone underground, there's a chance we would have had more time to prove out the concepts internally before taking them to a wider and less-forgiving audience and would have avoided the [excessive media buzz](http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2005/tc2005105%5F2789%5Ftc024.htm?ref=chrismessina.me) we unnecessarily spun up and that blew up in our face. I learned from that experience that enthusiasm isn't enough to convince other people to be patient and to believe that you're going to deliver. I also learned the hard way how long *good* technology development actually takes and that typically whatever you come out with first is going to have to be radically changed throughout the testing and iterations of any design process. To look at what Google's attempting to do, I can see the same kind of *awe shucks*, we're changing the world kind of technical development going on. But unlike Flock's early days, there wasn't the same political and economic exposure that I'm amazed to see Google taking on. It's one thing for Facebook, with its youth and bravado, to force its partners to toe whatever line it sets, and to have them build to their specifications. After all, if they don't, their apps won't work. Google's doing something slightly different and more dangerous, in that, not only are they basically building a cross-platform operating system that *runs on the web itself*, but they're also having to balance the needs and passing fancies of multiple business partners involved in actually implementing the specifications to greater or lesser degrees, with varying amounts of attention and wherewithal. Worst of all, between Facebook and Google's platforms, we're quickly heading down a path that leads us to a kind of stratefied *Internet Explorification* of the web that we haven't seen since Firefox 1.0 came on the scene. Already we're seeing [inconsistencies](http://groups.google.com/group/opensocial-api/browse%5Fthread/thread/5956430571f6d30f?ref=chrismessina.me#d601334cb9b68143) between the *existing* OpenSocial containers and it's only going to get worse the more adopters try to work to the [unfinished specs](http://groups.google.com/group/opensocial/web/whats-up-with-opensocial?ref=chrismessina.me). As for Facebook apps, well, for every Facebook app built to run inside of Facebook, that's one less app that, today, can't run on the Open Web and then [God kills another kitten](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/11/God-kills-kitten.jpg/350px-God-kills-kitten.jpg?ref=chrismessina.me). So the moral here is that slow and steady isn't as sexy for the media or VCs but it typically wins races in terms of technology adoption and deployment. So I guess I can't fault Google for releasing a little too early, but it'll be interesting to see if it actually helps them get to a stable OpenSocial sooner. Whether it matters *when* they get there is a matter of debate of course, but in the meantime, hell, there's [plenty for us to do](http://www.diso-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) to improve the *web as it is today* and to [solve some tricky problems](http://iiw.idcommons.net/index.php/FriendsListPortability?ref=chrismessina.me) that neither OpenSocial or Facebook have begun to consider. So, I'm with [Doc](http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/11/25/time-to-write-our-own-rules/?ref=chrismessina.me). And I'm in it for the long haul. I'll keep my eyes open on OpenSocial and frankly hope that it succeeds, but in the end, I'm interested developing on the best citizen-centric technology that's going to shape the next evolution of the web. So long as it's open, it's free, non-proprietary, and inclusive, well, even if it's slow going getting it done, at least we're not treading back in time. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Stephane Daury](http://tekartist.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-07 08:49:39 Although I'm passionate about the subject and feel compelled to comment, I'm can't find anything else to say but "couldn't have said it better myself". Please stop being so articulate, you leave me nothing to add! ;-) **[Tim Walker](http://www.hooversbiz.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-07 12:49:35 Good stuff, Chris. Reminds me of a general thought I've had before: the Web / tech / geek / social-media world could use more patient thinkers in the mold of Warren Buffett. Yeah, we love the fast pace, but we should also be thinking about building for years and decades, not (only) for 10 days / weeks / months of blogospheric reaction. The juncture may be in the minds of smart tech VCs, who understand both "Internet time" and Buffett-like patience plenty well. Keep up the good work. **[Leisa Reichelt](http://disambiguity.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-11 09:28:38 not that I'm disagreeing with the bulk of what you're saying here (in fact, I'm all for anti-hype)... I'm not sure why this is an anti-agile cry though? What did agile do wrong in all of this? Unless you're equating premature release with agile, which shouldn't be the case unless agile is poorly implemented (which, unfortunately, it frequently is). **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-11 09:57:33 @Leisa: Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "agile" necessarily, but my point was really about those folks who misappropriate the "idea" of agile and simply think that because "agile" is in vogue that it means that products somehow take less time to bake. This isn't true and for some reason I think it sets unreasonable expectations. It isn't that projects take less time because agile methods are employed, it simply means that a different, less water-fall-like method is used to arrive at better results. Being agile really doesn't always result in shorter product development or production release cycles. At least given what I've seen (though I was involved with software development 30 years ago either so everything is relative!). **[Searching Da Engines « Every Day I Write The Book](http://danielandjill.wordpress.com/2007/12/07/searching-da-engines/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-27 16:19:33 \[...\] a prime example of the latter. Look at the amount of links to other articles and sources going out from his latest post (which I picked, due to the fact that I actually agree with him \[a rarity!\] and that it covers \[...\] ### OAuth 1.0, OpenID 2.0 and up next: DiSo URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/oauth-10-openid-20-and-up-next-diso/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:37.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1393821245/?ref=chrismessina.me)[IIW 2007b](http://iiw.idcommons.net/index.php/Iiw2007b?ref=chrismessina.me) is now over and with its conclusion, we have two significant accomplishments, both the sum of months of hard work by some very [dedicated](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2007/12/its-here-oauth.html?ref=chrismessina.me) [individuals](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/320477.html?ref=chrismessina.me), in the release of the [OpenID 2.0](http://openid.net/2007/12/05/openid-2%5F0-final-ly/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [OAuth Core 1.0](http://blog.oauth.net/2007/12/04/oauth-core-10-specification-released-at-internet-identity-workshop/?ref=chrismessina.me) specifications. These are two important protocols that serve as a foundational unit for enabling what's being called "user-centric identity", or that I call "citizen-centric identity". With OpenID for identity and authentication and [OAuth for authorizing access](http://www.kaboomerang.com/blog/2007/12/04/oauth-core-10-final-released/?ref=chrismessina.me) to [portions of your private data](http://dev.aol.com/node/741?ref=chrismessina.me), we move ever closer to inverting the silos and providing greater mobility and freedom of choice, restoring the balance in the marketplace and elevating the level of competition by enabling the production of more compelling social applications without requiring the huge investment it takes to recreate even a portion of the available social graph. It means that we now have protocols that can begin to put an end to the habit of treating user's credentials like confetti and instead can offer people the ability to get very specific about they want to share with third parties. And what's most significant here is that these protocols are open and available for *anyone* to implement. You don't have to ask permission; if you want to get involved and do your customers a huge favor, all you have to do is support this work. To put my ... time? ... where my mouth is (I haven't got a whole lot of money to put there) ... [Steve Ivy](http://redmonk.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and I have embarked on a prototype project to build a social network with its skin inside out. We're calling it [DiSo](http://redmonk.net/archives/2007/12/05/diso/?ref=chrismessina.me), or "Distributed Social Networking applications". The emphasis here is on "distributed". In his talk today on [Friends List Portability](http://iiw.idcommons.net/index.php/FriendsListPortability?ref=chrismessina.me), [Joseph Smarr](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) laid out an import set of roles that help to clarify how pieces of applications should be architected: - first of all, people have contact details like email addresses, webpage addresses (URLs), instant messaging handles, phone numbers... and any number of these *identifiers* can be used to discover someone (you do it now when you import your address book to a social networking site). In the citizen-centric model of the world, it's up to individuals to maintain these identifiers, and to be very intentional about who they share their identifiers with - Second, the various sites and social networks you use need to publish your friends and contacts lists in a way that is publicly accessible and is machine readable (fortunately [XFN](http://gmpg.org/xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me) does well there). This doesn't mean that your friends list will be exposed for all the world to see; using OAuth, you can limit access to pieces of your personal social graph, but the point is that it's necessary for social sites to expose, for your reuse, *the identifiers of the people that you know*. With that in mind, Steve and I have started working on a strawman version of this idea by extending my [wp-microformatted-blogroll](http://factorycity.net/projects/wp-microformatted-blogroll/?ref=chrismessina.me) plugin, renaming it to [wp-contactlist](http://diso.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/wp-contactlist/?ref=chrismessina.me) and focusing on how, at a blog level, we can [expose our own contact list](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/roll?ref=chrismessina.me) beyond the realm of any large social network. Besides, this, we're doing some interesting magic that would be useful for [whitelisting](http://simonwillison.net/2007/Jan/22/whitelisting/?ref=chrismessina.me) and cross-functional purposes, like those [proposed by Tim Berners-Lee](http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/206?ref=chrismessina.me). Except our goal is to [implement these ideas in more humane HTML](http://redmonk.net/archives/2007/11/25/making-a-list-whitelisting-with-openid-and-xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me) using WordPress as our delivery vehicle (note that this project is intended to be an example whose concepts should be able to be implemented on any platform). So anyway, we're using Will Norris' [wp-openid plugin](http://willnorris.com/2007/11/wp-openid-20-released?ref=chrismessina.me), and when someone leaves a comment on one of our blogs using OpenID, and whose OpenID happens to be in blogroll already, they'll be listed in our respective [blogroll](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/roll/?ref=chrismessina.me) with an OpenID icon and a class on the link indicating that, not only are they an XFN contact, but that they logged into our blog and claimed their OpenID URL as an identifier. With this functionality in place, we can begin to build add in permissioning functionality where other people might subscribe to my blogroll as a source of trusted commenters or even to find identifiers for people who could be trusted to make typographic edits to blog posts. With the combination of XFN and OpenID, we begin to be able to establish distributed trust meshes, though the exposure of personal social graphs. As more people sign in to my blog with OpenID and leave approved comments, I can migrate them to my public blogroll, allowing others to benefit from the work I've done evaluating whether a given identifier might be a spam emitter. Over time, my reliability in selecting and promoting trustworthy identifiers becomes a source of social capital accrual and you'll *want* to get on my list, demonstrating the value of playing the role of identity provider more widely. This will lead us towards the development of other [DiSo applications](http://code.google.com/p/diso/?ref=chrismessina.me), which I've begun mapping out as [sketches on my wiki](http://factoryjoe.pbwiki.com/DistributedSocialNetwork?ref=chrismessina.me) but that I think we can begin to discuss on the [DiSo mailing list](http://groups.google.com/group/diso-project?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Anne Truitt Zelenka » links for 2007-12-06](http://www.annezelenka.com/2007/12/links-for-2007-12-06?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-06 07:20:40 \[...\] OAuth 1.0, OpenID 2.0 and up next: DiSo | FactoryCity A distributed trust mesh using HTML. (tags: openid social-graph whitelist trust social networking wordpress diso) \[...\] **[Four Starters » Federating the social graph some more](http://fourstarters.com/2007/12/06/federating-the-social-graph-some-more/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-06 08:20:38 \[...\] the same time OAuth 1.0 and OpenID 2.0 are coming to fruition and Chris Messina is talking about distributing social networking applications. And Hyves —our Dutch social network— \[...\] **[Open Social Web Now: #5 at Like It Matters](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/12/06/open-social-web-now-5/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-06 08:45:07 \[...\] Chris and Steve Ivy work on souping up WordPress plugins as a showpiece for distributed social networks. Includes an approach to whitelisting via OpenID + XFN I think I first heard Jeremy talk about. Very interesting. \[...\] **[Anders Conbere](http://anders.conbere.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-06 10:27:02 It seems to me then, what's missing from this is a standardized method of adding and removing friends from your network. While importing your data into a network is great, having to maintain it by hand sucks. So creating a standardized interface that can be accessed by social network applications through OAuth is just as important as creating a method of displaying this information. **[Luis Villa’s Blog / DiSo.](http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/12/06/diso/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-06 12:37:41 \[...\] OpenID blossoming into something really, really interesting. Yummy. \[...\] **[John Allsopp](http://microformatique.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-06 13:17:11 Chris, might I offer a non acronymous name for DiSo - "openbook". **[Chris Jay](http://chrisfjay.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-06 14:25:10 Great news! but you might want to check that XFN link, I got a nasty surprise when clicking it :) **[tekArtist » Diso Is Born. OpenSocial Delayed Until Next Year.](http://tekartist.org/blog/2007/12/06/diso-is-born-opensocial-delayed-until-next-year/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-06 20:54:53 \[...\] taste the mythical open, decentralized social network of tomorrow. In context, turns out it was the network of the day-after-tomorrow after all, with Chris Messina posting: Steve Ivy and I have embarked on a prototype project to \[...\] **Erick Papadakis** ¡ 2007-12-06 21:32:57 How is DiSo different from the endeavors down at Dataportability.org? **[DiSo « Superstar IT](http://superstarit.com/2007/12/07/diso/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-06 22:21:27 \[...\] DiSo, NoseRub, OAuth, OpenID While I just mentioned it yesterday and then got back to work, Chris Messina started DiSo, a project to enable OpenID and OAuth within WordPress. The obvious intention is to \[...\] **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-06 23:27:56 @Chris Jay: whoops! Fixed! @Erick: I'm a member of the Data Portability group, but I'm antsy to build something! **[DiSo Project :: Welcome to the Diso Project](http://www.diso-project.org/2007/12/07/welcome-to-the-diso-project/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-07 06:59:57 \[...\] Chris on Diso: OAuth 1.0, OpenID 2.0 and up next: DiSo \[...\] **[DiSo, A OpenID And OAuth Prototype | iface thoughts](http://ifacethoughts.net/2007/12/08/diso-a-openid-and-oauth-prototype/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-07 11:08:45 \[...\] short, where this is leading to creating a portable network. Chris Messina explains the specifics of the WordPress implementation So anyway, we’re using Will Norris’ wp-openid plugin, and when \[...\] **[EnThinnai Blog » Blog Archive » Self Maintained Contact Information](http://blog.enthinnai.com/2007/12/07/self-maintained-contact-information/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-07 12:43:24 \[...\] yesterday’s post Chris Messina quotes Joseph Smarr who has laid out an import set of roles that help to clarify how pieces of \[...\] **[James Governor’s Monkchips » links for 2007-12-07](http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/12/07/links-for-2007-12-07/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-07 15:31:27 \[...\] OAuth 1.0, OpenID 2.0 and up next: DiSo | FactoryCity the future of id. now. (tags: identity) \[...\] **[Irregular Verbiage » Blog Archive » Tech Links](http://www.coralbark.net/blog/?p=95&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-07 15:44:14 \[...\] DiSo The start of an open Facebook based on OpenID? (via Luis again) \[...\] **[People Over Process » links for 2007-12-08](http://www.redmonk.com/cote/2007/12/08/links-for-2007-12-08/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-07 23:18:53 \[...\] OAuth 1.0, OpenID 2.0 and up next: DiSo | FactoryCity (tags: oauth trust openid microformats xfn via:twitter via:factoryjoe) \[...\] **[The Progressive Economics Forum » Will privacy concerns kill Facebook?](http://www.progressive-economics.ca/2007/12/08/will-privacy-concerns-kill-facebook/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-08 13:13:36 \[...\] Messina, who has been working on OAuth and the open social web in general, has a post detailing what he’s doing with both specs and how these two might be used in the future. It means that we now have protocols that can begin \[...\] **[afongen » links for 2007-12-09](http://afongen.com/blog/2007/12/08/links-for-2007-12-09/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-08 21:30:03 \[...\] OAuth 1.0, OpenID 2.0 and up next: DiSo | FactoryCity (tags: openid oauth identity) \[...\] **[Tijs Teulings](http://tijs.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 11:09:39 Hi Chris, You might want to take a look at our OpenContacts project; http://wiki.opencontact.org It's similar in it's solutions to DiSo but focusing solely on contacts and alos including automated updating. **[Four Starters » Federating Social Networks review](http://fourstarters.com/2007/12/10/federating-social-networks-review/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 15:22:40 \[...\] week also saw the announcement of the DiSo project by Chris Messina. A way of building open social networks using Wordpress as the \[...\] **[a work on process » links for 2007-12-10](http://jystewart.net/process/2007/12/links-for-2007-12-10/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-09 20:21:14 \[...\] OAuth 1.0, OpenID 2.0 and up next: DiSo | FactoryCity Chris Messina and friends are doing good work prototyping the next generation of social networking tools (tags: diso oauth openid socialnetworking) \[...\] **[wp-openid moving to DiSo](http://willnorris.com/2007/12/wp-openid-moving-to-diso?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-10 11:59:17 \[...\] case you missed it last week, Steve Ivy and Chris Messina announced the DiSo Project as an incubator of sorts to develop distributed social applications. \[...\] **[Diso - OpenID and beyond in Wordpress : Rohan’s blog](http://os.mih.com/blogs/rstrydom/2007/12/11/diso-openid-and-beyond-in-wordpress/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-11 07:17:27 \[...\] From here: \[...\] **Chris Obdam** ¡ 2007-12-11 12:45:09 @Chris You've added a Magnolia link for OpenContacts but it's linked to opencontact.org Without an S.. :-) Don't think that's correct.. **[The Next Social Network: WordPress - GigaOM](http://gigaom.com/2007/12/11/the-next-social-network-wordpress/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-11 15:46:19 \[...\] serve as your next social networking profile? Chris Messina, co-founder of Citizen Agency, thinks so. He’s started a project called DiSo, for distributed social networking, that aims to \[...\] **[n.sputnik » Could A Decentralized FaceBook/F8-Type Platform Become "Web 3.0"?](http://nsputnik.com/?p=153&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-11 16:17:19 \[...\] 12/11/07 Chris Messina has the real to this answer, and it is called DiSo. And the standard API for communication is called OAuth. Technorati Tags: social networking app, \[...\] **[What DiSo Means to Me « Changing Way](http://changingway.org/2007/12/12/what-diso-means-to-me/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 00:17:30 \[...\] It’ll initially produce code that works with WordPress. Chris Messina, one of the three founders of the project (DiSoManiacs?) stated that this project is intended to be an example whose concepts should be able to be implemented on any pla.... \[...\] **[Biccio. » Il tuo blog come carta d’identitĂ ](http://www.biccio.com/web/il-tuo-blog-come-carta-didentita?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 04:56:41 \[...\] (vedi The Social Graph problem di Brad Fitzpatrick), citando gli esperimenti di Steve Ivy (vedi DiSo) per esporre la propria contact list verso altre \[...\] **[Social Networking: un enorme social network chiamato Web (Parte 2) | Stalkk.ed](http://www.stalkked.com/2007/12/12/social-networking-un-enorme-social-network-chiamato-web-parte-2/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 13:38:20 \[...\] lui chiama “citizen-centric identity” (o “user-centric identity”). E in un articolo pubblicato su Factory City, egli introduce il progetto DiSo, un acronimo che sta per “Distributed Social \[...\] **[WordPress Wednesday News: WordPress Theme Viewer Waits, New Social Network, Security Issues, Austin Grows, Gravatars Enabled, WordPress Books, Matt Cutts, and More : The Blog Herald](http://www.blogherald.com/2007/12/12/wordpress-wednesday-news-wordpress-theme-viewer-waits-new-social-network-security-issues-austin-grows-gravatars-enabled-wordpress-books-matt-cutts-and-more/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 20:15:25 \[...\] with WordPress: Gigaom announces “The Next Social Network” being put together by Chris Messina called DiSo on the WordPress \[...\] **[microformats.dk » Projekt DiSO](http://www.microformats.dk/2007/12/13/projekt-diso/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 00:53:38 \[...\] Chris Messina (2007) - OAuth 1.0, OpenID 2.0 and up next: DiSo \[...\] **[James D Kirk](http://jamesdkirk.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 01:18:35 Hey Chris, I've had so many tabs opened today, that I finally realized I never finished reading this post! Glad I did however. As I'm glad I've gotten membership to DiSo and the mailing list. Very much looking forward to working in this group for the betterment of the online community as well as my own nefarious means! (Okay just kidding, honest!) Looking forward to "what's next!" **[Eksponering » OpenID — nu med billeder](http://www.wasab.dk/morten/eksponering/arkiv/2007/12/13/openid-nu-med-billeder/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 04:45:28 \[...\] til at se mere til det her og der, specielt nu da OpenID 2.0 er pĂĽ banen, skarpt efterfulgt af OAuth 1.0\. OgsĂĽ Wired har opdaget mulighederne, DiSo er undervejs, og selv undertegnede har nu en \[...\] **[poso.dk - om portable sociale netvĂŚrk » Facebook ĂĽbner op?](http://www.poso.dk/2007/12/13/facebook-abner-op/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 05:05:13 \[...\] distribuerede (portable) sociale netvĂŚrk/identitet/applikationer. LĂŚs fx om det nye initiativ DiSo her. …embarked on a prototype project to build a social network with its skin inside out. We’re \[...\] **[claimID weblog - Manage your online identity. » Archive » DiSo and the future of Social Networks](http://blog.claimid.com/2007/12/diso-and-the-future-of-social-networks/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 06:19:26 \[...\] these reasons, we’re following Chris’ work on DiSo - Distributed Social Networking Applications. He’s working with Will Norris and Steve Ivy \[...\] **[WordPress Blogs: The Next Social Network? « Gormful](http://gormful.com/wordpress-blogs-the-next-social-network/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 10:24:37 \[...\] Chris Messina, DiSo’s co-creator, is looking at WordPress as its foundation “to create a distributed social network with its skin inside out.” This project, if successful, might pioneer in unifying the social graph. One social \[...\] **[EnThinnai Blog » Blog Archive » Distributed Social Network](http://blog.enthinnai.com/2007/12/13/distributed-social-network/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 13:43:34 \[...\] to building a distributed social network using Wordpress as the basic platform. A week back, Chris Messina mentioned in his blog about his plans to work on a “prototype project to build a social network \[...\] **[Todd](http://technorati.com/people/technorati/ronin691?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 14:21:46 "...this project is intended to be an example whose concepts should be able to be implemented on any platform." Is anyone already working on a DiSo for Drupal? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 15:02:57 @Todd: there does seem to be interest so far, but I'm sure we could use some more help! **[poso.dk - om portable sociale netvĂŚrk » Interessante links fundet d. 13\. December](http://www.poso.dk/2007/12/14/interessante-links-fundet-d-13-december/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-13 16:46:28 \[...\] OAuth 1.0, OpenID 2.0 and up next: DiSo | FactoryCity - With OpenID for identity and authentication and OAuth for authorizing access to portions of your private data, we move ever closer to inverting the silos and providing greater mobility and freedom of choice, restoring the balance in the marketplace and el \[...\] **[Del primer weblog a redes sociales a partir de Wordpress « Historias de un Webmaster](http://afalcon.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/del-primer-weblog-a-redes-sociales-a-partir-de-wordpress/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-17 18:26:50 \[...\] un proyecto nuevo llamado DiSo (Distributed Social Networking Applications), un nuevo proyecto de Chris Messina para intentar crear una red social descentralizada sobre Wordpress utilizando Open ID, \[...\] **[What’s New, Marcus? • Links I’m Reading Today](http://citizenwausau.com/marcus/2007/12/18/links-im-reading-today/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-18 19:27:04 \[...\] of open source implementations of these distributed social networking concepts. or as Chris puts it: “to build a social network with its skin inside \[...\] **[Redes Sociales con WordPress | WOW Magazine](http://www.wow-mag.com/blogs/redes-sociales-con-wordpress/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-19 07:46:52 \[...\] el blog de GigaOm me entero del nuevo proyecto de Chris Messina, llamado DiSo (Distributed Social Networking Applications), el cual busca el objetivo de crear una \[...\] **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » 25 who mattered in 2007](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2007/12/25-who-mattered-in-2007?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-22 17:46:29 \[...\] all the BarCamps that have erupted around the world. OpenID2, oAuth, microformats, Diso - Chris is helping to make the world of open social networking - a reality. And giving all the code \[...\] **[charles](http://springrider.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-23 21:50:21 I want to get on your list:P **[Louis van Proosdij](http://lvp.pip.verisignlabs.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-25 03:15:32 I love the idea and will promote it! **[martin](http://digitalknowledgeworker.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-27 03:38:34 This is a fascinating idea. I would like to become a mental supporter due to lack of time - how about an icon/badge/thingy that I can put on my homepage or in my FB profile? cheers, M **[Wordpress too complicated to be THE next social network](http://thenextweb.org/2008/01/02/wordpress-too-complicated-to-be-the-next-social-network/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-02 08:59:13 \[...\] project that by using OpenID as an identifier and Wordpress as publishing platform wants to “build a social network with its skin inside out.” With some sophisticated blogroll-related plugins, bloggers would be able to build a social \[...\] **[What is the future of Content Management Systems related to Social Networks — mrtopf.de](http://mrtopf.de/blog/web20/what-is-the-future-of-content-management-systems-related-to-social-networks/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-06 06:30:00 \[...\] project I am trying to get involved with in the future is probably DiSo which stands for Distributed Social Networks and is very much going in the aboce described \[...\] **Phillip Rhodes** ¡ 2008-01-10 07:20:05 Good stuff. Looking forward to more on Diso. :-) **[slownowake.com »  Links I’m Reading Today](http://slownowake.com/2007/12/links-im-reading-today/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-13 08:41:40 \[...\] a group of open source implementations of these distributed social networking concepts. or as Chris puts it: “to build a social network with its skin inside \[...\] **[Verteilte soziale Netzwerke mit Wordpress: DiSo — mrtopf.de](http://mrtopf.de/blog/web20/verteilte-soziale-netzwerke-mit-wordpress-diso/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-14 02:36:12 \[...\] post explains, what the DiSo project by Chris Messina and Steve Ivy is all about. Just read this or this for an english \[...\] **[Note to Facebook, Myspace and Other Social Silos: DIE](http://www.justinball.com/2008/03/04/note-to-facebook-myspace-and-other-social-silos-die/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-04 15:24:56 \[...\] to Matt & Toni: Three ways for Wordpress to become more of a social network’. The DiSo project is targeting Wordpress first in an effort to create an open social network. An interview with Chris \[...\] **[RaĂşl Vera (rojo) » Blog Archive » De Wordpress a las Redes Sociales, una evoluciĂłn natural](http://verablogs.enlacescreativos.com.ar/rojo/?p=270&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-24 18:32:34 \[...\] un proyecto nuevo llamado DiSo (Distributed Social Networking Applications), un nuevo proyecto de Chris Messina para intentar crear una red social descentralizada sobre Wordpress utilizando Open ID, \[...\] **[Friendfeed - det är nu det händer · Mindpark](http://mindpark.se/2008/03/26/friendfeed-det-ar-nu-det-hander/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-26 04:37:15 \[...\] sagt allting som idag ligger lĂĽst i olika applikationer pĂĽ datorn eller pĂĽ nätet. Läs tex om OAuth och OpenID här. Det är spännande tider av Ăśppenhet och mĂśjligheter, och alla verkar dras in i \[...\] **[DiSo as explained by @kveton and @mtrichardson - Sponsored by Vidoop at Beer and Blog](http://www.beerandblog.com/diso-as-explained-by-kveton-and-mtrichardson-sponsored-by-vidoop/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-12 12:18:55 \[...\] Chris Messina’s announcement of the collaboration effort with Steve Ivy \[...\] **[Peter Van Dijck’s Guide to Ease » Blog Archive](http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2008/06/19/4214/4214?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-19 02:34:19 \[...\] a group of open source implementations of these distributed social networking concepts. or as Chris puts it: “to build a social network with its skin inside out”. Specifically, they’re starting \[...\] **[» OAuth and WordPress MaisonBisson.com](http://maisonbisson.com/blog/post/12196/oauth-and-wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-07 12:50:19 \[...\] Chris Messina, who says we currently treat user credentials “like confetti,” is more than a little excited and is building a series of WordPress Plugins to take advantage of these formats. Stephane Daury is excited too. Related:TruthShortcodesWidgetsInstallation & OptionsbSuite 4 \[...\] **[Soziales Netzwerk auf Basis von Wordpress? - Netzlogbuch](http://netzlogbuch.de/community/soziales-netzwerk-auf-basis-von-wordpress/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-12 01:07:30 \[...\] seit Ende 2007 wird immer wieder darĂźber nachgedacht, ob sich ein soziales Netzwerk auf Basis von Wordpress realisieren lassen \[...\] **[Vincent](http://vinnl.nl/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-08 13:15:18 This is exciting! This is very much in line with the software I'm writing right now, which aims to turn the internet into a social network (i.e. regardless of the software you use). I implemented a new protocol for notifying a website when you added it to your contact list (blogroll) because I couldn't find an appropriate standard, but I think I'm on the right track :) **[The DiSo Project and Thinking of Ways to Collaborate](http://demo.bajenov.com/?p=216&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-13 22:11:27 \[...\] Distributed Social projecthttp://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/12/06/oauth-10-openid-20-and-up-next-diso/ More on how OpenID and OAuth could perhaps be used in this context. \[...\] **[The Song Remains The Same » Blog Archive » A Road Sign In A Digital World](http://jpatterson.floe.tv/index.php/2008/11/30/a-road-sign-in-a-digital-world/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-30 19:24:25 \[...\] we move into the economic downturn, startups (and grassroots efforts) will shift from focusing on the last epoch of social graph and media sites to looking at \[...\] **[DiSo - One Year Later | willnorris.com](http://willnorris.com/2008/12/diso-one-year-later?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-18 12:35:16 \[...\] not sure that anyone mentioned it really, but a couple of weeks ago was the one year anniversary of the DiSo Project. In that time, Chris and I were both hired by Vidoop to work \[...\] **[Where we’re going with Activity Streams | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/20/where-were-going-with-activity-streams/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-20 18:12:23 \[...\] DiSo Project is just over a year old. It’s remained a somewhat amorphous blob of related ideas, concepts and aspirations in my \[...\] **[DiSo Is Born. OpenSocial Delayed Until Next Year. « tekArtist](http://tekartist.org/2007/12/06/diso-is-born-opensocial-delayed-until-next-year/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-11-07 08:02:36 \[...\] taste the mythical open, decentralized social network of tomorrow. In context, turns out it was the network of the day-after-tomorrow, with Chris Messina posting today that: Steve Ivy and I have embarked on a prototype project to \[...\] ### Blogger Beta offers OpenID; or, I am mine. URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/blogger-beta-offers-openid-or-i-am-mine/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:31.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2075777107/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Dave Recordon](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([and](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/11/30/google-trialling-openid-with-blogger-may-offer-openids-to-users/?ref=chrismessina.me) [many](http://netmesh.info/jernst/Digital%5FIdentity/google-blogger-openid-beta.html?version=200711300902&ref=chrismessina.me), [many](http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer/entries/2007/11/30/openid-commenting-for-blogger/1559?ref=chrismessina.me), [many](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2007-11-30/google-and-microsoft-support-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) [others](http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2007/11/blogger-beta-no.html?ref=chrismessina.me))[points out](http://daveman692.livejournal.com/319745.html?ref=chrismessina.me) that the [Blogger Beta](http://bloggerindraft.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) has [added support for accepting OpenID for comments](http://bloggerindraft.blogspot.com/2007/11/new-feature-openid-commenting.html?ref=chrismessina.me). This is a watershed moment in terms of OpenID's brief history as it seems to represent a change in the perception and utility of the protocol by a very significant potential proponent. For once I can say to someone like Google, "*No*, you don't know me, you've never let me use my own credentials — *my own domain* — where I've built up *my* reputation — to login to your system before. To date you've only let me use *your* siloed credentials to sign in against *your* servers... you never trusted me before. Today you're starting to say, *'Well, maybe it's okay for you to tell me who you are using your own credentials.'*" Now, don't think me getting wistful here. OpenID is far from perfect (as Marshall Kirkpatrick [has pointed out](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/the%5Ftroubles%5Fwith%5Fopenid%5F20.php?ref=chrismessina.me)). But, with [Internet Identity Workshop](http://iiw.windley.com/wiki/Workshop%5F2007b?ref=chrismessina.me) coming next week, we have a great opportunity to discuss the necessary improvements that need to happen around user experience, around security, around finalization of the protocol and around thinking through what possibilities a more "citizen centric web" might bring.(Oh, and in case you hadn't noticed, I like to use [Pearl Jam song titles](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXISm3JjYU0&ref=chrismessina.me) in my blog posts.) --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Zo](http://www.humorlessbitch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-23 15:24:13 Forgive me if this seems naive ... but I'm just this girl, I don't track the business of the web except when it gets in my face ... So my question is, To what end? And, is this really as radical as it appears? Like, where's the VCs in all this, where's the great gobs of money to be made. ### Data banks, data brokers and citizen bargaining power URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/data-banks-data-brokers-and-citizen-bargaining-power/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:30.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2067579516/?ref=chrismessina.me)I wrote this this morning in a notebook as a follow up to [my post yesterday](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/11/26/data-portability-and-thinking-ahead-to-2008/?ref=chrismessina.me)... and since I don't have time to clean it up now, I thought I'd present in raw, non-sensible form. Maybe there's some value in a rough draft: > It's like giving our money to a bank and having them turn around and sell our data to try to upsell us on loans and all kind of ... oh wait, but the key difference is if we do get fed up, we can take our money out and go elsewhere, depriving the bank the ability to both target us with their partners' ads and the ability to compound interest on our savings. We need data brokers introduced into the system — organizations who are like safety deposit receptacles for our data — and who speak all APIs and actually advocate on our behalves for better service based on how "valuable" we are — this is necessary to top the scales in our favor — to reintroduce a balancing force into the marketplace because right now the choice to leave means dissing our friends — but if I'm not satisfied but still want to t talk to my friends, why can't I be on the outside, but sending messages in? hell I'm willing to pay — in momentary access to my brokered personal profile — for access to my friends inside the silo. This is what Facebook is doing by shutting down so many accounts — it's not personal — it's protecting its business. They don't want to become a myspace cesspool, succumb to empty profiles and [Gresham’s Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s%5Flaw?ref=chrismessina.me) — overrun with spam profiles and leeches and worthless profile data — a barren wasteland for advertisers who want to connect with that [8% of their customers who make up 32% of their revenue](http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/travel/25conflict.html?ref=chrismessina.me). No it's in data fidelity, richness, ironically FB took it *upon themselves* to weed out the bad from the good in their system-wide sweeps. Unfortunately they [got it wrong a bunch of times](http://getsatisfaction.com/facebook/topics/facebook%5Faccount%5Fdisabled?ref=chrismessina.me). If Facebook allowed the export of data and became a data broker for its users — provided some *citizen agency* to its customers — there would be economic — as well as social — benefits to maintaining a clean and rich profile — beyond just expressiveness to one's friends. For better or worse, FB users have a lot of benefit through the siloed apps of that F8 platform — but the grand vision should be closer to what Google's marketing department christened "OpenSocial"... still though , the roles of banker and broker have yet to be made explicit and so we've leapt to "data portability" for nerds, forgetting that most people 1) [don't care about this stuff](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/11/25/big-brother-facebook-does-anyone-care/?ref=chrismessina.me) 2) are happy to exchange their data for services as long as their friends are doing it too 3) don't want to be burdened with becoming their own libertarian banker! Dave Winer might want to [keep everything in an XML file on his desktop](http://www.scripting.com/stories/2007/11/23/iWantControlOfMyData.html?ref=chrismessina.me#p9), but I know few others who, IRL, feel the same way. Thus concludes my rough notes. So, if Facebook were perceived as a big Data Bank in the sky, how would that change things? Would people demand the ability to "withdraw" their data? Does the metaphor confuse or clarify? In any case, what is the role of data banks and data brokers? Is there a difference if the data container leverages the data for their own benefit? If they sell advertising and [don't provide a clear or universal means to opt-out](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/11/26/facebook-privacy-issue-wont-die/?ref=chrismessina.me)? And what's in the way of making more "benevolent" data vaults a reality — or how do we at least bring the concept into the discussion? I have no personal interest the concept, only that's a viable alternative to the siloed approach is missing from the discussion. And going back to the [business models of OpenID](http://netmesh.info/jernst/Comments/bob-blakley-most-serious-problem.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and other identity providers... well, if any, that's it. It's like having a credit card with access to no credit — what's the point? And OpenID becomes more valuable the more [data capital](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/16/data-capital-or-data-as-common-tender/?ref=chrismessina.me) it has access to. Or something like that. Oh, and I'd like to quote something poignant that [Anders Conbere](http://anders.conbere.org/journal/?ref=chrismessina.me) said to me today in chat: > I was talking with my friend the other day and I tried to explain to him, that what I fear about facebook that I don't fear about pretty much any other vendor is it's continued developement as a competing platform to the web. a locked in, proprietary version and what I see, is just like Microsoft leveraged Windows as a "platform for application developement" facebook is doing that for web developement. what it offers developers is the simplicity and security of a stable developement environment at the cost of inovation because as we've seen, as market share grows, the ability to inovate decreases (since your success is tied to the backwards compatibility of your platform) and I see the possibility of facebook becoming a dominant platform for web application developement which will in turn lead to two decades of stagnation So yeah, put that in your bonnet and smoke it. Or whatever. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Data Brokers - nice idea but could you trust them | WinExtra](http://www.winextra.com/2007/11/26/data-brokers-nice-idea-but-could-you-trust-them/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-26 20:18:05 \[...\] just reading through a post by Chris Messina where he broaches the idea data brokers would would as intermediaries on our behave between the \[...\] **[It’s about interaction stupid! « Alexander van Elsas’s Weblog on new media & technologies and their effect on social behavior](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/its-about-interaction-stupid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-27 01:08:55 \[...\] the social graph and a poor excuse for interaction called a newsfeed. It also brings us privacy and data portability barriers. Twitter brings us easy sharing of thoughts and emotions, but at the same time, due to its \[...\] **Mike(p)** ¡ 2007-11-27 17:43:25 Don't they talk about this in marketing? Being able to withdraw data gives a customer choice. The other part is to feel that you will not suffer a penalty. Its more than about data withdrawal, you might want to put it somewhere else. Data is harder to move to another place, than money. **[Tim Waters](http://thinkwhere.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-28 07:21:22 An example of a data broker service could be Yahoo's Fireeagle. Granted, it's mainly for a subset of personal information - location. In short, you let fireeagle act as a go between between yourself and applications that want to use your location information. Define permissions and tolerances, such as this application by questionable company can only access my location to which country I'm in. My mates application can read my location to house number level, and also update it. http://fireeagle.research.yahoo.com **[This Old Network » Blog Archive » OpenLifeBits - For Your Digital Stuff](http://weblog.terrellrussell.com/2007/11/openlifebits-for-your-digital-stuff/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-28 13:59:22 \[...\] And Chris Messina has been hanging around this space for a while as well and posted two solid write-ups this past week - on data portability and data brokers. \[...\] **[Ben Metcalfe](http://benmetcalfe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-29 11:57:18 > If Facebook allowed the export of data and became a data broker for its users — provided some citizen agency to its customers — there would be economic — as well as social — benefits to maintaining a clean and rich profile — beyond just expressiveness to one’s friends. A 'Citizen Agency', huh? :) Why don't you guys start this broker, as an enterprise? If you think it has an economically feasable model then it surely it's worth starting? You have the name already! :) **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-29 12:33:39 @Ben: put another way, we named Citizen Agency after the concept of *citizens having agency*, not the other way around. ;) As for building said data broker: someday, someday. **[Silona](http://leagueoftechnicalvoters.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-11 09:36:46 See this is so why I wanted you at the workshop in aug... yes data brokers and their roles was a big part of it. I invited both NPO and businesses because I saw both as important to the conversation. And yes I do want banks to take over. It is far better than govt being a single pt of failure. As you stated you can CANCEL at bank acct. They have to address your needs or you take you REPUTATION currency elsewhere. Though I did have a good discussion with govt agencies about this concept of federated identity and multiple data brokers guaranteeing that we don't have this single pt of failure. It seems that most of the people working in govt would like something better. Just hadn't had it offered to them before and the idea of being given a free and working system to buy into was VERY interesting to them. With govt agencies it is the same as the rest of the public - making it free and easy is crucial. also to a comment here - can you trust them? only if they are transparent and use open standards. Then you can monitor them. Don't trust anyone blindly. Your privacy in regards to secrecy is gone. The next evolution of privacy is more about determining rights and legal actions once people access that data. The new AI's that are being developed over psychometric data... yea secrecy is dying. Focus on rights. **[http://raconteuring.com/](http://raconteuring.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-15 17:25:08 The difference between Microsoft and Facebook as a platform is that it's much more difficult for Facebook to make their FBML (the foundation of their F8 platform) proprietary. There is nothing stopping a competitor from supporting FBML in a similar framework. If you do that, then it's a matter of changing entrypoints... **[Responding to criticisms about OpenID: convenience, security and personal agency | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/12/26/responding-to-criticisms-about-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-27 13:51:31 \[...\] to worry about services like Pownce being sold or I Want Sandy users left wanting. I have choice, I have bargaining power, and I have agency, and this is critical to the viability of the social web at \[...\] ### Data portability and thinking ahead to 2008 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/data-portability-and-thinking-ahead-to-2008/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:29.000Z So-called data portability and [data ownership](http://www.scripting.com/stories/2007/11/23/iWantControlOfMyData.html?ref=chrismessina.me) is a hot topic of late, and with good reason: with all the talk of the opening of social networking sites and the [loss of *presumed* privacy](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/11/11/privacy-publicity-and-open-data/?ref=chrismessina.me), there's been a commensurate acknowledgment that the value is *not* in the portability of widgets (via OpenSocial et al) but instead, (as [Tim O'Reilly](http://radar.oreilly.com/tim?ref=chrismessina.me) [eloquently put it](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/11/opensocial%5Fsocial%5Fmashups.html?ref=chrismessina.me)) it's the data, stupid! Now, [Doc's call for action](http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/11/25/time-to-write-our-own-rules/?ref=chrismessina.me) is well timed, as we near the close of 2007 and set our sights on 2008\. Earlier this year, [ZDNet predicted](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/01/03/zdnet-calls-2007-the-year-of-url-based-identity/?ref=chrismessina.me) that [2007 would be the year of OpenID](http://jyte.com/cl/2007-will-be-the-year-of-openid?ref=chrismessina.me), and for all intents and purposes, it has been, if only in that it put the concept of non-siloed user accounts on the map. We have a long way to go, to be sure, but with OpenID 2.0 around the corner, it's only a matter of time before building *user prisons* goes out of fashion and building OpenID-based citizen-centric services becomes the norm. Inspired by the fact that even [Mitchell Baker](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/?ref=chrismessina.me) of Mozilla is [talking about Firefox's role in the issue of data ownership](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2007/11/mozilla%5Faspirations%5F2008.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (In 2008 ... We find new ways to give people greater control over their online lives — access to data, control of data...), this is going to be issue that most defines 2008 — or at least the early part of the year. And frankly, we're already off to a good start. So here are the things that I think fit into this picture and what needs to happen to push progress on this central issue: - **Economic incentives and VRM:** Doc is right to phrase the debate in terms of [VRM](http://projectvrm.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). When it comes down to it, nothing's going to change unless 1) customers refuse to play along anymore and demand change and 2) there's increased economic benefit to companies that give back control to their customers versus those companies that continue to either restrict or abuse/sell out their customers' data. Currently, this is a consumer rights battle, but since it's being fought largely in Silicon Valley where the issues are understood technically while valuations are tied to the attractiveness a platform has to advertisers, consumers are at a great disadvantage since they can't make a compelling economic case. And given that the government and most bureaucracy is fulled up with stakeholders who are hungry for more and more accurate and technologically-distilled demographic data, it's unlikely that we could force the issue through the legal system, as has been approximated in places like Germany and the UK. - **Reframing of privacy and access permissions:** I've harped on this for awhile, but historic notions of privacy have been out-moded by modern realities. Those who do [expect complete and utter control](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/technology/12online.html?ex=1336622400&en=8e8700408d2de5b1&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&ref=chrismessina.me) need to take a look at the up and coming generation and realize that, while it's true that they, on a whole, don't appreciate the value and sacredness of their privacy, and that they're certainly more willing to exchange it for access to services or to simply dispense with it altogether and face the consequences later (eavesdroppers be damned!), their apathy indicates the uphill struggle we face in credibly making our case. Times have changed. Privacy and our notions of it [must adapt too](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/11/terrorist.surveillance.ap/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me). And that starts by developing the language to discuss these matters in a way that's obvious and salient to those who are concerned about these issues. Simply demanding the protection of one's privacy is now a hollow and unrealistic demand; now we should be talking about access, about permissions, about provenance, about review and about federation and delegation. It's not until we deepen our understanding of the facets of identity, and of personal data and of personal profiles, tastestreams and newsfeeds that can begin to make headway on exploring the economic aspects of customer data and who should control it, have access to it, [can create, read, update, and delete](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Create,%5Fread,%5Fupdate%5Fand%5Fdelete?ref=chrismessina.me) - **Data portability and open/non-proprietary web standards and protocols:** Since this is an area I've been involved in and am passionate about, I have some specific thoughts on this. For one thing, the technologies that I obsess over have data portability at their center: [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) for identification and ["hanging" data](http://redmonk.net/archives/2007/11/25/making-a-list-whitelisting-with-openid-and-xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me), [microformats](http://microformats.org/wiki/data-portability?ref=chrismessina.me) for marking it up, and [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) for provisioning controlled access to said data... The development, adoption and implementation of this breed of technologies is paramount to demonstrating both the potential and need for a re-orientation of the way web services are built and deployed today. Without the deployment of these technologies and their cousins, we risk web-wide lock-in to vender-specific solutions like Facebook's FBML or Google's [OpenSocial](http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/?ref=chrismessina.me), greatly inhibiting the potential for market growth and innovation. And it's not so much that these technologies are necessarily bad in and of themselves, but that they represent a grave shift away from the slower but less commercially-driven development of open and public-domained web standards. [Consider me the frog in the luke warm water](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling%5Ffrog?ref=chrismessina.me) recognizing that things are starting to get warm in here. - **Citizen-centric web services:** The result of progress in these three topics is what I'm calling the "citizen-centric web", where a citizen is anyone who inhabits the web, in some form or another. Citizen-centric web services, are, of course, services provided to those inhabitants. This notion is what I think is, and should, going to drive much of thinking in 2008 about how to build better *citizen-centric web services*, where individuals identify themselves to services, [rather than](http://microformats.org/wiki/social%5Fnetwork%5Fportability?ref=chrismessina.me) [recreating themselves](http://www.sitepoint.com/article/social-networks-take-friends?ref=chrismessina.me) and their [so-called social-graph](http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/2007/11/tim-berners-lee.html?ref=chrismessina.me); where they can push and pull their data at their whim and fancy, and where such data is essentially "leased" out to various service providers on an as-needed basis, rather than on a once-and-for-all status using OAuth tokens and proxied delegation to trusted data providers; where citizens control not only who can contact them, but are able to express, in portable terms, a [list of people or companies who cannot contact them or pitch ads to them](http://microformats.org/wiki/block-list?ref=chrismessina.me), *anywhere*; where citizens are able to audit a comprehensive list of profile and behavior data that any company has on file about them and to be able to correct, edit or revoke that data; where ["permission" has a universal, citizen-positive definition](http://www.calacanis.com/2007/11/25/the-wonderful-horrible-life-of-facebook-users-and-their-data-or/?ref=chrismessina.me); where companies have to agree to a [Creative Commons-style Terms of Access and Stewardship](http://wiki.oauth.net/PublicCommons?ref=chrismessina.me) before being able to even *look* at a customer's personal data; and that, perhaps most import to making all this happen, [sound business models are developed](http://netmesh.info/jernst/Comments/bob-blakley-most-serious-problem.html?ref=chrismessina.me) that actually work with this new orientation, rather than [in spite of it](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/03/18/because-of-open-source/?ref=chrismessina.me). So, in grandiose terms I suppose, these are the issues that I'm pondering as 2008 approaches and as I ready myself for the challenges and battles that lie ahead. I think we're making considerable progress on the technology side of things, though there's always more to do. I think we need to make more progress on the language, economic, business and framing fronts, though. But, we're making progress, and thankfully we're having these conversations now and developing real solutions that *will* result in a more citizen-centric reality in the not too distant future. If you're interested in discussing these topics in depth, make it to the [Internet Identity Workshop](http://iiw.idcommons.net/index.php/Iiw2007b?ref=chrismessina.me) [next week](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/310069/?ref=chrismessina.me), where these topics are going to be front and center in what should be a pretty excellent meeting of the minds on these and related topics. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Let Facebook be a data hog. User centric thinking will win in the end « Alexander van Elsas’s Weblog on new media & technologies and their effect on social behavior](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/let-facebook-be-a-data-hog-user-centric-thinking-will-win-in-the-end/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-26 05:47:17 \[...\] has written an excellent post on the subject of data portability. He writes about the Citizen centric web (he has written about it before, look it up on his blog): \[...\] **[Jeremiah Owyang](http://web-strategist.com/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-26 07:04:14 Thanks Chris, I enjoy your insight, every time. BTW, this link is broken: http://factoryjoe.com/projectvrm.org **[Anders Conbere](http://anders.conbere.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-26 08:23:34 the link to projectvrm.org is broken, otherwise a good roundup of a lot of issues that we'll be facing this year. It should definitely be an exciting time. That being said, here's some actual comment. VRM - I question how often there are large scale industry changes as a result of charges from the consumer (and I think doc makes his point when he says that just getting mad and huffing about switching), I would say in fact that I don't think we'll ever see consumers "demanding change". What we will see is other companies offer a product that is more compelling, and capable of providing the consumer with features they didn't even know they wanted. And I suppose that's sort of at the root of it. Most consumers don't know what they want. They do know they want to be involved in social networking. But they aren't aware that they are "giving up their data", because a product doesn't exist on the market that's compelling, provides for data ownership, and does so in such a way the the consumer isn't just swamped. So I don't think this should be a call for consumers to act out (maybe us geeks certainly). But it should really be a call for the developers and euntrapeuners to find a way to change the market realities. Right now we live in this constricting world where the value of a social network directly corresponds to the number of users it has over it competitors (similarly for other mediums like video/pictures/movie preferences/etc.). Until we (developers) begin to provide a way to tear down that current understanding of value, there will be no way to progress in the market. We have to create products that demonstrate the value and utility of applications that a) share data b) let users own data. In the case of social networks this means demonstrating that social networks can compete not on the quantity of the users, but the quality of their product (and possibly the quality of their users). This /shouldn't/ be terribly difficult, we already understand that certain target demographics are worth more than others (golfers, doctors, lawyers) so certainly it should be an easy mapping to understand that the breakdown in user value is more granular than what we're seeing today. And we certainly already understand that companies in the physical world are capable of competing in their own right, so why not bring this to the market. rambly, but there you go. \~ Anders **[Chris Anderson](http://jchris.mfdz.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-26 11:11:10 The filesystem is the most successful way we've ever dealt with these issues in the past. If I could wave a magic wand and widely deploy any solution to these issues, I would concentrate on giving users the ability to save session state as local documents, and then upload those documents to other services. The easiest examples are documents like address books, atom collections, and XSPF playlists. The hardest part will be for web programmers to grok the desktop application model - user has a file, wants to open it using an application, make some changes, save, quit, and then maybe open the same document in another application. This is something we do all the time on the desktop, but moving those ideas to the web will not be easy. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-26 11:26:44 @Jeremiah: Fixed, thanks! ;) **[David Blanar](http://blog.dkb.mailhome.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-26 16:26:55 This is an important discussion; I would, however, suggest stressing the distinction between 'privacy' and 'anonymity' - they are not necessarily synonymous. A transaction online is no different than one in the public square, where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy and limited expectation of anonymity: some transactions may be public but anonymous: for example, a charitable donation. If we accept legal, commercial transactions require a legitimate buyer and seller, it follows there will no privacy and limited anonymity - this is by design. In which case, I would argue the greatest challenge lies in creating a frictionless, common ID system, facilitating all web transactions, commercial or social. The challenge is not protecting a Facebook news feed, the equivalent of standing on Speaker's Corner and ranting at the rain. Privacy \*is\* an illusion; it is therefore incumbent upon us to be mindful of the only relevant question remaining: who is watching the watchers? Thanks Chris, good stuff. **[This Old Network » Blog Archive » OpenLifeBits - For Your Digital Stuff](http://weblog.terrellrussell.com/2007/11/openlifebits-for-your-digital-stuff/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-28 13:59:02 \[...\] been hanging around this space for a while as well and posted two solid write-ups this past week - on data portability and data \[...\] **[This Week’s Bookmarks at Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2007-12-02/this-weeks-bookmarks/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-02 00:03:15 \[...\] Data portability and thinking ahead to 2008 | FactoryCity \[...\] **[The Burgeoning Openly Owned Web](http://andy.csartec.com/2007/12/02/26/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-02 10:04:26 \[...\] Excellent post on data portability and control that captures important issues that we’ve talked about: \[...\] **[Open Social Web Now: #5 at Like It Matters](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/12/06/open-social-web-now-5/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-06 08:45:24 \[...\] lays out some issues to wrestle with in 2008, as we try to make data portability \[...\] **[Nodalities » Blog Archive » This Week’s Semantic Web](http://blogs.talis.com/nodalities/2007/11/this%5Fweeks%5Fsemantic%5Fweb%5F20.php?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-17 09:08:49 \[...\] Data portability and thinking ahead to 2008 \[...\] **[Scott Kveton · I’m for the Open Web](http://kveton.com/blog/2008/06/06/im-for-the-open-web/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-06 13:33:53 \[...\] the Data Portability project have hinted (both publicly and privately) at leaving. Others have just outright \[...\] **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » June 6th blogging - '08](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/06/june-6th-blogging-08?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-06 19:52:25 \[...\] it seems like a lot of people and organizations are quitting Dataportability.org. I wonder why? Let see is any of the scandal rags and so-called blogging leaders pick up on this. This \[...\] **[Unit Structures – Linking Unit Structures](http://fstutzman.com/2008/06/07/linking-unit-structures-2/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-22 08:53:29 \[...\] DataPortability can keep up its shell game for Techcrunch crowd, but moves like Kveton’s (and Chris Messina’s) have tremendous influence among people actually building \[...\] ### WP-Imagefit proportionally resizes images to fit your blog template URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/wp-imagefit-proportionally-resizes-images-to-fit-your-blog-template/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:28.000Z [](http://factoryjoe.com/projects/wp-imagefit/?ref=chrismessina.me)I'm happy to announce the release of my *second* ever WordPress plugin called [WP-Imagefit](http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/wp-imagefit/?ref=chrismessina.me). (My first, which I've neglected for sometime, is called [WP-Microformatted-Blogroll](http://factorycity.net/projects/wp-microformatted-blogroll/?ref=chrismessina.me)). WP-Imagefit is extremely simple and serves one purpose: to get images in blog posts to fit inside the columns that contain them. In fact, this plugin is used on this blog, so if you see ever images load wider than the column and then quickly snap to fit the container's width, it's this plugin that's doing that. I originally discovered this trick thanks to [Oliver Boermans](http://www.ollicle.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)' NetNewsWire [Ollicle Reflex](http://www.ollicle.com/2006/nov/28/jquery%5Fnetnewswire%5Fstyle.html?ref=chrismessina.me) style. Working together, he extracted the resizing code into a jQuery plugin called [jquery.imagefit.js](http://www.ollicle.com/eg/jquery/imagefit/?ref=chrismessina.me) and made it available to me for use in my [EasyReader NetNewsWire theme](http://code.google.com/p/nnw-easyreader/?ref=chrismessina.me). I had hacked it to work for my blog theme but decided that I should turn it into a WordPress plugin so I could use it elsewhere (and given that CSS's `max-width` attribute not only wasn't cross-browser, but also shrunk images horizontally, I needed a better solution). So, there you have it. Go ahead and [download it](http://downloads.wordpress.org/plugin/wp-imagefit.zip?ref=chrismessina.me). Installation and setup is standard as long as you have an [hAtom](http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom?ref=chrismessina.me)\-compliant theme like [K2](http://getk2.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) or [Sandbox](http://www.plaintxt.org/themes/sandbox/?ref=chrismessina.me). I have a [WordPress.org](http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/wp-imagefit/?ref=chrismessina.me) project page setup, the [source is available](http://dev.wp-plugins.org/browser/wp-imagefit/trunk?ref=chrismessina.me) (released under GPL), and if you want something to look at it, here's the [official homepage](http://factoryjoe.com/projects/wp-imagefit/?ref=chrismessina.me). Feedback/feature requests/patches certainly appreciated and encouraged! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Matt Herzberger.com » Blog Archive » Here is your del.icio.us goodness for 11-18](http://mattherzberger.com/2007/11/18/here-is-your-delicious-goodness-for-11-18/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-18 00:25:49 \[...\] - WP-Imagefit proportionally resizes images to fit your blog template | FactoryCity mely simple and serves one purpose: to get images in blog posts to fit inside the columns that \[...\] **[Amos Moses Griffin](http://barleyhut.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-18 07:27:53 Nice work here Chris. This would solve the problem of post image and theme changes. Seeing that I'm constantly fiddling with my design/theme this plugin would eliminate one headache. I'd hate to say how much time I've spent changing the widths of my photos. Haven't looked at the code yet but it must latch into hentry or entry-content? That's why it'll work on hatom only? In any event, thanks for the hard work and community love. You have my appreciation. **[Nate Westheimer](http://innonate.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-18 12:14:22 Very cool, Chris. Installing it now. I have this problem all the time. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-18 14:39:44 @Amos: it only support hAtom blogs for two reasons: 1) to selfishly promote hAtom 2) because I don't know how to add multiple search classes to the jQuery code (I simply need to do more research into jQuery!). If you're not using hAtom, just sub out the containers' classes for the hAtom-specific class (.hentry) on line 20 in wp-imagefit.php. **[Joel](http://euphemize.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-20 14:01:05 Any examples available out there in the wild yet Chris? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-24 23:52:21 Hey Joel, you mean besides my site? ;) Not that I've heard of yet! **[WP-Imagefit at Camiel Schoonens](http://www.schoonens.nl/camiel/index.php/2007/11/27/wp-imagefit/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-28 00:47:08 \[...\] This plugin is currently only compatible with an hAtom-compliant theme like K2 or Sandbox and can be downloaded here. \[...\] **[WP-Imagefit, a new plug-in for the masses! at Joshua’s Blog](http://wolfnix.net/blog/2007/12/wp-imagefit-a-new-plug-in-for-the-masses/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-02 23:37:45 \[...\] is a plug-in that Chris Messina author of FactoryJoe, and Co-Founder of Citizen Space has \[...\] **[Josh Altemoos](http://www.wolfnix.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-02 23:40:16 Hey! I love this plug-in. It is just what I needed to migrate to k2!! Thanks! **[Jeff](http://journeyguy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-30 08:02:00 I am trying this out on my blog, but it's not working... Either for uploaded images or for linked images. ### Apple source code pointing to social features? URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/apple-source-code-pointing-to-social-features/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:27.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2009123355/?ref=chrismessina.me)File this in the wild conjecture/handy-waving category. I did some random digging today and stumbled upon something that could be pretty interesting, or, could be nothing more than the equivalent of the human appendix of Leopard: remnants of a good idea that somehow along the way never got completed, but traces of it still exist in the modern state for no apparent reason than to confuse and confound those with too many mental faculties at his disposal. But let's go with the *what if?* take. What with my interest in [getting people into software](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/31/opensocial-and-address-book-20-putting-people-into-the-protocol/?ref=chrismessina.me) in [interesting ways](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/11/06/coverflow-for-people/?ref=chrismessina.me), this one seems, like cave paintings, to point to earlier attempts at some fundamental type of expression of a very contemporary idea. Anyway, the thing is this. While poking around [Articles.js](///System/Library/Frameworks/PubSub.framework/Versions/A/Resources/PubSubAgent.app/Contents/Resources/Articles.js) in Leopard's [PubSub.framework](http://developer.apple.com/documentation/InternetWeb/Conceptual/PubSub/Introduction/chapter%5F1%5Fsection%5F1.html?ref=chrismessina.me#//apple%5Fref/doc/uid/TP40004945-CH1-DontLinkElementID%5F24) (you'll need to be running Leopard for the Articles.js link), I noted a call to a couple functions having to do with [FOAF](http://www.foaf-project.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), in particular `function loadFOAF( )` and `function receivedFOAF( html )`. I talked to [Tantek](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) about this and apparently it had to do with some misbegotten effort to bring FOAF support to Safari but that it was effectively stillborn for reasons I can't recall, but what was interesting was that, tucked away, I discovered a seemingly orphaned file called [Friends.html](///System/Library/Frameworks/PubSub.framework/Versions/A/Resources/PubSubAgent.app/Contents/Resources/Friends.html) (again, Leopard only). This got me curious. I started poking around the PubSub.framework for other clues... (And so you know, the Leopard PubSub.framework is effectively [a system-level toolkit for subscribing to RSS and ATOM feeds](http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306870&ref=chrismessina.me) and maintaining read/unread status universally — something that Windows Vista also [apparently has](http://blogs.msdn.com/rssteam/archive/2006/12/04/windows-vista-and-feeds.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me). In any case it's pretty cool, and it's also new with Leopard). So, after poking about, I eventually ended up here: `/System/Library/Frameworks/PubSub.framework/Versions/A/Headers` Within this directory is a file called [PSAuthor.h](http://developer.apple.com/documentation/InternetWeb/Reference/PubSubReference/PSAuthor/Classes/PSAuthor%5F/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and its contents are *quite* intriguing. The file describes a class of object called `ABPerson` (short for "Address Book person"). The various properties of an "ABPerson" are summarily listed, primarily [pulled from the ATOM spec](http://atompub.org/2005/07/11/draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.html?ref=chrismessina.me#rfc.section.4.2.1): things such as [name](http://developer.apple.com/documentation/InternetWeb/Reference/PubSubReference/PSAuthor/Classes/PSAuthor%5F/CompositePage.html?ref=chrismessina.me#//apple%5Fref/occ/data/PSAuthor/name), [email](http://developer.apple.com/documentation/InternetWeb/Reference/PubSubReference/PSAuthor/Classes/PSAuthor%5F/CompositePage.html?ref=chrismessina.me#//apple%5Fref/occ/data/PSAuthor/email) and [URL](http://developer.apple.com/documentation/InternetWeb/Reference/PubSubReference/PSAuthor/Classes/PSAuthor%5F/CompositePage.html?ref=chrismessina.me#//apple%5Fref/occ/data/PSAuthor/URL). There is *also* a conspicuous method at the end of the file called `person`, which is not listed in the docs, and which is apparently *used to associate an author of a web feed with a person from the Apple Address Book*. This is huge. Let me pull the method in its entirety: Note the discussion: *In the future, this method may attempt to locate a default `ABPerson` by looking up the email address or URL in the Address Book.* This means that Apple intends (or at least as far as I can make out from reading the tea leaves) to use the Address Book as a store for feed authors... and that — who knows — you may end up using your Address Book to read feeds from so-called "ABPersons" or, moreover, their interest in FOAF might have been a means to automagically grab your list of friends (say, from LiveJournal) to populate your Address Book — *then*, using ATOM discovery and the PubSub.framework, could have pulled in feed updates from all your friends, giving you effectively a local social network that could power — who knows what kinds of applications! [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2014006438/?ref=chrismessina.me)In any case, I could be totally off here, but there's something in this... could it be somehow related to the Mail.app feedreader functionality? I'll offer one more hint that seems to suggest that my [Coverflow for People](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/11/06/coverflow-for-people/?ref=chrismessina.me) idea isn't too far off... If you take a look deep in the QuickLook.framework directory you'll find a couple of very curious images: Vcard16.png, Vcard32Base.png, Vcard32Border.png, Vcard128Base.png, Vcard128Border.png, Vcard512Base.png and Vcard512Border.png. There aren't any other filetype-specific graphics in this directory, and yet QuickLook is useful for all kinds of files across the OS. Is it significant then, when I browse the [Address Book Metadata](//~/Application Support/AddressBook/Metadata) that I get cards like this?[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/2013279743/?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Tom](http://thedeplorableword.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-14 00:10:27 I don't think that using AddressBook to store the location of a feed indicates that AddressBook could become a feed reader, I think this probably has more to do with .Mac + iLife. iPhoto has options for subscribing to photocasts (aka feeds), which from what I can remember, you had to add manually. If AddressBook had a list of feeds (photocasts) then a feed reading application could be autopopulated Still it's interesting stuff. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-14 00:14:05 @Tom: Well, I guess I'm mostly interested in the notion of a "person" showing up in the PubSub framework... especially since there's this notion of a feed being authored by a person, and then using FOAF to identify your friends by URL... it's just all too convenient with a locus of the Address Book to seem accidental... but yeah, the integration of feeds in iTunes, iPhoto and iLife is a good one...! **[Gernot](http://www.poetsch.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-14 00:30:38 There might be more to PubSub than Apple has released. Ever wondered about the name? "Publish and Subscribe"? **[Integriert Apple soziale Features in Leopard? : agenturblog.de](http://www.agenturblog.de/2007-11/integriert-apple-soziale-features-in-leopard/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-14 00:58:38 \[...\] Chris Messina hat im aktuellen Code von Leopard gestĂśbert und einige Hinweise auf soziale Features und ein Cover Flow fĂźr Freunde entdeckt. HĂśrt sich interessant an! \[...\] **[Anonymous](http://decafbad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-14 07:47:11 There actually is some FOAF in Safari for feed reading, and it's not Leopard only. That is, I've seen this in Tiger also. Try visiting something like a LiveJournal feed in Safari: http://deus-x.livejournal.com/data/atom In the right-hand column, toward the bottom, you should see a "Friends" section after a few seconds. That's Safari actually chasing down my LJ FOAF file and pulling out my contacts. Not entirely all that useful, but it's there. **[l.m.orchard](http://decafbad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-14 07:54:47 For what it's worth, that last anonymous comment was me. And here's a Safari screenshot: http://decafbad.com/2007/11/friends.jpg **[Buzz Andersen](http://buzz.vox.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-17 08:09:16 I'd go with the "remnants of a good idea" theory. **[a work on process » links for 2007-11-18](http://jystewart.net/process/2007/11/links-for-2007-11-18/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-17 20:20:49 \[...\] Apple source code pointing to social features? | FactoryCity Hints that apple have been working with foaf and may be connecting up their underlying rss/atom infrastructure across apps like Address Book. (tags: apple foaf leopard osx socialnetworking) \[...\] **[Ryan Price](http://ryanpricemedia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-20 08:15:45 What do you say we write a desktop app that does this? if Adium and iChat can store people's AIM names in your address book, then can't we store their web address and feed (is this a shortcoming of vCard?) in said database. How about a feedreader that tells me if the feed author is currently signed in to AIM (or IRC or Jabber or Skype)? ### Privacy, publicity and open data URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/privacy-publicity-and-open-data/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:26.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1976435084/?ref=chrismessina.me)This one should be a quickie. A fascinating article came out of CNN today: "[Intelligence deputy to America: Rethink privacy](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/11/terrorist.surveillance.ap/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me)". This is a topic I've had opinions about for some time. My somewhat pessimistic view is that [privacy is an illusion](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22wireless.html?ref=chrismessina.me), and that more and more historic vestiges of so-called privacy are slipping through our fingers with the advent of increasingly ubiquitous and promiscuous technologies, the results of which are not all necessarily bad (take a look at just how captivating the Facebook Newsfeed is!). Still, the more reading I've been doing lately about international issues and conflict, the more I agree with [Danny Weitzner](http://people.w3.org/~djweitzner/?ref=chrismessina.me) that there [needs to be a robust dialogue](http://people.w3.org/~djweitzner/blog/?p=98&ref=chrismessina.me) about what it means to live in a post-privacy era, and what demands we must place on those companies, governments and institutions that store data about us, about the habits to which we're prone and about the friends we keep. He sums up the conversation space thus: > Privacy is not lost simply because people find these services useful and start sharing location. Privacy could be lost if we don't start to figure what the rules are for how this sort of location data can be used. We've got to make progress in two areas:technical: how can users sharing and usage preferences be easily communicated to and acted upon by others? Suppose I share my location with a friend by don't want my employer to know it. What happens when my friend, intentionally or accidentally shares a social location map with my employer or with the public at large? How would my friend know that this is contrary to the way I want my location data used? What sorts of technologies and standards are needed to allow location data to be freely shared while respective users usage limitation requirements?legal: what sort of limits ought there to be on the use of location data?can employers require employees to disclose real time location data?is there any difference between real-time and historical location data traces? (I doubt it)under what conditions can the government get location data?There's clearly a lot to think about with these new services. I hope that we can approach this from the perspective that lots of location data **will** being flowing around and realize the the big challenge is to develop social, technical and legal tools to be sure that it is not misused. I want to bring some attention to his first point about the technical issues surrounding *New Privacy*. This is the realm where we play, and this is the realm where we have the most to offer. This is also an area that's the most contentious and in need of aggressive policies and leadership, because the old investment model that treats silos of data as gold mines has to end. I think [Tim O'Reilly](http://radar.oreilly.com/tim?ref=chrismessina.me) is really talking about this when he lambasts Google's OpenSocial, proclaiming, "[It's the data, stupid!](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/11/opensocial%5Fsocial%5Fmashups.html?ref=chrismessina.me)" The problem of course is what open data actually means in the context of user control and ownership, in terms of "licensing" and in terms of proliferation. These are not new problems for technologists as permissioning dates back to the earliest operating systems, but the problem becomes infinitely complex now that it's been unbounded and non-technologists are starting to realize a) how many groups have been collecting data about them and b) how much collusion is going on to analyze said data. (Yeah, those discounts that that Safeway card gets you make a lot more money for Safeway than they save you, you better believe it!) With Donald Kerr, the principal deputy director of national intelligence, taking an equally pessimistic (or Apocalyptic) attitude about privacy, I think there needs to be a broader, eyes-wide-open look at who has what data about whom and what they're doing about — and perhaps more importantly — how the people about whom the data is being collected can get in on the game and get access to this data in the same way you're guaranteed access and the ability to dispute your credit report. The same thing should be true for web services, the government and anyone else who's been monitoring you, even if you've been sharing that information with them willingly. In another post, I talked about the value of this data — calling it "[Data Capital](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/16/data-capital-or-data-as-common-tender/?ref=chrismessina.me)". People need to realize the massive amount of value that their data adds to the bottom line of so many major corporations (not to mention Web 2.0 startups!) and demand ongoing and persistent access to it. Hell, it might even result in *better* or *more accurate* data being stored in these mega-databases! Regardless, when representatives from the government start to say things like: > Those two generations younger than we are have a very different idea of what is essential privacy, what they would wish to protect about their lives and affairs. And so, it's not for us to inflict one size fits all, said Kerr, 68\. Protecting anonymity isn't a fight that can be won. Anyone that's typed in their name on Google understands that. Our job now is to engage in a productive debate, which focuses on privacy as a component of appropriate levels of security and public safety, Kerr said. I think all of us have to really take stock of what we already are willing to give up, in terms of anonymity, but \[also\] what safeguards we want in place to be sure that giving that doesn't empty our bank account or do something equally bad elsewhere. ...you know that it's time we started framing the debate on our own terms... thinking about what this means to the Citizen Centric Web and about how we want to become the gatekeepers for the data that is both rightfully ours and that should willfully be put into the service of our own needs and priorities. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **George GWY3** ¡ 2007-11-11 22:04:55 Privacy is not one of our inalienable rights as americans. At least in these times when we are being attacked from within our own borders. Personally, I think Nobody has the right to participate in Any Crime. I also think we should have a national database of All personal DNA information. Would it not be in the american spirit, as our constitutional signers imagined a changing government to go with the times, to have America totally crime-free in the future. If we start Today, we will get it done, and if we start Tommorrow, well, theres always tommorrow.... **garryh** ¡ 2007-11-12 05:20:27 It always sounds so simple and safe to say that in order to protect us from the terrible people of the world we need to give up certain rights or face death. But it is not so simple, for example. Everyone who watches the series 24 seems to love when Jack Bauer essentially beats, tortures, or shoots a bad guy to spill his guts about some evil act about to transpire. Everybody loves Jack because he saves the day and those who love 24 cannot seem to separate what happens on TV series with the real world. In the real world the Jack Bauers do not always have the right man or women. Innocent people are tortured and killed on the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence. In the real world those who have taken an oath to represent us in government or sworn an oath to protect us are more often unethical, and immoral than the TV persona we would like to believe in. If a family member of yours wrote an e-mail to you telling you of a matter they were not proud of or hiding, say an affair, they're gay, that they bought/viewed some porn, or that they cheated their employer in some way, they are expecting a certain level of discreet privacy from you. Now say you decide to run for office, or run a business, and over time you become pretty influential. And let's say that you decide to take a stand against something that people with more money, power and influence than you are for. Out of no where comes a disclosure of the fact that you knew about the issue that your family member had confided in you. The scandal not only tears you down, it tears your family, and more specifically the family member with the secret down commits suicide. Your business closes up, your friends distance themselves, etc, etc. Think it can't happen? Take a look at the McCarthy era, blacklists, the secret files of the FBI's Edgar Hoover. Now imagine what is possible when the government can siphon all the electronic communications in the US and use powerful computers to do analysis creating massive files of those who had affairs, those who cheated on their taxes, those who have sexual fetishes, etc, etc. Now imagine that they want you to do something for them that you would normally tell them to get lost. Is all of your communications over the phone, the internet, and US mail squeaky clean. Or is there something somewhere that would cause you to blush, be ashamed, or be ridiculed? Would it be enough to make you conform to government demands against your will? No, there is no need for a new definition of privacy. What we really need is a new oath of office for all of our elected officials and government employees. It should go something like, I will defend the constitution, I will defend it ethically and morally, and if I am found to violate this oath in any manner I will face either the death penalty or life imprisonment dependingon on the severity of my offense. In China, a government official failed to protect the people, he was put to death. If government types are going to say we need to give up our privacy in order to be protected it seems fair to say that they should give up their lives if they fail to protect the people from corruption, and unethical and immoral acts by its elected and hired personnel. They want us to give up our privacy but they don't want to tell us how many people are Dick Cheney's staff, or even who. They won't tell us who was in a meeting 7 years ago with Cheney over a discussion about energy, somehting that has skyrocketed its costs. They lost e-mails of record which would show who knew about what when it comes to the Whitehouse outing of a CIA operative's real name, and who knew and orchestrated the firing of attorneys because they would not unethically protect republicans while manufacturing cases against democrats. As for Iraq and terroists. Iraq was invaded for oil, it had no ties to 9/11 nor Bin Laden. As for Bin Laden, Bush will never really seek to find him since he is of Saudi Royal Blood and the Bush Family is financially connected to the Royal Family. As for the risk of being attacked again and again, even Bin Laden sought to bring down only the World Trade Center and if we have the courage and will to see our government and certain oil interests in the real light of day we will discover that those who attacked us felt they were justified from decades of betrayal, exploitation, and our presence on holy land on foreign soil. We don't need a new definition of privacy, we need a new definition of what it means to be an ethical and moral government representative, corpoate leader, or all around American. Until that happens I don't want to hear about any American giving up his or her right to privacy. If yo want to end terror, end exploitation or in other words end trading beads for oil. All the promises of oil companies to help the countries they asked permission to take their oil have not been kept. If you want to end the anger and hatred in the world, you simply need to end the unethical and immoral running of the oil industry. **No Thanks** ¡ 2007-11-12 06:08:33 Not that the Authorotarian state as described in the previous response doesn't sound wonderful, but there are several safeguards built in that make Privacy a personal inalienable right. Despite the current Administrations machinations otherwise, the 4th amendment guarantees rights to privacy unless otherwise required as proved to a warrant issuing court. Proper usage of the First amendment requires certain levels of privacy in order for true freedoms of speech. religion, assembly, and press. Additionally, the SCotUS has ruled on more than one occassion that the 9th Amendment covers the right to privacy by citizens. Privacy is an intrinsic and fundamentally necessary right of a free society. Its horrible that you would give up your freedom and privacy to live in a police/nanny state. **bigmammal** ¡ 2007-11-12 08:29:58 "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" (James Madison) Americans now is a bunch of cowards - something that the Founders Fathers did not expect. **Thomas** ¡ 2007-11-12 10:04:33 Wow the first comment really scares the crap out of me that some people think that way. I don't know why people seem to think the government can protect you. Any reasonable person realizes that by the time the cops get to your house someone has already been killed or robbed. How anyone thinks giving up your address and your web-habits up to the government is going to make you any safer is beyond me. Its up to you to protect yourself and the more people that realize that the safer our society will be. **[alexpiner](http://augcogblog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-12 14:22:07 just a historical footnote: Robert Cailliau, co-inventor of the Web, felt that it was best WWW users should have the quivalent of a drivers licence **[Pascal Van Hecke - Daily Links » 2007 » November » 26](http://links.vanhecke.info/2007/11/26/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-26 16:44:00 \[...\] Privacy, publicity and open data “Privacy is not lost simply because people find these services useful and start sharing location. Privacy could be lost if we don’t start to figure what the rules are for how this sort of location data can be used.” Chris Messina (being too optimistic) (tags: privacy opendata dataportability dataownerschip attentiontrust chrismessina factoryjoe) \[...\] **[Hungry Blues › Privacy Matters](http://hungryblues.net/2008/01/20/privacy-matters/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-20 20:37:19 \[...\] been involved in developing standards and technologies for handling personal data on the internet, writes: My somewhat pessimistic view is that privacy is an illusion, and that more and more historic \[...\] ### Vulnerability in WP Super Cache v0.1 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/vulnerability-in-wp-super-cache-v01/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:25.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1924268081/?ref=chrismessina.me)Sometime yesterday morning I logged into my TextDrive account to make some more changes to my blog template and noticed two odd folders in my blog root directory called `rh4m4.t35.com` and `www.kolortavil.org`. I believe that the folders were empty, but nevertheless, it was clear that someone had broken into my site. I deleted the suspicious folders and quickly reviewed the changes I'd made the day before and realized that the culprit was probably [wp-super-cache](http://ocaoimh.ie/wp-super-cache/?ref=chrismessina.me), a [new WordPress plugin](http://ocaoimh.ie/2007/11/05/wordpress-super-cache-01?ref=chrismessina.me) that I'd installed the night before. I went ahead and disabled and then deleted the plugin (taking care to delete the `supercache` folder in `/wp-content/cache/`) and notified [Joyent customer support](https://customer.joyent.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([transcript and notes here](http://factoryjoe.pbwiki.com/Joyent20071107?ref=chrismessina.me)) and [Donncha Caoimh](http://ocaoimh.ie/?ref=chrismessina.me), the developer. I also [twittered about the incident](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/396188382?ref=chrismessina.me). Sometime later I saw that [Stephanie Sullivan](http://www.w3conversions.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) had [replied to me](http://twitter.com/stefsull/statuses/396379352?ref=chrismessina.me) letting me know that [Tiffany Brown](http://tiffanybbrown.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) was [having a similar experience](http://twitter.com/tiffanybbrown/statuses/396588652?ref=chrismessina.me) (though with [greater consequence](http://tiffanybbrown.com/2007/11/07/damn-my-vps-is-being-cracked/?ref=chrismessina.me)) and a report in the [WordPress forums](http://wordpress.org/support/topic/142480?replies=3&ref=chrismessina.me#post-645272). Both [Kristie Wells](http://twitter.com/kristiewells?ref=chrismessina.me) from Joyent and Donncha got back to me, the former confirming my suspicion that it was some kind of PHP Injection vulnerability and the latter asking for additional information. This morning I found [Chris Heilmann's](http://www.wait-till-i.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [post on the subject](http://www.wait-till-i.com/2007/11/08/wp-super-cache-cached-too-far-for-me-and-others/?ref=chrismessina.me) confirming my concerns: > ...Checking the folders created I found the same two injection attempts Tiffany mentioned. The caching allowed code injected as txt urls via “i” or “s” parameters to be executed. In my case I found that half my server was mirrored into the supercache folder in the plugin’s cache folder. Not good. I was happy to see that my etc folder and other more interesting bits were not reached yet before I deactivated the plugin. Right now I am playing grepmaster to see if there are some injections left. My action: deactived and deleted all caching plugins and their cache folders (best via SSH as FTP is a PITA with so many files). I've now been in touch with Barry from Automattic and have [followed up with Donncha](http://ocaoimh.ie/2007/11/08/donnchas-thursday-links-2007-11-07/?ref=chrismessina.me), who have both been very patient and helpful in parsing through my logs trying to replicate the vulnerability. The most likely culprit is an unquoted `ABSPATH` in v0.1 of the plugin. According to Donncha, "The `ABSPATH` part of the `WPCACHEHOME` definition could possibly have expanded when it was being written to the file. Unfortunately it wasn't quoted so that may have done strange things to other variables like `$cache_path`. Barry says that the problem, though annoying, is just a bug and was likely just a misdirected attack on potentially vulnerably Drupal sites and that it won't do more than create some benign directories in a WordPress install. Fortunately v0.3 of the plugin seems to have resolved the problem; meanwhile you can [download](http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/wp-super-cache/download/?ref=chrismessina.me) or [checkout](http://svn.wp-plugins.org/wp-super-cache/trunk/?ref=chrismessina.me) the latest development version that corrects the `ABSPATH` issue. I've written up my experience so far and let others know to watch out for irregularities if they choose to install the wp-super-cache plugin. I'm actually going to give the latest version another go and will report any problems here should I experience any. While I'm at it, I'd like to point out the important role that Twitter and personal blogs played in tracking this down; and that Joyent support, Barry from Automattic and Donncha himself all played supportive roles in resolving this issue. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Christian Heilmann](http://www.wait-till-i.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-08 23:50:53 I have to concur, Donncha has been very interested and helpful about this. I talked to the security experts at work about the attacks and they are very common these days. The best prevention is to turn off any passthru, exec or other shell extensions and disallow file loading from http. **[Donncha’s Friday Links at Holy Shmoly!](http://ocaoimh.ie/2007/11/09/donnchas-friday-links-2007-11-09/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-09 07:40:50 \[...\] is no vulnerability in WP Super Cache. Chris blogged about it after we spent a late night of debugging it until 1.30am. But \[...\] **[Greg Knaddison](http://knaddison.com/user/greggles?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-10 05:07:14 There's a remotely exploitable security hole that allows the installation of a shellbot and the best Barry can say is "just a bug" and "misdirected attack on potentially vulnerably Drupal sites". Way to ignore and redirect what seems clearly like a real problem with a WordPress plugin that was targetted itself. If you make a claim like "probably misdirected attack on Drupal" you should provide an in depth analysis that shows exactly why a script to exploit a Drupal vulnerability is in fact accidentally exploiting this wordpress vulnerability. **[WP Super Cache should be safe to use | Tummblr](http://www.tummblr.com/sitenews/wp-super-cache-should-be-safe-to-use/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-11 18:21:37 \[...\] directory but nothing more. That bug has been fixed. See Donncha’s official statement and Chris’s account of the bug and debugging process in more detail. Thanks, Donncha, for the speedy resolution of this \[...\] **[DG](http://www.ditii.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-03 16:39:27 Hello Chris, The vulnerability, you mentioned still exisits, even in the newest version 0.5.1\. I had seen similiar deeply nested folders in my root directory about 20 days ago. Since than, I'm checking all my template files and plugins, but couldn't find anything unusual. Today, I checked WordPress Super Cache, as it was the only plugin that was unleft and found the cause behind the vulnerability. After digging further, I came across your post, which confirmed the issue. DG... http://www.ditii.com/ **[DG](http://www.ditii.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-04 05:20:17 Chris, I've noticed similiar activites on my site about 20 days back, and since then, I was busy checking all my template/plugin files, but couldn't find any unusual thing therein. Yesterday, I was zeored on to WordPress Super Cache, as that was the only plugin left unchecked. Later on, further digging confirmed my doubt and also came across your post. I've written to donnacha on his email as well in your WordPress support forum thread about the vulnerability still exisiting in the latest version. DG... **[Randall Flagg](http://www.elrincondelgeek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-23 10:57:32 Does this bug still a problem? The Version: 0.9.4.3 is now on, but I think I had a vulnerabily over this plugin... I'm not sure, but I got an Exploit via ... nothing to worry to much. In windows Eset anti-virus marked my site as dangerous. (thou it could be some javascript I put there, somewhere I think, with the wp-super-cache let someone in) The Iframes where into de WP Core.. not in my template, so it was a real pain in the ass to now what the heck it was. Now I put in my site the SECRET\_KEY with a well password.. But, i activated again the wp-super-cache.. lets see what happends ### Coverflow for People URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/coverflow-for-people/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:24.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1897765646/?ref=chrismessina.me)Ever since [Apple bought Coverflow](http://theubergeeks.net/2006/09/12/apple-bought-coverflow/?ref=chrismessina.me), I thought that it would make an awesome interface for browsing people. In fact, I had previously designed "[people in the browser](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72057594068514811/?ref=chrismessina.me)" for Flock to look something like this in the early days: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/102993817/?ref=chrismessina.me)Of course, at the time, the design required a few things that we still lack, namely: 1) [bigger default personal photos or avatars](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/21/raising-the-standard-for-avatars/?ref=chrismessina.me), 2) [ubiquitous universal identifiers for people](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/31/opensocial-and-address-book-20-putting-people-into-the-protocol/?ref=chrismessina.me) (this was before [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)) 3) and free access to [public data about people](http://willnorris.com/2007/11/hcard-is-not-a-provisioning-engine-for-private-data?ref=chrismessina.me), typically [found at the end of those identifiers](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/11/01/hcard-for-openid-simple-registration-and-attribute-exchange/?ref=chrismessina.me). Anyway, CoverFlow for people is something that I think could be a very powerful way of revealing "the ghosts in the machine" — across Leopard — or in interfaces generally. Imagine this kind of view showing up in Mail.app, [Adium](http://adiumx.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), iChat... where your friends, family and the rest get to update their own user pictures on a whim, and set their status and contact preferences in a way that visually makes sense. The new integrated Gtalk features in Gmail seem to be [prioritizing your "Top 250"](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1896929610/?ref=chrismessina.me), so this is also something that could be added to the People Coverflow API without much trouble in order for the interface to scale accordingly. Anyone able to hack up a demo of this idea? --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Brian McNitt](http://mcnitt.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 21:17:55 Great idea, Chris. Coverflow would also be an excellent way to browse photos and albums in iPhoto and on the iPhone. Kind of surprised it hasn't happened already! **[Jeremy Botter](http://jbotter.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 22:43:45 This is a fantastic idea. It's one of those rare times when I wonder why something isn't already a part of OSX. I'd love to have the feature on my iPhone even more than OSX -- it seems tailor-made for it. I could Cover-Flow through my address book and use face recognition instead of names -- would work perfectly for people you meet at conferences. **[Sam Sethi](http://sam.sethi@blognation.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-07 01:13:31 This is an awesome thought Chris. **[jon moss](http://www.theappleofmyi.com/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-07 03:15:48 Intuitive and useful. I bet someone can do this! Would look great on the iPhone for calling people. **[Hawk Wings » Blog Archive » Coverflow for People: A good idea](http://www.hawkwings.net/2007/11/08/coverflow-for-people-a-good-idea/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-07 06:14:33 \[...\] a post on his web site , Chris Messina wonders why Apple doesn’t extend its Coverflow technology as a way of \[...\] **[Jamie Phelps](http://www.jamiephelps.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-07 06:31:30 Chris, I think this is a good idea, but I would amend it slightly. I don't think it is a good thing for people to be able to change their picture in my Coverflow for People. Why? Two reasons: 1) It could hurt usability. The purpose of pictures is to aid me in accessing my data. If someone changes their picture on me and I go looking for them, I'm looking for that old picture. Now, I might remember they were between Bob and Susie, and recognize that they changed the picture, but it's needless hassle. I should be in control. 2) Imagine if I'm in your Coverflow for People and I change my picture to something hilarious but wildly inappropriate or offensive to you. That could cause some real problems. Both of these issues, I think, inform the inclusion of the "Always use this picture" option in iChat. Because I want to be able to recognize you when I need to and because I don't care if you <4 the new Backstreet Boys album. I don't want to see your love professed in your buddy icon. But, overall I think this is a fantastic idea. Perhaps the system could alert you to changes and ask if you would like to keep them? That might be a nice middle ground. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-07 08:53:23 @Jamie: I agree in principal, but I think something more balanced like Gmail's "Use default or upload a photo for this person" approach would be better. I completely hear what you're saying about having an identifiable icon for someone that doesn't change; OTOH, humans are actually really good at recognizing the same person in different photographs (much better than computers at least). You can imagine people taking photos of themselves with Photobooth, uploading them and having them fill your address book automatically (especially where you might not have any photos). It seems like it would add a nice human/social element to your desktop experience. All the same, I do agree that, like iChat, you could have the ability to override or turn off externally-provided photos. I just think it'd be pretty awesome if this idea were possible as it would really bring your address book to life. **[Jamie Phelps](http://www.jamiephelps.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-07 10:49:15 Good call, Chris. My last word on the thing is that people suck at playing nice. In looking just at my iChat buddy list, I see the Leopard X icon, a Powerpuff Girl, a flower, and a couple of default icons just from the six people that are online. I don't trust most people to give me a picture is actually a picture of them and not asinine. But having an option to override should mollify my misgivings. Alliteration FTW\~! **Joe Quartson** ¡ 2007-11-07 11:26:22 Great idea, would bring the iphone and the address book to life! **[electric weekend – Coverflow for People | FactoryCity](http://phil.electricweekend.com/2007/11/07/coverflow-for-people-factorycity/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-07 14:22:41 \[...\] An interesting feature suggestion for Address Book. Basically, Coverflow. It’s in Leopard in a bunance thanks to it’s inclusion in Finder and to be honest I’m quite surprised it isn’t there already. It would certainly make sense to have it there. At least as far as I can tell, based on my only experience with it in iTunes. \[...\] **[Tom](http://thedeplorableword.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-08 01:37:37 I tried to hack together something using the CovertFlow example with the leopard developer tools, shame I don't know enough about Cocoa. In theory it would be pretty easy to do, the CovertFlow sample does all of the fancy cover flow drawing, you'd just need to pull out the right directory and grab their details from the address book, maybe it could work as an address book plugin. e.g. another view in next to the two address book icons. show groups & members, show selected card, show people flow. I don't think the icon thing would be a problem, if you imagine one side of the icon could be your icon for them, and the other side could be their icon for them. It could flip around when you switch between them. **[A Frog in the Valley » So many tabs, so little time!](http://www.afroginthevalley.com/2007/11/09/so-many-tabs-so-little-time.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-09 05:51:40 \[...\] Coverflow for People | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Chris Jay](http://chrisfjay.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-10 03:22:30 Right - coverflow is a user interface for navigating any list, not just album covers. So it should be brought to the web. How about a CSS display:coverflow style for HTML select elements? You can already add background images to HTML option elements - see http://technology.amis.nl/blog/?p=994\. It's just a question of displaying them right :) **[blognation Germany » Blog Archive » MediaEvent Slideflow Uses SilverLight to Copy Coverflow](http://de.blognation.com/2007/11/14/mediaevent-slideflow-uses-silverlight-to-copy-coverflow/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-13 16:08:54 \[...\] fact other people like Chris Messina have even thought that Apple’s Coverflow would make an awesome interface for browsing \[...\] **[Coverflow for more than Music, People and pictures too? : Noheat - Tech News thats too Cool](http://www.noheat.com/2007/11/16/coverflow-for-more-than-music-people-and-pictures-too/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-16 10:10:53 \[...\] Check it out \[...\] **[Integriert Apple soziale Features in Leopard? : agenturblog.de](http://www.agenturblog.de/2007-11/integriert-apple-soziale-features-in-leopard/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-18 12:47:28 \[...\] hat im aktuellen Code von Leopard gestĂśbert und einige Hinweise auf soziale Features und ein Cover Flow fĂźr Freunde entdeckt. HĂśrt sich interessant \[...\] **regina** ¡ 2008-03-27 12:01:20 looking at your mock also reminds me of an idea i had: fame / "credits" for web developers. everyone who designed/developed a site could attach photodata (with link to their portfolio or personal url) to the site credits, which could be toggled on or off in browser like the image above, except instead of your contacts, it would be "chris, java programmer; ruth, css; jeremy, front end dev" etc. :) decentralized, disseminated, interest based social networking that happens right in the browser. **[Embracing Coverflow](http://www.allaboutiphone.net/2008/05/embracing-coverflow/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-20 05:57:50 \[...\] article was inspired by the original Coverflow for People post at http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/11/06/coverflow-for-people/ (from where I also pinched and used the \[...\] **[Overflow of Cover Flows « Alt+Tabs of the Mind](http://ashim.wordpress.com/2008/09/02/overflow-of-cover-flows/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 09:21:54 \[...\] technology in every upcoming phone of theirs. Faces are great to watch in a cover flow format, as mentioned elsewhere \[...\] ### Apple Tablet Concept: the iPad Touch URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/apple-tablet-concept-the-ipad-touch/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:53.000Z I don't really do much industrial design (there's probably a good reason for that) but I couldn't get over a niggling (though probably baseless) inkling that Apple will be coming out with a tablet this spring. I mean, if anyone can ship a tablet that's *not* lame, it'll be Apple. Besides that, there's [just](http://hrmpf.com/wordpress/48/new-apple-patents/?ref=chrismessina.me) [too](http://hrmpf.com/wordpress/84/apple-patent-app-touch-sensitive-ipod-with-multiple-touch-sensitive-surfaces?ref=chrismessina.me) [much](http://hrmpf.com/wordpress/54/touch-sensitive-ipod/?ref=chrismessina.me) [evidence](http://hrmpf.com/wordpress/51/apple-multipoint-touchscreen/?ref=chrismessina.me) out there that suggests [rather convincingly](http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/06/03/02/apple%5Femployees%5Ffile%5Ffor%5Fwide%5Ftouchpad%5Fpatent.html?ref=chrismessina.me) that Apple intends to put one out sooner or later ([not that they haven't tried before](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%5FNewton?ref=chrismessina.me)), so rather than sit around and wait, I thought I'd [mockup](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157602924070177/?ref=chrismessina.me) what one of these devices might look like: [](http://flickr.com/photo%5Fzoom.gne?id=1866330344&size=o&context=set-72157602924070177&ref=chrismessina.me)Here it is with the [*touch* keyboard](http://flickr.com/photo%5Fzoom.gne?id=1866330344&context=set-72157602924070177&size=l&ref=chrismessina.me): [](http://flickr.com/photo%5Fzoom.gne?id=1866330344&context=set-72157602924070177&size=l&ref=chrismessina.me)[With a wireless keyboard](http://flickr.com/photo%5Fzoom.gne?id=1865725443&size=l&context=set-72157602924070177&ref=chrismessina.me): [](http://flickr.com/photo%5Fzoom.gne?id=1865725443&size=l&context=set-72157602924070177&ref=chrismessina.me)And [with CoverFlow™](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1865501637/in/set-72157602924070177/?ref=chrismessina.me): [](http://flickr.com/photo%5Fzoom.gne?id=1865501637&context=set-72157602924070177&size=l&ref=chrismessina.me)So, there were some other ideas I had about this too that venture into the realm of pure conjecture. I mean, I could have just blogged these ideas without pictures, but I think it's certainly more compelling *with* them. Anyway: - The OS will actually use the same OS as the iPhone. I mean why else would they invest so much in a paired down OS if they're only going to use it on one platform? Ludicrous! Instead, this device will basically be a glorified iPhone, just 2.5x the size. Here's the kicker : the iPhone SDK was delayed in order for 1) Leopard to come out (so you wouldn't write Tiger-apps for the iPhone) and 2) because this device will launch at MacWorld, and the iPhone SDK will work for the Apple iPad Touch as well. Pretty clever eh? - Just like the name implies, and just like its cousin the [iPod Touch](http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/?ref=chrismessina.me), this device is all about tactile user interface. There's no solid state keyboard on this bad boy. Instead, it's a pure software keyboard, able to be gloriously adapted and regiggered to fit the task at hand, or able to have key identifiers in any language imaginable. Heck, you could even have a Halo-specific keyboard with specific buttons for each type of grenade. - To add an additional [Minority Report](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority%5FReport%5F%28film%29?ref=chrismessina.me)\-quality to this device, Apple will probably introduce their own software-driven version of the clickwheel, and it'll probably look something like the [QuickSilver constellation](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/97265944/?ref=chrismessina.me) [menus](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/97265926/?ref=chrismessina.me) or the new [Sapiens app](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1488798048/?ref=chrismessina.me). This interface will be necessarily for navigating around without a Dock and without having to return to the home screen. And, don't forget [how good CoverFlow looks at larger sizes](http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/macosxhints/2007/11/big105icons/index.php?ref=chrismessina.me). - Although this device [wouldn't have a CD or DVD slot](http://9to5mac.com/no-dvd-in-the-new-macbook-253453425?ref=chrismessina.me), it would still be an excellent device for [movie playback](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1869435324/?ref=chrismessina.me) (for all the movies you buy from the iTunes store, of course!). Imagine being cramped in an airplane seat — no more dinky iPod Video... and no more awkward 15" laptop. You get a perfectly mobile, conveniently flat device for even the seats with the *least* legroom. - [](http://www.unwiredview.com/2007/01/25/apple-wants-to-make-mac-book-smaller-by-putting-optical-disc-drive-at-the-bottom/?ref=chrismessina.me)Speaking of the lack of optical drive (well, the [bottom-loader theory](http://www.unwiredview.com/2007/01/25/apple-wants-to-make-mac-book-smaller-by-putting-optical-disc-drive-at-the-bottom/?ref=chrismessina.me) is interesting)... this device is all about wireless, just like the iPod Touch. Fortunately it has all the same ports as the MacBook Pro, but is only as thick as the lower part of that system, given that the screen is just a thin layer above the inner workings. - There's no mouse or touch pad on this device (though you can add a mouse via Bluetooth or USB). As with the Touch series, you interact with everything directly, rather than having the traditional out-of-body pointer experience. - Dashboard Widgets really get their due here with a souped up WebKit rendering engine — supporting [CSS animation](http://webkit.org/blog/138/css-animation/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [transforms](http://webkit.org/blog/130/css-transforms/?ref=chrismessina.me), [downloadable fonts](http://webkit.org/blog/124/downloadable-fonts/?ref=chrismessina.me), [offline storage](http://webkit.org/blog/126/webkit-does-html5-client-side-database-storage/?ref=chrismessina.me) (for those airplane rides, again) and SVG, not to mention a lot of Core Animation goodness. And yes, with the SDK, native apps will of course be possible. - Losing the optical drive helped another area that rocks with this device: battery life. It'd say 12 hours without too much trouble, thanks too to converting to [flash drives](http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060106-5921.html?ref=chrismessina.me). So that's about it. Part of this exercise was just to come up with a bunch of random ideas and see what other people think or what they want from an Apple tablet. If you ask me, less is more here; I don't want just another Windows-style tablet with all the bells and whistles. I actually *like* my iPhone better *without* third-party apps. If Apple's going to build the Apple iPad Touch (or whatever better name they come up with), I expect nothing less than a slick, streamlined experience that feels less like a computer and more like a *lifestyle object*. Oh, and one more thing. ;) This baby will retail at $699 for 32GB and $899 for 64GB (remember, [flash drives are still pricey](http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,125038/article.html?ref=chrismessina.me)) available immediately (well, if I were speaking at [MacWorld 2008](http://www.macworldexpo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) it would be...). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Edwin Khodabakchian** ¡ 2007-11-05 01:59:34 I want one! **Sean Reilly** ¡ 2007-11-05 07:36:10 But what can it do that an iPhone can't (or couldn't without a bit more software)? Seems like it would be wedged between the iPhone and MacBook. But the MacBook can do so much more for a comparable price and the iPhone does almost as much. I think the iPhone itself could end up being this device if you add a BT keyboard and open up 3rd party development. **[Will Norris](http://will.norris.name/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 08:16:57 Very nice, and quite plausible. :) One thing to note is that I don't think it would ever have "Touch" in the name. The "iPod Touch" is only named so in order to differentiate it from the "iPod Classic", in the same way that there was once an "iPod Video" which later simply became the "iPod" when they phased out the non-video model. Since there is no previous table product to differentiate from, Apple would surely go for the simplest name possible. **[Julian Schrader](http://julianschrader.de/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 08:58:16 Very nice post! Dugg this: http://digg.com/apple/Apple\_Tablet\_Concept\_the\_iPad\_Touch **Dan** ¡ 2007-11-05 09:14:17 What would be amazing is if the device had a camera which projected an input device onto a surface. A bit like your keyboard picture above. So u put the device vertical and then a camera like an inbuilt isight projects an input device onto the desk. In theory it could project anything. A massive touchpad, a chessboard, an abacus, calculator etc. etc. and it uses some amazing technology to recognize where ure hands are. **[Todd](http://www.mycuriouslife.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 09:43:39 Great stuff, Chris! A stand to hold it as a fixed display with a built-in charger, plus extra USB/Firewire ports would be excellent. I'd love to see a software package from Apple, too, that would be good for sketching/design thrown on there for good measure. A combination Illustrator/Visio/Sketchpad app. Obviously, though, don't [send it to Apple in a letter](http://www.macnn.com/articles/06/04/17/apple.makes.girl.cry/?ref=chrismessina.me). They'd only break your heart. :-) **[Incremental Blogger » Blog Archive » What an Apple Tablet might look like.](http://www.lorenheiny.com/2007/11/05/what-an-apple-tablet-might-look-like/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 10:01:49 \[...\] Chris Messina takes a stab at what an Apple Tablet might be like. Yep, it’s a slate and it’s heavy on touch. \[...\] **[Kent Brewster](http://kentbrewster.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 10:05:55 What would cause me to switch to a Mac would be if the space where the touchpad currently is became an empty hole where I could snap in my iPhone or iTouch. I'd use it as a touchpad on the Mac, fling stuff back and forth from one to the other, and then take it with me when I was done. **[SlashChick](http://www.slashchick.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 10:49:18 Why would you wait for Apple to come up with this? If you want a small tablet with lots of battery life, there's the Nokia N810 for $479, available this month: http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/nokia-n810-gets-official/ And if you want a larger tablet, there are plenty to choose from, including the one I carry daily -- a Thinkpad X60 tablet, which is 3 pounds (no optical drive) and has over 5 hours of battery life. I just don't see why it's necessary to pine for Apple in this field when there are plenty of good competitors already. **[The Tablet PC / Ultra-Mobile PC News and Reviews Source - Mocked Up Apple Tablet](http://www.gottabemobile.com/MockedUpAppleTablet.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 14:21:32 \[...\] I keep saying all that what I’m seeing in Apple’s UI that it sure feels like they are headed towards a touch-centric tablet sooner rather than later. Chris seems to agree. For more pictures and more rationale check out Chris’s blog here. \[...\] **[Mocked Up Apple Tablet - Pocket.Net - Mobile 2.0](http://www.pocket.net/blogs/pocketnet/archive/2007/11/05/mocked-up-apple-tablet.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 14:37:58 \[...\] I keep saying all that what I’m seeing in Apple’s UI that it sure feels like they are headed towards a touch-centric tablet sooner rather than later. Chris seems to agree. For more pictures and more rationale check out Chris’s blog here. \[...\] **Chris** ¡ 2007-11-05 18:55:53 Hi, You seem to have forgoten quite an important peace of technology on this device: built-in iSight camera. Now that would make for an impressive portable videoconferencing system... **[Apple: Apple iPad Touch Tablet Mock-Up Is Shiny, iPhone-y](http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/gizmodo/full/~3/180412411/apple-ipad-touch-tablet-mock+up-is-shiny-iphone+y-319299.php?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 23:02:36 \[...\] if less reflective, name in our book. Another shot after the jump or scope the rest over there. \[Factory Joe via Gadget \[...\] **Jonathan** ¡ 2007-11-05 23:35:36 I really like your renderings. Your idea of the iPad Touch being a bigger iPhone/iPod Touch is interesting. A $700-800 price point is extremely unrealistic. It would probably parity the Windows Tablet PC prices, just be a better value. However, I don't think its likely that Apple would expect people to dole out $1500-2000 for a tablet PC with a stripped down iPhone Leopard OS X. It would make more sense that it would operate a full blown Leopard install with an add-on touch package to allow for multi-touch and supporting utilities. I agree that it would be only one spindle (no optical drive) and it would be nice to support SSD flash based HDD, albeit an expensive option. It makes sense that this ultra portable product would be the first to incorporate new power saving technology and supports the idea that it would have a Macbook Pro class price point. They would probably approach Foxconn for the production like their other laptops. The screen will likely use the 13.3" panels and Santa Rosa chipset from Macbooks to leverage their supply chain. Probably using the ULV versions of the Core 2 Duo. I picture Apple providing a dock/cradle that the Touch device could sit in to use with a keyboard. The next iMac could closely resemble this product. Perhaps an iMac Touch that could be angled and lowered act like a Wacom tablet for input. Would you be willing to do another example with the Leopard desktop overlaid on your iPad Touch rendering? Again, great job and nice speculation. Jon **[Blog - iPod iPhone informacje … » iPad Touch](http://www.ipod.info.pl/index.php/ipad-touch/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 00:57:51 \[...\] tabletu lub UMPC. Pisa?em ju? nawet o podobnych koncepcjach. Pewien cz?owiek prowadz?cy stron? http://factoryjoe.com poszed? dalej i zaprojektowa? dla Apple urz?dzenie pod nazw? iPad Touch. Wg. Niego \[...\] **[Dave](http://www.american-in-jordan.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 03:54:38 For the love of all that is good and holy, please add punctuation to the touch keyboard, especially if there is room. Why tap 6 times in order to type an elipses (...)? **[An American in Jordan » Blog Archive » Apple Tablet Concept: iPad Touch](http://www.american-in-jordan.com/index.php/2007/11/06/apple-tablet-concept-ipad-touch/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 04:08:55 \[...\] concept specs over at Factory Joe seem to be realistic (as far as concepts go, anyway). I would love to see more robust storage \[...\] **[Apple Tablet PC Mockup | Mac With Ink](http://macwithink.com/index.php/2007/11/06/apple-tablet-pc-mockup/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 06:27:43 \[...\] Check out more pictures here \[...\] **jomy** ¡ 2007-11-06 07:00:07 I like your concept however I see two distinct Tablets type computers in Apple's future. 1) Is similar to what you have shown. mobile OSX, larger touchscreen and taking it's design ques from the iPhone. I believe Apple will market it as an eBook type device for passive entertainment (reading, browsing, watching, listening) 2) The second device is more like an UMPC and will run Leopard, use a stylus and take it's design cues from the new iMac. I believe Apple will market it as a productivity/creativity device for Getting Things Done(TM) and freedom to create anywhere(whip it out, take a photo, sketch an idea over it, add voice annotation and email it to a client). **[Rumor: Is this the iPhone Tablet to launch at Macworld? | Gadgetell](http://www.gadgetell.com/2007/11/rumor-iphone-tablet-launched-macworld/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 07:08:38 \[...\] \[Crave\] Concept Design \[factoryjoe\] Comment on this post | \[...\] **[Lloyd Budd](http://foolswisdom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 08:40:51 You probably made Boris Mann's day ;-) He has been predicting a tablet since we were in uni together ;-) **[iPad Touch Apple Tablet Can Be Apple’s Future - PMP Today](http://www.pmptoday.com/2007/11/06/ipad-touch-apple-tablet-can-be-apples-future/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 10:01:03 \[...\] \[via factoryjoe\] \[...\] **[Rumor, vuelve el Apple Tablet : planetamac](http://www.planetamac.es/rumor-vuelve-el-apple-tablet/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 13:43:00 \[...\] de Factory Joe vĂ­a TechDigest fresqui | menĂŠame | permalink | trackback \[...\] **[Geekninja » iTable ?](http://www.geekninja.com.br/2007/11/06/itable/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 14:37:04 \[...\] rumores e mais rumores, sobre um possĂ­vel Tablet Mac que estĂĄ sendo desenvolvido pela Asus juntamente com \[...\] **[T24 » Koncept: Apple iPad Touch alebo MacBook Touch?](http://www.t24.sk/2007/11/07/koncept-apple-ipad-touch-alebo-macbook-touch/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 15:14:31 \[...\] (zdroj a foto: FactoryCity) \[...\] **Kinowolf** ¡ 2007-11-06 17:47:58 Excellent mock-up, just throw a flip-out stand on the back and it's good to go. If I was Jony Ives I'd be knocking on your door right now. **[Onipresente » Blog Archive » Table Mac: ConcorrĂŞncia para Surface](http://www.onipresente.eti.br/tecnologia/table-mac-concorrencia-para-surface/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 19:28:36 \[...\] serĂĄ baseado em nada jĂĄ existente na Asus, mas num projeto completamente novo. JĂĄ existem atĂŠ conceitos do modelo do dispositivo. Embora exista, tambĂŠm, esse modelo da foto aĂ­ de cima que ĂŠ de Rainer \[...\] **[Novo produto da Apple: iPad Touch | Propaganda MT](http://www.propagandamt.com.br/mundomoderno/novo-produto-da-apple-ipad-touch-sera/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 19:50:31 \[...\] estar mais prĂłxima de anunciar seu novo produto: a Apple Tablet ou Tablet Mac. JĂĄ existe um mock-up do futuro sonho de consumo de muita \[...\] **[Inoffizielles Apple iPad Touch Tablet Konzept](http://www.mediauser.de/inoffizielles-apple-ipad-touch-tablet-konzept/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-08 10:40:46 \[...\] die Zukunft blicken lassen. Anstatt auf die ersten offiziellen Fotos zu warten, hat sich Chris von factoryjoe.com hingesetzt und ein mĂśgliches inoffizielles Konzept entwickelt. Dabei geht er vom Grunddesign \[...\] **[Clipset » Blog Archive » Apple tablet iPad, Âżalgo mĂĄs que un rumor?](http://www.clipset.net/2007/11/09/apple-tablet-ipad-%c2%bfalgo-mas-que-un-rumor/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-09 05:59:11 \[...\] de los rumores mĂĄs repetidos en el mundo Mac es el de un tablet, es decir un ordenador con pantalla tactil de reducidas \[...\] **[Carl Mercier](http://defensio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-10 20:35:30 This is gorgeous, in true Apple fashion! **[Platform Peace » Apple Tablet PC?](http://www.platformpeace.com/2007/11/11/apple-tablet-pc/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-10 21:09:28 \[...\] Newton), I would really be interested in an Apple tablet device. Here is a pretty nice mockup of an Apple tablet and the creator’s ideas look pretty good to me. I would like to see \[...\] **[Around the web | alexking.org](http://alexking.org/blog/2007/11/11/around-the-web?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-11 15:38:42 \[...\] Apple Tablet Concept: the iPad Touch | FactoryCity - nothing drives the fan boys crazy like concept mock-ups. \[...\] **[Mark Casey » Blog Archive » It's a big ass(us) iPhone](http://www.custompc.co.uk/blogs/markcasey/2007/11/20/its-a-big-assus-iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-20 07:00:10 \[...\] some idea as to what this would actually look like, then wait no more, as someone has already done some mockup designs on what they think the tablet either should or would look \[...\] **Optimusprime** ¡ 2007-12-06 14:39:52 Yo, dis pooch is off the chain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am gonna be the first to get one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am gonna get dis at mac world at the premiere! **lucas** ¡ 2008-01-21 21:59:57 this shit is fake mutha fuckas **[Mister Snitch](http://mistersnitch.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 15:32:33 Yeah, I think it would work with a wireless keyboard. That's cool. But how about the option to use a keyboard projected in front of you, as well? Every early adopter seen using THAT in a coffee shop will send a flood of new buyers to Apple. Everyone would want one. Gotta do the 'Air' thing. The unit's gotta be superlight and superportable. No internal drives, all Flash storage. It's a pad of paper, or Moleskine notepad, that you carry around easily, and it does everything you'd use the pad for, as well of course as everything an iPhone would do AND most things a laptop would do. I think you and I want the same product. But I really dig the projected keyboard part - that's pure marketing gold. And marketing needs to be a key feature of this device - as any former Newton owner will agree. **[Mister Snitch](http://mistersnitch.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 15:37:21 "I just don’t see why it’s necessary to pine for Apple in this field when there are plenty of good competitors already." Funny, that's what they said when the iPod came out. **[Mister Snitch](http://mistersnitch.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-25 15:41:45 "What would be amazing is if the device had a camera which projected an input device onto a surface." Didn't realize Dan had already mentioned this. Gotta give props. Also, the device has to be able to stand upright if a projected display is going to work. So some sort of stable and durable stand has to pop out of the back somehow. Ideally it would stand horizontally OR vertically, though I'd settle for just horizontal. **Name** ¡ 2008-05-28 02:52:12 This is great news, but what we need is a pocket PDA form factor. Not a 12-inch monster. Something like this, but with full Mac OS X inside, true FireWire, true Ethernet and true high-quality video out (both wired and wireless): OQO model e2 http://www.oqo.com What for? For this: 1\. Make a Keynote or PowerPoint presentation on your standard Mac. 2\. Save it to the Apple PDA. 3\. Carry only the PDA with you IN YOUR POCKET and use it as you would use a MacBook or other Mac to give the presentation in the classroom, scientific meeting, etc. Even the MacBook Air is too large and heavy for us. We need something much smaller and lighter with a full Mac OS X inside to run truly NATIVE Keynote and PowerPoint files. We need thousands for our University and we will pay whatever price for it. **SAS** ¡ 2008-06-28 19:03:24 Add these two additional functions and it's game over for sony, amazon, msft, etc. Handwriting rec: Nothing too fancy. Imagine taking all your notes in meetings, automatically filing by subject and wirelessly syncing Digital Ink: Not sure if possible but would be great to have digital ink as well as full LCD...you can't beet the resolution (and battery life) for reading books. That's all, two simple requests...and you've created the third definitive form factor. (it goes without saying, no word, excel, fancy email, etc...keep it really simple and tactile.) **[SelecciĂłn Digital» xataka.com » Rumores sobre un MacBook touch](http://www.selecciondigital.es/xatakacom/rumores-sobre-un-macbook-touch/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-22 09:23:39 \[...\] VĂ­a | MacDailyNews. Imagen de Factory Joe. \[...\] **[Rumores sobre un MacBook touch](http://www.xataka.com/2008/07/22-rumores-sobre-un-macbook-touch?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-22 09:39:53 \[...\] | MacDailyNews. Imagen de Factory Joe. ÂżRecomendarĂ­as este post? MĂĄs noticias sobre: PortĂĄtiles Tags: \[...\] **[Brian Hayashi](http://www.connectmenetworks.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-23 02:13:00 I envision something like the inexpensive netbook format popularized by companies like Asus and Everex. Asus is one of Apple's contract manufacturers and I have no doubt it is the vendor tasked with building this device. Given some of Oppenheimer's comments, I'm thinking the price is going to be the same as netbooks from HP but with dramatically better functionality...while I agree with your price points I believe Apple might go even lower to $499\. I previously worked for Dynamac, the first manufacturer of portable Apple computers. For more projected hardware and software specs, along with an analysis of pricing drivers see http://tinyurl.com/57fgm9 **[Rumores sobre um MacBook touch « Dedos no Teclado](http://dedosnoteclado.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/rumores-sobre-um-macbook-touch/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-23 04:04:53 \[...\] Imagem de Factory Joe. \[...\] **[Distant Rambler](http://distantrambler.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/194/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-24 04:48:45 \[...\] Factory Joe gives us his excellent vision of Apple Tablet in the furture iPad Touch \[...\] **[L’iPad Touch est une brillante tablette - Gizmodo - Tant d'amour pour ces fabuleux nouveaux gadgets, c'est surnaturel.](http://www.gizmodo.fr/2007/11/06/lipad%5Ftouch%5Fest%5Fune%5Fbrillante%5Ftablette.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-24 13:52:49 \[...\] sur un MacBook Touch. Mais si vous prĂŠfĂŠrez utiliser le clavier, il vous attend après le saut. \[Factory Joe via Gadget \[...\] **Clifford Carlton** ¡ 2008-07-24 16:00:04 I have seen this concept floating around the net for a while now. I love it. I would wait in line for however long it took to get one. I have been wanting a tablet PC for sometime now as my old Dell laptop is too heavy and just not convienent for me. I love my Iphone and stood in line for 3 hours for the 3G Iphone. Thanks for your great renderings. **FaX** ¡ 2008-08-22 10:21:50 Here it is: http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/rumor\_apples\_secret\_product\_is\_macbook\_touch/P100 Phone Pro: The full power of Leopard in your pocket. http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/gallery/image\_med/15417 http://www.ilounge.com/gallery/iphone\_concept/iphonePro2.jpg **FaX** ¡ 2008-09-27 08:21:42 Here it is: Next Apple moves will be Books and Games… http://spidouz.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/next-apple-moves-will-be-books-and-games/ **[Sam Johnston](http://samj.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-17 05:13:08 So it seems you beat me to this concept (right down to the name) by a cool 12-18 months. I'd been thinking about it for a while but my Photoshop skills were never good enough to put it on "paper". Anyway check it out: [Crystal Ball: Apple's $599 "iPad Touch" Netbook (with pictures)](http://samj.net/2009/03/crystal-ball-apples-599-ipad-netbook.html?ref=chrismessina.me)I didn't see yours before I developed this concept so that being the case it seems fairly likely that we're on the money (although iPad vs iPod could be confusing... I can't come up with a better name... iNet... iNote... iTablet... iSlate... etc.). Sam **Anon** ¡ 2009-03-17 09:12:21 @Sean "But what can it do that an iPhone can’t" Well you probably could write iPhone apps on it. Presently, the iPhone doesn't run like a full blown personal computer. (Full name used since even Apple has forgotten what PC means.) Directly install apps like you would on your Mac. **Steve T** ¡ 2009-04-29 13:02:40 Chris, Nicely Done! It exactly the same logic and image I would imagine, but rendered and explained much better than I ever could. I think your pricing is right on. I'm wondering whether or not the accessories world is planning on this, as it seem almost inevitable. I'm wondering if they'll offer as many ports, or stick with primarily USB/firewire. If more hardware mean more weight, it'll be a tricky balance to keep it sub-2lbs and still have a decent battery life (2+ hours). Looking forward to more of your ideas. Steve **Jim Smith JoĂŁo Pessoa, Brazil** ¡ 2009-05-06 06:17:52 With USB flash drives available up to 32 GB, an optical drive is unlikely. You could store any number of books and movies on one of these, no problem. The software keyboard is the best solution for manual input. Bottom line, WANT! WANT! WANT! **John Galt** ¡ 2009-05-07 13:19:51 It must come with nothing less that an OLED screen! If not, I am not going the extra dollars. **Jim Smith JoĂŁo Pessoa, Brazil** ¡ 2009-05-08 13:32:32 Why would we wait for Apple? To get the quality built into Apple hardware and software. All or the PCs I've owned, including an IBM laptop were a total POS next to my iMac. Even the keyboard is he best I've ever used. When it comes to software, Apple's is far more reliable and robust than most. True, they need to keep a rein on 3rd-party products, which they do pretty well. Even so, so shoddy stuff slips in from time to time. Often something horrible ported over from the PC side. Even more often, a Microsoft application that never worked well on the PC, either. Before you Mac bashers start in, be sure you have actually USED a Mac and that you can prove your contentions. I have been known to not play fair and insist on provable facts. Yes, that's dirty pool, but it's the way I play. :D **bigwang** ¡ 2009-06-03 08:27:04 All the Apple tablet wish lists in all the blogs I've read so far hasn't mentioned anything about heat issues. We all know that most of Apple's consumer-line of computing products (macbook, macbook pro, imac white/aluminum) suffer from massive heat issues. I would like to see Apple come up with a heat dissipation method that doesn't cause first-degree burns. **Jim Smith JoĂŁo Pessoa, Brazil** ¡ 2009-06-03 09:09:11 bigwang What heat issues? I have an iMac and it runs far cooler than any PC I have ever had. The cooling is so efficient that I cannot hear the fan while my wife's PC across the room can be heard two rooms away. Perhaps you are addressing a problem I have never seen on any Mac I have even owned? **[wey shen](http://www.weyshen.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-08-23 21:43:32 i think this is a bit fake but is da## fake **Ian Ward** ¡ 2009-08-25 12:54:15 Scrummy yummy !!! I want one NOW !!!!!!!! p.s. Will it fry eggs too ?? **[A history of the elusive Apple tablet, in links | Tech Sanity Check | TechRepublic.com](http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/hiner/?p=2290&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-10-05 03:45:16 \[...\] 5, 2007: Apple Tablet concept: the iPad Touch \[...\] **[20+ Creative & Beautiful Apple Concepts](http://techxav.com/2009/10/22/apple/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-10-21 22:17:12 \[...\] iPad Touch Concept by Chris Messina \[...\] **[The death of the URL | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/11/16/the-death-of-the-url/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-16 12:21:46 \[...\] thing is cool, I admit. The netbook/webbook market needs some design thinking. And heck, I’m as eager as anyone to see what Apple is going to do in this space, so I’m watching it closely… but \[...\] **[iTablet MacBook « Tabletized – Mac Tablets, iTablet, iBook, iSlate, iPad and touch devices](http://www.tabletized.com/2009/12/28/itablet-macbook/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-12-28 19:19:46 \[...\] by Chris Messina. Tags: apple, fake, Fun & Fake, funny, iBook, iPad, iPhone, iPod, islate, joke, mac, MacPad, \[...\] **wooki** ¡ 2009-12-30 17:25:47 The size is too big to handle it while mobile. Half size is prefer. **[Boys Like Toys](http://boysliketoys.wordpress.com/2010/01/19/274/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-19 02:39:13 \[...\] Apple iPad by Chris Messina imagines \[...\] **[Tablet, iSlate, iTablet, Slate, iPad? Wat maakt het uit](http://www.mobielnieuwsnet.nl/?p=9445&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-19 16:26:56 \[...\] 2007 verschenen al concept afbeeldingen van de iPad \[...\] **compulsionstar** ¡ 2010-01-21 12:02:22 what is the point of this? there was a demographic of graphic professionals that have been behind macs getting a tablet because of an all in one wacom graphics computer but this probably doesn't even skim the surface of what a wacom can do not to mention what a PC tablet can do. this just another gimmick people can check their facebook or write their 140 character or less tweet updates on. something they can fit in their line between their iphone and their lowest of the low macbook. I hope this bombs so Apple and shapes up. **sarah** ¡ 2010-01-22 06:05:42 i want one **[James Smith JoĂŁo Pessoa, Brazil](http://brazilbrat.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-22 09:12:22 "I hope this bombs so Apple and shapes up." Exactly how should Apple "shape up"? Let' see, Apple is one of the most successful companies in the world with some of the best ROI numbers anywhere. They have consistently released innovative products that are copied by competitors and the entire industry watches them to see which way to go next. Love them or hate them, you can't deny the facts. well, obviously YOU can. but they are still facts. **eMated** ¡ 2010-01-26 10:40:43 Hopefully it will have good printed and cursive handwriting recognition. With a stylus at the user's option. Hopefully it will have a stand for comfortable writing. Hopefully the battery life will be so good you can use it for days on end and recharge it only when it crosses your mind. Hopefully it will be light enough to carry 'everywhere' without fatigue. Hopefully it will be usable in the outdoors (in sunlight). In other words, hopefully it will be decent enough to replace the Newton MessagePad some of us have been using for years since nothing to-date has the above features. **[Mrs.MichaelDippolito](http://yahoo/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-27 10:59:15 Nice ! How much ? **Al Chang** ¡ 2010-01-27 12:29:49 Well, Chris, for a prediction two and a half years ago, pretty damn close down to the name and the prices. :-)! -Al **aape** ¡ 2010-01-27 13:21:49 Kudos. Well done. ..aape **[James Smith JoĂŁo Pessoa, Brazil](http://brazilbrat.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-27 13:40:07 So far, the iPad is a big disappointment. Despite the slick presentation, I don't see it doing anything that any decent tablet PC won't do, including my 10 y/o WalkAbout HH3\. Yes, the design is great and I'm sure the build quality is up to Apple's usual standard. But I can buy a newer tablet on eBay for less than half the price and get the same functionality. The best thing about it is the SSD and those will soon be an industry standard. Sorry Steve, you missed the target this time. **RK** ¡ 2010-01-27 14:20:28 You were pretty close!!! **Yikes** ¡ 2010-01-27 14:30:16 They should put a built in cam... This is just a way to make people want it, so they can keep making money. Pretty cool though? Totally contradicted myself there. lol **wateva** ¡ 2010-01-27 14:36:02 i want an i pad so much i would do anything for one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! **Caitlynn Edward Cull** ¡ 2010-01-27 15:35:35 I reallly luv this info because I want to get a iPad. I want to have an iPad sooooooooooo much that I would kiss the toilet to get one!!!!!!!!!!! **Kevin** ¡ 2010-01-27 17:55:20 So it's a data organizer, IPhone and basic toys? It looks like a few things blended together- aka a really big IPhone. Hardly the 'advancement' I was expecting. I would buy a notebook over this any day. **mygod** ¡ 2010-01-27 19:54:22 my god how close you were to the real thing. thats pretty good design right there. I think apple ripped u off. **exs120** ¡ 2010-01-27 21:34:39 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_R2Q74x1GLU **[christopher carfi](http://www.socialcustomer.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-27 22:58:50 nice shot, chris. way to nail this one from waaaaaay out. almost spot on with the pricing, too. well done. -cfc **liane** ¡ 2010-01-28 07:09:36 it sounds like a sanitary pad. i bet there were no women on the marketing team. oh dear. **[iPad? Of course I want one, but… « Technobabbles](http://technobabbl.es/2010/01/ipad-of-course-i-want-one-but/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-28 08:20:33 \[...\] devices are beautiful, amazing pieces of engineering (and it's interesting to note Chris Messina's hypothetical iPad Touch post from 2007, found on Twitter via @damon's timely tweet), but both are too limited and neither \[...\] **Ablai** ¡ 2010-01-28 08:36:47 I\`m so wont it! Who can write plus and minus of Ipad??? **Ned Hanlon** ¡ 2010-01-28 11:18:01 You were right. **[ash...](http://orkut/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-01-29 05:09:32 it is gud bt i phone is sme i think **Swavey Ladii** ¡ 2010-01-29 14:21:13 Its a giant iphone..i so want 1 tho!! **james braselton** ¡ 2010-02-02 10:42:10 hi there you missed apples big anouncment sorry too dissapont the $899 for 64 gb ssd flash drive 64 gb ssd flash drive is only $699 the 32 gb ssd for $599 and 16 gb ssd for only $499 sory that aple prices have fell too new lows **[Apple iPad](http://www.allipad.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-02-03 15:45:30 Must say that your concept is rather accurate. I do feel that the iPad could have more features, but I suppose that it would affect battery life. **james braselton** ¡ 2010-02-04 08:36:08 hi there wrong 64 gb for $699 and 32 gb for $599 and 16 gb for $499 **[abouttheiPad.com » Apple Tablet Concept: the iPad Touch](http://www.abouttheipad.com/2010/02/06/apple-tablet-concept-the-ipad-touch/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-02-07 01:33:29 \[...\] For example. Read it here. \[...\] **Sap** ¡ 2010-02-14 22:45:05 What about a webcam??? **[Michael iPhone Apps](http://www.appsnews.de/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-02-15 02:54:20 THe iPad will be a great technical toy for business people but the question is if normal people like you and me will buy this gadget? **Gabby** ¡ 2010-02-19 07:41:28 OMG!! Awesome!! I will have to save my babysitting money for 5 months!! **jimmy@aol.com** ¡ 2010-02-28 09:31:55 I think you and I want the same product. But I really dig the projected keyboard part – that’s pure marketing gold. And marketing needs to be a key feature of this device – as any former Newton owner will agree. **james braselton** ¡ 2010-03-02 07:14:43 hi there woundering if nasa is going be useing ipads on the deep space missions too the moon and mars and beyound or on the space station be great deep space computer internet uses very littel energy they can fill the 64 gb flash drive too 100% capacity before lunching in too deep space i bet nasa alread has a moon app and mars app for the ipad ipod touch **james braselton** ¡ 2010-03-03 10:21:06 hi there what you should be thinking do raly want all video and apps on a 3.5 inch screen or carry around a 5.3 pound macbook pro yes you can carry around a 10 pound 17 inch alien ware laptop or use a 2 inch motorola razer cellphone and if you want a extrealy big tablet why dont you just build a gaint 40 inch plasma tablet with touch screen and wight in at 100 pounds with 10 voloci-raptor hard drives at 10,000 rpms each in a raid for 100,000 rpms **james braselton** ¡ 2010-03-03 10:45:11 hi there yes i will buy an ipad i can see nasa useing the apple ipad useing these as star trek tablets on the deep space missions wich will reqier low powered consumption and high resolution screen and deep space map apps for the moon mars and beyound do any see the protental of exteratal et tablets **Kaue** ¡ 2010-03-04 07:45:49 Boy, you did got it way ahead, didn't you. So impressive! Congratulations, very well done. WoW! **james braselton** ¡ 2010-03-11 08:56:41 hi there you are right battery is 10 hours thanks too the flash drive and led screen and you are also wrong about the ipad a big iphone it runs a faster 1 ghz A4 cpu and did you forget too watch the hole video about the special ipad app store like the ibook store and iwork and the kindel dx cost $489 e-ink and only e-books no movies no youtube no vdieo no flash no html 5 video 4 gb of flash memory a 9.7 inch e-ink no mp3 no wave no qick time player also nintendo dsi and sony psp or psp go also dose not suport flash **[James Smith](http://brazilbrat.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-03-11 09:14:17 james braselton, If English is not your first language, my apologies. But if it is, your post is a terrible comment on your education or at least, the lack of it. First, English uses capital letters frequently, like at the start of a sentence. So do many other languages, you should try it, they are used for a reason. Also like other languages, English uses punctuation marks to make the writing more understandable. Finally, there are spell checkers available for free for almost application or system you might be using, Windows, Apple, or Linux. Using one also helps the readability and credibility of your text. When it looks as though it was written by a poorly-educated eight year-old, many people tend to discount anything it might say. Having said all of that, if I do understand what you meant, I think we agree. The Apple iPad is a waste. A used tablet or netbook will do more, do it for less, and do it better. Compared to ebook readers though, the iPad is a marvel. I have a ten y/o tablet PC (Walkabout HH3) that exceeds the iPad and any ebook reader for my ebooks, movies, games, and web surfing. Furthermore, I am not tied to Apple, Amazon, or anyone else to purchase content. Most of my 800+ ebooks were downloaded for free and they are mine to share, transfer or delete as I choose. No DRM or any other user-restricting nonsense. I've been a Macintosh user and fan for over 20 years, but the Apple iPad has a big worm in it. **bill** ¡ 2010-03-20 20:30:57 I usually don't post in Blogs but your blog forced me to, amazing work..beautiful ! **Justin** ¡ 2010-05-12 09:24:44 110 yd. touchdown pass. You hit it on the head. Only problem is that other products out there can do more for less, you just don't pay for the little apple logo. I love apple products but this should be a pass for most people that are business oriented. My phone does more for me than the ipad can at this point. So sad, so very, very sad. I still like the idea, I just want more functionality. Still it would be cool to hold one up to your ear and shout into it like on Upright Citizens Brigade ;) **Nefee** ¡ 2010-05-14 08:35:24 I like it but, I dont think the ipad is all that new.Its a oversized iphone,just cant call people from it i dont think. ### hCard for OpenID Simple Registration and Attribute Exchange URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/hcard-for-openid-simple-registration-and-attribute-exchange/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:24.000Z ![Microformats + OpenID](http://myskitch.com/factoryjoe/mf_openid-20071101-200559.png) One of the many promises of [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) is the ability to more easily federate profile information from an identity provider to secondary consumer applications. A simple example of this is when you fill out a basic personal profile on a new social network: if you've *ever* typed your name, birthday, address and your dog's name into a form, *why on earth* would you ever have to type it again? Isn't that what computers are for? Yeah, I thought so too, and that's why OpenID — your friendly neighborhood identity protocol — has two competing solutions for this problem. Unfortunately, both [Simple Registration](http://openid.net/specs/openid-simple-registration-extension-1%5F0.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (SREG for short) and its potential successor [Attribute Exchange](http://openid.net/specs/openid-attribute-exchange-1%5F0-07.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (AX) go to strange lengths to reinvent the profile data wheel with [their own](http://openid.net/specs/openid-simple-registration-extension-1%5F0.html?ref=chrismessina.me#response%5Fformat) [exclusive formats](http://www.axschema.org/types/?ref=chrismessina.me). I'd like to propose a vast simplification of this problem by adopting attributes from the [vCard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCard?ref=chrismessina.me) standard (also known as [RFC2426](http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2426?ref=chrismessina.me)). As you probably know, it's this standard that defines the attributes of the [hCard microformat](http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard?ref=chrismessina.me) and therefore is exceptionally appropriate for the case of OpenID (given its reliance on URLs for identifiers!). Very quickly, I'll compare the attributes in each format so you get a sense for what data I'm talking about and how each format specifies the data: | Attribute | SREG | AX | vCard | | ----------- | -------------------- | ----------------------- | --------------------------------- | | Nickname | openid.sreg.nickname | namePerson/friendly | nickname | | Full Name | openid.sreg.fullname | namePerson | n (family-name, given-name) or fn | | Birthday | openid.sreg.dob | birthDate | bday | | Gender | openid.sreg.gender | gender | gender | | Email | openid.sreg.email | contact/email | email | | Postal Code | openid.sreg.postcode | contact/postalCode/home | postal-code | | Country | openid.sreg.country | contact/country/home | country-name | | Language | openid.sreg.language | pref/language | N/A | | Timezone | openid.sreg.timezone | pref/timezone | tz | | Photo | N/A | media/image/default | photo | | Company | N/A | company/name | org | | Biography | N/A | media/biography | note | | URL | N/A | contact/web/default | URL | Now, there are a number of other other attributes beyond what I've covered here that AX and vCard cover, often overlapping in the data being described, but not in attribute names. Of course, this creates a pain for developers who want to [do the right thing](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/11/01/open-social-web-now-4/?ref=chrismessina.me) and import profile data rather than having folks repeat themselves *yet again*. Do you support SREG? AX? hCard? All of the above? Well, regular people don't care, and shouldn't care, but that doesn't mean that this isn't a trivial matter. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/26967479/?ref=chrismessina.me)Instead, the barriers to doing the right thing should be made *as low as possible*. Given all the [work that we've done](http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-advocacy?ref=chrismessina.me) promoting microformats and the subsequent widespread adoption of them (I'd venture that there are *many* million [hcards in the wild](http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild?ref=chrismessina.me)), it only makes sense to leverage the upward trend in the adoption of hcard and to use it as a parallel partner in the OpenID-profile-exchange dance. While AX is well specified, hCard is well supported (as well as well-specified). While AX is extensible, hCard is too. Most importantly, however, hcard and vcard is *already* widely supported in existing applications like Outlook, Mail.app and just about every mobile phone on the planet and in just about any other application that exchanges profile data. **So the question is, when OpenID is clearly a player in the future and part of that promise is about making things easier, more consistent and more citizen-centric, why would we go and introduce a *whole new format* for representing person-detail-data when a perfectly good one already exists and is so widely supported?** I'm hoping that reason and sense will prevail and that OpenID and hCard will naturally come together as two essential building blocks for independents. If you're interested in this issue, please blog about it or express your support to specs@openid.net. I think the folks working on this spec need to hear from folks who make, create, build or design websites and who recognize the importance and validity of betting on, and support and adopting, microformats. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Assaf Arkin](http://assaf.labnotes.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-01 23:22:50 I hate that every spec author feels the need to reinvent new attributes names. It doesn't make you unique and cool, just annoying. Using vCard as reference was obviously a good choice on part of microformats. But I do have to warn that inferring the preference language from the document language is mono-lingual myopic. It's common to be named in one language, which you'll want to use for your vCard, and prefer to use services in a different language, which you'll want to use as login preference. One does not imply the other. Also, vCard does have a timezone property (tz). **Boris Mann** ¡ 2007-11-02 00:08:46 I'm still frustrated by this lack of understanding. AX will plug directly into a dynamic bit of code / database on the backend. The \*display format\* can easily be hCard...or anything else. We're not hand coding stuff here. This is not something for openid or specs to deal with. AX is already extensible, as you said. Have you considered hosting an hCard schema at microformats.org? Unique URLs define each attribute, so doing microformats.org/hcard/firstname (or whatever, just continue the process) so that everyone implementing AX and wanting to follow a centralized definition of attributes can just use those. Go for it! **[Trevor Johns](http://tjohns.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-02 01:10:47 Chris, is there a reason URL is listed twice in your table, or that just a typo? And I definitely agree, there's an overlap between protocols here that should be eliminated. There are some implementation details that would need to be worked out first though. The most striking one being that there's no guarantee a URI acting as an OpenID Identifier will also contain an hCard. I think this is a perfect use for Yadis. Why not create a new service type for pointing towards either a vCard or hCard? **[Armand du Plessis](http://armanddp.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-02 07:22:44 What I would like to see is the http://www.axschema.org/types/ extended with recognized support for microformats. e.g. defining types like 'type.microformats.xfn' and use those types to exchange microformats over OpenID Attribute Exchange. Site X wants a friends list, sure, just request 'type.microformats.xfn' and get the xfn formatted list as part of the exchange. The same with the other microformats. **[End of Silence - Freedom hating on the internets since 2002 » links for 2007-11-02](http://www.thechunk.com/blog/archive/links-for-2007-11-02/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-02 09:17:39 \[...\] hCard for OpenID Simple Registration and Attribute Exchange | FactoryCity (tags: openid hcard microformats) \[...\] **[hCard als Attribute Exchange für OpenID at notizBlog - a private weblog written by Matthias Pfefferle](http://notizblog.org/2007/11/04/hcard-als-attribute-exchange-fuer-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-04 12:34:16 \[...\] Messina stellt sich in seinem Artikel “hCard for OpenID Simple Registration and Attribute Exchange” die Frage warum bei der Definition der ersten AX-Typen (genauso wie bei SREG) versucht wird, \[...\] **[Tantek](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 02:33:11 Chris, here is my opinion at what steps we can take to replace OpenID SREG with hCard: http://tantek.com/log/2007/11.html#d02t2318 Thanks for your post. Tantek **Lee** ¡ 2007-11-05 12:47:54 Hmm. How would this cope with the need to provide different attributes to (and, more importantly, to EXCLUDE different attributes from) different sites/services? **[hCard is not a provisioning engine (for private data)](http://willnorris.com/2007/11/hcard-is-not-a-provisioning-engine-for-private-data?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 15:30:07 \[...\] wrote about how hCard is much more appropriate than OpenID for the provisioning use-case and Chris continued that discussion, questioning why we need SREG and Attribute Exchange when hCard works just \[...\] **[try { reuse; } catch (Ex) { reinvent; }](http://willnorris.com/2007/11/try-reuse-catch-ex-reinvent?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 19:59:45 \[...\] I wrote about the limitations of hCard primarily in regards to private data. After talking with Chris briefly and then reading Tantek’s thoughts on the topic, it clicked with me. I wouldn’t \[...\] **[Brad Fitzpatrick](http://bradfitz.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-07 17:40:21 How do you propose the relying party get the hCard? As a payload in the OpenID response, alongside the signature, and signed? If not, then as discovery? (fetching the public URL) In that case, how do you deal with non-public information? I'm not disagreeing with anything you said; just curious how you see this working. **[Keith Grennan](http://nearlyfree.org/blog/keith?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-09 08:33:34 +1 to using hCard/vCard. Totally agree - don't need yet-another-schema. Having built several webapps in the last few years that store identity data, I've found using the vCard schema all the way down to the database layer very effective. Schema reuse is just as powerful as code reuse. **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » Ads and Widgets: two battlefields, one solution](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2007/11/ads-and-widgets-two-battlefields-one-solution?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-12 18:08:08 \[...\] We love ALL sorts of openness and expansion of the known universe from the existing status quo of Web 1.0 and bricks and mortar business as usual. This also applies to politics, sexuality and legalized marijuana - but I’ll keep my scope more limited to the matters at hand “which standards do we support - moving forward?” \[...\] **[//dopefreshtightblog](http://blog.dopefreshtight.de/artikel/definining-openid-ax-attributes/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-19 15:06:12 **Defining Attributes for OpenID AX...**In one of my last articles I wrote about Attribute Exchange and how this namespace can be used to exchange whatever personal data you like. You are not bound to a fixed set of attributes like the one that the Simple Registration extension offers, becau... **[OpenWatt? OpenID! (Teil 2) at snirgel.de - Es ist im Computer drin](http://www.snirgel.de/2008/12/21/openwatt-openid-teil-2/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-21 09:59:42 \[...\] kommt bestimmt später noch. Aber wen es interessiert, der sollte unbedingt hier (deutsch) und hier (englisch) weiterlesen. Der Ablauf insgesamt ist zudem auch gleich wie oben \[...\] ### OpenSocial and Address Book 2.0: Putting People into the Protocol URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/opensocial-and-address-book-20-putting-people-into-the-protocol/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:23.000Z [](http://obeygiant.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)I wonder if [Tim O'Reilly](http://radar.oreilly.com/tim?ref=chrismessina.me) knows something that he's not telling the rest of us. Or maybe he knows something that the rest of us know, but that we haven't been able to articulate yet. Who knows. In any case, he's been going on about this "[Address Book 2.0](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/02/social%5Fnetwork%5F1.html?ref=chrismessina.me)" [for awhile](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/03/the%5Fweb%5F20%5Faddr%5F1.html?ref=chrismessina.me), and if you ask me, it has a lot to do with Google's [upcoming](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/10/30/details-revealed-google-opensocial-to-be-common-apis-for-building-social-apps/?ref=chrismessina.me) [announcement](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/10/google-opensocial-api-launch.html?ref=chrismessina.me) of a [set of protocols, formats and technologies](http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071031-google-goes-after-facebook-with-new-opensocial-social-networking-api.html?ref=chrismessina.me) they've dubbed [*OpenSocial*](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/31/technology/31google.html?%5Fr=1&oref=slogin&ref=technology&pagewanted=print). \[**Aside:** I'll just point out that I like the fact that the name has "open" in it (even if ["open" will be the catchphrase that replaces the Web 2.0 meme](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/378526992?ref=chrismessina.me)) because it means that in order to play along, you have to be some shade of *open*. I mean, if Web 2.0 was all about having lots of bits and parts all over the place and throwing them together just-in-time in the context of a "social" experience, then being "open" will be what separates those who are caught up and have been playing along from those who have been asleep at the wheel for the past four years. Being "open" (or the "most" open) is the next logical stage of the game, where being *anything other* than open will be met with a sudden and painless death. This is a good thing™ for the web, but remember that we're in the infancy of the roll-out here, and mistakes (or brilliant insights) will define what kind of apps we're building (or able to build) for the next 10 years.\] Let me center the context here. A few days ago, I wrote about [putting people in the protocol](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/09/23/putting-people-into-the-protocol/?ref=chrismessina.me). I was talking about another evolution that will come *alongside* the rush to be open (I should note that "*open*" is an ongoing process, not an endpoint in and of itself). This evolution will be painful for those who resist but will bring great advantage to those who embrace it. It's pretty simple and if you ask me, it lies at the heart of Tim's Address Book 2.0 and Google's OpenSocial; in a word, it's *people*. Before I get into that, let me just point out what this is *not* about. Fortunately, in his assessment of "[What to Look for from Google's Social Networking Platform](http://weblogs.jupiterresearch.com/analysts/card/archives/2007/10/what%5Fto%5Flook%5Ffo.html?ref=chrismessina.me)", David Card at Jupiter Research spelled it out in blindingly *incorrect* terms: > As an analyst who used to have the word "Unix" on his business card, I've seen a lot of "open" "consortia" fail miserably. Regular readers know my Rule of Partnership: For a deal to be important, two of the following three must occur: - Money must change hands - There must be exclusivity - Product must ship "Open" "consortia" aren't deals. That's one of the reasons they fail. The key here would be "Product must ship." This completely misses the point. This is why the first bubble was so lame. So many people had third-world capital in their heads and missed what's new: the development, accumulation and exchange of first-world *social capital* through human networks. Now, the big thing that's changed (or is changing) is the emphasis on the individual and her role *across* the system. Look at [MyBlogLog](http://www.mybloglog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Look at [Automattic's purchase of Gravatar](http://photomatt.net/2007/10/17/gravatar-sold/?ref=chrismessina.me). Look at the sharp rise in OpenID adoption over the past two years. The future is in non-siloed living man! The future is in portable, independent identities valid, like Visa, *everywhere that you want to be*. It's not just about social network fatigue and getting fed up with filling out profiles at every social network you join and re-adding all your friends. Yeah, those things are annoying but more importantly, the fact that you *have to do it every time* just to get basic value from each system means that each has been designed to benefit itself, rather than the individuals coming and going. The whole damn thing needs to be inverted, and like recently rejoined ant segments dumped from many an ant farm, the [*fractured, divided, shattered into a billion fragments*](http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Smashing-Pumpkins/Spaced.html?ref=chrismessina.me)\-people of the web must rejoin themselves and become whole in the eyes of the services that, *what else?*, serve them! Imagine this: imagine designing a web service where you don't store the permanent records of facets of people, but instead you simply build services that serve people. In fact, it's no longer even in your best interest to store data about people long term because, in fact, the data ages so rapidly that it's next to useless to try to keep up with it. Instead, it's about looking across the data that someone makes *transactionally available to you* (for a split second) and offering up the best service given what you've observed when similar fingerprint-profiles have come to your system in the past. It's not so much about owning or storing Address Book 2.0 as much as being ready when all the people that populate the decentralized Address Book 2.0 *concept* come knocking at your door. Are you going to be ready to serve them immediately or asking them to *fill out yet another* profile form? Maybe I'm not being entirely clear here. Admittedly, these are rough thoughts in my head right now and I'm not really self-editing. Forgive me. But I think that it's important to say something before the big official announcement comes down, so that we can pre-contextualize this and realize the shift that's happening even as the hammer drops. Look, if Google and a bunch of chummy chums are going to make available a whole slew of "social graph" material, we had better start realizing what this means. And we had better start realizing the value that our data and our social capital have in this new eco-system. Forget page views. Forget sticky eyeballs. With OpenID, with OAuth, with microformats, with, yes, with FOAF and other formats — hell with plain 'ol scrapable HTML! — Google and co. will be amassing a social graph the likes of which has yet to be seen or twiddled upon (that's a technical term). It means that we're \[finally\] moving towards a *citizen-centric web* and it means great things for the web. It means that things are going to get interesting, for Facebook, for MySpace, for Microsoft, for Yahoo! (who [recently](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/10/23/yang-decides-to-shut-down-yahoo-360%E2%80%94nobody-notices/?ref=chrismessina.me) [closed 360](http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-1qCkw2Ehaak.hdNZkEAzDrpa4Q--?cq=1&p=49226&ref=chrismessina.me), btw!) And y'know, I don't know what Spiderman would think of OpenSocial or of what else's coming down the pipe, but I'm sure in any case, he'd caution that, [with great power comes great responsibility](http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/mozilla-manifesto.ars?ref=chrismessina.me). I'm certainly excited about this, but it's not all about Google. Moreover, OpenSocial is simply an acknowledgment that things have to (and have) change(d). What comes next is anyone's guess, but as far as I'm concerned, Tim's been more or less in the ballpark so far, it just won't necessarily be about owning the Address Book 2.0, but what it means when it's taken for granted as a basic building block in the vast clockwork of the open social web. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Manuel Vila](http://kindalab.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-01 00:43:28 Bravo Chris for this really refreshing article! I share your enthusiasm about the natural tendency of the web to open itself although Google's OpenSocial seems to be a very small step towards what I call the "Object Oriented Web": http://blog.kindalab.com/2007/10/26/information-spreading-through-social-networks/ **[John Dowdell](http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-01 02:50:02 Hi Chris, do you know where the data lives? You imply Google owns the bits we generate, similar to how they own the data associated with our "Year 2038" cookies, our search history, the AdSense deliveries to our browsers, and so on. Do you know for sure yet if that's the case, or are we still waiting for info on the actual privacy implications of this initiative? tx. **[Open Open Open at Like It Matters](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/11/01/open-open-open/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-01 05:06:13 \[...\] Messina has lots of good thoughts — one on the utility of open as a meme, and, moreso, on the friction-reducing goodness of \[...\] **[Good news: the user is back, and he won’t be ignored this time! « Alexander van Elsas’s Weblog on new media & technologies and their effect on social behavior](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/good-news-the-user-is-back-and-he-wont-be-ignored-this-time/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-01 05:28:21 \[...\] Messina wrote a really excellent piece called “OpenSocial and Address book 2.0: Putting People into the protocol”. In this piece he talks about a topic that I have written about a lot. The observation that \[...\] **[The Future is Non-Siloed Living](http://www.samharrelson.com/2007/11/01/the-future-is-non-siloed-living/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-01 06:22:52 \[...\] OpenSocial and Address Book 2.0: Putting People into the Protocol | FactoryCity No Comments, Comment or Ping \[...\] **[The Nested Float » Open Social vs. Aging Data](http://www.thenestedfloat.com/2007/11/01/open-social-vs-aging-data/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-01 07:28:19 \[...\] From Chris Messina’s post on Google’s Open Social announcement: \[...\] **[it's an open social | Voysage blog](http://blog.voysage.com/2007/11/02/its-an-open-social/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-01 22:18:11 \[...\] spending the weekend drilling through the APIs to hopefully get some OS compatibility in the works. factoryjoe.com: “Look, if Google and a bunch of chummy chums are going to make available a whole slew of \[...\] **[Chris Jay](http://chrisfjay.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-02 02:16:39 Chris, totally agree. The problem with apps hosted INSIDE social networks is that you get data silos - not everyone I know is in Myspace, and they never will be. Instead, we need apps that work ACROSS social networks, gathering the relevant friends and details from each to provide the complete picture - e.g. a complete address book. Writing one of these apps is not about data storage, it's about data aggregation from all across the web. OpenSocial gets us some of the way there, but the vision is still not complete. **[Chris Jay](http://chrisfjay.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-02 02:28:12 One more point - there's a technical link between OpenID and OpenSocial, which is each person's URI. Imagine if the URI that represents me in OpenID is the SAME URI that provides my OpenSocial details. Then whenever I log to an app, it automatically gets controlled access to my details. And I can log in either with my "corporate" LinkedIn URI, or my "groovy" MySpace URI, and the application will see the appropriate details. **[yashke.com » OpenSocial - ju? jest](http://yashke.com/2007/11/02/opensocial-juz-jest/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-02 03:45:35 \[...\] Chris Messina zauwa?y?, ?e OpenSocial to chyba to o czym pisa? Tim O’Reilly w cyklu postĂłw o potrzebie powstania ksi??ki adresowej 2.0\. Trudno si? z nim nie zgodzi? - to zdecydowanie nie tylko ch?? przeniesienia pomys?u platformy Facebooka na inne serwisy. \[...\] **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-02 09:00:07 @John: You raise a good point, but I suppose I'm imagining a semi-distant future where the transfer costs of data moves to almost nil, so that you can multiple original sources of data strewn about and still be able to access and make calculations on that data on the fly. I also imagine that your identity provider will both store and federate a lot of data on your behalf, controlling access with revokable OAuth tokens and OpenID-set permissions. It'll be no different than your credit card today -- where a bank stores and "federates" money to the places where you make payments or take out money from ATMs. (Hence a post I'm writing called "Data Capital"). In any case, we're a long ways off from what I'm talking about, but in a citizen-centric web, you get to choose who has access to your data and for how long because you choose your identity provider (hopefully, wisely). @Chris Jay: I agree... we're essentially countering the problem that siloed-email servers had decades ago when they didn't intermingle. Since social networks are essentially glorified email-sending machines, it's only logical that we begin to be able to send messages (and other types of data and functionality) betwixt them. As for using specific URIs for different identities, this is *exactly* how it's supposed to work! And I'm glad that you make that point, because that, again, is how you'll be able to slice your identit\[ies\] and keep them distinct, but also under your own control. OpenID does provide for personas, but if you want to maintain completely separate identities, you can do so with uncorroborated identifiers. **[Power to the widgets](http://www.lk9.se/2007/11/04/power-to-the-widgets/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-04 04:58:16 \[...\] weeks announcement about Google OpenSocial. Several sources have discussed it’s potential impact. It’s not me, it’s \[...\] **[Scattershooting at Like It Matters](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/11/05/scattershooting/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 05:25:11 \[...\] FactoryJoe: Putting people into the protocol. \[...\] **[Flailing Wildly » Blog Archive »](http://blog.skyzyx.com/2007/11/05/people-centric-web/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 09:22:41 \[...\] Last year, I co-founded a company by the name of Foleeo (which will likely change names because of Palm’s Foleo) that is working on a solution to the ever-increasing rift between record labels, movie studios, and people like you and me who want to get music, movies, and TV shows under far more reasonable terms. But like Google with search, that’s simply where we’re starting. We’re also working on what I (very esoterically) refer to the “citizen-centric social anti-network”. Many of the ideas behind this venture were recently described my Chris Messina in a much more eloquent manner: \[...\] **[Rolf Skyberg](http://rolfskyberg.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 20:35:09 Hey Chris- Now that OpenSocial has been stewing for a while in the public sphere, I'd love to get your take on what it's all about and whether it lives up to the hype. BTW, I completely agree with your "just build services for people" argument. Our grandchildren aren't going to put up with maintaining more than a few "profiles". **[Rolf](http://rolfskyberg.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-06 20:37:42 Hey Chris, great writeup. I'd be interested in hearing your viewpoint on OpenSocial now that it's had a bit of time to stew. I completely agree with your idea about "creating services for people". Our grandchildren will think maintaining multiple profiles is as ridiculous and tedious as "balancing your checkbook." **[Roop says » Blog Archive » Is Open Social, Open Friend?](http://danielroop.com/blog/2007/11/12/is-open-social-open-friend/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-12 16:18:55 \[...\] Google announces OpenSocial. I have watched the video, read over the spec, and even read other people’s interpretation of what OpenSocial is or could be, but I am still not sure it is open \[...\] **[I never knew » Blog Archive » Google Open Social](http://i.never.nu/google-open-social/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-25 14:46:00 \[...\] Imagine this: imagine designing a web service where you don’t store the permanent records of facets of people, but instead you simply build services that serve people. In fact, it’s no longer even in your best interest to store data about people long term because, in fact, the data ages so rapidly that it’s next to useless to try to keep up with it. Instead, it’s about looking across the data that someone makes transactionally available to you (for a split second) and offering up the best service given what you’ve observed when similar fingerprint-profiles have come to your system in the past. It’s not so much about owning or storing Address Book 2.0 as much as being ready when all the people that populate the decentralized Address Book 2.0 concept come knocking at your door.—Opensocial and address book 20 putting people into the protocol \[...\] **[It’s about interaction stupid! « Alexander van Elsas’s Weblog on new media & technologies and their effect on social behavior](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/its-about-interaction-stupid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-27 01:09:24 \[...\] that it solves the current issues with data portability and privacy automatically. It’s what Chris Messina calls the citizens web, I prefer calling it the user centric web. If user value is the core of your business model, then \[...\] **[Volatile (ie., highly dynamic) supergraphs « Utterances of a Zimboe](http://zimboe.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/volatile-ie-highly-dynamic-supergraphs/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-27 07:45:17 \[...\] (ie., highly dynamic) supergraphs Update: Chris Messina had similar thoughts a month earlier: In fact, it’s no longer even in your best interest to store data about people \[...\] ### This can all be made... awesome. URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/this-can-all-be-made-awesome/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:22.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1805992795/?ref=chrismessina.me)If you only read me on RSS, you may never have seen the smirk of a catch phrase I use on this blog. If you haven't, it's been "This can all be made better. Ready? Begin." for some time. I don't know how I came up with it, but since blogs have this weird tradition of having a catch phrase, I grabbed that one and it stuck. Anyway, I dunno, "better" sounds kind of assumptively pejorative, as though achieving satisfaction is off limits. That you always have to be improving things; never enjoying. Whatever, it's not a big deal. So, taking a line from Threadless, my catch phrase will now be: *This can all be made awesome. Ready? Begin.* --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[kelly sims](http://kellysims.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-30 19:17:59 Well, I liked better. But awesome, is well, awesome. :) **[Marshall Kirkpatrick](http://marshallk.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-30 21:38:32 I liked "better" too, it was like self-consciously a step above \*fucked\* - which spoke to social justice concerns to me. You've got enough hipness that optimism is understood, if you don't mind my saying so. That said, making things awesome is cool too :) Good luck with that, I'd say you're doing a good job so far. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-30 21:40:51 Hmm, two votes against so far. Well, I'll let it sit for a day and if sounds pretentious or dumb tomorrow, I'll make it better. Heh. ;) **[Tony Bacigalupo](http://www.tonybacigalupo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-31 06:06:49 The first time I ended up on this site, knowing almost nothing about you, I distinctly remember noticing the negative connotations of the tagline. So I am very much in favor of tweaking it to something that matches better. Use of the word "awesome" is definitely a good direction to take it :-) **[Timothy Moenk](http://tmoenk.typepad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-31 13:49:57 If I might suggest, I think this can be made better and more awesome by adding the letter 'r'. "This can all be made awesomer. Ready? Begin." By adding the letter 'r,' you increase your ROA(Return on Awesome). **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-31 13:54:02 @Timothy: Brilliant. **[Tony Bacigalupo](http://www.tonybacigalupo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-31 14:07:54 I agree with "awesomer" and was thinking the same thing. I think I am going to emphasize a high ROA in all activities from now on. **[Alex Hillman](http://www.dangerouslyawesome.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-31 19:06:53 \*dangerously\* awesome? (dot com) ;-) @Tony, ROA = return on awesome? i can totally dig that. **[kveton](http://kveton.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-07 12:43:58 For the record, I like "This can all be made awesomer" ... :-) **[the dotmatrix project at connecting\*the\*dots](http://www.seancoon.org/2007/11/the%5Fdotmatrix%5Fproject.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-15 15:30:05 \[...\] Why? Because to quote a bud, “this can all be made… awesome. \[...\] ### Raw Materials URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/raw-materials/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:00.000Z I thought I'd start a new category on my blog (not that they're exposed in my current theme, but whatever) called "Raw Materials". I oftentimes have thought fragments or observations that seem to be part of bigger trends or ideas that I don't tend to blog about because they're not substantial or clear enough to warrant a full post. But then later on, I realize that it would have been helpful to be able to cite earlier pieces of my thinking that lead to the current revelation. Rather than simply collecting Asides ([as Matt does](http://photomatt.net/category/asides/?ref=chrismessina.me)), I want to record, primarily for my own sake, where my head's at and what's filtering in to it. I mean, I could [use Twitter for this](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me), but sometimes, well, I have a little more to say than fits in 140 characters. ### Site-specific browsers and GreaseKit URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/site-specific-browsers-and-greasekit/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:21.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1703905150/?ref=chrismessina.me)There's [general class of applications](http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2007/03/site-specific-browser-using-webrunner/?ref=chrismessina.me) that's been [gaining some traction](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/09/webrunner%5F07%5Fro.html?ref=chrismessina.me) [lately](http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2007/09/webrunner-07-new-and-improved/?ref=chrismessina.me) in the Mozilla communities built on a free-standing framework called [Web Runner](http://wiki.mozilla.org/WebRunner?ref=chrismessina.me). The idea is [simple](http://www.downloadsquad.com/2007/10/17/mozilla-webrunner-a-one-window-tabless-browser-with-no-url-bar/?ref=chrismessina.me): take a browser, cut out the tabs, the URL bar and all the rest of the window chrome and instead load one website at a time. Hence the colloquial name: "site specific browser". [Michael McCracken](http://michael-mccracken.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) deserves credit for [inspiring interest](http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/05/13/a-dedicated-distraction-free-browser-for-gmail/?ref=chrismessina.me) in this idea early on with his [Webmail](http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/?p=44&ref=chrismessina.me) app, that in turn lead to Ben Willmore's [Gmail Browser application](http://willmore.eu/gmailbrowser/?ref=chrismessina.me). Both literally took [WebKit](http://webkit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) — Apple's open source rendering engine (like Mozilla's [Gecko](http://wiki.mozilla.org/Gecko?ref=chrismessina.me) engine) — had it load Gmail.com and released their apps. It doesn't get much more straight-forward than that. For my own part, I've been chronically the development of [Site-Specific Browsers](http://webkit.pbwiki.com/ExistingProjects?ref=chrismessina.me) from the beginning, setting up the [WebKit PBWiki](http://webkit.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and releasing a couple of my own apps, most recently [Diet Pibb](http://www.factoryjoe.com/projects/dietpibb/?ref=chrismessina.me). I have a strong belief that a full featured rendering engine coupled with a few client side tweaks is the future of browsers and web apps. You can see hints of this in Dashboard Widgets and Adobe's AIR framework already, though the former's launching flow conflicts with the traditional "click an icon in my dock to launch an application" design pattern. Anyway, in developing my Site-Specific Browsers (or Desktop Web Apps?), I became enamored with an input manager for Safari called [Creammonkey](http://creammonkey.sf.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) that allows you to run [Greasemonkey](https://addons.mozilla.org/ja/firefox/addon/748?ref=chrismessina.me) scripts inside of Safari (ignore the name — Kato, the developer, is Japanese and English is his second language). An input manager works by matching a particular application's .plist identifier and injecting its code (via [SIMBL](http://www.culater.net/software/SIMBL/SIMBL.php?ref=chrismessina.me)) into the application at run-time, effectively becoming part of the host application, in turn giving it access to all the application's inner workings. When it comes to a rendering engine, it's this kind of injection that allows you to then inject your own CSS or Javascript into a webpage, allowing you to make whatever modifications you want. This is what Creammonkey did for Safari. And thank god it was open source or else we never would have ended up with today's release of the successor to Creammonkey called [GreaseKit](http://8-p.info/greasekit/?ref=chrismessina.me). Let me step back a little. When I found out about Creammonkey, I contacted [Kato Kazuyoshi](http://8-p.info/?ref=chrismessina.me), the developer, and told him how excited I was about what he had created. "But could I use this on Site-Specific Browsers?" I wanted to know. In broken English he expressed his uncertainty and so I went about hacking it myself. I ended up with a crude solution where I would recompile Creammonkey and aim it at a different application every time I wanted to make use of a different Greasemonkey scripts. It was tedious and didn't really work the way I envisioned, but given my meager programming skills, it demonstrated the idea of *Site-Specific Browsers* with *Site-Specific Hacks*. I called this collection of site-specific scripts with a properly crafted Input Manager a "[GreaseKit](http://webkit.pbwiki.com/GreaseKit?ref=chrismessina.me)" and let the idea sit for a while. Some time later, Kato got in touch with me and we talked about rereleasing Creammonkey with the functionality that I envisioned and a new name. Today he released the results of that work and called it [GreaseKit](http://8-p.info/greasekit/?ref=chrismessina.me). I can't really express [how excited I am about this](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/356520002?ref=chrismessina.me). I suspect that the significance of this development probably won't shake the foundations of the web, but it's pretty huge. For one thing, I've found comparable solutions (Web Runner) clunky and hard to use. In contrast, I'm able to create stand-alone WebKit apps in under 2 minutes with native Apple menus and all the fixins using a [template](http://webkit.pbwiki.com/WebKitTemplate?ref=chrismessina.me) that [Josh Peek](http://joshpeek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) made. No, these apps aren't cross-platform (yet), but what I lose in spanning the Linux/PC divide, I gain in the use of [Xcode](http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/xcode?ref=chrismessina.me), Apple's development environment, and frankly a faster rendering engine. And, as of today, the use of Greasemonkey scripts centrally managed for every WebKit app I develop. These apps are so easy to make and so frigging useful that people are actually building businesses on them. Consider [Mailplane](http://mailplaneapp.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), Ruben Bakker's Gmail app. It's only increments better than McCracken's WebMail or Willmore's Gmail Browser, but he's still [able to charge $25](http://mailplaneapp.com/blog%5Ffiles/price%5Fannouncement.html?ref=chrismessina.me) for it (which I paid happily). Now, with GreaseKit in the wild, I can add all my favorite Greasemonkey scripts to Mailplane — just like I might have with Firefox — but if Gmail causes a browser crash, I only lose Mailplane, rather than my whole browser and all the tabs I have open. Not to mention that I can command-tab to Mailplane like I can with Mail.app... and I can drag and drop a file on to Mailplane's dock icon to compose a new email with an attachment. Just add offline storage (inevitable now that [WebKit supports HTML5 client-side database storage](http://webkit.org/blog/126/webkit-does-html5-client-side-database-storage/?ref=chrismessina.me)) and you've basically got the best of desktop, web and user-scriptable applications all in one lightweight package. I'll have more to write on this soon, but for now, give [GreaseKit](http://8-p.info/greasekit/?ref=chrismessina.me) a whirl (or [check the source](http://code.google.com/p/greasekit/?ref=chrismessina.me)) and let me know what you think. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[James Governor](http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-23 01:54:27 wow. what's so great about the willmore's gmail browser makes it worth $25? **[Wim](http://wimlepage.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-23 03:15:35 Is there some directory site pointing people to all these webkit apps? That would be nice. Liking mailplane, but like to also have google calendar, reader, docs,... **[Derek](http://5thirtyone.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-23 04:57:23 Are you successfully running Gmail Macros using GreaseKit and Mailplane? **Johnny Trapdoor** ¡ 2007-10-23 06:07:33 Doesn't Leopard and Safari 3.0 threaten to break input managers and SIMBL? **[wyctim](http://wyctim.extra.hu/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-23 06:29:19 it's cool, but what about the leopard? the inputmanagers is disabled on the upcoming new os x. **[Joshua Peek](http://joshpeek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-23 07:32:07 I thought I lost it at first, but I found the original source code for Hiker and that template we started on. http://hiker.wh.joshpeek.com/browser **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-23 07:57:34 @James: It's not Willmore's Gmail Browser that's $25; it's Ruben Bakker's Mailplane. $25 is kind of steep for this kind of thing, but I primarily wanted to support an independent developer and the idea making web-based, native-like applications. Granted, some folks [bristled](http://groups.google.com/group/mailplaneapp/browse%5Fthread/thread/844873396e13ef15?ref=chrismessina.me "$25 for an email app?") at the pricetag, I felt like I was supporting an individual pioneering in this work. What makes it valuable to me is all the work that went into to make it behave more like a desktop app (for example, dragging files onto a message window to attach). Is it worth $25 for these kinds of features? Frankly, not to everyone. But I do hope that Ruben continues to build it out -- and as Gmail changes over time, I expect that my money will help pay for fast updates to the app to keep it compatible with the ongoing changes. @Wlm: There isn't yet, besides the WebKit wiki that I started showing [Existing Projects](http://webkit.pbwiki.com/ExistingProjects?ref=chrismessina.me). We're still early, but eventually these apps will saddle up alongside more traditional desktop apps. @Derek: Truthfully I haven't given it a shot yet -- I was just so excited that GreaseKit was out that I wanted to get the word out and see what other folks come up with. That said, I'll probably start giving some of the available Gmail Greasemonkey scripts a whirl soon. @Johnny and @wyctim: fortunately there is already work underway to make SIMBL-style Input Manager work on Leopard. Specifically take a look at [PlugSuit](http://millenomi.altervista.org/PlugSuit/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [PimpKit](http://www.cocoamug.com/pimpkit/?ref=chrismessina.me). @Josh: awesome! I think I made some improvements... perhaps we should create a Google Code project and get some more folks involved? **[Derek](http://5thirtyone.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-23 08:34:08 @Chris do report back if you have any luck. I believe I ran all of the updated Gmail related userscripts but none of them seemed to work. I did make sure that all the selected scripts were enabled for Mailplane. **[Jackson Miller » linkblog: Oct 23](http://jaxn.org/article/2007/10/24/linkblog-oct-23/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-23 23:00:56 \[...\] Site-specific browsers and GreaseKit | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Suyash Sonwalkar](http://springsummerfallwinter.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-24 01:50:02 That's nice, but with Gmail now supporting IMAP, I think there's much less of an incentive to have the web-interface for Gmail open all the time. **[links for 2007-10-24 « Breyten’s Dev Blog](http://breyten.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/links-for-2007-10-24/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-24 03:18:36 \[...\] Site-specific browsers and GreaseKit (tags: open source technology the web arts building browsers greasekit greasemonkey site-specific webkit) \[...\] **[All in a days work…](http://billy-girlardo.com/delicious/2007/10/25/links-for-2007-10-26/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-25 17:48:49 \[...\] Site-specific browsers and GreaseKit - the best of desktop, web and user-scriptable apps all in one ... Site-specific browsers: take a browser, cut out the tabs, the URL bar and all the rest of the window chrome and instead load one website at a time. GreaseKit: run Greasemonkey scripts inside of Safari. (tags: Site\_Specific\_Browsers Desktop\_Apps User\_Styles/Scripts Safari) \[...\] **[Suyash Sonwalkar](http://springsummerfallwinter.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-25 21:26:31 http://labs.mozilla.com/2007/10/prism/ Did you know this was coming down the pipe? **[Jackson Miller » linkblog: Oct 25](http://jaxn.org/article/2007/10/26/linkblog-oct-25/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-25 23:00:57 \[...\] Site-specific browsers and GreaseKit | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Alex Faaborg](http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-26 17:32:12 \>I’ve found comparable solutions (Web Runner) clunky and hard to use. WebRunner got relaunched as Prism yesterday, and in addition to focusing on third party generated webapp bundles, it also allows end users to quickly integrate any Web application into their desktop experience. The planned UI still isn't fully in place yet, but we are certainly working on cleaning up the experience for mainstream users. **[Jackson Miller » linkblog: Oct 27](http://jaxn.org/article/2007/10/28/linkblog-oct-27/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-27 23:00:51 \[...\] Site-specific browsers and GreaseKit | FactoryCity \[...\] **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-29 10:33:45 @Alex: cool. I saw Prism. That's a pretty excellent advance to see come out of Mozilla. Would love to talk more about this -- as I've been thinking about these things for some time... ;) **[Matt Sephton](http://www.gingerbeardman.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-30 02:30:00 So, now that Leopard is out, what does the future hold for GreaseKit et al? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-30 10:51:36 Well, we'll see. If you ask me, with Prism and GreaseKit, I think we're just starting to scratch the surface of the future of "web browsers". **[Chris J. Davis](http://www.chrisjdavis.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-03 13:07:53 Just a heads up, but apparently there is some bad mojo going on with Leopard's Xcode and the webkit template. I tried a check out and an export and both give me the incredibly helpful and edifying error: "Project /webkit\_template/WebKitApp.xcodeproj cannot be opened because the project file cannot be parsed." I am really looking forward to playing with this, you know, when I can play with it. **[Site Specific Browsers (SSBs) | AVINASH 2.0](http://www.avinash.ws/softwares/site-specific-browsers-ssbs.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 16:49:55 \[...\] and the idea behind ‘em ’cause this topic has already been discussed by too many awesome \[...\] **[Backdrifter: Apple and the Site-Specific Browser](http://www.backdrifter.com/2008/01/16/apple-and-the-site-specific-browser/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-16 23:46:30 \[...\] is all part of a larger trend, referred to as site-specific browsers, which blurs the lines between the web and the way you access it. Apple seems to be ahead of this \[...\] ### Twitter hashtags for emergency coordination and disaster relief URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/twitter-hashtags-for-emergency-coordination-and-disaster-relief/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:20.000Z I know I've been beating the drum about [hashtags](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/08/25/groups-for-twitter-or-a-proposal-for-twitter-tag-channels/?ref=chrismessina.me) for a while. People are either lukewarm to them or are annoyed and hate them. I get it. I do. But for some stupid reason I just can't leave them alone. Anyway, today I think I saw a glimmer of the promise of the hashtag concept revealed. For those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about, consider this status update: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1704237044/?ref=chrismessina.me)You'll notice that the update starts out with "#sandiegofire". That's a hashtag. The hash is the # symbol and the tag is *sandiegofire*. Pretty simple. Why use them? Well, it's like adding metadata to your updates in a simple and consistent way. They're not the most beautiful things ever, but they're pretty easy to use. They also follow [Jaiku's channel](http://jaiku.com/channel?ref=chrismessina.me) convention to some extent, but break it in that you can embed hashtags into your actual post, like so: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1703425911/?ref=chrismessina.me)Following the [principle of DRY](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't%5Frepeat%5Fyourself?ref=chrismessina.me), this simple design means that you can get more mileage out of your 140 characters than you might otherwise if you had to specify your tags separately or in addition to your content. Anyway, you get the idea. Hashtags become all the more useful now that Twitter supports the ["track" feature](https://blog.twitter.com/2007/tracking-twitter?ref=chrismessina.me). By simply sending '*track \[keyword\]*' to Twitter by IM or SMS, you'll get real-time updates from across the Twitterverse. It's actually super useful and highly informative. **Hashtags become even more useful in a time of crisis or emergency as groups can rally around a common term to facilitate tracking**, as demonstrated today with the [San Diego fires](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-prepare23oct23,0,6144290.story?coll=la-home-center&ref=chrismessina.me) (in fact, it was similar situations around Bay Area earthquakes that lead me to propose hashtags in the first place, as I'd seen people [Twittering about earthquakes](http://www.samharrelson.com/2007/03/02/the-first-twitterquake/?ref=chrismessina.me) and felt that we needed a better way to coordinate via Twitter). Earlier today, my friend [Nate Ritter](http://blog.perfectspace.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [started twittering](http://twitter.com/nateritter/statuses/355174462?ref=chrismessina.me) about the San Diego fires, starting slowly and without any kind of uniformity to his posts. He [eventually began prefixing](http://twitter.com/nateritter/statuses/355197652?ref=chrismessina.me) his posts with "San Diego Fires". Concerned that it would be challenging for folks to track "san diego fires" on Twitter because of inconsistency in using those words together, I wanted to apply hashtags as a mechanism for bringing people together around a common term (that [Stowe Boyd incidently calls *groupings*](http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/2007/09/facebook----wha.html?ref=chrismessina.me)). I first checked Flickr's Hot Tags to see what tag(s) people were [*already using*](http://microformats.org/wiki/process?ref=chrismessina.me#Document%5FCurrent%5FBehavior) to describe the fires: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1704504720/?ref=chrismessina.me)I picked "[sandiegofire](http://flickr.com/photos/tags/sandiegofire?ref=chrismessina.me)" — the tag that I thought had the best chance to be widely adopted, and that would also be recognizable in a stream of updates. I [pinged Nate](http://twitter.com/nateritter/statuses/355839792?ref=chrismessina.me) and around 4pm with my suggestion, and he [started using it](http://twitter.com/nateritter/statuses/355818202?ref=chrismessina.me). Meanwhile, [Dan Tentler ](http://thaumatocracy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)(a [BarCamp San Diego](http://barcamp.org/BarCampSanDiego?ref=chrismessina.me) co-organizer who I met at ETECH last year) was also twittering, [blogging](http://www.thaumatocracy.com/news/san-diego-fires-part-ii-update/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [shooting his experience](http://flickr.com/photos/vissago/tags/sandiegofire?ref=chrismessina.me), [occasionally](http://twitter.com/Viss/statuses/356390392?ref=chrismessina.me) using #sandiegofire as his tag. Sometime later Adora (aka [Lisa Brewster](http://www.sophistechate.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), another BarCamp San Diego co-organizer) [posted a status](http://twitter.com/Adora/statuses/356554052?ref=chrismessina.me) using the #sandiegofire hashtag. Had we had a method to disperse the information, we could have let people on Twitter know to track #sandiegofire and to append that hashtag to their updates in order to join in on the tracking stream (for example, [KBPS News](http://twitter.com/kpbsnews?ref=chrismessina.me) would have been easier to find had they been using the tag) (I should point out that the Twitter track feature actually ignores the hashmark; it's useful primarily to denote the tag as metadata in addition to the update itself) . Fortunately, Michael Calore from Wired [picked up the story](http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2007/10/california-fire.html?ref=chrismessina.me), but it might have come a little late for the audience that might have benefitted the most (that is, folks with Twitter SMS in or around affected areas). In any case, hashtags are far from perfect. I have no illusions about this. But they do represent what I think is a solid convention for coordinating ad-hoc groupings and giving people a way to organize their communications in a way that the tool (Twitter) does not currently afford. They also leave open the possibility for external application development and aggregation, since a Twitter user's track terms are currently not made public (i.e. there is no way for me to know what other people are tracking across Twitter in the same way that I can see [which tags have the most velocity](http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/?ref=chrismessina.me) across Flickr). So sure, they need work, but the example of #sandiegofire now should provide a very clear example of the problem I'd like to see solved. Hashtags are my best effort at working on this problem to date; I wonder what better ideas are out there waiting to be proposed? --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Gabe Wachob** ¡ 2007-10-23 00:04:03 Chris- For better or worse, the fires in SD are far from over... I suspect twittering will be going on for days - this grouping around tags in twitterspace is really useful. I find it interesting how a #tag emerges ... **[Craig Overend](http://craigoverend.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-23 01:27:55 The biggest problem appears to be the unifying choice of keyword itself and uptake rather than the syntax implementation. While I like hashtags for being in your face, at the same time tracking just the keyword - as the wired commentary shows - is all that's needed. This is a key reason I don't tag content unless the keyword isn't included in the content I'm tagging. My only suggestion would be something along the lines of a live meme engine for keywords or hashtags that may go some way to unifying choices, especially in emergency situations. That along with a hashtag suggest feature, such that as you choose a keyword by entering a hash, a suggestion box drops down with current and pre-existing memes affording auto-complete. Or just have words underlined in text like a spell checker, with keywords listed as alternatives. This would require an API, client support and in the non-hashtag version; serious connection scaling & local caches. A simpler method would be subscriptions to the keyword memes though I'm not sure how effective it would be noise wise. Segregation via community keyword memes users could track is an alternate, if it scaled... That's just the tagging itself. When our(Australia) recent election leader debate happened, I found myself tracking multiple keywords (howard/rudd/worm) for that one subject. Context was a problem with keywords clashing and I can see the same happening with hashtags unless unique to those contexts tags are used. What defines any object and gives it identity is the aggregation of attributes. That more than anything is the difficult part. In context content matches is what the Google gods try hard to achieve and we can only look to search engine algorithms to solve the hard parts of that problem. On the users end, adding context to what we track with multiple keyword expressions seems to me the best option. With the option to allow the search engine to include 'related' keyword results iteratively if we so choose to. Thereby being exposed to new keywords we can then use when managing our search queries. I call this Query Gardening. I'm always doing it with blog keyword searches via crazy boolean logic expressions to filter for the content I want. It frustrates me that I can't do ( intel (UMPC | MID)) type queries with Twitter tracking. I want search engines to recommend and alter my tracked queries based on query gardening UI features. I keep hearing about 'intel macs' when I track just intel and wish there was a thumbs down button that learnt over time (from my hitting that thumb a lot)to add -mac to my query. Thats my 2c, Craig. **[Conor O'Neill](http://ie.blognation.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-24 00:08:25 Chris, have you tested this? [I was very excited](http://ie.blognation.com/2007/09/27/create-mobile-irish-channels-on-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me) by this prospect when tracking was launched but over several days I could not get Twitter to give me notifications on any #tags. In fact it looked like they were actively blocking them. If I added tracking for #stupid, I got no hits despite sending multiple tweets from different accounts which contained that term. If I tried just the word "stupid" and repeated the test, it worked fine. I haven't tried since. Perhaps it was an early bug? **[San Diego Fires and Disaster Reporting 2.0 « Jonathan Mulholland](http://jonathanmulholland.com/2007/10/24/san-diego-fires-and-disaster-reporting-20/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-24 15:16:08 \[...\] Twitter hashtags for emergency coordination and disaster relief California Fire Followers Set Twitter Ablaze “The next disaster will be Twittered.” California Wildfires - Using New Media to Communicate In A Crisis \[...\] **[links for 2007-10-24 at Chris Dalby Untangles Networks](http://www.yellowpark.net/cdalby/index.php/2007/10/24/links-for-2007-10-24/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-24 15:40:19 \[...\] Twitter hashtags for emergency coordination and disaster relief | FactoryCity Using #hashtags in twitter (tags: twitter hashtags) \[...\] **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-29 12:03:33 @Conor: according to Blaine from Twitter, they strip out the hashes... so 'track #stupid' and 'track stupid' are the same thing. Might have been a bug? **[odd time signatures » Blog Archive » Earthquakes, Wildfires and Hashtags](http://www.drumsnwhistles.com/2007/10/31/earthquakes-wildfires-and-hashtags/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-30 23:55:07 \[...\] up in my feed reader about 10:00 pm or so. Doc links to Chris Messina’s post about using hashtags to track posts around breaking news or an unfolding topic. Following the principle of DRY, this \[...\] **[Speaking at San Diego BarCamp 2007](http://blog.perfectspace.com/2007/11/05/speaking-at-san-diego-barcamp-2007/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 09:38:28 \[...\] that I’ll be attending and speaking at BarCampSD this year. The topic? #sandiegofire, hashtags, Twitter and what happened with both mainstream and independent media during the course of the San \[...\] **[Taptology - Taptu’s Mobile Chemistry Blog » Blog Archive » San Diego County Fire: Social networks proving useful in disaster relief](http://www.taptu.com/blog/2007/10/24/san-diego-county-fire-social-networks-proving-useful-in-disaster-relief/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-10 07:09:58 \[...\] Messina has been throwing around the idea of hashtags to help identify relevant content on Twitter and other social networks for some time now, and while \[...\] **[ThePete](http://thepete.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-05 12:06:20 Thanks for this explanation--I saw those hashtags on Nate's Twitters during the fires but didn't know what they were. I tried Googling them, but... how can you Google them? I didn't want to bug Nate during the fires and forgot once they were over. Glad I finally know what the heck they are and I definitely like them. ^\_^ Thanks!! **[Traces of Inspiration » Blog Archive » It’s Like Fantasy Football. For Geeks.](http://www.darowski.com/tracesofinspiration/2007/12/21/its-like-fantasy-football-for-geeks/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-20 22:12:31 \[...\] aggregator? Chris Messina has been adding hashtags to some tweets. Some have made fun of him. But this could be a great application for using \[...\] **[Futzing as the Future of Work | ::HorsePigCow:: marketing uncommon](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2008/01/12/futzing-as-the-future-of-work/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-12 23:23:13 \[...\] other day, famous San Diego Fire twitterer and all around good guy, Nate Ritter, worked the day at Citizen Space. We got into this \[...\] **[Library clips :: Twitter Hashtags and emergency 2.0 :: January :: 2008](http://libraryclips.blogsome.com/2008/01/17/twitter-hashtags-and-emergency-20/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-16 16:37:50 \[...\] out a post by Chris Messina, on how useful hashtags are in a time of emergency. The only issue is that at a time of emergency \[...\] **[AllIPTech » Blog Archive » Today’s Etech Hack is tomorrow’s Critical Infrastructure…](http://www.alliptech.com/?p=145&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-05 03:02:42 \[...\] some of the interesting ways that Twitter is being used by mainstream emergency management (see: FactoryJoe, Radar post). Jordan then showed me a message he discovered while checking logs after an \[...\] **[Jonathan Mulholland » Blog Archive » San Diego Fires and Disaster Reporting 2.0](http://www.jonathanmulholland.com/?p=5&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-03 06:51:47 \[...\] Twitter hashtags for emergency coordination and disaster relief \[...\] **[#learn with hashtags @ Webcracy](http://webcracy.org/personal-computing/learn-with-hashtags/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-04 07:58:00 \[...\] are controversial: not necessary and/or irritating for some, useful for others. I find them useful for three reasons: they simplify machine treatment, they reduce \[...\] **[Hashing Through Twitter Hashtags — a Look at Structured Conversation  »TechAddress](http://www.techaddress.com/2008/04/23/hashing-through-twitter-hashtags-a-look-at-structured-conversation/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-23 16:34:26 \[...\] mechanics of twitter third party sites and tools, hashtags deserves attention. Here’s a basic example of hashtags. It’s small, and by all appearances might die on the vine, which would be sad. But if the \[...\] **[Social Networks & Social Research « WiredPen](http://wiredpen.com/2008/05/01/social-networks-social-research/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-01 17:46:30 \[...\] Twitter HashTags for emergency coordination and disaster relief \[...\] **[Using twitter hashtags for emergency coordination and disaster relief « Virtual Unity =](http://vunity.wordpress.com/2008/10/12/using-twitter-hashtags-for-emergency-coordination-and-disaster-relief/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-11 18:09:51 \[...\] twitter-hashtags-for-emergency-coordination-and-disaster-relief/ \[...\] **[BlogLESS : Twitter, do you speak it?](http://www.designlessbetter.com/blogless/posts/twitter-do-you-speak-it?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-17 08:40:49 \[...\] Hashtags were famously used during natural disasters like the San Diego fires and Hurricane Ike to coordinate disaster information and relief efforts. \[...\] **[Johan](http://friendfeed.com/johanhorak?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-14 07:29:18 Hi I am trying to get local communities to communicate using twitter, cell phones and other. For quick access I suggest cell phone to twitter, the I collect know twitter accounts into a friendfeedroom. If I don't know the twitter account I use feedmysearch to locate relevant search terms and I collect these in the room as well. In order to get info back quickly you can use twitter's direct message to email and then set it up to sms. http://twitter.com/TweetTrak and other can convert search terms to direct messages > you then arrange email to sms and there you have the redirected comms. You can also send (email) these updates to your friendfeed room. I have setup my account at friendfeed here http://friendfeed.com/johanhorak and my Simon's Town community get there news here http://friendfeed.com/rooms/simonstown This is the room where most of the community will congregate in time of need. I have also started a room for people who want to help teach communities to use online communication tools; twitter.com, frienfeed.com, hashtags, fring.com and other. You are invited to join and help me. The major problem I have is the technophobic nature of people in a local community. At the moment I provide classes for these to just make a start. They all use sms. All they now need to do is sms an alert to twitter. I then send the twitter feed to the room and there you go. A community adding value to the community. Here's the WHALES room where you are invited to help. It's new and your input will make it popular http://friendfeed.com/rooms/whales Regards Johan Horak **[Vivek Sonny Abraham](http://wnwek.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-21 07:01:24 Maybe you could check up http://hashtags.org/tags/popular everytime you wanted to see which hashtag to use or track. **[17 Reasons Why You Need to Grab Your Space on Twitter | SEO Services](http://www.wellwrittenwords.com/17-reasons-why-you-need-to-grab-your-space-on-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-26 00:34:31 \[...\] makes a very effective mode of communication and coordination if there’s a crisis, or heaven forbid, a disaster. But if you’re not already established on Twitter with an \[...\] **[San Diego Fires and Disaster Reporting 2.0.](http://jonmulholland.com/2007/10/25/san-diego-fires-and-disaster-reporting-20/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-01 03:33:56 \[...\] Twitter hashtags for emergency coordination and disaster relief \[...\] **[Chris Blow](http://chris.unthinkingly.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-05 15:54:33 The crisis response team at http://ushahidi.com is working on amplifying these hashtags and subjecting them to more structured peer review. Please get in touch with Ushahidi if you are interested in using Twitter for emergency response. **[Five potential business models for Twitter at Klintron’s Brain](http://www.klintron.com/brain/archives/2008/12/19/five-potential-business-models-for-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-19 13:05:33 \[...\] for businesses, and perhaps more lucratively, government agencies. Twitter’s use for emergency coordination and disaster relief is much touted - they should capitalize on this. They can offer secure microblogging services \[...\] **ubiratan** ¡ 2009-06-25 04:48:02 i love hashtags, but one doubt remain: how can we put a link on it, and then accessing directly the "search results" for that hashtag without using the search engine? tks **[Twitter hashtags for emergency coordination @ Branden Espinoza](http://www.brandenespinoza.com/site/2009/10/31/twitter-hashtags-for-emergency-coordination/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-03 12:44:49 \[...\] have a serious emergency sooner or later. To those of you who have a twitter account. Read this article and be prepared to use twitter in an \[...\] **[The Short and Illustrious History of Twitter #Hashtags](http://gigaom.com/2010/04/30/the-short-and-illustrious-history-of-twitter-hashtags/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-04-30 15:46:39 \[...\] Adoption of the hashtag initially seemed to be mostly by Messina himself, who used them profusely to mark where he was tweeting from and what it was about, until around October of ’07\. During the San Diego forest fires, when people tweeting about the emergency used the same hashtag at Messina’s urging and by following the example set by other citizen jo.... \[...\] **[How did the idea for hashtags originate in Twitter? - Quora](http://www.quora.com/How-did-the-idea-for-hashtags-originate-in-Twitter?ref=chrismessina.me#ans296350)** ¡ 2011-01-17 16:50:29 \[...\] Krewson, Journalist in Charlotte. @underoak And from Messina himself, on Oct. 22:http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/...Insert a dynamic date hereView All 0 CommentsCannot add comment at this \[...\] **[» #️⃣ ההאשתג, שנולד ליצור קבוצות וליווה מהפכות, חוגג עשור 📻 האחראי על האינטרנט בגלצ](http://room404.net/?p=72622&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2017-08-26 11:16:34 \[…\] את הצעתו בפוסט בבלוגו. אומת הטוויטר אימצה את ההצעה, באירועי חירום ובהתארגנויות אקטיביסטיות מקוונות \[…\] ### And you wonder why people in America are afraid of the Internet URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/and-you-wonder-why-people-in-america-are-afraid-of-the-internet/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:19.000Z Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to present to you two exhibits. Here is [Exhibit A](#exhibit-a) from [today's](http://iht.com/articles/2007/10/21/business/wireless22.php?ref=chrismessina.me) International Herald Tribune: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1685358618/?ref=chrismessina.me)In contrast ([Exhibit B](#exhibit-b)) we have the [same *exact* article](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22wireless.html?%5Fr=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&ref=chrismessina.me), but with a completely different headline: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1684498749/?ref=chrismessina.me)Now, for the life of me, I can't figure out how the latter is a more accurate or more appropriate title for the article, which is ostensibly about [Google' acquisition of Jaiku](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/09/theories-about-googles-acquisition-of-jaiku/?ref=chrismessina.me). But, for some reason, the editor of the NY Times piece decided that it would — *what?* — sell more papers? — to use a more incendiary and moreover *misleading* headline for the story. Here's why I take issue: I'm quoted in the article. And here's where the difference is made. This is how the how the article ends: > “To date, many people still maintain their illusion of privacy,” he said in an e-mail message. Adapting will take time. “For iPhone users who use the Google Maps application, it’s already a pain to have to type in your current location,” he said. “‘Why doesn’t my phone just tell Google where I am?’ you invariably ask.” When the time is right and frustrations like this are unpalatable enough, Mr. Messina said, “Google will have a ready answer to the problem.” Consider the effect of reading that passage after being lead with a headline like "Google’s Purchase of Jaiku Raises New Privacy Issues" versus "Will Google take the mobile world of Jaiku onto the Web?" The latter clearly raises the specter of Google-as-Big-Brother while ignoring the fallacy that privacy, as people seem to understand it, continues to exist. Let's face it: if you're using a cell phone, the cell phone company knows where you are. It's just a matter of time before you get an interface to that data and the *illusion* that somehow you gave Google (or any other third party) access to your whereabouts. I for one do not understand how this kind of headline elevates or adds to the discourse, or how it helps people to better understand and come to gripes with the changing role and utility of their presence online. While I do like the notion that any well-engineered system can preserve one's privacy while still being effective, I contend that it's going to take a radical reinterpretation of what we think is and isn't private to feel secure in who can and can't see data about us. So, to put it simply, there are no "new" privacy issues raised by Google's acquisition of Jaiku; it's simply the same old ones over and over again that we seem unable to deal with in any kind of open dialogue in the mainstream press. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Perry de Havilland](http://samizdata.net/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-22 03:17:27 The issue is not simply 'privacy' but rather privacy from whom? If I use a mobile phone, I realise the provider will know where I am and I really do not care. It is having the \*state\* get casual access to that information that bothers me. I really do not care if Google, Marks & Spencer, Orange or Mr. Patel at the Corner Shop knows where I am. I care very much if the government does. **[SlashChick](http://www.slashchick.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-22 09:02:21 More posts on the corruption of the tech industry plz. I will post a similar blog on how I've watched Silicon Valley change over the past 8 years that I've been here, but I'm interested to read what you see as well. -Erica **[A Barley Hut Joint » The Dog Who Claimed to be a Turtle](http://journal.barleyhut.com/the-dog-who-claimed-to-be-a-turtle/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-22 09:30:27 \[...\] Chris Messina points what I’ve long considered a fundamental flaw in the News Industry. It’s subjective. This wouldn’t be a problem except for the fact the game is based on everyone believing the News Industry presents an objective lens through which to view the world. They’re not. Chris gives his example to explain a slightly different point, but his example is not much different than the one I gave in my post “Pick Your Own Adventure Media.” Suppose some may protest that these folks are professional, and trained to be objective. It’s bullshit. They’re trained, and professional, but not to be objective. That’s kinda like training a dog to be a turtle. It ain’t gonna happen. The News Industry doesn’t so much report the news as they shape the news, or frame the news, to use a word currently in vogue. The News Industry define perspective and focus awareness. Again, this wouldn’t be such a problem if everyone simply said we’re biased, but they don’t, and it’s a shame because their power to mold opinions and create problems is immense. I see it as an issue of integrity, or a lack of it. \[...\] **[Vero Pepperrell](http://www.thatcanadiangirl.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-22 11:26:37 Wow, journalists who take this sensationalist approach to sell more papers make my blood boil. Using your quote, but changing the frame of reference as Ekman felt was his right to do, is a definite sign of a cheap-shot lazy journalist. **Allen Laudenslager** ¡ 2007-10-24 06:44:18 Chris: I take exception to your use of the word “illusion” when talking about privacy. I know my cell provider knows where I am, but I rely on them not to release that to third parties - including governments. I need the assurance that I and I alone can authorize who get that information. If for no other reason than the thieves won’t know when I am away from home so they can break in safely. That assurance is only an illusion if the cell company is already releasing that information to third parties without my permission. Allen **[Pascal Van Hecke - Daily Links » 2007 » October » 24](http://links.vanhecke.info/2007/10/24/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-24 16:58:06 \[...\] And you wonder why people in America are afraid of the Internet “If you’re using a cell phone, the cell phone company knows where you are. It’s just a matter of time before you get an interface to that data and the illusion that somehow you gave Google (or any other 3d party) access to your whereabouts.” (tags: chrismessina jaiku google privacy nytimes nyt mobile journalism) \[...\] **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-29 17:10:31 @Allen: great point. I think what you're describing is exactly what I'm afraid is already the reality. We know (or at least should presume) that AT&T is colluding with the government and sharing sensitive cell phone records without any kind of public oversight. We know that Yahoo! has given away the details of users' accounts in China, resulting the in the jailing of a reporter and Chinese dissident; an AOL employee stole a huge number of accounts.. and on and on. We can only assume that these are just the tip of the ice berg and it's only going to get worse. Even with stepped up oversight and enforcement, the reality is that more and more information is being generated and stored about us every time we transact digital business with anyone. This isn't paranoia speaking -- I'm not afraid of it -- it's just reality. Now, you make a good point. Not all this data being accumulated is being made public. Not all of this data is available for just anyone to use. But the reality is, the small number of organizations who \*do\* have access to it have enormous power and understanding of our habits and behavior. Personally, I'd feel better if I knew what data they had and who they were making it available to. I'd also like to, heck, y'know, be able to export it and use it for my own personal benefit since, arguably, it is \*my\* data. Without me, it wouldn't exist, would it? **Adina Levin** ¡ 2007-10-30 01:45:34 @Chris. "We know (or at least should presume) that AT&T is colluding with the government and sharing sensitive cell phone records without any kind of public oversight." That's why the FISA bill and telecom immunity are such big deals. This summer, congress passed a temporary law that allows the government to snoop on correspondence without warrants. Now, Congress is considering updating the law. There are live issues about when the government needs warrants, and whether to give telecom companies immunity from prosecution if they break the law and gave the government information without a warrant. The [Talking Points Memo](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) blog covers the issue well, for example: http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/10/fisa\_bill\_already\_allowed\_unfettered\_evesdropping\_to\_prevent\_terror\_attack\_dems\_say.php ### Leaving TechMeme URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/leaving-techmeme/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:18.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1665950397/?ref=chrismessina.me)It may seem obvious to some [wiser than me](http://twitter.com/al3x/statuses/351656632?ref=chrismessina.me), but every now and then I realize that I need to disrupt my habits, force-inject some new behaviors and shift-reload the inputs into my thinking. Above you can see what the top left corner of [WebKit](http://webkit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) looks like to me everyday. In a nutshell, it depicts the places I visit the most. You'll notice that TechMeme comes second after the [Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) bookmarklet. That's a pretty prime spot to occupy in terms of shaping (or warping) my perspective. Don't get me wrong: [TechMeme](http://techmeme.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is a very well executed news service; above all else, its presentation and hierarchy of information is excellent and serves my goal of consuming a lot of information in aggregate in a very short amount of time. It's as good a zeitgeist as any when it comes to what *certain* people are thinking about. And therein lies the rub. TechMeme provides an interesting and compelling overview of what's hot in conventional tech news. It is, however, overly self-referential, and, insomuch as it gives greater weight to certain "types" of people and posts, it ends up becoming necessarily [echolalic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echolalia?ref=chrismessina.me) [more often than not](http://www.geeknewscentral.com/archives/007354.html?ref=chrismessina.me). And on top of that, the pundits who are featured prominently on its pages (and [who like to argue amongst each other who's popular and who's not](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/09/30/techmeme-leaderboard-to-launch-attacking-technoratis-last-stronghold/?ref=chrismessina.me) (*n.b. I avoided reading any of those posts during that maelstrom; I provide the link merely for context*)) have certain priorities that, well, just don't overlap so well with mine. I mean, it's good to know [what's up with Google](http://www.techmeme.com/071019/p103?ref=chrismessina.me#a071019p103) and Yahoo and [Microsoft](http://www.techmeme.com/071019/p111?ref=chrismessina.me#a071019p111), and what the latest startups are up to and so on. It's also fun to see what the latest controversies are over [net discrimination](http://www.techmeme.com/071020/p13?ref=chrismessina.me#a071020p13) and the what arcane nonsense is being attempted to fasten down the [semantic web](http://www.techmeme.com/071020/p2?ref=chrismessina.me#a071020p2)... But I think I've had my fill of that for now. Frankly, It's time to turn off the firehose. Maybe it's because I'm leaving for a week Oaxaca and I need a reset; or maybe it's realizing that I've so much to do and I have to stop measuring myself by what everyone else is doing (or has already done). Or maybe it's because I can feel the sentiment and motivations of the tech community changing ever-so-gradually and becoming [increasingly corrupt](http://lessig.org/blog/2007/10/corruption%5Flecture%5Falpha%5Fversi%5F1.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Or who knows, maybe nothing has changed except that I need to rearrange some furniture just for the sake of change. Whatever the case, it's time to bid *adieu* to the link that's been occupying second position on my browser's bookmark bar for the last umpteen months. I'm going to have to go back to piecing things together one by one on my own; digging up my own dirt, assembling my own theories instead of the ones advanced by crowd economics, leaving the punditry to be consumed by other more capable pundits. Maybe I'll come back someday — in fact, I probably will. But, as a sheer exercise of will (or perhaps as a mere act of intention), as of today, I'm leaving TechMeme.[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1666601505/?ref=chrismessina.me) --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Zach Hale](http://zachhale.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 00:29:57 A wise decision I'd say. I foresee a return to TechMeme a few times over the next one or two months until realizing for good that there was a reason why you left in the first place and will call it quits. Then, 3 months later, you will re-subscribe because you spend more time thinking about what you might be missing on TechMeme than it would take to just follow the site like you used to. Or at least that's what happened to me, with BoingBoing. There's only so much tech community BS a person can take. More power to you in resisting! **[Gabe](http://www.techmeme.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 00:39:00 You will continue using Techmeme in your dreams. There's really no escape. **[Sam Sethi](http://www.blognation.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 00:58:12 Hi Chris The new homepage on blognation is an alternative to techmeme. We are building up the sites we cover globally but of the 300 bloggers we now track (globally) what surprised me the most was the lack of repetion in the conversation. I too felt techmeme had stifled the conversation around a few big networks but am glad to say the blogosphere is alive and well if we just look further a field. Although we have built the new homepage to replicate the functionality of techmeme e.g if a story is covered by several bloggers we will link them together but so far there has been very little need to do so as 90% of the stories have been varied. The tag line for blognation is one nation, many voices. We have built out the countries now we are adding the voices. **[MG Sielger](http://www.parislemon.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 02:26:00 All fair points and I can certainly see where you're coming from, but my advice would be to sit back and weather the storm. I think this bitching/self-referential session about Techmeme will soon yield to actual news again. I've already suggested a 'backpage' of sorts for Techmeme, to allow those who don't simply write about the biggest stories of the day to be showcased, maybe something will come of that. **[http://www.scripting.com/](http://www.scripting.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 04:46:16 There'a another way to leave Techmeme, block it from crawling your site in your robots.txt file. To be excluded from the TM crawler, put these two lines in your robots.txt file. User-agent: Wazzup Disallow: / **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 07:02:09 @Zach -- thanks. @Gabe: we shall see. Dreaming in ocean green *does* have a certain appeal to it. @Sam: when I'm ready for aggregated news again, I'll check it out. Thanks for the tip! @MG: I'm not actually leaving because of the popularity contest/leaderboard controversy. I kind of take that kind of thing for granted on TechMeme. What I'm really leaving is TechMeme's subset of news. It's no real slight against TechMeme, it's just that I'm looking for some new influences on my thinking! ;) @Dave: Thanks for that. Hadn't thought about kicking *myself* out of TechMeme, but that's a good thing to consider as well. It'll certainly keep me wondering less about whether anything I've written has hit the index! ;) **[Anne Truitt Zelenka » links for 2007-10-21](http://www.annezelenka.com/2007/10/links-for-2007-10-21?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 07:20:56 \[...\] Leaving TechMeme | FactoryCity Chris Messina: “I’m going to have to go back to piecing things together one by one on my own; digging up my own dirt, assembling my own theories instead of the ones advanced by crowd economics, …” (tags: techmeme memeorandum knowledge blogging) \[...\] **[TechMeme, Bitchmeme, Watercooler » Webomatica - Technology and Entertainment Digest](http://www.webomatica.com/wordpress/2007/10/21/techmeme-bitchmeme-watercooler/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 08:51:20 \[...\] TechMeme does foster an “echo effect.” This post is a case in point. It’s like one sees a bunch of people yapping about a \[...\] **[sean coon](http://www.dotmatrixproject.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 10:32:41 [change](http://www.seancoon.org/2007/09/on%5Fhiatus.html?ref=chrismessina.me) is good. **Christopher Allen** ¡ 2007-10-21 15:50:39 I left TechMeme and similar pages a while ago because of what I call "Tyranny of the Popular". Of the entirety of the long tail of conversations on the web, I don't want all the huge tail end, but I also don't want the asymptotic top of the tail either. No tools I've found yet can help me automate finding these 'tween conversions. **[Jeremiah Owyang](http://www.web-strategist.com/blog/2007/10/16/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 18:18:22 I completely agree, there's so much echo, and that's why I wrote this piece http://www.web-strategist.com/blog/2007/10/16/bloggers-stop-wasting-techmeme-real-estate/ **[Alexander van Elsas](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 23:21:18 Hi Chris, it's not just TechMeme, but also the major sites all coming up wiht the same "exclusive" scoops. People get into a vacuum and don't get out of it, unless you change your reading behavior. But there is still lots of new and great things to be found on the web: http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2007/10/15/re-discovering-great-things-on-the-web/ ### In Google-Apple partnership, Jobs gets the Bill Gates he always wanted URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/in-google-apple-partnership-jobs-gets-the-bill-gates-he-always-wanted/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:18.000Z ![Steve Jobs and Bill Gates](http://myskitch.com/factoryjoe/jobs_and_gates-20071019-015437.jpg) Some time ago I read [Founders at Work](http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFounders-Work-Stories-Startups-Early%2Fdp%2F1590597141%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1192771256%26sr%3D8-1&tag=factorycity-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&ref=chrismessina.me) and learned quite a lot about the early days of Apple, as told from Steve Wozniak's perspective. What was most remarkable was how close Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and Wozniak all were to one another, and to the early foundations of the personal computer. It seems like Jobs has always been been driven, forceful and something of a *nerdjock*, whereas the geeks he surrounded himself with (for their technical prowess) were just plain nerds (i.e. Bill Gates and Wozniak). Nowadays it seems that Jobs has found folks to hang out with that are more his type: fewer pocket-protectors, more social skills, better servers. I'm of course talking about the folks at Google. And I've been [going](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/09/theories-about-googles-acquisition-of-jaiku/?ref=chrismessina.me) [on](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/11/so-mozilla-wants-to-go-mobile-eh/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [on about](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/17/did-the-web-fail-the-iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me) [their strategic relationship](http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/aug/29bod.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and how important it is for some time, but finally I can point to arch-curmudgeon [Nick Carr](http://www.roughtype.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) to speak for me. In "[Google, Apple and the future of personal computing](http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2007/10/google%5Fapple%5Fan.php?ref=chrismessina.me)", he observes: > At this very moment, in a building somewhere in Silicon Valley, I guarantee you that a team of engineers from Google and Apple are designing a set of devices that, hooked up as terminals to Google's "supercomputer," will define how we use computers in the future. You can see various threads of this system today - in Apple's iPhone and iPod Touch, its dot-mac service, its iLife and iWork applications as well as in Google's Apps suite and advertising system, not to mention its vast data-center network. What this team is doing right now is weaving all those threads together into what will be, for most of us, the fabric of cloud computing. (This is so big, you need at least two metaphors to describe it.) Here's how the partnership works. Apple is taking responsibility for "the user interface and people." It's designing the devices themselves, which will be typically elegant machines that run versions of OS X. While Apple puts together the front end of the integrated network-computing system, Google provides "the perfect back end" - the supercomputer that provides the bulk of the data-processing might and storage capacity for the devices. While the devices will come with big flash drives to ensure seamless computing despite the vagaries of network traffic, all data will be automatically backed up into Google's data centers, and those centers will also serve up most of the applications that the devices run. The applications themselves will represent the joint efforts of Google and Apple - this, I'm sure, is the trickiest element of the partnership - and will be supplemented, of course, by myriad web-delivered software services created by other companies (many of which will, in due course, also run on Google's supercomputer). Well, it's nice to know that someone else sees the potentiality of this relationship. [](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atomic+wedgie&ref=chrismessina.me)And it's also nice to know that, in Google, Steve Jobs has found a couple more stylish nerd types that finally *appreciate* the more suave and sophisticated side of his geekdom. Together, finally, they're going to give Bill Gates the [atomic wedgie](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atomic+wedgie&ref=chrismessina.me) of his life. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Steve Borsch](http://www.iconnectdots.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-19 07:00:29 To me, this connection has been so obvious for so long that I wrote these two posts that mostly sync with what Nick Carr surmises: Will Apple Own Mass Market Web Applications? http://www.iconnectdots.com/ctd/2006/12/will\_apple\_own\_.html Will Safari be an Rich Internet Application Container? http://www.iconnectdots.com/ctd/2007/06/will\_apples\_saf.html **[Buzz Andersen](http://www.scifihifi.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 01:14:20 You know, I've been meaning to write about this for a long time (maybe when I finally get the Sci-Fi Hi-Fi blog relaunched I finally will), but in a nutshell, I think people tend to give companies like Apple and Google way too much credit for this sort of long term thinking. One of my favorite examples of this was reading Dave Winer awhile back talking about podcasting being added to iTunes, and how it was evidence of this massive strategy Apple had been brewing up. In reality, from what I saw, it was far more of an afterthought. Hell, iTunes \*itself\* was a bit of an afterthought--it's easy to forget, given what a digital music powerhouse Apple has become, but iTunes was born out of a perception that Apple was lagging the PC market in digital media by not bundling CD burning drives. Meanwhile, while I'm no expert on Google, what I've seen there leads me to believe that, while they've got some general ideas about what they want to do in terms of massive computing power, they're flailing around as much as anyone trying to figure out what their next big thing is going to be. Even this supposed Apple/Google alliance is, I think, far less organized and concrete than people would like to believe. My suspicion is that both companies have some general ideas about where they're headed and how they might work together, but beyond that any collaboration is pretty ad-hoc. **[Google Chrome Roundup](http://www.techlifeweb.com/2008/09/02/google-chrome-roundup/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 07:44:26 \[...\] Turns out that it’s going to be Apple and Google who will usher in the future of browsers, and who will get to determine just what that future of \[...\] ### Did the web fail the iPhone? URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/did-the-web-fail-the-iphone/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:38.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1603819914/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Ian](http://ian.mckellar.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) [might be right](http://twitter.com/ianmckellar/statuses/342940292?ref=chrismessina.me), but not because of Steve's [announcement today](http://www.tuaw.com/2007/10/17/apple-we-plan-to-have-an-iphone-sdk-in-developers-hands-in-fe/?ref=chrismessina.me) about [opening up the iPhone](http://www.techmeme.com/071017/p57?ref=chrismessina.me#a071017p57). Indeed, my reaction so far has been one of quasi-resignation and disappointment. A voice inside me whimpers, "Don't give up on the web, Steve! Not yet!" [](http://www.iphonedevcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)You have to understand that when [I got involved](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/07/06/why-im-involved-in-iphonedevcamp/?ref=chrismessina.me) in helping to plan [iPhoneDevCamp](http://iphonedevcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), we didn't call it iPhone*Web*DevCamp for a reason. As far as we knew, and as far as we could see into the immediate future, the web *was* the platform of the iPhone (Steve Jobs even famously called [Safari the iPhone's SDK](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/459-iphone-sdk-its-called-safari?ref=chrismessina.me)). The hope that we were turning the corner on desktop-based applications was palpable. By keeping the platform officially closed, Apple brought about a collective channeling of energy towards the development of [efficient and elegant web interfaces for Safari](http://www.apple.com/iphone/webapps/?ref=chrismessina.me), epitomized by [Joe Hewitt's](http://joehewitt.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [iPhone Facebook App](http://iphone.facebook.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) ([started as a project](http://www.joehewitt.com/blog/introducing%5Fiui.php?ref=chrismessina.me) around iPhoneDevCamp and now continued on as [iUI](http://code.google.com/p/iui/?ref=chrismessina.me) by [Christopher Allen](http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), founder of the [iPhoneWebDev group](http://groups.google.com/group/iphonewebdev?ref=chrismessina.me)). And we were just getting started. **...So the questions on my mind today are:** [**was this the plan all along**](http://www.stevenberlinjohnson.com/2007/10/apple-opens-up.html?ref=chrismessina.me)**? Or, was Steve forced into action by outside factors?** [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1604124521/?ref=chrismessina.me)***If* this were the case all along**, I'd be getting pretty fed up with these kind of costly and duplicitous shenanigans. For godsake, Steve could at least afford to stop being so contradictory! First he [lowers the price of the iPhone](http://blog.wired.com/business/2007/09/four-mistakes-a.html?ref=chrismessina.me) months after releasing it, then [drops the price of DRM-free tracks](http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/10/16/itunes.plus.price.drop/?ref=chrismessina.me) (after charging people to "upgrade their music"), and now he's promising a software SDK in February, pledging that an "open" platform "is a step in the right direction" (after [bricking people's phones](http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/10/iphone%5Fbricking.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and launching an [iPhone WebApps directory](http://www.apple.com/webapps/?ref=chrismessina.me), seemingly in faux support of [iPhone Web App developers](http://developer.apple.com/iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Now, ***if* this weren't in the plan all along**, then Apple looks like a victim of the promise — and hype — of the *web as platform*. (I'll entertain this notion, while keeping in mind that Apple rarely changes direction due to outside influence, especially on product strategy.) Say that everything Steve said during [his keynote](http://www.apple.com/iphone/keynote/?ref=chrismessina.me) *were* true and he (and folks at Apple) really did believe that the web was the platform of the future — most importantly, the platform of *Apple's future* — this kind of reversal would have to be pretty disappointing inside Apple as well. Especially considering their cushy arrangement with Google and the unlikelihood that Mac hardware will ever outsell PCs (so long as Apple has the exclusive right to produce Mac hardware), it makes sense that Apple sees its future in a virtualized, connected world, where its apps, its content and its business is made online and in selling thin clients, rather than in the kind of business where Microsoft made its billions, selling dumb boxes and expiring licenses to the software that ran on them. If you actually read Apple's [guide for iPhone content and application development](http://developer.apple.com/iphone/designingcontent.html?ref=chrismessina.me), you'd have to believe that they get the web when they call for: - Understanding User-iPhone Interaction - *Using Standards* and Tried-and-True Design Practices - Integrating with Phone, Mail, and Maps - Optimizing for Page Readability - Ensuring a Great Audio and Video Experience (while Flash is not supported) These aren't the marks of a company that is trying to embrace and extend the web into its own proprietary nutshell. Heck, they even [support microformats in their product reviews](http://explore.twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/308632852?ref=chrismessina.me). It seems so badly that they want the web — the *open web* — to succeed given all the rhetoric so far. Why backslide now? Well, to get back to the title of this post, **I can't but help feel like the web failed the iPhone**. For one thing, [native apps are a known quantity for developers](http://wilshipley.com/blog/2007/07/iphones-ajax-sdk-no-thank-you.html?ref=chrismessina.me). There are plenty of tools for developing native applications and interfaces that don't require you to learn some arcane layout language that doesn't even have the concept of "columns". You don't need to worry about setting up servers and hosting and availability and all the headaches of running web apps. And without offering "[services in the cloud](http://code.google.com/hosting/?ref=chrismessina.me)" to make web application hosting and serving a piece of cake, Apple kind of shot itself in the foot with its developers who again, aren't so keen on the ways of the web. Flipped around, as a proponent of the web, even *I* can admit how unexciting standard interfaces on the web are. And how much work and knowledge it requires to compete with the likes of Adobe's AIR and Microsoft's SilverLight. I mean, us non-proprietary web-types rejoice when Safari gets support for [CSS-based rounded corners](http://www.the-art-of-web.com/css/border-radius/?ref=chrismessina.me) and the ability to [use non-standard typefaces](http://webkit.org/blog/124/downloadable-fonts/?ref=chrismessina.me). SRSLY? The latter feature [was specified *in 1998*](http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200710/the%5Fresurrection%5Fof%5Fdownloadable%5Fweb%5Ffonts/?ref=chrismessina.me)! What took so long?! No wonder native app developers aren't crazy about web development for the iPhone. Why should they be? At least considering where we're at today, there's a lot to despise about modern web design and to despair about how little things have improved in the last 10 years. And yet, there's a lot to love too, but not the kind of stuff that makes iPhone developers want to abandon what's familiar, comfortable, safe, accessible and hell, *sexy*. It's true, for example, that with the web you get massive distribution. It means you don't need a framework like [Sparkle](http://sparkle.andymatuschak.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) to keep your apps up-to-date. You can localize your app in as many languages as you like, and based on your web stats, can get a sense for which languages you should prioritize. With protocols like [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), you get access to all kind of data that won't be available solely on a user's system (especially when it comes to the iPhone which dispenses with "Save" functionality) as well a way to uniquely identify your customers across applications. And you get the heightened probability that someone might come along and look to integrate with or add value to your service via some kind of API, without requiring any additional download to the user's system. And the benefits go on. But you get the point. Even still, these benefits weren't enough to sway iPhone developers, nor, apparently, Steve Jobs. And to the degree to which the web is lacking in features and functionality that would have allowed to Steve to hold off a little longer, **there is opportunity to improve and expand upon what I call the collection of "web primitives" that compose the complete palette of interaction options for developers who call the web their native platform.** The simple form controls, the [lightboxes](http://www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox/?ref=chrismessina.me), the [static embedded video and audio](http://www.fistfulayen.com/blog/?p=127&ref=chrismessina.me), the moo tools and scriptaculouses... they still don't stack up against native (*read*: proprietary) interface controls. And we can do better. We *must* to do better! We need to improve what's going *inside the browser frame*, not just around it. It's not enough to make a JavaScript compiler faster or even to add support for [SVG](http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/?ref=chrismessina.me) (though it helps). We need to define, design and construct new primitives for the web, that make it super simple, straight-forward and *extremely satisfying* to develop for the web. I don't know how it is that web developers have for so long put up with the frustrations and idiosyncrasies of web application development. And I guess, as far as the iPhone goes, they won't have to anymore. It's a shame really. We could have done so much together. The web and the iPhone, that is. We could have made such sweet music. Especially when folks realize that Steve *was* right and developing for Safari *is* the future of application development, they'll have wished that they had invested in and lobbied for richer and better tools and interfaces for what will inevitably become the future of rich internet application development and, no surprise, [the future of the iPhone and all its kin](http://blog.wired.com/business/2007/10/does-the-iphone.html?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Luke Dorny](http://lukedorny.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-17 16:10:00 Well, more casualties, though not as massive as full-on Apps like Audion, et al., still casualties. So, that chops the value of about 8 months of web dev by myriad folks in half? Or perhaps some of these web apps will retain their value beyond 08's new SDK… **[Daniel Jalkut](http://jalkut@red-sweater.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-17 16:10:49 The web and iPhone *still can* do so much together. It's just that now the web isn't being forced to try to provide services that are insanely more appropriate for native apps. Let the web be the web, and let the desktop app be the desktop app. Perhaps the most exciting apps of all on the iPhone will in fact be the hybrid native/web apps. I know how much you like these types of apps on the Mac. There's a reason they exist on the Mac, too, you know. The web isn't very good at many kinds of apps, and I'm not sure there's much advantage in it trying to compete in those arenas. **[Eric Skiff](http://glitchnyc.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-17 16:21:04 I'm of two minds about this. I love the things that have been done with iPhone webapps, but the real problem for me is offline mode. Most of the time I'm using my phone, I'm in the subway. If there were a great way for the Safari and the iPhone to marry to a local database (like Gears or AIR), they could have a "safe" SDK that was safer from badware. I'll be very curious to see what the iPhone SDK looks like when it comes out. **[Dimitri Glazkov](http://glazkov.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-17 17:22:17 My pingbacks/trackbacks are kaput, so I have to do this manually: http://glazkov.com/blog/my-iphone-sdk/ **[John Dowdelljd](http://weblogs.macromedia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-17 18:34:51 Hi Chris, a small sidenote on the "compete with Flash and Silverlight; we rejoice when Safari..." line. (I'd quote directly, but for some reason I can't select your text directly in this Opera browser on my Nokia tablet.) The Adobe Integrated Runtime (AIR) is a way to extend browser work to the desktop. It uses the Webkit rendering technology for HTML/JS/CSS, same as the Safari browser you mention in the next sentence. AIR cannot compete with HTML, because AIR \*is\* HTML -- well-formed HTML work renders within AIR as-is, and can also use additional optional APIs for desktop presence, notifications, local storage, windowing, local file access and more. Microsoft's Silverlight, like Adobe Flash Player and Google Gears, is a legitimate way to extend the various browsers' abilities. Netscape Plugins arrived at the same time as JavaScript, back in Netscape 2.0\. Whether a particular project should be done in HTML/JS/CSS, or SWF, or XAML or whatever depends more on the needs of the particular project than on general branding, because the capabilities of each technology vary so greatly. No big thing... it's just that when I see a line like "HTML competing with AIR or Silverlight" then I get as dizzy as if someone socked me in the jaw. These are three different types of complementary technologies: HTML browsers, browser extensions, and desktop HTML applications. I won't be able to follow up on this conversation (I'm on sabbatical in China right now), but I hope we can agree on this...? tx, jd/adobe **[Mathew Patterson](http://www.mrpatto.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-17 21:30:36 Why the arbitrary distinction between 'web apps' and internet-connected native applications? That gives you the best of both worlds for some uses. All the power, the local storage and access to hardware with the flexibility and interoperability of the web. **[Buzz Andersen](http://www.scifihifi.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-17 23:48:50 I think part of the reason people are so excited about this is it will theoretically allow people to use the \*native\* resources of the phone--offline storage, access to the camera and sensors, full use of the multitouch interface. Even if Apple was to provide access to those things through Javascript within MobileSafari or something, it wouldn't exactly be what you'd call web standards. I'm very much with Daniel on the idea that there's not some sort of moral superiority to the web. Web apps are naturally better suited to some things, desktop apps are better for other things, and hybrids of the two can be even more compelling than either on their own. I expect you'll be seeing an awful lot of hybrids built on the iPhone SDK. I'm sure over time the distinction between web apps and desktop apps will start to be less and less meaningful, but for now I think it's absolutely advantageous for the iPhone to be able to support both. **[53MILES » Blog Archive » Dear Apple: please do not dismiss the web](http://www.53miles.com/archives/dear-apple-please-do-not-dismiss-the-web?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-18 03:23:37 \[...\] more commentary, check out this post by Chris Messina. Just thought I’d post it here because… well, I still don’t have \[...\] **shivangi** ¡ 2007-10-18 04:10:13 Hi Chris Just a little inquiry. How can i subscribe to RSS feeds to your website? I did not notice any link that enables me to that! Help! **[Did the web fail the iPhone? via FactoryCity at iPhones in RTP](http://iphonesinrtp.com/2007/10/18/did-the-web-fail-the-iphone-via-factorycity/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-18 05:19:39 \[...\] Did the web fail the iPhone? | FactoryCity Share This Stumble it! \[...\] **[Adam Keys](http://therealadam.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-18 10:30:55 There's so much to say about the divide between desktop developers and web app developers. On the one hand they have proprietary but easy to construct UIs; on the other hand we can just View Source on each other's UIs \_and\_ behavioral logic. They've got native code and nice APIs, we've got tons of data to leverage. I'll pre-empt the rambling here. To me, Brent Simmons writing on hybrid desktop/web apps will be (mostly) "the way" going forward. We'll have to meet somewhere in the middle to figure out what should be web-ish and what should be desktop-ish. It also makes things like WebRunner and XULRunner \_really\_ important in the Open Source ecosystem. **[Brad Neuberg](http://codinginparadise.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-19 01:01:33 Dude, we are so on the same page when it comes to boosting the web's basic primitives. I've been feeling exactly the same way lately, and have been very frustrated with Ajax these days -- I'm like, it's 2007 and I \*still\* have to do so much crap to eke 2 and 3 columns out of CSS?!?! If you ever wanna grab a beer or coffee and brainstorm about this stuff shoot me a line. Hope all is well, Brad **[Daniel Lackey](http://danakin.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-19 09:38:47 The internet can definitely be used as an application environment, I don't think anybody at Apple dismisses that. The thing is, take away your internet access and what do you have? No access to your applications. Say internet goes out for a day; all of a sudden you have a bricked-ish phone. As an anti-Apple guy, I'll admit that when I first heard about the iPhone, I was pumped and primed to get one, but upon hearing that you can't actually have applications aside from through Safari, my rare Apple fanboydom subsided rapidly. It isn't as if web apps can't continue to be developed. If that is your cup of tea, then go for it. But for the other 90% of users out there, they would rather have standalone applications AND web applications they can access at will. **[Blog2Live… » Blog Archive » Did the Web fail the iPhone?](http://www.ddg.com/~awd/blog/2007/10/19/did-the-web-fail-the-iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-19 09:39:07 \[...\] Messina has written a thoughtful but, I think, wrong post about Apple changing course and allowing native applications on an \[...\] **[BlogTrage » Did Web-only development fail the iPhone?](http://www.blogtrage.com/2007/10/19/did-web-only-development-fail-the-iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-19 10:43:47 \[...\] thoughtful post over at FactoryJoe.com asks whether the Web failed the iPhone. Apple’s initial decision to support only Web 2.0 third-party apps on the iPhone gave the \[...\] **[Eugene Chan](http://www.zerodivide.org/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-19 11:25:46 Hmmm, is iTunes a web app or a client app? Maybe that's Apple's model for the iPhone. **[PXLated](http://www.geise.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-20 06:16:07 I think Eugene nails it. If we had ubiquitous, broadband internet access we might be able to use a web model to much more effect (Surfin Safari just posted about local SQL storage) but we don't and we're a long way from it. I'll take a desktop or hybrid model over a web app any day in the current state of the state. **Justgivemecoolapps** ¡ 2007-11-02 21:54:30 Guess what gang, the consumer, who really benefits from what you guys build, really doesn't care what platform apps are built on. No, they care that they exist, function as expected and perform well. That's it. I want cool new apps not apps limited by a platform choice, a choice made solely for the sake of the platform. Sorry, but consumers care about the end, not the means of getting there, unless the means yields a less than satisfactory end. **[Alyson](http://etc.cmu.edu/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-07 13:03:32 Some of the students in our graduate program are interested in pitching a semester long project to tackle this problem. Perhaps together we could make some ehad way on unique web based apps that could compete with native apps... Anyone interested to help out or give us ideas please let me know! Grad program: entertainment technology center, carnegie mellon university **[globalburger.net » Blog Archive » The Future of Media](http://globalburger.net/?p=75&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-24 11:27:42 \[...\] then you will miss out on a whole whack of the market. The idea of the WebApp (Check out what Chris Messina has to say about this) will allow developers to write their software for any device that has some \[...\] **[Sally, web designer](http://www.ecommerce-land.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 02:46:18 You are right Chris. If the web and iPhone cooperated, we could do a lot of pretty things together. **[My iPhone SDK « Dimitri Glazkov](http://glazkov.com/2007/10/17/my-iphone-sdk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-06 04:57:16 \[...\] all that, it is only logical to assume that I am siding with Chris on the mournful thoughts for the Web-based application development on the delectable slice of \[...\] **[Shreyas Srinivasan » Blog Archive » Chrome Game](http://blogs.gnome.org/shres/2008/09/03/chrome-game/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-03 00:36:36 \[...\] released an SDK it was an admission of defeat. Chris Messina put it beautifully in his blog post Did the web fail the iphone?. With millions of developers and amazing momentum the web has too much to offer for it to not be \[...\] **[Chrome Game | Technology, Design, User Experience et al](http://techandsundry.com/?p=3&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-06 06:19:16 \[...\] released an SDK it was an admission of defeat. Chris Messina put it beautifully in his blog post Did the web fail the iphone?. With millions of developers and amazing momentum the web has too much to offer for it to not be \[...\] ### Data capital, or: data as common tender URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/data-capital-or-data-as-common-tender/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:17.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1592178413/?ref=chrismessina.me)Wikipedia states that [Legal tender](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal%5Ftender?ref=chrismessina.me) ... is payment that, by law, cannot be refused in settlement of a debt denominated in the same currency. [Currency](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency?ref=chrismessina.me), in turn, is a unit of exchange, facilitating the transfer of goods and/or services. I was asked a question earlier today about the relative value of open services against open data served in open, non-proprietary data formats. It got me thinking whether — in the pursuit of utter openness in web services and portability in stored data — that's the right question. Are we providing the right incentives for people and companies to go open? Is it self-fulfilling or manifest destiny to arrive at a state of universal identity and service portability leading to unfettered consumer choice? Is this how we achieve [VRM](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor%5FRelationship%5FManagement?ref=chrismessina.me) nirvana, or is there something missing in our assumptions and current analysis? Mary Jo Foley touched on this topic today in a post called [Are all ‘open’ Web platforms created equal?](http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=833&ref=chrismessina.me) She asks the question whether Microsoft's PC-driven worldview can be modernized to compete in the network-centric world of Web 2.0 where no single player dominates but rather is made up of Best of Breed APIs/services from across the Web. The question she alludes to is a poignant one: even if you go open (and Microsoft has, by any estimation), will anyone care? Even if you dress up your data and jump through hoops to please developers, will they actually take advantage of what you have to offer? Or is there something else to the equation that we're missing? Some underlying truism that is simply [refracting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction?ref=chrismessina.me) falsely in light of the newfound sexiness of "going open"? [We](http://citizenagency.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) often tell our clients that one of the first things you can do to "open up" is build out an API, support microformats, adopt OpenID and OAuth. But that's just the start. That's just good data hygiene. That's brushing your teeth once a day. That's making sure your teeth don't fall out of your head. There's a broader method to this madness, but unfortunately, it's a rare opportunity when we actually get beyond *just* brushing our teeth to really getting to sink them in, going beyond remedial steps like adding microformats to web pages to crafting just-in-time, distributed open-data-driven web applications that actually *do stuff* and *make things better*. But as I said, it's a rare occasion for us because we've all been asking the wrong questions, providing the wrong incentives and [designing solutions from the perspective of the silos](http://www.wired.com/software/webservices/news/2007/10/web2walkup?ref=chrismessina.me) instead of from [the perspective of the people](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/09/23/putting-people-into-the-protocol/?ref=chrismessina.me). Let me make a point here: **if your data were legal tender, you could take it anywhere with you and it couldn't be refused if you offered to pay with it.** [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1596712381/?ref=chrismessina.me)Let me break that down a bit. The way things are today, we give away our data freely and frequently, in exchange for the use of certain services. Now, in some cases, like [Pandora](http://pandora.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) or [Last.fm](http://www.last.fm/?ref=chrismessina.me), the use of the service itself is compelling and worthwhile, providing an equal or greater exchange rate for our *behavior or taste data*. In many other cases, we sign up for a service and provide basic demographic data without any sense of what we're going to get in return, often leaving scraps of ourselves to fester all across the internet. Why do we value this data so little? Why do we give it away so freely? I learned of an interesting concept today while researching legal tender called "[Gresham's Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s%5Flaw?ref=chrismessina.me)" and commonly stated as: *When there is a legal tender currency, bad money drives good money out of circulation.* Don't worry, it took me a while to get it too. Nicolas Nelson offered the following [clarification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gresham%27s%5FLaw?ref=chrismessina.me#Law%5Fapplied%5Felsewhere): if high quality and low quality are forced to be treated equally, then folks will keep good quality things to themselves and use low quality things to exchange for more good stuff. Think about this in terms of data: if people are forced (or tricked) into thinking that the data that they enter into web applications is not being valued (or protected) by the sites that collect the data, well, eventually they'll either stop entering the data (heard of [social network fatigue](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/02/social%5Fnetwork%5F1.html?ref=chrismessina.me)?) or they'll start filling them with bogus information, leading to "bad data" driving out the "good data" from the system, ultimately leading to a kind of *data inflation*, where suddenly the problem is no longer getting people to *just* sign up for your service, but to also provide good data of some value. And this is where data portability — or *data as legal tender* — starts to become interesting and allows us to start seeing around through the distortion of the refraction. Think: *Data as currency.* Data to unlock services. Data owned, controlled, exchanged and traded by the creator of said data, instead of by the networks he has joined. For the current glut of web applications to maintain and be sustained, we must move to a system where people are in charge of their data, where they garden and maintain it, and where they are free to deposit and withdraw it from web services like people do money from banks. If you want to think about what comes next — what the proverbial "Web 3.0" is all about — it's not just about a bunch of web applications hooked up with protocols like OAuth that speak in microformats and other open data tongue back and forth to each other. That's the obvious part. The change comes when a person is in control of her data, and when the services that she uses firmly believe that she not only has a [*right*](http://apml.org/endusers/yourrights/?ref=chrismessina.me) to do as she pleases with her data, but that it is in *their best interest* to spit her data out in whatever myriad format she demands and to whichever myriad services she wishes. The "data web" is still a number of years off, but it is rapidly approaching. It does require that the silos popular today open up and transition from repositories to transactional enterprises. Once data becomes a kind of *common tender*, you no longer need to lock it; in fact, the value comes from its reuse and circulation in commerce. To some degree, [Mint](http://mint.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Wesabe](http://www.wesabe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) are doing this *retroactively* for your banking records, allowing you to add "data value" to the your monetary transactions. Next up [Google and Microsoft will do this for your health records](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/technology/14healthnet.html?ex=1344744000&en=3113f8276565e25b&ei=5088&partner=rssn&ref=chrismessina.me). For a more generic example, [Swivel](http://www.swivel.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is [doing this today](http://www.swivel.com/users/show/1004354?ref=chrismessina.me) for the OECD but has a [private edition](http://www.swivel.com/private%5Fedition?ref=chrismessina.me) [coming soon](http://blog.swivel.com/weblog/2007/10/building-swivel.html?ref=chrismessina.me). [Slife](http://slifelabs.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)/[Slifeshare](http://www.slifeshare.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [i use this](http://osx.iusethis.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [RescueTime](http://www.rescuetime.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) do this for your use of desktop apps. This isn't just attention data that I'm talking about (though the [recent announcements](http://www.particls.com/blog/2007/10/newsgator-and-bloglines-support-apml.html?ref=chrismessina.me) in support of [APML](http://apml.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) are certainly positive). This goes beyond monitoring what you're doing and how you're spending your time. I'm talking about access to all the data that it would take to reconstitute your entire digital existence. And then I'm talking about the ability to slice, dice, and splice it however you like, in pursuit of whatever ends you choose. Or choose not to. --- I'll point to a few references that influenced my thinking: [Social Capital To Show Its Worth at This Week's Web 2.0 Summit](http://www.wired.com/software/webservices/news/2007/10/web2walkup?ref=chrismessina.me), [What is Web 2.0?](http://www.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/news/2005/09/30/what-is-web-20.html?page=3&ref=chrismessina.me), [Tangled Up in the Future - Lessig and Lietaer](http://www.opensourcecurrency.org/2007/04/tangled-up-in-future-lessig-and-lietaer.html?ref=chrismessina.me), , Intentional Economics [Day 1](http://herestomwiththeweather.blogspot.com/2006/07/intentional-economics-day-1.html?ref=chrismessina.me), [Day 2](http://herestomwiththeweather.blogspot.com/2006/07/intentional-economics-day-2.html?ref=chrismessina.me), [Day 3](http://herestomwiththeweather.blogspot.com/2006/07/intentional-economics-day-3.html?ref=chrismessina.me). --- --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Twitter and the Password Anti-Pattern | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/02/twitter-and-the-password-anti-pattern/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-02 18:30:46 \[...\] when it comes to reputation online, little else matters than one’s accumulated social and data capital. Some people store their data capital (essentially original content coupled with residue from their \[...\] **[Don’t make me a target | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/11/13/dont-make-me-a-target/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-13 15:34:31 \[...\] precise information about ourselves, we stand to benefit a great deal. And privacy, then, becomes a rational, economic instrument that determines whether a company gets to serve us well (based on knowing us better) or clumsily \[...\] **[ProjectVRM Blog » Intention Economy Traction](http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/vrm/2009/11/15/intention-economy-traction/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-15 11:33:20 \[...\] precise information about ourselves, we stand to benefit a great deal. And privacy, then, becomes a rational, economic instrument that determines whether a company gets to serve us well (based on knowing us better) or clumsily \[...\] ### Modern music economics: a fierce independent streak URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/modern-music-economics-a-fierce-independent-streak/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:16.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1545171159/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Steven Hodson](http://www.winextra.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) posted a response to my IN RAINBOWS entry titled "[Being free doesn’t make crap any better](http://www.winextra.com/2007/10/10/being-free-doesnt-make-crap-any-better/?ref=chrismessina.me)". He makes the simple argument that, just because bands are freeing themselves from their labels and giving their fans the ability [to pay what they want](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/poll%5Fwhat%5Fis%5Fradioheads%5Falbum%5Fworth.php?ref=chrismessina.me) for their albums, that this won't necessarily result in higher quality music being produced. It just means that [we won't have to buy the filler crap](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/arts/music/11album.html?ref=chrismessina.me) that most bands crank out to fill out albums to convince us to shell out $18 a CD. He reminisces: > When I first started collecting music back in the days of vinyl it was commonly accepted that at least one; two at the most, tracks on the LP would be crap and usually stuffed onto the B-side of the LP. Over the years this ratio has slowly changed to the point that the majority of the time you are lucky if even half the songs are worth listening to. We became nothing but cash cows for the music industry as we lined up obediently with every big release and plunked over our hard earned money because we had no alternatives. He goes on point out the change: > Then came the Internet and suddenly we had a way to thumb our noses at the industry that had been bleeding us dry and get only the songs **we felt** were worth listening to. The days of the 45 single had returned albeit in electronic form. He then attacks what he sees as [my warm and fuzzy view](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/09/the-future-of-music-in-rainbows/?ref=chrismessina.me) of a kinder, gentler "Open Media Web" (my term, borrowed from [Songbird's](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird%5F%28software%29?ref=chrismessina.me) [Rob Lord](http://www.roblord.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) — (a client of Citizen Agency)). The comment thread seems particularly interesting, so I thought I'd reproduce it here. [I begin](http://www.winextra.com/2007/10/10/being-free-doesnt-make-crap-any-better/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-25670): > Hmm, I’m not sure that I have any illusions about the role of commerce in the decisions of these bands. Especially in the cases of Radiohead and NIN, they’ll do fine selling direct to consumers. For many other bands, especially undiscovered ones, or ones who aren’t MySpace et al-savvy, I think it’ll be a long slog before they can go completely independent. Let’s face it, you have to reach a certain amount of volume selling your wares before you can survive off of it. In any case, I wouldn’t look at this as so much a warm and fuzzy revolution, but rather the kind of circumstance that made the coming of Firefox so exciting… the ground is beginning to shift and the landscape is taking on new forms. If Firefox didn’t come around, who knows when Microsoft would have been forced to update its browser…! The same thing is true for music now with bands advocating for fans to “steal their music” (as [Trent Reznor proclaimed](http://digg.com/music/Trent%5FReznor%5FSteal%5FMy%5FMusic?ref=chrismessina.me), genius marketing if you ask me) or [advocating against the use of DRM](http://www.boingboing.net/2007/10/09/radioheads-new-downl.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (since it effectively reduces the number of people who can experience a band’s music, limiting their potential viral spread — which is where bands get their volume from!). Anyway, I see the commerce side of this. This isn’t just a “Free The Music From the Evil Tyrants” thing. This is changing the way that money is made and how it flows. An Open Media Web is about recirculation, redistribution and greater freedom of choice. Personally I hope this change (more openness and choice) brings about a Darwinian evolution where the crap begins to wane and bands are forced to actually crank out top shelf A-Sides in order to make it. We’re still a long way off, but I’m not sure, as was the case in the last post we exchanged words on, we really disagree. Steve [follows](http://www.winextra.com/2007/10/10/being-free-doesnt-make-crap-any-better/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-25670): > Chris I have to admit I always like it when you join in any of the conversations I try and spark here at WinExtra. Both from the point of view that you as a firm Web 2.0 proponent bring to the table and because you always have some intelligent feedback. Maybe that is one of the reasons why your posts tend to either spark thoughts of my own or figure prominently in my posts. I do agree that the ground is shifting under us but whether it will make any difference in the larger picture of society is highly debatable. In this bubble we call the early adopterism of all things cool we seem to suffer from a myopic view that people outside of the bubble will see things the same way. With music as much as folks who look at the current happenings hope that this will indeed foreshadow a larder trend outside of the bubble that will result in more bands being able to get out from under the thumb of music labels and become successful the fact is I think for the larger Internet world it will only see the word **FREE**. As for not disagreeing on points in discussions we have had in the past I think my next post today; which again was sparked by one of yours, may see us definitely at opposite ends LOL Thanks for taking time and being a part of my contributions to the conversation chain [Finally](http://www.winextra.com/2007/10/10/being-free-doesnt-make-crap-any-better/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-25677): > I do think there is something to the insider bubbloptics effect that keeps us somewhat sheltered from reality. And as much as I try to empathize or imagine what the rest of the world might think about such things, let’s face it, I’m like Paris Hilton thinking that I can speak for Guantanamo inmates. That said, I do have a view inside the bubble, and since I’m originally from New England, I have a curmudgeonly distrust of all things large and who think they’re in charge. Usually that means the government or Big Business, and in this case, I’m talking about the collusive record labels. Will there be some cataclysmic changing of the guard where every band joins up with a new RIAA (*Recording Independents Association of Anarchists*?) and goes Free Agent Nation on the former RIAA’s ass? Will all bands start giving away their music for free? Or better yet, seeding copies of their albums to the BitTorrent networks themselves? I doubt it. BUT, what is important here is that Radiohead, NIN and the others are waking up from their somnambulant stupor and realizing, in [Harrison Bergeron](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison%5FBergeron?ref=chrismessina.me) fashion, that they do indeed have free will and can take risks (instead of just pot shots) with their own careers if they so choose. And since the actualization of choice is tantamount to establishing that one has free will, marketing-driven or not, the fact is, their model will become an inspiration for an entire generation who won’t just assume that the only way to make it is through signing away your life and becoming a slave to the economics you decried in your post, but instead that they can consider alternative routes to success and satisfaction and more importantly, more genuine or original ways to create and be involved with music, less as a Business, and more as an Art. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[archGFX | Cool, but not innovative](http://archgfx.net/blog/2007/music/cool-but-not-innovative?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-22 10:31:33 \[...\] been a lot of pontificating about the new Radiohead album, and how it's hastening the demise of the recording industry. Largely because of Nine Inch Nails's \[...\] ### So Mozilla wants to go mobile, eh? URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/so-mozilla-wants-to-go-mobile-eh/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:39.000Z As with baseball, on the web we have our home teams and our underdogs and our all-stars; we have our upsets, our defeats, and our glorious wins in the bottom of the ninth. And though I'm actually not much of a baseball fan anymore (though growing up in New England, I was exposed to plenty of Red Sox fever), I do relate my feelings for Mozilla to the way a lot of folks felt about the Red Sox before they finally [won the World Series](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston%5FRed%5FSox?ref=chrismessina.me#2004:%5FWorld%5FChampions) and [broke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse%5Fof%5Fthe%5FBambino?ref=chrismessina.me#Curse%5FReversed) the [Curse of the Bambino](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse%5Fof%5Fthe%5FBambino?ref=chrismessina.me): that is, I identify with Mozilla as *my team*, but dammit if they don't [frustrate me](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/05/10/thoughts-on-mozilla/?ref=chrismessina.me) on occasion. [Tara](http://horsepigcow.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) wonders why I spend so much time on Mozilla when clearly I'm a perennial critic of the direction they're headed in and the decisions that they make. But then Tara also didn't grow up around vocal critics of the Red Sox who expressed their dedication and patronage to the team through their constant criticism and anger. It might not make sense, and it might not seem worth my time, but whatever the case, you really can't be neutral about Mozilla and still consider yourself a fan. Even if you disagree with everything decision that they make, they're still the home team of the *Open Web* and heck, even as you bitch and whine about this or about that, you really just want to see them do well, oftentimes in spite of themselves. So, with that said, let me give you a superficial summary of what I think about Mozilla's [recent announcement](http://www.techmeme.com/071010/p19?ref=chrismessina.me#a071010p19) about [their mobile strategy](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/schrep/archives/2007/10/mozilla%5Fand%5Fmobile.html?ref=chrismessina.me): - [Too little, too late.](#too-little-too-late) - [Are they a product or a platform company?](#are-they-a-product) - [XUL is their widget platform? SRSLY?](#xul-is-their-widget-platform) - [Is Google putting them up to this? Or is it Intel?](#is-google) - [Follow the money](#follow-the-money). - [Go Red Sox!](#go-red-sox) If you want to stop reading now, you can, but the details and background of my reasoning might be somewhat interesting to you. I make no promises though. ### Too little, too late. It's as though Alexander Graham Bell woke from the dead and realized — *now* — that people like telephones, but they like them *more* without the wires. Having realized this, he suddenly wants to start building "*moh-byle telephones*". Mozilla's been flogging Firefox as an answer to Internet Explorer's *desktop* hegemony (rather successfully) for forever, with no outright emphasis on the mobile web. 'Til yesterday, when [seemingly out of the blue](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/mozilla%5Fmobile.php?ref=chrismessina.me), they announce that they plan to rock it. Did I fall asleep? Where did that come from? [Opera](http://www.opera.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) has long since thought to be the owner of the [Mobile Web](http://www.operamini.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), but cracks in its dominance have been made more obvious ever since the iPhone came on the scene and demonstrated what you can do with [souped up hardware](http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me#technology), a [touchscreen](http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me#touch) and [a browser with a zooming interface](http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me#safari). So between WebKit/Safari and Opera Mini, there are already two fairly capable mobile browsers. [A third is choice certainly welcome](http://www.russellbeattie.com/blog/the-moz-wants-to-go-mobile?ref=chrismessina.me), but unless Mozilla's got some OEM deals that they haven't told anyone about ([TrollTech](http://trolltech.com/products/qtopia/greenphone/?ref=chrismessina.me) perchance?), I'm not sure how they plan on *getting on to* mobile handsets considering how closed mobile phone hardware is. (Unless of course Google *does* have a phone in the works... but then that would fly against [my theory](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/09/theories-about-googles-acquisition-of-jaiku/?ref=chrismessina.me) that Apple is the hardware maker and [Google is the web OS provider](http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/google-mozilla-and-the-open-source-phone/?ref=chrismessina.me) in that relationship, wouldn't it?) Well, let's leave that issue alone for now. My take away here: what the heck [took Mozilla so long](http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2007/10/10/mozilla-arriving-late-to-the-mobile-party?ref=chrismessina.me) to get serious about the mobile web? I shruggingly welcome their arrival, but damn, they've got some catch up work to do! ### Are they a product or a platform company? This point brings me back to May when I posted my [original rant about Mozilla](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/05/10/thoughts-on-mozilla/?ref=chrismessina.me) and my concern about their decision to focus on *Firefox as product* rather than *Mozilla as platform*. After a few months of thinking over my position, I realized the wisdom of their decision. It seemed that, if there were going to compete in the wide world (read: *corporate*) against Internet Explorer et al., they probably should focus their collective might on making the best possible *product* and then market the hell out of it. I don't actually think this will work long term, but it sure makes for a comfortable and well-known approach to selling a product. But just as I was getting used to that idea, Mozilla started to flip flop worse than John Kerry in a Presidential started to backpedal. It seems that they were kidding about focusing solely on Firefox and instead wanted to go after whatever fell out of the free tree and hit them on the head. I mean, [reviving Eudora](http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;881422451?ref=chrismessina.me)? Threatening to [put to pasture](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2007/07/email%5Ffutures.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and then [spinning off Thunderbird](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2007/09/mozillas%5Fnew%5Ffocus%5Fon%5Fthunderb.html?ref=chrismessina.me)? And now — what? — *porting* Firefox to mobile handsets? Like that's not an epic diversion. My original contention was that Mozilla should focus on a non-proprietary open web platform to compete with the likes of Adobe's [AIR](http://www.adobe.com/go/air?ref=chrismessina.me) and Microsoft's [Silverlight](http://www.microsoft.com/silverlight/?ref=chrismessina.me). Instead I was rebuked and they said that they were going to [focus on the browser](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2007/05/application%5Fvs%5Fplatform%5Ffocus.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Now they're back to activities that smell like platform theatrics (primarily through promoting XUL for mobile applications). What gives? ### XUL is their widget platform? SRSLY? [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1547373276/?ref=chrismessina.me)Speaking of XUL, what's this about using it as their platform technology for the mobile web? Aren't you [learning anything from Apple](http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/09/26/is-apple-evil/?ref=chrismessina.me) besides the fact that the world is fed up with the status quo in mobile experiences? Apple is *expressly* [moving away](http://www.apple.com/webapps/?ref=chrismessina.me) from browser ***chrome*** enhancements and [pushing all their effort](http://www.moconews.net/entry/419-apples-web-20-app-plans/?ref=chrismessina.me) ***inside*** the browser frame. This isn't an accident. **Why is Mozilla still focusing on the cruft around the web page** when the real value is in [developing new web primitives inside the frame](http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/09/24/iphone-and-the-future-of-apps/?ref=chrismessina.me)? Ok, to put it another way, Apple [Dashboard Widgets](http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/?ref=chrismessina.me) are made of HTML, JavaScript, CSS. [Opera Widgets](http://widgets.opera.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) are made of a little XML, HTML, JavaScript, CSS. [Yahoo Widgets](http://widgets.yahoo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) are made of a little XML, JavaScript and CSS. [Microsoft Gadgets](http://gallery.live.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) use XML, JavaScript and CSS. [iGoogle Widgets](http://www.google.com/ig/directory?ref=chrismessina.me) are [made up](http://www.google.com/intl/en/apis/gadgets/gs.html?ref=chrismessina.me#Introduction) of a little XML, HTML, JavaScript and CSS. While I understand that XUL is basically XML + JavaScript + CSS, it's still foreign to most web developers and designers and it's not compatible with any other web browser. So why bet on it for the future of your mobile platform? It's a dead end. Why not embrace the future and make full compliance with CSS3, HTML5 and support for XForms and microformats the totality of your platform, [as you suggested other folks do](http://shaver.off.net/diary/2007/05/10/the-high-cost-of-some-free-tools/?ref=chrismessina.me)? It's stuff like this that freaks me out: > We will ship a version of "Mobile Firefox" which can, among other things, run Firefox extensions on mobile devices and allow others to build rich applications via XUL. [](http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/03/28/do-not-want-3/?ref=chrismessina.me)Gah! Noooo! I hate to say it, but Apple gets it. It's one thing for your PC to crash and slow to a crawl because you've installed 43 extensions that all jockey for processor priority; when it comes to my phone, sorry, but I simply DO NOT WANT the instability, crashiness and power drainage that comes with browser extensions on the phone. Keep it inside the chrome and I'll be happy. Give me a legit GOD mode for my phone and I'll be happy. But if you're going to push for mobile application development and widget production, keep it web-friendly and avoid custom XML stuff that isn't doesn't belong on the web. ### Is Google putting them up to this? Or is it Intel? I'm sure I'll get some people's backs up with this comment, since [Mozilla folks hate to think of themselves](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/05/10/thoughts-on-mozilla/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-85965) as having their priorities dictated by anyone but themselves (I suppose that's why [open source and libertarianism](http://opensource.org/node/184?ref=chrismessina.me) goes so well together) but let's face it: if Mozilla doesn't come up with a compelling mobile strategy soon, Google will happily adopt Apple's WebKit browser for their gPhone OS. [Eric Schmidt's on Apple's board](http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/aug/29bod.html?ref=chrismessina.me) with a vengeance. If he has his way, the open source browser of choice for Google will no longer be the darling of the open source community (i.e. Firefox), but Steve Job's upstart [WebKit project](http://webkit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). WebKit already has a huge lead over Firefox in bringing a mobile browser to market on a highly functional mobile device. Why would Google place their bet with Mozilla, who's only now entering into the fray and up until yesterday didn't seem to realize the importance of a mobile strategy? Then again, let's set aside Apple and Google for a moment. Instead, let's contemplate that conspicuous mention of Intel in Schep's post: > You can already get a Mozilla-based browser for the [Nokia N800](http://browser.garage.maemo.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and Firefox is a key part of [Ubuntu Mobile](http://www.ossblog.it/post/3021/matt-zimmerman-on-ubuntu-mobile?ref=chrismessina.me) and the new [Intel Internet Project](http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2007/07/19/intel-launches-site-for-open-source-mobile-linux-development?ref=chrismessina.me), and most recently ARM has put [serious](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/04/arm%5Flinux/?ref=chrismessina.me) effort towards Firefox on mobile devices. [Moblin](http://www.moblin.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), Intel's "Mobile & Internet Linux Project" relies on a [version of Mozilla](http://www.moblin.org/projects%5Fbrowser.php?ref=chrismessina.me). With Schep's additional emphasis on the improvements in mobile hardware, it seems perfectly reasonable that more capable mobile web experiences are going to demand faster processes and better hardware. Who benefits more from such circumstances than the folks who sell that kind of technology? And why else would [Intel be pioneering an open source operating system based on Linux](http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9302797289.html?ref=chrismessina.me) that uses as its center-piece an optimized version of Firefox? It certainly wouldn't hurt to open some new markets for its more advanced mobile processors... that's for sure. So I've got nothing solid here, just wanting to point out that a capable Mozilla browser means that Intel has a free alternative to licensing more of Microsoft's technology for mobile devices. ### Follow the money. But let's follow the money for a moment. Intel probably has long term designs on offering a full stack open source platform in order to sell more processors, but that's pretty benign. It also results in, well, an *open source mobile operating system* that — who knows — could be installed over the iPhone's OS (not sure why you'd want to, but it could happen) or on TrollTech's [GreenPhone](http://trolltech.com/products/qtopia/greenphone/?ref=chrismessina.me). And that's the beauty of open source business models: they cut both ways. Sure, it'll sell more hardware for Intel, but it'll also give folks more choice over what to run on that hardware. Everyone wins. Okay okay, but let's get back to Google, Apple and Mozilla and look at an overlooked economics opportunity here. Let me put it simply: **she who makes the browser,** [**makes the money from search box revenue**](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2005/04/thinking%5Fabout.html?ref=chrismessina.me). And for Firefox, their [search box revenue is so significant](http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3590756?ref=chrismessina.me) that Mitchell Baker [can't even talk about it](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2005/04/thinking%5Fabout.html?ref=chrismessina.me)[1](#footnote-1) (at least in 2005): > So revenue from our search relationships is encouraging. ... Revenue from search relationships doesn't provide the same sense of directly touching people's lives. But it brings diversity in funding sources and it may well provide a significant ongoing source of funds. This revenue isn't perfect however. Like so many arrangements with commercial entities, the terms of our search relationships are governed by confidentiality obligations and we are not able to say very much about them. It turns out that marketing and business data remains sensitive even for companies that have grown comfortable with developing in the open. ... It's new to have that confidential information include a financial component and I am working to find ways to make more and more information available over time. For now we are living within classic confidentiality constraints regarding these agreements, while maintaining the absolute requirement of open development. So what's this have to do with Firefox's mobile strategy? Well, you read what Schrep said: mobile devices outsell computers 20-1\. Think about that. If Opera or WebKit become the de facto browsers of the Mobile Web, all that revenue that Mozilla currently relies on to fund its [Corporate](http://en.www.mozilla.com/en/legal/articles.html?ref=chrismessina.me) activities will dry up. Insomuch as Mozilla relies on browser-based search box revenue and the Mobile Web is the great untapped [Athabasca Oil Sands](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca%5FTar%5FSands?ref=chrismessina.me) of Alberta, Canada, Mozilla's gotta get moving before Apple and Google collude and eat its lunch. **If Apple can do to mobile phones what it has done to portable media players with its iPod, the Google and Apple romance is going to start to sound annoyingly bittersweet to the folks in Mozilla land who, up until now, have relied entirely on desktop-driven search box revenue.** ### Go Red Sox! Unfortunately, the last time I rambled on and on (for a full 50 minutes, if you can believe it — this time longer, but that's because I write hella slow) a lot of folks interpreted my comments wholly negatively. Look, it's hard for an old-soul curmudgeon like me to sugarcoat my frustrations with *my* home team. Especially when I have such higher hopes and ambitions for it. I'm a Firefox stalwart supporter. I still relate to the naive optimism I had when I helped man the helm of [Spread Firefox](http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). But I've grown up a lot since then. I know better than to think that technology is only as deep as its source code. As [Jamais Cascio](http://www.openthefuture.com/2007/09/singularity%5Fsummit%5Ftalk%5Fopenne.html?ref=chrismessina.me) said recently, To put it bluntly, software, like all technologies, is inherently political. **There's more at work and more at stake here than just the future of browsers on mobile handsets.** While sometimes I wish I could go back to seeing the Red Sox as a sports team with honest heroes just trying to get to the World Series and win for the sake of the glory, I can't stop my mind from decoding the business of every pitch and the transactions in every homerun. So too is it infused in how I understand and observe the the ethics and the reality of open source that I can't separate the business and commerce from the technology that drives it. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't still support the home team. That doesn't mean that I'll stop fighting the good fight or rallying for the underdog. That doesn't mean I've given up. If I've learned anything from Red Sox fans, you *never* give up. All the same, it does means that while I'll go to bat for the home team, I won't be lied to or bamboozled; I will continue to look every gift horse in the mouth. Open source is at an inflection point. In order to preserve the purity that makes it so powerful, for my own sake, I need to be able to see the commerce in the code, the business in hardware and the truth through the spin in order to make my decisions about who I support and what I stand for. For now, I'm still rooting for the home team and hoping they can pull through. The challenges are many, the choices myriad; I'm not a purist but I still have hope.**Correction:** [Mike Beltzner](http://www.beltzner.ca/mike/?ref=chrismessina.me) [points out in the comments](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/10/11/so-mozilla-wants-to-go-mobile-eh/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-96043) that Mitchell has [blogged somewhat candidly about Mozilla's finances](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2007/01/the%5Fmozilla%5Ffoundation%5Fachievi.html?ref=chrismessina.me) at the beginning of the year: In 2005 the Mozilla Foundation and Mozilla Corporation combined had revenue from all sources of $52.9M. $29.8M of this was associated with the Foundation (both before and after the creation of the Corporation). The ***bulk of this revenue was related to our search engine relationships***, with the remainder coming from a combination of contributions, sales from the Mozilla store, interest income, and other sources. (***emphasis added***) --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Mike Beltzner** ¡ 2007-10-11 22:04:02 Hey Chris, some corrections: - the names are "Schrep" and "Jobs", not "Schep" and "Job"; - Mitchell has [talked quite openly about revenue](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2007/01/the%5Fmozilla%5Ffoundation%5Fachievi.html?ref=chrismessina.me)Your comments on mobile and how we can be successful are totally welcome in the fora mentioned on Schrep's blog post, and I bet the people who were brought on recently to help us get there would love to benefit from your wisdom and insight. I'm not being facetious, and am not at all interpreting your comments as being grounded in negativity, even if they're presented in a largely non-constructive fashion. Unabashed criticism is more fun to write (and gets better pickup in the trades :), after all. Still, I look forward to seeing some strong suggestions of what we should be modifying in our strategy in order to make things better for the web (like, your point about XUL is well-founded, and I think that there's a lot of similar talk on planet.mozilla.org at the moment about moving away from XUL in Mozilla2, on which the mobile effort will be based). As for flip-flopping more than John Kerry in a Presidential, I'm not sure, precisely, what makes you think that the community, organization or environment we (and I mean all of us, even you!) exist in is unchanging. The Mozilla community, Foundation and Corporation is growing and evolving on a day by day basis. We do what we can with the resources available, and I'm pretty excited that we've secured dedicated resources for the purposes of working towards a feasible and effective mobile-based Mozilla project. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-11 23:03:51 Thanks for your comment Mike. I think it's fair to ask for more constructiveness, so I'll give that a go in the next couple posts I have lined up. I also made the corrections to the typos you pointed out and softened the Kerry hyperbole. Sometimes I'm too clever for my own good. I also had not seen Mitchell's post -- thank for that. I'll also check in on Planet Moz; I admit I didn't look there before posting. Thanks again for the pointers and reasonable response to my somewhat contained, yet-mildly-self-serving rant. ;) **[A Frog in the Valley » So Mozilla wants to go mobile, eh? | FactoryCity](http://www.afroginthevalley.com/2007/10/12/so-mozilla-wants-to-go-mobile-eh-factorycity.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-12 06:36:17 \[...\] So Mozilla wants to go mobile by Chris Messina\] This entry was written by Sylvain and posted on 2007/10/12 at 09:38 and filed \[...\] ### The future of music, In Rainbows URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-future-of-music-in-rainbows/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:15.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1529284635/?ref=chrismessina.me)If [Radiohead](http://radiohead.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me) wore bras, I'd be burning them along side 'em. Here's to [their independence](http://www.inrainbows.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). And to the future of an Open Media Web. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Ben Saren](http://www.citysquares.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 05:23:55 I second that! NIN is next. **[Being free doesn’t make crap any better | WinExtra](http://www.winextra.com/2007/10/10/being-free-doesnt-make-crap-any-better/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 08:02:53 \[...\] to how people like Chris Messina may think this is the new Open Web Media and all the warm and fuzzy feeling it might imply the truth is that \[...\] **[Biff](http://www.nakedyak.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 08:09:21 Amen to that! It's great that mainstream artists are turning their backs on the labels that refuse to change their ancient business model more than including mp3s in the list of released formats... That, plus I've been looking forward to the new Radiohead album for ages and ages... \~biff\~ **[Julian Schrader](http://julianschrader.de/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 08:16:14 What about PayPal, Radiohead? I don't have a credit card at hand (yet). **[Naked Yak » Blog Archive » It’s Up To You](http://www.nakedyak.com/?p=172&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 08:54:17 \[...\] Chris Messina says, this is the future of music, and the open media web. What Radiohead have done is turn their back \[...\] **[Matt](http://photomatt.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 10:03:56 "If Radiohead wore bras, I’d be burning them along side 'em." Uh... huh? :) **[eBookit Linknotes » Nuovo “Open Web Media” o solo nuovo modo per far soldi?](http://www.ebookit.org/linknotes/nuovo-open-web-media-o-solo-nuovo-modo-per-far-soldi/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-14 11:29:27 \[...\] conversazione tra Chris Messina “The future of music, In Rainbows” + “Modern music economics: a fierce independent streak” e Steven Hodson \[...\] ### Theories about Google's acquisition of Jaiku URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/theories-about-googles-acquisition-of-jaiku/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:14.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1529907666/?ref=chrismessina.me)I think it's pretty interesting news that [Google ended up buying Jaiku](http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/reach-out-and-message-someone.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Can't say I saw it coming, and it's unexpected enough to make things interesting [for a bunch of us](http://www.techmeme.com/071009/p65?ref=chrismessina.me#a071009p65) for whom such actions cause reverberations in our work and also give rise to fair speculation about [why they did it](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/10/jaiku%5Fgoogle%5Ftwitter.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and what it means. So earlier I just so happened to be talking with *Someone Who Shall Remain Unnamed* and he put my mind into circles about this thing. He pointed me to some of [dotBen's](http://benmetcalfe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [ideas](http://twitter.com/dotBen/statuses/323550392?ref=chrismessina.me) [about](http://twitter.com/dotBen/statuses/323380182?ref=chrismessina.me) the acquisition. While I'm not really sure about his geographic assessment (given that my old roommate and coworker [Andy Smith](http://term.ie/?ref=chrismessina.me) [is coming back to San Francisco](http://twitter.com/termie/statuses/323413862?ref=chrismessina.me), which kind of blows the London-relocation theory), I do share his (and others') concern that this acquisition could [spell the demise of Jaiku](http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2007/10/09/did-jaiku-just-become-a-sacrifical-lamb-for-the-gphone/?ref=chrismessina.me) in priority of other more average-Joe services: > Did Google buy Jaiku for it’s engineering talent rather than for the product? I’m betting the engineering team is going to be siphoned off into the GPhone project. At the same time, I think that Google's play will [likely continue to be software](http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,21432315-15321,00.html?ref=chrismessina.me) rather than hardware. Here's why: - Google makes a lot of software, most of it hosted on the web. - Google doesn't make any consumer hardware. - Google wouldn't mind being in the [wireless business](http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/pressrel/20070720%5Fwireless.html?ref=chrismessina.me), but probably not the handset business. - And, Apple already has a bunch of deals with the existing phone carriers. - Apple makes good consumer hardware. Yes, those last two are about Apple. Because [the deal between Google and Apple is sweetening every day](http://gigaom.com/2006/08/29/apple-google/?ref=chrismessina.me). And Apple doesn't really buy companies, Google does. So that's why Google bought Jaiku today and not Apple. But I digress. Let's throw some more theories and extrapolations out there. Ok, first and foremost, the browser. In one of my [many unpublished drafts](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/324421862?ref=chrismessina.me), I talk about how Steve was right about [building Web 2.0 apps for the iPhone](http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/06/11iphone.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and why he's even kind of right [trying to prevent people from building so-called "native apps"](http://drrobevans.com/2007/09/26/apple-ibrick-announcement/?ref=chrismessina.me). Sadly folks don't really think about the web as a "native" environment yet. It's got crappy access to hardware and some pretty weak tools for building rich interfaces so they stick with what they know rather than embracing the rough-and-tumble world of designing and coding for web browsers. What's there to love, *really?* Still, Apple (and moreso Google) already think of the web as their native turf. And where the battle for the future will be waged (which incidentally puts Microsoft at a huge disadvantage, since it's been fighting against the web all along). And the browser is key to this equation, which is why Apple has a world-class (and [getting better daily](http://webkit.org/blog/124/downloadable-fonts/?ref=chrismessina.me)) [open source browser](http://webkit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) that's had an awful lot of attention [paid to its compatibility with Google Apps](http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/search?q=google&changeset=on&ref=chrismessina.me) lately. It's also mobile ready, as demonstrated by how [*insanely well* Safari works on the iPhone](http://www.apple.com/iphone/internet?ref=chrismessina.me) compared to any other mobile browser. I guess to some extent, one can forgive any misgivings Google now has about betting on Firefox, the little engine that could have and should have and then, well, didn't, at least when it came to having a mobile strategy. But I digress. Again. Take a look at the [iPhone's Maps](http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/index.html?ref=chrismessina.me#map) feature. Yes, it's driven by Google, but I didn't have to tell you that. What's missing? Well, besides GPS for yourself, it's missing GPS for your friends and family. Yeah, that *sounds* a little creepy to me too, but don't kid yourself, it's coming. Us early adopters have been geoplotting each other for years now, on sites like Plazes, Jaiku and — oh yeah — before them, on [another Google acquisition](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/10/17/dodgeball-goes-gauth-reveals-googs-masterplan-to-p0wn-your-ass/?ref=chrismessina.me): [*Dodgeball*](http://www.dodgeball.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). I mean, Google's full of tenacity. It's nutty to think that regular people will ever adopt the [nerdy syntax](http://microformats.org/wiki/picoformats?ref=chrismessina.me) that we currently check in to these services with. After all, that's what computers are for. What Google keeps getting closer to with first its acquisition of Dodgeball a year ago and now Jaiku is the *socialization of presence*. That's what it's all about. That's how they'll [increase the relevance of their ads](http://www.loosewireblog.com/2007/10/google-jaiku-it.html?ref=chrismessina.me) *in situ*. That's how they'll improve the quality of their services (like Google Maps). Tim O'Reilly has [for some time](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/03/the%5Fweb%5F20%5Faddr%5F1.html?ref=chrismessina.me) called for the development of the [Web 2.0 Address Book](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/02/social%5Fnetwork%5F1.html?ref=chrismessina.me). I think belying that assertion is the fact that more people need to get in the habit and mindset of maintaining their online selves — thereby making their status — or *presence* — more widely known and available. The Web 2.0 Address Book isn't really about how you connect to someone. It's not really about having their home, work and secret lair addresses. It's not about having access to their 15 different cell phone numbers that change depending on whether they're home, at work, in the car, on a plane, in front of their computer and so on. It's not about knowing the secret handshake and token-based smoke-signal that gains you direct access to send someone a guaranteed email that will bypass their moats of antispam protection. In the real world (outside of Silicon Valley), people want to type in the name of the recipient and hit send and have it reach the destination, in whatever means necessary, and in as appropriate a manner as possible. For this to happen, [recipients need to provide a whole lot more information about themselves](http://www.zengestrom.com/blog/2007/08/opening-up-the-.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and their contexts to the system in order for this whole song and dance to work. If you think far enough into the future, and realize that the iPhone is essentially the Sputnik of next generation of computing and telephony, you'll realize how important the development of presence technology will be [in light of the 2.0 Address Book](http://www.zengestrom.com/blog/2007/09/tim-oreilly-on-.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Sure, the VoIP folks have known about this stuff forever, and CISCO even has a few decent products built on it, but I'm not talking about IP-routed phone calls. I'm talking about IP-routed *people*. Believe it or not, this is where things have to go in order for Google and Apple to continue their relentless drive towards ease-of-use and clarity of design. In the future, you will buy a cellphone-like device. It will have a connection to the internet, no matter what. And it'll probably be [powered over the air](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6725955.stm?ref=chrismessina.me). The device will be tradeable with your friends and will retain no solid-state memory. You literally could pick up a device on a park bench, login with your [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) (IP-routed people, right?) from any number of service providers (though the best ones will be provided by the credit card companies). Your user data will live in the cloud and be delivered in bursts via myriad APIs strung together and then authorized with [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) to accomplish specific tasks as they manifest. If you want to make a phone call, you call up the function on the touch screen and it's all web-based, and looks and behaves natively. Your address book lives in Google-land on some server, and not in the phone. You start typing someone's name and not only does it pull the latest photos of the first five to ten people it matches, but it does so in a distributed fashion, plucking the data from [hcards](http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard?ref=chrismessina.me) [across the web](http://twitter.com/t/statuses/323238582?ref=chrismessina.me), grabbing both the most up-to-date contact information, the person's [hcalendar](http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar?ref=chrismessina.me) availability and their presence. It's basically an IM-style buddy list for presence, and the data never grows old and never goes stale. Instead of just seeing someone's inert photo when you bring up their record in your address book, you see all manner of social and presence data. Hell, you might even get a picture of their current location. This is the lowercase semantic web in action where the people who still hold on to [figments of their privacy](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/24/pry-to/?ref=chrismessina.me) will become increasingly marginalized through obfuscation and increasingly *invisible* to the network. I don't have an answer for this or a moral judgement on it; it's going to happen one way or another. In any case, Apple will make these ultra-slim, literally stupid devices that don't do anything but sport a web browser, a scratch-resistant surface and some RAM (and show off ads really crisply). And these devices that are popular today with 40, 60, 80GB will become our generation's Edsel, when the future music device will be able to access all music from all time on demand, in crystal clear streaming vinyl-quality. Oh, and we'll have solved Network Latency by turning every single device with any kind of antenna into a network repeater. Scratch that, we'll turn every *human* into a repeater. And yeah, we'd have figured out the collision problems that might come with such a network as well. Ok, all nice and fine. It's coming and it's not even that far off so I shouldn't congratulate myself about being too prescient or anything. But I do think that there's a framing here that's being missed in gawking over the acquisition of Jaiku. In the scheme of things, it really [doesn't have anything to do with Twitter](http://mashable.com/2007/10/09/jaiku-google/?ref=chrismessina.me), other than that Twitter is a dumb network that happens to transport simple messages really well in [a format](http://microformats.org/wiki/twitter-syntax?ref=chrismessina.me) *like* [Jaiku's](http://microformats.org/wiki/jaiku-syntax?ref=chrismessina.me) while Jaiku is a mobile service that happens to send dumb messages around to demonstrate what *social presence* on the phone could look like. These services are actually night and day different and it's no wonder that Google bought Jaiku and not Twitter. And hey, it's not a contest either, it's just that Twitter didn't have anything to offer Google in terms of development for their mobile strategy. Twitter is made up of web people and is therefore a content strategy; Jaiku folks do web stuff pretty well, but they also do client stuff pretty well. I mean, Andy used to work at Flock on *a web browser*. [Jyri](http://zengestrom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) used to work at Nokia on devices. Jaiku practically invented the social *presence browser* for the phone (though, I might add, [Facebook snatched up Parakey](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/07/19/breaking-facebook-has-acquired-parakey/?ref=chrismessina.me) out of Google's clenches, denying them of [Joe Hewitt](http://joehewitt.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), who built the [first web-based presence app](http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=5353402130&ref=chrismessina.me) with the [Facebook iPhone app](http://laughingsquid.com/facebook-launches-amazing-new-iphone-app/?ref=chrismessina.me)). If anything, the nearest approximation to Jaiku is [Plazes](http://plazes.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), which actually *does* the location-cum-presense thing *and* has [mobile development experience](http://blog.plazes.com/?p=116&ref=chrismessina.me). That's enough for now. I'll stew on the Google-Apple-iPhone-gPhone-Presence-Jaiku-Dodgeball-Address Book-Maps a little more. But this should give you some fodder to contemplate in the mean time. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Jaiku: All about mobile and presence : NevilleHobson.com](http://www.nevillehobson.com/2007/10/10/jaiku-all-about-mobile-and-presence/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 08:48:38 \[...\] all the media reporting and blog posts I’ve read, Chris Messina has the most intriguing conceptualization: \[…\] In the scheme of things, it really doesn’t have anything to do with Twitter, other \[...\] **[Bits und so #56 (benĂśtigt Firmware-Update) | Bits und so](http://www.bitsundso.de/bus56/132/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 12:30:10 \[...\] Google kauft Jaiku 2 \[...\] **[links for 2007-10-10 | mad dog in the fog](http://www.mdoeff.com/blog/2007/10/10/links-for-2007-10-10/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 12:34:29 \[...\] Theories about Google’s acquisition of Jaiku | FactoryCity “This is the lowercase semantic web in action where the people who still hold on to figments of their privacy will become increasingly marginalized through obfuscation and increasingly invisible to the network.” (tags: google jaiku presence socialnetworking mobilecomputing) \[...\] **[Google, Apple, and Cell Phones « Scotsman on a Horse](http://2thyme.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/google-apple-and-cell-phones/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 12:55:53 \[...\] Theories about Google’s acquisition of Jaiku | FactoryCity If you think far enough into the future, and realize that the iPhone is essentially the Sputnik of next generation of computing and telephony, you’ll realize how important the development of presence technology will be in light of the 2.0 Address Book. Sure, the VoIP folks have known about this stuff forever, and CISCO even has a few decent products built on it, but I’m not talking about IP-routed phone calls. I’m talking about IP-routed people. Believe it or not, this is where things have to go in order for Google and Apple to continue their relentless drive towards ease-of-use and clarity of design. Published in: \[...\] **[Josh Russell](http://www.joshrussell.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 17:37:22 not much to say other than, yup. i can also remember talk from Intel about the personal server. an ipod like device that was screenless, no buttons, no interfaces, but just communicated with all your devices and then acted as a bridge to the internet. very cool idea, perhaps ahead of it's time, perhaps actually soon to be reality with iPhone gen 3 or 4\. except with the screen and stuff. i also happen to agree with steve about web apps on the iphone. it does make sense for average users. no upgrades, you just visit the app as usual. no phone-killing bugs. etc etc.. one thing that strikes me is that hardly any of the iphone reviews i read talk about how well the iphone works as a phone. is that because it-just-works and therefore doesn't even need a mention, or because nobody is using it as a phone :) i'm hoping the jaiku team doesn't just disappear, i like the app. but i'm not sure where it was heading, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. it seemed to have got as far as it was going to. great post, cheers! **[Jaikuland Celebrates As Google Acquires Jaiku.Com](http://www.thegooglemaven.com/jaikuland-celebrates-as-google-acquires-jaikucom/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-11 09:04:49 \[...\] Theories about Google’s acquisition of Jaiku \[...\] **[ALS](http://webcracy.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-11 19:39:59 Hear hear. **[James Governor’s Monkchips » links for 2007-10-12](http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/10/12/links-for-2007-10-12/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-12 15:21:51 \[...\] Theories about Google’s acquisition of Jaiku | FactoryCity this is the real thing. if you want decent analysis its here. (tags: Google Jaiku factoryjoe) \[...\] **[Preoccupations](http://www.preoccupations.org/2007/10/google-and-jaik.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-13 03:50:29 **Google and Jaiku: living the social network...**I found Chris Messina's post, Theories about Google’s acquisition of Jaiku — and two passages really caught my attention: In the future, you will buy a cellphone-like device. It will have a connection to the internet, no matter what. And... **[links for 2007-10-13](http://nowuseit.com/blog/2007/10/13/links-for-2007-10-13/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-13 04:20:07 \[...\] Theories about Google’s acquisition of Jaiku | FactoryCity the deal between Google and Apple is sweetening every day. And Apple doesn’t really buy companies, Google does. So that’s why Google bought Jaiku today and not Apple. (tags: business twitter social socialnetworking future jaiku mobile google) No Comments, Comment or Ping \[...\] **[Claus](http://www.classy.dk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-13 06:27:09 Your post makes it sound as if Dodgeball is still a going Google concern - but the founders left the googleplex, complaining in clear language about completely absent support for their idea within Google. So Dodgeball now has no idea people and probably few to no engineers. **[Julian Harris](http://www.julianonsoftware.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-13 23:28:49 Re: the idea of transparent multichannel communication -- I had a taste of how horribly wrong such 'digital bloodhounds' could be -- I remember a product some years ago back in hometown New Zealand that did 'telepresence' -- called Bloodhound actually -- you would give it email addresses, fax numbers, phone numbers, and it would 'be intelligent' about contacting you. Except if you didn't update your presence, you'd annoy an awful lot of people. The bloodhound was regularly behind, and one evening continued to ring this one guy's parents place ever 5 minutes, all evening, trying to contact him with a voice mail message! Reality will always be slightly faster than the digital version. There's a lot to be said in the ergonomics to, quoting a boss of a long time past -- to make it easier to do right, than to do wrong, so that people don't get in such a tangle. **[vanderwal](http://vanderwal.net/random/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-14 12:34:44 Quite good. The next to last paragraph is off a bit as Jaiku has a dumb network (akin to Twitter as a dumb network) sending dumb messages. But Jaiku has built insanely killer smart tools at the ends of the network. Jaiku has an insanely stable service that has scaled, they have the mobile app, which is a large reason why I bought a Nokia (as well as running real apps on my phone and not having to rely on flaky networks as I travel like the iPhone). Jaiku does some of the best management of management for people listening to lifestreams of other people they care about that is out there. These lifestreams can be delived to the phone (in addition to the dumb network messages mentioned). The web interface for Jaiku is one of the best around for similar tools. But, the killer bit on top of all the solid thinking before they built is the mobile application, which is one of the smartest pieces of digital glue I have run across. It can connect in ways no other services can in near range, if you want to be found. If I had an unlimited data plan in Europe I would have been living in Jaiku the past few weeks. You are right that Twitter and Jaiku are two different beasts. Everything I wish Twitter was, Jaiku is and more. Jaiku is stable, scales, has group directional messaging, and granular social interaction. My biggest fear is Google as they have tended to mangle privacy by ignorance and foolishness. I strongly believe giving up on privacy is for those who do not think we are smart enough to preserve privacy. When Google opened up Dodgeball access to gMail a person who threatened me personally was given access to my location. That was a dumb move on Google part and lack of good thinking about social interactions. I know Jryi understands privacy and respecting personal wishes in applications and I hope he can add those smarts to what Google is building. **[Social Networking: What’s Coming After Facebook « A Canvas for Thought](http://acanvas.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/social-networking-whats-coming-after-facebook/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-14 18:30:25 \[...\] It looks like a few others are thinking in same space. \[...\] **[Marc’s Voice » Blog Archive » Pumpkin time and a week of Conferences](http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2007/10/pumpkin-time-and-a-week-of-conferences?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-15 10:33:19 \[...\] of folks have been talking about Chris Messina’s insights into Google purchasing Jaiku and presence as a battlefield. I agree. How oAuth, hCards, OpenID and other burgeoning standards play into this - I sure as hell \[...\] **[Auf zum Web 2.0 Summit nach San Franciso - eLAB-Blog](http://www.holtzbrinck-elab.de/blog/2007/10/16/auf-zum-web-20-summit-nach-san-franciso/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-15 23:14:51 \[...\] das etwa griffiger um in "The Socialization of Presence" und bezieht sich dabei auch auf Chris Messinas AusfĂźhrungen zur jĂźngsten Jaiku-Akquisition durch Google. Voraussetzung fĂźr folgenden Usecase \[...\] **[Mi otro blog… » Blog Archive » Google adquire el servicio de microblogging Jaiku](http://blogs.eurielec.etsit.upm.es/miotroblog/?p=252&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-16 13:45:51 \[...\] lo largo de la Ăşltima semana se han barajado todo tipo de hipĂłtesis para explicar la adquisiciĂłn de Jaiku, que van desde la necesidad de Google de disponer de mĂĄs ingenieros para desarrollar \[...\] **[Rainbows End and the next social network « Tap](http://thickidea.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/rainbows-end-and-the-next-social-network-2/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-17 11:44:56 \[...\] Then I read this Wired post that describes a similar, probable, scenario. The Wire post linked to Chris Messina’s blog and Tim O’Reilly’s, O’Reilly Radar, and several others, when all of the sudden, \[...\] **[and you wonder why people in america are afraid of the internet – smack|foo](http://www.smackfoo.com/2007/10/and-you-wonder-why-people-in-america-are-afraid-of-the-internet?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-21 23:56:34 \[...\] Card - Orange32Scobleizer - I don't skim ".. there are no “new” privacy issues raised by Google’s acquisition of Jaiku; it’s simply the same old ones over and over again that we seem unable to deal with in any kind \[...\] **[Danny Weitzner - Open Internet Policy » Privacy Lost?](http://people.w3.org/~djweitzner/blog/?p=98&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-23 10:17:11 \[...\] post on the significance of Google’s acquisition of mobile/microblogger Jaiku, Chris Messina writes: The Web 2.0 Address Book isn’t really about how you connect to someone. It’s not really about \[...\] **[Hardcode : Mobile presence](http://hardcode.ro/archive/2007/10/31/mobile-presence.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-31 04:42:59 \[...\] Nice article about Google, Jaiku and the future (via Dragos), Nokia has been doing this for ages (at least 3 years back), too bad it never "took off" - the main reason for that is in my opinion not partnering with carriers to use their Nokia Presence Server.Nokia had also pioneered bluetooth social networking with Nokia Sensor, again a very old application, this also was never successful despite being backed by the famous mobile phone company, this should be a lesson to learn for the followers. \[...\] **[Gfanatic » Blog Archive » Jaikuland Celebrates As Google Acquires Jaiku.Com](http://www.gfanatic.com/jaikuland-celebrates-as-google-acquires-jaikucom/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-05 21:56:32 \[...\] Theories about Google’s acquisition of Jaiku \[...\] **[Ian Kennedy](http://everwas.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-22 22:49:12 Just re-read this post now that I've got more relevant context. I wonder what Jryi is up to these days. I saw him at the Open Stack meeting the other night, hopefully he's working on something cool and non-proprietary. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-12-23 11:47:50 Jyri is working on some interesting things -- turns out he's basically head of "Social" at Google, so he's got his hands in plenty of interesting things. It's funny rereading this post now, a little over a year later. I think I was right on the substance of the thing, but of course in the meantime, Google did get involved in hardware with the G1 (they were making appliance servers at the time) but I was right in that, AFAIC, the G1 kind of sucks (compared to the iPhone). Anyway, I still think that the socialization of presence is where it's at -- and clearly the current activity streams work factors directly into that! ### OAuth Core 1.0 Final Draft is out — now build stuff! URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/oauth-core-10-final-draft-is-out-now-build-stuff/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:13.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1393821245/?ref=chrismessina.me)I should have pushed this post out yesterday and no latter than earlier today, but what are you gunna do, y'know? Anyway, I spent most of the day in [#OAuth](http://oauth.net/community/chat?ref=chrismessina.me) with Eran, [Gabe](http://blog.wachob.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Mark Atwood](http://mark.atwood.name/?ref=chrismessina.me) and others plotting the [release of the news](http://groups.google.com/group/oauth/t/1dc84190d784afe6?ref=chrismessina.me) about our release of [OAuth Core 1.0 Final Draft](http://oauth.net/documentation/spec?ref=chrismessina.me). This news after [three previous](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/09/21/announcing-oauth-10-public-draft-1/?ref=chrismessina.me) [public drafts](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2007/09/oauth-authentic.html?ref=chrismessina.me) culminating the collective effort leveraged over four months of regular meetings, intense discussions and negotiations and constantly reminding ourselves to keep the scope creep to an [absolute minimum](http://oauth.net/about/design-goals?ref=chrismessina.me). We overhauled the website, got the [blog](http://blog.oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) going (with an [official press release](http://blog.oauth.net/2007/10/04/for-immediate-release-oauth-specification-released/?ref=chrismessina.me)!), some [initial tumbles](http://tumble.oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), [added](http://wiki.oauth.net/Advocacy?ref=chrismessina.me) [some](http://wiki.oauth.net/Elsewhere?ref=chrismessina.me) [content](http://wiki.oauth.net/Participants?ref=chrismessina.me) to the [wiki](http://wiki.oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and ended up with an excellent [Getting Started](http://oauth.net/documentation/getting-started?ref=chrismessina.me) guide and an [Introduction](http://oauth.net/about/?ref=chrismessina.me) provided by Eran. All in all, I want to quickly point out the [technologies](http://wiki.oauth.net/Elsewhere?ref=chrismessina.me) that are making this effort possible with just a small group of *admin-advocates*: - [Website](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me): Mephisto - [Blog](http://blog.oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me): hosted WordPress - [Tumblelog](http://tumble.oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me): Tumblr - [Wiki](http://wiki.oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me): PBWiki - [SVN Repo](http://oauth.googlecode.com/svn/?ref=chrismessina.me): Google Code - [Diagrams/Logos Hosting](http://flickr.com/groups/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me): Flickr - [Presentations Group](http://www.slideshare.net/group/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me): Slideshare - [Bookmarks Group](http://ma.gnolia.com/groups/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me): Ma.gnolia - [Chat](https://pibb.com/go/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me): Pibb and Freenode IRC, Diet Pibb - [Mailing](http://groups.google.com/group/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me) [list](http://groups.google.com/group/oauth-extensions?ref=chrismessina.me)(s): Google Groups - [Forums](http://getsatisfaction.com/oauth?ref=chrismessina.me): Get Satisfaction - Document collaboration: Google Docs, Google Code/SVN - Logo design: Basecamp - Promotions: Twitter, Blogs - Events: Upcoming, Facebook - Ego tracking: Twitter Tracking, Technorati, Google Blog Search Without this technology and how far collaborative technology has come in just two years, it wouldn't be possible for us to be moving as fast as we are and making as much progress as we have been, consistently, with as few person-hours as we have at our disposal. ### Next steps Of course, even with this Final Draft out, we're only getting started. There are a number of things that still need to be done, and these are a few off the top of my head (I'm maintaining my [personal list here](http://factoryjoe.pbwiki.com/ToDo?ref=chrismessina.me#OAuth) if you want to help out): - **Get the logo figured out.** I've pinged like five guys about this. Why y'all gots ta be so busy! If you have an idea, please [post it to the Flickr group](http://www.flickr.com/groups/oauth/pool/?ref=chrismessina.me). I'm patient on this one though. - **Implement support for OAuth!** If you can, replace your proprietary [API access delegation protocol](http://blog.programmableweb.com/2007/10/05/oauth-spec-10-more-personal-mashups/?ref=chrismessina.me) with OAuth. If you don't code (like me!) add software that you think could benefit from OAuth to the [Advocacy page](http://wiki.oauth.net/Advocacy?ref=chrismessina.me). - **Help improve the libraries.** A bunch of folks have worked on the first [open source implementations](http://oauth.net/code/?ref=chrismessina.me) of OAuth but we need more testers, more implementors and more folks to get code running in the wild. - **Spread the word!** This is a grassroots-lead effort and if it's going to be successful, has to spread from the bottom up. Early reviews suggest that the spec is [clear and easy to implement](http://nearlyfree.org/oauth-perl?ref=chrismessina.me). If you can promote this open protocol within your organization and get it adopted, please do...! And then blog it and point me to it so I can [tumbleblog it](http://tumble.oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)! I'm sure there's more that needs to be done, but this is what I got now (yes [Gabe](http://blog.wachob.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), we still have to deal with IPR... I'm on it!). ### Making history visible as it happens I'd like to close by making a point of process explicit for the benefit of those just tuning in. Two defining aspects of successful community efforts with which I've been involved are 1) the ability of an enthusiast to tell a story about why some idea or technology is personally meaningful to her 2) and a large body of collected wisdom, notes, drafts, paper trails, ideas, struggles and all the things that went into the final product. Math teachers force you to show your work for a reason: it's oftentimes not the answer that's interesting, it's how you got there. So, I'm making explicit my intention to be as transparent, straight-forward and forthcoming about my experiences helping to usher OAuth forward. I've not really done this kind of thing before, but being surrounded by brilliant and talented people seems to bring out the best in me. That and I've [watched what's happened in the OpenID community](http://kveton.com/blog/2007/10/04/oauth-goes-final-here-comes-the-open-web/?ref=chrismessina.me) for over a year now and, for what it's worth, I want to avoid getting dragged down into endless loops and debilitating scope creep. In fact I've not been involved with the OpenID community for months because of this kind of stuff and I want to expressly make an effort to document openly the approach we take with OAuth to see if we can't avoid the same fate. Cheers and congrats to all the folks who helped to make this happen. It might be a relatively minor step in terms the development of *new* technology today, but looking out long enough into the horizon, I think we're adding a significantly important piece of puzzle that's been missing for some time. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Paul Stamatiou](http://paulstamatiou.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-05 00:06:12 Congrats on the work and final draft. I'm always amazed by your work Chris and especially with collaborating with other great minds for OAuth. Hoping to see it widely adopted. **[John Allsopp](http://microformatique.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-05 02:05:00 Wow, amazing work. congrats to you all. Time to digest and blog it john **[Maxivida](http://www.gabbr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-05 06:19:41 Congratulation on the release! Many great days are ahead for all of your hard work! **[OAuth Core 1.0 Final Draft at notizBlog - a private weblog written by Matthias Pfefferle](http://notizblog.org/2007/10/05/oauth-core-10-final-draft/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-05 07:56:04 \[...\] Chris Messina yigg itweb it wong it folk it link it bookmark \[...\] **[Pascal Van Hecke - Daily Links » 2007 » October » 05](http://links.vanhecke.info/2007/10/05/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-05 16:45:58 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť OAuth Core 1.0 Final Draft is out — now build stuff! Writeup of the process; collaboration and tracking tools the OAuth advocates used (tags: oauth chrismessina community collaboration groupware proces projectmanagement) \[...\] **[TerrellRussell](http://terrellrussell.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-05 22:12:16 Excellent work, Chris. Congratulations. One day we'll get you to write some code... **[Eric Skiff](http://glitchnyc.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-07 00:18:59 I've been reading through both your introductory piece and the spec today and it looks great. I'm really hoping that we'll be able to implement this soon at clipmarks to provide access to clips via 3rd party apps without having to log in every time or piggyback on top of an existing browser session. The problem of accessing resources from a site without giving your full login info away is one that every API and mash-up developer will face, and I have a feeling people will descend on this idea and start implementing it in droves once they realize how powerful it is. Great, great work. Thank you. **[Another blog bites the dust » Blog Archive » OAuth Core 1.0 Final Draft - Implement it while it’s hot](http://eran.sandler.co.il/2007/10/07/oauth-core-10-final-draft-implement-it-while-its-hot/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-07 02:51:04 \[...\] Chris blogged about it Eran Hammer-Lahav wrote a Beginner’s Guide to OAuth I have little to \[...\] **[Future Of Web Apps: Day 2 In Detail :: Unintentionally Blank](http://www.unintentionallyblank.co.uk/2007/10/09/future-of-web-apps-day-2-in-detail/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-08 15:23:51 \[...\] so insecure and there should be better ways of exchanging data. Thankfully, that day the oAuth 1.0 final draft was released. This is an open service that will be give users access to their data on a service without handing \[...\] **[Labnotes » Rounded Corners - 160 (Resourced)](http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/10/09/rounded-corners-160-resourced/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-09 08:03:54 \[...\] OAuth 1.0 final draft (that was \[...\] **[claimID weblog - Manage your online identity. » Archive » OAuth spec and a shiny new OpenID.net](http://blog.claimid.com/2007/10/oauth-spec-and-a-shiny-new-openidnet/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-10 10:42:51 \[...\] always, our friend Chris Messina is all over it: Cheers and congrats to all the folks who helped to make this happen. It might be a relatively \[...\] **[stuart henshall » links for 2007-10-16](http://www.henshall.com/stuart/2007/10/16/links-for-2007-10-16/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-16 00:37:07 \[...\] OAuth Core 1.0 Final Draft is out — now build stuff! OAuth Core 1.0 Final Draft is out — now build stuff! OAuth (tags: oauth socialweb collaboration ChrisMessina privacy) \[...\] **[web40.info | A Web 4.0 Story » Blog Archive » Web 4.0 companies spread out their secrets](http://web40.info/2008/07/16/web-40-companies-spread-out-their-secrets/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-16 00:55:38 \[...\] Link | OAuth Core 1.0 Final Draft is out — now build stuff! | FactoryCity \[...\] **[jennifer crakow » Blog Archive » links for 2008-01-18](http://jcrakow.com/2008/01/18/links-for-2008-01-18/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-07 12:29:25 \[...\] OAuth Core 1.0 Final Draft is out \[...\] ### Flywheels and spinning plates URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/flywheels-and-spinning-plates/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:13.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightandimages/1178448023/?ref=chrismessina.me)Photo by [Mike Sweeney](http://lightandimages.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and shared under [Creative Commons license](http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.0/deed.en-us?ref=chrismessina.me).Interesting conversation tonight with [Greg Wolff](http://www.crc.ricoh.com/~wolff/?ref=chrismessina.me) and his wife about capturing social capital as a dynamic kind of "currency". I didn't follow the discussion in its entirely, but going off on my own tangent, I did come up with a rather interesting framing of the idea... at least insomuch as it relates to the gift economy and participation in open source communities. The example given had to do with choosing, let's say, an ice cream store to shop at. Everything being equal save the size of the crowd gathered outside, the very size of the crowd (or *social capital* as defined by the amount of accrued activity) could well determine which shop you'd buy your ice cream from. Essentially, the premise is that in numbers lies preference, wisdom or the promise of something better. Applying this to open source projects and open source communities, it does seem to be true that the amount of momentum or potential attention such projects or communities can generate determines its attractiveness or recruiting-slash-staying power (obviously quality, opportunity and interestingness also play a role among other things). [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/theremina/1339088202/?ref=chrismessina.me)What's interesting about this observation is that it can be modeled by imagining, first, a vast number of simultaneously spinning plates, representing all active open source projects. When someone sees a "plate" faltering, there is an opening to get involved and to contribute productively, keeping the plate "spinning". Should there be a lack of interest or a lack of talent over time, that "plate" (or project) will fall (essentially going dormant). Now, fortunately, the value and progress made on that project has not been lost, since, as it is open source, anyone can come along later and start up the plate spinning again. An important principle in play here is the "conservation of attention" within a system run on social capital. Knowledge-based systems are infinite; what is limited is attention spread across knowledge-amassing projects. In thinking of open source projects as spinning plates, they require attention in order to keep "going" or producing more knowledge. The second part of this observation is that, similar to the plate metaphor, successful open source projects operate like flywheels, spinning faster and faster in perpetuity the more that people join up and contribute. However, this only works to a certain degree. If an open source project builds a community of active contributors and "gets the flywheel going" but then is unable to build infrastructure to harness the additional marginal effort that is contributed as social capital, eventually the excess social capital will dissipate and spread to other spinning plates (or open source projects). The result is something of a self-correcting equilibrium state where projects will continue to grow and flourish so long as they are able to sufficiently spend the capital that is being amassed. This is a reflection of the self-healing, decentralized aspects of open source projects, where if they can not build large enough "buckets" to contain the magnitude of contributions directed their way, they will grow temporally only to revert back to a smaller and more manageable size. In other words, if a project needs me for something and acknowledges and shows appreciate for my work in the context and view of other contributors, I'll be happy to contribute more (to continue helping to spin the flywheel). If instead, I give my "gifts" of work to a project and they ignore, reject or otherwise devalue or fail to acknowledge what I've contributed, I will likely abandon the project and seek a more receptive audience elsewhere, that will compensate me with social capital in exchange for the work that I am willing to do — monetarily speaking — for *free*. My contributions should be valued in direct relation to the degree that I am able to help "spin the flywheel". And insomuch as the project is one that others are willing to work on, there is a derivation of social capital that comes predominantly from the shared experience of working together with peers. Thus I am able to produce more "wealth" (in terms of social capital) for myself and for others by giving away my work freely and by working on projects in which many others are willing to do the same. In this we find one of the motivating factors for working in open source and reveal how people come to decide on which project(s) to contribute to: namely, the degree to which one can *earn and spend social capital*, both individually and collectively. The degree to which one derives personal satisfaction from the outcome of this exchange will in turn determine the longevity and ongoing success of a project. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[CodeCorps](http://codecorps.wordpress.com/2007/09/29/on-the-merits-of-plate-spinning/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-29 03:33:26 **On the merits of plate-spinning...**Chris Messina posted his framing of open source via the metaphor of spinning plates. In a nutshell, volunteer efforts help keep the plates spinning. How well a project can leverage their help (to actually spin the plates) and reward that help will dete... **[SlashChick](http://www.slashchick.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-29 10:59:05 Somewhere in there is the reason why women don't participate in open-source projects at nearly the rate of men... **[Maxivida](http://www.gabbr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-04 12:18:17 No blog entry on the recent release of oAuth? I am embarrassed for you! Get blogging about it. The oAuth site is pretty sparse.. can you get some peeps to post tutorials/articles on implementation and usability of the spec include real life applications using oAuth? ### Putting people into the protocol URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/putting-people-into-the-protocol/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:12.000Z I really don't like the phrase "[user-centric identity](http://identity20.com/?p=61&ref=chrismessina.me)" and as I struggled to name this post, I came upon [Pete Rowley's](http://www.openrowley.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) 2006 phrase [the people are in the protocol](http://www.openrowley.com/2006/06/17/people-in-the-protocol/?ref=chrismessina.me). This isn't much different from what I used to call "[people in the browser](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72057594068514811/detail/?ref=chrismessina.me)" when I was at [Flock](http://flock.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), so I'll use it. Anyway, as part of another post I'm working on, it seemed useful to call out what I see as the benefits to services that "put people into the protocol" or, more aptly, those services that are designed around people who tend to use more than one web service and a single identifier (like an OpenID) to represent themselves across services. Here's [what I've come up](http://factoryjoe.pbwiki.com/UserBenefitsOfUserCentricDesign?ref=chrismessina.me) with so far: - **I am me, wherever I go.** I may have multiple personas, facets or identities that I use online, but fundamentally, I can manage them more effectively because services are oriented *around me* and not around the services that I use (it would be like logging into a new user account every time you want to switch applications!). - **I have access to my stuff, wherever I am.** Even though I use lots of different web services, just like I use lots of desktop applications, I can always access my data, no matter where I created it or where it's stored. And if I want to get all of my data out of a service into another one, I should be able to do so. - **My friends come with me**, but continue to use only the services that they chose to. If I can send email from any domain *to* any domain, why can't I join one network and then add friends from any other network? - **I am the master of my domain.** Both literally and figuratively, I should be able to choose any identity provider to manage all my external connections to the world, including running my own, from my own domain. While remote service providers can certainly set the standards for who they allow access to their APIs, this should be done in a clear and transparent way, so that even people who host their own identity can have fair access. There may of course be other benefits that I'm forgetting or omitting, but I think I've covered some of the primary ones, at least so that I continue with my other post! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Patrick Rhone](http://patrickrhone.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-23 19:40:18 Do you think the 1.0 version of Flock that previewed at TechCrunch will go a ways towards helping this sort of thing? The way they talked about being able to share media between certain services was compelling. I would be interested to hear your thought on this in light of this post. Looking forward to that next post. **[Colin](http://thebankwatch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-24 07:07:58 Thinking about VRM ... is there a 5th principle around: 'I will advertise myself to merchants on my terms, if and when I see fit, and they will speak to me on my terms and if and when asked by me' **[John Dunham](http://http//jdunham.net?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-04 07:30:44 Fascinating analysis. I'm an "old" guy who plans to bring open source to bear on agile development testing. Your model explains observed behavior wonderfully and gives excellent hints. Thank you. **[Luis Villa’s Blog / some free/open services links](http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/10/07/some-freeopen-services-links/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-07 13:29:03 \[...\] Messina has some initial thinking about identity and protocol. Traditional open source software gives the user-customer control of their own data, including \[...\] **[Good news: the user is back, and he won’t be ignored this time! « Alexander van Elsas’s Weblog on new media & technologies and their effect on social behavior](http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/good-news-the-user-is-back-and-he-wont-be-ignored-this-time/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-01 07:43:33 \[...\] while you are at it read his original post “People in the protocol” as well. Chris used to work at Flock. No wonder he is able to come up with such a list. Only few \[...\] **[If We Upvote Everything, We’re a Dumb Pipe](http://www.victusspiritus.com/2009/10/30/if-we-upvote-everything-were-a-dumb-pipe/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-10-30 05:47:42 \[...\] they visit. Related to user ability to customize their social space is a post by Chris Messina Putting people in the protocol (just discovered Chris and highly recommend his blog/business to readers). A protocol with \[...\] ### Announcing OAuth 1.0 Public Draft 1 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/announcing-oauth-10-public-draft-1/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:11.000Z Well, it's been a long time coming, and if you've been following [my Twitters](http://explore.twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/252270052?ref=chrismessina.me) at all, you'll know that I've been working on an [open](http://code.google.com/p/oauth/?ref=chrismessina.me), [community-driven](http://groups.google.com/group/oauth/?ref=chrismessina.me) authorization protocol called [OAuth](http://oauth.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) for the past few months. Today we [released](http://fallenpegasus.livejournal.com/636578.html?ref=chrismessina.me) the [first Public Draft](http://oauth.net/documentation/spec?ref=chrismessina.me) for review. The idea started as a humble effort to accomplish two goals: first, to enable [Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) members who created their accounts with OpenIDs (and therefore don't have traditional usernames and passwords) to be able to use Dashboard Widgets; and second, to enable [Twitter](http://twitter.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) to adopt OpenID when its current [API](http://twitter.com/help/api?ref=chrismessina.me) requires a username and password to authorize access to protected status feeds. In any case, both of these use cases were part of the same problem: the lack of a uniform and open protocol for what's called "delegated authentication". Another useful metaphor that I've come to like is what [John Panzer](http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer/entries/2007/09/21/oauth-your-valet-key-for-the-web/1550?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Eran Hammer-Lahav](http://www.hueniverse.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [used before him](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2007/09/explaining-oaut.html?ref=chrismessina.me), that of a valet key: > OAuth is like a valet key for all your web services. A valet key lets you give a valet the ability to park your car, but not the ability to get into the trunk or drive more than 2 miles or limit the RPMs on your high end German automobile. In the same way, an OAuth key lets you give a web agent the ability to check your web mail but NOT the ability to pretend to be you and send mail to everybody in your address book. Arguably the value of OAuth as a technological innovation goes beyond that. After all, anyone can implement their own valet key system that works in their own universe of vehicles. The harder part is actually the social and political work of getting everyone to buy in and follow the same design pattern, leading to interoperability between systems. In fact that's where we were before OAuth: Google had [AuthSub](http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/authsub.html?ref=chrismessina.me), AOL had [OpenAuth](http://dev.aol.com/openauth?ref=chrismessina.me) (OAuth's former name, by the way), Yahoo had [BBAuth](http://developer.yahoo.com/auth/?ref=chrismessina.me) and Flickr had [FlickrAuth](http://www.flickr.com/services/api/auth.howto.web.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (not to mention [Facebook Auth](http://developers.facebook.com/documentation.php?doc=auth&ref=chrismessina.me) and [Windows Live ID Web Authentication](http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb676633.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)). Which meant that if you were an independent developer (like [Matt Biddulph](http://www.hackdiary.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) from [Dopplr](http://dopplr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) you had to pick which auth system you wanted to support unless you had money and time coming out of your armpits, you'd code against all of them. Of course, that's not reality. And no one has the time or energy to maintain support for every protocol, so instead, most people take the easy way out and just ask for the veritable keys to all the different services you use: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1345315346/?ref=chrismessina.me)Now, don't get me wrong, this gets the job done. And it works. But it's a *really really *really** bad idea. Not only are people being trained into thinking that it's okay to fill in any form that looks like a Gmail login box on any old website (trusted or not) but it's creating an untenable situation where, as a member of these various services, you have no way to control the access you've given away without changes your password -- which in effect will disable *every* one of these sites that's storing your credentials -- forcing you to revisit *every one* of them and share with them your *new* username and password. What a crappy experience! Fortunately, Flickr got it right a long time ago and set the bar for user experience. In their model, you can try out a bunch of tools that help you upload photos to the service or use off-site mashups that do cool things with your photos all without giving away your most valuable credentials: your username and password! Instead, when you sign in to your account, Flickr will assign special keys called "tokens" to [each application](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/819731277/in/photostream/?ref=chrismessina.me) that wants to [access your account](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1326986594/in/photostream/?ref=chrismessina.me). Flickr then lets you configure [how much access](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/819737641/in/photostream/?ref=chrismessina.me) you want to grant to each app and lets you [revoke that access](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1325991899/?ref=chrismessina.me) at [any time](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1325961811/in/photostream/?ref=chrismessina.me). No changing your password, no running around to have to re-authenticate all the apps that you still want to use if you want to disable one of them. OAuth takes that approach one step further and [extracts the best practices](http://oauth.net/about/design-goals?ref=chrismessina.me) from the popular authentication systems I mentioned above and turns it into one [elegant, unified authentication protocol](http://oauth.net/documentation/spec?ref=chrismessina.me) that anyone can implement. And, because it's an open standard that we hope many people will adopt and replace their own proprietary authentication systems with, it should be a no-brainer for developers to use and to support, resulting in fewer sites that, with a straight face, continue to ask you for your username and password (oh, and yes, it is [compatible with OpenID](http://eran.sandler.co.il/2007/09/22/oauth-10-public-draft-another-brick-in-the-wall/?ref=chrismessina.me), with Google Accounts, with Yahoo Accounts and any other sign-in system -- OAuth doesn't dictate *how* you sign-in, only how you delegate authentication). Even though we're only [releasing the first public draft today](http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2007/09/oauth-10-public.html?ref=chrismessina.me), we already have pledges from Ma.gnolia, Twitter, Pownce, Jaiku, Dopplr and others that they intend to implement the protocol. If you want to get involved, [join our mailing list](http://groups.google.com/group/oauth/subscribe?ref=chrismessina.me), take a look at the [OAuth libraries](http://oauth.net/code?ref=chrismessina.me) under development for PHP, Ruby, Python, C# and others. We plan to formally release the final version the [OAuth Protocol v1.0](http://oauth.net/documentation/spec?ref=chrismessina.me) on Oct 1, so watch this space for more news until then. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Nate Westheimer](http://innonate.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-22 06:41:29 Congrats. I really appreciate the significance of this. From a developer's standpoint, we need a way of simplifying the silo field around us. With an easy way to uniformly "get in the barn" and "count the animals" (a rural play on your metaphors above), some fantastic development hurdles will be overcome. When the time comes. You can count on [BricaBox](http://bricabox.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) joining that list of OAuth pledges. **[Pascal Van Hecke - Daily Links » 2007 » September » 22](http://links.vanhecke.info/2007/09/22/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-22 16:34:53 \[...\] Announcing OAuth 1.0 Public Draft 1 Introduction to and rationale behind OAuth - writeup by Chris Messina. (tags: oauth authentication standards protocol chrismessina) \[...\] **[links for 2007-09-23](http://xiled.rss-central.net/blog/2007/09/22/links-for-2007-09-23/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-22 20:20:02 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť Announcing OAuth 1.0 Public Draft 1 Even though we’re only releasing the first public draft today, we already have pledges from Ma.gnolia, Twitter, Pownce, Jaiku, Dopplr and others that they intend to implement the protocol. (tags: OAuth social\_networking socialsoftware socialnetworking socialgraph toblog) \[...\] **[Labnotes » Rounded Corners - 152 (Rails heavy)](http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/09/23/rounded-corners-152-rails-heavy/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-23 01:06:56 \[...\] away. First draft of OAuth 1.0 is out, Chris Messina explains what it’s all about: OAuth takes that approach one step further and extracts the best practices from the popular \[...\] **[Open Social Web Now: #2 at Like It Matters](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/09/23/open-social-web-now-2/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-23 05:07:21 \[...\] of all this week? The first public release of the 1.0 version of the OAuth spec. Read what Chris, & Mark, panzerjohn, Eran, Eran S., Dick and others have to say about \[...\] **[Sean Savage](http://cheesebikini.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-23 22:41:50 Yes! Great idea and framing. **[links for 2007-09-24](http://innonate.com/2007/09/24/links-for-2007-09-24/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-24 02:25:05 \[...\] Announcing OAuth 1.0 Public Draft 1 OAuth is like a valet key for all your web services. A valet key lets you give a valet the ability to park your car, but not the ability to get into the trunk or drive more than 2 miles or limit the RPMs on your high end German automobile. (tags: openid oauth api protocol openstandards) \[...\] **[I never knew » Blog Archive » Bunch of Links](http://i.never.nu/bunch-of-links/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-26 11:03:25 \[...\] announced OAuth 1.0 Public Draft basically a way for developers to duplicate Flickr’s FlickrAuth but with an industry wide \[...\] **[oAuth Brings Open Authentication | iface thoughts](http://ifacethoughts.net/2007/09/29/oauth-brings-open-authentication/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-28 11:37:16 \[...\] we are about to see something that will assist this - oAuth. In fact, Chris Messina explains that oAuth was created out of necessity to use OpenID. He also announced that the public drafts of 1.0 spec are now \[...\] **[OAuth Spec 1.0 = More Personal Mashups?](http://blog.programmableweb.com/2007/10/05/oauth-spec-10-more-personal-mashups/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-04 21:26:54 \[...\] For more coverage see Marshall Kirkpatrick at Read/WriteWeb, Brady Forrest at O’Reilly Radar, Microsoft’s Dare Obasanjo, and Chris Messina. \[...\] **[Lightweight access PINs: a modest proposal for enabling OpenID in desktop and mobile apps | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/10/30/lightweight-access-pins-a-modest-proposal-for-enabling-openid-in-desktop-and-mobile-apps/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-30 21:25:48 \[...\] there is a solution, and it was developed specifically because Ma.gnolia ran into this problem when it became an OpenID relying party. The result, nine \[...\] **[Twitter and the Password Anti-Pattern | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/01/02/twitter-and-the-password-anti-pattern/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-03 20:24:56 \[...\] is actually an extraction of a number of protocols that came before. In the place of a username and password, it substitutes a consumer key (like a username for an \[...\] ### Stop building social networks URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/stop-building-social-networks/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:10.000Z I started writing this post August 8th. Now that Dave Recordon is at Six Apart and [blogging about these things](http://www.sixapart.com/about/news/2007/09/were%5Fopening%5Fth.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and Brad Fitzpatrick has moved on to Google, I thought I should finally finish this post. I fortuitously ran into Tim O'Reilly, [Brad Fitzpatrick and Dave Recordon](http://valleywag.com/tech/social-networks/six-aparts-brad-boy-is-googling-a-new-idea-287523.php?ref=chrismessina.me) in [Philz](http://philzcoffee.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) yesterday as I was grabbing a cup of coffee. They were talking about some pretty heady ideas and strategies towards [wrenching free](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/08/opening%5Fup%5Fthe.html?ref=chrismessina.me) one's friends networks from the multiple social networks out there — and recombining them in such a way that it'd be very hard to launch a closed down social network again. The idea isn't new. It's certainly been attempted numerous times, with few successful efforts to show for it to date. I think that Brad and Dave might be [on to something](http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2007/08/brad-fitzpatric.html?ref=chrismessina.me) with [their approach](http://bradfitz.com/social-graph-problem/?ref=chrismessina.me), though, but it begs an important question: *once you've got a portable social network, what do you do with it?* Fortunately, [Brian Oberkirch](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) has been doing a lot of [thinking](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/08/03/deeelightful-insanely-great-services-enabled-by-portable-social-networks/?ref=chrismessina.me) on this subject lately with his series on [Portable Social Networks](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/category/portablesocialnetworks/?ref=chrismessina.me), starting with a post on [designing portable social networks](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/08/02/designing-portable-social-networks/?ref=chrismessina.me) lead up to his most recent post offering some [great tips on how to prepare your site](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/08/08/building-blocks-for-portable-social-networks/?ref=chrismessina.me) for the day when your users come knocking for a list of their friends to populate their new favor hang. In his kick-off post, Brian laid the problem of social network fatigue as stemming from the: > Creation of yet another login/password to manageNeed to re-enter profile information for new servicesNeed to search and re-add network contacts at each new serviceNeed to reset notification and privacy preferences for each new serviceInability to manage and add value to these networks from a central app/work flow I think these are the fundamental drivers behind the current surge of progress in user-centric identity services, as opposed to the aging trend of network-centric web services. If Eric Schmidt thinks that [Web 3.0 will be made up of small pieces loosely joined and "in the cloud"](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/eric%5Fschmidt%5Fdefines%5Fweb%5F30.php?ref=chrismessina.me), my belief, going back to my time with [Flock](http://flock.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), is that having consistent identifiers for the same person across multiple networks, services or applications is going to be fundamental to getting the next evolution of the web right. Tim made the point during our discussion that at one point in computing history, SQL databases embedded access permissions in the database itself. In modern times, access controls have been decoupled from the data and are managed, maintained and federated without regard to the data itself, affording a host of new functionality and stability simply by adjusting the architecture of the system. If we decouple people and their identifiers from the networks that currently define them, we start moving towards greater granularity of privacy control through mechanisms like global [social whitelists](http://simonwillison.net/2007/Jan/22/whitelisting/?ref=chrismessina.me) and buddy list blocklists. It also means that individuals can solicit services to be built that serve their unique social graph across any sites and domains (kind of like a fingerprint of your relationship connections), rather than being restrained to the limited freedom in locked down networks like Facebook. And ultimately, it enables cross-sharing content and media with anyone whom you choose, regardless of the network that they're on (just like email today, where you can send someone on Yahoo.com email from Gmail.com or even Hotmail.com, and so on, but with finer contact controls). The result is that the crosscut of one's social network could be as complete (or discreet) as one chose, and that rather than managing it in a social network-centric way, you'd manage it centrally, just as you do your IM buddy list, and it would follow you around on any site that you visit. So it's become something of a refrain in the advice that [we've](http://citizenagency.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) been giving out lately to our clients that they should think very critically about what social functionality they should (and shouldn't) build directly into their sites. Rather than assuming that they should "build what Flickr has" or think about which features of Facebook they should absorb, the better question, I think, is to assume that in the next 6-8 months (for the early adopters at least) there's going to be a shift to these portable networks. Where the basics will mostly be better covered by existing solutions and will not need to be rebuilt. Where each new site -- especially those with specific functionality like [TripIt](http://tripit.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)(*disclosure*: we've consulted TripIt)-- will need to focus less on building out its own social network and more on how *social functionality* can support their core competency. We're still in the early stages of recognizing and identifying the components of this problem. Thus far, the Microformats wiki [says](http://microformats.org/wiki/portable-social-networks?ref=chrismessina.me#The%5FProblem): > Why is it that every single social network community site makes you:re-enter all your personal profile info (name, email, birthday, URL etc.)?re-add all your friends? > > In addition, why do you have to:re-turn off notifications?re-specify privacy preferences?re-block [negative people](http://headrush.typepad.com/creating%5Fpassionate%5Fusers/2006/04/angrynegative%5Fp.html?ref=chrismessina.me)? > > AKA "social network fatigue problem" and "social network update/maintenance problem". I've yet to be convinced that this is a problem that the "rest of the world" beyond social geeks is suffering, but I do think that the situation can be greatly improved, even for folks who are [used to abandoning their profiles when they forget their passwords](http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2007/01/01/ephemeral%5Fprofi.html?ref=chrismessina.me). For one thing, the world today is too network-centric, and not person-centric. While I do think people should be able to take on multiple personas online (professional, casual, hobby, family, and so on), I don't think that that means that they should have those boundaries set for them by the networks they join. Instead, they should maintain their multiple personas as separate *identifiers*: email addresses, IM addresses and/or profile URLs (i.e. OpenIDs). This allows for handy separation based on the way people already *materialize* themselves online. Projects like [NoseRub](http://noserub.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and even the smaller additions of offsite-identifiers on sites like [Digg](http://blog.digg.com/?p=94&ref=chrismessina.me), Twitter and [Pownce](http://blog.pownce.com/2007/09/06/pownce-xfn/?ref=chrismessina.me) also acknowledge that members think of themselves as being more faceted than a single URL indicates. This is a good thing. And this is where social computing needs to go. We need to stop building independent spider webs of sticky siloed social activity. We need to stop fighting the nature of the web and embrace the design of uniform resource identifiers for people. We need to have a user agent that actually understands what it means to be a person online. A person with friends, with contacts, with enemies, with multiple personas and surfaces and ambitions and these user agents of the social web need to understand that, though we live in many distinct places on the web and interact with many different services, that we as people still have one unified viewport through which we understand the world. Until social networks understand this reality and start to adapt to it, the problem that [Dave is describing](http://www.sixapart.com/about/news/2007/09/were%5Fopening%5Fth.html?ref=chrismessina.me) is only going to continue to get worse for more and more people until truly, the problem of social network fatigue will spread beyond social geeks and start cutting into the bottom lines of companies that rely on the regularity of "sticky eyeballs" showing up. While I will always and continue to bet on the open web, we're reaching an inflection point where some fundamental conceptions of the web (and social networks) need to change. Fortunately, if us geeks have our way, it'll probably be for the general betterment of the whole thing. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Howard Greenstein](http://www.howardgreenstein.com/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-21 06:17:28 Chris: Great post, and well thought through. I agree with you for the social network early adopters this is becoming a problem. But what of the B2B type networks I'm now seeing customers asking for. It is unlikely that someone joining a company network or one for a specific industry wants to pull their Facebook profile to populate their specific-function work forum and connection place. Or, a I missing something? **[Enough with the social crap I think I’m gonna puke | WinExtra](http://www.winextra.com/2007/09/21/enough-with-the-social-crap-i-think-im-gonna-puke/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-21 06:58:26 \[...\] While Chris Messina may think that the fatigue effect hasn’t spread beyond the social geeks I would suggest that the word social is very quickly becoming one of the most used and misused words on the internet to the point people are starting to gag when they read or hear it. After all it is nothing more than a term of convenience because anyone who thinks that the act of sitting behind a keyboard and monitor to communicate with other people is being social needs a head check. \[...\] **[Ryan Parman](http://ryanparman.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-21 09:10:30 I've been thinking about this a lot lately as well. There's nothing more frustrating than having to sign up for new services, re-add friends (maybe they'll join too, maybe not), and since most social networks thrive on people being able to do social stuff, you'd think it'd be in their best interests to assist that. One example is Twitter, Jaiku, and Pownce. I have accounts on all three, but I only use Twitter. Why? Because that's where all of my friends are, and there's not enough difference between the three services to make me move from one to the other. On the flip side, if I DID want to maintain all three, I'm not going to post what I'm doing to three services -- I should be able to do it once, and have all of my friends on all three services get the updates. Web 2.0 enables stuff like this, but the '3.0' (as you put it) will be, IMO, the realization of it. I have some ideas on how to approach something like this in a very get-it-functional sort of way, but a project like this would need (1) backing by influential people, and (2) the resources to pull it off. Maybe we can talk further about this some other time? **[Wayne Smallman](http://www.blahblahtech.com/2007/07/openid-to-pave?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-21 11:02:25 It's odd to read about Tim O’Reilly being involved in an idea that's so prosaic. He's coming at the problem from completely the wrong angle. What they're proposing is like making the roads out of rubber and the wheels out of stone or bitumen, all to save on tyre ware. However, I am at least relieved to read that there are others out their thinking about Social Network Fatigue as a genuine — and, ultimately solvable — problem. Yes, we need to move away from the many-islands-of-data concept, but do we embrace centralization instead? For me, OpenID is very close to the solution, but maybe we're in need of the Semantic Web, which would then allow for 'roaming rights', maybe something like DNS, but for portable personal profiles. I've got an article lined up which will come in at the issue of Web3.0 (a lamentable iteration to a tiresome buzzword if ever there was) from a different point of view, but also similar in scope and complimentary to what's been outlined here. All of which is encouraging stuff... **[Aaron Mentele](http://charisma18.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-21 13:30:54 Excellent post. Glad to hear we aren't the only ones directing client focus toward core functionality and away from redundant social network functionality. **[Pascal Van Hecke - Daily Links » 2007 » September » 21](http://links.vanhecke.info/2007/09/21/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-21 16:39:56 \[...\] Stop building social networks (Chris Messina) “We need to stop building independent spider webs of sticky siloed social activity… to stop fighting the nature of the web and embrace the design of URIs for people… to have a user agent that actually understands what it means to be a person online.” (tags: socialsoftware social\_software socialnetworking interoperability portablesocialnetworks socialgraph chrismessina digitalidentity) \[...\] **[It Takes a Village : \[chrisbrogan.com\]](http://chrisbrogan.com/it-takes-a-village/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-22 02:20:16 \[...\] posts today, one by Steven Hodson and his Chris Messina-ness that got me thinking about two specific aspects of social media that I think bear pulling out of \[...\] **[Sam Rose](http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-22 09:31:19 @Howard Greenstein: I think this could easily apply to B2B networks, too. Maybe people won't need their Facebook profile, but maybe they will want to have a pofile that they can migrate easily from one B2B network to another...I know I would like this. **[Trey Tomeny](http://replacegoogle.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-23 04:21:48 I have developed a global solution that can make the entire web people-centric and solves the issues you mentioned as well as many others. It is called the Private Identity Network (PIN) and details are available at replacegoogle.com. The Private Identity Network (PIN) creates a layer of abstraction around the existing Internet. Users who choose to use the PIN log on with their chosen Private Identity Provider (PIP) from any machine anywhere. Their PIP provisions their identities across the Internet according to the user's preferences and the requirements of sites visited. So users can choose whether to be anonymous, use a pseudonym, or use their real name. The PIPs should be very profitable enterprises- they will know pretty much everything about their users and will sell access (but never actual user information) to marketers. User information will be protected by the competitiveness of the market for identity providers. PIPs will be in the trust business. Those that develop reputations and technical features that make them the most trustworthy will become the largest. The Private Identity Network is a network because all of the PIPs are securely connected to one another and to the Network Guardian. The Network Guardian accredits and regulates the PIPs and, most importantly, maintains a database of very limited user information (name, date of birth, place of birth) for all users across the network. The "secret sauce" of the PIN is that all users must be natural persons, submit evidence to their PIP that they are who they claim to be, and may only have one active account at any time. This creates durable reputations and will change the way people interact on the Internet. If this interests you, please read replacegoogle.com carefully. If I'm barking up the wrong tree, let me know exactly where. I have never worked in the IT world so there may be numerous factors I have not considered. **[links for 2007-09-22 at Jason P. DeFillippo](http://jpdefillippo.com/blog/2007/09/22/links-for-2007-09-22/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-23 13:19:09 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť Stop building social networks Say it brother! (tags: socialnetworks community web2.0 identity future socialnetworking) Filed under links. | var blogTool = "WordPress"; var blogURL = "http://jpdefillippo.com/blog"; var blogTitle = "Jason P. DeFillippo"; var postURL = "http://jpdefillippo.com/blog/2007/09/22/links-for-2007-09-22/"; var postTitle = "links for 2007-09-22"; var commentAuthorFieldName = "author"; var commentAuthorLoggedIn = false; var commentFormID = "commentform"; var commentTextFieldName = "comment"; var commentButtonName = "submit"; \[...\] **Shane** ¡ 2007-09-24 04:11:38 The progress of the web, in my opinion, goes towards unification of different identities to a one comprehensive identity. The best offer available these days is [8hands](http://www.8hands.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), the profile aggregator, which allows you to manage your social network, combining all social networks to one, and letting you communicate with your friends, no matter if they are FB friends or Flickr friends. **[Anonymous](http://anonimity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-25 06:51:54 How about this new web service: http://anonimity.net/ "anonimity.net is an ideal get away from social networking apps. its a one of its kind testbed for anonimity on the web with comments, tagcloud and postflood." **[Stop making copies of the social network « Utterances of a Zimboe](http://zimboe.wordpress.com/2007/09/29/stop-making-copies-of-the-social-network/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-01 09:14:33 \[...\] making copies of the social network Update 10/01: I was a bit late: Stop building social networks :) (was on my reading list, but it took a while to acquire a time slice from my unfair \[...\] **[OAuth a closed system? « Utterances of a Zimboe](http://zimboe.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/oauth-a-closed-system/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-01 11:25:10 \[...\] the Consumer Key kills spontaneous federation. For example, OAuth might get very handy with the opening of the social networks, but not all social networks can (and much less should!) be registered to each other; with these 93 \[...\] **[Connection Commons DOT org » Blog Archive » Where my “head is at” - Links I Found of Interest out of \~9000](http://www.connectioncommons.org/2007/10/04/2007-10-04-shared-links/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-04 10:46:43 \[...\] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/09/20/stop-building-social-networks/ \[...\] **[Semantic Web as the "killer app", Part 2](http://sv2.mhlists.net/~wwwblah/index.php/2007/09/26/semantic-web-as-the-killer-app-part-2/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-07 02:50:36 \[...\] if you’d like another take on the problems associated with the proliferation of Social Networks, fee free to read \[...\] **[Stop met het bouwen van sociale netwerken! - Frankwatching](http://www.frankwatching.com/archive/2007/11/03/stop-met-het-bouwen-van-sociale-netwerken/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-01-18 15:52:20 \[...\] bij te houden. Een uniforme manier verzinnen waarop dit wel kan is bijzonder lastig, maar slimme mensen zijn ermee \[...\] ### Bookmarks for Sep 17 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/bookmarks-for-sep-17/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:01.000Z
    We publicly assert that all users of the social web are entitled to certain fundamental rights, specifically:**Ownership** of their own personal information, including:their own profile datathe list of people they are connected tothe activity stream of content they create;**Control** of whether and how such personal information is shared with others; and**Freedom** to grant persistent access to their personal information to trusted external sites. > > Sites supporting these rights shall:Allow their users to syndicate their own profile data, their friends list, and the data that's shared with them via the service, using a persistent URL or API token and open data formats;Allow their users to syndicate their own stream of activity outside the site;Allow their users to link from their profile pages to external identifiers in a public way; andAllow their users to discover who else they know is also on their site, using the same external identifiers made available for lookup within the service. Given that, I'd like to offer some thoughts, context and criticism in the interest of improving the quality and applicability of this work while also enhancing the thinking on these topics. ### A little context It's first important to note that this Bill of Rights is coming out of a broader context in which we have seen, in just the last few years, a number of large and medium-sized social networks emerge wherein members could not easily migrate from one to another without great cost. That cost comes, rather than in the form of a financial penalty (as in, a fee from your wireless provider for terminating your plan early), but in the amount of time and effort it takes to repopulate your data (whether profile data, blog posts, photos, videos or other original content), to recreate metadata like tags and comments, and to reestablish your relationships from one network to another. But, I'm getting ahead of myself. To understand this Bill (which I'm going to call a *manifesto* from now on, since there is no means of law enforcement on the web, and a bill tends to precede the establishment of law), you have to know a thing or two about the authors to understand their motivations and goals. Personally, I know [Marc](http://marc.blogs.it/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Joseph](http://josephsmarr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Mike](http://techcrunch.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Robert](http://scobleizer.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). They're the types who are first to join new social networks and quite often, are the first to be invited. They are prolific social networkers. I'm one of them, too. ### The portability toll The problem that folks like us face in spreading ourselves across so many networks comes in managing our multi-faceted and disaggregated selves. Given the amount of work spent building up and maintaining armies of friends on each network, we'd like for that work to pay off for a change and follow us around so that we never have to start from scratch again. This is the problem that Plaxo's [Pulse](http://pulse.plaxo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) seems to have set out to solve. But while I can relate to and do suffer from this "problem", I'm not convinced that it's such a massive "problem" for most of the world. (Yet). On a superficial level, you can infer why such an open and portable data scheme would benefit folks like us. However, such access, in the guise of *user rights*, would also greatly benefit those who are building applications that leverage or "feed" on aggregated social network data — presently [Ning](http://ning.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [PeopleAggregator](http://peopleaggregator.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Pulse](http://pulse.plaxo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and other "digital lifestyle aggregators" (to borrow Marc's term). Let's not mince words here: should such a Bill of Rights be implemented universally on all social networks, there would be a number of "host" applications that would immediately benefit, beyond merely the owners of said data. While avoiding the portability toll is certainly reason enough to rally behind the goals of open data portability, we must also be honest about what other kind of "commercial traffic" we'll see once we open up the proverbial toll roads. Facebook, for one, certainly has had to make a considerable number of tweaks to its platform in order to protect its members from abuse. And, auto-inviting at sites like Quechup demonstrate other dangers that comes along with making personal and contact data more readily available. The way forward should be towards openness and access, but it must also be in such a way that the benefits are delivered safely. ### Inhibiting manifest destiny and protecting the crown jewels In any case, if we're to make progress on this topic, we also have to understand a) why this kind of portability hasn't been embraced heretofore and b) how it has been hindered. On the first topic, Dare Obasanjo wrote a great post on why [social network interop hasn't — and probably won't — happen](http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2007/08/13/AProposalForSocialNetworkInteroperabilityViaOpenID.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me), explaining: > As usual when it comes to interoperability, the primary reasons for lack of interoperability are business related and not technical. Indeed, we've now got microformats and OpenID and previously had FOAF. And regardless of past formats efforts, the technical means for social network portability could easily have been developed had the political will existed and business case been made. Instead, Dare continues: > Why would [Facebook](http://www.facebook.com/) implement a feature that reduced their user growth via network effects? Why would [MySpace](http://www.myspace.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) make it easy for sites to extract user profile information from their service? Because openness is great? Yeah…right. Openness isn't why Facebook is [currently being valued at $6 billion](http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2007/07/11/facebook-rumor-microsoft-to-buy-it-for-6-billion/?ref=chrismessina.me) nor is it why MySpace is currently [expected to pull in about half a billion in revenue this year](http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/updating-myspac.html?ref=chrismessina.me). These companies are doing just great being walled gardens and thanks to network effects, they will probably continue to do so unless *something really disruptive happens*. So there's the business reason, at least for the big sites, why they haven't gone *totally* open. Now let's consider how portability has been effectively hindered on these sites: - **Paranoia about terms of service:** This is the one that's probably kept most large companies from simply making available the tools or import mechanisms for scraping out each other's social network infrastructure. Since many Terms of Service prohibit certain access or uses of site data, especially for commercial entities, this kind of functionality tends to be avoided (consider the morass and lawsuits that accompanied the cross-network IM wars). - **Limited access to data:** Of course the most effective way to inhibit cross-polination of data is to simply not make it available. While some sites like [Pownce](http://pownce.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Twitter](http://twitter.com/api?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Flickr](http://flickr.com/services?ref=chrismessina.me) make their data fairly open and available, many more do not, at least in any publicly consumable or exportable form. - **Obfuscation of data:** Some sites have made their data available, but in arcane or unparseable formats. Just because your data is "open", doesn't mean it's usable. Consider the case of government contractors who make their data available for auditing... in the form of thousands of *printed pages*. Sure it's open, but can you *really* use it? This is something that should be impressed upon in any kind of manifesto or Bill of Rights; *unqualified* open data is simply not enough! - **Apathy and/or ignorance:** Rather than chalk up the lack of open data to some grand conspiracy theory aimed at keeping us and our data locked up for pure commercial reasons (okay, that *is* pretty plausible), I imagine that in many cases, the common perception is that the portability of data simply offers no obvious benefits to a site's members and just isn't worth the development effort and ignorance exacerbates the problem if it appears that it takes more than 15 minutes to start offering portable data. So, we now have some ideas about why social networks aren't more open and how they've been kept locked up... but what's the big deal here, really? Do we really need to pipe our data all around Tarnation to find happiness or what? Wouldn't we then just end up with a bunch of redundant stuff that's out of place, out of date and possibly incorrect? Or, if we were able to schlep our stuff freely from one outpost to another, and everything was magically synchronized (OMG, I don't even want to think about that), what are we now able to do that we weren't able to do before that's of *any consequence*? I alluded to this earlier, but according to [danah boyd](http://www.zephoria.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), there's a lot of people [who seem really to not mind leaving their profiles (and "internet friends") behind](http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2007/01/01/ephemeral%5Fprofi.html?ref=chrismessina.me) when they jump sites or — heck — forget their passwords and have to start all over. Is the problem as bad as we, the prolific social networkers with "inhibited manifest destinies", seem to think it is? Or is this just a problem with the early adopters who have thousands of friends that they seem to think to want to cart around everywhere while they increasingly find themselves with ever-diminishing amounts of time to even "play" social network anymore? Ah, *humbug*. ### An open, portable, social web Well, in spite of my arguments to the contrary, I actually quite agree with much of the intent of *Open Social Web Manifesto*, even if I'd say things and emphasize aspects differently ([Flock](http://flock.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) was my inverse attempt at solving this problem through the ever-present and omniscient web browser, *donchaknow!*). For one thing, we actually don't know what would happen if all (or even some) social network data were truly open and portable. It's never been done — at least on a grand scale — and as I'm given to the pursuit of institutional transparency, access and openness, it's something that I think should be done, if only to afford the opportunity to figure out applications later. So, if we're talking about portable data, it's of course important to know *which* data we're talking about, and the manifesto handily defines them as: - profile data - list of friends - the "activity stream" (whatever that means) ...but is this list sufficient? Should our access be limited to data that we input into the system? Or should we also be privy to stats and metadata on how our data has been used, analyzed, accessed and provided to partners, measured, used to provision advertising and how it otherwise generates value for the network? I don't know; I'm just asking. Because what we're talking about, and what Brad and Dave have been working at, is opening up the social graph, and arguably, the social graph is made up of more than just identifiers, profiles and the connections between those identifiers and an "activity stream". Where's the EXIF data for the social graph that gives us additional and already-known *meaning*? I'm pretty sure that if Brad has his way and builds his super spider, we *will* end up with an open social graph whether sites decide to play along or not. That's tricky but not the hardest part. The hardest part is in the social engineering and politicking towards getting sites and business, across the internet and around the world, to wholly embrace the principles and practices that support and sustain an open, free and fair web (whatever that looks like), not simply in the short term, but for as long at the web exists. ### The power of setting a good example At [BarCampBlock](http://barcamp.org/BarCampBlock?ref=chrismessina.me), I participated in a conversation about positive principles and behaviors that we look for in BarCamp sponsors. The discussion was precipitated by a ban that I instituted against Microsoft for their [patent trolling](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/15/AR2007051500111.html?ref=chrismessina.me) earlier this spring. Over the course of the conversation, I gained a number of valuable insights primarily from [Tantek](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), and I think that they apply here. First, when I [originally announced my decision to ban Microsoft contributions](http://groups.google.com/group/barcamp/browse%5Fthread/thread/6da7438d81173fb3/c523ffc2d7072023?lnk=gst&ref=chrismessina.me), I made the mistake of pointing to the organization as much as to the behavior I sought to stigmatize. As a result, my primary point was lost amidst perceptions that I was simply unfairly attacking Microsoft simply because they were Microsoft. This couldn't have been further from the case, given how much good Microsoft and its evangelists have done for the BarCamp community. But because of how I presented things, I lost the opportunity to discuss the offending behavior itself, and ended up debating whether Microsoft deserved to be singled out. Similarly, I learned that making a public statement on my blog and identifying values, principles or behaviors that I look for in sponsors would likely have gone further towards my goals than narrowly attacking one specific action. While I might have cited the example as a betrayal of the values that I look for, I would have been beyond merely point blame in any single direction, leaving the accused to feel defensive and resentful. Ok, so how does that apply here? Well, I think Joseph's [post](http://blog.plaxo.com/archives/2007/09/there%5Fis%5Fnow%5Fa%5F1.html?ref=chrismessina.me) summarizes the intent of this effort well: I hope the conversation continues to grow, and I hope this helps both sites and their users clarify how they want the social web to work, so that they can collectively make it so. They've also done us a favor by kicking things off with a manifesto that *works for the authors*. However, in order for this effort to truly succeed, I think that it's contingent upon the rest of us to stand up, individually, and put our demands out there in writing, for each other to see and bear witness to, and, where it makes sense, to sign on to each other's statements where we are in agreement. Conceivably, through a distributed approach to this problem, we will have enough coverage to develop a more powerful and accurate representation of the problems that we want solved by social network openness and data portability. On top of that, if Joseph is able to get Plaxo to stand up and embrace a subsequent draft of the document, he, through Plaxo, will be demonstrating a very specific kind of leadership and of setting a positive example for others to emulate. This work has been underway for some time and it's been given a helpful boost with the co-authoring of this manifesto. As Joseph has done, I invite others to go beyond just signing on to the existing document, but to also take the time to [write up your own thoughts](http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/2007/09/i-support-the-o.html?ref=chrismessina.me) on what the open social web should look like and why you think it's worth the effort to make the changes to make it possible. Remember, we're trying to change minds *and* assumptions here. As Tantek encouraged me, I invite you to contribute to this conversation openly and to set the example of the kind of openness and transparency you want to see in the social networks of the web. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Matt Katz](http://www.morelightmorelight.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-06 11:10:05 I haven't read a clearer summary of the debate before. The key for the bill of rights might be to model some of it on how the creative commons folks have made their moves. Instead of demanding rights, allow for a positive feedback cycle by creating levels of openness that people can advertise in specific ways. I may license my work BY-SA, but others may insist on BY-NC-SA. Each of those has recognizable icons like RSS that indicate what you can get. So let me advertise on my site a standard for people's "mydata" rights. I could say that I keep everything private, but allow openid authentication. Or my social site might let you get an export of any of your data, but not let you link to external signifiers (maybe i'm very concerned about spammers or link farmers...) Give me a way to advertise just how open I am that is universally recognizable. Something that implies a CONTRACT of sorts between me and my users. Then you've got something. **[links for 2007-09-07 — More Light! More Light!](http://www.morelightmorelight.com/2007/09/07/links-for-2007-09-07/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-06 22:29:51 \[...\] Social Networks Bill of rights. Great summary of the need for data rights. I’m looking at YOU facebook! (tags: mydata identity privacy socialsoftware socialnetworking social) \[...\] **[First In-Depth OAuth Explanation at Like It Matters](http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/09/07/first-in-depth-oauth-explanation/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-07 03:58:54 \[...\] can also recommend Chris Messina’s discussion of some of the larger principles behind our collective advocacy of portable social networks. Talking with Chris & Tara is what \[...\] **[links for 2007-09-07](http://www.behindthebuzz.com/links-for-2007-09-07/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-07 15:38:10 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť A Bill of Righteous intent Chris’s response to the Bill of Rights proposed for identity/personal data (tags: identity socialnetworking) Tags:Share This \[...\] ### MarsEdit 2.0 is out! URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/marsedit-20-is-out/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:07.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1323978490/?ref=chrismessina.me)I've been involved for many months in the MarsEdit beta list, even before Ranchero ([Brent Simmons](http://ranchero.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) [sold it to Red Sweater Software](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/02/24/marsedit-blog-editor-sold-to-red-sweater-software/?ref=chrismessina.me) (Daniel Jalkut). Today, after months of long work, Daniel has finally [released](http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/391/marsedit-20-is-out?ref=chrismessina.me) [MarsEdit 2.0](http://www.red-sweater.com/marsedit/?ref=chrismessina.me). Besides an exhaustive UI overhaul, MarsEdit now [supports Flickr account access](http://feeds.macworld.com/~r/macworld/all/~3/152014525/index.php?ref=chrismessina.me) through its new Media Manager, support for the WordPress ATOM XML-RPC protocol for adding categories and custom code macros [among other things](http://www.red-sweater.com/marsedit/new.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Brent's [written up](http://ranchero.com/?comments=1&postid=1700&ref=chrismessina.me) the release, as well as [TUAW](http://feeds.tuaw.com/~r/weblogsinc/tuaw/~3/152121068/?ref=chrismessina.me). For [$30](http://www.red-sweater.com/store/?ref=chrismessina.me), it's a pretty solid deal for a great piece of software. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Jon** ¡ 2007-09-04 23:46:28 Don't you think $30 is a little steep? I bought VMWare for like $47\. All of the Mac blog tools (Ecto included) have a long way to get to the ease of use and extensibility of Windows Live Writer... **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-05 06:12:58 $30 might be a bit much, but if you're a regular blogger, you quickly get your money's worth out of it. It also seems worth supporting an independent software developer make a living in order that he might keep working on improving the app. I do agree that there is still much to be improved upon with existing blogging tools (MarsEdit and Ecto included) for the Mac, but MarsEdit 2.0 is a rather steep improvement even over MarsEdit 1.2. ### How do we take care of each other? URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/how-do-we-take-care-of-each-other/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:06.000Z **Strong:** Kevin Burton reports that the fund raising drive has was [a complete success](http://feedblog.org/2007/08/29/greg-stein-fund-a-complete-success/?ref=chrismessina.me). As a result, I've removed the PayPal links from this post. Thanks all who donated!Kevin Burton IM'd me yesterday and asked if he could give me a call. "Y'know [Greg Stein](http://www.advogato.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)?" "Yeah," I said, "I just finally met him at [BarCampBlock](http://barcamp.org/BarCampBlock?ref=chrismessina.me). What's up?" "I just heard that he was mugged on his way home yesterday." "Is he okay?" I asked. "No." Apparently [two guys jumped Greg](http://crazybob.org/2007/08/restore-my-faith-in-humanity.html?ref=chrismessina.me) (who happened to be on crutches), gave him a black eye and serious laceration that was bleeding profusely when the ambulance arrived. All for a hundred bucks and a credit card. [](http://flickr.com/photos/joi/1021207575/?ref=chrismessina.me)Now, for those of you who don't know, Greg is a [great guy](http://www.advogato.org/person/gstein/?ref=chrismessina.me), and one who has done a tremendous amount of good for the open source world. He's now at Google doing loads of good work open sourcing their innards while chairing and acting as director of the [Apache Software Foundation](http://apache.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), lead developer of [Subversion](http://subversion.tigris.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), and all things [WebDAV](http://www.webdav.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). And it's really too bad that terrible things happen to good people like Greg. So Kevin decided he [wanted to do something](http://feedblog.org/2007/08/27/greg-stein-director-of-the-apache-software-foundation-was-mugged-accepting-donations/?ref=chrismessina.me). And that's why he IM'd and then called me. He's collecting donations in order to buy flowers, buy dinner and generally prove that, even when shit like this happens, that there is still good people and humanity in the world. And that when you [give so much of yourself away](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/07/15/the-gift/?ref=chrismessina.me) to others and expect nothing in return, you're the best candidate to [receive the support](http://www.skrenta.com/2007/08/pass%5Fthe%5Fhat%5Ffor%5Fgreg%5Fstein.html?ref=chrismessina.me) of the community you've helped for so long. So as I talked to Kevin about what we could do for Greg, it become abundantly clear that in all the social networking and digital ephemera that we've wrapped ourselves in we've done a pretty shoddy job of creating simple or obvious ways to help each other out in meaningful and effective ways when we're most in need. Our networks are self-healing; people are not. So what have we done to make it possible to immediately mobilize ourselves when things do go wrong in order to provide the most effective and helpful response? When it comes to taking care of one individual out of our hundreds of friends across these online networks, does the network confound or enhance our ability to pitch in and materially help out? When I was an admin of [Spread Firefox](http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), we were able to pull in a staggering $220,000 in 10 days to [put a two page ad in the New York Times](http://www.mozilla.org/press/mozilla-2004-12-15.html?ref=chrismessina.me). The community saw a need (a grandiose one, I might add) and responded. When the Dean campaign needed money, they put a call out and thousands upon thousands of campaign supporters would offer up microdonations and fill up the fundraising bat every time, accruing millions. When one of us takes a hit, how do we respond? How does the network help us give the best that we've got? I'm not saying I have the answers here — I'm really confounded. When Kevin asked me to pitch in, I was ready to hit the ground running — but what the hell do we do first? And in what proportion so that the multiplying aspects of the network doesn't overwhelm the rather mundane and essential goal of lending Greg a helping hand now, when he needs it? Well, for lack of anything we better, we kept it simple. For donations, I suggested [Donorge](http://www.donorge.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [ChipIn](http://www.chipin.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Network for Good](http://www.networkforgood.org/Npo/fundraising/default.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me) but Kevin ultimately just used a couple PayPal links to receive donations [on his blog](http://feedblog.org/2007/08/27/greg-stein-director-of-the-apache-software-foundation-was-mugged-accepting-donations/?ref=chrismessina.me). He set up a [Google Group](http://groups.google.com/group/gregsteinfund?ref=chrismessina.me) to organize folks, [coordinate good acts](http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2007/08/27/fund-setup-for-open-sources-greg-stein-who-was-attacked-last-friday/?ref=chrismessina.me) and answer questions. For flowers I suggested [Podesta Baldocchi](http://www.podestabaldocchi.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) here in the city. And while I think these efforts will ultimately prove successful and bring Greg a degree of relief and a smidgeon of hope, I think it also in some way serves to illustrate our need for what [Stephanie Trimble](http://www.flickr.com/people/strimble/?ref=chrismessina.me) has called [Giving 2.0](http://giving20.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (and that she has currently [put into action](http://giving20.wordpress.com/2007/03/09/what-is-giving-20/?ref=chrismessina.me) offering people who work for Web 2.0 companies \[a way to\] get together to volunteer for charitable organizations). If the government's response to Katrina proved anything, it's that our safety and well-being is in each others' hands. And that we have to figure out how to put these new networks into our employ, and to figure out how design them to serve our human needs in the most vital times. It's ideas like Brian Caldwell's [Emergency Social-Repeater System](http://eponymousx.com/blog/2007/08/26/mashups/emergency-social-repeater-system/?ref=chrismessina.me) or the [recent thread on the coworking mailing list for P2P health care](http://groups.google.com/group/coworking/browse%5Fthread/thread/668715b7b3114588/855c31d9698d816d?ref=chrismessina.me) that suggest that we're beginning the work to figure this stuff out for ourselves. In the meantime, Kevin is just about half way through raising $2000 to send Greg out to Big Sur where he can relax and recuperate. Even though no one deserves to experience the kind of thing that Greg did on Friday, I think he's more than earned the support of the community here. The systems of supporting ourselves and keeping each other safe certainly have a long way to go and deserve our attention; however, in the meantime, there is a more pressing need. For the moment we'll make due, and do the best that we can, for each other. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **danny** ¡ 2007-08-28 00:15:08 Dropcash at http://www.dropcash.com/ is very good for things like this. **[Greg Stein (Director of the Apache Software Foundation) was Mugged - Accepting Donations « Kevin Burton’s NEW FeedBlog](http://feedblog.org/2007/08/27/greg-stein-director-of-the-apache-software-foundation-was-mugged-accepting-donations/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-28 00:27:19 \[...\] links from Crazy Bob, Scott Beale, Chris Messina and Ted \[...\] **[Jamie Phelps](http://www.jamiephelps.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-28 06:59:53 Chris, I think this is a fantastic post. Great to remember that the people on the other end of those channels are real people with real problems that we can really help with. I don't know Greg, but your compassion and initiative are inspiring. Keep it up! **[Sam Rose](http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-28 14:49:53 I'll be sure to chip in on this, as I have benefitted greatly from everything Greg's worked on, even though I never knew who he was until I just read this now. Here: http://communitywiki.org/en/SamRose we talk about an the idea of entrepreneurs like myself, who rely on Open Source Software, and Open Knowledge sources to "tithe" money from our profits to the projects and people that develop them. Many of these donations are actually deductable. It seems to me that this giving would make the Open source software, and open knowledge sources grow and improve. I also think that improving this "giving" so that we can quickly leverage networks is a fantastic idea. Count me in for th elong haul on helping to make this happen... **megan (higgins)** ¡ 2007-08-30 15:31:25 Holy crap, I found Chris Messina on the interwebz. Hope all is well! Just wanted to say hello. --Megan (Higgins) Gregory **[Al Billings](http://www.arcanology.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-01 09:30:33 The fund was a success and met its goal. They have closed it down. ### Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/groups-for-twitter-or-a-proposal-for-twitter-tag-channels/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:54.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/25419820@N00/1236321800?ref=chrismessina.me)This is the post that I alluded to in my last one about [Whispering Tweets](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/08/25/whispering-tweets/?ref=chrismessina.me). I'll make a disclaimer right now that the title of this post is misleading and actually *not* about Groups for Twitter. In fact, I'm not at all convinced that groups (at least as they are commonly understood on sites like Flickr) are ultimately a good idea or a good fit for Twitter. But, I do think that there is certainly some merit to improving *contextualization*, *content filtering* and *exploratory serendipity* within Twitter. This is a rather messy proposal to that effect. First, to borrow from [Stephanie Booth](http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2007/05/04/groups-groupings-and-taming-my-buddy-list-and-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Brian Oberkirch](http://getsatisfaction.com/twitter/topics/when%5Fis%5Ftwitter%5Fgoing%5Fto%5Fget%5Fgroups?ref=chrismessina.me#reply%5F11411), we should get our vocabulary straight. From [Stephanie](http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2007/05/04/groups-groupings-and-taming-my-buddy-list-and-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me): > "groups" or "shared-interest groups" ("Flickr-groups")"groupings" ("ad hoc assemblages of people with similar interests" — [Stowe Boyd](http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/files/building%5Fsocial%5Fapplications.pdf?ref=chrismessina.me))"contact groups" (organising my contacts) And [from Brian](http://getsatisfaction.com/twitter/topics/when%5Fis%5Ftwitter%5Fgoing%5Fto%5Fget%5Fgroups?ref=chrismessina.me#reply%5F11411): > Okay, so we are talking about 3 kinds of groups: public groups you 'join' a la FB groups. Ad hoc groups users control whether via grouping management (Pownce) or tagging. And then we have context specific groups based on location (@ South Park, anyone want to walk to Philz?). Those three types of groups essentially cover the [use cases](http://twitter.pbwiki.com/Groups?ref=chrismessina.me#Usecases) presented on the [Twitter Fan Wiki](http://twitter.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), to varying degrees. The type that I'm most interested in, and am prepared to offer a concrete proposal on, is actually of a fourth kind, most closely related to Stowe's "groupings", but with a slightly different lean, primarily in the model of how the grouping is established. In the cases presented above, there are very explicit approaches taken, since it's somewhat taken for granted that groups imply a kind of management. Whether you're dealing with public groups that you create, join and then promote or contact groups that you ultimately must manage like any kind of mailing list, they imply an order of magnitude of work that would ultimately work against the adoption of the whole grouping premise and thereby minimize any benefits to a select group of hyper-dedicated process-followers. I'm more interested in simply having a better eavesdropping experience on Twitter. To that end, I focused my thinking on *contextualization*, *content filtering* and *exploratory serendipity* within the Twittosphere. It occurred to me that IRC presents a proven model for these needs with its foundation on channels, and so that's what I'm *generally* going to call them. Now, in thinking about implementing *channels*, it was imperative that I not introduce any significant changes into the way that I currently use Twitter any more than I have for other features that have been added to Twitter (for example, [@replies](http://twitter.com/blog/2007/05/are-you-twittering-me.html?ref=chrismessina.me) or [direct messages](http://twitter.com/blog/2006/11/are-you-getting-messages.html?ref=chrismessina.me)). Channels would need to be a [command-line-friendly](http://microformats.org/wiki/picoformats?ref=chrismessina.me) addition, and one that would require absolutely zero web-based management to make the most of it (to draw a distinction, [Pownce](http://pownce.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) fails this test with its Friend Sets, since it requires use of their website to take advantage of this feature). [Jaiku](http://jaiku.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) comes closest with their [channels](http://jaiku.com/channel?ref=chrismessina.me) implementation, making it extremely easy to create new channels (simply post a message that begins with a hash (#) and your intended channel name — and if the channel doesn't exist, it'll be created for you): [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/25419820@N00/1236753348?ref=chrismessina.me)This is how it works in IRC, and how it needed to work in Twitter. Where Jaiku's implementation overextends, however, is in its concept of a channel. Rather than serving merely as an ad hoc verbal guidepost, channels act more like [aggregation buckets](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1235965869/?ref=chrismessina.me) in Jaiku, allowing you to pull in all manner of content via feeds and the like. It's a great example of a [bridging app](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/08/09/we-need-bridges/?ref=chrismessina.me) for sure, but far beyond the straightforward functionality that I'm looking for from Twitter channels. In fact, Twitter channels could and probably should *feed into* Jaiku channels, but the inverse should not be true. So, let's get a bit more specific about what I am — and what I'm not — looking for from Twitter channels. A lot of people have made various suggestions towards implementing groups one way or another, but in order to be clear, I want to make certain functionality explicitly outside the scope of what I'm suggesting. Before I do that, I want to make a slight modification of the idea of a Twitter Channel. ### Channel Tags [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/25419820@N00/1237051904?ref=chrismessina.me)I spent some time talking to [l.m.orchard](http://decafbad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) at BarCampBlock and (I think) he mentioned tagging in Twitter (he works at Del.icio.us; that tagging is a priority of his should be obvious). He's [been talking](http://blogs.opml.org/decafbad/2007/08/21?ref=chrismessina.me#When:2:23:28PM) about this recently and offered a [pretty neat suggestion](http://decafbad.com/blog/2007/08/21/sticky-tags-for-twitter?ref=chrismessina.me) on this topic. Combining his proposal with [Thomas Vander Wal's](http://www.personalinfocloud.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) concept of the folksonomic ["Come to Me Web"](http://www.personalinfocloud.com/2006/01/the%5Fcome%5Fto%5Fme%5F.html?ref=chrismessina.me), a fuller picture of these "channels" began to form. [Soliciting opinions](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/223115412?ref=chrismessina.me) from the Twittosphere on the format helped, as did a conversation with [Britt](http://lukewarmtapioca.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) from Twitter on this idea. What I've realized is that this "channel" concept meets many of the aggregate desires expressed in various "[Groups for Twitter](http://getsatisfaction.com/twitter/topics/when%5Fis%5Ftwitter%5Fgoing%5Fto%5Fget%5Fgroups?ref=chrismessina.me)" discussions while not inheriting a lot of the unnecessary management [cruft](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruft?ref=chrismessina.me) that most group systems seem to suffer from, it is easily accessible adapting current [Twitter syntax](http://microformats.org/wiki/twitter-syntax?ref=chrismessina.me) and convention, it's easy to learn and lightweight, it's very flexible and entirely [*folksonomic*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folksonomy?ref=chrismessina.me) and works with people's current behaviors, rather than forcing anyone to learn anything radically new. It also keeps the interface aspects to a minimum (as I'll soon explain), invents little by borrowing from age old IRC conventions also adopted by an *existing* web application and, from what Britt said so far, actually works consistently on cell phones (whereas, for example, the star key does not). What's really interesting, however, it how these channels can be used as tags within Twitter to open up entirely new possibilities. Every time someone uses a *channel tag* to mark a status, not only do we know something specific about that status, but others can *eavesdrop* on the context of it and then join in the channel and contribute as well. Rather than trying to ping-pong discussion between one or more individuals with daisy-chained @replies, using a simple #reply means that people not in the @reply queue will be able to follow along, as people do with Flickr or Delicious tags. Furthermore, topics that enter into existing channels will become visible to those who have previously joined in the discussion. And, perhaps best of all, anyone can choose to `leave` or `remove` topics that don't interest them. I also like that the folksonomic approach (as in, there are no "pre-established groups") allows for a great deal of expression, of negotiation (I imagine that #barcamp will be a common tag between events, but that's fine, since if there is a collision, say between two separate BarCamps on the same day, they'll just have to socially engineer a solution and probably pick a new tag, like #barcampblock) and of decay (that is, over time, as tags are used less frequently, other people can reuse them -- no domain squatting!). It also enforces actual use in the wild of tags, since no evidence of a tag will exist without it first being used in conversation. This means that representing channels in tagclouds across the site that grow and fade over time, and are contextual to all of Twitter or to a single user, is the ideal interface for displaying this information. Oh, and from a language/design perspective, you can actually turn regular words in a sentence into channels, just as many people do with @replies. For example: *I'm coming to #barcamp later today.* ### Specifics So I think I've provided at least a vague overview of this notion of "Tag Channels" and that they're simply used by prefixing one or more words with the hash (#) character. Contrary to my usually general ideation, I want to go a little further and get more specific (probably inspired by my work lately on OAuth). Let's see how specific I can get... #### Syntax - `follow #tag`: subscribe to all updates tagged with *#tag* - `follow username#tag`: subscribe to all updates tagged with *#tag* from a specific user - `leave #tag`: unsubscribe to a tag; you will still get updates with this tag from your friends - `leave username#tag`: unsubscribe to a specific from a specific user - `remove #tag`: completely remove all incoming posts tagged with *#tag*, even from your friends - `#tag message`: creates a status in the *#tag* channel - `#tag !message`: creates a status that is only visible to people subscribed to channel tag *#tag* Other notes: - In this first version, channels shall not be made public or private; using a channel tags in a status does not affect its privacy. Whoever could see a status without the channel tag can see the status *with* the channel tag. - No one owns or administers a tag channel. - A channel is created the first time someone posts a status with a channel tag. - Channels cannot be deleted; the only way to remove a channel is delete all statuses with a particular tag (this is consistent with sites like Delicous or Flickr). - The channel URL format on Twitter should be `http://twitter.com/#channel_name`. This differs from Jaiku's convention (`http://jaiku.com/channel/#channel_name`) but follows the IRC standard. - Channel names and usernames can overlap. Therefore, `http://twitter.com/factoryjoe` is not the same as `http://twitter.com/#factoryjoe` but both can safely exist. - To join a channel, simply add a tag hash (#) like this: *#barcamp The grid is open!*. - You can use any number of channels in an individual post, up to 140 characters, for example: *#barcamp #barcampblock The grid is open!*. - Unresolved: You should be able to [whisper to a channel](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/08/25/whispering-tweets/?ref=chrismessina.me) (the status will show up in your public timeline but will not be sent to your friends who are have not joined the channel) by prefixing your message with a bang (!). - You can subscribe to as few or as many channels as you like. - You can leave a channel at any time. - Via the API, using a new "roster" command (taken from [Jabber](http://www.xmpp.org/registrar/querytypes.html?ref=chrismessina.me#roster)) you should be able to get the recent list of people who have posted to a channel. #### Mockups I've created [a](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1237793656/?ref=chrismessina.me) [few](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1236918165/?ref=chrismessina.me) [mockups](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1237731776/?ref=chrismessina.me) for this [concept](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1236833797/?ref=chrismessina.me). They need a bit of work, but get things started. Here's the [homepage with most recent active channel tags](http://www.flickr.com/photos/25419820@N00/1236839235?ref=chrismessina.me):[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/25419820@N00/1236839235?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Test case Twitter got a [huge](http://blog.podbop.org/archives/2007/03/10/sxsw%5Fcool%5Ftools%5Ftwitter/?ref=chrismessina.me) [boost](http://www.web-strategist.com/blog/2007/03/10/twitter-communication-tools-of-sxsw/?ref=chrismessina.me) at last year's SXSW conference. I'm thinking this year, rather than prefixing SXSW-specific messages with 'sxsw'... tag channels could replace that hack with allowing people to simply insert #sxsw any where in their updates. This works for both the broader conference (organizers can post schedule updates using #sxsw) and for coordinating during the main event (the Interactive portion might use #sxswi and small groups of friends might pick random tags like #sxswbanc to plan around). On top of that, it's super easy to filter out statuses that use a specific tag (answering a complaint from folks not attending SXSW last year and overrun with SXSW tweets)... and, if you only want to subscribe to #sxsw statuses from certain people at SXSW, you can do that as well. While this proposal is not at all finished, I think it presents a fairly simple and clear (at least in my head) plan for implementation of "group-like functionality" without violating the original premise of Twitter. The simple addition of tag channels means that people can track content and updates more relevant and interesting to them without exerting a great deal of extra effort or learning any kind of extraneous of syntax. While the interface on the website still needs to be resolved, the beginning steps look somewhat promising and workable. So I guess that's it. I'm eager to get feedback and to refine this proposal. For now, we can discuss on Twitter using #channels as the tag; we can refine this proposal on the Fan Wiki under [TagChannels](http://twitter.pbwiki.com/TagChannels?ref=chrismessina.me). ### Notes One other aspect that I like about the emergent folksonomic approach to "grouping behaviors" on Twitter is that it doesn't rely on special Twitter accounts to be created that do the auto-friending thing (which requires action by a Twitter employee). Instead **all** tag channels automatically "add back" everyone who uses the tag, as well as those who simply "join". In terms of accelerating serendipity, this is a huge win for conferences and individuals, not to mention Twitter employees! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[A brief history of the hashtag | Union Metrics](https://unionmetrics.com/blog/2016/02/history-of-hashtag/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2016-02-23 09:39:02 \[…\] Messina talks a little more about his motivation for this in a blog post also from 2007: \[…\] **[ravi karandeekar](http://ravikarandeekarsblog.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 23:31:57 Hello Factoryjoe! I agree with your concept of tags! I am already using this concept on twitter. You are my tag. You are my group. Great thing is, it has many things you have mentioned. You are a group 'owner'(Google group), but you are not even aware about it. You do not have to manage or run it. Even you have not joined your own group. You came to know about it only because i told you. We have 3/4 million 'human tags'! After all, we all are human beings (thought we twitter!) we can enjoy our freedom at Madagascar. We can survive and prosper without cages! **[Craig Overend](http://craigoverend.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 00:02:17 Chris, my first thought was that your replicating the XRI 2.1 (inames) syntax with different(user friendly) symbols. [See these XRI examples.](http://wiki.oasis-open.org/xri/XriCd02/DirectConcatenation?ref=chrismessina.me) **[Amie](http://ebsq.livejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 04:18:00 I think you've addressed pretty much everything on my wishlist for twitter with the exception of selected privacy, ie being able to denote certain tweets are for friends-only and not the general twitter stream. Excellent proposal, Chris! Here's hoping we'll see something like this happen soon! **[Man with no blog : » A Tweets of Random - Gary Barber](http://manwithnoblog.com/2007/08/26/a-tweets-of-random/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 06:13:55 \[...\] have been talking about this for a while. So taking a leaf out of the Pownce, Chris Messina has suggested a method of implementation tag channels in Twitter. Looking at this closely I \[...\] **[Taylor@taylorbeseda.](http://tbeseda.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 08:14:00 I would use it ... but does it promote answering twitter's "What are you doing?"? I'd hate to see twitter turn into a rampant IRC chat room. Like you wrote about, some people already abuse the @username feature to conduct their IM conversations (I know I'm guilty). Channels would fill a need for easier discussion, and I would like to see this happen. However, twitter does not promote chatting as they stand right now; so, if twitter were to adopt something like channels they may have to change what they are asking of users. **[Ideastreaming … a concept | WinExtra](http://www.winextra.com/2007/08/26/ideastreaming-a-concept/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 08:42:08 \[...\] currently have any tagging mechanism that is about to change if folks like Stowe Boyd and Chris Messina; who are proposing a hash (#) tagging system for the service, get any traction with their \[...\] **[Kevin Marks](http://epeus.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 08:51:31 How about the idea of sticky channels or tags? For event-based channels, saying '#etech' or '#sxsw' in every tweet adds a lots of overhead. If you join a channel in irc, clients keep you in it until you leave. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 09:19:40 @Amie: That's kind of why I proposed the whispering functionality -- it gives you that ability with ONE small group of friends -- and doesn't devolve into more stuff to manage. The point of Twitter is to answer "What are you doing"... whispers provide a way of doing that to a small group of folks... with the intention of encouraging more folks to remain pubic with the majority of their status updates. @Taylor: Great point. As I just said, I do want to retain the "what are you doing" aspect that makes Twitter so interesting and focused. At the same time, you also have to look at how people are currently using Twitter -- and what their conversations look like. Scott Beale posted about [Twitter at Burning Man 2007](http://laughingsquid.com/twitter-at-burning-man-2007/?ref=chrismessina.me "Twitter at Burning Man 2007 (permalink)") and talked about how Burners have set up their own Twitter group, using the '[burners](http://twitter.com/burners?ref=chrismessina.me)' as an auto-friending account with the prefix 'burn' to get status updates to show up in the account. Again, this is relying on a hack that works well for people who are friends of Twitter, but simply doesn't scale -- nor does it provide for discoverability. I actually think that the Tag Channel are a way to make Twitter *more* about what you're doing, but with greater relevant context. So instead of getting a partial sense for what's going on, you can now listen in on channels that offer a fuller view of the conversation -- or, again -- allow you to filter it out. I think Lane really provides an excellent use case in his desire for [conference keywords](http://getsatisfaction.com/twitter/topics/when%5Fis%5Ftwitter%5Fgoing%5Fto%5Fget%5Fgroups?ref=chrismessina.me#top%5Freply%5F10831). He's totally right at looking at both existing behavior and a narrow need... But to my thinking, it's so specific that few people would remember the command let alone use it. Additionally, when you syphon off status updates via direct messaging commands (like the proposed 'g' for groups or 'c' for conference) people actually lose context... If you don't change anything but instead give observers the tools to filter out stuff that they're not interested in, I think it maintains the utility and purpose of Twitter without a great deal of overhead while also increasing the value and ability to get out of Twitter what one is looking for. **[Amie](http://ebsq.livejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 09:27:50 Chris, I found this post via your link on twitter and had totally missed seeing your earlier whisper post, hence the "duh" factor of my original comment, lol. I really like your proposed method of handling the occassional need for privacy without otherwise having to go all-out private. Too many times I've wanted to tweet to my friends but didn't because what I had to say wasn't for general consumption. Adding this feature would make twitter so much more useful to me. **[Stephen Collins](http://www.acidlabs.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 12:33:09 Chris, you win my vote! Taking this lightweight, folksonomic approach really floats my boat. And, if I know Thomas (VdW), he'll like it a lot also. It really appeals to the information architect aspect of me and you seem to have covered all the important bases. **[eponymousX » Blog Archive » Emergency Social-Repeater System](http://eponymousx.com/blog/2007/08/26/mashups/emergency-social-repeater-system/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 14:40:29 \[...\] Chris Messina’s concept of #hashmarks as an impromptu channel creation methodology is adopted in Twitter, then perhaps this can also be used to create a repeater \[...\] **[A Frog in the Valley » call me a CLI nostalgic…](http://www.afroginthevalley.com/2007/08/26/call-me-a-cli-nostalgic.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 15:51:26 \[...\] I think these all point to something happening right now. Not that I would have stated that before. Or why should \[...\] **[blognation UK Technology » Blog Archive » Twitter Users Find New Features](http://uktech.blognation.com/2007/08/27/twitter-users-find-new-features/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 20:05:18 \[...\] messages to different groups. In the absence of an offical twitter “groups” feature, Chris Messina suggested using a # key in a message update to deliniate a \[...\] **[Nicole Simon](http://crueltobekind.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-27 04:51:08 Twitter is the nearest thing coming to what irc was so good about - public communication. writing @name in irc setting was never meant to be just for name - otherwise it would be a message to that person, but meant for the public to chime in. As such I am all for having a tool - not really caring about what it is called as long as it is open and accessible - to have the channel feature back. Not everybody wants to read a channel or a topic - this is why you can join different ones and only read the ones you are interested in; and irc has been strong in tools about ignoring and highlighting. I like your proposal but the one thing I am missing in there is the reason why some of us are so keen on 'groups'. Because I already know which part of my twittering will be uninteresting to you: Everything I post in German. Now, your take on that allowing for somebody I do not know that about to drop in is a good one, but the problem is that you defenetly NEED an ignore tag for lang:de from the start. The "do not include" somehow is the strongest tool but often neglected. I would happily post much more if I would be sure my readers would know how to ignore the stuff they are not interested in. For example ignore everything that is in barcamp, or does talk about xyz. And while I like the idea of managing this experience, I would rather see this happening on a bigger than jsut on twitter alone. To test this in micro form how this can be applied to the big level, yes. But please keep in mind how to adapt this and make sure it can be applied to a general stream of information. To sum it up: How do you make sure that from the beginning you only see languages you are interested in without having 'see' #lang:en in all tweets? :) **[Twitter Groups](http://www.engageinpr.com/?p=312&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-27 09:18:55 \[...\] has been some ongoing talk, mainly from Chris Messinaa and Stowe Boyd, around the ability to group within Twitter. Brian Solis has a terrific \[...\] **[Socialtwister 2.0 » Blog Archive » Twitter Channels, Hmm…](http://www.socialtwister.com/2007/08/27/twitter-channels-hmm/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-27 10:01:28 \[...\] Source: “Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels”, Factory Joe \[...\] **[Catch up ! - Online Diary](http://www.venukb.com/blog/2007/08/28/catch-up/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-27 11:36:55 \[...\] Chris does throw up an interesting proposal on Twitter Groups \[...\] **[The Haystack / Assorted links for 2007.08.27](http://www.the-haystack.com/2007/08/27/assorted-links-for-20070827/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-27 12:45:52 \[...\] Twitter-related links: Chris Messina’s proposal for Twitter Tag Channels and Plagiarism Today’s Twitter \[...\] **eric.scheid@ironclad** ¡ 2007-08-28 08:46:08 nice stuff ... one minor nit though is that http://twitter.com/#channelname won't work ... that form of URL would be read by the browser as meaning "jump to the #channelname anchor on the page http://twitter.com/" (ie. the home page) a curly question: how would the #channel !whisper thing work if you have multiple #channels in your message, and also if the #channel\_name is mentioned in-line? a syntax style opinion: might "remove #channel" be better as "ignore #channel", since it doesn't (a) remove you from the channel, nor (b) remove past channel msgs from your stream. The intent is to ignore msgs on that channel, right? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-28 09:09:31 @Eric: great points! For the first, I believe that Twitter can set up it's server to intercept requests for hashed content as URLs... this is the way it works on IRC servers... i.e. irc://irc.freenode.net/#barcamp I have suggested elsewhere that we could simply follow the Jaiku convention and do something like http://twitter.com/channel/barcamp or even http://twitter.com/tag/barcamp. Either would be fine for me. You're right about the whisper command not being very specific. Perhaps that's the weakest aspect of this idea. Still, it's similar to the "g" convention being considered within Twitter now... as in "g barcamp Here I come to BarCamp!" And I think your suggestion to use "ignore" rather than "remove" makes good sense. I used REMOVE because I thought it was part of the Twitter syntax... but maybe they've switched it to OFF. I wonder if OFF would be worth considering? Ugh, nevermind. I like IGNORE. Great suggestion! ;) **[twitter "Services" | Taylor Beseda](http://www.tbeseda.com/twitter-services/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-28 16:50:09 \[...\] the desire for new twitter features, in particular groups (or my favorite Chris Messina’s channels). While I’m in agreement with Chris’ solution the the “group problem”, \[...\] **[Roo Reynolds - What’s Next? » Blog Archive » Links for Wednesday 29th August, 2007](http://rooreynolds.com/2007/08/30/links-for-wednesday-29th-august-2007/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-30 03:28:43 \[...\] Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels - Chris Messina’s ideas for mproving “contextualization, content filtering and exploratory serendipity” in Twitter. ‘Channels’ through tagging. I like it. \[...\] **[Pascal Van Hecke - Daily Links » Blog Archive » links for 2007-08-31](http://links.vanhecke.info/?p=15&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-30 16:50:33 \[...\] Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels # follow #tag: subscribe to all updates tagged with #tag # follow username#tag: subscribe to all updates tagged with #tag from a specific user # leave #tag: unsubscribe a tag; you’ll still get updates with this tag from your friends # leave username#tag.. (tags: tagging twitter chrismessina factoryjoe irc channels context instantmessaging im microblogging presence statusbroadcast statusupdate) \[...\] **[about: things » Blog Archive » tumbling along the lines of anarchaia.org](http://www.sofasportler.de/dirk.blog/articles/tumbling-along-the-lines-of-anarchaiaorg?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-31 16:25:19 \[...\] ”I’m more interested in simply having a better eavesdropping experience on Twitter”.... YEAH! proposing a twitter ad-hoc grouping schema. \[...\] **[Twitter Hashtags: A Quickie at Climb to the Stars (Stephanie Booth)](http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2007/09/02/twitter-hashtags-a-quickie/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-02 10:27:50 \[...\] reference, hashtags is a proposal for Twitter tag channels by Chris Messina. It is still not the contact tagging I’ve been asking for — but I hear the Twitter boys \[...\] **[Library clips :: Groups : Twitter, Pownce and Jaiku :: September :: 2007](http://libraryclips.blogsome.com/2007/09/03/groups-twitter-pownce-and-jaiku/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-02 17:00:48 \[...\] take on Contact Groups with the whisper inner circle idea, well here is a proposal for a groupings or tag channels…this concept is similar to Jaiku Channels, as you append your message with \[...\] **[Web Strategy: What the Web Strategist should know about Twitter](http://www.web-strategist.com/blog/2007/09/04/web-strategy-what-the-web-strategist-should-know-about-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-04 03:34:14 \[...\] has social network features, so users can add or remove friends, where seeing thought leaders like Chris Messina and others seek ways to segment groups, more features will \[...\] **[Commercially Building on Public Conversations « Zero influence](http://zeroinfluence.wordpress.com/2007/09/04/commercially-building-on-public-conversations/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-04 14:32:18 \[...\] has been some good thinking about how to diversify the affordance of a Tweet. Chris Messina has been trying to the the #channel or #group thinking up and running. I’m not convinced, but \[...\] **[links for 2007-09-05](http://www.resonancepartnership.com/2007/09/links%5Ffor%5F2007-09-05.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-04 19:39:24 \[...\] Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels (tags: Twitter, tagging, web2.0) \[...\] **[Thejesh GN » 2007 » September » 05](http://www.thejeshgn.com/2007/09/05//?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-05 06:46:01 \[...\] read: Refer Twitter Fan Wiki for other API implementations and projects and here is the proposal for the twitter channel tag. (0) Comments Read More \[...\] **eric.scheid@ironclad** ¡ 2007-09-06 20:48:46 @chris - thanks! Sure, a web server could look for /something/#whatever in a request, but unfortunately most web browsers would never send such a request -- they know the #name part of an "http" url refers to an anchor within the returned resource, and thus don't send it in the actual request. This isn't necessarily the case with other protocols (eg. irc://) I do like http://twitter.com/channel/\[name\] however. Simple, straightforward. **[E L S U A \~ A KM Blog by Luis Suarez » Blog Archive » Groups for Twitter; or a Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels and on the Importance of Listening to Your End-Users](http://www.elsua.net/2007/09/10/groups-for-twitter-or-a-proposal-for-twitter-tag-channels-and-on-the-importance-of-listening-to-your-end-users/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-10 09:49:54 \[...\] is the one put together by Chris Messina, a.k.a. FactoryJoe, over at FactoryCity, under the title: Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels. Something that, by the way, has also been mentioned and adopted by Stowe Boyd, and which you can \[...\] **[Links from Ma.gnolia for September 20 to September 23 at Alex Jones](http://www.silverspider.com/2007/links-from-magnolia-for-september-20-to-september-23/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-22 23:01:14 \[...\] Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels \[...\] **[James Governor’s Monkchips » links for 2007-09-27](http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/27/links-for-2007-09-27/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-27 15:20:18 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels must read properly and parse the issues (tags: twitter) \[...\] **[10,000 Monkeys - Harnessing the Power of Typing Monkeys : From the 10K Monkey Idea Lab: Yelp + Twitter = Yelpitter](http://blogs.claritycon.com/blogs/kevin%5Fmarshall/archive/2007/11/05/3435.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-05 09:48:39 \[...\] next idea is two use the growing "#" tagging convention to track messages about the a restaurant on the Yelp review page. My friend Dave Bost likes \[...\] **[The Angst in Twitterdom | WinExtra](http://www.winextra.com/2007/12/12/the-angst-in-twitterdom/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-12 12:43:18 \[...\] came a suggestion from within the the Twitter community from people like Chris Messina, Stowe Boyd and Brian Solis for a way to create and follow conversations which is how the idea of \[...\] **[Climb to the Stars (Stephanie Booth) » Hashtags For My Followees](http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2007/12/18/hashtags-for-my-followees/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-12-18 08:34:13 \[...\] content (UCG)” everybody is talking about these days, but points to the fact that hashtags were initiated by users, not by the Twitter-makers — just like the \[...\] **Ben Tremblay** ¡ 2008-01-02 15:45:15 Looking at how folk use Twitter got me remembering group dynamics in PowWow. (You had to be there; systems in-form transaction, yes? This system truly enabled friendly fun camp-fire style exchanges.) I've been chewing on this for a few days ... reading posts that link to this one hear ... letting it simmer a while. I think I've got a model that would work. It doesn't use tags, it would be by subscription. Sort of. It's so simple it's sort of embarrasing. You know how many different view we have now. "Recent" (http://twitter.com/home) of course shows yours and everyone you're following. Then "Archive", your past tweets ... again self-evident. And "Replies", which is aweful nice ... most everyone misses @ traffic now and again. Then there's "Direct Messages" ... gotta luv systems that have simple PM Function. And, equally obvious, you can go to anyone else' page to see their past tweets. Not their "Direct" of course, nor their "Replies" ... common decency. Put here's the curve: "With Others" ... ok, I can see my buddies' view of his transaction ... not so interesting. Ah-Ha! Ok, I'm gonna stop here and give it a spin. --bentrem also ITGeek (group feed?) http://bentrem.sycks.net/twitter\_group.html **[#clouds: Using Twitter as a Command Line Service « Zero influence](http://zeroinfluence.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/clouds-using-twitter-as-a-command-line-service/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-08 15:33:28 \[...\] Hash Tags appear on Twitter recently, promoted by Chris from Citizen Agency. You need to read this post and this one too, to follow this idea. Oh, and have a look at the Twitter Wiki HashTag page for a \[...\] **[blending the mix » Blog Archive » Cool stuff i’ve been reading:](http://blendingthemix.com/2008/01/08/cool-stuff-ive-been-reading/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-08 16:30:26 \[...\] Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels | FactoryCity - Chris Messina - along the same lines. Grouping Twitter feeds \[...\] **[Twitter: la adicciĂłn a una comunidad](http://www.claudiachez.com/200801/twitter-la-nueva-adiccion-a-una-comunidad/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-11 13:18:09 \[...\] de este tipo de herramientas como forma de comunicaciĂłn para las empresas (mensajes para grupos de personas especĂ­ficas, bĂşsquedas de tĂŠrminos, entre otros…), pero no deja de representar una gran oportunidad \[...\] **[Twitter #Hashtags - CITRT Community : Church Tech Matters](http://churchtechmatters.com/2008/01/17/twitter-hashtags-citrt-community/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-17 06:49:35 \[...\] were developed as a means to create “groupings” on Twitter, without having to change the basic service. The hash symbol is a convention borrowed primarily \[...\] **[\[Blog Name Goes Here\] » Blog Archive » Twitter: Fun and Effective](http://whitneyhess.com/blog/2008/01/twitter-fun-and-effective/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-01-21 23:07:09 \[...\] the tweet and it will get posted to the Hashtags website under that tag. Chris Messina has proposed a whole hashtag syntax that would group your tweets on your Twitter homepage, but it has yet to be \[...\] **[Tools for Monitoring Conversations in Twitter-- bub.blicio.us](http://bub.blicio.us/?p=805&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-03-21 09:52:37 \[...\] August 2007, I wrote about a public discussion including Chris Messina, Stowe Boyd, and myself on the value of creating channels within Twitter. Its an important \[...\] **[What Happened to Twitter Tags & Groups etc? | stuart henshall](http://www.henshall.com/stuart/2008/05/28/what-happened-to-twitter-tags-groups-etc/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-28 16:50:06 \[...\] has been lots of discussion over time about Twitter tags and #tags etc. The most relevant info is on the Twitter Fan Wiki here. It seems to have died down \[...\] **[How delicious Could Become the Better twitter and Yahoo!s Holy Grail « vpx](http://vpxcc.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/how-delicious-could-become-the-better-twitter-and-yahoos-holy-grail/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-16 08:31:05 \[...\] it even gets better. A lot of twitter users use so called hash-tags (marked by a leading #) to track topics and conversations over different users. With your delis you \[...\] **[Using Twitter to Support Making Eco-Conscious Decisions :: Focus + Context](http://dangreenblatt.com/blog/2008/08/10/twitter-eco-friendly-decisions/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-12 05:31:56 \[...\] you can just ask the web and maybe someone who knows the answer will respond. There is also a very thoughtful proposal for IRC-style channels on Twitter via the use of hashtags (i.e. #chicagogreenpickle) to create \[...\] **[#hashtags and What do Do with Them : Ft. Hard Knox](http://forthardknox.com/2008/09/09/hashtags-and-what-do-do-with-them/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-09 12:28:12 \[...\] were developed as a means to create “groupings” on Twitter, without having to change the basic service. The hash symbol is a convention borrowed primarily \[...\] **[What’s A #Hashtag? « Advocate’s Studio](http://advocatesstudio.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/whats-a-hashtag/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-23 05:44:43 \[...\] were developed as a means to create “groupings” on Twitter, without having to change the basic service. The hash symbol is a convention borrowed primarily \[...\] **[Eric Lefevre-Ardant on Java & Agile » Valtech Days: twitter feed gave live updates](http://ericlefevre.net/wordpress/2008/10/27/valtech-days-twitter-feed-gave-live-updates/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-27 06:18:50 \[...\] you might have to figure one out and tell participants about it. A convention seems to be to use tags preceded by a pound sign, for example “#valtechdays”. However, it is simpler for conference participants if they \[...\] **[Satjot](http://www.buzzable.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-28 11:19:34 We've created a site that should make twitter style group communication simple and very useful. Check it out: www.buzzable.com Satjot **[Social Media Vision | Twitter: What is a Hashtag?](http://socialmediavision.com/?p=38&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-11 15:00:46 \[...\] The famous Chris Messina who started the idea of using Hashtags on twitter as a new means of grouping found here on his blog. \[...\] **[Graham Rawlinson](http://www.dagr.demon.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-07-04 02:29:04 I really like this, as much as I can understand it. What I need is an explanation system which is simple and which is based on my intent, the functions I need, not on what something does. So if each line could be like: I want to.. Set up an open group which explores the idea of a rule based idea offer service, so I set up #Ridea with some rules posted on http://tagdef.com/UknowUhoodWhen I am working on the idea of Multiplicity, that we all have many minds, and hope to get research funding for this, and my interest in your Tag/Group concept is that it matches what I think is how some of the brain works, as a consent to listen kind of operation. Edelman talks of Renentrant functionality (book Second Nature) and this leads to some kind of emergent properties which seem to be what 'intelligence' is all about, and maybe consciousness too! Not sure if any of what I am saying makes sense, it intuitively feels like it does. As a psychologist of 30+ years it is exciting to think we may at last be getting somewhere! Graham **[tony ferraro](http://twubs.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-09-11 14:18:16 this is a fantastic summary. it sounds like the author read our business plan. Twubs.com is on its way to most of the items mentioned. Any additional insight or development request is highly valued. **[Microsintaxis para Twitter y aplicaciones | Denken Über](http://www.uberbin.net/archivos/web20/microsintaxis-para-twitter-y-aplicaciones.php?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-08 21:29:38 \[...\] uno mira el uso original de los hashtags que Chris propuso hace ya mĂĄs de un par de aĂąos y como evolucionaron por su cuenta hasta ser un estĂĄndar, quizĂĄs \[...\] **[More microsyntax for Twitter from Chris Messina by Colin Devroe](http://cdevroe.com/links/messina-twitter-microsyntax/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-10 05:16:30 \[...\] Messina, founding father of the the ever-popular (and sometimes not) Hashtag, has proposed a few more syntax specific ways of doing things on Twitter. Chris is suggesting that \[...\] **[An Introduction On How To Use #Hashtags In Twitter | Media Leaders](http://medialeaders.tv/2009/09/11/an-introduction-on-how-to-use-hashtags-in-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-14 17:35:26 \[...\] were developed as a means to create ”groupings” on Twitter, without having to change the basic service. The hash symbol is a convention borrowed primarily \[...\] **[#movemeon – a suggestion. | dougbelshaw.com/blog](http://dougbelshaw.com/blog/2009/11/19/movemeon-a-suggestion/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-21 07:25:18 \[...\] you’re baffled by what’s below, the hashtag (first proposed by Chris Messina in 2007) allows ‘channels’ to be created in Twitter. These can be followed by services like \[...\] **[Tiago DĂłria Weblog » Uma nova sintaxe para o Twitter](http://www.tiagodoria.ig.com.br/2009/11/25/uma-nova-sintaxe-para-o-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-11-25 12:06:53 \[...\] no Twitter, mas faz parte da histĂłria do serviço de microblogging. Foi ele quem sugeriu a implementação de #hashtags para facilitar a busca e categorização de mensagens no \[...\] **[Rivolutionary use of Slashtags, new microsyntax for Twitter](http://workingviral.com/slashtags/2009?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-12-13 08:54:37 \[...\] invented by Chris Messina in 2007, are the most amazing stuff in twitter I think. Using an hashtag we can tag our tweets. \[...\] **[Anatomy of a Hashtag: #NHLTrade](http://vaynermedia.com/2010/03/anatomy-of-a-hashtag-nhltrade/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-03-04 12:18:15 \[...\] a tag at the end of their tweets, it is becoming more of a challenge to use hashtags for their original purpose. Overuse has lead to \[...\] **[On Taxonomies, Folksonomies, and Tweetonomies « Intentialicious: Markus Strohmaier's Weblog](http://mstrohm.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/on-taxonomies-folksonomies-and-tweetonomies/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-04-17 01:31:15 \[...\] in casual chatter and dialogue, ocassionally using syntax to coordinate communication (such as #hashtags or @replies). In the research paper mentioned below \[1\], we show that there exist latent conceptual \[...\] **[FactoryCity » New microsyntax for Twitter: three pointers and the slasher](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/11/08/slashtags/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-04-22 16:14:06 \[...\] the rage to design your own features for Twitter now, I figured I’d build on my success with the hashtag and crank out a few \[...\] **[The Short and Illustrious History of Twitter #Hashtags](http://gigaom.com/2010/04/30/the-short-and-illustrious-history-of-twitter-hashtags/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-05-01 12:41:54 \[...\] in the spring of 2007, Messina proposed the hashtag as a way to group conversations on Twitter, which was then an incredibly simple \[...\] **[An Ode to Usenet « Safe Digression](http://safedigression.wordpress.com/2010/05/20/usenet/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-05-20 03:02:31 \[...\] come from IRC usage. (Related: It’s actually quite cool to go back and read the early blog posts, shortly after Twitter came on the scene, by people proposing the use of things like \[...\] **[Twitter Hashtags: Nonprofits Speak Up | 24 Usable Hours](http://www.devonvsmith.com/2010/05/twitter-hashtags-nonprofits-speak-up/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-05-29 12:26:19 \[...\] early days, features were limited so users created their own taxonomy. In August of 2007 Chris Messina first proposed using the pound symbol “#” to help group similar conversations happening on Twitter. \[...\] **[A Hashtag Tutorial #Tribute | Left Brain Marketing](http://knowthenetwork.com/blog/2010/09/hashtag-tutorial-tribute/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-09-27 15:49:03 \[...\] was born out of an idea by @chrismessina and has blossomed into an amazing way to connect with others interested in the \[...\] **[The Short and Illustrious History of Twitter #Hashtags](http://www.salon.com/technology/the%5Fgigaom%5Fnetwork/tech%5Finsider/index.html?section=tech%5Finsider&blog=/tech/giga%5Fom/tech%5Finsider/2010/04/30/the%5Fshort%5Fand%5Fillustrious%5Fhistory%5Fof%5Ftwitter%5Fhashtags&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-12-21 18:32:56 \[...\] in the spring summer of 2007, Messina proposed the hashtag as a way to group conversations on Twitter, which was then an incredibly simple \[...\] **[The 10 Kinds Of Twitter Hashtaggers | Test](http://www.buzzfeed.com/spavis/the-10-kinds-of-twitter-hashtaggers?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2012-04-16 10:32:33 \[...\] back in ye olde aught seven, a humble man named Chris Messina proposed a convention for nerds to organize at events: The pound sign, making groups easily searchable. \[...\] **[Dani Grant](http://www.danigrant.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2013-05-16 07:13:44 @Chris: Do you happen to remember the "g" convention Twitter was considering in 2007 that you mention here? Out of curiosity--how was that to be used? **[Hashtag \[Dictionnaire\] | Technologies discursives](http://technodiscours.hypotheses.org/488?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2013-05-22 04:56:41 \[...\] en 2007 par Chris Messina, qui en dĂŠcrit l’usage dans un billet sur son blog Factoryjoe.com, ÂŤ Groups for Twitter, or a Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels Âť (2007). Deux jours auparavant, il avait lancĂŠ la proposition sur Twitter, dans ce tweet \[...\] **[Hashtags Come to Facebook. But Who Invented the Hashtag? « Ryan Peter. Writer.](http://ryanpeterwrites.com/2013/06/hashtags-come-to-facebook-but-who-invented-the-hashtag/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2013-06-13 02:07:48 \[...\] Hashtags initially became popular on Twitter and weren’t actually invented by Twitter itself. Chris Messina is the guy who claims to have invented them, proposing the use of them in a blog post. \[...\] **[The Hashtag?? This One Guy Invented It | Only Tech](http://onlytech.net/2013/06/the-hashtag-this-one-guy-invented-it/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2013-06-13 22:45:57 \[...\] August 25, 2007, Messina wrote up his proposal and posted it to his blog. Here’s how he framed it. “I do think that there is certainly some merit to improving \[...\] **[#Facebook gets #hashtags, which does #WTF to your #privacy? Âť Cyber Crimes Unit | Cyber Crimes Unit](http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/06/14/facebook-gets-hashtags-which-does-wtf-to-your-privacy?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2013-06-14 03:13:29 \[...\] Messina said about his hashtag rationale, he wasn’t interested in other people’s talk about creating \[...\] **[(hashtag) #Facebook | Du fixe et du flux](http://fluxetfixe.wordpress.com/2013/06/15/hashtag-facebook/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2013-06-15 08:30:19 \[...\] la contextualisation, le filtrage de contenu, et la sĂŠrendipitĂŠ Âť (Cf. Chris Messina, ÂŤ Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels Âť) : les usages plus ou mois anecdotiques ou poĂŠtiques, devraient donc ĂŞtre semblables… \[...\] **[The Hashtag: A History Deeper than Twitter | CopyPressed](http://www.copypress.com/blog/the-hashtag-a-history-deeper-than-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2013-07-01 06:30:06 \[...\] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/08/25/groups-for-twitter-or-a-proposal-for-twitter-tag-channels/ \[...\] **[Hashtag Search on Facebook - Nimble Tips | The Nimble Blog](http://www.nimble.com/blog/hashtag-search-on-facebook-nimble-tips/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2013-07-02 07:55:01 \[...\] pound (#) symbol began with one guy on Twitter back in 2007, looking for a better way to create Twitter Tag Channels. The hashtag has grown \[...\] **[Too much #hashtag! Time to wise up about the pound sign | Hashtaggers](http://www.hashtaggers.co/too-much-hashtag-time-to-wise-up-about-the-pound-sign/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2013-09-29 23:41:52 \[…\] says Chris Messina, a Google engineer who first suggested hashtags as a Twitter tool back in 2007\. “Like #when #people #tag #every #word #in #a #sentence! That’s not the \[…\] **[Why Facebook hashtags were doomed to #fail - Inside Facebook](http://www.insidefacebook.com/2013/10/03/why-facebook-hashtags-were-doomed-to-fail/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2013-10-03 03:01:08 \[…\] eco-system? Chris Messina, founder of the hashtag on Twitter, wrote about this desire in a blog post back in 2007: “I do think that there is certainly some merit to improving \[…\] **[20 UX Designers to Follow on Twitter | SlideRule](http://www.mysliderule.com/blog/20-ux-designers-to-follow-on-twitter/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2014-08-14 10:41:21 \[…\] Messina Ever wondered who created the hashtag? Well, Chris is your guy. He was also one of the UX designers behind Google+ and co-founded Barcamp – an \[…\] **[Hashtags: when, where, and how | Jon Stribling](http://www.jonstribling.com/hashtags-when-where-and-how/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2014-10-14 15:33:57 \[…\] in the wild world of Internet Relay Chat (IRC) and first made their way into being used on Twitter in 2007 as a way of tagging topics or talking \[…\] **[The evolution of the hashtag, and why you’re a part of it | Lachean Humphreys](http://lacheanhumphreys.wordpress.com/2014/10/24/the-evolution-of-the-hashtag-and-why-youre-a-part-of-it/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2014-10-23 16:24:32 \[…\] 2007 he published a proposal on his own blog, Factory Joe. The benefit of his hashtag system? “Rather than trying to ping-pong discussion between one or more individuals with daisy-chained @re… In this proposal, he even set out a detailed syntax for the different ways hashtags may be \[…\] **[Former Google+ designer slams the service for being 'Facebook lite' - GSS Media](http://mashable.com/2014/12/01/google-plus-adrift/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2014-12-01 18:30:26 \[…\] who is often credited with inventing the hashtag, acknowledges that Google’s social network has many devout users, and that it’s become \[…\] **[Former Google+ Designer: ‘We F\*cked Up!’ - PRNewser](http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/former-google-designer-we-fcked-up%5Fb103939?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2014-12-02 12:07:04 \[…\] (Not for nothing, but dude is credited by many with creating the hashtag.) \[…\] **[The new era of hashtag activism](http://kernelmag.dailydot.com/issue-sections/features-issue-sections/11390/hashtag-activism-real/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2015-01-17 23:58:24 \[…\] hashtags as a way to organize information and conversations on Twitter was conceived by former Google developer Chris Messina in 2007\. The original purpose, Messina told the Kernel, \[…\] **[What Is A Hashtag? The Invention That's Changing Social Media - Quid](http://www.quid.com.au/blog/hashtag-invention-thats-changing-social-media/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2015-05-27 19:16:50 \[…\] a blog post that followed this tweet, Messina explains that he basically wanted “a better eavesdropping \[…\] **[Happy Birthday Hashtags! | Conor Barron](http://conorbarron.com/happy-birthday-hashtags/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2015-08-24 14:56:18 \[…\] marks the 8th birthday of the hashtag. Since the idea of a channel tags were first muted in this blog post from Chris Messina on this day in 2008 they have becoming an essential part of any marketing \[…\] **[» #️⃣ ההאשתג, שנולד ליצור קבוצות וליווה מהפכות, חוגג עשור 📻 האחראי על האינטרנט בגלצ](http://room404.net/?p=72622&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2017-08-26 11:14:25 \[…\] כך הרחיב ופירט את הצעתו בפוסט בבלוגו. אומת הטוויטר אימצה את ההצעה, באירועי \[…\] **[How eavesdropping a conversation turned into the hashtag – #marketing](https://hashtagmarketing2020.wordpress.com/2020/04/24/how-eavesdropping-a-conversation-turned-into-the-hashtag/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2020-04-24 04:56:33 \[…\] With the digital revolution advancing so fast, it’s easy to forget the beginnings of certain things. Nowadays, 14% of kids don’t even know what the “Save” icon stands for (it’s actually a floppy disk!). Nowadays, digital marketers depend on the hashtag to generate engagement on social media, but the story of how it came about is quite interesting – it actually started with a guy wanting a better eavesdropping experience on Twitter! \[…\] **[Grow your Instagram followers organically: The secret to hashtags.](http://fouadtolaib.com/grow-your-instagram-followers-organically/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2017-08-08 07:19:39 \[…\] imagine that Ex-Googler Chris Messina invented the hashtag for Twitter 10 years \[…\] **[Hashtags fuel discovery – stephaniekatcher.today](https://stephaniekatcher.today/hashtags-fuel-discovery/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2016-11-13 13:37:32 \[…\] No matter how far communication tools advance, most often the relaying of information simply comes down to telling a story efficiently and effectively. A story needs to be impactful enough for the story to be cataloged for recall later and focused enough for the tribal lesson to come through clearly. There’s a process for doing just that in emerging media. It’s called hashtagging. \[…\] **[Why Your Productivity Software Has # Hashtags and @ Mentions | Your Human Resources Community](https://humancapitalleague.com/why-your-productivity-software-has-hashtags-and-mentions/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2017-01-01 07:03:06 \[…\] He sent the first tweet with a hashtag—and as he explained in a blog post a few days later, he figured a hashtag would make it easier to filter through content and find what you’re looking for. \[…\] **[Twitter: Origins of the Hashtag I Different Gravy Digital](https://differentgravydigital.co.uk/origins-of-the-hashtag/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2019-04-16 01:17:25 \[…\] actually published a blog post to share his ideas about the hashtag – you will notice that many of the ideas featured we use \[…\] **[The Kindle Chronicles - TKC 461 Chris Messina](http://www.thekindlechronicles.com/2017/06/02/tkc-461-chris-messina/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2017-06-02 13:57:17 \[…\] “Groups for Twitter; or A Proposal for Twitter Tag Channels” by Chris Messina at FactoryJoe.com – August 25, 2007 \[…\] ### Whispering Tweets URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/whispering-tweets/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:05.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/25419820@N00/1233889557?ref=chrismessina.me)As a preface to the post that I intend to write next, I wanted to quickly jot down an idea that I think would be useful for Twitter... it's partly inspired by my own instinct towards openness and partly clarified by [Lane Becker](http://monstro.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)'s [comment about Twitter Groups](http://getsatisfaction.com/twitter/topics/when%5Fis%5Ftwitter%5Fgoing%5Fto%5Fget%5Fgroups?ref=chrismessina.me#top%5Freply%5F10831) (the topic of my next status): > Personally, I'm not particularly interested in being able to create *groups of people I can send certain subsets of messages to*. That kind of fine-grained privacy management stuff drives me crazy on sites like Vox. Maybe I'm old-skool, but it feels like people in that environment are all about what they're hiding, not what they're sharing, and I prefer sharing. Hiding inhibits usage and growth, and it's lame like high school. Don't do it. *Emphasis added*. So it's interesting that Twitter went with a binary model of privacy — either you have it or you don't. Sure, you can direct message folks, but in terms of your complete timeline, either the world knows what's up with you or they don't. This is certainly straightforward and easy to grok, but doesn't really allow for a third option, which would be a form of conservative promiscuity: a very public timeline with support for statuses that can only be seen by your innermost circle (or even just yourself). The first step would be to set up a "whisper circle" or "inner circle" that will receive your whispers. This leaves you free to maintain a public timeline while adding the ability to restrict at least some of what you're doing to a small, and more intentional, audience. **N. B.**: You would only get one "inner circle" to start. For real [private messaging circles](http://adactio.com/journal/1316/?ref=chrismessina.me), you really should just use email or [Pownce](http://pownce.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). As far as I'm concerned, use the best tool for the job. This proposal is being made with the knowledge [that many people would be interested in having personal d-lists or buddy sets](http://getsatisfaction.com/twitter/topics/when%5Fis%5Ftwitter%5Fgoing%5Fto%5Fget%5Fgroups?ref=chrismessina.me#reply%5F10901) like Pownce, but I'm defying that out of concern that overloading Twitter with this kind of management functionality would turn Twitter into something it's not and wasn't intended to be — which is a replacement for email in 140 character chunks. I propose a very simple syntax for these kinds of messages: just begin your message with a [bang](http://www.computerhope.com/jargon/b/bang.htm?ref=chrismessina.me) (!) and then type your message as usual (yes, I do realize the irony in using the exclamation point for *whispering*). An [example](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/227282142?ref=chrismessina.me): ``` !psst... I'm whispering... ``` This status will only show up in the timelines of those friends who have been added to your inner circle. It will not show up in any public timelines. To reply to a whisper *with* a whisper, one of my friends could use either: `!@factoryjoe I can hear you.` or `@factoryjoe !I can hear you.` In either case, the use of an @reply to my whisper should not betray my confidence and would guarantee that I'd get the response in my replies. Like private tweets, only my inner circle at the time that I sent the message would be able to see my "whisper stream". I should also note that the name "whisper" comes from [IRC lingo](http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pfenning-irc-extensions-04?ref=chrismessina.me#section-6.8). It will make sense why I'm using both this syntax and this name in my next status on Twitter Channels — and, as an old Dodgeball user, the use of the bang to preface a message has been done before. For now I'm curious about your thoughts on the usefulness of this proposal. Again, it's incomplete without my next post, but as a simple protocol and as a way to bring back some folks who have gone private to living in the sunlight again, I thought I would offer it up for feedback. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Justin Thorp](http://drinkingoatmealstout.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 14:41:13 I dunno. Using the @ sign for replying to one person seems so natural. It's easy to wrap your head around. Adding exclamation points and pound signs seem like it'd be stretching it a bit much. Once Pownce releases their API, I'd love to see someone make an app where sending a status update is one of the options and when you do that it'd update Twitter. I could then use Pownce for sending messages and Twitter for pushing status updates but do it all from the same application. **Ben** ¡ 2007-08-25 14:41:30 I think it's a great idea, It's like Direct messages on twitter that go to all of your friends. I felt since twitter started that something like this should be added but I wasn't sure how. This seems like a great solution. **[william](http://www.sugarattack.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 14:56:10 I like the idea. But what i like even more is Pownce adding true mobile capabilities like Twitter and SMS. I'm not sure which will get done first - group messaging in twitter or those improvements to Pownce. Whichever service evolves into the other first wins imo. William **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 15:31:19 @william -- why does one service have to win over the other? Shouldn't you be able to pick and choose what works best? And let each service innovate in similar areas but with ultimately different experiences and use cases? **[eric L](http://www.n1s.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 15:48:24 i personally chose twitter over pownce precisely because of all the issues mentioned here. i see now benefit dividing my followers into subsets, and full mobile access is critical to me. your whisper is really just a "d" sent to all your friends (i assume this is the cross section of people who you follow, who follow you. why can't we just add catch words "friends" and "followers" for you to D and what !! is the difference between "d factory joe i can hear you" and "@factory joe ! i can hear you" don't add new syntax and new conventions when the old ones seem to accomplish the same thing perfectly well. let's not clutter up the system, eh? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 16:14:30 @eric: I must not have been clear. My whisper is not simply a direct message sent to everyone; that would defeat the point. In my proposal, for those whose timelines are public, a whisper would allow you to send private tweets to a *small number* of your friends -- not *all* of them. For example, you might have 50 people who you're following, but maybe only 5 coworkers that you want to send messages to. Rather than send that message to your whole list of friends as direct messages, whispers would show up in those small group of friends' timelines -- not as direct messages. You're right that there's little different between “d factoryjoe i can hear you” and “@factoryjoe ! i can hear you”. The latter would be visible by the sender's inner circle and the @recipient. But you're right, that part of the proposal is probably unnecessary. My goal is not to clutter up the system or invent new conventions; again, the bang was taken from Dodgeball (in form if not in function). The intention of this proposal was to make it possible for people with public streams to be able to have some kind of private tweet functionality without going totally private... you'll see in my next post how this functionality will make more sense in the context of Twitter channels. **[william](http://www.sugarattack.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 16:30:42 Because i just don't see a need to use both if one does everything i'd like it to do? I dunno :P As more of these social sites come it is starting to become a full time job just to manage them. It'd be great if either Pownce OR Twitter could adopt the distinguishing features of the other so I didn't have to update both. **[Kelly Sims](http://kellysims.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 16:54:54 I like the implementation of the bang, but I'm struggling with the "inner circle" part. I can see how instances such as Lane mentioned in your link would be very useful, but using closed groups feels wrong. This is something that needs to be addressed though, and I'm glad to see it being discussed! **[ted rheingold](http://www.spideysenses.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 17:04:36 Personally, I have always had my twitter status set to private, meaning I could never use any of the widgets or the like. My feeling was twitters were my message to friends, not followers or, strangers, or worse search engines and archives. I think a whisper option would be a \*great\* enhancement for to suppress the publicization (yep, I just made that word up) of the rare twitter that actually is just for my friends eyes only. Great idea! Regarding groups, I haven;t gone to the effort of setting them up on Pownce, but I could easily see having a group of indie rock friends, a group of electronica friends, a group of gag video friends. While I agree with Lane that exclusive circles of distribution are lame, my goal with Groups would be to not bore certain friends with certain topics. My biggest problem with Twitter are the all or nothing broadcast options and having to block people not because I don't like them but they message too often about topics that do not hold my interest .... Whew, I seem to have some feelings on this topic ;> **[Stephen Collins](http://www.acidlabs.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 18:11:11 I'll join the throng in agreeing that this idea has legs. The ability to effectively d an agreed circle of closer contacts is a compelling one. What this does, of course, is create the concept of a de facto group, pushing Twitter closer to Pownce in that regard. I don't think I've had Pownce open for around three weeks now, as an aside. But if you create one group, it won't be long until you want another or several more groups, so you'll need to do this: !workmates my boss sucks !drinkingbuddies more beer !family home late, have dinner without me This introduces another layer of complexity where you need to assign your followers to discrete groupings. I've barely done this in the new Skype release with my hundred-odd contacts. I have similar volume on Twitter as I'm not as well-connected as Chris who has the problem of cherrypicking over 600 people he follows to add them to groups. Also, with your #something for tagging or grouping you might get: #barcampblock !workmates this session rocks So, to everyone at BarCampBlock in the Group of workmates gets the whisper. I think both are awesome ideas, I'm just not sure how manageable they are going to be. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 21:01:34 @Stephen: you're going to like my next post. ;) I should have been more specific... you don't preface a groupname with the bang... you simply preface your message and it goes to that inner circle. You only get ONE. This is not Pownce's friend sets... this is not a heavy management feature. It **does not** follow that if you have one group of inner circle friends that you should be able to create more... that's what channel tags are for. ;) More to come... **[Fabricio Zuardi](http://idomyownstunts.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-25 22:10:56 I see where you come from, and I should probably wait for the next post regarding channels/tags/groups as well to tie up everything, but here is my impressions about the issue so far: The bang ! doesn't feel very natural to me, it sounds more like a command prefix than a whisper, like in !rot13 foobar /msg can work, or even (if you don't want to specify the recipients) /pvt or @friends (since twitter.com/friends is not an user) could work although it might be too much to type (the 1 character approach of the ! proposal wins here) some examples using this alternative: /msg @foo @bar can any of you guys bring me a coffee please? /pvt I am going to have ice cream with my kids on the place X, anyone wants to join? /msg \[work\] ok, who got my red stapler? this is not funny. I am currently using brackets with \[pt-br\] to my Portuguese tweets because it was what seemed right to me, like in a prefix on the subject of emails coming from different mailing lists, so this is what I use personally for grouping/tagging although the # is fine too... **[Amie](http://ebsq.livejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-26 04:20:22 And of course, I should have read this post first before posting on your # post. ::headdesk:: Carry on, carry on! **[Library clips :: Groups : Twitter, Pownce and Jaiku :: September :: 2007](http://libraryclips.blogsome.com/2007/09/03/groups-twitter-pownce-and-jaiku/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-02 17:00:28 \[...\] Factory Joe’s take on this is similar to Pownce, but you are only allowed to make one set for your inner circle. It’s kind of a catch 22, we don’t want to be flooded with all these replies (@) that don’t concern us (people you follow that are having conversations with others), but then if we have lots of sets, we will see heaps less replies that don’t concern us, actually we may only see replies that only concern us, this then lessens the eavesdropping, overhearing type of viral conversation that makes Twitter so unique. \[...\] **[The Pied Pipes](http://mypipeline.co.uk/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-04 12:19:40 What about just 'sh message-receiver message text in here...'? or w recipient etc? Also, I love Fabricio's \[group\] bracket idea. Although it's two characters instead of one (@group) it's different from the current @ reply Stephen's # tagging idea's a win too pipes **[yish](http://designedforlearning.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-31 15:15:12 Sorry, not convinced. 2 is binary, 3 is n. Twitter choose a binary privacy model. Your stream is protected or public, you tweet or DM. Crude, but simple and robust. Don't like it, use email, pownce, twine, facebook, or make your own. Adding "just one more level" is breaking the binary model. Why whisper and shout? what about a little bit louder now? I have many social circles, some concentric, some overlapping, some matter and anti-matter. How do I whisper to one circle and not the others? Or am I whispering to the union? the intersection? do I really need a course in set theory to use twitter? This is too much for a simple-minded bear. If you can't encode the full complexity of my social life, just leave it be, leave it binary, and let me deal with the complexities. Most people do it quite easily, using multiple accounts. The worst option is to attempt to capture social dynamics and end up with an autistic model. **[yish](http://designedforlearning.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-05-31 15:16:55 I should have said, though, elegant solution, nice engineering. ### Keynote Template for laying out iPhone apps URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/keynote-template-for-laying-out-iphone-apps/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:04.000Z **November 9, 2008.** I've updated my template to include the 3G iPhone and to support better layering on individual slides. Now available on [its own page](http://factorycity.net/projects/iphone-template-for-keynote/?ref=chrismessina.me).[](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1058437312/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Blake Burris](http://cocoaradio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) reminded me that during [iPhoneDevCamp](http://www.barcamp.org/iPhoneDevCamp?ref=chrismessina.me) I had created a simple [Keynote template](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/iphonetemplatekth.zip?ref=chrismessina.me) for laying out flows for iPhone apps, similar to the [approach](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/07/15/the-story-of-exphoneorg/?ref=chrismessina.me) I took in developing [exPhone](http://exphone.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) using a Keynote document to do the basic wireframing and page layout design. [Four states](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1058437312/?ref=chrismessina.me) come with this template, and can be seen in the figure above. Go ahead and download it and [lemme know what you think](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/contact?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- if this is useful. And, of course, you'll need [Keynote](http://www.apple.com/iwork/keynote/?ref=chrismessina.me) to make use of this. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[sylvia](http://bakakappuru.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-11 01:41:44 ok i can post on this one... the last post i couldnt post anything. but anyways, i was searching 'avatar' on Google images and i found your devil avatar!!! i was like, holy shit that's gotta be chris. try it yourself. anyways, how the hell you been? **[Membranophonist’s Ramblings » Reading at 160ppi](http://blog.wilsonet.com/archives/2007/08/16/reading-at-160ppi/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-16 19:40:03 \[...\] Prior to the unveiling of Books.app, a book reader for the iPhone, I’d begun working on my own design. I figured the iPhone would be fairly comfortable for extended reading due to the bright display and high pixel density (which allows it to render text closer to print quality). Thanks to Chris Messina for the Keynote template with basic iPhone images he posted. \[...\] **[Design for MySpace](http://www.designog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-22 09:05:02 The UI, landscape and the portrait are cool chris **[online shopping](http://www.factoryfast.com.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-23 23:06:29 I'm not sure I get it. Is this some sort of template you put on your own phone? When I click on 'portrait' or 'landscape' or any of the links it just shows me the same picture. I can't see if this is supposed to be some picture you can load onto your iPhone or what? If it's some iPhone template thing that's kinda cool, although I do like to try and be original. If I have an iPhone, then I have an iPhone. If I don't, then I don't. ### WordPressMU: Making a smart platform choice URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/wordpressmu-making-a-smart-platform-choice/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:04.000Z I recently engaged in an interesting discussion with a client about their choice of platform technology for their website and community build-out. Their current website is built in .NET and they're getting to the point where things are about to start getting set in stone in terms of scaling and overall architecture and it kinda freaked me out that they'd continue down this path using a platform that I think offers little when it comes to organic community-building or much in the way of "doing web things right". I decided I'd write up my arguments for switching platforms in the hopes that I might test my thinking and in the process persuade our client to move to a more community-forward platform.**Note:** For the sake of simplicity I'm using "platform" generically to indicate both a language and the frameworks and applications that are built on top of it. I'm over-generalizing when I say [**PHP**](http://php.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), [**Ruby on Rails**](http://rubyonrails.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) or [**Django**](http://www.djangoproject.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) since I'm also thinking about respective benefits like [WordPress](http://www.wordpress.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), integrated [prototype.js](http://www.prototypejs.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) [URL Dispatcher](http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/url%5Fdispatch/?ref=chrismessina.me) and so on, not to mention the communities that surround these and related projects. Just know that I'm not *only* talking about the language when I mention them by name.The conversation sprang from a discussion about building out a participatory community architecture... y'know, the standard stuff: regular posts, profile pages, friending, syndicating content, forums and a functional API. They'd been public a couple months, having spent most of their time on their content-creation tool and were finally ready to start investing in social features to encourage folks to share more content and engage with one another in the context of a nascent community. As such, the first question I asked the client was "Why .NET?" Now, I'm not a .NET hater or anything — in fact I'm quite ignorant of it save the brief stint of ASP programming I did a *looong* time ago (which probably no longer applies). But at the same time, from what I've seen and heard, .NET is simply not a web-friendly (read: *standards based*) platform for building a people-powered Web 2.0 community on. Instead, you need something agile and lightweight, something widely deployed, open source and for which there is a great deal of available talent who "get" the web, love the web and can role up their sleeves under tight deadlines and morphing design objectives and execute. In my limited purview, that is not my impression of .NET. So, the options that I suggested in place of .NET were Ruby on Rails, Django and PHP (mostly relying on [WordPress MU](http://mu.wordpress.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)). Let me explain how I evaluated and then dismissed all but the last option. **Ruby on Rails** is hot for a reason. It's an elegant language that's actually *fun* to program in. And it does a lot of the heavy lifting for you, leaving developer-designer hybrids to focus on meatier issues like feature development, user flows and the overall experience of an app. But it's also limited in its server-side deployments, fairly heavy in its server-side requirements and while there's a passionate community behind this platform, its denizens are pricey and few and far between. As well, due to its facility, many new developers claim to be Rails developers when in reality they're not seasoned with the realities and limitations of working in constrained or managed environments. This is a risk that can prove very costly unless you're working with experienced and dedicated developers. Given that the client is located in Miami where Rails talent is scarce, I felt that, while it'd be a great choice for a small technology-forward team who can afford to stay small and on the bleeding edge, the team needed something with a longer history, that's more widely deployed in typical hosting environments and for which there is ample available talent. **Django** is an interesting and exciting Python-based framework that's very well architected and [very fast](http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=python&lang2=ruby&ref=chrismessina.me). I heard that Rails-creator DHH wouldn't have developed Rails had Django existed a couple years back. In any case, Django, like Rails, takes a lot of the complexity out of development. But again, it's a situation where, soup-to-nuts, the fit might not be quite right given longer term considerations that don't always exist in independent web development shops — and given the same concerns that I expressed above about Rails. Both are excellent frameworks and you could correctly argue that [both of these frameworks require fewer developers](http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/archives05/2006/07/django-or-ruby-on-rails?ref=chrismessina.me#comment2), and shouldn't be evaluated from their respective community-sizes. But you'd still be tasked with finding sufficient and dedicated talent to support your choice on the server side and when that's not your core business offering, it's something of a distraction to struggle with hosting demands when you really should be building your product. When you're [37Signals](http://www.37signals.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) you're naturally going to attract (and retain) [top talent](http://gigs.37signals.com/?ref=chrismessina.me); when you're a new startup things aren't so certain, regardless of how excellent your software, vision or team are, and bringing in the right people is the hardest part of growing your enterprise. While I'd love to make a recommendation for one of these sexier frameworks, ultimately I'm going to recommend PHP and WordPressMU in this particular case. I've talked about some of the strengths of Rails and Django and for somewhat peripheral issues I've discounted both (not to mention completely dismissed .NET for similar and worse issues). I'd like to talk about why I think building a social network application in WordPressMU and PHP makes sense and how I came to this conclusion, keeping in mind that you should be comparing this list primary against .NET's offerings rather than the other two frameworks. - **Employment**. First and foremost is the issue of attracting experienced talent that also gets and respects the web. In Miami, you're going to be hard pressed to find .NET developers who don't have an enterprise background let alone talented Rails or Python developers. In contrast however, I think you'll find a lot of PHP and WordPress developers who would love to get into building a social network application. Call it a hunch, but I think the PHP folks will be more savvy to the issues present in building web apps than the local .NET types. - **Open source.** Part of the employment problem lies in the awareness and visibility of .NET developers. Since most have an enterprise background, little of their code is available to be downloaded, played with or reviewed. Furthermore, it's extremely difficult to gauge their strength with online communities or how they are to work with or how comfortable they are working in the open. Since WordPress and PHP are open source, it's much easier to get a sense for what someone is capable of simply by looking at the code they've produced in WordPress plugins and the like. - **Web standards.** From what I've seen and heard (take a look at [Channel 9](http://channel9.msdn.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and their table-based layout), .NET doesn't promote web standards or attract savvy web developers. It attracts programmers who are used to a Microsoft world with Visual Studio and form controls and generated code. If you download the [basic Community Server theme](http://communityserver.org/files/folders/themes/entry591715.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me) and peek inside, you'll see what I mean. Appreciation for web standards is an ever-more critical attribute of a mindful developer who understands that their work may end up being experienced in [environments they'd not tested in](http://www.apple.com/iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me). Adherence to web standards and open data formats can help mitigate both the cost and pain of the development of new web-based environments and platforms. - **Community.** You should choose a language or framework for the community as much as you do the language itself. While I agree with [Jason Fried](http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/archives05/2006/07/django-or-ruby-on-rails?ref=chrismessina.me#comment13) that developers should choose languages that they like to work in (as designers choose tools they're comfortable using) but I also think that it's important to choose technology based on the community support you're going to get by going in that direction. I have no experience with the .NET community but can say that my firsthand experience with the WordPress community has always been top notch. - **Economics.** I mentioned the issue of hosting and I think this is where WordPress really shows its value (at least for the near future). [Matt's](http://photomatt.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) made it a point that [WordPress is going to continue to be based on PHP 4](http://photomatt.net/2007/07/13/on-php/?ref=chrismessina.me) until there is a compelling reason to upgrade. Since PHP 4 is completely ubiquitous in both script and hosting support, it's easier to find hosts and sysadmins that are familiar with scaling and deploying PHP infrastructure. This keeps hosting infrastructure costs down as you can build out through commodity service rather than the more specialized hosting needed for Rails and Django. - **Scalability.** This one's highly contentious but I'm only going to draw the comparison here between scaling with the Microsoft tax and scaling without it. With enough technical know-how and hardware, you can scale most anything. The question comes down to how you want to *feel* when scaling. Personally, investing in Microsoft hardware freaks me out. I can't explain it, it's not rational, but it needs to be considered. - **Politics.** Let's face it, your choice of platform should reflect your politics, and I don't mean Red or Blue. I know that coming out in favor of WordPress is political speak; after all, it's a matter of opinion and not fact which framework is best. However, I think people familiar with modern web design would agree with me that WordPress/PHP, Django or Rails are all superior choices over .NET when it come to the politics of technology development. In terms of openness, being forward-thinking and in terms of community outlook, any of these choices are going to net you a very different kind of response. Being keen to what each choice says about you is key to making a wise decision. - **Buy out considerations.** This isn't something I usually put much thought into, but given the current environment, I think it's worth considering. The simple way to think about this is that *like attracts like*. Yahoo is a PHP shop — and converting from Rails to PHP — as Upcoming did — was probably a bit of a pain. YouTube is Python-based and given that Google is a primarily a Python shop (though they talk in all flavors) that probably played into the attractiveness of their technology. Now, I won't say that your choice of platform will ever make or break a deal, but I've just not seen a successful .NET buy out by the open source friendly incumbents. Unless you consider Microsoft buyouts. - **Functionality for free.** One of the great aspects of working in open source, of course, is the ability to reuse the work of others. In the case of WordPress, there are literally thousands of themes and plugins that you can use or learn from when building out your blog or site. Given that so many basic problems have been solved, it only makes sense to go with a proven platform known for its usability and ease of extensibility. - **An overall strategy.** I'm still a huge fan of Django and Rails -- in fact most of the other projects that I work on start out in one of these frameworks. But when it comes to building a social network with periodic posts being published in a blog-like fashion, it only makes sense to go with WordPressMU. I think this is a solid, lower cost way to move forward, with a higher likelihood of higher local talent and keeping up with the latest trends at the same time. Now that BBPress, WordPress' forum system, can be easily integrated into WordPress, there's yet another reason to choose WordPress. Lastly, I want to make a special mention of [ChickSpeak](http://chickspeak.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), probably [one of the first](http://photomatt.net/2007/07/12/wpmu-based-social-network/?ref=chrismessina.me) independent social networks [driven wholly by WordPressMU and BBPress](http://www.blazenewmedia.com/articles/chickspeak-a-wordpress-mu-based-social-network?ref=chrismessina.me) and a great example of what a WordPress-based social network might look like. I think there are a ton of lessons to be taken from this site, and I hope a great number of plugins that can be extracted. I'm eager to hear people's thoughts on this, though I won't be able to respond for at least three weeks as I'm literally headed out the door to Hawaii for like, my first evar vacation. Hopefully you'll keep things civil while I'm gone. Apologies in advance for any rambling or unclear language. And I should note that Drupal could also be considered for this purpose, but that it's lack of narrowly-defined features and interface makes it too much of a beast to coral into a finely-tuned and disciplined bloglike site. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **archgfx.net** ¡ 2007-07-18 19:27:20 > but that it’s lack of narrowly-defined features... that takes some serious acrobatics to try to turn that into a negative. i mean, i can't really get my head around everything drupal can do either, but i think that's a good thing for a platform, not a bad thing. for an application, that might be a negative, but to discuss them in those terms would break your metaphor. **[Calvin Yu](http://blog.codeeg.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-19 04:38:01 Great post and I agree with most of your points. I do question whether PHP resources are any less scarce in Miami though, especially if you factor in the level of talent necessary to modify WordPressMU into a social networking application (I have no experience w/ WordPressMU whatsoever, but considering that WordPressMU is after all a blogging platform and not exactly a social networking app, I would expect some non-trivial work would have to be done). In any case though, we're working in an era where you don't have to live in near proximity in order to work for a company, so the point is moot. The point which should really tip the scale should be Functionality for Free; if you can leverage WordPressMU so that it will cover a majority of your requirements, then going with WordPressMU is a no brainer. Probably one of the hardest parts of a social networking app is content management and customization, and if you can get that for free, you're more that halfway there. Out of curiosity, I trended the job market for PHP, Python, Rails, and .Net in Miami: http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=php+miami%2C+python+miami%2C+ruby+miami%2C+.net+miami&l= .Net is by a large margin the clear winner. However, if you exclude .Net, PHP is dominant. **[Eran Sandler](http://eran.sandler.co.il/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-19 04:38:20 Some of the things you said about .NET are a bit harsh and inaccurate. When you say .NET doesn't conform to standards what do you mean? Not using DIVs and Stylesheets? It doesn't by default, but from .NET 2.0 is has an option to do so. .NET provides heavy lifting - not all of which are code generated which includes transparent database access (not just MSSQL). It abstracts away a lot of things and provides you with a mechanism to componentify certain elements and make them reasonable with just adding one line to the ASPX file. I know you said you didn't distinguish between language and platform, but in the case of .NET it's important to know that all the things you were talking about are just ASP.NET (and possibly ADO.NET for database access). Regarding buy outs - Writely was written in .NET (or more specifically ASP.NET) and that didn't stop Google from buying them... Eventually, for the big guys, the value is not only in the code itself, because that is interchangeable. The value is usually the community since most of the cool deployment/server code/performance improvement are already used by them or they have the rightly trained and knowledgeable people to write this up. I won't go into one by one details as to why to pick .NET or any other platform/language since it's bound to escalate into a flame war :-) I'll just say that you should give ASP.NET (specifically 2.0) a bigger chance (combined with AJAX.NET of course). I'm sure that after that you'll be more knowledgeable to make this comparison again. While it will probably won't change your choice at the end, it will shed more light on .NET and ASP.NET. You also forgot to mention Mono which gives you the same functionality in open source running on Linux. While it is not yet there in terms of performance it will get there. **[Colin Devroe](http://cdevroe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-19 05:31:36 I'll have to come back to this when I have more time but other examples include 9rules.com which I was able to put together using WordPress and BBPress and also AnimationBlogspot.com which I created the infrastructure for with WordPressMU. I'll have more on this... just don't have the time right at the moment. **[David Kearns](http://davidkearns.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-19 09:05:29 I'm confused on how you can criticize a platform that you volunteer the fact you have little or no experience with. You can do ASP.NET without using a single Microsoft product in a fully open source environment. You can do ASP.NET as web standard or not as you desire. ASP.NET can do as much or little of the "heavy lifting" as you desire, and you can drill down and redo any portion of it you desire. There are multiple opensource code communities to support ASP.NET including a ton of code on SourceForge. As for the superiority of PHP and LAMP developers, I'd say there is just as much hackneyed crap in there as you can find in some Community Server themes. The main issue with relying on what is freely available on the Internet to build your skillset is you have no reference by which to judge the quality of the work that you are reviewing, and can learn really poor skills quite easily. There are coders I know, and respect, who have chosen Ruby, PHP, Python, etc. but I still enjoy to work with, and plan to continue, working with .NET as long as I can. And I have no Enterprise or ASP classic experience. **Gary** ¡ 2007-07-19 18:21:53 OpenID is not working on your blog. **[links for 2007-07-19 at Jason P. DeFillippo](http://jpdefillippo.com/blog/2007/07/19/links-for-2007-07-19/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-20 07:13:33 \[...\] WordPressMU: Making a smart platform choice (tags: wordpress wordpressmu blogging platform factoryjoe) Filed under links. | var blogTool = "WordPress"; var blogURL = "http://jpdefillippo.com/blog"; var blogTitle = "Jason P. DeFillippo"; var postURL = "http://jpdefillippo.com/blog/2007/07/19/links-for-2007-07-19/"; var postTitle = "links for 2007-07-19"; var commentAuthorFieldName = "author"; var commentAuthorLoggedIn = false; var commentFormID = "commentform"; var commentTextFieldName = "comment"; var commentButtonName = "submit"; \[...\] **[Michael Neel](http://www.vinull.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-23 11:21:50 Some .Net corrections (not meaning to take away from points on the other frameworks): ASP.NET 2.0 is XHTML and CSS 2.0; failure to use it this way generates warnings in Visual Studio. ASP.NET AJAX Client (JavaScript Libraries) are 100% Open Source (not shared, but true open) - they don't require anything but a webservice supporting JSON or SOAP. Visual Studio Web Developer Express is free, as in beer, and for commercial project development. The .Net CLR can run code written in C#, VB, JavaScript, Python, and Ruby. This is true of web apps (ASP) and think apps. ASP.NET apps with AJAX, can be developed very quickly. Take a look at the videos on http://asp.net to see what I mean. **[An Alternate Look at Platform Selection : Venture Chronicles](http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/07/24/an-alternate-look-at-platform-selection/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-24 12:27:12 \[...\] not often that you find such a remarkably well constructed discussion about making a platform selection that doesn’t actually have much to do with the technical \[...\] **John Roper** ¡ 2007-07-24 17:11:14 You are just MS hating. MS's slimy business practices aside, .NET 2.0 is just as good as the other platforms you mentioned. As for the community aspect I agree both the other platforms have a lot more "vocal" community. But are you building a business or trying to win a popularity contest? I would carefully consider the cost of a platform switch (particularly its impact on test and ops) before making any changes. Are you really delivering more value to the investor or just wanting to play with trendy technology? Also the statement "Adherence to web standards and open data formats can help mitigate both the cost and pain of the development of new web-based environments and platforms." seems like a lot of marketing BS to me. Do you really believe this? Channel 9's crappy table layout may be inelegant but it renders on every browser and your customers don't care if the website they visit is using floated elements or tables. Politics should have nothing to do with your decision. As the employee of a startup company you are building a business, not running for office. Some investor somewhere has entrusted you with a lot of money. And I guarantee that all that investor has in mind is a return on their investment, and not that you are hanging out with the cool kids. **[Martin Edic](http://blog.supernaturalagency.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-25 05:38:42 I'm not a programmer but I have to ask: why not use Ning and skip the whole process? **[Jerry Bowles](http://www.enterpriseweb2.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-26 13:40:07 As a non-geek I can't speak to the technical arguments here but I can tell you that I'm using a .NET platform (Blogtronix) for some client projects because it is an excellent blogging and aggregation platform with a number of standard community features (profiles, personal networking, ratings, bookmarking, etc.) already built-in. Reuters is using it for its new Reuters Interactive site (www.reutersinteractive.com) and I have a personal site that hasn't been upgraded to the latest version at www.socialmediatoday.com Maybe this is a non-techie way of looking at things, but shouldn't you always start the selection process with the software and platform that comes closest to doing what you want it to do out of the box? **[Haacked](http://haacked.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-27 07:16:49 I'd agree with you that at first ASP.NET reflected Microsoft's culture of not caring much about web standards, but a lot has changed since ASP.NET 1.0 and 2.0\. ASP.NET 2.0 has much better support for standards and tableless layout (look into CSS Control Adapters). Sadly, not every group embraces it at MS, but there are many developers on the ASP.NET platform who do embrace it. You shouldn't use Channel 9 as an indictment of ASP.NET just because that site uses tables for layout. Look into the "ALT.NET" movement in ASP.NET and you'll see there are many who do "get the web" on ASP.NET. At the time of this comment, for example, your site's homepage doesn't validate: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ffactoryjoe.com%2Fblog%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&verbose=1 Mine, built using an OSS blog engine with ASP.NET, does. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fhaacked.com&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&verbose=1 Of course, that could change at any moment if I happen to post non-validating comment. The point here is that in any system where a user can post HTML, it's challenging to support web standards. You can violate web standards in \*any\* platform, not just ASP.NET. **[Nik Cubrilovic](http://www.nik.com.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-02 12:26:00 "from what I’ve seen and heard, .NET is simply not a web-friendly (read: standards based) platform for building a people-powered Web 2.0 community on. " completely untrue. these guys should build in whatever they are good at.. **[The Dude Dean](http://claimid.com/thedudedean?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-09 07:47:29 The only two social networks I can think of using asp (not including a microshaft product) are orkut and youtube. Both were bought out by Google. **[Julian Harris](http://www.julianonsoftware.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-03 17:04:52 Re: standards compliance: one headache you have with .NET is that its controls generate lots of extra divs everywhere, and have accessibility problems. in the UK, accessibility requirements are law, and we've been burnt by this several times with clients recently, where .NET just refuses to budge on the issue. Which brings up my next point: closed source. I manage projects these days rather than code -- but in my spare time I code in Rails. It really is an odd thing not to be able to step into the library and figure out what the hell is going on. I've always, always been able to do that (Metrowerks C++, Java, PHP, and now Rails, with everything except runtime.lib back in THINK Pascal in 1990.) My poor team mates! My experience is that PHP is more widespread, but you can get less disciplined programmers, as PHP doesn't really encourage much in the way of, well, any kind of structure. One consideration is to advertise for PHP programmers who want to move to rails -- then you'd get the best of both worlds. But mupress certainly is a great product. ### The story of exPhone.org URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-story-of-exphoneorg/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:03.000Z At FOO Camp, we held a session on Green Code and discussed various tactics for reducing power consumption by reducing (primarily) CPU cycles through wiser platform decisions and/or coding practices. [](http://exphone.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)Somewhere in the discussion we brought up the impending launch of the iPhone and it occurred to me that there really wasn't any [substantive discussion](http://www.savannahnow.com/node/319188?ref=chrismessina.me) being had about what to do with the many thousands of cell phones that would be retired in favor of newer, shinier iPhones. Thus the seed for exPhone.org took root and began to germinate in my mind -- as something simple and feasible that I could create to raise awareness of the issue and provide actionable information for busy people who wanted to do the right thing but might not want to wade through the many circuitous online resources for [wireless recycling](http://wirelessrecycling.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). I had a couple constraints facing me: first, I needed to get this done [while Tara was traveling to Canada](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/06/29/in-montreal-geek-lunch-jazz-fest/?ref=chrismessina.me) as I wanted it to be an \[early} surprise birthday present. Second, I needed to get it done before [iPhoneDevCamp](http://barcamp.org/iPhoneDevCamp?ref=chrismessina.me) so I could leverage the event to promote the site. And third, I had other competing priorities that I really needed to focus on. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/825451207/?ref=chrismessina.me)I went about designing the site in Keynote (my new favorite design tool), relying heavily on inspiration from Apple's [Environment](http://www.apple.com/environment/?ref=chrismessina.me) section. I did a bunch of research and posted a lot of links to a [Ma.gnolia group](http://ma.gnolia.com/groups/exphone?ref=chrismessina.me) (in lieu of a personal set) and created a [Flickr group](http://flickr.com/groups/exphone?ref=chrismessina.me) at the same time. I of course also registered the associated [Twitter account](http://twitter.com/exphone?ref=chrismessina.me). As I went about developing the site, I felt that I wanted to capture everything in a single page — and make it easy for printing. However, I brought my buddy [Alex Hillman](http://www.dangerouslyawesome.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) into the project to help me with the trickier PHP integration bits ([his announcement](http://www.dangerouslyawesome.com/2007/07/06/exphoneorg-is-live/?ref=chrismessina.me)) and he convinced me that multiple pages would actually be a better idea — *not to mention compatible with my primary purpose of encouraging sustainable behavior!* — and so we ended up breaking the content into three primary sections: [Preparation](http://exphone.org/index.php?ref=chrismessina.me#prepare), [Donation](http://exphone.org/donate.php?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Recycling](http://exphone.org/recycle.php?ref=chrismessina.me). We riffed back and forth in SVN and things started to solidify quickly and we quickly realized that we should make the site more social and interactive. And, rather than build our own isolated silos, we decided we'd pull in [photos from Flickr](http://flickr.com/photos/tags/exphone?ref=chrismessina.me), bookmarks from [Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/bookmarks/tags/exphone?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Delicious](http://del.icio.us/tags/exphone?ref=chrismessina.me) and use the groups functionality on [Flickr](http://flickr.com/groups/exphone/discuss/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/groups/exPhone/discussions?ref=chrismessina.me). This meant Alex simply had to toss the feeds into [Yahoo! Pipes](http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/?ref=chrismessina.me), dedupe them and then funnel the results in a [SimplePie](http://simplepie.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) aggregator on our end to output the resultant feeds. It turned out that Pipes was, for some reason, not as reliable as we needed and so Alex ripped them out and ended up bumping up SimplePie's caching of the direct feeds. Alex put in extra effort on the Flickr integration side, creating an [exPhone user account on Flickr](http://flickr.com/photos/exphone?ref=chrismessina.me) and setting up [email posting to make it super simple to get your photos of your exphones on to the site](http://exphone.org/exphones.php?ref=chrismessina.me#howto-flickr). All you have to do is take a photo of your exphone and email it to *myexphone@exphone.org* with a subject like this: **tags: exphone, 'the make and model of your phone'** (yes, the make and model should be in single quotes!). We're kinda low on photos on there, so we'd love for you to [contribute](http://exphone.org/exphones.php?ref=chrismessina.me#howto-flickr)! Lastly, I've gotta give props to [The Dude Dean](http://claimid.com/thedudedean?ref=chrismessina.me) for his SEO tips. I'm typically not a fan of SEO, but I think when applied ethically, it can definitely help you raise your relevance in search engine results. We're nowhere in sight, but I'd love to get up in the [cell phone recycling](http://www.google.com/search?q=cell%20phone%20recycling&ref=chrismessina.me) results. I've written this up primarily to demonstrate an evolving design process (Keynote to HTML to SVN prototyping to iterative launch) and the use of existing technology to build a simple but rich web application. By leveraging web services via various APIs and feeds, Alex and I were able to build a "socialized" site will little original development where most of our efforts were focused on **content, design and behavior**. I also made sure to mark up the site with [microformats throughout](http://exphone.org/recycle.php?ref=chrismessina.me) making it trivial to [add the organizations I mentioned to your address book](http://feeds.technorati.com/contacts/http://exphone.org/recycle.php?ref=chrismessina.me) or reuse the data elsewhere. I like the idea of "disposable web apps" or "single purpose apps" that provide useful information, useful functionality or simply reuse existing materials in a novel or purposeful way. I'm also thrilled that Alex and I cobbled this thing together from scratch in a matter of three days. Yeah, it's not a long-term, high value proposition, but it was great fun to work on and is something concrete that came out of that discussion at FOO Camp. I of course welcome your thoughts and feedback and invite you to [add your own stories](http://ma.gnolia.com/groups/exPhone/discussions?ref=chrismessina.me), [links](http://del.icio.us/tags/exphone?ref=chrismessina.me) or [photos](http://exphone.org/exphones.php?ref=chrismessina.me#howto-flickr) to the site! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Dean Bairaktaris](http://claimid.com/thedudedean?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-17 07:53:11 Thanks for the props!! I hope your idea kicks off. **[Lloyd Budd](http://foolswisdom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-18 16:04:01 You are amazing! **[Joel Courtney](http://euphemize.net/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-18 21:34:39 Yup - I'd have to agree with you on the "simple little web apps" (as I like to refer to them). Great idea too (as I noted on the flickr posts about this) :) **[Gavin Bell](http://takeoneonion.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-30 13:54:15 Sweet Chris, I'm really pleased this came out of the session at foocamp. Lovely idea. cheers Gavin **[James Governor](http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-31 05:53:58 Hey Chris - we haven't spoken, except perhaps indirectly in twitter. I was pleased to come across this blog entry because i heard you had been thinking about Green APIs. A couple of us are looking to start something called GreenForge which would track and encourage green APIs and open source code. We don't know what that means in practice, to be honest, which is one reason we're keen to recruit some smart people to help us come up with an evil plan. We have a call this morning PST with one of the mashup web's key names. But you're on my target list. email above or skype me at monkchips even if you don't have time or the inclination to get involved, perhaps some of the others that shew interest at FOO would like to get involved? Thanks **[The Waving Cat » Blog Archive » exPhone.org: How to create a simple but rich web application in just three days](http://www.thewavingcat.com/2007/08/07/exphoneorg-how-to-create-a-simple-but-rich-web-application-in-just-three-days/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-07 08:33:14 \[...\] a simple but powerful single-purpose they did build. In his post he describes how they put it all together: By just pulling together information and resources from \[...\] **[Community Guy » links for 2007-08-17](http://www.communityguy.com/979/links-for-2007-08-17/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-17 10:24:11 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť The story of exPhone.org ….and the story behind the exPhone movement. That’s right, it’s a movement. (tags: iphone) \[...\] **[Suyash Sonwalkar](http://springsummerfallwinter.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-10 16:26:41 I recently received a Business Reply mail bag from Motorola in my amazon.com book order. Perhaps some similar program should be adopted by Apple or AT&T and a bag given with every iPhone purchase (or any phone purchase for that matter)... **[Keynote Template for laying out iPhone apps | FactoryCity](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/08/08/keynote-template-for-laying-out-iphone-apps/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-11-09 20:12:35 \[...\] I had created a simple Keynote template for laying out flows for iPhone apps, similar to the approach I took in developing exPhone using a Keynote document to do the basic wireframing and page layout \[...\] ### What is a DevCamp? URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/what-is-a-devcamp/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:02.000Z ![DevHouse + BarCamp = DevCamp](http://myskitch.com/factoryjoe/simple-math-20070712-145043.png) While the event is still fairly fresh in my mind, I wanted to take a moment to extract some of the elements that I think made [iPhoneDevCamp](http://iphonedevcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) such a success. I'd like to put down my thoughts on how others can emulate our model towards yet another extension of the community-run, grassroots-driven event known as BarCamp -- into a new style of event that shall be called *DevCamp*[\*](#footnote). You'll note that in the original [logo deliberations for iPhoneDevCamp](http://barcamp.org/iPhoneDevCampLogo?ref=chrismessina.me) I was very intentional about not including iPhone-specific artwork in the mark, instead choosing something more generic to the idea of building or construction. Fortunately [Louie Mantia](http://louiemantia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) pitched in and was able to help me refine some of the ideas that I had and we ended up with the logo above -- which you can [download in vector form](http://barcamp.org/DevCampLogo?ref=chrismessina.me). Anyway, getting back to the event itself... First and foremost, the event set out to capture the spirit of four successful event models before it: [**SuperHappyDevHouse**](http://superhappydevhouse.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [**BarCamp**](http://barcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), [**Mash Pit**](http://mashpit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [**Mac Hack**](http://machack.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). It helped a great deal to have had experience running those events before and we relied on our collective instincts to keep the event flowing and ensuring that the participants were both enjoying themselves and contributing to the overall atmosphere of the event. Equally important in the success of the event were the people involved. It was a rare privilege to work with such dedicated and passionate folks and I really can't say enough how much the model of selflessness [Raven Zachary](http://rinzai.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Christopher Allen](http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Dominic Sagolla](http://dom.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Blake Burris](http://www.blakestar.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Whurley](http://www.whurley.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), Jerry Murray and countless others portrayed over the weekend. First time participants eagerly volunteered their energies to improving the event for others in incremental but crucial ways. In all my experiences with BarCamps, DevHouses and DevCamps, the lesson is consistently that **these events are all about the people who come together *for* each other -- and go out of their way to improve the experience of their fellow campers**. It's truly remarkable to see, but I've seen it over and over again and I think it's at the heart of what's been called the "[Spirit of BarCamp](http://barcamp.org/SpiritOfBarCamp?ref=chrismessina.me)". iPhoneDevCamp was no different and carried forth a tradition that's come to define our community and the events that we host. Moving right along... An essential aspect of this event, like the first BarCamp, was implicitly [***"embracing the chaos"***](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2006/10/embracing-chaos.html?ref=chrismessina.me) as we like to say. The first BarCamp was organized in six days and catered to nearly 300 people. iPhoneDevCamp was planned in only three weeks and catered to nearly 400 (if not more). We were able to cobble together an incredible venue stemming from [a simple tweet](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/107534862?ref=chrismessina.me). We pulled in over forty sponsors who provided. When Raven originally put out the call to Whurley and me about throwing this event, we had no idea how it might turned out — and embracing that uncertainty and being transparent about our progress lead us to be open to the twists and turns along the way that ultimately resulted in an incredibly worthwhile experience. In fact, Christopher Allen's participation didn't materialize into much later into the event planning process. His [desire to rekindle aspects of the original Mac Hack](http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2007/07/iphonedevcamp-a.html?ref=chrismessina.me) that he chaired in 1993 lead us to step back and encourage Chris to take the reigns and bring his experience to bear. Sure enough, he did a fantastic job of guiding the [Hack-a-thon](http://barcamp.org/iPhoneDevCampHackAThon?ref=chrismessina.me) and presiding as master of ceremonies. He was able to deftly get people on the same page and describe how we were to work with one another and really join in the spirit of collaboration and learning. It was this aspect of **education** that I hoped would resonate most with participants — and that with an open atmosphere where no question was off limits, we'd see some really interesting and inspiring thinking about how to embrace the constraints of the iPhone as an opportunity palette — and to really push what might seem conventionally possible with just a cell phone with an internet connection and a web browser. I would argue that it was the imposition of **external and topical constraints** that lead to such enormous **focus and productivity**. I'd add to that the **utter necessity of having a widely diverse assortment of skilled participants** in attendance in order to be able to approach problems from multiple perspectives and skillsets and to not accept simple technical limitations as barriers to executing on a vision. As Kent Bye put it: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/764741058/?ref=chrismessina.me)Again, I think this underscores my point that [Diversity for the sake of Diversity](http://barcamp.org/Diversity?ref=chrismessina.me) is a good thing, simply because it enriches the fabric of the intelligence available for solving problems in new and unexpected ways. It's no surprise that [Tilt](http://www.xeodesign.com/tilt.html?ref=chrismessina.me), one of the favorite apps of the camp, was [developed by a small but diverse team](http://www.xeodesign.com/tiltstory.html?ref=chrismessina.me) made up of a [game designer](http://www.xeodesign.com/founder.html?ref=chrismessina.me), an [artist](http://www.gurudesign.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), a [couple](http://juixe.com/techknow/?ref=chrismessina.me) [developers](http://www.joehewitt.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and a [documentary filmmaker](http://www.echochamberproject.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). So the best design pattern that I would extract from this event comes, historically, from Chris Allen's experience at Mac Hack and deserves something of a brief retelling: On Saturday morning, the organizers were huddled in the ops room reviewing how to most appropriately award the incredible schwag [our sponsors](http://www.cocoaradio.com/2007/07/thank-you-spo-1.html?ref=chrismessina.me) had donated. We had a bunch of iPod and iPhone add-ons, a number of tchotchkes and other ephemera, but we also had a couple iPhones, a couple Adobe Creative Suite Design Premium packs and various other top quality prizes... but we wanted to make sure that we had an equitable way to distribute the prizes. We started brainstorming: "We could do a raffle." "We could have a hack contest for best app." Chris Allen broke into the discussion and told us that instead what they used to do at Mac Hack was reward participation and helpfulness. He proposed that staff get 100 or so total "special tickets" that we'd pass out throughout the event to people who were being the most helpful, the most constructive or generally contributing something to the event that didn't necessarily directly benefit themselves. These special tickets were the ones that would be used for the big prizes drawing — the iPhones and Creative Suites — and the regular tickets would be dispensed as people arrived as an incentive for sticking around for the entire event. By focusing on helpfulness and enculturating a spirit of coopetition, we avoided zero-summing the event by encouraging and refocusing energy on sharing, co-educating and building things collaboratively. Eventually people were having so much fun doing pure experimentation and hacking that they forgot all about the prize tickets... providing the perfect opportunity to swoop in and reward their participation. All in all, this approach worked extremely well and is a pattern, again, that I think should survive iPhoneDevCamp and carry forth into other such DevCamps. To bring this all together — what I'm most proud of out of this event is how it brought people together to solve (or at least hack on) some pretty challenging and vexing problems and to do so with utter abandon, wearing one's passion on her or his sleeve. It was an opportunity to learn in an open environment where diversity and raw talent were at a premium. There was no room for posturing or pretentiousness. And I think for folks not familiar with the camp community, like Michelle Quinn of the LA Times, [this was a novelty](http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-phonecamp9jul09,0,3989709.story?coll=la-home-center&ref=chrismessina.me) and not something that she's used to at conferences or events. And I think it's a testament to those involved and those who helped organize the event that we've set the bar exceedingly high for subsequent iterations. Like BarCamp and SuperHappyDevHouse before it, DevCamp offers a free, compelling, low-cost event model for organizing people around their passions. While there is already talk of subsequent iPhoneDevCamps, there is also interest in extending the model already. I'm excited to see how people can take this original design and stay true the values of openness, diversity, education, and the passionate pursuit of ideas and expertise.[DevCamp Miami](http://barcamp.pbwiki.com/DevCamp?ref=chrismessina.me) came before Raven's creation of the iPhoneDevCamp name. I believe Raven coined the name independent of the prior event but seems like a good idea to extend the name outward, while we have momentum. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Pierro Marie](http://pierromarie.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-13 01:08:23 Salut Genius blogpost. Fantastically described. Thanks for this detailed explanation **[Announcing WidgetDevCamp in Washington DC « Oatmeal Stout - Justin Thorp’s Web 2.0 blog](http://drinkingoatmealstout.com/2007/09/13/announcing-widgetdevcamp-in-washington-dc/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-13 03:19:36 \[...\] announce WidgetDevCamp DC. It’s another unconfrence, similar to BarCamp, but based off of the DevCamp model. There will be opportunity for learning and sharing about widget development, a time for widget \[...\] **[Will](http://widgetdevcamp-dc.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-13 05:44:31 This is a great post, Chris, we've been keeping it in mind as we plan WidgetDevCamp (in DC no less!). I'd love your advice as we put it together, btw, if you ever wanna chat via an appropriate channel... **[StickiWidgets » Explore Widgets at WidgetDevCamp DC](http://stickiwidgets.com/2007/09/17/explore-widgets-at-widgetdevcamp-dc/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-17 08:31:44 \[...\] not allow us to participate. That shouldn’t stop anyone else though… WidgetDevCamp is a DevCamp-style event in Washington DC for anyone interested in Widget and modular app \[...\] **[Damon Oehlman](http://distractable.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-09-15 21:35:07 Thanks for the excellent overview of what a devCamp is. Will be linking back to you post rather than explaining it myself in the next couple of days :) **[Announcing Open311 DevCamp | Open 311](http://open311.org/2009/09/announcing-open311-devcamp/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-09-30 11:01:17 \[...\] October 24th, The Open Planning Project will host Open311 DevCamp in their NYC office. This is a DevCamp style un-conference to coordinate a standard specification for 311 services. Washington D.C’s \[...\] **[Microformats | weblog | Developers’ Notes: microformatsDevCamp](http://microformats.org/2009/08/24/developers-notes-microformatsdevcamp?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-10-06 16:23:28 \[...\] the lessons of prior devCamps, the group proposed dozens of ideas and came together around 7 projects. Many of them ended up \[...\] ### My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/my-default-wordpress-setup-17-must-have-plugins/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:41:40.000Z [](http://wordpress.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)[WordPress](http://wordpress.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) is my favorite blogging platform and has been for a long time. It gets the basics right and never overwhelmed me as I grew up in my blogging experience. However, like Firefox, WordPress is also eminently extensible and makes it easy to both get more out of the platform the longer you're on it and the more plugins you add to customize your experience. Recently I took a look at the numerous WordPress blogs I maintain and decided to extract some of the best plugins I use across them. They range from spam management to reporting and stats to authentication and better overall functionality. Here we go: - [**Akismet**](http://akismet.com/?ref=chrismessina.me): the best comment spam protection this side of dodge. It fortunately comes pre-installed, though you'll still need an [API key](http://akismet.com/personal/?ref=chrismessina.me) from WordPress.com. - [**Clutter-Free**](http://txfx.net/code/wordpress/clutter-free/?ref=chrismessina.me): a simple plugin for customizing the WordPress composing interface. If you never turn off comments or worry about editing the slug, this is a handy plugin to keep things nice and tidy. - [**Comment Timeout**](http://www.jamesmckay.net/code/comment-timeout/?ref=chrismessina.me): I just started using this one recently when it turned out that 90% of my comment spam was showing up on older posts. This one's a life saver. - [**Diagnosis**](http://nlindblad.org/wordpress/diagnosis?ref=chrismessina.me): this is a really useful plugin for finding out information about the server that you're hosted on. Essential for debugging compatibility problems (like which version of PHP you're on). - [**FeedBurner FeedSmith**](http://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/help/wordpress%5Fquickstart?ref=chrismessina.me): Steve Smith originally wrote this plugin to make it easy to use FeedBurner for syndicating your blog and now FeedBurner has taken over its maintenance. Super easy to use and super useful. - [**Maintenance Mode**](http://sw-guide.de/wordpress/plugins/maintenance-mode/?ref=chrismessina.me): whenever I need to upgrade WordPress, I always flip the switch on this plugin giving my visitors a pleasant down-time message. It doesn't come with LOLCats out of the box, but you can customize it to be if you're feeling adventurous. - [**Share This**](http://alexking.org/projects/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me): [Alex King](http://alexking.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) creates incredibly useful plugins and this is one of them. If you want to make it easy for your visitors to share your posts on bookmarking or social network sites, this is the one plugin you need. - [**TanTanNoodles Simple Spam Filter**](http://tantannoodles.com/toolkit/spam-filter/?ref=chrismessina.me): [Matt](http://photomatt.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) is skeptical about this plugin, but I find it useful. Essentially you can blacklist certain words and this plugin will delete any comments found to contain those words, as well as pre-filter comments as they're being submitted. Whether it's redundant to Akismet or not isn't important to me — I need all the anti-spam kung fu I can get! - [**Trackback Validator**](http://seclab.cs.rice.edu/proj/trackback/trackback-validator-plugin/?ref=chrismessina.me): this plugin is part of a research program out of Rice University. I don't know how well it works, but I certainly have very little trackback spam since installing it! - [**Subscribe To Comments**](http://txfx.net/code/wordpress/subscribe-to-comments/?ref=chrismessina.me): unless you're a [co.mments](http://co.mments.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) or [coComment](http://www.cocomment.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) user, it's often a pain to stay on top of comments you've left on other blogs. Subscribe To Comments adds a checkbox below your comment box to allow your readers to subscribe to comment followups via email. - [**WordPress.com Stats**](http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/stats/?ref=chrismessina.me): like Akismet, this is another Automattic product. If you have a WordPress.com account, this plugin will gather visitor stats on your blog and integrate them with your WordPress.com dashboard. - [**WordPress Database Backup**](http://www.ilfilosofo.com/blog/wp-db-backup?ref=chrismessina.me): this one is also pre-installed by default and is recommended as part of the routine for upgrading WordPress. Every time you increment your install, you should do a backup with this plugin. - [**WordPress Mobile Edition**](http://alexking.org/projects/wordpress?ref=chrismessina.me): Alex comes through with another hugely useful plugin for converting your site to be mobile-phone friendly. I'm currently working on a skin for the iPhone, but for everything else, this one works wonders. *Highly recommended*. - [**WordPress Reports**](http://tantannoodles.com/toolkit/wordpress-reports/?ref=chrismessina.me): If the WordPress.com stats aren't enough for you, Joe Tan has written an awesome plugin that merges your FeedBurner and Google Analytics stats into a very readable page of infographics. - [**Wordpress OpenID (+)**](http://willnorris.com/projects/wpopenid/?ref=chrismessina.me): of course if I'm going to be running multiple WordPress blogs, I'm not going to want to remember multiple usernames and passwords across them. Instead, I use OpenID. [Will Norris](http://willnorris.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)' work on Alan Castonguay [original plugin](http://verselogic.net/projects/wordpress/wordpress-openid-plugin/?ref=chrismessina.me) fixes some bugs and update the JanRain library to avoid a number of compatibility errors. - [**WP-Cache**](http://mnm.uib.es/gallir/wp-cache-2/?ref=chrismessina.me): if you get any kind of traffic whatsoever, this plugin is a lifesaver, especially in spikes from Digg and elsewhere. Turn it off while testing but otherwise, leave it running. - [**WP-ContactForm: Akismet Edition**](http://www.bloggingexpertise.com/plugins/wp-contactform-akismet/?ref=chrismessina.me): I used [Chip Cuccio](http://chip.cuccio.us/?ref=chrismessina.me)'s [WP-ContactForm](http://chip.cuccio.us/projects/contact-form-ii/?ref=chrismessina.me) for some time but found that it was a bit too restrictive with its spam fighting tactics. I switched to this version, which uses Akismet rather than regex rules and have found that it's a better balance for me. So there you go. That's the list that I use for every WordPress blog that I start. I should ask: how many of these do you use? What's your favorite list of WordPress must-adds? Oh, and **bonus**! I start every theme I work on with [Sandbox](http://www.plaintxt.org/themes/sandbox/?ref=chrismessina.me). It's extremely flexible, fully classed (including native support for microformats) and now there's a [contest for best skins](http://www.sndbx.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) on until the end of the summer. Definitely a must-have for any new blog I work on. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Tom Raftery](http://tomrafteryit.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 00:17:47 Great post Chris, I'm curious about the comment timeout plugin, though. From your description, this functionality is already builtin to Akismet. Go to Plugins -> Akismet Configuration -> Check the "Automatically discard spam comments on posts older than a month" box. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 00:36:39 Great question Tom. The option you mention is great if you leave your comments open (and Akismet detects that those comments are spam) but my problem is that, by leaving comments open and not closing them, they act like honey pots, attracting spam that I don't want. Rarely are there comments on old posts anyway, so it's nice to have an automatic way of shutting off old comments rather than doing so manually. Akismet doesn't do that -- it only automatically discards old spam messages. **[Tom Raftery](http://tomrafteryit.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 01:12:27 Ah gotcha, so comment timeout closes the ability to comment on old comments? I misunderstood. I thought it was doing the same as Akismet and discarding spam comments on older posts. Sounds interesting. Although, I have several old posts which still attract comments (one on Hotmail, another on Western Digital, for example). I'd hate to lose the commenting ability on those posts. I love the WordPress.com Stats plugin. I hadn't come across that before. And Google Sitemaps is a must have plugin I think. Possibly one to add to your list. **[Alper ÇuÄŸun](http://alper.nl/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 04:25:51 Chris what do you think about plugin stability and upgradability. I have bad experiences with the quality of the smaller plugins both in stability and especially in the code. The only plugins I have a lot of faith in are those from Automattic. Adding seventeen plugins greatly complicates your site and increases the risk that stuff breaks. Not to mention the difficulties in upgrading your setup to the next Wordpress version. Having had problems with plugins in the past -a faulty one prevented the entire site from loading- we have adopted a policy of minimal plugins and using widgets for most page based functionality. **[Tris Hussey](http://www.larixconsulting.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 07:23:21 Chris, I recenlty discovered All in one SEO pack which replaced one of my previous metadata plugins. I'd also suggest FB Standard stats, which basically puts FeedFlare into your blog. Google Sitemaps...always helpful. Related Posts and the Sphere Related content widgets ... also important. Those are most of my core ones. I add Podpress if the blog is going to be used for podcasting. **[Avi Flax](http://aviflax.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 09:38:19 Great post! For some reason I thought that caching had been integrated into WP itself at some point, obviating the need for WP-Cache. I wonder how I got that impression. **[Kenton Good » Blog Archive » links for 2007-07-11](http://www.kentongood.com/?p=411&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 15:17:19 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins (tags: wordpress wordpressplugins) \[...\] **[Gary Barber](http://manwithnoblog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 19:26:38 Good post. Especially the WP-Cache plugin, just want you need when you are getting hammered. **[Steven James](http://www.blog-bee.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 19:51:24 Great post. I found adding google-sitemap-generator plugin takes care of the sitemap for google and that's a great help for indexing. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 20:46:46 @Tom: Fortunately Comment Timeout lets you override its global settings per post. No need to worry about turning off \*all\* old comment threads. @Alper: I think if you're choosey, you'll be fine. It really depends on what your host will allow in terms of server-side scripting. WP-Cache helps a ton... I've also been using these plugins pretty regularly without a problem. @Tris: great -- those are helpful. I don't tend to focus on SEO, but indeed, there are really helpful plugins for that. @Avi: not as far as I know... **[links for 2007-07-12 « xtra’s blog](http://xtra.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/links-for-2007-07-12/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-12 00:17:39 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins (tags: wordpress plugin blogging blog plugins list tips) \[...\] **[Shawn’s Thoughts » Blog Archive » links for 2007-07-12](http://blog.shawnlmorrissey.com/?p=381&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-12 00:23:22 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins (tags: wordpress) digg\_url='http://blog.shawnlmorrissey.com/?p=381'; digg\_skin = 'compact'; digg\_bgcolor = '#FFFFFF'; digg\_title = 'links for 2007-07-12'; digg\_bodytext = ''; digg\_topic = ''; Powered by Gregarious (39) \[...\] **[links for 2007-07-12 « Shawn’s Link Blog](http://shawnmorrissey.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/links-for-2007-07-12/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-12 00:27:28 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins (tags: wordpress) \[...\] **[links for 2007-07-12 « squarechick](http://squarechick.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/links-for-2007-07-12/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-12 04:49:01 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins (tags: wordpress plugins) \[...\] **[links for 2007-07-12 « toonz](http://toonz.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/links-for-2007-07-12/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-12 15:25:01 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins (tags: wordpress plugins list tips) \[...\] **[James Governor’s Monkchips » links for 2007-07-12](http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/07/12/links-for-2007-07-12/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-12 15:33:33 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins Chris recommends some WordPress plugins. Its a good list. (tags: wordpress) \[...\] **[Rob MacArthur](http://www.aquietrevoution.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-12 23:07:09 I've reached a point with my own blog that I know am committed now and I'm looking at improving it's use, reduce spam and improve the overall experience for myself/my readers - a few of those will definitely help. Thanks for sharing Cheers **[blog do valdecir carvalho » Blog Archive » links for 2007-07-13](http://www.valdecircarvalho.com.br/blog/2007/07/13/links-for-2007-07-13/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-13 03:21:18 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins (tags: blogging blogs design free guide howto plugin plugins wordpress) \[...\] **[Link With Reality Web Log » links for 2007-07-12](http://www.linkwithreality.com/blog/2007/07/11/links-for-2007-07-12/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-13 07:13:31 \[...\] My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins A quick highlight of useful wordpress plugins. (tags: wordpress software) \[...\] **[links for 2007-07-14](http://www.tomcarroll.org/2007/07/links-for-2007-07-14/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-13 20:22:05 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins Recently I took a look at the numerous WordPress blogs I maintain and decided to extract some of the best plugins I use across them. They range from spam management to reporting and stats to authentication and better overall functionality. Here we go: (tags: blog wordpress plugins blogging tips list) Tags: \[...\] **[ArtLung Blog » Daily Links](http://artlung.com/blog/2007/07/13/daily-links-152/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-13 23:21:19 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins (tags: wordpress webdev software php blogging) \[...\] **[Andy Wibbels » While You Were Out](http://andywibbels.com/post/1621?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-14 18:11:22 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins \[...\] **[Bieber Labs » links for 2007-07-15](http://www.bieberlabs.com/wordpress/archives/2007/07/14/links-for-2007-07-15/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-14 19:18:02 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins Recently I took a look at the numerous WordPress blogs I maintain and decided to extract some of the best plugins I use across them. (tags: blogging plugins wordpress software) Tags: \[...\] **[kĂźltĂźr sanat ve teknoloji gĂźnlĂź?Ăź » WordPress Kurulumunuzda Öntan?ml? Olmas? Gereken Eklentiler](http://geldik.biz/2007/07/16/wordpress-kurulumunuzda-ontanimli-olmasi-gereken-eklentiler/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-16 08:05:29 \[...\] yapamayanlardan. Hem de bizim için de çok sĂźper eklentilerin bulundu?u 17 maddelik bir liste olu?turmu?. Vee B?NGO diyorum çßnkĂź Tam 12′den \[...\] **[Ed Kohler](http://www.technologyevangelist.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-16 17:48:06 Great list. I'd add AJAX comments preview to my list, since it seems to help people verify links and formatting issues before they publish. **[7/17?links « (??????) ?????????](http://hellohullo.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/717%e3%80%80links/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-16 19:25:14 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins \[...\] **[correlate » Ten “Move to Wordpress Self-hosted” Tips - Part II](http://www.loupaglia.com/correlate/2007/07/16/ten-move-to-wordpress-self-hosted-tips-part-ii/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-17 05:22:48 \[...\] have readily available for you to take advantage of. Chris Messina at Factory City has a great post regarding the top plug-ins he will not launch any blog without. Like widgets, there are a lot \[...\] **[arghyle » Blog Archive » Quick Update](http://www.arghyle.com/2007/07/18/quick-update-2/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-18 10:34:14 \[...\] Wordpress plugins. - there are about 100,000 lists on this subject, but this one is one of the \[...\] **[Free as in Time » Blog Archive » Wordpress Wednesday 18/07/2007](http://james.schumann.ca/wordpress-wednesday/wordpress-wednesday-11-07-2007/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-19 11:18:42 \[...\] My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins - Another list of the plugins you should have. Recently I took a look at the numerous WordPress blogs I maintain and decided to extract some of the best plugins I use across them. They range from spam management to reporting and stats to authentication and better overall functionality. \[...\] **[links for 2007-07-20](http://www.funkeemunkeeland.com/2007/07/20/links-for-2007-07-20/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-20 00:21:15 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins (tags: wordpress plugins blogging blog plugin tips list) \[...\] **[crawlspace|media](http://www.crawlspacemedia.com/blog/2007/07/11/my-daily-links-2007-07-12/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-20 05:38:02 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins (tags: wordpress plugin blog tips list top10) \[...\] **[Vic](http://bu.bulicio.us/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-02 19:29:31 Thanks for such a great list of plugins, this list are so helpful for the new guy. Thanks Vic **[farida](http://bloggeholic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-16 11:52:29 what a great you list you have. I use most of them on my blog but I have to say th one that i could not do without is Akismet - It is brilliant and so easy to install and use. **[BloggerHolic » Blog Archive » How to Backup your Wordpress Site : How to Backup your Wordpress Site](http://bloggerholic.com/wordpress/backup-your-wordpress-site-120.htm?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-17 01:09:10 \[...\] This one is also pre-installed by default and is recommended as part of the routine for upgrading Wordpress. Every time you increment your install, you should do a backup with this plugin. \[...\] **[urlnetwork - WordPress - Top 100 Plugins - Part II - Lists](http://www.urlnetwork.co.uk/?p=22&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-02 18:16:02 \[...\] FactoryCity ? My Default WP Setup: 17 Must-Have Plugins ? Jul 10th, 2007 \[...\] **[BitBox Studio](http://www.bitboxstudio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-28 23:56:12 i'm actually pretty new to blogging....although i have experience with computers and such it's easier to get into it with help like this. thanks a lot. installed a couple of these today actually before i came upon this post so i know i'm on the right track....i will definitely install more from this list. question: are there significant loads on the server (more importantly the end user) depending on how many plugins one has on their blog? i mean, granted a lot are pretty small but...still....what DOES slow the loading of pages if anything? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-29 00:09:22 @BitBox: Welcome to blogging! To answer your question: yes, depending on the plugins you install, they may increase the load on your server. This is especially for true for plugins that are called when the page is generated and require any kind of just-in-time computation. I use a plugin called wp-super-cache to reduce server load since the plugin generates static HTML files for every page, greatly reducing the impact on the server for every page that's called. **[BitBox Studio](http://www.bitboxstudio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-29 16:42:31 chris: thanks! i'd think that if there are static pages being "rendered" as desired, would wp-super-cache do well for SEO and whatnot do you think? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-29 19:50:58 It shouldn't effect SEO really -- other than making your site more responsive when traffic arrives! :) **[BitBox Studio](http://www.bitboxstudio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-30 04:15:13 ok ok....that's pretty spectacular. all these people truly amaze me, giving out free apps to the public and whatnot. who thinks of this stuff? great. again, thank you for the post. I'll be going through your site in anticipation of other good information on this stuff. Thanks. **[BitBox Studio](http://www.bitboxstudio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-01 08:10:39 so i installed wp-super-cache....it made my site load AT LEAST 3 times quicker. Amazing. But does this mean that, depending on the cache expire time setting (1 hour default), that people will only see that version of the site? what if people leave comments on the site...wouldn't that slow down conversation and whatnot? if so, people who download that should keep it in mind if they plan to (or already do) have a lot of traffic and constantly changing pages. just a thought. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-01 09:47:44 Great news on the improved performance! ;) As for comments, the experience would be as it is here: depending on moderation, the comment should show up immediately, since a new comment will cause the regeneration of the page (as the content was updated). So, to answer your question, no, I don't think it should cause comment posting to be delayed. **[BitBox Studio](http://www.bitboxstudio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-02 07:33:07 wow.....ok. good to know. i heart the open source world...thanks again for all the info, chris. **[Jaki Levy](http://www.arrowrootmedia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-02 01:40:07 You missed one key plugin - CForms. It's one of the most essential plugins out there! A few other favorites - PingPress is also nice, as is Audio-Player. **[Anime Freak](http://www.animefreak.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-20 12:51:49 You can update plugin list for 2008 i think **[Blog Roundup for the 11th of July 2007 :: Christopher Ross](http://www.thisismyurl.com/blog-roundup/blog-roundup-for-the-11th-of-july-2007/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-10-26 17:48:27 \[...\] My default WordPress setup: 17 must-have plugins kept me interested. WLTC High Ground was neat. It was excellent to get a lot from The White Tree & The Jena 6\. It was nice to get a lot from WordPress to do ?proper? workflow. Growing Blogs is neat. As usual easy cheese is super. Take a look at perishablepress.com. \[...\] **[Proxy-Proxy.net](http://proxy-proxy.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-04-21 02:38:41 I tried the Wordpress mobile edition plugin. Didn't work even after several attempts.. Gotta find some help with it ! **[Bling](http://blingyou.net/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-08-23 17:04:58 Thanks, this was very useful. Coming from wordpress.com and moving into a hosted service, its easy to get lost in the wilderness of plugins :) **[Ibrahim Hudhaif](http://www.ihudaif.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-12-05 02:55:09 Thanks Chris, very informative post! I've struggled a lot by the spams but Akismet has solved and relieved my pain by filtering these rubbish spams! ### OpenID is for small business URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/openid-is-for-small-business/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:01.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/764750746/?ref=chrismessina.me)I've had this opinion for some time but felt that it was time to memorialize it: [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) is not only the domain of grassroots developers, but it also (and should be more so) is the domain of small and independent businesses. What better way to know and serve your customer than to be able to both identity who they are consistently and, where appropriate, hook up complementary services between sites through on uniform authentication experience? [Blinksale announced its support for OpenID](http://www.blinksale.com/blog/praise%5Fprops/102-openid?ref=chrismessina.me) today, only two weeks after 37 Signals upgraded Basecamp, their flagship collaboration app, [to support the protocol](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/479-basecamp-gets-openid-and-open-bar?ref=chrismessina.me) following [a successful trial on Highrise](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/332-highrise-early-stats-cases-for-all-the-new-solo-plan-and-more-disk-space?ref=chrismessina.me), their contact management web app. In the comments, Jason [pointed out](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/479-basecamp-gets-openid-and-open-bar?ref=chrismessina.me#comment%5F13571) that the Open Bar feature of Basecamp enabled by OpenID will eventually be present in all their apps, hinting at [how OpenID helps you better serve your customers across disparate applications](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/07/09/openid-on-the-iphone/?ref=chrismessina.me). I think that this is where OpenID will really shine -- where you can have web applications like Basecamp, Highrise, Harvest, Blinksale, Freshbooks, Pownce and others all working seemlessly together even if they're provided by different vendors, simply because they're able to treat you as the same person as you move from one to another. Screw big business adoption; the place where OpenID wins is with the little guys in small business -- and with the grassroots folks who are agile, who can move to adopt this technology and who realize that this is the best chance they've had to really start treating their customers like real people instead of isolated records in their user database like all the big guys have for so long. And I'm absolutely thrilled that business likes Blinksale and 37 Signals are starting to see this and turn this into a reality. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Alex Hillman](http://alexhillman.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-09 18:54:24 And while I'm commenting in the tangent of "one login to rule them all", and by "them all" i mean the myriad of small business webapps I use to run my business, I have to commend instances of OpenID like Basecamp. They not only allow you to log in using OpenID (eliminating the stash of user/pass for different accounts with different partners), but 37 signals went the next step and tied the otherwise disconnected accounts at their now common point: the OpenID user. Now, I can quick-switch from one basecamp account to another. In the future, how sweet would it be to have an OpenID based small business "dashboard" that gives you access to all of the apps you use...Basecamp, Blinksale, Lighthouse, Beanstalk...and elegant movement between them. Since most developers swift enough to be picking up OpenID now are also providing quality APIs, this could literally end up being a power-suite for people running businesses like we do. Now I got myself excited. **Mark Smallwood** ¡ 2007-07-14 17:02:00 This is definitely great news for small business. I also applaud the idea of open APIs to allow individuals/small businesses to create a dashboard of apps that work for them, in the workflow that works for them, rather than by way of some arbitrary big vendor marketing decision, which, in my experience is informed by committee-think rather than by usability issues. ### OpenID on the iPhone URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/openid-on-the-iphone/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:40:00.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/blake4tx/752106174/in/set-72157600707822201?ref=chrismessina.me)I helped lead a session on Saturday at [iPhoneDevCamp](http://iphonedevcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) on the topic of [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Oauth](http://code.google.com/p/oauth/?ref=chrismessina.me) (a new protocol a group of us have been developing) to a packed room of developers, designers and interested parties. My basic premise was that if you're going to be developing an application for the iPhone that has any kind of account or social functionality that you should dispense with creating yet another identity silo and instead make use of OpenID. Among the reasons I cited: - Safari on the iPhone doesn't have a password manager like [1Passwd](http://1passwd.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and won't be able to import all the Firefox passwords you've been recording for years. And, as mobile web browsers become more powerful, remembering web service account credentials will become more important (and more of a burden). Better to make it easy on your customers -- one OpenID url, one username and password. - if you've logged in with OpenID on a web service on your desktop or laptop and have set your provider to always allow you to login in automatically, logging in on the iPhone will require you to only login to your OpenID provider and then enter your URL once for every web service that you want to login to. This means that you avoid the challenge of invisibly typing in your password over and over on the error prone touchscreen keyboard. - The ability to cross-polinate authenticated data using a combination of OpenID and Oauth while remote will be increasingly valuable, especially if the expectation is that applications are going to be entirely web-driven. When you're dealing with desktop apps, you're operating off a harddrive with known permissions; when you're passing between web apps, the permission model is radically different and, just as when you go to check out from Amazon you always have to authenticate, developing patterns for this experience between web apps needs refinement. OpenID can help smooth out that interaction. [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/764903539/?ref=chrismessina.me)Lastly, there is work going on (okay, I'm doing it so far) to make the OpenID login experience on the iPhone (and elsewhere) trump any kind of old school login system available. This obviously needs a lot of work and new thinking (maybe instead of authenticating by typing a password you have to SMS a unique shortcode, etc) but I think your money should be on OpenID if you're going to be developing account-based web applications on the iPhone -- or -- generally. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Alex Hillman](http://alexhillman.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-09 18:47:51 OpenID totally makes sense for mobile apps, period. Less characters to input = easier use. Has there been discussion about if it is appropriate to use something like useragents to detect the requesting device and adjust the openID authentication mechanism appropriately? Whatever the mechanism is, it should minimize "keystrokes". I'm excited to see this evolve, it's just as smart as the "one portable login for every small business service I use". **[Joshua Peek](http://joshpeek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-09 19:38:39 I'm glad that OpenID already works great on my iPhone. MyOpenID keeps me logged in so I don't have to type my password and I just bookmark my OpenID enabled sites with my site, Highrise ex (https://josh.highrisehq.com/session?openid\_url=http://joshpeek.com/), and it automatically logs me in everytime. Great! **[Justin Thorp](http://oatmealstout.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-10 06:05:04 Cheers to your efforts! I hope that app developers will heed your advice and use OpenID on all their apps especially ones built for the iPhone. I have screwed up my password a bunch of times on the iPhone virtual keyboard. You essentially have to start from the beginning each time you screw up. **[tortilla](http://www.iphonetypingtest.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-10 17:19:51 I never really understood the usefulness of OpenID until now. Great article! **[Fading Roses & Raging Viruses » Blog Archive » What the iPhone means to WebDev](http://snyke.net/blog/2007/07/11/what-the-iphone-means-to-webdev/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 10:15:27 \[...\] extensivel, because we all know that writing on small devices is a real pain. There’s a great post over at FactorCity on OpenID & iPhone, which I think says it all.Popularity: unranked \[...\] **[Christian Decker](http://snyke.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 10:20:58 Besides a new push towards Ajax, I think that OpenID is definitely one of the major winner technologies with the release of the iPhone. Keep up the good work ^^ ### Why I'm involved in iPhoneDevCamp URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/why-im-involved-in-iphonedevcamp/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:59.000Z [](http://www.iphonedevcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)While I'm planning to write a lengthier piece about why I think the iPhone and its constraints are important to the future of the open web, I did want to take a moment and talk about my involvement in [co-organizing](http://barcamp.org/iPhoneDevCamp?ref=chrismessina.me#Organizers) this weekend's [iPhoneDevCamp](http://www.iphonedevcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) with [Raven Zachary](http://rinzai.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [whurley](http://www.whurley.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Blake Burris](http://www.cocoaradio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Dominic Sagolla](http://www.dom.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Christopher Allen](http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and touch on its relationship with [BarCamp](http://barcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and other similar camp-style events. In particular, I received questions about my involvement in the event and calling it a "camp" from [Jay Fichialos](http://www.fichialos.org/parsingborders/?ref=chrismessina.me) and Evan Prodromou, two BarCamp community members. I think that their concerns are valid and are worth answering, especially in public, as it gets at the line between commercial interests and community interests — and to what degree its okay to mix "business and grassroots" especially when, to date, BarCamp and the majority of \*camp-styled events have avoided most the trappings of commercial endorsement. Here's essentially what I told them: 1. For me, iPhoneDevCamp isn't really about the iPhone. Personally, I could care less about the iPhone. What I am interested in, however, is the opportunity that the iPhone affords to promote the development and building of open web technologies in the conspicuous absence of proprietary technologies like Flash, SilverLight et al. 2. I see my involvement as primarily to "keep it real", to provide contacts and facilitation and to weigh in on issues of commercialization of the event. I think I represent a conservative perspective in this regard whereas my fellow co-organizers are more open to various forms of sponsor involvement. My goal is to keep the vibe community-centric and make sure that the event remain true to the spirit of prior camps, putting the participants first above sponsors. 3. I like the idea of a productive and educational DevCamp model and would like to see this meme spread further. While this event is product-driven in name, I feel that subsequent events can morph into more product-agnostic events, extracting the base components of a "DevCamp" (part [DevHouse](http://superhappydevhouse.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), part BarCamp, part [Mash Pit](http://mashpit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), part [Mac Hack](http://www.machack.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) into something more general. As with other events that I've been involved with, the event itself is non-proprietary and is open for reinterpretation and remixing. I would love for this event to enculturate new thinking, new ideas and new appreciation for using open web standards, open web technologies like [microformats](http://microformats.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and other non-proprietary web design methodologies. I'm sure other similar learning possibilities will emerge, but what's important to me here is that the model of the DevCamp persist as yet another way for independents to gather themselves and self-educate. Now, to be clear, I certainly do not care to hype the iPhone any more than it already is. I don't own and iPhone and I haven't decided whether I will buy one or not. Still, I feel like its release provides a grand opportunity to shift the thinking on developing for the iPhone towards open web technologies. Given the work I've been involved with from Spread Firefox to microformats to OpenID, this seems to be an opportunity not worth missing, regardless of the commercial implications. The web will survive the iPhone and will be made better by it. To what extent that is true, however, is entirely in our hands. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[dotBen](http://benmetcalfe.com/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-06 15:07:04 I felt possibility for 'tension' but also agree with your points.... it's good to have got this out - especially pre-event so as not to engulf the event whilst it's there. I personally hope to see plenty of non-iPhone (but still related) dev stuff going one. Both myself and Tantek have stated we're going to bring along non-iPhone smartphones... What we really need to do is to build mobile sites that degrade gracefully and cater for all - not everyone is going to have an iPhone and all this talk of building 'iPhone-only' sites kinda scares disappoints me. If someone said they were going to build a "firefox-only" site they'd be laughed at - so what gives here? Anyway, I think it's going to be a great event and I'm looking forward to it. **[raju](http://www.openlaszlonaut.de/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-06 17:26:49 Hey Chris, I'd love to be there but it's too far from Munich. Two or three of the Laszlo folks will be around: Bret, our interface genius, Ben and Max, I guess. Have a great weekend. **[Raju Bitter » iPhoneDevCamp with OpenLaszlo](http://www.openlaszlonaut.de/2007/07/07/iphonedevcamp-with-openlaszlo/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-06 17:30:23 \[...\] this weekend. Would be a good chance to meet Chris Messina, again. Chris has something to say on the reasons why he’s involved with the iPhoneDevCamp, and it’s sure worth reading it. And yes, you can meet some of the Laszlo folks like Ben \[...\] **[Dave](http://www.am-3.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-06 19:51:30 As mentioned by yourself it would be best if people looked beyond the hype and into the potential of not just the iPhone as one product but what iPhone as a new tool for development. If people just develop products for iPhone users they are missing the millions of users throughout the world who potential will not be able to afford (or even use) this high tech gadget. **[Another blog bites the dust » Blog Archive » iPhoneDevCamp, iPhone, Safari and Microformats](http://eran.sandler.co.il/2007/07/07/iphonedevcamp-iphone-safari-and-microformats/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-06 22:45:11 \[...\] just read Chris’ post about iPhoneDevCamp and I think these are the right reasons to make the \[...\] **[Artificial Ignorance - Anand Iyer's Blog : SilverlightDevCamp - your thoughts?](http://blogs.msdn.com/aniyer/archive/2007/07/06/silverlightdevcamp-your-thoughts.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-06 22:54:31 \[...\] Today at iPhoneDevCamp, I chatted with Chris Messina to get his thoughts on possibly doing a SilverlightDevCamp. Chris is hoping the \*DevCamp series will take off : \[...\] **[SilverlightDevCamp - your thoughts? - Noticias externas](http://geeks.ms/blogs/roller/archive/2007/07/07/silverlightdevcamp-your-thoughts.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-06 23:36:35 \[...\] Today at iPhoneDevCamp, I chatted with Chris Messina to get his thoughts on possibly doing a SilverlightDevCamp. Chris is hoping the \*DevCamp series will take off : \[...\] **[iPhoneDevCamp update: Photos and Applications at iPhones in RTP](http://iphonesinrtp.com/?p=65&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-07 10:56:43 \[...\] take a look at Chris M. blog, one of the organiziers on the BarCamp/iPhone unconference came to \[...\] **[Why iPhone is game changing, and Bank technologists should take notice « The Bankwatch](http://thebankwatch.com/2007/07/07/why-iphone-is-game-changing-and-bank-technologists-should-take-notice/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-07 13:13:09 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť Why I’m involved in iPhoneDevCamp iPhoneDevCamp isn’t really about the iPhone. Personally, I could care less about the iPhone. What I am interested in, however, is the opportunity that the iPhone affords to promote the development and building of open web technologies in the conspicuous absence of proprietary technologies like Flash, SilverLight et al. \[...\] **[Weblog NWHP » De iPhone gaat het spel veranderen](http://www.blogmeister.nl/?p=58&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-08 00:56:28 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť Why I’m involved in iPhoneDevCamp iPhoneDevCamp isn’t really about the iPhone. Personally, I could care less about the iPhone. What I am interested in, however, is the opportunity that the iPhone affords to promote the development and building of open web technologies in the conspicuous absence of proprietary technologies like Flash, SilverLight et al. \[...\] **[tom](http://www.thememyphone.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-08 22:03:36 I also attended iPhoneDevCamp and had a great time. Everyone was very productive and very much involved with developing something. We will see some great apps come out of this.. Tom www.thememyphone.com **[BloomBurst » Blog Archive » Speaking at UT Open Source Conf; Sept 6-8](http://voxpopdesign.com/bloomburst/wordpress/?p=234&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-09 11:49:04 \[...\] has taken a huge step and made Flex a full blown open source project. Yes, Chris Messina can lament how Flash is an evil proprietary technology all he wants. Being able to build extremely powerful RIAs on an open source framework that just \[...\] **[iPhoneDevCamp wrap](http://blakestar.net/?p=24&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-11 08:46:23 \[...\] new iPhone owners. I think it was also a test for the extension of the Barcamp brand (as factoryjoe noted). Barcamp, for many, has come to symbolize the “unconference” movement; a way to \[...\] ### No sense of time URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/no-sense-of-time/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:04.000Z Walking about, I've lost sense of time. Just kind of meandering, aimlessly. Something gnaws at my fancy and I pursue it, without thought to ramifications, or at what cost. All things are equal, only some slightly more interesting than others. No responsibilities, only to follow my curiousity. When I went for this walk, I only brought keys and my phone (though I even reconsidered that choice along the way -- who needs a big chunk of plastic and silicon to go for a walk?). I didn't bring any money or bus pass or credit or debit cards. I have no portable means of economic exchange. If I wanted to eat, I wouldn't be able to pay for it, as I normally would. I'd have to resort to some other, perhaps now, more foreign methods of barter. But, at least I have time and my hunger's not so strong yet. I wonder if it's my sense of time and urgency that defeats me so often. I wonder if I flourish with non-paying work because my time is therefore limitless and free to be given; I can give as much or as little as I please, and it's still never too little or too much. It's simply what I gave. The expectations that time places upon one must surely be confounding and something of the make-believe adult world. I don't remeber being so concerned with time as a child, except when it was imposed on me. I guess the thing is, we spend so much time trying to get to something else, trying to hurry the pace of arrival, that we fail to exist or take for enjoyment the middle spaces, where we are really no where in particular but moving through time. Then there is really nothing to lose or to gain, but simply being in those tied-together moments, one coming ever-readily after the other. But there is surely something about time that is adult, and not just the obsession with ever-more-ornate timepieces. It's partially that you're, on the one hand, constrained and beaten down by all forms of time (for there are many many) and on the other, it's up to you, in some cases, to provide the freedom to youth to have time to explore... if not to *make* it for them. Still, there is something essential in escaping, if ever so briefly, the constructs of human kind that impose arbitrary walls and boundaries upon us. I suppose I should get going now, perhaps hurry up to the next thing. The exploration continues though and I can still find my way with no sense of time. ### Why I screenshot URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/why-i-screenshot/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:58.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photo.gne?id=551164347&ref=chrismessina.me)Three months ago, [Sarah Hatter](http://www.sarahhatter.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [asked me a question](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157600010186790/comments/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment72157600010528582) that I had intended on answering then and there. In fact [I did](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157600010186790/comments/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment72157600011775359), but I had intended to expand upon these thoughts in a longer post: > Actually, I take shot primarily for my own purposes -- research, learning and as a repository of interfaces that I can dig up later and imitate. If I had to go out an search for a specific UI everytime I needed inspiration, I'd be a \*much\* slower designer than I already am! This way I can capture the best of the web \*as\* I come upon it, when the moment of inspiration hits. I think this hints at [what I said the other day about cleverness](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/06/10/the-fried-henderson-and-the-value-of-being-clever/?ref=chrismessina.me): *she is the most clever who is the sum of everyone else's cleverness* (Ok, I didn't say that exactly, but that's kind of what I was getting at). On top of that, it's rather inefficient to try to "innovate" your way to the next big thing when most "inventions" are actually evolutionary improvements to what's come before. As if social networking and Web 2.0 was new! I mean, the version got ticked up from one-point-oh right? But that's not really what I'm saying. What I am saying is that I screenshot for history, for posterity, for education and erudition, for communication, to show off and, heck, for my own enjoyment. Call me twisted, but I really get off on [novel approaches to old interfaces](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/collections/72157600001823120/?ref=chrismessina.me), clever [disk images](http://www.flickr.com/groups/dmg/?ref=chrismessina.me) or [fancy visualizations](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/493415981/?ref=chrismessina.me). [Jacob Patton](http://trisignia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) once called me *the pornographer of Web 2.0*. Nuff said. Still, there is more to be said. For one thing, I don't screenshot *everything* that I see or come across. Just like my blog posts, I tend to like to write about things that are interesting to me, but that, if I'm going to share to the wider world, will probably be of some interest to other folks, one way or another. I never assume interest, but, y'know, I do try to make this stuff look good in the off chance that someone takes inspiration from something I've uploaded... as in the case of [Andy Baio](http://waxy.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)'s work on the [redesign](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/news/archives/2007/04/19/the%5Fnew%5F/?ref=chrismessina.me) of [Upcoming](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). According to his own recollection of his design process, he relied more heavily on my shots of the [Flickr-Yahoo Account merge](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157594509401453/?ref=chrismessina.me) than on any other online resource for figuring out how to implement the same for Upcoming. So yay? Go team! This is the perfect example of why my screenshotting of design patterns can be really useful for clever people. When other smarter people have already solved problems, and start repeating the solutions or interface in consistent ways, it becomes a design cow path. These are most interesting to me because, as the patterns emerge, we start to develop a visual language for web applications that can be used in the place of verbal descriptors like "[adding friends](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157594314791795/?ref=chrismessina.me)" or "[upload interfaces](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157600039492652/?ref=chrismessina.me)". Rather than speak in the abstract, we can pull from an existing assortment of solutions *from the wild* that have already been proven in place, that you can interact with, and that you can evaluate on a case by case basis as to whether any given pattern is worth emulating in a new design. I also screenshot as a way of in-between blogging, I guess. Y'know, like [Twitter](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me), [Tumblr](http://factoryjoe.tumblr.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Ma.gnolia](http://ma.gnolia.com/people/factoryjoe/bookmarks?ref=chrismessina.me), [Plazes](http://plazes.com/whereis/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Last.fm](http://last.fm/user/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me) (among others) are all forms of in-between blogging. They're where I am in the absences between longer posts (such as this one) where I record what I'm up to, what I'm seeing and what's interesting to me. My Flickr screenshots are probably more often than not more interesting than what I have to say over here, and certainly less verbose. And, most significantly, the screenshot is the new photograph, allowing me to connect through images of what I see with other people who are able to see things the *way* I see them. Imagine life before the original camera, where everyone's depiction of one another was captured on canvas in oil paint; before screenshotting became a first class citizen on Flickr, we were living in a similarly blind world, cut off from these representations of our daily experience. But fortunately, as of a few months ago, that's no longer the case: [](http://www.flickr.com/photo.gne?id=431050358&ref=chrismessina.me)And, following off that last observation, I screenshot for posterity. Now that this internet thing has caught on and it's been around a bit, it's fun every now and then to reflect and go back to the days of the first bubble and take a look at what the "it" shine was back then (now it's the "floor" effect -- formerly known as the "wet floor" effect -- but back then maybe it was the [java lake applet](http://www.ibdprince.com/java2.shtml?ref=chrismessina.me)?). Which is all fine and well, but once you start poking around, you'll notice very quickly that the [Wayback Machine](http://web.archive.org/collections/web.html) is way incomplete. And while Google's cache is useful, it certainly tends care more about the textual content of a page rather than how it originally looked. And that's where screenshots could make up the difference, just as photographs of real life offer us a way to record *the way things were*, screenshots provide a mirror in time into the things we see on screen, into the interfaces that we interact with and the digital communications that we consume (check out this [old view](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3598006/?ref=chrismessina.me) of the QuickSilver catalog compared with [its current look](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/551421949/?ref=chrismessina.me) or how about the [Backpack preview](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/7717439/?ref=chrismessina.me) or when [Gmail stored less than 2GB of email](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/8227061/?ref=chrismessina.me)?). I don't tend to think about the historic value of things when I shoot them; I do tend to evaluate their interestingness or contribution to a certain series along a theme. And yet, I'm curious to see, over time, just what these screenshots will reveal about us, and about the path we took to get to where end up. For one thing, web application development has changed drastically from where it was just a few years ago and now, with the iPhone, we're embarking into wholly undiscovered territory (where it's unclear if screenshots will be possible). But these screenshots help us learn about ourselves, and help us see the pieces-parts of our everyday experience. If I screenshot for any reason, perhaps it is to collect these scraps of evidence to help me better understand and put order into the world around me, to tie things together visually, and to explore solutions that work and others that fail. Anyway, it's something I enjoy and will probably keep doing for the foreseeable future. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Andy Howard](http://andyhoward.id.au/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-15 03:24:09 Yeah! I've frequently found myself digging through your flickr sets when I'm wireframing or designing... you've got quite the resource Chris. Sounds like I'm not the only one, and in fact I'm sure there are many of us - I've often thought there's probably a whole crowd of us flicking through your sets. Shot on dude! **[Calvin Yu](http://blog.codeeg.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-15 04:18:36 That's a great idea -- sort of like code snippets for designers. Shortly after reading this post, I found this: http://plasq.com/skitch Thought you would find it interesting, if you haven't seen it already. Calvin **[Leisa Reichelt](http://disambiguity.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-15 07:09:18 me too - I think it's a fantastic resource and I thank you for it quietly on a regular basis! for me it's the best way to get a quick handle on how people are doing things these days, from a design pattern perspective. thanks Chris - as Andy said - shot on ;) **[Frank 'viperteq' You](http://mekkawest.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-15 13:01:31 I too, thank you for all of the screenshots. It struck me yesterday while looking at your screenshots of Skitch and consequently the accompanying screencast, that this is the future of Mac UI that I'd REALLY like to see. The UI's for Skitch, DivX Player, Delicious Library, Disco, etc. all show a willingness to leap beyond the norm. Sure in the case of Disco, the devs caught a lot of flack (some of it from me) for not creating an app that does something useful. Some of my thoughts on that still stand for me. However, what has changed is that because of the leap and bounds progress of UI's from these various devs, maybe the various devs that DO create useful apps can take cues from the aforementioned apps and bring some much needed excitement to the Mac platform. Everyone's all ways saying that all the Mac needs to gain more mindshare and market dominance is that ONE killer app. Instead, I suggest that what the Mac platform needs is a whole cabel of apps using various iterations of these newer UI's so that devs (and Apple) can show the Mac as the platform for next generation, cutting edge applications. Imagine what the Mac landscape would look like if every app used effects like the DivX player or were nicely designed like Skitch and Delicious Library? Apps across the board employing ideas such as these would make the Mac platform more compelling and easier to engage. A lot of more traditional Mac devs would probably go on the warpath, but I think this is the evolutionary path that Mac devs should be traveling upon. **[John Manoogian III » Skitch is the Graphlex Speed Graphic of Software Bug Reports / Inventing What's Next](http://blog.jm3.net/2007/06/15/skitch-is-the-graphlex-speed-graphic-of-software-bug-reports/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-15 20:27:58 \[...\] someone asked Chris why he takes screenshots and amidst many words, he explained. I think it’s simpler. I think that Skitch (a screenshot \[...\] **[skitch me « quintal do xanato](http://maique.wordpress.com/2007/06/16/skitch-me/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-16 07:44:48 \[...\] e, finalmente, ele chegou, gracas ao sr messina, que fez o favor de oferecer uma centena. (tem aqui um post onde fala do facto de tambem ser um screenshot-dependente) (Uploaded with \[...\] **[Amit](http://www.amitgupta.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-16 11:45:40 I'm so glad you do it, Chris. I find more awesome mac apps (and occasionally web apps) via your flickr stream than any other way. Amit **[Julian](http://www.julianonsoftware.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-18 04:26:48 Another point I'm sure is that some of the screen shots are quite hard to get to -- they could be in the middle of an in-depth process, or have certain elements that are hard to set up. Chris what do you think of the extension of this -- video screencasts, of a similar nature to the screen dumps, with the primary objective being for capturing good interactive designs -- stills often don't do it justice. These screencasts would be small, and very short -- certainly no longer than 30s, and sometimes only 5s. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-18 14:57:48 @Julian -- man, I'd love to do more screencasts... the idea of mini-flows is a good one, and I'll have to give it more thought. My biggest issue with screencasts is how hard it is to get 30 seconds to look good... and then to compress it right for video. The beauty is screenshots is that they retain fidelity -- so you can literally get pixel accuracy for later use and reuse... Still, micro-screencasts is a cool idea! **[Cris Pearson](http://atariboy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-19 00:19:28 Hey all! I'm one of the creators of Skitch. I also used Chris' great resource that he has put on flickr (of which most were posted with Skitch) while designing mySkitch.com! I like the ying/yang feel of that :) Viperteq - Glad you like Skitch. We are certainly getting flack about the Skitch look too. I think in this case though, it is more about style than function. And I don't disagree, though don't hate it like some. I did the graphics, but I'm not happy with them yet. I'll have to work with another designer to get it where I'm happy. **[Teketen](http://twitternanoformats.wikispaces.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-19 04:57:42 I only do screenshots when something interesting/funny appear an can be deleted in a short period of time. :P **[AndrĂŠ Ribeirinho](http://blog.delaranja.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-26 10:33:45 Hi Chris, re the mini-flows, that would be really interesting. There just so little task driven sources of information out there. Regarding the flickr sets I must say they were one of my main sources while working on wirerframes for my projecto - adegga.com. Thank you for putting them up. **[wayne](http://www.wayne-sutton.com/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-05 20:10:31 Yep, thanks for the screenshots, you're my inspiration on the west coast. **[Jerry R. Reynolds](http://alimoethegeneral.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-23 21:46:38 I find it useful when I am responding to someone in a blog/facebook/myspace/... and it inspires and idea. The ability to grab the image, quickly write out what your idea/thought was and send it to the archive for later development. Chris, if you could shoot me a quick email where I could ask you some questions of this topic about several of the projects I am working on I would be grateful. Jerry R. Reynolds [jerry@alimoeinc.com](mailto:jerry@alimoeinc.com) **[Unit Structures – In-Between Places](http://fstutzman.com/2007/06/15/in-between-places/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-23 07:58:48 \[...\] morning, I was reading an interesting post from Chris Messina. In it, he talks about his in-between blogging behavior. Messina says: I also screenshot as a way \[...\] ### The Fried Henderson and the value of being clever URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-fried-henderson-and-the-value-of-being-clever/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:58.000Z I started off this morning with a partially composed blog post in mind owing to my reaction to a lengthy conversation I had yesterday ([tweeted](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/97805852?ref=chrismessina.me) for reference). For whatever reason it took me all day to sit down to tackle it, but perhaps I needed the day to stew over it in the back of my mind. The basic premise is this: cleverness is a huge asset when applied to constraint-based technological innovation and is probably the most necessary attribute that someone can bring to your organization today. Only the truly clever will avoid unnecessary reinvention at all costs to the point that, to the lay observer, this individual may seem like a downright lazy corner-cutter. Instead, cleverness is a honed skill that takes time, dedication and above all, a commitment to cultivate an appreciation for not only doing the least amount of work possible, but also the ability to pick the least amount of work possible that will *also* afford the most leverage in actually solving the problem. This is not trivial stuff either, and I'll tell you why in a bit. First, I'll identify [37 Signals](http://37signals.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)'s Jason Fried and Flickr's [Cal Henderson](http://iamcal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) as my inspiration for this line of thinking. Conversations with both of these guys has taught me a lot about the value of cleverness and its relevance in each their respective successes. These guys are ruthless; whenever I'm stuck hemming and hawing between potentialities, I always ask myself, *man, if I pinged Jason or Cal right now and asked what I should do, what would he say?* Well, after doing just that countless times, I'm pretty confidant, especially after yesterday's exchange, that I can now serve myself. I've started to use what I'll call *the law of minimal reinvention*. Or, to contradict myself and invent something new, maybe I'll call it the *The Fried Henderson Law*. The *Fried Henderson* is an approach to problem solving rooted in erudition, experience and a love of World of Warcraft. The trick is in seeing the opportunity space clearly, adding the right constraints (as many as possible), and then avoiding reinvention at all costs. More often than not, it's triangulating a solution: *what's the shortest distance between where we are now and getting to the pub afterwards to celebrate our success?* Or, to put it into *Fried Henderson* terms, *what's the least amount of work that I can do to satisfactorily solve this problem so I can get back to World of Warcraft?* Well, clearly, if you're going to not only get back to WoW but avoid additional interruptions, you're going to need to document your work. And, if you're writing your own documentation, as the 37 Signals guys do — *constantly* — you'll quickly realize the benefit of creating small and simple isolated solutions that can be reused as components over and over again, playing along with [Tantek's](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [Building Blocks](http://buildingblocks.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) model. Better yet, the most clever folks will resort to using existing applications and solutions built, maintained — *and documented* — by others, and — provided the licensing rights check out — will use the solutions of other similarly clever folks over needlessly wasting effort reinventing a redundant solution. Given the current state of the web, web services and the "mashup-*cum*\-widget economy", this is crucial and absolutely necessary to consider when hiring today. You *don't* need someone who feels compelled to prove him or herself by reinventing yet another AJAX framework; the candidate who searches Google for an existing implementation with documentation is the one you hire. This is the candidate that you want, the one that is resourceful, can get things done typically under or near budget and with probably fewer resources and less time than an equally qualified but overly inventive individual. To make it catch-phrasey, you want someone who essentially subscribes to the *Friend Henderson* dictum. So. For completeness I should point out that sometimes it's okay to invent something again. Or to solve a problem in a novel or more effective way given changes in the environment, attitudes or opportunity space (broadband, [reduced importance of privacy](http://www.utne.com/cgi-bin/udt/im.display.printable?client.id=utne&story.id=12562&ref=chrismessina.me), launch of the iPhone, etc.). There are also a large number of uninvented solutions out there (namely the ones that haven't been invented yet, in case my language yoo confooze) — for example, solving the [cross-domain social networking problem](http://adactio.com/journal/1298/?ref=chrismessina.me) (though some folks [are working on it](http://twitter.com/trisignia/statuses/93666372?ref=chrismessina.me) \*ahem\*). Or fixing drag and drop upload in the browser. Or getting people into the browser too. Etc etc. The point isn't to *not* be creative but instead to be clever, in a do-as-little-as-necessary way. There are so many great tools and technologies out there today with so little of their full potential discovered or exposed (I mean, had *you* thought of [using Google Maps for viewing panoramas](http://www.keepthebyte.ch/2007/06/view-panorama-photos-with-google-maps.html?ref=chrismessina.me)?! Neither had I!) that it's silly to consider reinventing existing infrastructure when others have already done your work *for* you! Do as [Jon Hicks](http://hicksdesign.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me) says and [be a creative sponge](http://hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/be-a-creative-sponge?ref=chrismessina.me) for sure, but also following the rule of *Fried-Henderson* and be clever in what you endeavor to create! If someone has already bothered to create a better solution and to support it, for shuck's sake, *use it*! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Tim Brown](http://tbrown.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-11 13:19:14 Makes beautiful sense to me. And the more you do it, the easier it gets. I've been slowly putting together libraries, processes, algorithms ... but have never articulated the method as you have here. It's exactly right. **[Ian Muir](http://ian.sundermedia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-12 12:19:27 Our dev team here is working with this philosophy in a slightly different way. Right now, we're completely rebuilding an applicaiton from the ground up. We've come up with an approach that will take a bit more time at the moment, but will free up plenty of time for WoW in the future. We're essentially just building a shell for our software that will make it really simple to add features with minimal effort. Hopefully it helps give me time to get my Hunter to level 70. **[Colin Devroe](http://cdevroe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-14 04:35:21 Agreed. Though I don't play WoW - I've always strived to avoid "reinventing the wheel". I've been known to say "Don't reinvent the wheel, make it roll smoother." Definitely not something that will be on the cover of a book - but the fact remains. I was wondering, about the documentation aspect. I used to keep a personal wiki. Call it, a personal knowledge base. I wish I could keep up with it, but - it only benefitted me. Any thoughts as to where this documentation should reside? If we're not talking about a specific project doc, but rather just "information" that we gather through our lives - should we document these things? Where should those documents go? Public? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-14 10:55:18 Colin, that's an interesting point. I know [many](http://termie.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [people](http://tantek.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) who actually keep public personal wikis -- describing ideas, thoughts, and to do lists... in many cases, in the hopes that others will come along and either offer to help out or simply offer existing resources that achieve the same effect being sought. This is kind of the "lazy web" approach to GTD: "ask and ye shall receive" or something like that. So, it seems your next step is to set up [your own wiki](http://cdevroe.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and get some of that personal documentation out in to the wild! It's not really about whether anyone will ever find it, but it certainly becomes useful when you can just point to pages on an existing wiki somewhere! **[Colin Devroe](http://cdevroe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-15 22:10:08 Good advice. I may just do that - perhaps we should create a joint one? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-16 15:35:33 Well, we should probably add to existing wikis, like Tantek's [Building Blocks wiki](http://buildingblocks.pbwiki.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Are there specific topics you'd like to record? Ironically, this would make for a really good web app... ;) **[Gregoire Japiot](http://claimid.com/gregoire?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-17 23:08:15 Thanks Chris! We've made a good \[ab\]use of this post during WineCamp as explained here: http://winecamp.cocoate.com/en/node/19 **[Creating A Universal Management System | Nollind Whachell](http://nollind.whachell.com/2007/06/13/creating-a-universal-management-system/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2014-10-04 19:36:01 \[…\] has a new post on his blog relating to cleverness. What stood out for me though was his mention of developing things that are \[…\] ### BarCampPortland and Pibb URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/barcampportland-and-pibb/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:57.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/495015709/?ref=chrismessina.me)I'm here in Portland, OR at their [first](http://barcamp.org/BarCampPortland?ref=chrismessina.me) [BarCamp](http://barcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- it's a great scene, but with a few differences. First of all, this is the first time a BarCamp has been held specifically in a [coworking](http://coworking.info/?ref=chrismessina.me) space -- in this case, an expansive collaborative environment called [CubeSpace](http://cubespacepdx.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Second, [Jay Fichialos](http://www.fichialos.org/parsingborders/?ref=chrismessina.me), the original camphead, is here from Dallas and has transcribed the complete calendar into a [great looking Google Spreadsheet](http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pbBLZuEJ-EgnwvqshP%5FjsQg&ref=chrismessina.me). Third, we're using [Pibb](https://pibb.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), a new online chat system built by Portland company JanRain, as the [event's channel](https://pibb.com/pdxbarcamp?ref=chrismessina.me). It seems to be performing really well for a new product and looks great. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like there are permalinks available for the transcripts, but I've put in a request to the developers who were on-site for such a feature. Otherwise, [Dawn](http://fastwonderblog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Raven](http://rinzai.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) did a fantastic job putting [the event](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/165468/?ref=chrismessina.me) together, there's been plenty of food, great conversations and an impressive turnout. Oh, and [Josh Bancroft's](http://www.tinyscreenfuls.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) Wii was definitely a welcome addition (even though Dawn [kicked my ass](http://twitter.com/geekygirldawn/statuses/61120252?ref=chrismessina.me)). Lastly, I'd like to commend BarCampPortland on achieving three to five male to female ratio of organizers... and yes, I mean that there **five** female planners of a total of eight. Attendance overall was still skewed towards male attendees, but the session that Dawn put on about *Collaboration in Communities* had a full 10 female participants -- and it was one of the best and most interesting sessions I've been to. Progress is slow, but with [increased awareness, continued vigilance](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/05/08/we-found-women-in-tech-so-why-are-you-still-not-reporting-about-them/?ref=chrismessina.me) and proactive inclusivity, I do think that the BarCamp community can continue to improve how it promotes, invites and [nurtures](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/05/08/this-is-the-kind-of-stuff-that-feeds-my-inner-gollum/?ref=chrismessina.me) a wider, more diverse, and more talented, community. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[CenterNetworks](http://www.centernetworks.com/pibb-comprehensive-communications-tool?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-13 17:38:44 **Pibb - it's not just a great soda, it's also a new comprehensive communications tool...**I was checking out on of my favorite blogs this evening.. that is the one of Chris Messina... and he had a review of BarCamp Portland. In the review he discusses a new comprehensive communications tool (CCT) called Pibb. Now I remember Pibb. My roomate... **[BarCamp Portland was Awesome « Fast Wonder](http://fastwonder.wordpress.com/2007/05/13/barcamp-portland-was-awesome/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-13 17:53:34 \[...\] I did a session on collaboration in communities, which seemed to go really well. \[...\] **[Pibb Is a Souped-up Chat Room Service](http://mashable.com/2007/05/13/pibb/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-13 21:35:02 \[...\] \[via CenterNetworks and Factory Joe\] \[...\] **Marc** ¡ 2007-05-28 02:48:55 On the page http://factoryjoe.com/projects/emoticons/ one icon is missing : the flag of the European Union. It does exist. Its code is : (flag:EU) **[Pibb Web Based Group Chat using OpenID](http://www.ehsan.mobi/index.php/2007/05/30/pibb-web-based-group-chat-using-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-29 16:40:10 \[...\] was reading this post at FactoryJoe where he mentioned using Pibb for online chat which is Built by the company JainRain \[...\] **[Bill](http://abetterplacetowork.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-01 10:49:54 Barcamp Vancouver >> at WorkSpace in August 2006! (sorry I'll miss you this weekend, out of town. Dane will look after you though!) **[Raines Cohen](http://www.raines.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-10 09:12:41 Chris, when you say "this is the first time a BarCamp has been held specifically in a coworking space," you're not crediting HealthCamp that was held late last year at Citizen Space! It may be the first "traditional" BarCamp in coworking, but it's certainly not the first \*Camp. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-10 09:19:19 Oh hey Raines, you're totally right! Didn't mean to discount HealthCamp -- but I guess my thinking was that it was more "incidental" that HealthCamp happened in our coworking space than BarCampPortland... but you're right -- I guess this was the second such \*camp at a coworking space! ### Thoughts on Mozilla URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/thoughts-on-mozilla/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:55.000Z [http://www.viddler.com/player/9af5f4d6/](http://www.viddler.com/player/9af5f4d6/?ref=chrismessina.me)You can now directly [download the video](http://www.viddler.com/explore/factoryjoe/videos/1.mov?ref=chrismessina.me) or the [audio](http://blip.tv/file/224928?ref=chrismessina.me).Spurred by a conversation I had today, I thought I'd post some wide-ranging and very rough thoughts on Mozilla. They're pretty raw and uncensored, and I go for about 50 minutes, but it might be somewhat thought-provoking. At the least, I'd love to hear your thoughts -- in agreement or vehement disagreement. Educate me! And, here are the basic notes I was working from: 1. the future of the web: silverlight, apollo, JavaFX -- where are you?? where's mozilla's platform for the future? 2. build tools. xul tools are in the crapper. look at webkit and xcode. 3. dump spreadfirefox; get your focus back. power to the people -- not more centralization. where's the college teams? run it like a presidential but stop asking for donations. events, mash pits... MozCamps... whatever... I know something is happening in Japan with Joi Ito... but that's about all I know about. 4. out reach... mitchell is out there... but i feel like, with all due respect, she's too coy... i think segolene royale -- who recently lost the french election set a very good example. 5. and, the press have no idea what mozilla is up to... where the money's going... there's work and a roadmap for FF3... but it's all about FF3. 6. joe six pack is not your audience. look at africa, non-profits, international audiences. green audiences. MozillaWifi... work with Meraki networks! Firefox + Wifi in a box. Bring the web to everyone stop being a browser company. 7. Mozilla the platform... stop thinking of yourself as a browser company. stop competing with flock. start promoting platform uses of mozilla and treat these folks like GOLD! think of joost and songbird. as Microsoft has done, build an ecosystem of Firefox browsers...! And build the platform of support to nurture them. Make it possible for people to build sustainable businesses on top of Mozilla... provide all that infrastructure and support! 8. CivicForge... like an ethical Cambrian House... the new sourceforge that works for non-developers... where's the mozilla social network? sure they're on Facebook, but it feels like a chore. 9. leadership opportunities... Boxely... microformats... openid.... start prepping web designers for HTML5 if that's the future. 10. IE has caught up in the basics. They have tabs. They fixed popups and spyware. Firefox as an idea can sell; as a browser, not so much. 11. Browsers are dead. They're not interesting. Back to Joe Six Pack... he doesn't care about browsers. He'll use whatever is pre-installed. Need to get Firefox on Dells.. on Ubuntu... on the Mac. Songbird too. OEM for Joe Six Pack. 12. Browsers are a commodity. People are happy with Safari, Firefox 2 and IE7\. What comes next goes beyond the browser -- again, Adobe, Microsoft and Sun are all betting on this. 13. mobile. minimo is used by whom? 14. Firefox as a flag -- as a sports team... rah... rah! where's the rebel yell? where's the risk? where's the backbone? Why can't Firefox stand for more than web standards and safety? I don't think Mozilla can afford to be reluctant or to pull any punches. They need to come out swinging every time. And be New York's Babe Ruth to IE's Boston Red Sox. 15. open source is immortal; it's time that mozilla starting acting open source. at this point what DON'T they have to lose? the world is not the world of 2005\. i want to know what the mozilla of 2010 looks like. we're blake ross? where's parakey? where's joe hewitt? where's dave barron? there's so much talent at mozilla... are things really happening? thank god kaply is in charge of microformats now. (but, firefox is NOT an information broker!) 16. lastly... great hope for the future of firefox, despite what sounds like negative commentary. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Timothy Diokno](http://timothydiokno.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 02:29:20 I didn't know somebody could talk like this about Firefox until now. LOL! **[Netanel Jacobsson](http://www.netaneljacobsson.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 02:55:53 Great post Chris! I think you got Mozilla spot on. I too really think that they need to get their act together. They have the people and certainly the money too. Mozilla start's looking too much like an AOL company - and that is not cool.. If you consider that Maxthon is only a 20 person team and has taken off like a storm without any big campaigns - just spread out of love from people to people and on a shoe-string budget. Mozilla must be able to do such much more. However, this is the problem with big organizations, or small movements gone big and mainstream like. Innovation falls back , people become comfortable and the kick ass attitude is gone.. Although I represent a browser built on "evil code" (as stated by some Mozilla zealots..) we are going platform independent. And we have a very passionate community and is not in bed with anyone.. Would love to pick your brain one day on a number of things. Again, great post! All the best, Net **[Chris Saad](http://www.particls.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 03:09:05 Insightful as always Chris... Well done. **[Joe Tao](http://taoofjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 03:57:17 hi chris! great vlog I am sure. but how do I download it? It is flash. viddler is flash, I thought your mantra was web open? flash is web closed as you notably mention in the first 5 minutes of this vlog. No really. I am at a hotel with terrible bandwidth and I would like to listen to all of this at my leisure without the horrible stopping and starting that I get with this wifi link in my hotel room. thx - joe **[Eric Skiff](http://clipmarks.com/clipper/ericskiff?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 04:24:34 Definitely a lot of interesting points here. Webkit from mozilla - XUL tools that make it easy to make the next songbird, flock, etc, would be amazing. **[Raines](http://www.raines.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 05:24:10 Alternate title: I'm in UR Browser, Debunkin' UR Strategy. **[Frank Young](http://7andacrescent.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 06:03:45 Chris, Part of the problem as I see it, is that Mozilla is trying to hard to be the opposite of what Microsoft is. The thing that everyone keeps forgetting is that Microsoft, as well as Adobe, Sun and Joyent, is a company. They pay their developers to innovate. Mozilla however, is still being run as if it's a small little project based out of someone's garage. It's hard for the few developers that are working full-time for Mozilla to constantly innovate because they aren't getting paid what they're worth and the Mozilla brass isn't providing them with the needed tools to win. Microsoft doesn't have to depend on a cadre of volenteers to test cross-platform support for their products. Why? Because they built a seperate facility specifically to house computers that run OS X (and Linux i suspect as well, but they'd never admit it). Mozilla at its' core doesn't have this type of infrastructure set up and they probably never will. Which makes your question about where the money that Mozilla has mad thus far, is going. Don't get me wrong: volunteering to assist with the development of Firefox/XUL is a good thing. I just feel that, if Mozilla REALLy wants to compete in this area of Web Development, then they need to start paying their devs a steady check each week so that they can get back to being innvative....... **[Alex](http://alexking.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 07:49:09 I really wanted to watch this, but every 3 seconds or so it pauses and takes 2-3 seconds to "rebuffer" - basically making the video unwatchable. **David Comdico** ¡ 2007-05-10 09:06:37 A lot to chew on. You've got your finger on the pulse a few latent movements, and how they will have quite large ramifications. Thanks for open sourcing your thoughts. **[Chris Brentano](http://fourone.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 09:08:06 I'd be happy to host a downloadable copy on my server if it's available. **[Ian McKellar](http://ian.mckellar.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 09:09:46 First of all, why does Mitchell only ever get compared to other women... Anyway, it seems to be officially announced that the platform is a low priority. Mitchell [said](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2007/04/the%5Fopen%5Fweb%5Fand%5Ffirefox%5Ffocus.html?ref=chrismessina.me) they have to: > Focus most where we have the greatest impact - Firefox and "browsing" broadly defined - that is, browser-based access to web content and applications Focus on the XUL platform that underlies Firefox to keep the Open Web competitive against closed/proprietary platforms Assist other Mozilla participants and projects, but not equally with Firefox and not at significant cost to Firefox Be exemplary Mozilla participants (this has historically been explicitly not doing whatever people ask for, but providing evaluation, review, module ownership, etc., with a focus broader than a single product) To me that list says that Firefox is their primary focus and other applications will only be take into consideration if they're not interfering with Firefox's development. That seems pretty lame to me. They've been building XUL as the best platform to build Firefox on and now that's policy not just an accident. So yeah, Mozilla Corporation is a product company with one product. Managing to focus on more than one product is hard, producing and supporting a platform is harder. On the outside, those of us who're building other products on top of Mozilla technologies are not considered first-class community members, even when we're working towards the goals set out in [Mozilla's manifesto](http://www.mozilla.org/about/mozilla-manifesto.html?ref=chrismessina.me). Ahh well, I've been doing this for six years. I'm used to it. **Robin Reed** ¡ 2007-05-10 09:31:32 Thanks Chris.......with open source software on a strong growth trajectory, with big budget IT shops coming back strong and investing in OS with more confidence, I'm not clear on where Mozilla stands, especially with tools on the Mac. Keep the heat on, please! **[Lloyd Budd](http://foolswisdom.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 10:33:49 Frank Young, I am not confident your assertions are correct. What are you basing them on? How many employees do you think Moz corp is? My guess without considering the details is that Mozilla is well over 100 employees + how many Google employees? **[Anne 2.1 » Blog Archive » Chris Messina, Firefox, and the Curse of Expert Ennui](http://annezelenka.com/2007/05/chris-messina-firefox-and-the-curse-of-expert-ennui?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 10:45:27 \[...\] Messina provides some raw thoughts on Mozilla in the form of a really long video (50 minutes!) and the notes he worked off of. You can get an \[...\] **Mark Towfiq** ¡ 2007-05-10 10:51:02 Thanks Chris -- appreciate the thoughts and I definitely think of Flock as promoting the Mozilla platform. **[Remarkk! » Teh Messina on Mozilla: After Firefox, Now What?](http://remarkk.com/2007/05/10/teh-messina-on-mozilla-after-firefox-now-what/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 11:31:33 \[...\] godfather, Mr. Tara Hunt and open web evangelist) has posted a lengthy, provocative and thoughtful video rant on the state of Mozilla, makers of the Firefox browser. In it he argues that Mozilla needs to stop \[...\] **[Colin Devroe](http://cdevroe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 12:52:42 This is great and although I'm not as close to these things as you, I definitely tend to agree with you about how Firefox should be "handled". Great stuff. To anyone having problems with watching Chris' video, please email me cdevroe@viddler.com as I don't want to do support in his comments here, but I want to make sure all of you are able to watch his video. If you are having buffering issues (and you know you have enough bandwidth to stream video) - I ask you specifically to contact me to let me know the details so that we can make the proper adjustments. Thanks! **DougT** ¡ 2007-05-10 12:53:07 chris, Minimo is not really being worked on by Mozilla Corp. There is a small list of people working on this project in our spare time. There are about 100k downloads per month with little marketing (other than my blog). I do agree that we have a long way to go and at ever opportunity we engage with our community to ask for help. How can you help us Chris? **[Global Nerdy » Blog Archive » Chris Messina’s “State of Mozilla and the Open Web” Rant](http://globalnerdy.com/?p=537&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 12:59:12 \[...\] the TorCamp crowd hang out to talk about anything and everything — sometimes even tech!): Chris “Factory City” Messina has posted a 50-minute video polemic about the state of Moz... in light of the challenges being presented by offerings such as Adobe’s Apollo, \[...\] **[Paul Stamatiou](http://paulstamatiou.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 14:56:34 I read/watched this late last night and knew this was going to make some waves. Some great thoughts in here Chris, I especially like the "stop being a browser company/MozillaWifi" point. **[GridLack » Blog Archive » links for 2007-05-10](http://ryanlack.com/2007/05/10/links-for-2007-05-10/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 15:31:11 \[...\] FactoryCity » Thoughts on Mozilla Chris Messina gets it. (tags: mozilla video strategy business) \[...\] **Michael Biven** ¡ 2007-05-10 19:22:30 Chris, Wow after watching your Mozilla video and the one a few days back on hAtomic I can’t help to chime in and also see where they both share a few points. It is the stuff (content, tools etc) that matters, not the browsers. This is one of the reasons why I'm so excited about the work being done on microformats and attention data, because it is focusing on the stuff and how people might actually and naturally use it. I believe that we're going to see a move away from the "client – server", "thin clients" and what ever other models there are to something else that won't fight against the way people use and do things with stuff, maybe a “person – stuffâ€? model who knows? But the other comment on hAtomic and how people will be able to create different views of a hAtom feed from a site I think is getting closer to what we will see in the near future. Things like OPML, APML, and other microformats will allow people to this. First thing I thought of when hearing your comment about middle management at Microsoft being scared of change was that I think Mozilla has become dependent of the IE – Firefox rivalry and is just as scared of change. For example of something outside the blog , Web 2.0 or web standards bubble look at the current real estate system being used to store and display listings online. After working with the local Realtor board managing their MLS system I was excited because that is a great example of stuff (real estate listings) that people use in their life and should be able to grab copies of it in formats that they can use with the tools they want, how they want and when they want. I saw this as a great opportunity to use uFs to make that happen, though I was having to pull along the established hoarders of information to explain why this would be a good thing. I'm working on other things now, but there are plenty of things like this that are waiting for people to champion a switch from inside their industry in the way their stuff is handled on the web. We already know the web isn't just for computers and your PDA anymore, but I feel people still think of it in that context instead of a way people connect with their stuff. And I think as this improves it will allow them to use these things in a more natural and productive way. Just look at the list below and see things that can already are will very soon be connected to the web to get access or share stuff. This is the reason why browsers won't be as important, but microformats, attention data etc will be. Mobile: mobile phones, cameras, GPS, remote sensing / monitoring tools, PDAs and laptops Office: computers, appliances (set-top boxes), phones (mobile & VoIP) Home: computers, appliances (set-top boxes), phones (mobile & VoIP), TV, game consoles. Don't get stressed out too much as I think we are seeing probably the greatest inertia shift in the web as companies, people and governments are figuring out that it is more than just a interactive form of TV on your computer or laptop monitor. And that is a bunch of inertia that is getting shifted; try to fight it too much and you will just end up getting tired. Michael B **[microformatique - a blog about microformats and “data at the edges” : IE.next, Firefox 3, operator, and so forth](http://microformatique.com/?p=147&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 19:44:49 \[...\] Chris Messina has some thoughts on Mozilla (only tangentially referring to microformats, but as with everything Chris writs, worth the read \[...\] **[Blake Ross](http://www.blakeross.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 20:30:19 "it’s time that mozilla starting acting open source. at this point what DON’T they have to lose? the world is not the world of 2005\. i want to know what the mozilla of 2010 looks like. we’re blake ross? where’s parakey? where’s joe hewitt? where’s dave barron? there’s so much talent at mozilla… are things really happening?" You know we're not working on Mozilla, so why are you asking where we are in relation to it? As for where Parakey is, well, we're working on it quite a bit. It takes time--unlike, say, making a video :) **Tom** ¡ 2007-05-10 21:07:25 Hi Chris - great points made. With respect to Mozilla as a platform to develop applications: this should indeed be the main focus for Mozilla. At TomTom we are using it to build our next generation of the TomTom HOME application based on xulrunner (over 1.5M registered users currently). This will add a very nice showcase example to the list of Flock and Songbird. Our main challenges with xulrunner based application development: resourcing (getting really good people) and tooling (IDE, automated testing tools). **Jeremy** ¡ 2007-05-10 23:22:52 Haven't seen this happening for a while but it's kind of funny it happens in the middle of your video ;) http://www.flickr.com/photos/mimizone/493376282/ **[Surf\*Mind\*Musings » WWW 2007 Papers Up](http://surfmind.com/muzings/?p=111&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 02:54:06 \[...\] like close to a dozen of these works use the Mozilla framework. In what world is the browser a commodity? Admittedly, the innovation cycle is at a low period, at least for mass consumption, but \[...\] **[Another Voice on the Future of Mozilla « CodeCorps](http://codecorps.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/another-voice-on-the-future-of-mozilla/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 03:09:30 \[...\] May 2007 Another Voice on the Future of Mozilla Posted by codecorps under Open Source Chris Messina thinks Mozilla should focus on the XUL platform and less on the browser. Anne Zelenka thinks \[...\] **[Scott Barnes](http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 03:16:18 I wrote something similiar i guess in 2006 now i work for MSFT some thoughts have changed, but the undercurrent is still there me thinks. http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/597.cfm **[MS MossyBlog : Thoughts on Mozilla: This guy is smart.](http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog/archive/2007/05/11/thoughts-on-mozilla-this-guy-is-smart.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 03:56:50 \[...\] found this little gem (via Ryan's blog, see his thoughts as well), about how this Chris Messina thinks Mozilla could \[...\] **[Home of KaiRo: The Mozilla Platform, Firefox, and SeaMonkey](http://home.kairo.at/blog/2007-05/the%5Fmozilla%5Fplatform%5Ffirefox%5Fand%5Fseamonk?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 03:57:47 \[...\] Mozilla Platform, Firefox, and SeaMonkey The recent discussion of the Mozilla platform is really interesting to read. The arguments go from \[...\] **[Messina’s Mozifesto at acidlabs](http://blog.acidlabs.org/2007/05/12/messinas-mozifesto/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 05:12:05 \[...\] Messina’s 50 minute video manifesto about where Mozilla ought to be taking itself is mighty impressive stuff. He’s obviously \[...\] **Steve Perkins** ¡ 2007-05-11 06:10:41 I think firefox will die, and be replaced by Adobe Apollo. But that's not a bad thing. There's no need to try to save it, or fight for Firefox. It's a choice, they exist to provide choice. And right now, Firefox is the best choice for browser, but soon Apollo will have a better browser, and it will be dead simple to write plugins. The XPCOM codebase is too crazy, and Adobe's simpler codebase will replace it without a doubt. I think that's perfectly fine. Yadig? **Richard** ¡ 2007-05-11 06:49:06 I'd be interested in helping with a Mozilla wifi project. How would I get involved? **[Mozilla as a Platform « OSS Blog](http://devastator.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/mozilla-as-a-platform/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 06:58:20 \[...\] by Devastator on May 11th, 2007 There has been many responses since Chris Messina’s video - Thoughts on Mozilla was posted. The video \[which you can now download as well\] would seem as the \[...\] **Rafael** ¡ 2007-05-11 07:49:49 put your money where your mouth is and help out. you \*quit\* working on spreadfirefox remember? So it's great that you can mouth off but if you're not willing to help out, file bugs, be active in spreadfirefox, what you say doesn't really matter. Criticism is good but this isn't helpful. More self promotion than anything. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 08:11:03 @Rafael: Just a point of clarification. I lobbied for **over two months** for Mozilla to pull me on full time as an *employee* to continue doing work on Spread Firefox. I couldn't continue at the level I was at as an unpaid volunteer and still get by, living in San Francisco with a full-time job. Chris Beard never got back to me about my offer to come on full time and subsequently went off with Bart to start Round Two, which later became Flock, because I felt that it would keep me close to browser development and the Mozilla community. Unfortunately, the politics between Flock and Mozilla were never good, stemming from prior grievances and so my vision of having Flock and Mozilla work towards improving the Mozilla platform and innovating in web browser design never came to fruition. You can certainly opine that I "quit" and that this is all self-congratulatory and self-promotional; it's good to get that kind of criticism, as I asked. But to imply that I walked out on the job is patently wrong; it was Mozilla who quit on me when I was just getting going -- otherwise I'm not sure exactly how you expected me to make a living giving away all my time to Mozilla for free. What kind of open source sustainability model is that? **[Corey](http://www.justsuppose.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 08:14:17 Amen brother! Another observation - it seems like half of the Mozilla leads and their top contributors work directly for Google. Seems ironic to me that things would be moving so slowly with Mozilla - given this symbiotic relationship with Google. Contrary to everything Google is about (on the surface). **Name** ¡ 2007-05-11 10:27:28 Yawn, as an FF user since pre v1, you sound like a loon. None of this matters to me as an FF user. I am not interested in the politics as most FF users are probably not either because it does not appear to affect this great product. I think you could waste your time on something more important. Wake up and take a look around the world. The politics of FF don't mean squat. **dnm** ¡ 2007-05-11 10:31:16 Who cares, Safari has nicer text/its faster and better CSS **[Chris Messina - Thoughts on Mozilla | \[Geeks Are Sexy\] Technology News](http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2007/05/11/chris-messina-thoughts-on-mozilla/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 11:41:04 \[...\] itemized list of Chris’s thoughts and a downloadable copy of the video are a posted on his blog. You can also watch the video \[...\] **[Slashgnu » Pensamentos sobre Mozilla](http://beto.getsuni.com/sg/2007/05/11/pensamentos-sobre-mozilla/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 12:24:54 \[...\] a noite Chris Messina, do Citizen Agency, postou, em seu blog pessoal FactoryCity, um video, Thoughts on Mozilla, de quase 1 hora com alguns pensamentos sobre o Mozilla/Firefox, a Comunidade Web e a Internet. \[...\] **[Viddler Development Blog » Thoughts on Mozilla](http://blog.viddler.com/cdevroe/thoughts-on-mozilla/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 12:40:57 \[...\] Chris does a much better job explaining this whole thing on his blog, I’d suggest you go there to get the full \[...\] **Johann Duerer** ¡ 2007-05-11 12:47:34 "stop competing with flock" - Flock shouldn't exist to "compete" against in the first place. It's nothing more than an over-glorified set of extensions that would have more of a following if it were actually packaged as such. **[Jeremy Ricketts](http://jeremyricketts.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 13:01:51 I did NOT intend to listen to this whole thing. But here I am at the end. I just wanted to comment that when you spoke about Mozilla towards 45:00 I turned away from coding and watched. Inspiring stuff. Sometimes it's hard for people to understand how we can be passionate about things like browsers and open technologies. **[The adventures of Coccobill - Opinions… because I choose. Always ! » Firefox as a Phoenix](http://tech.poglianis.net/2007/05/11/firefox-as-a-phoenix/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 13:58:28 \[...\] of articles that recently popped out on Mozilla. The one who hit me most was Chris Messina’s Thoughts on Mozilla, but also Alex Faaborg’s Web2.0 Expo presentation. I will certainly add more comments in the \[...\] **bustaa** ¡ 2007-05-11 14:17:28 Well u nailed it. Mozilla suck list : - Extension handling/repos ... no \_real\_ central up2date repository (which looks and feels professional!) - \_NO\_ inovation. Why not implement a \_REAL\_ bookmark manager instead of relying on dozens of half-assed,sh\*tty extensions (if ff3 gets SqlLite ?!) ? - Someone will sooner or later come of with a cross platform \_WEBKIT\_ based browser. Instead the "Mozila Foundation" \_BURNS\_ wastes money for crap \_!\_ Just take a look at the FF3 roadmap ... It looks like a joke ... **Asa Dotzler** ¡ 2007-05-11 15:29:06 Corey said: "Another observation - it seems like half of the Mozilla leads and their top contributors work directly for Google." Where did you \_observe\_ that half of the Mozilla leads and top contributors work directly for Google? Have you queried our source code repositories to see who has contributed code to Mozilla? Have you looked at patches submitted to Bugzilla? Have you looked over the Mozilla Module Owners page to see who the Mozilla leads are? Obviously not. Had you actually observed something, rather than just making shit up, you'd have seen that with the exception of Mike Pinkerton who owns the Camino project and Mark Mentovai who co-owns the Mac widget code, (neither of whom are paid by Google to do any Mozilla work) not a single Mozilla Module Owner works for Google. Had you queried bonsai or looked through patches at Bugzilla, you'd have seen that, with the exception of the Firefox Phishing Protection feature and some minor bugfixing, Google engineers haven't contributed substantially to Firefox in years. They certainly aren't "top contributors" and leads, as you've observed. The Mozilla community of contributors is large and there are people being paid to do considerable work on Mozilla at other companies (like IBM, Sun, ActiveState, and Adobe) but no one who has looked at the actual development of Firefox recently could say with a straight face that Google employees are top contributors to Mozilla. **Asa Dotzler** ¡ 2007-05-11 15:30:49 (Sorry, having problems posting in one go because of some bug at Chris' blog where it tells me: Precondition Failed The precondition on the request for the URL /blog/wp-comments-post.php evaluated to false **Asa Dotzler** ¡ 2007-05-11 15:31:28 Lloyd Budd said "My guess without considering the details is that Mozilla is well over 100 employees + how many Google employees?" Not a bad guess. I think we're at about 100 fulltime MoCo/MoFo contributors and zero fulltime (or even part time, as far as I can tell) Google employees. ------ Frank Young, as should be obvious from my comments here, Mozilla does pay people to work on Mozilla. We pay quite a few. We also have a non-trivial infrastructure. Can you name any other companies that ship annual releases simultaneously on three platforms across 40 languages resulting in an average of about 500,000 downloads per day? What other companies can you name that are supporting volunteers with hardware, software, internet connectivity and bandwidth, and travel? What tools should "the Mozilla brass" be providing to Mozilla contributors (paid and volunteer) that they aren't? **Asa Dotzler** ¡ 2007-05-11 15:32:06 Ian, I'm sure you all would love a free lunch, (Flock did too,) but that ain't how Open Source works or what being a member of the community means. Mozilla is not the "technology only" organization that it was in 1998 when Netscape was afraid of competition from a Mozilla branded browser. We are, and were well before Songbird (or Flock) came into existence, shipping consumer products as our primary focus. This buy-me-lunch expectation, that the rest of the Mozilla community is here to build the technologies you need for your product is just silly. Your company has resources (aren't you all Sequoia backed?) You're utilizing a huge chunk of resources previously developed and being developed by the Mozilla community. If Mozilla isn't fully the technology you all need it to be, then put more resources against those technology problems. The [mission](http://www.mozilla.org/mission.html?ref=chrismessina.me) of the Mozilla project is to preserve choice and innovation on the Internet and we're doing that with Firefox quite nicely: aggressively growing market share, forcing the 500 pound gorilla to improve its standards support and product usability, introducing new ways of interacting with web content, keeping users secure and their data private, supporting the 100+ million Firefox installations with regular security and stability updates, delivering new web platform features like canvas, 2 & 3-D accelerated graphics, JavaScript 2, off-line support and more, improving and adding new support for well defined, public, and free web standards, and building or experimenting directly with a wide range of partners to improve specific user experiences. We're doing all that AND making incremental improvements to the generalized Mozilla XUL application platform and you're here suggesting that Mozilla is failing at its mission because the bulk of the Mozilla community contributors aren't focused more on the needs of your commercial product? Are you kidding? Oh, and where are your contributors not being treated as first class community members. From a quick scan of patches attached by Songbird folks, it looks like you all are getting reviews as fast a most other developers on the project. I don't see any large number of newsgroup posts going without responses. Where are Songbird contributors being treated as second-class community members? Not getting a free lunch is not the same thing as being treated as second-class community members. ------ Chris Messina, as I said to Ian, no free lunches here. If you think Mozilla's mission is important, then put something on the line for it. And you don't have to be a full-time employee to contribute directly to Mozilla. Nearly 30% of Firefox 2 code came from part-time volunteers. The overwhelming majority, more than 90%, of the high-quality bug reports fixed in Firefox 2 come from part-time volunteers. Most of our downloads come from word of mouth and buzz generated by part-time volunteers and regular folk, outside of Mozilla-sponsored advertising or PR. If you really believe what you're saying, there are lots of ways you could plug in as a part-time volunteer. I realize that you probably think you're contributing by "starting" these conversations, but unless you're offering new ideas, it's really just a distraction. I, for one, don't see anything particularly novel here and don't see a new conversation emerging that wasn't already happening among people actually working to advance the Mozilla mission. **[Flash?](http://www.adobe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 20:44:59 It seems that the featured video is not viewable in any web browser -- without a proprietary plugin. What is it about Flash videos that makes individuals so reluctant to add direct URLs for downloading? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-11 21:17:32 @Flash?: You did see the [download link](http://www.viddler.com/show%5Fmovie!orgFile.action?movieToken=9af5f4d6&ref=chrismessina.me) directly below the Flash video, right? **L** ¡ 2007-05-11 22:39:35 Chris, you're mostly right. A more detailed response here: http://www.jinsync.com/?q=node/14 \~L **[Corey](http://www.justsuppose.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-12 06:57:37 @Asa, Why don't you tell me what you \*really\* feel? :) My (apparently incorrect) assumptions were that Ben Goodger and his team worked for Google directly. Lies damn lies I guess... -C **Asa Dotzler** ¡ 2007-05-12 12:03:42 Corey, yes, Ben Goodger and his team (not sure who that is, exactly) do work for Google. What I'm saying is that Ben Goodger hasn't worked on Mozilla seriously in years. He hasn't been the Firefox Module Owner for ages. **[Sethop’s Interesting Times » Blog Archive » Silverlight vs Apollo vs Ajax vs XUL vs JavaFX ? Good grief.](http://sethop.com/2007/05/14/silverlight-vs-apollo-vs-ajax-vs-xul-vs-javafx-good-grief/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-13 06:25:17 \[...\] activity by major players has caused a bit of a ruckus in the Mozilla Community, with Chris Messina arguing that Mozilla should focus more on platform (ie XULRunner) development to counter these moves by \[...\] **[All in a days work…](http://billy-girlardo.com/delicious/2007/05/11/links-for-2007-05-12/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-13 13:41:26 \[...\] Thoughts on Mozilla as Nike would say, “Just do it!” (tags: Mozilla) \[...\] **[John’s Blog » Blog Archive » leverage](http://john.jubjubs.net/2007/05/13/leverage/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-13 17:58:13 \[...\] what I like about Mike’s posts.)\] Or, rather, what Mozilla should do more of, do faster, do better. They’re all right, of course. We should do more, faster, and do it better. The criticisms in \[...\] **[Mozillas strategy is not up to date: Chris Messina sums it up and gets bashed (by some) | Webworkblogger](http://www.webworkblogger.com/index.php/2007/05/14/mozillas-strategy-is-not-up-to-date-chris-messina-sums-it-up-and-gets-bashed-by-some/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-13 19:21:37 \[...\] have seen the 50 mins of (helpful and friendly) Mozilla criticism by Chris two times now. First thing I had to do was to write a longish article for my German blog. Now its \[...\] **[David Bausola](http://zeroinfluence.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-14 01:17:47 I think Mozilla needs to take the conversation to the media industry. They need to be engaged in the conversations that define the future of media production; at present Adobe and Microsoft own that. And they shouldn't. I've written up a post here: http://zeroinfluence.wordpress.com/2007/05/13/rethinking-mozilla/ Great video though. If it's not a call to action, then you've just bashed one of the final nails into the coffin for Mozilla. **[Mozilland citizen worries at stream of bytes](http://diary.braniecki.net/2007/05/14/mozilland-citizen-worries/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-14 06:14:43 \[...\] Chris Messina strikes back. If you’re interested in the future of the web, this vlog is a total mustwatch. \[...\] **[Ian McKellar](http://ian.mckellar.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-14 10:13:29 @Asa, If Mozilla is a product company not a product + platform company that's fine. It hasn't been clear to external members of the community that that is the case until recently. I often feel that we've been misled about the resources that have been committed to XULRunner. Part of the amazing promise of XULRunner was that we'd all be able to ship our apps as a tiny XPI that would run on any computer with Firefox. This has been pushed out indefinitely. If we look at a 2005 roadmap we get: > Firefox will be one of the most critical delivery vehicles for Gecko and XULRunner technology in 2005. Fast forward to the present and the XULRunner roadmap says: > It is possible that Firefox 3 will be built on top of a "private" XULRunner (i.e. XULRunner will be installed in the Firefox application directory, and will not be shared with other applications). It has also been frustrating to see the Mozilla Corporation attempt to directly compete with community members. I know it's tough to separate the Mozilla Corporation's roles as a for-profit company and it's role as the leader of the community, but that's just rude. The Corporation doesn't need to refrain from competing with anyone building on Gecko/XUL, but if you've got someone already building an open source implementation of something (for example online photo management or social network integration) it's good practice to talk to them first. At least to talk to the developers. Otherwise you start looking like Apple or Microsoft. Personally I've had trouble getting patches looked at to the extent that I instinctively shy away from investing the time to contribute back. I know I need to battle that in myself (and I've committed to fighting this attitude) but when my patches aren't aligned with the product goals of MoCo (ie: it's irrelevant to Firefox) or technology goals (eg: patches to the RDF subsystem) they really tend to get ignored. **[e|vo.temporær.nova\*](http://temporaer.net/nova/?p=44&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-14 16:54:47 **Chris Messina: Gedanken ßber Mozilla (und die Zukunft)...**Chris Messina, ehemaliger Entwickler bei Flock and SpreadFirefox.com hat einen ausfßhrlichen und tiefgehenden Videomonolog seiner Gedanken und Sichtweisen zur Zukunft von Mozilla in einem absehbaren Netz der Rich Internet Applications vor dem Hintergr... **[Ian Hayward](http://www.glaxstar.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-14 16:58:57 Chris, What's your real point dude? Why now? Are you bored? - Ian Hayward **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-14 18:08:00 @Ian and the other MoFoCo peeps: why all the hate? Is the atmosphere in your vaulted tower depriving your brain of much needed humility? Not one of you have provided an extension to the conversation; instead you've provided either accusatory remarks or defensive tirades. One has to wonder -- whose side are you are on? I mean -- *bored* \-- do I *sound* bored? If you confuse concern with boredom, I can't imagine how you might treat passion... I've received a good deal of affirmative comments -- here and elsewhere -- in the past couple days. I don't think that I'm that far off base, even if my details are fuzzy. If you want to educate me on how things are from your vantage-point, I'm all ears and said so in the video; if you can't take 50 minutes of a concerned citizen rambling on about his thoughts on the organization's future, how are you possible going to meet that future with eyes wide open? **[Frank Young](http://7andacrescent.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-14 18:44:04 "Can you name any other companies that ship annual releases simultaneously on three platforms across 40 languages resulting in an average of about 500,000 downloads per day?" It is exactly this statement that shows that those in charge of directing Mozilla and presenting a clear vision of what Mozilla should be involved in and how to get there don't really know what they are doing. Your statement is only applicable to one product: Firefox. It's great that you ship annual updates across three platforms in 40 languages, blah, blah, blah, BUT firefox IS NOT the only application that Mozilla develops. There is no reason if you have 100+ paid devs as you claim, that development of Thunderbird and Sunbird should be as slow as it is. If you really have 100+ paid devs, then why is so hard for Mike Pinkerton and his team to get substantial work done on Camino (not bashing Mike here)? As Chris mentioned in his video, where is XULRunner, XULRunner dev tools? Where's [Tamarin](http://www.mozilla.org/projects/tamarin/?ref=chrismessina.me)? Mozilla can't possibly have the infrastructure that you claim it does or things wouldn't languish as much as they do. Of course, nothing always goes as you plan it, but the reality of the situation is that it is taking too long to get things done. This all goes back to my original statement: Mozilla isn't functioning in the manner that it should be. If Firefox is going to be the thing that Mozilla wants to focus on solely, then it should give up ownership of the other products/projects and quit trying to market itself as a platform. There's nothing wrong with being a one app company and no one would fault Mozilla for changing its' manifesto to more clearly represent where it is today. In fact, doing this would probably be easier on Mozilla as a company as it would lessen the amount of headache involved in getting things done. You say that Chris' post is no different than talks that you've been having internally. Well, as is clear from the many comments and outside commentary on other blogs, it's hard for us to believe this when we aren't seeing results. Sure, IE has improved (a little) and you've grown in market share...now what? Where do you go from here? It's clear in everyone else's head but yours that eventually the browser will become a non-important component to interacting online. If you aren't doing what's needed to meet that challenge, then you're going to get caught out there with your pants down and your head up your ass. Adobe gets it, hence Apollo. Microsoft gets it, hence Silverlight. Hell, even Joyent gets it releasing their own runtime called Slingshot. It seems like there's this big joke that everyone in the room is laughing at except Mozilla because it's flying over your heads. We're not trying to piss you off and certainly no one is trying to get a "free lunch". We all have as much of a vested interest in the wellfare of Mozilla as you do. We just want you to see that. Mozilla can't depend on Firefox forever. It's time to move forward or move over. If Mozilla isn't going to put anytime and effort into making things happen with these various applications and projects then release them. Let someone else take over the management and development of these tools/apps/projects. If Mozilla really wants to be a next-gen, forward thinking company then stop putting roadblocks in place that hinder US from helping YOU succeed. Just as Chris and others have mentioned, stop trying to compete with other companies/developers that are also building great apps/projects on Gecko and XULRunner. Flock is not your competition...it is an application that is meant for a different market than firefox attracts. Quit trying to implement features that are already implenmented/planned for Flock. Let Flock do what it's supposed to do and let Firefox do what it's supposed to do. Let Camino do what it's supposed to do. I don't think that many people see Firefox as a "Social" web browser. They see it more as a pro-level, business minded app. So let it be that and leave the social aspects to Flock. By both browsers succeeding in their respective markets, Gecko and XULRunner WILL get its' shine. Hire more devs. Stop depending on people to put in full-time work with no compensation. Give the devs a steady check and stock in Mozilla. That gives them a vested interested to see that Mozilla succeeds. You do this and I gaurantee that you'll see a huge productivity leap across all of the apps/projects that are under the Mozilla umbrella (ella, ella, a, a...under my umbrella..whoops, Rihanna was playing). I'm tired of seeing Thunderbird/Sunbird looking like third-rate apps from 1997\. I'm tired of reading in forums how un-finished the apps feel to the thousands of people who try to use them everyday. If you're going to be a company, then damnit start acting like one. How do you even hope to compete with Apple (WebKit), Microsoft (Trident) and Opera ([Presto](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presto%5F%28layout%5Fengine%29?ref=chrismessina.me))? These engines aren't just being used on the desktop, but across millions of handheld units globally. Just as Chris mentioned, why aren't manufactures using Gecko in their devices? My guess is that device manufactures aren't too confident that Mozilla will be around for the long haul or aren't impressed with Mozilla's roadmap for Gecko and XULRunner. Frankly, who can blame them? From what I see, I'm sure not impressed. **[Mike Beltzner](http://beltzner.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-14 22:22:56 Hey Chris, In case you haven't figured it out yet, blog comments lend themselves to reactive-type comments instead of thought out ones, based more on emotion. You spent 50 minutes basically telling "MoFoCo Peeps" that you thought they were totally missing everything, and you didn't do it in the most constructive manner. I can't believe that you didn't expect to bruise some feelings, and indeed, kind of thought that might have been the point; you did it to get a reaction, and you succeeded. Well played! I worry, however, that you don't read Planet Mozilla, and as such may not have seen some of the more thoughtful replies to your post: http://shaver.off.net/diary/2007/05/12/now-dont-take-this-the-wrong-way/ http://standblog.org/blog/post/2007/05/10/Responding-to-Chris-Messina http://john.jubjubs.net/2007/05/13/leverage/ I also asked you this over Twitter (but maybe you've stopped following me? I bet you get a lot of tweets) if you read the NNTP/Google Group "mozilla.governance", which is a good place to engage the people who are heavily involved in both the Mozilla Foundation, Corporation and Project in a discussion about your ideas. I'm pretty sure that people would be receptive. I was also wondering if you'd considered calling into any of the open, weekly project status calls. We'll even pick up the tab: http://wiki.mozilla.org/WeeklyUpdates I guess what I'm trying to say is: you consistently make it sound like "Mozilla" isn't listening, isn't engaging its community, and isn't open. That's simply not true. I know of no other organization about which you could do a 50 minute video critique and have it actually make as much of an impact as yours has had on Mozilla; indeed, the fact that it's made any impact at all reflects both the validity of some of your points, as well as the fact that we are listening with humility. Not from an ivory tower, but from the seat of our project and community; one that you can easily make yourself a part of, if you so choose. I know you make a career out of creating communities for profit, so it astounds me that you haven't even tried to actually bring any of these points up in the wide and varied fora that our community lives in. with love, mike **[Mike Beltzner](http://beltzner.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-14 22:30:16 Hey, as long as you're ranting, can you rant to the OpenID community about how it really blows that if I log in to OpenID to leave a comment on someone's blog, that entire comment gets lost? Thanks! (I'll try to recreate my comment, but it was really long, and I'm really annoyed about having lost it) **[Motorcycle Guy](http://www.cyclechaos.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-15 05:28:25 I definitely think that mozilla should focus more on applications. I think the success of the itunes store has shown that these types of things can be very successful if well thought out. **[::HorsePigCow:: marketing uncommon » How NOT to Respond to Criticism](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/05/15/how-not-to-respond-to-criticism/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-15 12:01:22 \[...\] humility and enjoys a good debate from time to time. That’s why I was quite surprised to see the responses by other Mozilla employees (and especially those who run the ‘community’ site, SpreadFirefox) to Chris’ \[...\] **[Nicolas Clairembault](http://www.nicolasclairembault.fr/2007/05/15/rflexions-sur-la-fondation-mozilla-sans-langue-de-bois/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-15 12:13:43 **RĂŠflexions sur la fondation Mozilla (sans langue de bois)...**La fondation Mozilla, si vous ne la connaissez pas, Êdite notamment le navigateur Firefox et la messagerie Thunderbird. Vous pourrez lire ici un ensemble de rÊflexions, suggestions et interrogations sur cette fondation. Parfois critique, mais souvent... **[Ian Hayward](http://www.glaxstar.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-15 13:16:00 @Chris hmm.. should I email or post here, its ended up being quite long, apologies for that everyone, but I'll post here in the interests of openness. No hate from me Chris, nor from anyone else that I've experienced, but you can't expect to sucker punch folks and expect them to say, hi Chris long time no speak thanks for that mate! I think Rafael is right it would be better for you to have offered some thoughts on the solutions instead of what could be interpreted as an arrogant way of “tell me if I'm wrongâ€? approach. Anyway, I kept my previous comment short as I did not want to provoke argument in your own blog posting. Nor do I want to now but here's the longer version of what I wanted to say. I think you have your own style, you deliver confrontational points in a very measured calm way, you know you can expect some people to think your doing this for your own publicity because many people won't understand why you don't just chip in and help out the project instead of standing on outside throwing stones. Well its a free on line world and that is your choice dude. I don't agree with everything you say, I think your too simplistic in terms of what has been possible to achieve in the recent time frame tbh, I do agree Mozilla could be seen to be doing more because in principle everyone and everything always can do more, but I think its doing a good job with the time its had to do it so far. Btw I don't get the ivory tower thing at all btw, I don't think you meant that your a laid back guy in real life. Like Beltzner said there are channels and there are ways of engaging in an open way and public way instead of lobbing the grenade dude. To offer you some clarity on my three questions in reverse order... What’s your real point dude? Why now? Are you bored? What I mean by are you bored, I mean, you sound like your looking for a fight or a challenge and seem to think the spark has gone from Mozilla because of the Focus on Firefox as a maturing product. I know Firefox promotion is not as urgent as it was in the early 1.0 days, but that is just the nature of the way things evolve, after the revolution comes order and progress right, not so exciting but necessary non the less. Sure it would be more exciting to be doing all the things you talk about right now, but, I don't think any of us could realistically say that not having the tools in our hands right now is a shortcoming, I mean come on its still early days dude. You like the fun of the chase, you like new things, you always move on after the first battle is won, thats ok, different people have different styles, yours is one that wants to shout out the next war cry but listen there's just work that needs to be done to keep steadily and incrementally focussing on the browsing experience, Mozilla has been hugely successful and its make sense to continue that success, it is what fuels its survival. No one seems to take time out to think that one through enough. To diversify its focus too soon would be a mistake, maybe around ..hang on... nearly there..... now!...... is about the time that Mozilla could start to think about what comes next, but I think its not fair to say that its a failing not to have any other major success other than Firefox right now. By “why nowâ€?, I mean simply is this part of the kick Mozilla for wanting to focus on Firefox instead of XUL runner thing that so many are unhappy about right now, you catching a wave here? You say you have been thinking about these things for a while, I'm curious what the nature of the IM was you spoke about, its seemed to have galvanised your thoughts somewhat, none of my business but it may be helpful for viewers to understand this context. By “whats your real point?â€? I mean is this a closure piece from you on Mozilla, your feelings and a goodbye and good luck to the projects cause. Or, is this your way of saying, hey, I want to re-engage in a bigger way and get back in the trenches? Or thirdly is this the start of a war cry to polarize opinion and see if there are enough people to start something new? In terms of offering conversation, about Spread Firefox. I recall that you were calling for it to end and you thought it had run its cause way back in the day you left almost two years ago, so your saying it now is no surprise to me now. We've been recently working on a Drupal 5.x upgrade build of the site and have written a whole new bespoke project module in order for the new roll out to enable members to manage their own action orientated projects, its all staged and almost ready to go. Btw If you take a look on the site you would have seen that CBeard has posted that Mozilla intend to re invigorate the site with an open-marketing approach and the site will become far more action orientated again, the site is about to deliver some very cool things and its far from finished imho. Ian **[Messina and Firefox](http://eaves.ca/2007/05/15/messina-and-firefox/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-15 16:27:38 \[...\] So I know I’m late to the party but wanted to contribute some thoughts to the Messina debate on Mozilla. \[...\] **[Next Generation Internet » Mozilla Bang by Chris Messina](http://sixx.se/nextgen/2007/05/16/mozilla-bang-by-chris-messina/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-16 04:58:14 \[...\] även kommentarna till Chris post och även hos (hans tjej) Tara Hunt. Münga kända har kastat sig in i \[...\] **[John’s Blog » Blog Archive » hearts on sleeves](http://john.jubjubs.net/2007/05/16/hearts-on-sleeves/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-16 09:38:08 \[...\] It’s been an interesting week in the Mozilla blogosphere. So much conversation, explanation, accusation, retraction, questioning, talking, talking, talking. One of the clear examples of the leverage that I spent a while writing about on Sunday. It’s one of the brilliances of what mozilla.org set up around a decade ago — conversations are happening in a highly decentralized way, around the whole world (and at every hour of the day, it seems to me). The two most active conversations, of course, are about XULRunner investment and reactions to Chris’ provocative video. \[...\] **[Al Billings](http://www.arcanology.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-16 14:21:00 I think some people are confusing the whole Mozilla has 100 employees thing to mean that Mozilla has 100 developers. Do you think that every employee at Mozilla is a developer? No QA, no Marketing, nothing but developers? From what I've seen, it is a diverse mix of people there and they are supporting a number of projects. **[Poll: Whose vision of web app deployment do you like the best? : Forecast-Blog](http://forecast-blog.com/2007/05/17/poll-whose-vision-of-web-app-deployment-do-you-like-the-best/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-17 12:41:12 \[...\] it’s not really in the same space as the other commercial companies. But as Chris Messina put it last week, Mozilla has the potential to be a significant platform for web app dev and \[...\] **Peter Wilson** ¡ 2007-05-20 18:07:12 I developed a prototype XUL Form designer which included drag-drop editing and property pages etc. This included the ability to create projects, design forms, and save/restore XUL form designs. I demonstrated this to Robert Ginda at Netscape Developer Days in 2002 (well before Firefox). The project is currently languishing at http://xulapp.mozdev.org/ Mozilla has consistently shown ZERO interest in having an XUL based IDE. In fact they have seemed to be antagonistic. Every bug I reported to Bugzilla has been removed. The story was alway "If it does not directly affect the Browser - then forget it". Ostensibly simple things have been asked for for over five years and are still on the back burner. E,g, It is essential to be able to load an XML DOM from source files in a Meta-Mode in which DTD constants are not resolved, overlayed content is identifiable, etc. Even the current DOM load method is totally horked. XUL documents are treated as special cases. Mixed documents of HTML, XUL and SVG are completely screwed. Not implemented DOM methods, inaccessible functions (Available to HTML but not XUL and visa-versa) abound. The whole loading framework needs a complete overhaul with an eye for tool development. Good luck. Even more importantly, there has been ZERO interest from the developer community. Actually I exagerate, there has been 3 messages on the XulApp forum since 2003\. The current state of the project is that the main parts of the IDE have been demonstrated and just require straightforward improvement. The big area that requires major development is the Javascript editor. This requires more help at the C++ level - JS is just too slow to do this low level job. E.g. JS Parsers, XML JS syntax tree builders, editor support for XML documents (Composer targets html and this is less than ideal as the basis for a JS editor). I gave up - my head feels much better the bruises on my forehead are nearly healed. **[Justin Meyer](http://jupiterit.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-20 21:05:16 Chris, I completely agree that silverlight, apollo, JavaFX are the future of the web. Have you ever heard of Trimpath's Junction MVC javascript framework? It's like rails for javascript. **[Ben Goodger](http://www.bengoodger.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-21 09:08:22 Asa, I need to correct you here. Engineers on Google's payroll did make significant contributions to Firefox 2.0 which shipped in late 2006\. To name a few: - Darin Fisher's ThreadManager re-architecture - The spell checking system implemented by Brett Wilson - The RSS preview/subscription feature I implemented - The search system back end straw man that I put together (and Gavin Sharp finished) And for Firefox 3, there's the significant amount of effort that several of us put into the core of the Places functionality which continues to be developed by folks at MozCom. The majority of this work was done during 2006 (and can be verified using bonsai), which makes the assertion that Google employees haven't contributed in "years" incorrect. **[Remarkk! » BarCamp: Toronto’s Tech Unconference](http://remarkk.com/2007/05/23/barcamp-torontos-tech-unconference/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-23 12:18:16 \[...\] conversation about the future of Mozilla as a product or a platform, based on Chris Messina’s recent rant on the \[...\] **[Video: Mozilla's Biggest Hurdles & Misdirections, by a Concerned Citizen « Veronica’s Lore](http://vefo.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/video-mozillas-biggest-hurdles-misdirections-by-a-concerned-citizen/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-23 15:45:42 \[...\] Find out more here… \[...\] **[Leslie](http://jinsync.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-23 16:25:31 Look what you started :) Some notes of mine, http://www.mozpad.org/doku.php?id=lwu http://www.mozpad.org/doku.php?id=transcript\_snippets \~L **[Jamie](http://jamiechang.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-30 10:38:52 hey chris, i have no idea what you're talking about, but it's cool to see you! x **[Michael Meiser](http://mmeiser.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-06 17:23:05 Just checking out the viddler interface. Viddler's time based tagging and commenting is interesting but let me know when they get the comments out of flash and use the blog API to post them as real comments to your blog post where they belong... where they can be read with the rest of the comments, where they can be tracked with co.comments.com and other trackers, where they can be syndicated with RSS... where I can actually READ them instead of them being in a tiny little 320x240 little window. The bottom line is there's two different conversations here. There's the one in viddler, which is... whatever... can't follow it. And then there's the one in the page... which is awesome and useful.... and I can actually read... and which I will actually get responses on because I'm tracking it with co.comments.com. Now... as to comment on what I read and hear hear. Mozilla is a PLATFORM... this is why it rocks and I.E. SUCKS. Because mozilla is open source it can be extended... innovation can be happen... Greasemonkey, plugins... exetentions... to a lesser extent themes. You're right most people DON'T care what browser they use, but if that was the ONLY case then Mozilla would be DEAD and has no future. Mozilla's job is to MAKE people care! There's NO way around that. In order for mozilla to suceed people MUST care. Mozilla's success right now is because they ARE making people care. My DAD uses mozilla. My dad would never go back to IE. Why? Because of security and popups for one. And btw, he see's that as the same issue. Because in many ways it is. I.E. craps all over him. Extentions he's installed = 0\. Theme's he's changed to or installed = 0\. Why do I say this. Because just like Apple who buys or simply outright steals the best 3rd party OS innovations and hacks like quicksilver, and the current application switcher and tons of other innovations. Mozilla needs to roll the BEST of these innovations, the most popular, the most sought after into the DEFAULT mozilla. Because Mozilla CAN and IS winning at making a large part of the population CARE about their browser. Security, pop up ad blocking... maybe a few other key components... but people WILL NOT configure mozilla... they will not sift through it's endless preference panes no matter how well designed and simple they are... \*\*intelligent defaults are extremely important\*\* and even more important still they will NOT go through and install plugins. The best of breed plugins need to be integrated into the core mozilla. It's good for the developers of those plugins to aknowlege their hard work and integrate it into the core... and it's GREAT for the customers. That cycle of encouraging innovation through creating an OPEN platform... I'm thinking grease monkey too... by courting the developers... by making great API's... by using copy left open source licensing to encourage branching. That and lots of consultants and strategists and developers donating their time and energy is the key to mozilla creating a product that's so much better than IE that people CARE to install it. Personally, I have infinite thanks for Mozilla. If you set a side the fact that I use firefox and love it... take that completely out of the equation all together... mozilla has still been a RESOUNDing success. Even if it only had 15% of the market share... and not the 20 or 25% it has... even if it never progresses beyond 20% it's still a success because it has brought innovation and openess back to the web space. Of course... to most people commenting here they're like "no sh\*t, you don't say".. but I had to say it. Even though I would hope Mozilla would take 50% market share or more and make I.E. the #2 browser it really doesn't matter in the scope of things. All that matters to me now is that the mozilla foundation turns a 10% or 20% profit while staying true to it's manifest (being open and not evil) and keep innovating so that it can sustain itself as a very equitable business and keep innovation alive in the space for another 5, 10, 20 years. Anyway... just thought I really just wanted to comment on viddler, because I was checking it out, but I thought since I wrote so much on viddler interface I should also respond to the actual post. One last thought on viddler. While the interface is interesting there's a lot more to a company than a cool flash interface... look at blip.tv. My fav video blog host. The key to blip's success thus far is serving the core videoblogging community... which unlike youtube.. wants to have their own domain... their own blog, the ability to monetize... to OWN their own content and have control over it... to not have it deleted or removed because of some arbitrary DMCA notice. Anyway... none of that has to do with a slick interface. It has to do with strategy and architecutre and business direction. Then again.. blip could REALLY stand to have a slick viddler flash interface... maybe the two should partner... of course maybe viddler sees blip as competition. They shouldn't, but maybe they do. **[Ramblings in response to Viddler ramblings | Colin Devroe](http://cdevroe.com/notes/re-viddler-ramblings/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-08 06:06:21 \[...\] suggestions fall on the heels of his watching Chris Messina’s excellent rant about Mozilla. A video that has received a great deal of attention and with that - a good deal of conversation \[...\] **Brenden** ¡ 2007-06-12 19:15:36 Hey Chris, I am new here. I am wondering about this comment: 8# CivicForge… like an ethical Cambrian House... I am wondering what is wrong with Cambrian House (www.cambrianhouse.com)? **[Mozilla in Asia » Blog Archive » something is happening in Japan (with Firefox)](http://blog.mozilla.com/gen/2007/06/18/something-is-happening-in-japan-with-firefox/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-17 23:31:02 \[...\] in May, Chris Messina, who used to volunteer with Mozilla, posted a video rant which got a lot of attention. # 3 on the list of constructive criticisms about Mozilla Chris \[...\] **[??» RIA???????? » ??/??\~?????????](http://www.artec.cn/art/?p=902&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-07 09:28:44 \[...\] Messina??Mozilla?????Brendan Eich?????Web???Microsoft ?Adobe \[...\] **[Maxthon Blog » Signs that Mozilla is having problems..](http://blog.maxthon.com/?p=64&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-16 19:14:50 \[...\] video and post by Chris Messina and his thought on Mozilla. Interesting stuff and worthwhile reflecting \[...\] **Months Later** ¡ 2007-09-23 18:34:55 Former employee lobs disgruntled vision fused with passion to a (well composed) PR team. Crowd goes wild. **[In Pursuit of Mysteries » Mac OS X Camera?](http://www.arcanology.com/2007/10/19/mac-os-x-camera/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-19 13:31:18 \[...\] I can all over the intarweb like Asa or Chris Messina. This entry was written by Al and posted on October 19, 2007 at 2:31 pm and filed under Mozilla, \[...\] **[MS MossyBlog : Mozilla, Adobe and Silverlight. Shall we dance?](http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog/archive/2007/10/27/mozilla-adobe-and-silverlight-shall-we-dance.aspx?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-10-26 18:24:37 \[...\] as that product as emotional bonds associated to it, and you will lose - except if you're this guy). I think competition in this space is really going to push us all that much faster in terms of \[...\] **[THE EYE OF RIA » RIA????????](http://www.riaeye.com/archives/326?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-11-29 18:30:57 \[...\] Messina??Mozilla?????Brendan Eich?????Web???Microsoft ?Adobe \[...\] **[Einige Links zu Video 2.0: Next Generation video portals : WebWorkBlogger](http://webworkblogger.de/index.php/2007/05/13/einige-links-zu-video-20-next-generation-video-portals/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-01 20:49:14 \[...\] Sevenload mein Favourit. Videoantworten in Videos, Tagging, Links auf Zeiten und Kommentare. Bsp.: Chris Messina Ăźber Mozilla, unbedingt ausprobieren und ansehen!), \[...\] **[The Open Web is a social movement | eaves.ca](http://eaves.ca/2008/06/10/the-open-web-is-a-social-movement/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-10 04:33:23 \[...\] I sense a number of people look to Mozilla to be that rallying point. Indeed, last year when Chris Messina ranted online about Mozilla - which some in the Mozilla Corporation incorrectly felt was an unhelpful critique of the \[...\] **[acidlabs » Messina’s Mozifesto](http://www.acidlabs.org/2007/05/12/messinas-mozifesto/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-21 23:25:14 \[...\] read about Stephen Collins or subscribe to the RSS feed. Thanks for visiting!Chris Messina’s 50 minute video manifesto about where Mozilla ought to be taking itself is mighty impressive stuff. He’s obviously \[...\] **[Nice Chrome](http://www2.gapintelligence.com/blog/2008/09/02/nice-chrome/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-09-02 11:32:16 \[...\] a household name (and thus largely responsible for putting Firefox on the map in the first place), laments that Firefox is losing its relevance because of competition from Silverlight and Flash. His argument is laudable because it puts to task \[...\] ### We found women in tech, so why are you still not reporting about them? URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/we-found-women-in-tech-so-why-are-you-still-not-reporting-about-them/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:56.000Z [](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07%5F20/b4034080.htm?ref=chrismessina.me)There's a [good article on unconferences](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07%5F20/b4034080.htm?ref=chrismessina.me) by Scott Kirsner in next week's BusinessWeek. He talks about what an unconference is, discusses the rise of the wider community and the potential threat to the traditional conference model. All in all, he does a pretty good job capturing an accurate picture of the "unconference scene" and it was great getting to talk to Scott about his piece. I did want to take issue with his singling me out of "two fellow Web2Open organizers", and bring some attention to gender blindness in media stories such as this one. As with many stories in the popular press, it's fairly typical to rest the foundation of a story on one or two key individuals; it keeps complexity low and avoids getting bogged down in details that are only of import to the characters of the story. And I'm sure that Scott didn't intend any malice, but that [Ross](http://ross.typepad.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Tara](http://horsepigcow.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), who both stood on those chairs with me went unnamed strikes me as a missed opportunity to highlight not only the hard work that lots of folks have put into building this community, but in particular undermines the credit that Tara deserves for the incredible amount of work that she did to make Web2Open happen. If anyone, she's the one that really deserves to be called out in the article. But there's a second and more insidious issue that I want to raise now, while the issue is relevant... If you read over the article, with the inside knowledge that I have of the background that went into the article, it's doubly unfortunate that Tara wasn't given more credit as a female organizer when she did far more than I did to pull off the conference; on top of that, the mention of [Web2Open attendee](http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=12748226&postID=5070565819803536760&ref=chrismessina.me) [Sudha Jamthe](http://coolastory.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (a [previous BarCamp organizer](http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=12748226&postID=5583558783906182414&ref=chrismessina.me), no less) and Tara Dunion, spokeswoman for the Consumer Electronics Association, seem to paint them as bit players when compared to [white guys like me](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/09/15/the-future-of-white-boy-clubs/?ref=chrismessina.me), Dave Winer and Doug Gold. Now, maybe I'm just over-sensitive to this kind of stuff, building mountains out of molehills and all that, but I suppose that's the price of vigilance. And it's also something that I can't ignore when [BarCamp](http://barcamp.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) is not and has never been solely about individuals, but about what we can do together, when serving each our own's best interests. And this is especially relevant if you read [Aaron Swartz's thoughts on mysogny](http://blog.outer-court.com/archive/2007-05-07-n78.html?ref=chrismessina.me) in the tech community: > If you talk to any woman in the tech community, it won’t be long before they start telling you stories about disgusting, sexist things guys have said to them. It freaks them out; and rightly so. As a result, the only women you see in tech are those who are willing to put up with all the abuse. I really noticed this when I was at foo camp once, Tim O’Reilly’s exclusive gathering for the elite of the tech community. The executive guys there, when they thought nobody else was around, talked about how they always held important business meetings at strip clubs and the deficiencies of programmers from various countries. Meanwhile, foo camp itself had a session on discrimination in which it was explained to us that the real problem was not racism or sexism, but simply the fact that people like to hang out with others who are like themselves. The denial about this in the tech community is so great that sometimes I despair of it ever getting fixed. And I should be clear, it’s not that there are just some bad people out there who are being prejudiced and offensive. Many of these people that I’m thinking of are some of my best friends in the community. It’s an institutional problem, not a personal one. Promoting women when they're doing great things in the tech community has to become a top priority. Providing and seeking out the women who are serving in backbone roles within our community and bringing the spotlight to them and supporting them must become a shared priority. Working with women's groups to create both inviting events and interesting opportunities to draw out and inspire the reluctant or hidden female talent is something that conference and \*camp organizers alike must attend to. I think I'm extra sensitive about this particular case for two reasons. The first is that we tried really hard and went out of our way to encourage and [create diversity](http://barcamp.org/Diversity?ref=chrismessina.me) both in [Web2Open](http://socialtext.net/web2open?ref=chrismessina.me) and in the [Web2Expo](http://www.web2expo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). It was certainly a challenge, but I'm proud of the progress we made. I personally had the privilege to work with three incredible women on the designer track ([Kelly Goto](http://gotomedia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Jen Pahlka](http://tiny-media.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Emily Chang](http://emilychang.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) and I think that made all the difference. The second issue probably stems from the Schwartz interview where Philipp Lenssen (the interviewer) [reports](http://blog.outer-court.com/archive/2007-05-07-n78.html?ref=chrismessina.me): > The last barcamp I was at, in Nuremberg, had a men/ women ratio of about 80/ 2\. It was quite sad, and I was wondering what the cause of this was. Is it partly also a problem of the hacker culture, to behave anti-social, and that this puts off more social people? Many good programmers I know, for instance, aren’t too social. To which Aaron astutely replies: > I think that’s probably part of it; many people don’t have the social skills to notice how offensive they’re being. But even the people who are quite social and competent misbehave and, furthermore, they support a culture where this misbehavior is acceptable. I don’t exclude myself from this criticism. Now, for a BarCamp to have an 80-2 male-female ratio is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned. And I would hope and challenge the BarCamp community, in particular, to do whatever it takes to work to remedy a condition like this. There are simply no excuses, only constant improvements to be made. And if any community were up to the challenge of taking head on and reversing this long term, systemic trend of making women effectively invisible, I should hope, and moreover *expect*, that it would be the BarCamp community to take the first worldwide steps towards addressing this critical matter and setting some baseline priorities for how we're going to improve this situation. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Tara Hunt](http://claimid.com/missrogue?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 02:05:00 You are my hero. xo **[Tim](http://www.plansphere.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 02:31:22 To be fair, a lot of folks in the German Barcamp community would agree with you and have been trying very actively to tackle this issue. Cologne and Frankfurt did a slightly better job with a little over 10 percent female participation. And that's after what seems to have been a lot of effort was put into reaching out to women. Upcoming Barcamp Hamburg looks like they will fall into the same range (barely). So, yes, maybe a 80-2 ratio is unacceptable, but you've got to start somewhere (and make progress from there). I'm confident Nuremberg II (should they ever do one) will be more diverse than the first. ;-) **[Promoting female participation at VlogEurope at DLTQ.org](http://dltq.org/?p=39&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 02:42:41 \[...\] \[source\]\[/source\] \[...\] **[Neil Ford](http://smudgypixels.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 02:53:36 Great article Chris, thank you for putting it out there. As someone who headed up an all women tech team, they were quite simply better at the job, I hope I'm never offensive to anyone. I also hope that if I was, someone would have the guts to pull me up on it. - Neil. **[Richard A Ciordia](http://andy.ciordia.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 04:47:27 You have to stay vigilant and I think you worded yourself well. Not too many deep barbs, and it's quite to the point. We need great women leaders in the community/industry and I don't want to see us go down further tubes like what happened to Kathy Sierra. You shouldn't have to grow a kevlar coat or stay invisible to exist here. **[Joel Courtney](http://euphemize.net/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 05:09:27 Chris, a similar write up regarding women in IT was made in Australia (Sydney Morning Herald's Next section - the business IT supplement) specifically targeting gender issues but also looking at where they stem from. There is still such a massive social stigma against women getting involved in highly technical positions which I think is exceedingly unfortunate. Doesn't matter if they have a penis or not - it's how they perform in the job (without the sexist comments that make ones life hard in a very male industry). **L** ¡ 2007-05-08 09:02:56 Ever read about the Implicit Association Test (IAT)? I have to wonder if many reporters have implicit associations wrt men vs women in the space of tech. A typical consciousness raising / activist-y effort would be then to aim for further education, but anecdotally I have heard reports of at least one set of professors that were conscious of their own gender bias and yet when they looked at how they rated "average" prof job hires, the gender bias was still there. I think there's two points two infer from that bit of data. One, that being a "superstar" in a field outweighs some gender bias, as it's clear if you're awesome you're just awesome. But if you're just a bit more typical, /even if you're conscious of your own bias/ you still may be affected by it. Another point suggested by a PhD candidate here at TheFarm who studies, specifically, women in tech (Sapna Cheryan -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/wu\_135/471800970/) is that environmental factors such as what items are placed in a room seems to affect young women's measured interest in majoring in Computer Science. That said, I do think education is important, even if it may have a limited impact on the older generations. I also think it's worth having some understanding of how power dynamics tend to work, and how top-k "merit-based" sampling for speaker/member selection can lead to a poorer result (working on this paper now). And of course there's homophily and all that jazz... \~L **[ryanne](http://ryanishungry.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 09:33:05 yes. **Cathy** ¡ 2007-05-08 09:56:22 Chris, Thank you for your insightful posts on this issue. It is curious (and discouraging) that the number of women at some of the European events is so low. I would have thought that countries that have managed to get a reasonable amount of women into physics would have more women in tech as well. **[Bryce Johnson](http://www.thechickentest.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 10:43:35 Great post Chris. I wonder if we should start taking more accurate headcount at events in Toronto. If you look at the events surrounding BarCamp Toronto Techweek. You can see that some evens have more balanced ratios then others. Maybe we can compare the attendees of Drupalcamp (Walkah give me numbers), InteractionCamp and the EnterpriseCamp events. Toronto has tried to tackle this problem as well as acting deplorably in the past and we need to take responsibility somehow. I know data collection is not a solution but it is where I think I will start. **[Raines](http://www.raines.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 11:37:18 In a quarter century of community organizing in the tech world, I've found this to be a chronic issue. With any user group/conference/process, there are many sorts of filters that people apply in deciding whether or not to attend, including: - who are the organizers? (seed group/core) It is harder to diversify if the priorities/interests/styles of whatever group you are missing is not in there from the beginning. - who do people know? As commented above, people tend to bring friends and people they are most comfortable talking with and who they feel would fit in. Conversations and relationships crossing the gender line perhaps experience static or obstacles relating to motivation and experience. - Priorities, choices: This situation is not universal to the format. I believe FoodCamp was much more gender balanced; Mobile Persuasion Camp as well. There are creative solutions. A Nonviolent Communication (NVC) trainer trying to achieve ethnic diversity at an event would allow allow nonminorities to register if they brought along someone of a different ethnic background. Distribute the problem, make it everyone's responsibility. It helps if the beneficiaries of bias in the system get some perspective/training so they can recognize that they are indeed, benefiting from the system (so much is just implicit/taken for granted that it is sometimes hard to see)... and so they can see what they're missing as well. **[Joerg Battermann](http://joergbattermann.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 14:44:38 We'll get there, not by sitting on our hands, but I am pretty determined to bring more women to our next BC (Nuremberg II & Munich)'s tables. Not because of this particular post or what Aaron or Philip or whoever said, but because I personally see the sharing folks behind our \*camps as a movement towards a nicer, equal and grand society for people and businesses (and therefore people again) alike, but what the heck, we need and want everyone, no matter what differentiation. You could also argue that there were hardly any "black" people or only 10% where beyond the age of 35 etc - what we ultimately need is a way to reach everyone else that is not a "white guy like me.. and you"... and we should invite everyone to participate in this discussion. We've found a weakness, let's fix it! -Joerg **[Off Topic :: links for 2007-05-08](http://www.sandyofftopic.com/2007/05/links-for-2007-05-08/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 15:36:02 \[...\] FactoryCity » We found women in tech, so why are you still not reporting about them? A great post by Chris Messina on the misogyny that still runs rampant (although oh-so-politely) in technology today. (tags: torcamp women) \[...\] **[Tara Hunt](http://claimid.com/missrogue?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 17:54:37 I should add that articles like the Business Week one are total wipeouts to a girl's self-esteem. Did I not appear to be in charge? I thought I spent most of my time talking to Scott - several hours, in fact. I didn't even deserve a mention? My inner Gollum starts thinking, "Well, maybe you just aren't that remarkable. Perhaps you should just throw in the towel." I read that article and my heart dropped. Being one of two other unnamed people standing on a chair after spending months of energy, time and heart and soul working on that event makes me bitter and angry. Not a positive outcome. Dammit...I'm even aggressive about being out front. And, as Chris knows, this ain't the first time. **[::HorsePigCow:: marketing uncommon » This is the kind of stuff that feeds my Inner Gollum](http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/05/08/this-is-the-kind-of-stuff-that-feeds-my-inner-gollum/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 18:08:30 \[...\] being the ‘lead’ on the project, I get reduced to a chair perched by-stander? Luckily Chris has piped up on the subject before me, but wtf?! This ain’t the first time. And I’m not imagining \[...\] **[John Deisher](http://www.emergingthunk.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-09 04:13:23 Chris, as I said in my post that you commented on, I had really hoped that this was a serious problem only in the world I work in...the world of the church. I had high hopes that technology (and by extension it's world) would level the playing field. Apparently not. I have spent 10 years being a pain about this (may be the reason I am no longer invited to be on planning committees ;-) but someone has to do it. I appreciate you taking the influence you have and making this an issue. **[The ability to convey ideas... does it matter to you? « Great Presentations Mean Business](http://gpmb.wordpress.com/2007/05/07/the-ability-to-convey-ideas-does-it-matter-to-you/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-09 07:09:06 \[...\] stood on chairs“. As Chris Messina of Factory City (who is named in the article) puts it: We found women in tech, so why are you still not reporting about them? \[...\] **[Joanna, CKO » links for 2007-05-09](http://joanna.briggs.ca/blog/2007/05/09/links-for-2007-05-09/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-09 12:18:28 \[...\] FactoryCity » We found women in tech, so why are you still not reporting about them? Amen, brother (tags: technology web2expo07 work conferences media) \[...\] **[Barce](http://www.codebelay.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-09 13:25:24 This is great stuff. Here's the bender that's getting me hung up. I really just want to see individuals. I don't want to see men. I don't want to see women, or race, or class. Yet to address these issues, I have to use the very categories that are used by the very people that make glass ceilings. Is there a better way of talking? We're asking "Why aren't you reporting about women?" And Chris does a great job of pointing out particular people, like Kelly Goto who does awesome design work. How do we liberate ourselves from categories of race, class and gender? Why isn't society at large ready to ask, "Where are all the awesome people?" and have that be code for the everyday, wrong things that we want to change? **[Barcamp in Business Week - Licence to Roam](http://blog.bibrik.com/archives/2007/05/barcamp%5Fin%5Fbusiness%5Fweek.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-09 13:55:46 \[...\] Tara is feeling rightly aggrieved (and see Chris’s response as well): Seriously…months of hard work and being the ‘lead’ on the project, I get reduced to \[...\] **[unconference » Gender Biased Newsweek Article on Unconferences](http://kaliyasblogs.net/unconference/?p=55&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-09 21:03:04 \[...\] weather I would blog about the clear gender bias I felt in reading the article. However since Chris brought it up I thought I could chime in too. I did want to take issue with his singling me out of “two fellow \[...\] **[Women do great things, too « GiddleBits](http://giddlebits.wordpress.com/2007/05/10/women-do-great-things-too/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 04:33:21 \[...\] say much on the matter, however, Chris Messina, who was also on the project, was awesome enough to pipe up about it and not let it go \[...\] **[johnbaeyens.com » links for 2007-05-10](http://blog.johnbaeyens.com/2007/05/links-for-2007-05-10/john/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 07:05:41 \[...\] We found women in tech, so why are you still not reporting about them? 80/20? Must have been 95/5 at BarcampBrussels. (tags: women in tech) No Tags \[...\] **[Sky (Jim Schuyler)](http://blog.dlfound.org/sky?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 19:25:08 When I started software companies in the 1980s we had a great male/female mix - probably 40% female, even though we were a software company. Why? I think it's because we threw everyone into the same mixing bowl and the geeks taught the non-geeks - and vide-versa - we sent the geeks to the trade shows to talk with the customers, which turned the geeks into market-aware product developers. In my peak productivity period, Heidi Roizen, Esther Dyson and Ann Winblad were among our heros - maybe y'oughtta ask them why today is any different than then. My guess about today's poor ratio is that, as I would guess, there are still far more male programmers than female and perhaps "geek" is too closely aligned with "programmer." Gotta just broaden out the topics of discussion and get beyond coding. Get Ryanne in there about video. Get Kaliya in there about identity. Reach out and bring in the people who can make the meeting(s) even more "reachy" and interesting. And productive. **[Sky's Blog - The Dalai Lama Foundation CTO](http://blog.dlfound.org/sky/wp/?p=272&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-10 19:30:21 **I’m a Turtle - Un-Conferences incorporate the best “nomadic” concepts...**It’s a great post that you should just go read - especially if you’re sick and tired of regular conference presentations and looking for something new.What I like most is that these un-conferences incorporate the best ideas from “noma... **Cathy Edwards** ¡ 2007-05-10 20:04:26 Thanks for this post. It's nice to hear a guy saying this for once rather than the girls having to do all the fighting. It was also good for me to hear it – I have been dealing with this for a long time and honestly, I’d been beaten down enough that I’d stopped fighting. I was ok with getting excited if there are more than 10% women in the room with me. I was prepared to deal with the constant machismo/sexism/mild misogynism. But now I’m all fired up – thanks :) I believe one of the fundamental barriers to women in tech is the lack of a supportive community. Certainly I’ve felt like an outsider in this industry forever. Last night, I went home and wrote some code, then I did some sewing. I’m currently looking for a suitable Louis Vuitton handbag for my new Macbook. It feels like I’m a walking contradiction – yet why should any of these activities feel contradictory? Women are not going to participate in tech until they can feel like they can be themselves. From my involvement with the Melbourne IEEE Women in Engineering group, I know that this is a very culturally specific thing – our colleagues in India for example don’t even understand the necessity for such groups, given that there are more women than men in EE engineering over there. And while “women in techâ€? type activities are necessary and useful, I don’t think they are an answer. I don’t think we can solve it in a blog post, but in general we need more open mindedness, and more challenging of stereotypes. Some interesting data - out of a sample of 40 active Twitterers in Melbourne, Australia, 32 are male, 7 are female and 1 is a company. (Caveat - this data was collected very roughly, based on who was visible on twittermaps at 1:30pm AEST Friday 11th May. I assumed that the gender of the person in your photo was your actual gender. I dare say that there are far more non active Twitterers in Melbourne, but I didn't think that level of activity and gender would be strongly correlated, so I think the data is still reasonable.) A ratio of 5:1 is actually pleasantly surprising, but still not good enough. Let’s not just talk about it – let’s make the change happen. **[Partnership & Possibilities » Blog Archive » Seeing Women in Technology](http://www.futureworksconsulting.com/blog/2007/05/15/seeing-women-in-technology/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-15 08:38:12 \[...\] I read further and found a broader, underlying story. Chris Messina wrote a blog commenting on the interesting way that the women involved had disappeared from the reporting. \[...\] **[The latest take on a very old theme « VeraCity](http://vera.wordpress.com/2007/05/16/the-latest-take-on-a-very-old-theme/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-15 22:39:07 \[...\] stream press story about it, Tara is ignored and unnamed while top billing goes to co-organizer Chris Messina. Most women in technical professions can tell any number of similar tales. This is one of the great \[...\] **[Calling all Geek Girls at acidlabs](http://blog.acidlabs.org/2007/05/29/calling-all-geek-girls/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-28 19:19:11 \[...\] Here’s something for all the Australia-based Geek Girls out there. I know that you’re all as good as or better than your male counterparts. Unfortunately an often female-blind media rarely gives you the credit you deserve. \[...\] **[Gabrielle](http://techchickblog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-08 17:53:52 Thanks for the lady love :) It's a secret pet peeve of mine actually...since I've been accused of not doing my own writing a few times. I guess I look too female to be smart. **[Photo Matt Âť Meaningful Overnight Relationship « Social Orb](http://socialorb.wordpress.com/2007/06/09/photo-matt-%c2%bb-meaningful-overnight-relationship/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-08 23:21:21 \[...\] multifold danger to this kind of story archetype — one that you allude to — and another that I wrote about of similar impact — where all the founders are not only young but also typically white \[...\] **[Lauren](http://www.laurengalanter.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-07-18 05:02:22 Thank you for this article. Sometimes I really think the fact that I am female, short and look younger than I am is \*the\* main reason I had such a hard time finding work last year. While I work more in the film/video end of the tech spectrum, it's much the same in that industry, if not worse. **[Armand Rousso](http://business.armandrousso.biz/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-09-02 02:23:10 It is undeniable fact that we are contorting the image of women through a fixed ideology or inherited culture in which they find them selves more restricted in all field,However,that not good for our progress.Women should not be discriminated or excluded from tech community in order to reach the top priority. Armand Rousso http://business.armandrousso.biz/ **[acidlabs » Calling all Geek Girls](http://www.acidlabs.org/2007/05/29/calling-all-geek-girls/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-07-21 23:14:51 \[...\] Calling all Geek Girls 05.29.07 | No Comments Hello! Welcome to acidlabs. If you’re new here, you may want to read about Stephen Collins or subscribe to the RSS feed. Thanks for visiting!Here’s something for all the Australia-based Geek Girls out there. I know that you’re all as good as or better than your male counterparts. Unfortunately an often female-blind media rarely gives you the credit you deserve. \[...\] ### Twitter adds support for hAtom, hCard and XFN URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/twitter-adds-support-for-hatom-hcard-and-xfn/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:55.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/489127243/?ref=chrismessina.me)The [Cinco de Meow DevHouse](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/05/03/cinco-de-devhouse/?ref=chrismessina.me) was arguably a pretty productive event. Not only did [Larry](http://lhalff.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) get buckets done on [hAtomic](http://hatomic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) but I got to peer pressure [Alex Payne](http://www.al3x.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) from Twitter into [adding microformats](http://twitter.com/al3x/statuses/53982402?ref=chrismessina.me) to the site based on [a diagram](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/388495284/?ref=chrismessina.me) I did some time ago: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/489112186/?ref=chrismessina.me)There are still a few bugs to be worked out in the markup, but it's pretty incredible to think about how much recognizable data is now available in Twitter's HTML. [Sam Sethi](http://www.vecosys.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) got [the early scoop](http://www.vecosys.com/2007/05/08/twitter-now-supports-hatom-and-hcard-microformats/?ref=chrismessina.me), and now I'm waiting for the first mashup that takes advantage of the XFN data to plot out all the social connections of the Twittersphere. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[microformats.dk » Blog Archive » Twitter har füet microformats](http://www.microformats.dk/2007/05/08/twitter-har-faet-microformats/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 08:25:56 \[...\] lÌser lige nyheden om at Twitter ogsü har füet microformats. Der er godt nok nogle mindre bugs, der skal rettes, \[...\] **[Twitter is adopting Microformats at Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2007-05-08/twitter-is-adopting-microformats/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-08 11:29:18 \[...\] Chris Messina is reporting that microformats have been added to all geeks’ favourite communication tool Twitter. More specifically hCards, XFN, and hAtom have been added to user profiles. \[...\] **[lotusmedia 2.0 » More microformats](http://lotusmedia.org/more-microformats?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-02 14:02:59 \[...\] Twitter supports hAtom, hCard and XFN. \[...\] **[??????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? | ???? ????](http://www.blognevesht.com/1387/06/09/google-social-graph-api/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-08-30 06:18:08 \[...\] ?????? (XFN) ? ?????? ?? ???? (FOAF) ?? ???? ???????? ????? ??????? ?????? ? ???? ?????? ? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ?? \[...\] ### Cinco de DevHouse URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/cinco-de-devhouse/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:05.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/483334174/?ref=chrismessina.me)Just a reminder that [SuperHappyDevHouse](http://superhappydevhouse.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) is [this weekend](http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/176770/?ref=chrismessina.me)! ### A different kind of net neutrality: Carbon Offsetting Web 2.0 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/a-different-kind-of-net-neutrality-carbon-offsetting-web-20/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:54.000Z ![Flickr Green](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/flickr_green.png) A couple months ago I had an idea that I've wanted to socialize since, but had only taken to doing so behind the scenes. Things being as they are, I've had little time to really advance this cause further, other than push it on a few friends who, so far, have reacted quite positively. Prompted by [Jeremy Zawodny's post](http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/008910.html?ref=chrismessina.me) about [Yahoo going carbon neutral](http://yodel.yahoo.com/2007/04/17/dont-even-leave-a-footprint/?ref=chrismessina.me) and in support of Chris Baskind's [month-long effort](http://lighterfootstep.com/bookmark-the-green-web-for-earth-day.html?ref=chrismessina.me) to get high quality environmental links added to his [Lighter Footstep group](http://ma.gnolia.com/groups/lighterfootstep?ref=chrismessina.me), I thought I'd finally write this up to see if it draws any interest. The idea is rather simple and requires but one piece of support infrastructure that fortunately my fellow citizen coworker [Ivan Storck](http://sustainablemarketing.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) is already hard at work on (more about that later). So what's the idea? Well, quite simply, it's a web service that you use to offset the carbon footprint of your customers using your app. This would be mostly beneficial for larger services, but it's my belief that every little bits counts! For freemium services like [Basecamp](http://basecamphq.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [WordPress](http://wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Last.fm](http://www.last.fm/?ref=chrismessina.me), providing an option for paying members to add $1/month to their bill in order to offset their use of your web service is where it begins. In exchange for this contribution, they would get a special distinction within the community, like a green avatar or badge to denote their carbon neutral status: ![Last.fm Green](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/lastfm_green.png) Now, this might seem like a trivial incentive, but then you might also be surprised to learn that the number one reason that people pay to upgrade their Flickr accounts is not because they need more storage or unlimited uploads, but instead because they want that [tiny little PRO label](http://l.yimg.com/www.flickr.com/images/badge%5Fpro.gif.v2?ref=chrismessina.me) next to their name. Offering a similar incentive on social networks -- and making "offsetting cool" becomes a way to propagate this behavior, ultimately working towards completely offsetting the entirety of Web 2.0\. Now, those of you who have read up on [carbon offsetting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon%5Foffset?ref=chrismessina.me) or know anything about the power that servers draw will quickly be able to recognize that $1 month to offset a single user account is going overboard, given that it technically only costs a few cents per month to power most people's individual use of social networking sites. And while you wouldn't be wrong, you've hit on an interesting social component of this campaign: those who want to offset can do so, and in doing so, won't just be offsetting their footprint, but some their neighbors as well, in an act straight out of [Caterina Fake's](http://www.caterina.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) [culture of generosity](http://www.preoccupations.org/2007/03/the%5Fculture%5Fof%5F.html?ref=chrismessina.me). So it's not so much about offsetting one's *personal* use, but on offsetting at a *social level* \-- and that this good deed is reflected a user's avatar or badge means that anyone can effectively "upgrade" themselves to carbon neutral status -- once they get annoyed that all their friends have "leveled up" and they haven't. Meanwhile, those who have upgraded as a proactive choice can feel reassured that their influence is affecting those around them to make similar decisions, even if for different reasons -- in the end, the result doubleplusgood. So, about that API that I mentioned. It's important to realize that 1) we're in the early stages of [carbon offsetting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon%5Foffset?ref=chrismessina.me) and the 2) not all [carbon offsetting funds](http://www.carbonfund.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) are created equal (this is something I'm becoming evermore familiar with as we move to certify [Citizen Space](http://citizenspace.us/?ref=chrismessina.me) as a green office). Therefore, Ivan (who I mentioned and who also runs [Sustainable Marketing](http://sustainablemarketing.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Sustainable Websites](http://www.sustainablewebsites.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) has begun work on an API that will allow companies to purchase carbon offsets in bulk based on the actual amount of power consumed in something like a server farm evnironment (where power measurements are fairly easy to come by). Once initiated, the purchase will likely take place through one of Ivan's affiliates based here in San Francisco called [3 Phases](http://www.3phases.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). In any case, we're in the beginning phases of making this happen, but if you're interested in helping or in offsetting your customers' usage, leave a comment or [drop me a note](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/drop-me-a-note/?ref=chrismessina.me) and we'll see if we can't push this work forward. Likewise, if you can think of other ways to minimize the environmental footprint of your webservice or web office, blog about it and let others know! We're doing what we can to create [green coworking spaces](http://wiki.coworking.info/GreenCoworking?ref=chrismessina.me) and the more success stories we come across, the better. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Abhay Kumar](http://opensynapse.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-23 00:58:38 One of the many things I'm really proud that we did at Gotham Ruby Conference in our inaugural year is that we offset the carbon footprint of our speakers and attendees (including travel, etc.) by [ 45 tons](http://goruco.com/articles/2007/04/21/carbon-offsets/?ref=chrismessina.me). Unfortunately the calculations weren't precise by any means but I'm sure we'll be looking to continue this precedent. We went with climatefriendly.org, an Australian organization affiliated with the World Wildlife Fund. They fund Gold Standard-accredited clean energy projects in Australia, so we feel reasonably secure that our donation was going to effective work. **[Alexander Muse](http://www.m-ven.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-23 06:36:42 At first I was really against the concept of 'carbon offsets'. Dallas is the capital of non-profit organizations designed to 'enrich' those who run them so I am always skeptical of such 'charitable' efforts. So why have I changed my mind? First, it is hard to argue that there isn't HUGE money to be made in the 'carbon offset' business (literally billions of dollars). Almost every player in the space today is in it for themselves, playing lip service to the environment. If there could be a model whereby NO ONE made any money or directed the flow of money the idea could work. How do you build an infrastructure that uses or directs 0% of the funds it collects? How can we impact the environment without lining someones pockets? Hmm... **[Caterina Fake](http://www.caterina.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-24 08:45:16 Yes, there's some controversy around carbon offsets, and I'd love to hear if anyone has done research on which programs are better than others. I went with [Carbon Fund](http://www.carbonfund.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) but didn't do a lot of research in advance. And yes, like Chris says, putting in a little extra, more than covers your own consumption, makes up for all the people who don't! If there's some research on ppl wanting the tiny PRO label on their name vs. unlimited storage, I'd love to see it. :-) But I don't deny it's a very strong incentive. **[Thor Muller](http://blog.getsatisfaction.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-24 23:59:36 I love the idea of simple web services that make it easy to "do the right thing." Few of us have the spare cycles to do this (and other social/environmental activism) well, so anything that takes the guesswork and pain out of it has the potential to have a huge impact. Let's make it easy for a lot more people and companies to say "yes!" **[Ben Rowe](http://benrowesblog.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-29 04:10:54 I think that this is a terrific idea. People who are choosing to go green do want to be recognised for it. And for many of us who are addicted to social sites like flickr or last.fm, an extra dollar onto our account fee is a simple way to gain that recognition **[Rob Cottingham » links for 2007-04-30](http://www.robcottingham.ca/20070429/links-for-2007-04-30/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-29 18:18:00 \[...\] A different kind of net neutrality: Carbon Offsetting Web 2.0 Chris Messina proposes having web apps offer carbon offsets so users can erase the footprint of using their service (and get a swanky little green avatar in the process). Cool idea! (tags: environment web application premium carbon offset climate\_change) \[...\] **[http-www.philaestheta.com-](http://www.philaestheta.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-04 00:27:01 maybe this is old news, but dreamhost.com also made all their hosting carbon neutral - http://blog.dreamhost.com/2007/04/20/were-green/ **David Comdico** ¡ 2007-05-10 10:02:39 Carbon offsetting strikes me as not only absurd but the contemporary equivalent of buying a seat in heaven. With your own personalized nameplate even. ### Raising the standard for avatars URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/raising-the-standard-for-avatars/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:53.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/missrogue/285504432/?ref=chrismessina.me)Not long ago, [Gravatar](http://site.gravatar.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [crawled back out from the shadows](http://blog.gravatar.com/2007/2/16/welcome-to-gravatar-2-0?ref=chrismessina.me) and relaunched with a snazzy new service (backed by [Amazon S3](http://www.amazon.com/S3-AWS-home-page-Money/b?ie=UTF8&node=16427261&ref=chrismessina.me)) that lets you claim multiple email addresses and host multiple gravatars with them for $10 a year. The beauty of their service is that it makes it possible to centrally control the 80 by 80 pixel face that you put out to the world and to additionally tie a different face to each of your email addresses. And this works tremendously well when it comes to leaving a comment somewhere that a) supports Gravatar and b) requires an email address to leave a comment. Now, when Gravatar went dark, as you might expect, some enterprising folks came together and attempted to develop a decentralized standard to replace the well-worn service in a quasi-authoritarian spec called [Pavatar](http://pavatar.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (for personal avatar). Aside from the [unnecessary invention](http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-pavatar?ref=chrismessina.me) of a new term, the choice to create an [overly complicated spec](http://pavatar.com/spec/?ref=chrismessina.me) and the sadly misguided [attempt to call this effort a microformat](http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-December/007884.html?ref=chrismessina.me), the goal is a worthy one, and given the [recent question on the OpenID General list](http://openid.net/pipermail/general/2007-April/002238.html?ref=chrismessina.me) about the same quandary, I thought I'd share my thoughts on the matter. For one thing, avatar solutions should focus on visible data, [just as microformats do](http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-October/006707.html?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- as opposed to hidden and/or spammable meta tags. To that end, whatever convention is adopted or promoted should reflect existing standards. Frankly, the [hcard](http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard?ref=chrismessina.me) microformat already provides a mechanism for identifying avatars with its "photo" attribute. In fact, if you look at my [demo hcard](http://factoryjoe.com/hcard.html?ref=chrismessina.me), you'll see how easy it would be to grab data from this page. There's no reason why other social networks couldn't adopt the same convention and make it easy to set a definitive profile for slurping out your current avatar. In terms of URI locating, I might recommend a standard convention that appends `avatar.jpg` to the end of an OpenID as a means of conveniently discovering an avatar, [like so](http://factoryjoe.com/avatar.jpg?ref=chrismessina.me). This concept follows the [favicon.ico convention](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favicon?ref=chrismessina.me) of sticking the `favicon.ico` file in the root directory of a site, and then using this icon in bookmarks. There's no reason why, when URLs come to represent people, we can't do the same thing for avatars. Now, off of this idea is probably my most radical suggestion, and I know that when people shoot me down for it, it's because I'm right, but just early (as usual). Instead of a miserly 80 pixels square, I think that default personal avatars should be 512 pixels square (yes, a full 262,144 pixels rather than today's 6,400). There are a couple reasons and potential benefits for this: 1. Leopard's [resolution independence](http://developer.apple.com/releasenotes/GraphicsImaging/RN-ResolutionIndependentUI/?ref=chrismessina.me) supports [icons that are 512px square](http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/223/resolution-independent-fever?ref=chrismessina.me) (a good place to draw convention). These avatars could end up being very useful on the desktop (see Apple's [Front Row](http://www.apple.com/imac/frontrow.html?ref=chrismessina.me)). 2. While 80 pixels might be a useful size in an application, it's often less than useful when trying to recognize someone in a lineup. 3. We have the bandwidth. We have the digital cameras and iSights. I'm tired of squinting when the technology is there to fix the problem. 4. It provides a high fidelity source to scale into different contortions for other uses. Trying blowing up an 80 pixel image to 300 pixels. Yuck! 5. If such a convention is indeed adopted, as [favicon.ico](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favicon?ref=chrismessina.me) was, we should set the bar much higher (or bigger) from the get-go So, a couple points to close out. When I was designing [Flock](http://flock.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), I wanted to push a larger *subscribable* personal avatar standard so that we could offer richer, more personable (though hopefully not as male-dominated) interfaces like this one (featuring Technorati's staff at the time): [](http://www.flickr.com/photo.gne?id=102993817&ref=chrismessina.me)In order to make this work across sites, we'd need some basic convention that folks could use in publishing avatars. Even today, avatars vary from one site to the next in [both size and shape](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157600039492652/?ref=chrismessina.me). This really doesn't make sense. With the advent of OpenID and URL-based identity mashed up with microformats, it makes *even less* sense, though I understand that needs do vary. So, on top of providing the basic convention for locating an avatar on the end of an OpenID (`http://tld.com/avatar.jpg`), why not use server-side transforms to also provide various avatar sizes, in multiples of 16, like: `avatar.jpg` (original, 512x512) `avatar_256.jpg`, `avatar_128.jpg`, `avatar_48.jpg`, `avatar_32.jpg`, `avatar_16.jpg`. This is similar to the Apple icon `.icns` format ... I see no reason why we can't move forward with better and richer representations of people. Onward! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Gary Barber](http://manwithnoblog.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-21 23:18:58 nice idea always considered why not on the Microformats photo class as an avatar. I like the idea of combining it into open id, makes sense. Problem with the 512x512 avatar is YOU have the bandwidth. YOU have the digital cameras and iSights. What about considering the rest of the internet that is not on massive bandwidth pipes like in parts of the US and the EU. Don't assume the world is like your user experience. As we are reminded constantly, it's not. **[Ludwig Wendzich](http://ludwignz.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-21 23:19:32 I think this is a great idea. Creating standards like this allows for better innovation and computability. Most problems stem from the lack of a standard (for example the idea of moving from social network to social network being difficult because you need to re-add all of your friends.) If there were standards for these types of things, along with OpenID these things could be fixed. ie. domain.com/friends.xml domain.com/avatar.jpg domain.com/favicon.ico domain.com/hcard.xml etc **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-21 23:30:41 @Gary: I take your point, but think that a 512px avatar isn't actually that heavy when compared to the kind of video being passed around the web today. And, even the worst digital cameras don't take photos less than 640x480\. So, I think that you're right in that we should be sensitive to the fact that not everyone has the same access, but on the other hand, I did provide a method for grabbing smaller files -- and think that this concept is more about future proofing against a standard like 80px square which you can't resample up from. @Ludwig: if I could tweak your suggestions... there's no reason why you couldn't combine all the pieces you mentioned into one `hcard.html` (HTML, not XML filetype) -- with the avatar, person details and friends depicted with XFN. Again, part of the other goal is to focus on visible data, not hidden meta data. But absolutely -- this gets one step closer to a portable persona and friends network. **[Ludwig Wendzich](http://ludwignz.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-21 23:39:03 @Chris - Very true, no reason why everything should be spread around and separate from each other. May I ask what's the this truthiness rating from 30Boxes? I googled but couldn't find anything. Do you know how it works and what type of rating is good? (I'm guessing 9 is good and 1 is bad since you are a 9 :D ) **[Leisa Reichelt](http://disambiguity.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-22 01:35:33 I have no drama with a 512 pixel square avatar - I just want to never have to re-make one to suit the particular size requirements that whatever particular site I'm using has seemingly randomly decided on. :) **Mattias** ¡ 2007-04-22 03:17:40 "why not use server-side transforms(...)" Why not let the server side do what it do best, serve, and let the client do the math? And at the same time dodge the problem of bandwith Gary was talking about. Let say the client, a blogging platform, got an OpenID and needs an avatar the size of 80x80\. The easy way would be to embed a php-script in an image tag like such: -img src="getavatar.php?openid=\[openid\]" height="80" width="80"- Then the getavatar.php-script appends avatar\_80.jpg to the openid and requests it, assuming square 80x80 px dimensions. If the script got a response, all is good, cache and output. If the script got a 404, the script tries to append the default "avatar.jpg" and request it, assuming 512x512 px. If response, resize to 80x80, cache and output. And if the server still doesn't answer, the script outputs some default graphics, "no avatar" (or perhaps "baby"). This results in one/two request which may be 200, 404-200, 404-404\. And the openid-owner with expensive bandwith (Gary) only serves a cheap tiny 80x80 at the cost of manually maintaining all the avatar\_xxx.jpg desired. The openid-owner who has all the bandwith money can buy (or is just plain lazy) simply maintains a single avatar.jpg which gets transformed all over the world. This translates nicely to some other client wanting a 256x256 avatar, a third one wanting some random 49x49, and so-on. It even scales upwards with some random client wanting a 1024x1024\. If the openid-owner is using such a client/service and knowing that provides an "avatar\_1024.jpg" all is good. Then of course the client can't fall back on avatar.jpg since it is 512x512\. Tough luck. No avatar. You could even argue format-choice with clients requesting something like: "avatar\_xxx.png", "avatar\_xxx.jpg", "avatar.png", "avatar.jpg". More requests tho that might produce an awful lot of 404-footprints. My vote is with 512x512 as a standard for "avatar.jpg" given that Leopard-argument and that a face can be decently compressed to about \~50k with those dimensions and even as low as 20k (if your face is compatible with jpeg-artifacts). **[apparently.me.uk - On Discoverable Avatars](http://www.apparently.me.uk/8714.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-22 04:04:55 \[...\] Messina has written about a possible new standard for avatar discovery. I agree with many of his premises, but few of his \[...\] **[Frank 'viperteq' Young](http://7andacrescent.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-22 05:08:44 Chris, I like this idea. How do we get the various Internet bigwigs to try it out though? **[Don MacAskill](http://onethumb.smugmug.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-22 07:40:06 Great idea! Just one thing: the client should really do the appropriate sizing, not the server. Just one more thing: For some idiotic reason, web browsers \*suck\* at resampling images. They all use bilinear filtering rather than something reasonable like bicubic or lanczos or, really, anything that looks decent. You'd think this would have been remedied in at least Firefox by now, but no such luck. (SmugMug would gladly pay some hacker to do it if anyone is up to the task. Drop me a note.) **Mattias** ¡ 2007-04-22 08:52:12 I'm not set up with an OpenID yet and still I got so inspired that I created a php-script that will generate various avatar dimension from a password protected form upload. It's pretty basic and more of a PoC on managing several avatar dimensions on your own web site. http://tools.randomuse.org/avatargenerator/ **[Alison Mary Wheeler](http://id.alisonwheeler.com/id?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-22 14:11:44 A simple solution and probably workable for the simple cases, but I'm at least one of the people who would want to have more than a single avatar available despite utilising the same openid. Ideally, anyway ... **Mattias** ¡ 2007-04-23 02:40:14 @Alison: Couldn't that special need be handled by some more specialized service, like gravatar? One openid, one avatar.jpg, one hcard.xml, etc. = a "standard", in the web sense, that could be extended with non-standard additions. These non-standard additions then becomes new standards if everyone decides to use them. But there has to be a first and Chris' suggestion seem like a damn good start to me. **[Shoob » Blog Archive » links for 2007-04-23](http://www.shoob.com/index.php/2007/04/23/links-for-2007-04-23/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-23 08:19:50 \[...\] Raising the standard for avatars Chris Messina se penche sur les avatars . Il nous partage une idÊe qu’il avait essayÊ de pousser sur Flock pour trouver un format avatar à l’instar des microformats. (tags: microformats openid identity standards web) \[...\] **[hugh don](http://www.thws.cn/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-24 20:36:32 It's sounds like a good idea! **Edward O'Connor** ¡ 2007-04-27 13:27:21 [Fixed URIs like robots.txt and favicon.ico are bad](http://bitworking.org/news/No%5FFishing?ref=chrismessina.me), but otherwise I love the idea. Perhaps something along the lines of feed autodiscovery would be workable? (Also, somethings messed up with your OpenID auth -- I've had to leave that field blank in order to comment at all.) **[Daniel E. Renfer](http://kronkltd.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-27 19:08:56 I agree with Edward that magic URLs are something that we should probably be avoiding. Personally, I'd rather see people linking to a FOAF file (or hCard or RDFa if you prefer) and from there provide links to the various resolutions of avatars. While FOAF can be difficult at times for the average user, a couple highly ranked tutorials providing people the text that they can copy/paste would take care of that. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-28 09:41:08 Yeah, I now believe that magic URLs are also a bad idea and that something more like rel-avatar or rel-photo in the context of an hcard should suffice. **[Arun Vijayan](http://webforth.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-04 12:38:04 It was fantastic. I too was thinking about Avatars in the same way. Magic URLs are really not good. With RubyonRails, Codeigniter and similar 'next gen' web frameworks won't support serving a JPEG from web root (ocourse u can hack it though). Probably Mattias' idea must work better. I look forward to see how it goes. But ultimately we need a reputation management and aggregation system which does all these (friends,avatars,profile,geolocation). Will MySpace think this way? Will they setup openIDs for members (like AOL did)? **[Alper ÇuÄŸun](http://alper.nl/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-15 02:44:18 Let's just do this. We wanted to include avatars on our weblog FourStarters.com and my friend Cristiano added some kind of plugin to pull these from MyBlogLog. We had some minor issues configuring mybloglog, but why should we use yet another third party site to store profile information when most of this is already in OpenID. FourStarters supports OpenID for comments (with wpopenid) already, pulling in the avatars from there looks like a tiny step. hCard already has class="photo". So what to do? Embed or link hCard to your openid? **[Four Starters - » OpenAvatar - Combining OpenID and hCard](http://fourstarters.com/2007/05/21/openavatar-combining-openid-and-hcard/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-21 01:09:25 \[...\] by the recent post by Chris Messina (“Raising the standard for avatars”), I started to think how we could do this using \[...\] **[sylvia](http://bakakappuru.blogspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-11 01:40:09 omg i was searching 'avatar' in Google images and yours popped up.... weird. lol how the hell you been? **[links for 2008-04-01 | Chris Dalby Untangles Networks](http://www.yellowpark.net/cdalby/index.php/2008/04/01/links-for-2008-04-01/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-01 15:37:55 \[...\] FactoryCity Âť Raising the standard for avatars Bloody good ideas for standards on avatars. Just the sort of thing I was thinking for @chinposin. (tags: chinposin avatars standards hcard) \[...\] ### Getting back to POSH (Plain ol' Semantic HTML) URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/getting-back-to-posh-plain-ol-semantic-html/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:53.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/pgoyette/130739790/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Original photo](http://www.flickr.com/photos/pgoyette/130739790/?ref=chrismessina.me) by [paul goyette](http://locussolus.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and shared under the [Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 license](http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/?ref=chrismessina.me).Following [Web2Expo](http://www.web2expo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)/[Open](http://www.socialtext.net/web2open/index.cgi?ref=chrismessina.me), a number of us got together for a [Microformats dinner at Thirsty Bear](http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner?ref=chrismessina.me). Some concern was raised over the increasing influx of proposals for new microformats -- instead of sustained work on existing formats or techniques. In discussing this, we realized a few things. Chief among them is that, as a community, we've been spending a great deal of time and effort providing a rationale and explanation for why microformats are important and how we use a community-driven process to derive new microformats. Now, there are historic reasons why [our process](http://microformats.org/wiki/process?ref=chrismessina.me) is different and why we continually refer new members to it. If you consider that web standards themselves are created, reviewed and ratified by the [W3C](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W3c?ref=chrismessina.me), a consortium of [paying members](http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List?ref=chrismessina.me) bound to very specific rules and mandates, you'll realize that the value of our community's output is measurable by the degree to which we are able to consistently produce high quality, clear and implementable specifications. Without adherence to recognized process, chaos would unfold and we'd end up with a myriad of inconsistent and overlapping formats, which is what essentially killed the [Structured Blogging](http://structuredblogging.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) initiative. In the microformats community, it's existing behavior discovered through research and prior standards work that most often leads to new formats, and this work is often undertaken and championed by independent individuals, as opposed to corporations. On top of that, our self-imposed mandate is to stay specific, focused and relevant, optimizing for the 80% use cases and ignoring the 20% edge cases. This story has been replayed and retold the world over, with great effect and consequence. What we have failed to articulate in the same time and space, however, is what work is necessary *beyond* the creation of *new* microformats. And because of that, we have more so many folks joining the community, eager to help, and seeing only the opportunity to -- what else? -- create a new microformat ([in spite of the warning](http://microformats.org/wiki/process?ref=chrismessina.me#Propose%5Fa%5FMicroformat) to not do so!)! So, the ultimate result of the conversation that night was to focus on a [rebranding of an old idea](http://microformats.org/wiki/posh?ref=chrismessina.me#Why) along with a new process for generally getting involved in the microformats movement with a [subset of tasks focused exclusively on advancing POSH](http://microformats.org/wiki/posh?ref=chrismessina.me#The%5FPOSH%5FProcess). From now on, we will now be promoting [POSH](http://microformats.org/wiki/posh?ref=chrismessina.me)(as [coined by kwijibo](http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2007-04-06?ref=chrismessina.me#T091456) in IRC)as a first order priority, alongside the development and improvement of existing microformats. POSH ("**P**lain **O**ld **S**emantic **H**TML") is a [very old idea](http://microformats.org/wiki/posh?ref=chrismessina.me#plain%5Fold%5Fsemantic%5FHTML), and constitutes the superset of [semantic patterns](http://tantek.com/log/2002/12.html?ref=chrismessina.me#L20021216t2238) within which microformats [exist](http://tantek.com/log/2002/12.html?ref=chrismessina.me#L20021231t1850): [](http://www.flickr.com/photo.gne?id=466866246&ref=chrismessina.me)With POSH thusly established, we have enumerated four classes of actions that collectively represent a *Process for Contributing* in order to better channel the energy of new-comers and old-timers alike: 1. **Publish**: if you're not already, add valid, [semantic markup](http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-html?ref=chrismessina.me) to your own website. It goes without saying that you should also be publishing microformats wherever it makes sense. Focus on improving the web as it is and that you have access to. 2. [**Spread**](http://microformats.org/wiki/posh?ref=chrismessina.me#Spread%5FPOSH): advocate for and encourage others to follow your lead in implementing valid POSH and microformats. Familiarize yourself with web standards, accessibility, and why POSH is important. Do [presentations](http://microformats.org/wiki/posh?ref=chrismessina.me#POSH%5FPresentations) on POSH at BarCamps and elsewhere; write about it, share it with friends, hold [POSH Pits](http://mashpit.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) to create and build things with POSH. [Add buttons](http://microformats.org/wiki/posh?ref=chrismessina.me#Spread%5FPOSH) (coming soon) to your site once you've been POSHified! 3. **Use**: consume microformats -- and better yet -- add live subscriptions to data marked up in existing formats. With all the microformats [implementations in the wild](http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations?ref=chrismessina.me), we need to start seeing some really innovative and time-saving uses of microformats, including tools for easily embedding microformatted content into blog posts and elsewhere. 1. [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me): meanwhile, consider adding OpenID identity services to your application or service -- and support [hcard](http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard?ref=chrismessina.me) and [XFN](http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn?ref=chrismessina.me) data syncing. 4. [**Improve**](http://microformats.org/wiki/posh?ref=chrismessina.me#Improve%5FPOSH): once you've gone through and added POSH to all your websites, go back and refactor, iterate and provide feedback, tips and learnings about what you did, [how you did it](http://microformats.org/wiki/posh?ref=chrismessina.me#POSH%5FTutorials) and why you did things the way you did to the greater community. Tag your posts with 'POSH', [contribute them to the wiki](http://microformats.org/wiki/posh?ref=chrismessina.me#POSH%5FBlog%5Fposts) and generally seek out opportunities for improving the [resources](http://microformats.org/wiki/posh?ref=chrismessina.me#Resources) available to the wider audience of web designers and programmers. In the coming days, we'll be adding more documentation to the wiki and [encouraging others](http://redmonk.net/archives/2007/04/19/is-your-blogsitepresentation-posh/?ref=chrismessina.me) to spread the word (as you should!). Lastly, to help frame the POSH concept, think of of it as a "Fast-tracked Microformats Process" -- wherein you can do your research, develop semantic patterns and then implement them without going through the same drawn out process that accepted formats must go through... because the goal is actually not to develop a new format, but to solve a specific and time-sensitive problem. Over time, these implementations will come to represent the body of prior art necessary to make informed decisions about future formats, but the immediate goal is to simply POSHify the web and not attempt the development of yet another format. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[samksethi](http://samksethi.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-21 02:32:00 Hi Chris Good summary + call to action. Thought you might consider changing the process of contribution to PUSH. Publish Use Spread Help(Improve) Be POSH and PUSH **[Neil Ford](http://smudgypixels.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-21 03:18:15 Have been looking at 'microformating' my blog since seeing a presentation by Glenn Jones, this is yet another reason to do so. Looks like I'm going to have to learn how to wrangle Wordpress better... and go some buy some new books. - Neil. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-21 08:17:53 Neil, if you start with themes like [K2](http://getk2.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Sandbox](http://www.plaintxt.org/themes/sandbox/?ref=chrismessina.me), most of the work is done for you already. There are also widgets (like the [hCard About widget](redmonk.net/archives/2007/04/18/wordpress-widget-hcard-about-box/)) that are also useful. You don't necessarily need to get into the code in order to add semantics -- sometimes it's just using the tools that are already available! **[yashke.com » Warto być POSH](http://yashke.com/2007/04/21/warto-byc-posh/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-21 08:24:01 \[...\] Chris Messina: Getting back to POSH (Plain ol’ Semantic HTML) \[...\] **[Neil Ford](http://smudgypixels.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-21 08:31:43 Chris, thank you for the advice and the pointers. Am off to investigate now. - Neil. **[Sam Rose](http://claimid.com/samrose?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-24 05:18:22 I am one of the people guilty of immediately imagining a thousand new microformats upon becoming interested in the idea. Although, I've also been really interested in the deployment of existing microformats, particularly in wiki. The idea of having a POSH layer of development connected in this way really helps me think about how to solve the different problems I've been brainstorming, without cluttering microformats communities. So, thanks for working this out. **[People Over Process » Blog Archive » links for 2007-04-27](http://www.redmonk.com/cote/2007/04/27/links-for-2007-04-27/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-26 23:31:09 \[...\] Getting back to POSH (Plain ol’ Semantic HTML) (tags: html posh web) \[...\] **[sprungmarker » POSH: ein weiterer Neologismus](http://www.sprungmarker.de/2007/04/29/posh-ein-weiterer-neologismus/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-29 05:59:19 \[...\] zu verwenden und besonders beim Erarbeiten von Standards bei Microformaten unterstĂźtzen. (via Getting back to POSH - FactoryCity) Diese Icons verzweigen auf soziale Netzwerke bei denen Nutzer neue Inhalte finden \[...\] **Josh** ¡ 2007-05-01 14:17:18 Please do not call it POSH. POSH is a terrible name for it. This is Web 2.0 cutesy naming at its worst. I'm excited about microformats, but this word is making me ill. **[Altro nome, stessa sostanza... « Quelli di NewsTech](http://newstechnology.wordpress.com/2007/05/04/altro-nome-stessa-sostanza/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-04 05:26:49 \[...\] letture meritevoli sono Posh Patterns di Jeremy Keith, The importance of being POSH di Tantek e Getting back to POSH di Chris Messina. Ecco alcune considerazioni riassuntive e \[...\] **[Review Program » links for 2007-04-23](http://reviewprogram.com/?p=980&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-05 07:59:57 \[...\] Getting back to POSH (Plain ol’ Semantic HTML) at FactoryCity POSH (â€Â?Plain Old Semantic HTMLâ€Â?) is a very old idea, and constitutes the superset of semantic patterns within which microformats exist: (tags: html microformats semantic semanticweb web webdesign xhtml posh patterns) \[...\] **[Web standards still have a long way to go | Intentionally - The Education of Sean Johnson](http://www.sean-johnson.com/2007/05/06/web-standards-still-have-a-long-way-to-go/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-06 20:03:25 \[...\] I first read this I thought to myself, “Do we really to start a movement to evangelize semantic HTML? \[...\] **[xDebate and POSH « CodeCorps](http://codecorps.wordpress.com/2007/05/07/xdebate-and-posh/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-07 04:31:04 \[...\] 7 May 2007 xDebate and POSH Posted by codecorps under xDebate Chris Messina and others have been beating the drum slowly for the notion of Plain Old Semantic HTML, or POSH. \[...\] **[La domo de karotoj » POSH](http://kechjo.cogia.net/blogo/2007/05/24/posh/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-23 23:26:03 \[...\] La geuloj ĉe Mikroformatoj (mi ankoraÅ­ ne komprenas la punkton de tiuj) faris la akrinimon POSH (en la angla “posh” havas la signifon de “eleganta”) por ordinara semantika HTML. \[...\] **[sprungmarker » POSH: ein weiterer Neologismus | Artikel von Sylvia Egger](http://www.sprungmarker.de/2007/posh-ein-weiterer-neologismus/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-04-19 11:46:05 \[...\] HTML zu verwenden und besonders beim Erarbeiten von Standards bei Microformaten unterstĂźtzen. (via Getting back to POSH - \[...\] ### The importance of View Source URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-importance-of-view-source/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:52.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photo.gne?id=462575017&ref=chrismessina.me)There's been a long history of innovation on the web founded in open access to the underlying source code that first websites, then later interactive web applications, were built on. The facility of having ready access to the inner workings of any web page has been tantamount to continued inspiration, imitation, and most importantly, the ongoing education of subsequent generations of designer-developer hybrids. On my panel today on [*The Hybrid Designer*](http://www.conferenceer.com/2/panels/452?ref=chrismessina.me), I took a moment to call out my concerns that the shininess of Rich Internet Application (RIA) frameworks like [Apollo](http://adobe.com/go/apollo?ref=chrismessina.me) and [SilverLight](http://www.microsoft.com/silverlight?ref=chrismessina.me) (the framework [formerly known as WPF/E](http://blogs.zdnet.com/Stewart/?p=345&ref=chrismessina.me)) is blocking out critical consideration to the gravity and potential consequences of moving to these platforms. As [Marc Orchant](http://blogs.zdnet.com/Orchant/?ref=chrismessina.me) [put it](http://blogs.zdnet.com/Orchant/?p=409&ref=chrismessina.me): > One of the most interesting discussions in the session was precipitated when Messina voiced his concerns that "containers" for web functionality like Adobe Apollo and Microsoft Silver\[light\] would make it harder to create dynamic applications that leverage these data streams as they will, he predicted, created new "walled gardens" by obscuring what is currently a pretty open playing field of ideas and techniques. \[Jeremy\] Keith added the observation that by hiding the source for the hybrid applications created using these tool, up and coming designers would lose a valuable learning resource that runs counter to the spirit of a read/write web built using open, standardized tools. Needless to say, the room was pretty sympathetic to the sentiments expressed by the panel. In particular, I was suggesting that these frameworks effectively remove the View Source command -- an utter reversal in the trend towards openness in web technologies leading to, in my view, new silos within a more closed web. [Ryan Stewart](http://blogs.zdnet.com/Stewart/?ref=chrismessina.me), who sadly I didn't get a chance to catch up with afterwards, [took me to task](http://blogs.zdnet.com/Stewart/?p=347&ref=chrismessina.me) for my oversimplification: > Today at the Web 2.0 Expo, I sat in on a panel with Richard MacManus, Kelly Goto, Chris Messina and . They talked about the "hybrid designer" and touched on some points about the web and the richness that has really created the "hybrid" notion. In one bit, Chris said he was lamenting the fact that a lot of RIA technologies are taking away the "view source" and he got applause from the crowd. I think this is the perfect example of how misunderstood the RIA world is. Chris used the example of Apollo and Silverlight as two technologies that are killing view source. Apollo is meant for desktop applications. We don't have "view source" on the desktop, but that doesn't mean we couldn't. Apollo uses Flex and Ajax to create the desktop applications, and BOTH of those allow for view source. It's true that Flex developers can turn off that feature, but really how is that any different than obfuscating your JavaScript in an Ajax application? When people want to share, the RIA tools out there have mechanisms in place to let them do that. Can you ask for more than that? I was also surprised to hear Chris complain about Silverlight in that group. Of all the technologies, I think Silverlight actually has the best "view source" support. It uses JavaScript as the programming language behind the hood, and the XAML is just text based, so you can view source just like any other web page and see both the XAML and JavaScript libraries. That's pretty open I think. I'll plead ignorance here (especially in terms of Silverlight), but I refuse to back off from my point about the importance of View Source (a point that [I don't think Ryan disagrees with in principle](http://blogs.zdnet.com/Stewart/?p=340&ref=chrismessina.me)). Whether you can get at the "goods" in Silverlight or Apollo apps is only part of the problem. I've examined the contents of four or five Apollo apps and each one had any number of impenetrable `.swf` binaries that I couldn't do anything with, and even with the [complete source code](http://www.danieldura.com/source/twittercamp/?ref=chrismessina.me) of [TwitterCamp](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/04/twittercamp%5Fan.html?ref=chrismessina.me), a rather simple Apollo app, it wasn't obvious how a design-leaning *hybrid designer* like myself would actually modify the app without buying into expensive Adobe tools like [Flash](http://www.adobe.com/go/flash?ref=chrismessina.me) ($699) or [Flex Builder](www.adobe.com/products/flex/flexbuilder/) ($499). And that in sence, is no different than removing the View Source command altogether. ...and even when I finally did figure out that I could right click and choose View Source while running TwitterCamp, I received this error message and no source code: [](http://www.flickr.com/photo.gne?id=462587513&ref=chrismessina.me)Now, Ryan also claims that We don't have "view source" on the desktop, and I would argue that 1) it depends on your platform and 2) I'm not fundamentally *prevented from tinkering* with my desktop apps. And this is key. Let's drill down for a moment. On the Mac, every application has the equivalent of a View Source command: simply right click and choose "Show Package Contents". Since every Mac application is essentially a special kind of folder, you can actually browse the contents and resources of an application -- and, in certain cases, make changes. Now, this isn't as good as getting to the raw source, since there are still unusable binaries in those directories, but you can at least [get to the nib files and make changes to the look and feel of an application](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/03/04/customizing-the-quicksilver-cube-interface/?ref=chrismessina.me) without necessarily touching code or having the full source. And so just like on the web, especially with free and open source tools like [Firebug](http://www.getfirebug.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Greasemonkey](http://www.greasespot.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), with a little bit of knowledge or persistence, you can modify, tweak or [wholly customize your experience](http://lifehacker.com/software/gmail/lifehacker-code-better-gmail-firefox-extension-251923.php?ref=chrismessina.me) without getting permission from the application creator all by way of "viewing the source". More importantly, you can learn from, adapt and merge prior art -- source code that you've found elsewhere -- and that, in turn, can be improved upon and release, furthering a virtuous cycle of innovation and education. Nonetheless, I'm glad that Ryan has corrected me, especially about Silverlight, which indeed is put together with a lot of plain-text technologies. However, I still can't help but be skeptical when there seems to be so much in it [for Adobe and Microsoft to build out their own islands of the web](http://blogs.zdnet.com/Stewart/?p=348&ref=chrismessina.me) where people buy only their tools and live in prefab Second Life worlds of quasi-standards that have been embraced and extended. It feels like dĂŠjĂ  vu all over again; like we've been here before and though I'd thought that we'd internalized the reasons for not returning to those dark ages, the shininess of the new impairs our ability to remember the not-so-distant past... While Ryan may be technically correct about the availability of the source, if that top-level menu item vanishes from the first-gen of RIAs, I remain increasingly concerned that the net result will constitute the emergence of an increasingly closed and siloed web. I do hope that Ryan's optimism, coupled with activism from other open source and open web advocates, will work with great speed and efficacy to counter my fears and keep that which is now the most open and vital aspect of the web the way it is now and the way it was meant to be. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **JRF** ¡ 2007-04-17 07:37:57 Opening a .app package is a far cry from View Source. It isn't really any different from resource hacking with ResEdit. The bundle contents can be as opaque or transperent as the developer desires. The same goes for Apollo or Flex applications. Also the Flex and Apollo SDKs are free as in beer. You only need to pay if you want the shiny buttons the IDE provides. TextMate + SDK work fine. **[Jason D-](http://jpdefillippo.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-17 09:13:51 Factoryjoe++ **[Ian McKellar](http://ian.mckellar.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-17 09:26:29 I think the *freedom to tinker* is a key, fundamental freedom whose importance is growing as we depend more and more on software and computer hardware. The lack of access to the source code of web services is just as scary to me as the incomprehensibility of .swf files. I expect that Silverlight will be fairly transparent. I think Microsoft have learned the value of View Source more than Adobe have. Adobe has built it's empire on write-only formats. The tool that I think is perhaps more important than View Source is DOM Inspector (and probably Firebug). To be able to look at the running state of the application and tinker with it is more valuable in many ways than just being able to read the source. **[Ming Jack Po](http://www.jackpo.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-18 18:09:58 I don't think the lack of a "view source" is a fatal flaw (i.e. flash became the favorite toy for young web designers for a while without having a view source). However, I completely agree that having a view source does level the playing field quite a bit on the web. I also learned web programming through the magic of view source! **[John Manoogian III](http://jm3.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-18 21:47:45 well stated. View-Source is a feature, not a bug, and one that has taught countless people how to code, including me. i've always had uneasy feelings about opaque file formats. from search transparency to mobile compatibility, attempts to "rebuild" the web using new formats with little (R)'s or (TM)'s attached usually ends in tears. **[People Over Process » Blog Archive » links for 2007-04-19](http://www.redmonk.com/cote/2007/04/19/links-for-2007-04-19/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-18 23:25:52 \[...\] The importance of View Source at FactoryCity (tags: goodenough wpf/e viewsource web apollo flex ria programming) \[...\] **[Around the web | alexking.org](http://alexking.org/blog/2007/04/22/around-the-web?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-22 22:06:46 \[...\] The importance of View Source at FactoryCity \[...\] **mike chambers** ¡ 2007-04-24 18:51:32 fyi View source is possible within Apollo, both within Flash based, and HTML based applications. The difference though, is that it is up to the developer on whether they want to allow it. You can see an example of view source in a Flash based Apollo application in the eBay application. Video here: http://www.demo.com/demonstrators/demo2007/91259.php (toward the end of the video). As far as the error with the TwitterCamp app, that is simply a bug in Apollo (which is an alpha). The issue is that the wrong URL is generated and passed to the browser. This will be fixed. Finally, you can compile TwitterCamp with the free Flex SDK, which among other things, includes a compiler. More info at: http://www.flex.org/ mike chambers mesh@adobe.com **[John Manoogian III](http://jm3.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-24 20:55:57 Mike: Can you share any URLs of Apollo apps with view source enabled? I'm a Flash developer since the FutureSplash days and I've never seen a Flash asset that was view-sourceable without a decompiler. I'm anxious to see this new capability! **[Ryan Stewart - Rich Internet Application Mountaineer » A Place For the "Open" Web and the "Closed" Web](http://blog.digitalbackcountry.com/?p=786&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-29 03:48:00 \[...\] catching up with some of my trackbacks I found a great post by Chris Messina about the importance of view source as Rich Internet Applications start to take off. He wrote it as an addendum to his panel at Web 2.0 \[...\] **[Scott Barnes](http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-09 17:44:19 If you rename a .xap to .zip you'll have your source code? much like if i view source now on this blog, all i'd get is the rendered result not so much the actual source. Instead i have to ask you for a copy of it and then would you be willing to provide it as-is. That being said, if the end user whom creates and produces Silverlight solutions CHOOSES to withhold the actual source than it's their right to do so and one that we should all openly respect. Just like on the footer of your blog, whereby you've opted to protect the content under the Creative Non-Commmerical share license - where it specifies certain restrictions like Commercial usage forbidden - as you've just outlined a restraint in the openness of which you've just stated should occur. I've also noted that whilst View Source is freely available in JavaScript/HTML it's not always helpful or useful. A lot of the times i've seen folks obsfucate their JavaScript to ensure it adds extra layers of complexity to those whom wish to reverse engineer it. - Scott Barnes Rich Platforms Product Manager Microsoft. **[Chris Messina](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-09 18:01:50 Thanks Scott. I appreciate your point — it's a valid one. My premise is that content published on the web should be as open and inspectable as possible. In fact, you more or less can get the source of my blog if you download WordPress and the Sandbox theme. Your browser will also give you access to my CSS file and you can readily download all the plugins that I use to power this blog. But that's not really what I'm talking about. The problem that I have with platforms like Silverlight and Air is that, by default, it seems \*easier\* to choose to make the code harder to get at — or to require expensive tools to tinker around with an app — or to have some strange build process that doesn't work cross-platform — where I have the biggest problem. If you guys put all the effort that you put into Silverlight into open, freely implementable standards that ended up in web browsers that worked cross-platform, I'd have very little grounds to give you shit since the browser, by default, exposes the inner working a webpage with View Source (even if it's obfuscated). Instead, the Silverlight approach to the web leads to more fragmentation and the need to download yet another plugin, which I refuse to do. There is so much promise with HTML5 and CSS3 that I can't conceive of why you're continuing to go down the path of inventing your own proprietary stack for building on the web that I must presume that you continue to wish to compete with it, rather than improve upon and unify it. **[Scott Barnes](http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2009-03-09 18:11:55 We're inventing our own approach to the plugin because it's what our customers have requested. There's no hidden meaning, it's simply free trade working in full view. Whilst I take your point that having view source can help those come to terms with how HTML/JS/CSS works in general, it doesn't always work that way in reality. Out of the % of developers around the world, most would yield their answers to the "how" things work via blogs, tutorials or simply conversations. If a developer or designer wants access to someone elses work, simply ask? the worst they can say is no or don't answer. I disagree that you feel it's your right to view otjher peoples work and there's a lot of flaws in your arguement, point and case - how do i get access to the source code in this blog via "View Source". At what point do you define the safe open source boundaries? - Scott Barnes Rich Platforms Product Manager Microsoft. **[Sam Pullara](https://me.yahoo.com/spullara?ref=chrismessina.me#fea0e)** ¡ 2009-03-09 19:38:01 This is actually one of the places where I see that Apple is truly innovating by pushing on the CSS standard to do things that I think people never really invisioned. Their implementation of animations and 3D transforms using plain text CSS is really compelling, especially if you can easily fallback to more traditional markup when the feature isn't present. Degraded experience is another problem with the plugin model. **[WorldWideWeb, 30 years on – Dan Q](https://danq.me/2019/02/20/worldwideweb/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2019-02-20 03:27:25 \[…\] standards, natural and by-design progressive enhancement, and the future-proof archivability of human-readable code. Long live the \[…\] ### The relative value of open source to open services URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-relative-value-of-open-source-to-open-services/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:51.000Z There's an [active debate](http://activecollab.com/blog/37/status-update-followup/?ref=chrismessina.me#objectComments) going on in the [activeCollab](http://activecollab.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) community stemming from the [announcement](http://activecollab.com/blog/36/status-update/?ref=chrismessina.me) that the formerly exclusively community-backed open source project will lose much of its open source trappings to go commercial and focus a closed platform providing open web services. For those who aren't aware, [activeCollab](http://activecollab.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) was created as a free, open source and downloadable response to [Basecamp](http://basecamphq.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), the project management web app. In June of last year, the project founder and lead developer, Ilija Studen, [offered his rationale for creating activeCollab](http://activecollab.com/blog/1/why-is-activecollab-free/?ref=chrismessina.me): > First version of activeCollab was written somewhere about May 2005 for personal use. **I wanted Basecamp but didn’t want to pay for it.** Being a student with few freelance jobs I just couldn’t guaranty that I’ll have money for it every month. So I made one for myself. It’s running on my localhost even today. **Emphasis* original.*Ilija offered many of the usual *personal* reasons for making his project free and open: - Learning. - Control. - Establishing community. - *Earning money.* Now, the last one is significant, for a couple reasons, as was pointed out at the time of the first release: Ilija wanted to make money by offering commercial support and customization on a product imitating someone else's established commercial product. But competition is good, especially for [my friends in Chicago](http://37signals.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), and [they've said as much](http://techcrunch.com/2006/07/06/bascamp-faces-competition-in-free-alternative/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment-93579). But, Ilija made one fatal mistake in his [introductory post](http://activecollab.com/blog/1/why-is-activecollab-free/?ref=chrismessina.me) that I think he's come to regret nearly a year later: I find it normal to expect something in return for your work. **activeCollab will always be free**. And so a community of Basecamp-haters and open source freeloaders gathered around the project and around Ilija, eager to build something to rival the smug success of Basecamp, something sprung from the head of the gods of open source and of necessity, to retrace the steps of Phoenix before it (later redubbed Firefox), to fight the evils of capitalism, the injustice of proprietary code, and to stave off the economic realities of trying to make a living creating open source software. For a little under a year, the project slogged on, a [happy alternative to Basecamp](http://techcrunch.com/2006/07/06/bascamp-faces-competition-in-free-alternative/?ref=chrismessina.me), perfect for small groups without the ability to afford its shiny cousin, perfect for those who refuse to pay for software, and perfect for those who need such collaboration tools, but [live sheltered behind a firewall](http://jayallen.org/journey/2005/04/help%5Fproject%5Fmanagement%5Fsoftware?ref=chrismessina.me). A funny thing happened on the way to the bank, though, and Ilija realized that simply offering the code for people to download, modify and run on their own servers wasn't earning him nearly enough to live on. And without an active ecosystem built around activeCollab (as [WordPress](http://wordpress.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Drupal](http://drupal.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) have), it was hard to keep developing the core when he literally was [not able to afford continuing to doing so](http://www.activecollab.com/blog/35/features-come-with-price/?ref=chrismessina.me). Thus to [decision to break from his previous promise](http://www.activecollab.com/blog/36/status-update/?ref=chrismessina.me) and close up the code and offer instead an open API on which others could build plugins and services -- morphing activeCollab from a *commodity download* to a *pay-for web service*: > Perhaps I am naive, and this was the business model all along. i.e. Build a community for the free software during early development and testing, then close it up just as the project matures.That was not original plan. Original plan was to build a software and make money from support and customization services. After a while we agreed that that would not be the best way to go. We will let other teams do custom development while we keep our focus solely on activeCollab. But, the way in which he went about announcing this change put the project and the health of his community at risk, as Jason [pointed out](http://activecollab.com/blog/37/status-update-followup/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment2732): > Ilja, I’m a professional brand strategist, and while nothing is ever certain, I also feel that this is a bad move. Essentially you’ve divided your following into three camps. For, against and don’t care. A terrible decision. What you should have done (or should do... its not too late)\_\_ —> Start a completely seperate, differently branded commercial service that offers professional services —> Leave your existing open-source model the same and continue to develop the project in concert with the community ————————- Sugar is not a great model to follow. It’s not. A better example would Bryyght\[dot\]com, a commercial company hosting Drupal CMS. The people there are still very actively involved in the original open-source project. Overall, you should choose your steps wisely. While you’re the driving source behind the project – NOBODY fully owns their own brand. A brand is owned by the community that are a part of it. Without customers, a brand is nothing. JH **A brand is owned by the community that are a part of it. Without customers, a brand is nothing.**(Hmm, sounds like the theory behind the [Community Mark](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/14/the-case-for-community-marks/?ref=chrismessina.me)). I think JH has a point, and with regards to open source, one that Ilija [would do well to consider](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/03/18/because-of-open-source/?ref=chrismessina.me). On the one hand, Ilija [has every right](http://activecollab.com/blog/37/status-update-followup/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment2753) to change the course of the project -- he started it after all and has done [the lion's share of work](http://www.activecollab.com/blog/18/license-change/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment698). He also needs to figure out a way to make a living, and now, having tried one model, is ready to try another. On the other, closing up the core means that he has to work extra hard to *counter the perception* that activeCollab is not an open source project, when indeed, parts of it still will be, and likely, won't be the worse for it. That [many of the original](http://activecollab.com/blog/37/status-update-followup/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment2550) [Basecamp haters](http://activecollab.com/blog/37/status-update-followup/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment2568) who supported Ilija's work have now [turned their anger](http://activecollab.com/blog/37/status-update-followup/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment2543) [towards him](http://activecollab.com/blog/37/status-update-followup/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment2790) suggests that he's both pioneering a *tribrid* open business/open service/open source model and [doing something right](http://headrush.typepad.com/creating%5Fpassionate%5Fusers/2005/01/be%5Fbrave.html?ref=chrismessina.me). At least people care enough to express themselves... And yet, that's not to say that the path will be easy or clear. As with most projects, the test is now how he manages this transition that will make the difference, not that he made the decision. All the same, it does suggest that the open source community is [going through an evolution](http://news.com.com/Public+debate+on+GPL+3+draft+begins/2100-7344%5F3-6027393.html?ref=chrismessina.me) where the question of *what* to be open about and *with whom to share* is becoming a lot harder to answer than it once was. Or at least how to sustain open source efforts that play into facile operation as web services. With the [Honest Public License](http://funambol.com/blog/capo/files/HPL%5Fdraft.txt?ref=chrismessina.me) coming in advance of the [GPL v3](http://gplv3.fsf.org/draft?ref=chrismessina.me) to [cover the use](http://www.funambol.com/blog/capo/files/HPL%5Fredline.htm?ref=chrismessina.me) of [open source software in powering web applications and services](http://www.funambol.com/blog/capo/2006/08/honest-public-license.html?ref=chrismessina.me), there are obvious issues with releasing code that once you could count on being tied to the personal desktop... now with the hybridization of the desktop/internet environments and the democratization of scripting knowledge, it's a lot harder to make a living simply through customization and support services for packaged source code when you're competing against everyone and their aunt, not to mention [Yahoo](http://pipes.yahoo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Google](http://code.google.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and the rest. [Steve Ivy](http://redmonk.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) asked a poignant question in his recent post on [Open Source v. Open Services](http://redmonk.net/more/tech/open-source-open-services?ref=chrismessina.me): If the service is open enough, what’s the value of the source? Truly, that is a question that I think a lot of us, including folks like Ilija, are going to have to consider for some time to come. And as we do consider it, we must also consider what the sustainable models for open source and open services look like in the future, for we are now living finally living web service-based economy, where the quality of your execution and uptime matter nearly as much, if not more, than the quality of your source code. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **Mark Murphy** ¡ 2007-04-15 15:48:41 Regarding "If the service is open enough, what’s the value of the source?"... In theory, if the service is "open enough" (i.e., there are ways to export all your data) \*and\* people are diligent about backing up their data \*and\* if there's a close-enough substitute for the service that can directly use the exported data, then the service should be "open enough" for everyone. Having the software backing the service available as open source dramatically increases the odds that there will be a close-enough substitute. After all, anyone could grab the code and start hosting a clone of the service. Not all users of the original service may have the skills to launch a clone, or even run a private copy, but they still have the option of hiring somebody to do the same. So, if you use a Drupal-powered service, knowing that you could re-host somewhere else running Drupal and have a decent shot of getting your templates and content over in one piece is a good thing. Sans the source, it may be much more difficult to do anything with the backed-up data. Just because such-and-so service gives Aunt Millie the ability to dump her data as a .tar.gz blob of XML files by writing her own script to invoke a bunch of RESTful URLs doesn't mean that she will somehow be able to do anything about it. Heck, it may be tedious for somebody \*with\* the requisite tech skills to do anything meaningful with the data. Certainly fewer people will care about open source given an open service, particularly those for whom "open source" means "Who-hoo! I don't have to pay!". For those who look to open source for technology continuity, though, open services beat closed services but still aren't necessarily "open enough". **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-15 18:22:01 Good points Mark, especially from the community side of things. How does this situation though (effective data lock in through lack of effectual data portability) affect the developers trying to make a living? i.e. is it okay for them to create this kinda of de facto lock in (your data can be exported, but it's hard to use it) given their need to find a way to make a living? **[Andreas Gohr](http://www.splitbrain.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-15 22:57:49 Hmm, under which license was ActiveCollab released? Couldn't the community simply fork and continure development on a Open Source version. Similar to what happened with Mambo/Joomla. I also wonder of Ilja can even legally close the source. If it was licensed under an Open Source license like the GPL and he accepted code contributions from others, these contributions were surely done under the GPL as well. He could have a hard time to remove all code he doesn't wrote him self. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-15 23:34:11 There were folks who suggested forking a la Mambo/Joomla, but that gets to my point: you're suggesting that, instead of Ilija being able to make this into a business and leverage the value of his work, people should take his code, fork the project, and leave him in the lurch, having already invested a great deal of time and effort and having no income to show for it. I'm not bitter about Ilija changing his model -- I support him. In terms of closing the project, Ilija's said that very little outside contributions ever made it into the project, so he can either gut those pieces and clean it of outside IP or have the copyright owners assign their work to him or his new company. What I find curious is that you're not suggested ways for Ilija to make money off his work, but instead suggesting ways that I can leverage the value he's created without paying for it. How is he supposed to sustain himself if we can't figure out a model that works for both open source advocates and the developers writing the code? **[Andreas Gohr](http://www.splitbrain.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-16 02:30:42 I did not suggest anything in that direction because that was covered already in the article and the other comments. I'm an Open Source software author my self, and no I can't live off it. You're right about that we should find a way to find a business model that works for open source authors. But closing the source is for sure not the way to go (well at least for me). **[Living Off Open Source « CodeCorps](http://codecorps.wordpress.com/2007/04/16/living-off-open-source/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-16 02:37:07 \[...\] Posted by codecorps under Open Source I originally replied to Chris Messina’s post on The relative value of open source to open services via a comment on his posting. My follow-up was getting long enough that I figured I’m better \[...\] **[Colin Charles Web Log » Blog Archive » Is open source the bubble 2.0 waiting to happen?](http://www.bytebot.net/blog/archives/2007/04/16/is-open-source-the-bubble-20-waiting-to-happen?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-16 04:32:04 \[...\] of interest, Chris Messina has blogged about The relative value of open source to open services, in where he analysis activeCollab. This software is the open source Basecamp equivalent, with a \[...\] **[monkinetic | Blog Archive » The Relative Value of Open Source to Open Services](http://redmonk.net/archives/2007/04/20/the-relative-value-of-open-source-to-open-services/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-20 05:09:36 \[...\] Messina posted an exploration of the whole open source v. open services conversation. I’m going to respond here in the near future, but wanted to point to it while it’s \[...\] **[Shoob » Blog Archive » links for 2007-04-21](http://www.shoob.com/index.php/2007/04/21/links-for-2007-04-21/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-21 08:18:16 \[...\] The relative value of open source to open services Chris Messina revient sur la communautÊ ActiveCollab, un clône php de Basecamp, dont le fondateur vient de changer ses plans. D’un modèle open-source tÊlÊchargeable, il passe à un modèle fermÊ: ce qui fait des vagues dans la communautÊ ActiveColl (tags: opensource activecollab marketing community) \[...\] **[Jeremy Clarke](http://simianuprising.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-29 08:52:55 I think it's important to note that Illija never let anyone actually submit patches and no one else ever had commit privileges. He seemed to always present patches in a way that made it seem like he'd changed them before committing. There wasnt' a lack of interest or community, he just didnt' let anyone do the work they were asking him to let them do. Really, this was just a community driven closed-source application (except insofar as it's a script and thus user-viewable) from the beginning, and Illija just made it official after. The problem is that it did and still does say "open source" on the front page, which is why it got so popular and HAD that community (Dreamhost started offering it among it's 1-click open-source installs, which is an example of a serious advertising benefit derived from aC's open source status). I think it's also important to note , on the subject of potential forks, that Illija literally said that he was dissatisfied with the project as it was headed (up to the 0.7.x mark) and was re-rewriting a lot of it to have a better plugin api etc for the 1.0 release, which would be the next one. Thus, by closing the source at 0.7.x and leaving only the old version under HPL he effectively says "yeah, sure, fork, but it already sucks and you'll just be cleaning up my mess again". A lot of people feel that this is a bit of a cop out because they've been submitting bugs and working with him to improve the sketchy pre .7.x versions only to have the actual fruit be unnavailable to them without a license. Also, is it just me, or is aC really slow? I actually hope that someone just rewrites the whole thing but better. **Jonas** ¡ 2007-05-02 14:44:46 Good article Chris. As Jason stated, Ilija should take his commercialization to a project called "ClosedCollab", not closing the gates ActiveCollab could and would open. Ilija is trying to seize easy money. Matt (Photo) did not. The projects are quite similar and both have a potentially large user base. Buuuut, I am guessing Matt will be the one diving in the Money Bin. **[Roland](http://www.projectpier.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-06-30 11:36:34 Hi Chris, what a nice article and interesting comments. I just want to let you know that there is another fork of activeCollab 0.71 called ProjectPier. I am one of currently 5 people working on that. Right now we are collecting all 0.71 themes and translations and rebrand aC 0.71 to PP to PP 0.8 which will be our first version. Additionally we are working on a Drupal based website at http://drupal.projectpier.org to replace the (ugly) existing website at pp.org. In the next version we like to enhance the tool and simplify it on it’s rough edges :-) If you like to join, please contact us through the Drupal web site. You will be very welcome. Cheers Roland **[James Urquhart](http://www.cuppadev.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-08-21 00:57:23 I also forked ActiveCollab into [RailsCollab](http://rubyforge.org/projects/railscollab/?ref=chrismessina.me). In a way i can sympathise with Ilija, as it took me quite a while to port everything across to Ruby on Rails. However i still think he greatly mis-represented ActiveCollab by claiming it was going to always be free. **[451 CAOS Theory » 451 CAOS Links - 2007.04.16](http://blogs.the451group.com/opensource/2007/04/16/451-caos-links-20070416/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-05-07 11:27:27 \[...\] The relative value of open source to open services, FactoryCity, Chris Messina (Blog) \[...\] ### Pukka 1.5 adds support for Ma.gnolia URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/pukka-15-adds-support-for-magnolia/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:50.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photo.gne?id=459313287&ref=chrismessina.me)[Pukka](http://codesorcery.net/pukka/?ref=chrismessina.me), a favorite tool of the Delicious crowd, has [added support for Ma.gnolia](http://codesorcery.net/2007/04/13/pukka-15-who-says-nothing-good-happens-on-friday-the-13th/?ref=chrismessina.me) with its [1.5 release](http://osx.iusethis.com/app/versions/550?ref=chrismessina.me). Thanks to [Ma.gnolia's Mirrord API](http://wiki.ma.gnolia.com/Mirrord%5FAPI?ref=chrismessina.me) (which mirrors the Delicious API), a number of formerly Delicious-only [applications can also be used with Ma.gnolia](http://wiki.ma.gnolia.com/Other%5FApplications?ref=chrismessina.me#Mac%5FOS%5FX%5FApplications). Pukka now ranks among them, though not with out a few discrepancies, notably no support for spaces in tags or ratings, but these are minor issues that can be worked out over time (note, to enable private bookmarks, [check this out](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/459316857/?ref=chrismessina.me)). What's interesting about apps adding cross-domain API support is the slow emergence of standards in new areas (i.e. outside the standard protocols). A framework for application developers that handles multiple bookmarking APIs that essentially do the same thing would be of great value, similar to the work that Jacob Jay started with his [MediaSock](http://mediasock.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) framework (for publishing to over a dozen media services). I could see such a framework being really useful in browsers, feed readers, media players and similar applications. Anyone? --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Chris](http://chris.comitar.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-14 19:55:57 Just as I was upgrading Pukka, this post came through Google Reader! Gotta love the interwebs. Standardized API formats need to become more common. The discrepancies between APIs will lead to a lot of programming that could be easily avoided simply by swapping a URL (in my opinion - and I'm a designer, not a programmer). Ma.gnolia has the right idea, I'd love to see this become more commonplace. **[Jacob](http://jjay.verse.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-18 22:44:27 The trouble with 'API mirroring' is that the API of the service that gets mirrored was probably designed exclusively to support its own functionality and therefore was not designed in an abstract way suitable for adoption by varied other services. Sure it's great that services are embracing common interoperability, but where's it going… Also I hate to harp on (probably said it before ;) but common APIs are useless without simple endpoint URLs that users can enter easily--or a discovery mechanism as in the MediaSock Service API (not to be confused with the Client Framework which abstracts the different service providers)… **[Justin Miller](http://codesorcery.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-01 05:39:16 I think it would be great if sites could have an endpoint URL similar to how proxy servers offer a single URL from which to gain all of the configuration settings for clients. I've found that with Pukka, sure, I let the API URL be changed, but I also now have a bookmarks URL to open your bookmarks (which differs between del.icio.us and Ma.gnolia), a registration URL, etc. Having those be available from one place would be really useful. ### NASA 2.0 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/nasa-20/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:49.000Z [](http://worldspaceparty.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)If you haven't been wondering what's up with NASA lately, you're probably not alone. Though once a bastion for the advancement of humankind, in recent years the space agency has seemingly vanished into a well of bureaucracy and lack of coherent, public-supported vision. Now, thanks to a number of young, forward-thinking upstarts within the organization, that might all start to change, [starting tomorrow night](http://upcoming.org/event/151629/?ref=chrismessina.me) at NASA's Ames Research Facility in [Mountain View, California](http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/home/directions.html?ref=chrismessina.me) with the kick off of the [World Space Party](http://worldspaceparty.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) (aka [Yuri's Night](http://www.yurisnight.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)). With 4,000 expected attendees, this is probably one of the first if not largest raves ever held on government property (you can only imagine the red tape that they had to go through to get this approved!). The [space is perfectly suited](http://worldspaceparty.com/media%5Fvid2.php?ref=chrismessina.me) for this kind of thing -- and represents the new thinking and outward focus surging within the organization. On top of that, there is growing interest in [open source](http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2007/04/cosmoscode%5F0409?ref=chrismessina.me) (notable given the restrictiveness of the [NASA Open Source Agreement](http://opensource.arc.nasa.gov/license.jsp?ref=chrismessina.me)), in [Second Life](http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/10/2115228&ref=chrismessina.me), and in [coworking](http://coworking.info/?ref=chrismessina.me), as witnessed by NASA's tenant status at [Citizen Space](http://citizenspace.us/?ref=chrismessina.me) and in their [CoLab project](http://colab.arc.nasa.gov/?ref=chrismessina.me). I'm certainly excited to see these changes coming to NASA -- and if it's any indicator of what changes might be wrought in the government with the addition of a little 2.0 fever and open source, there's hope for us yet.[Matt](http://photomatt.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) points out that [NASA is now using WordPress](http://photomatt.net/2007/04/13/nasa-on-wordpress/?ref=chrismessina.me) on their [newly released blog](http://center.arc.nasa.gov/?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Frank Hecker](http://hecker.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-16 22:45:43 Thanks for pointing me to this event, which I otherwise would have missed. Not that I could actually attend it, mind you, but it did provide the inspiration for some serious [space activism nostalgia](http://hecker.org/misc/yuris-night-deja-vu?ref=chrismessina.me) on my part. ### Open web service architecture URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/open-web-service-architecture/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:06.000Z The next step in application development will be in more closely coupling those pieces built loosely joined. Instead of cpan dependencies or libraries needing to be loaded, the prereqs for running an app with be an Upcoming account and a Flickr API key. This is the writing of the command line web. ### Coworking survey and vote on the Net Squared Innovation Fund URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/coworking-survey-and-vote-on-the-net-squared-innovation-fund/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:07.000Z I don't normally cross-post, but seeing as how my blogs are starting to converge a bit, I don't mind throwing this one in there... First, Tara's been [collecting survey data on coworking trends](http://blog.coworking.info/2007/04/08/please-fill-out-our-coworking-survey/?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- as well as what common experiences, expectations and desires are. We've received about 50 responses so far and would love to have more -- especially from the [LifeHacker](http://lifehacker.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [WebWorkerDaily](http://webworkerdaily.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) communities. If you're interested, come [fill out the survey](http://citizenagency.questionform.com/public/coworking?ref=chrismessina.me), shouldn't take more than a few minutes, and we'll be sharing the data with everyone at the end. [](http://www.netsquared.org/projects/vote?ref=chrismessina.me)Second, I just blogged over on [Citizen Agency](http://citizenagency.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) about [getting your vote out](http://citizenagency.com/blog/2007/04/09/make-your-vote-count-in-the-n2y2-innovation-awards/?ref=chrismessina.me) for the [Net Squared Innovation Fund](http://www.netsquared.org/2007/partner/netsquared-technology-innovation-fund?ref=chrismessina.me). We're donating a good chunk of consulting time to the effort to help equip non-profits with the skills, technology and "2.0 know-how" that they need to stay competitive and be even more effective in their advocacy using modern tools. I invite you to [read through](http://www.netsquared.org/sites/netsquared.org/files/N2Y2%5FVoter%5FBooklet.pdf?ref=chrismessina.me) and familiarize yourself with the slate of [proposals](http://www.netsquared.org/projects/proposals?ref=chrismessina.me) that are all in the running for a chunk of the $100,000 that's been set aside specifically for 20 community-selected projects and then [**go vote**](http://www.netsquared.org/projects/vote?ref=chrismessina.me)! Oh, and if you're in the area tomorrow night, we're hosting Gina Bianchini, the co-founder and CEO of [Ning](http://www.ning.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) and Benjamin Rattray the CEO of [Change.org](http://change.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) at [Net Tuesday](http://upcoming.org/event/167771/?ref=chrismessina.me) on the topic of "How Nonprofits Can Use and Build Online Social Networks: Change.org and Ning at Net Tuesday", starting at 6pm at [Citizen Space](http://citizenspace.us/?ref=chrismessina.me). Should be an excellent event. ### Vertigo offers up classic first issues for free download URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/vertigo-offers-up-classic-first-issues-for-free-download/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:08.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/449813620/?ref=chrismessina.me)I've been getting back into comics lately thanks to James Sime over at [Isotope Comics](http://isotopecomics.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) in Hayes Valley (who, by the way, is going to be speaking at the upcoming [Web2Open](http://socialtext.net/web2open?ref=chrismessina.me)). Presently, I'm really digging [New Universal](http://www.marvel.com/news/all.676?ref=chrismessina.me), [Elephantmen](http://www.hipflask.com/elephantmen/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Eternals ](http://www.marvel.com/comics/Eternals?ref=chrismessina.me)and [Planetary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary%5F%28comics%29?ref=chrismessina.me), so when James told me about the [Vertigo classic first issue downloads](http://www.dccomics.com/news/?nw=6186&ref=chrismessina.me), I had to go check'em out. Notable from the list are [The Invisibles: Say You Want a Revolution](http://www.dccomics.com/redirect/?1680&ref=chrismessina.me), [Death: the High Cost of Living](http://www.dccomics.com/redirect/?1601&ref=chrismessina.me), [Transmetropolitan Vol. 1: Back on the Street](http://www.dccomics.com/redirect/?1719&ref=chrismessina.me), [Preacher Vol 1: Gone to Texas](http://www.dccomics.com/redirect/?1645&ref=chrismessina.me), though the whole list is really quite good. I also checked out some desktop comic viewers -- basically alternatives to Preview (on the Mac). I like [SimpleComic](http://www.dancingtortoise.com/simplecomic/?ref=chrismessina.me) (pictured above and free and open source) but [ComicBookLover](http://www.bitcartel.com/comicbooklover/?ref=chrismessina.me) is also worth a look (though pricier at $24.95). Though the idea of reading comics on the desktop is appealing, like most physical media trying to go digital, I agree with James that something is definitely lost in the translation. Still, think of these downloads as the equivalent of 30-second iTunes previews and then go patronize your local comic store! ### Microformats: Empowering Your Markup for Web 2.0 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/microformats-empowering-your-markup-for-web-20/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:49.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/447699110/?ref=chrismessina.me)[](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590598148/factorycity-20?ref=chrismessina.me)I received a copy of [John Allsopp's](http://microformatique.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [new book](http://microformatique.com/book/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Microformats: Empowering Your Markup for Web 2.0](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590598148/factorycity-20?ref=chrismessina.me) in the mail today. My first impression is certainly positive and I think that John has made a very valuable contribution to the community and to our efforts to get microformats out there on the open web. We now have a solid resource that describes the [community](http://microformats.org/discuss?ref=chrismessina.me), the [process](http://microformats.org/wiki/process?ref=chrismessina.me), a [number of microformats](http://microformats.org/wiki/Main%5FPage?ref=chrismessina.me#Specifications) and how they're being used today and profiles a number of organizations that are making good use of microformats already (sadly he missed Ma.gnolia in the bunch, but there's always second printings!). This book is ideal for web developers looking for a handy reference on the existing formats, for web designers wondering about how to make use of microformats in their code and how to apply CSS effectively using their semantics and finally, there's even probably a trick or two that folks familiar with microformats might learn in its nearly 350 pages. So, go [buy yourself a copy](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590598148/factorycity-20?ref=chrismessina.me) and let me (and [John](http://www.microformatique.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) know what you think! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[John Allsopp](http://microformatique.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-05 19:13:43 Thanks for the reference Chris, I'll definitely have to get onto what Magnolia are doing with Microformats for the second edition (and [microformatique](http://microformatique.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)) ### An early look at Comic Life 2.0 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/an-early-look-at-comic-life-20/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:48.000Z [Cris Pearson](http://atariboy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [twittered](http://twitter.com/atariboy/statuses/17206271?ref=chrismessina.me) that he'd uploaded [some](http://www.flickr.com/photos/atariboy/442429707/?ref=chrismessina.me) [shots](http://www.flickr.com/photos/atariboy/442432242/?ref=chrismessina.me) of the new [Comic Life](http://plasq.com/comiclife/?ref=chrismessina.me) 2.0 welcome page. Take a look and let him know what you think. For more, join the [UI Review group](http://www.flickr.com/groups/uireview/pool/?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Julian On Software » Cool thing! Make comics from your photos easily](http://www.julianonsoftware.com/?p=1905&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-02 12:00:37 \[...\] see some designs for Version 2.0 blogged by Chris Messina. 0 \[...\] **[Cris Pearson](http://atariboy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-11 11:34:51 Oh, I didn't say Comic Life 2.0\. It was more a test of welcome screens in general. The final UI (1.x or 2.0) will unlikely look anything like it. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-11 12:16:05 Oh yeah... whoops... guess I just **ass** *u* **me**d! ### Create. Share. Connect. URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/create-share-connect/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:08.000Z [](http://blip.tv/file/get/Jen-Network2Competition384.mov?ref=chrismessina.me)[Awesome video](http://www.ebbandflow.tv/blog/index.php/2007/03/10/metavlog/?ref=chrismessina.me) by [Kent Bye](http://www.ebbandflow.tv/?ref=chrismessina.me); discovered on [Cris Pearson](http://atariboy.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)'s blog. ### The Mozilla Manifesto and the open web URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-mozilla-manifesto-and-the-open-web/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:09.000Z The [Mozilla Manifesto](http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2007/02/the%5Fmozilla%5Fmanifesto%5Fintroduc.html?ref=chrismessina.me) is significant because, on the one hand, it plants firmly in the ground a commitment to various principles and ideals and on the other, it offers language in support of the continued production of the **open web**. Some within Mozilla fear that with the advancement of technologies like [WPF/E](http://msdn.microsoft.com/wpfe/?ref=chrismessina.me) and [Apollo](http://www.adobe.com/go/apollo?ref=chrismessina.me), the business world is regressing towards more crystallization, more [identity silos](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/10/17/dodgeball-goes-gauth-reveals-googs-masterplan-to-p0wn-your-ass/?ref=chrismessina.me) and more closed doors. Thus the key aspects of the manifesto in this respect are: "effectiveness of the Internet as a public resource depends upon interoperability (protocols, data formats, content), innovation and decentralized participation worldwide." and "Magnifying the public benefit aspects of the Internet is an important goal, worthy of time, attention and commitment." ### Problems with OpenID on Highrise URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/problems-with-openid-on-highrise/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:47.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photo.gne?id=431097161&ref=chrismessina.me)Turns out that 37 Signals' implementation of OpenID could use some... *getting real*. Let me go over these issues and provide either resources or remedies. ### Normalization of OpenIDs URLs Look at these three URLs and make a note to yourself about any differences you see: - factoryjoe.com - http://www.factoryjoe.com - http://factoryjoe.com - http://factoryjoe.com/ To a lay person (or even your average geek), these URLs all represent the same thing -- especially if you type any of them into the address bar, they'll land you on my out-of-date [homepage](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). But, in the land of OpenID and URI evaluation, these [differences](http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2%5F0-11.html?ref=chrismessina.me#normalization%5Fexample) can be [very significant](http://openid.net/pipermail/general/2007-March/002010.html?ref=chrismessina.me), especially when you get into the differences between OpenID v1.1 and the forthcoming v2.0 (which adds support for inames). To the [contrary of some discussion](http://openid.net/pipermail/general/2007-March/002025.html?ref=chrismessina.me) on the OpenID list, the way in which you [normalize](http://rfc.net/rfc3986.html?ref=chrismessina.me#s6.) an identity URL very quickly becomes a usability issue if [the cause of OpenID login failures are not immediately obvious](http://forum.highrisehq.com/forums/3/topics/14?ref=chrismessina.me). **Remedy:** Given some of the issues folks have had with OpenID at Highrise, DHH decided to [make usability the priority](http://forum.highrisehq.com/forums/3/topics/14?ref=chrismessina.me#posts-130): > I’m going to fix the trailing slash issue on URL-based OpenIDs. We’ll be more liberal in what we take. This should mean that folks logging in with OpenID shouldn't have to guess at what their appropriate identity URL looks like, instead only substantively know what the important parts are (i.e. the domain and any sub-domain or path(s)). **Outstanding issues:** Of course, 37 Signals can do this, but what happens when the identity URL that someone uses on Highrise doesn't work elsewhere because other consumers aren't as liberal with what they accept? ### Lack of support for i-names One of the issues (features?) that [OpenID v2.0](http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2%5F0-11.html?ref=chrismessina.me) brings is the support for [i-names](http://www.inames.net/?ref=chrismessina.me), a controversial schema for representing people, businesses and groups using [non-familiar formatting codes](http://www.inames.net/i-name%5Fformats.html?ref=chrismessina.me). I've heard that there's somewhere in the ballpark of 20,000 i-names users in the wild (I happen to have =chris.messina but never use it), but compared with the over 70 million (and growing) URL-based OpenID users, this is an incredibly small minority of the overall OpenID landscape. Nevertheless, one potential point of frustration for these users is in the lack of standardization in implementing or indicating support for i-names, as [Rod Begbie](http://groovymother.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [pointed out](http://forum.highrisehq.com/forums/3/topics/14?ref=chrismessina.me#posts-117) in the Highrise forum, to which [replied](http://forum.highrisehq.com/forums/3/topics/14?ref=chrismessina.me#posts-130), . We don’t support iname OpenIDs for now, though. We’re just supporting OpenID 1.1\. And this, I imagine, is going to be a common issue, for both OpenID implementors (dealing with support requests for support of i-names) and for i-names users, such that I question, as others have, the wisdom of offering support for i-names identifiers, when issues still clearly remain in the usability of basic URLs. **Remedy:** Once the OpenID v2.0 spec has been finalized, there will need to be a new logo to indicate which version of OpenID a consuming site supports; this will hopefully work to set expectations for i-names users. **Outstanding issues:** At the same time, the addition of i-names to OpenID v2.0 has [caused a lot of concern for folks](http://openid.net/pipermail/general/2007-February/001621.html?ref=chrismessina.me), many of whom have simply decided to stick with v1.1\. Personally, I don't see the long term value in fragmenting the OpenID protocol away from more familiar URL-based identifiers. I want something simple, straightforward and obvious. Otherwise, v2.0 is going to be a headache to advocate, to implement and to support that a lot of folks with just stick with v1.1. ### Double delegation aka the Sean Coon Problem My buddy Sean Coon pinged me the other day to see if I could help him debug the problems he was having signing into Highrise with his OpenID account. When he had signed up, he had used seancoon.org as his OpenID URL. He'd started playing with it, but then left it, only to return later, unable to login. His problem was three-fold, but I'll first address a basic issue with delegation that some folks might not be familiar with. As it turned out, Sean had delegated `seancoon.org` to resolve to ClaimID as his identity provider. The problem was that he used `http://claimid.com/spcoon` as his identity URL instead of `http://openid.claimid.com/spcoon`, which is [where his OpenID was actually stored](http://claimid.com/openid?ref=chrismessina.me#delegate). Typically when people use `claimid.com/[username]` as their OpenID identity URL to login to sites, this transformation takes place invisibly. This is because [ClaimID delegates to themselves](http://forum.highrisehq.com/forums/3/topics/73?ref=chrismessina.me#posts-376). The problem lies in that Sean delegated seancoon.org to his ClaimID profile, which *in turn* was delegated to ClaimID's OpenID server. If this sounds confusing, it is, and that's why it's not allowed in OpenID. As I understand it, delegation can only be done once, or else you might end up in an infinite chain of delegations that may end in some grandious infinite loop. By restricting your delegation hops to one, a lot of problems are avoided. **Remedy:** In this case, Sean only needs to re-delegate to `openid.claimid.com/spcoon`, and fortunately, there's a [handy WordPress plugin](http://willnorris.com/projects/wp-yadis/?ref=chrismessina.me) that can handle this for him. **Outstanding issues:** Delegation is probably one of the [coolest aspects of OpenID](http://www.windley.com/archives/2007/02/using%5Fopenid%5Fdelegation.shtml?ref=chrismessina.me), since it allows you to use any URL of your choosing as your OpenID and then let someone else deal with the harder part of actually talking to all your services. Furthermore, you can delegate any number of services and set up fallbacks in case your primary identity provider is taking a nap. Communicating how this works and how to resolve and communicate errors when things go wrong is one of the biggest holes in the OpenID offering, and with user experience experts like 37 Signals joining up, I hope that these issues get the amount of due diligence and attention that they deserve. ### Untested assumptions Finally, I discovered a serious mistaken assumption in the [Highrise sign-up process](http://www.highrisehq.com/signup?ref=chrismessina.me). To test out this issue, I created a test account, using `http://google.com` as my OpenID: [](http://www.flickr.com/photo.gne?id=432795489&ref=chrismessina.me)Now, here's the problem: they didn't force me to login to that OpenID when I signed up; instead they just **assumed** that I knew what I was doing and that I was using a valid OpenID. So here's the email that I got confirming my account. Note my username: [](http://www.flickr.com/photo.gne?id=431151013&ref=chrismessina.me)Of course when I go to login, I can't, and I'm locked out of my account -- since I can't login and prove that I own google.com -- which, notably, is the same result as if I'd mistyped my OpenID. Fortunately, 37 Signals [gave me a backdoor](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/431097161/?ref=chrismessina.me), but it kind of defeats the whole purpose of using OpenID and suggests that you shouldn't let folks arbitrary set their OpenIDs without having them prove that they really have control of their stated identifier. **Remedy:** For implementors, you **must** get proof that someone controls or owns an OpenID if you're going to rely on it as their primary identifier. You can't assume that they've typed it correctly or even that they've even used a proper OpenID. And, most importantly, you've got to stress test such a new system to make sure issues like this are avoided. Oh, and it does appear that MyOpenID.com OpenIDs are totally not working at this time; I've put Scott Kveton and Jason Fried in touch, so hopefully they can resolve the matter. Interestingly, if you've delegated to more than one identity provider and you're using your own OpenID URL to login to Highrise, you should be able to get in. ### Conclusion It's still promising to see folks like 37 Signals [get on board with OpenID](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/03/19/37-signals-new-app-highrise-launches/?ref=chrismessina.me), but we clearly have a long way to go. I hope I've clarified a few of the current issues that people might be seeing, or that are generally confusing about OpenID, and I admit that while I'm trying to clarify these things, a lot of this will still sound like Greek to most folks. Given that, if you're having issues getting OpenID, feel free to [drop me a note](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/drop-me-a-note/?ref=chrismessina.me) and I'll see if I can't help resolve it. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[TerrellRussell](http://terrellrussell.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-24 14:20:04 Excellent digging, Chris. Congratulations on your aquiring the google domain - it's got potential and I think they're really going places. Yes, the entire point of allowing someone to use OpenID is that they prove it's their own - with math and redirects - with actual authentication at the provider. And as for the limiting of the delegation to a single lookup - again, you're correct. It's because allowing multi-hop lookup would be very very hard to debug - and besides, whatever you can do with two hops, you can do with one (masking the real provider domain, protecting yourself from a private firm going under in the future, etc). - Terrell **[Scott Kveton](http://scott.kveton.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-24 17:53:28 I'd just put an offer out from the crew here at [JanRain](http://janrain.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) that we'd be more than willing to help work on debugging these problems. You can contact us at support@myopenid.com. And, I for one, am excited about OpenID support in Highrise ... thanks guys! **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-24 20:24:42 @Scott: DHH says that he's [fixed the MyOpenID issues](http://forum.highrisehq.com/forums/3/topics/73?ref=chrismessina.me#posts-981): > After further debugging, it seems that the MyOpenID problems were related to bad caches that the JanRan library were keeping. I’ve cleared those out and were able to log in with MyOpenID again. We’ll be following up with JanRan to find the root of these problems. And to get it working with xrds delegation. **[Rod Begbie](http://groovymother.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-25 18:49:53 I'm aware the i-names support isn't part of 1.1 -- It's just the first thing I always try when I hear of a new OpenID consumer, just to put them through their paces! **[Highrise, claimID, etc. « Changing Way](http://changingway.wordpress.com/2007/04/04/highrise-claimid-etc/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-04 19:38:58 \[...\] 4th, 2007 Chris Messina reported recently that some Highrise users attempting to use OpenID have hit problems. I’m sorry to \[...\] **NA** ¡ 2007-04-05 09:40:29 What happened to this site?? Come back!! More updating!!! **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-05 21:54:23 @NA -- really? You miss me?! **[jamie martin](http://jamiemart.in/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-06 03:16:37 do you think that 37 signals is a bit overrated? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-08 09:19:09 That depends. I personally really like their work and think that they make excellent products. Their products aren't for everyone, though, and they're very direct about that. Sometimes this comes off as arrogance, but, at the same time, it's hard to argue with their level of success. I guess I worry less about how overrated they are and more about how much competition they have. If someone else wants to compete with them on quality, execution of commitment, I think we'd all be better off, including 37S. So it's not so much as they're overrated, it's just that they set the bar, just as Apple does, for what is considered "good". It's up to someone else to come along and reset those standards. **[Niko Nyman](http://www.nnyman.com/personal/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-08 23:28:37 Another interesting quirk with Highrise and OpenID seems to be that I lose access to my authenticated RSS feed. All my RSS readers expect me to authenticate using a username/password pair, not an openID, effectively blocking me out of the Highrise RSS data. I guess this is true for any site that has authenticated RSS feeds and OpenID logins. **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-09 12:28:42 @Niko... we're working on it... ;) **[Adam On Life » Blog Archive » Problems with OpenID?](http://www.adamfortuna.com/2007/04/19/problems-with-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-18 23:40:12 \[...\] with OpenID? FactoryJoe.com has a great article about Problems with OpenID on Highrise that outlines some of the major issues with how OpenID can be implemented. There are quite a few \[...\] **[All in a days work…](http://billy-girlardo.com/delicious/2007/04/20/links-for-2007-04-21/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-21 03:21:47 \[...\] Problems with OpenID on Highrise at FactoryCity All my RSS readers expect me to authenticate using a username / password pair, not an openID, effectively blocking me out of the Highrise RSS data. I guess this is true for any site that has authenticated RSS feeds and OpenID logins. OpenID Issues… (tags: OpenID) \[...\] **[Roop says » Blog Archive » TallyHoh OpenID](http://danielroop.com/blog/2007/04/22/tallyhoh-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-22 11:12:05 \[...\] He was discussing a post done over at Factory City a site I hadn’t seen before. His article, Problems with OpenID on Highrise by Chris Messina, immediately made me switch into DHH mode. This article discusses issues he takes \[...\] ### Netscape will add support for OpenID URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/netscape-will-add-support-for-openid/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:10.000Z [Alex Rudloff](http://www.alexrudloff.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) from [Emurse](http://emurse.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) just pinged me that [Netscape will formally launch their support for OpenID on Monday](http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/03/23/openid-at-netscape/?ref=chrismessina.me): > One of the most consistent pieces of feedback that we have received thus far is that we should look into allowing people to log in using their AOL accounts that are currently used for Netscape/AOL mail, were once used for the previous My.Netscape site, and are used throughout the AOL network. You sent this feedback, and we have been listening. In conjunction with AOL announcing its role as an OpenID provider, and spurred by the rapid pace by which OpenID is being adopted on the Web, on Monday, March 26th, Netscape will not only support signing in with your current AOL screen name, but also OpenID as a way of accessing Netscape.com and My.Netscape. This comes as no surprise given that Netscape's parent company, [AOL](http://www.aol.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [is an OpenID identity provider](http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer/entries/2007/02/15/aol-and-openid-where-we-are/1406?ref=chrismessina.me) and is [building out places](http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer/entries/2007/03/10/ficlets-launched-with-openid/1416?ref=chrismessina.me) where you can use your AIM screenname to login. Reporting on OpenID implementations lately has become akin to reporting that companies have discovered and are now starting to use HTML... there's still a long way to go, but clearly this is the future foundation of identity-based services. ### What news feels like URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/what-news-feels-like/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:46.000Z [](http://www.theonion.com/content/news/bush%5Fannounces%5Firaq%5Fexit%5Fstrategy?ref=chrismessina.me)I was walking down the street today when I glanced sidelong at a newspaper box and caught the words "Bush Announces Iraq Exit Strategy". A fleeting moment of relief came over me and I thought to myself, "Finally." But sometimes we believe into existence that which we want to see. And sometimes that belief, though powerful, proves false. Upon further investigation I suffered the let-down of all time: just like always, the Onion was not reporting real news, but merely made up fantasies that were [too good to be true](http://www.theonion.com/content/news/bush%5Fannounces%5Firaq%5Fexit%5Fstrategy?ref=chrismessina.me). What's interesting about this has nothing to do with The Onion, though. Instead it has to do with the medium and with the message. For one thing, the fact that what I thought I saw was in newsprint still carried with it a certain kind of psychological weight or trustworthiness... it wasn't like reading Tailrank about some spoofed headline... if it was in print and on the street in one of hundreds of thousands of newsstands around the world, surely there must be some truth to it. Alas, the medium betrayed me. As for the message -- it is revealing to me how sharp the sudden sense of relief was at that the thought that "the war is over". I mean, facing fact, this is the largest war that my generation has ever seen. We've now seen [more soldiers and coalition forces killed](http://www.icasualties.org/oif/?ref=chrismessina.me) than went to my high school. More than ten times that have been injured or wounded. And yet the thing keeps dragging on, to no certain end. Y'know, I've always liked war movies -- especially ones about World War II. If there was ever such a thing, history has recorded this affair as the feel-good war of the century -- where boys were turned into men, women filled the factories and smoking and Coca Cola became icons of the American psyche. The same can nary be said for the current war. And, whatever the reality of earlier wars, this one seems even further away from reality -- even more impossible -- and even less certain about its ultimate goal than the previous black-and-white conflicts. ...which I suppose is why the faux-headline in the Onion caught my attention and gave me a sense of, well, *hope*. Because that's what this war seems to lack -- there is no real villain anymore, no hero, there is no sure outcome, there is no obvious way to end this black hole that's been unleashed. My dad and my grandfather were both enlisted men and if either were involved in active duty today, I'm not sure that I could really understand what they were after. Oh sure, protecting freedom; certainly, saving face after removing Saddam without a plan for winning the peace; planting democracy in the Middle East? Um, okay? Saving the world from terrorism? Making the world a better place? How does making war make things better? ... Y'know -- I live a very privileged life. I'm so grateful to have the things I have: to live in a fantastic city with a [fantastic woman](http://www.horsepigcow.com/?ref=chrismessina.me); I help run an [amazing upstart business](http://citizenagency.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) situated in a [terrific space](http://citizenspace.us/?ref=chrismessina.me) with some [incredible individuals](http://citizenspace.us/citizens?ref=chrismessina.me#coworkers). I work on things that I love and that I'm passionate about. I'm pretty much in touch with my family and I have the most fabulous friends all over the world. So when it comes to this four-year-old war -- with all the good things that *I* have in my life -- I guess I'm just stuck wishing for a headline that indicates something other than that it's just got to keep going for sake of... keeping going. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Ian Muir](http://ian.sundermedia.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-23 06:46:30 This is actually one of those issues that I'm really torn on. On the one hand, I want the troops to come home. On the other hand, I know that we're stuck in a no-win situation. If we leave the troops there, thousands more will likely die and many middle eastern coutries will resent us for having troops there. But, our invasion of Iraq has absolutley destroyed the country's infrastucture. Leaving now would likely result in the current situation for the Iraqi people becoming much worse. Then we're the bad guy for leaving a nation half destroyed and helpless. I think that best solution to get out of Iraq is to actually work with other nations. Distribute the job of rebuilding the infrastucture to the other nations, especially middle eastern countries. Then we can scale back our troops without leaving the country helpless. Unfortunately, this solution would require that the US administration say 2 things that they're unwilling to say. "We were wrong and we need help" **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-23 10:36:24 I agree -- and I'm torn on it. There just doesn't seem to be a great way out of here, but I know that reading a headline (for real) like the one above would start to give me hope... and, in spite of all the issues that it might create, would begin to create the conditions for real change -- instead of continuing to slog on in fear of the things you mentioned. I mean, no matter how many "surges" we go through, I don't see things getting better. If we pull out, it won't get better either. So -- I hate to say it -- but perhaps it's time to remove the US splinter in the Middle East and let the locals begin the healing and recovery process on their own terms. After reading this headline though and feeling what things \*could\* be like, I just don't see how continued US involvement could really makes things better. ### Journler 2.5 is out and worth a look URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/journler-25-is-out-and-worth-a-look/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:45.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/431132350/?ref=chrismessina.me)Last year during MacWorld, a Mac developer by the name of [Philip Dow](http://www.corneredinacircle.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) came to stay with us after he found us on [Can I Crash](http://canicrash.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). It was a rather happenstance occasion, one not lacking in a certain serendipity given that I'd just discovered his application -- a nice little gem called [Journler](http://www.journler.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Well, it's just about a year later and Phil's [come out with a new version](http://www.journler.com/blog/2007/03/22/journler-25-is-released-immediately-available-for-download/?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- that is blazingly fast and does everything the previous version did but *better*. On top of being a really exciting release, Phil has also [developed his own license](http://www.journler.com/blog/2007/03/20/understanding-the-journler-license-v25-podcast/?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- one that will hopefully support his work as an independent Mac software developer. The terms are pretty simple: if you use Journler for personal use, pay whatever you're able; if you use it in a more professional or shared context, you're obligated to pay $24.95\. Phil [explains](http://www.journler.com/blog/2007/03/20/understanding-the-journler-license-v25-podcast/?ref=chrismessina.me): > The basic idea behind changes to the license is fairness. There's none of that thirty days nonsense, annoying reminders, superimposed warnings or greyed out menus. You are not a child. Simultaneously, if you are capable of purchasing the program or donating, do so. With these changes I’m working hard to stay true to my original intentions as the creator of Journler while also ensuring that I can continue working on the program under the conditions I am now. I really respect this approach to development and charging, though I know it's a harder path to take. In any event, if you're looking for a journal, note-taking, GTD, media-collecting, personal-snap-shot-taking, podcasting or blogging tool (yes, it really does all those things), do give [Journler](http://www.journler.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) a look. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Blawg.it » Software “Equo e Solidale”?](http://www.blawg.it/?p=186&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-29 06:10:34 \[...\] FactoryCity This work, unless otherwise expressly stated, is licensed under a Creative Commons \[...\] ### Highrise follows trend with OpenID signups at 9% URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/highrise-follows-trend-with-openid-signups-at-9/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:11.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/430839253/?ref=chrismessina.me)In announcing a number of [welcome changes to their pricing plans](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/332-highrise-early-stats-cases-for-all-the-new-solo-plan-and-more-disk-space?ref=chrismessina.me) on [Highrise](http://www.highrisehq.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [their new CRM tool](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/03/19/37-signals-new-app-highrise-launches/?ref=chrismessina.me), 37 Signals also provides some welcome figures on the uptake of OpenID: > Another interesting stat is that 9% of the people signed up are using OpenID. Lots of early adopters on board! This is more or less consistent with [Ma.gnolia's rate of uptake](http://ma.gnolia.com/blog/2007/01/22/openid-is-taking-off?ref=chrismessina.me): > So far, over 15% of new Ma.gnolia members are seeing the advantage and getting their OpenID when they join Ma.gnolia. Considering how new OpenID is, and that it takes a bit of un-learning of old sign-in habits, we’re really delighted to see this adoption rate. Jason Fried has also [suggested](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/332-highrise-early-stats-cases-for-all-the-new-solo-plan-and-more-disk-space?ref=chrismessina.me#comment%5F9929) that OpenID will be making its way to their other products soon: > We’re still learning about OpenID and OpenID implementations with Highrise. There are still some bugs to work out. Once we feel we’ve really nailed that we’ll look into spreading it across the rest of the product line. As we see more mainstream coverage, like the USA Today [article](http://www.usatoday.com/tech/webguide/internetlife/2007-03-15-openid%5FN.htm?csp=34&ref=chrismessina.me) suggesting that OpenID "cuts down on Web registrations", it's likely that we'll easily [surpass 100 million OpenIDs by the end of the year](http://kveton.com/blog/2007/01/04/2007-openid-predictions/?ref=chrismessina.me) as more and more small businesses reap the benefits of the advance of this technology in how it reduces the greatest barrier to attracting and retaining new customers: *signing up for yet another account!* All in all, good news for OpenID and for 37 Signals customers. ### ClaimID adds social networking URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/claimid-adds-social-networking/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:44.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/429456833/?ref=chrismessina.me)In spite of previous disavowals of having social networking aspirations, identity link aggregator [ClaimID](http://claimid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) has now [added the ability to add other ClaimID members to your profile as contacts](http://blog.claimid.com/2007/03/new-feature-openid-based-contacts/?ref=chrismessina.me). Interestingly, they restrict you to adding friends who have OpenIDs (since every [ClaimID profile URL is an OpenID](http://blog.claimid.com/2006/06/open-registration-now-at-claimid-with-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)) and use the [XFN microformat](http://gmpg.org/xfn?ref=chrismessina.me) [to define your relationship](http://blog.claimid.com/2007/03/contacts-walkthrough/?ref=chrismessina.me). This is a significant decision because, presumably, every OpenID has an owner. As such, adding one of these "verified" OpenID URLs as a contact to *your verified OpenID URL* could represent a higher trust level -- a stronger "claim" as the lingo goes -- than simply using the XFN rel-me attribute to create a "weak" relationship claim. Or so goes [the theory](http://blog.claimid.com/2007/02/new-verified-page-at-claimid/?ref=chrismessina.me). Meanwhile, I've recently been reordering [my Flickr screenshot collections](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/collections/?ref=chrismessina.me) and have [created a set devoted to *adding friends* interfaces](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157594314791795?ref=chrismessina.me). **If you have examples of similar interfaces, leave me a link to the source and I'll get them added!** --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Social Networking Bulletin - » ClaimID adds social networking](http://sociali.zers.net/2007/03/claimid-adds-social-networking/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-21 15:09:51 \[...\] More: Chris Messina \[...\] **[Dan W](http://www.danshub.com/blog/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-21 18:47:05 Check out the facebook interface for adding friends, particularly the "how do you know this person?" screen after you friend request has been confirmed byt the other party. ### 37 Signals' new app Highrise launches URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/37-signals-new-app-highrise-launches/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:43.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/427448103/?ref=chrismessina.me)With [narry a word](http://mashable.com/2007/03/19/highrise/?ref=chrismessina.me) on the 37 Signals' blog [SvN](http://www.37signals.com/svn/?ref=chrismessina.me), the veil has been lifted on their long awaited CRM tool called [Highrise](http://www.highrisehq.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). There are a number of posts that capture some of the many features of Highrise on the SvN blog and are worth a look: - [Preview 1: An introduction to Highrise (the product previously known as Sunrise)](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/265-preview-1-an-introduction-to-highrise-the-product-previously-known-as-sunrise?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Preview 2: Highrise permissions and groups](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/275-preview-2-highrise-permissions-and-groups?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Preview 3: Highrise welcome and workspace tabs](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/291-preview-3-highrise-welcome-and-workspace-tabs?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Preview 4: Adding people to Highrise and dealing with duplicates](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/297-preview-4-adding-people-to-highrise-and-dealing-with-duplicates?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Preview 5: Highrise tasks](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/302-preview-5-highrise-tasks?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Preview 6: Highrise people, companies, and the dashboard](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/315-preview-6-highrise-people-companies-and-the-dashboard?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Preview 7: Highrise plays well with email](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/320-preview-7-highrise-plays-well-with-email?ref=chrismessina.me) - [Preview 8: Highrise Cases](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/324-preview-8-highrise-cases?ref=chrismessina.me) In the meantime, I've collected a [bunch of screenshots](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157600010186790/?ref=chrismessina.me) (nice [catch](http://twitter.com/factoryjoe/statuses/9837571?ref=chrismessina.me) [Allen](http://www.centernetworks.com/37signals-launches-highrise-contact-manager?ref=chrismessina.me)) -- in addition to their [great tour](http://www.highrisehq.com/tour?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- that will give you a sense of what the app is all about. I'm totally [excited](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/07/09/539/?ref=chrismessina.me) about their [adoption of OpenID](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/03/06/37-signals-next-app-highrise-will-support-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me), but I have to admit, their implementation -- especially in the forum -- is a little odd. I love the [auto-adapting interface](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/427524400/?ref=chrismessina.me) for [inputing your OpenID](http://www.loudthinking.com/arc/000606.html?ref=chrismessina.me), but the fact that I can't sign in to the forum with the OpenID that I created my Highrise account with kind of misses the point. And still no sign of microformats either, but [a guy can hope right](http://forum.highrisehq.com/forums/1/topics/21?ref=chrismessina.me)? Anyway, it is exciting to take a look at all the interface greatness in this app -- definitely some fine work. Whether I'll become a paying customer is up in the air, especially as open source solutions like [CiviCRM](http://civicrm.org/?ref=chrismessina.me) exist (though without the interface trappings that make 37 Signals products so attractive). I do like what I see so far, though -- and if I can find a way to fit it into my workflow, I'll likely end up a pretty satisfied user. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Julian](http://blog.julianonsoftware.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-03 05:53:48 Interesting... and I saw by the comments that some were whining about SugarCRM which is a powerful, and free competitor that can be customised. That said, good UE goes deep. **[Brendan](http://staircase3.com/rooftop?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2010-03-26 06:27:45 Great article, we use Highrise all the time. I just wanted to let you know that we just launched an Android app to use with Highrise. Its called Rooftop and is fully featured so you can manage all contacts, cases, deals, tasks etc. You can find more info here: http://staircase3.com/rooftop or just search for 'rooftop' in the android market. Thanks ### Twitter is performance email URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/twitter-is-performance-email/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:43.000Z To all you Twitter-naysayers who don't care what I had for lunch, what the weather is around me, what brilliant insight I just had was and to all the rest: that's fine. I'm not \*performing\* for you. I'm performing for me, and for my friends, and as a result of being so ostentatious, they are ostentatious back which nullifies any traditional sense of egotism. Just as Flickr chose to make uploaded photos \*public by default\*, Twitter does the same for SMS, email and IM and it's \*really\* effing interesting. To me. To my friends. To people who care and who relate. So if you're some automaton and you've forgotten that human connections and communication are fundamental, go back to your cog-in-the-machine day job and let us revel in the freedom of open performance and better living through Twitter. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[adam](http://sunburntkamel.archgfx.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-19 15:56:15 i think that's a lot of the blowback on twitter. people who don't have friends they want to follow. so they follow internet celebrities, and don't find it interesting, because they can't relate. **[paulrozario](http://www.paulrozario.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-05-21 05:39:04 I love twitter. Initially it was difficult finding friends who would follow my tweets, but the more I posted and the more people I followed the more followers I had. I think you get out of it as much as you put in. Twittervision is awesome. There's also twittersearch, too. **[Dan](http://www.freebiesms.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-22 13:37:11 I see a number of website springing up along the guise of social networking, by simply listing content by recency, and making it ever-so-simple to contribute. It acts as it's own filter, since 99% of people are honest, and rubbish content gets buried quickly. Dan www.freebiesms.co.uk ### NetNewsWire 3.0d62 Sneak Peak out URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/netnewswire-30d62-sneak-peak-out/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:12.000Z The last sneak peak release of [Brent Simmon's](http://ranchero.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [NetNewsWire](http://ranchero.com/netnewswire/?ref=chrismessina.me) [was in February](http://ranchero.com/?comments=1&postid=1560&ref=chrismessina.me) \-- and he's kept up his frantic dev pace with 16 intermediate releases between [then](http://ranchero.com/netnewswire/changenotes/netnewswire3.0d46.php?ref=chrismessina.me) and [now](http://ranchero.com/netnewswire/changenotes/netnewswire3.0d62.php?ref=chrismessina.me). Anyway, [take a look](http://ranchero.com/netnewswire/beta.php?ref=chrismessina.me), and give [Nicholas Shanks](http://web.nickshanks.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)' NSTiger theme a try. ### Apollo Alpha is out, the WOW comes later URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/apollo-alpha-is-out-the-wow-comes-later/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:12.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/426419033/?ref=chrismessina.me)There's a [ton of buzz](http://www.techmeme.com/070319/p1?ref=chrismessina.me#a070319p1) being [tossed](http://blogs.zdnet.com/Stewart/?p=314&ref=chrismessina.me) on the [alpha release](http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/200703/031907ApolloLabs.html?ref=chrismessina.me) of Adobe's new [Apollo platform](http://www.adobe.com/go/apollo?ref=chrismessina.me). And reasonably so, as ZDNet blogger [Ryan Stewart](http://blogs.zdnet.com/Stewart/?ref=chrismessina.me) [points out](http://blogs.zdnet.com/Stewart/?p=315&ref=chrismessina.me), in a world of Web 2.0 internet-goodness, this is the desktop rearing its head again in the form powerful RIAs. I'll leave the [coverage](http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/03/18/adobe-apollo-launches-so-go-build-something/?ref=chrismessina.me) to other folks, but in the meantime, I installed the runtime libraries and ran the sample apps included -- grabbing a [bunch of screenshots](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157600008348424/?ref=chrismessina.me) along the way that you should take a look at. I also set up a [Flickr group](http://www.flickr.com/groups/apollo?ref=chrismessina.me) for other screenshots and a [Ma.gnolia group](http://ma.gnolia.com/groups/apollo/?ref=chrismessina.me) for collecting news and other Apollo-related links. I'm particularly excited about Apollo given its advance of the state of web tech... and the best is yet to come (though [Finetune](http://www.finetune.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [gives a taste](http://blog.teknision.com/?p=8&ref=chrismessina.me) of [where we're starting from](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/426424359?ref=chrismessina.me)). At the same time, I'd prefer a slightly lest costly and more open -- but equally intuitive and capable -- solution. [OpenLaszlo](http://www.openlaszlo.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), where [y'at](http://www.openlaszlo.org/ol4faq?ref=chrismessina.me#what4)? ### i use this adds support for OpenID URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/i-use-this-adds-support-for-openid/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:13.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/425802569/?ref=chrismessina.me)I've give credit to [Tara](http://horsepigcow.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) for provoking this one. [*i use this*](http://osx.iusethis.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), one of [my favorite](http://osx.iusethis.com/user/factoryjoe?ref=chrismessina.me) Mac OS X software sites, has [enabled OpenID consumption](http://blog.iusethis.com/iusethis-now-supports-openid-for-authentication/?ref=chrismessina.me) using [miyagawa’s](http://blog.bulknews.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) [OpenID plugin for Catalyst](http://search.cpan.org/~miyagawa/Catalyst-Plugin-Authentication-Credential-OpenID-0.01/lib/Catalyst/Plugin/Authentication/Credential/OpenID.pm?ref=chrismessina.me). Note: I hadn't realized, but despite its Rails-like trappings, *i use this* is actually a Perl app powered by [Catalyst](http://catalyst.perl.org/?ref=chrismessina.me). One issue that was revealed in using the Catalyst library concerned Yadis discovery of delegated OpenIDs. Until I hear from [Marcus](http://osx.iusethis.com/user/marcus/3?ref=chrismessina.me), you'll either need to use your direct OpenID URLs or the traditional meta-tag method of delegation until support for Yadis is baked into the library. ### The primates of Twitter URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/the-primates-of-twitter/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:14.000Z [Henry Halff](http://quiensabe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), [Larry](http://larryhalff.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)'s dad, makes a [very interesting comment](http://www.disambiguity.com/ambient-intimacy/?ref=chrismessina.me#comment%5F12678): > It’s been proposed (sorry that I can’t dig up the reference) that we humans in our earlier days formed bonds amongst ourselves through mutual grooming and that these grooming circles were limited in size to about 50\. It’s also said that, as we evolved, our hands became far too, well, handy, to fritter away in grooming. So, our ancestors came to maintain their social bonds by inventing speech and yammering at each other whilst they were using their hands to make tools, stir pots, change diapers, whatever. It turns out, in fact, (again, sorry I can’t dig up the reference) that our conversations are still dominated by inconsequential blather, what some might call “noise.” This noise, as you point out, is ideally suited to maintaining social bonds. What is interesting about all this is that what with all the twitter posts from mobile phones and keyboards is that we apparently have returned to using our hands to maintain social bonds. Perhaps its because we don’t want to waste our voices on such mundanities. ### VolumeLogic now works with iTunes 7.1 URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/volumelogic-now-works-with-itunes-71/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:42.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/424668924/?ref=chrismessina.me)[VolumeLogic](http://www.volumelogic.com/?ref=chrismessina.me), my favorite iTunes DSP audio enhancement plugin, long [broken on iTunes 7](factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/ 09/14/itunes-7-breaks-volumelogic), [finally works again](http://www.volumelogic.com/index.asp?content=attention&ref=chrismessina.me) with iTunes 7.1 after a long [beta period](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/%2001/12/volumelogic-beta-available/?ref=chrismessina.me). As a [beta tester](http://www.volumelogic.com/beta/?ref=chrismessina.me), I received a coupon code that I thought I'd share, since VolumeLogic is so worth owning. Anyway, to get your $5 off, use **TUNE54U** when [checking out](http://www.volumelogic.com/index.asp?content=store&ref=chrismessina.me). Enjoy! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[scott](http://www.trebinjedanas.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-30 06:24:02 I tested it.Not work for me. ### Alex King releases Twitter Tools beta for WordPress URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/alex-king-releases-twitter-tools-beta-for-wordpress/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:15.000Z Alex King has released a WordPress plugin that links your WordPress blog to your Twitter account, allowing you to pull your "tweets" into your blog or post directly to Twitter from WordPress. Among other features is a sidebar widget for latest tweets and a forthcoming digest mode. [read more](http://alexking.org/blog/2007/03/12/twitter-tools-10b1?ref=chrismessina.me) | [digg story](http://digg.com/software/Alex%5FKing%5Freleases%5FTwitter%5FTools%5Fbeta%5Ffor%5FWordPress?ref=chrismessina.me) ### Going to root URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/going-to-root/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:41.000Z I've decided that, in the interest of the sneaky [unobtrusive mode](http://willnorris.com/2007/02/unobtrusive-wpopenid?ref=chrismessina.me) for the [wpopenid plugin](http://willnorris.com/projects/wpopenid/?ref=chrismessina.me), I'm going to start using simply [factoryjoe.com](http://factoryjoe.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) as my web address instead of [factoryjoe.com/blog](http://factoryjoe.com/blog?ref=chrismessina.me)... this is a pretty big change, but I think it's both time to simplify and get with the delegation I set up of my root. Hmmm. Of course this means I now need to put something more interesting on factoryjoe.com... damn. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Will Norris](http://willnorris.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-09 17:51:38 wow, I'm not sure if I should be touched or concerned that I've effected such a big change in your addressing behavior. glad you like it though. :) ### BarCampAustin, BarCampPlannersSummit and CoworkingMeetup URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/barcampaustin-barcampplannerssummit-and-coworkingmeetup/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:42:16.000Z [](http://barcamp.org/BarCampAustin?ref=chrismessina.me)Hot on the [news](http://www.bmc.com/BMC/News/CDA/hou%5FPressRelease%5Fdetail/0,3519,8573740%5F0%5F75225900,00.html?ref=chrismessina.me) that [BarCampAustin](http://barcamp.org/BarCampAustin?ref=chrismessina.me) co-organizer [Whurley](http://whurley.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) has [joined BMC Software as Chief Evil Genius](http://talk.bmc.com/podcasts/podcast-hurley?ref=chrismessina.me), we're kicking off the start of BarCamp/[Refresh](http://upcoming.org/event/155659/?ref=chrismessina.me)/Dorkbot at [Bourbon Rocks](http://www.google.com/maps?hl=eni&q=bourbon+rocks&near=Austin,+TX&radius=0.0&cid=30266944,-97742778,4862772145321950460&li=lmd&z=14&t=m&ref=chrismessina.me) in Austin alongside the start of [SXSW](http://upcoming.org/event/90305/?ref=chrismessina.me). A couple notes... [BarCampAustin](http://upcoming.org/event/119910/?ref=chrismessina.me) starts started today and continues into tomorrow (yes, this overlaps with the first day of SXSWi). Highlights include [$10 screenprinting of your own custom BarCamp tshirt](http://barcamp.org/BarCampAustin?ref=chrismessina.me#tshirts) and Austin favorite SoulHat will be playing Saturday Night -- along with other surprises throughout. As co-organizer Erica O'Grady says, This is definitely going to be a BarCamp you won't want to miss ;) Now, as for agendas... just want to point out that we'll probably be doing both a session and a coordinating meeting of some kind related to coworking tomorrow. This is [the meeting that we previously discussed](http://groups.google.com/group/coworking/browse%5Fthread/thread/19f04ee21c118809?ref=chrismessina.me) but didn't set a definite time on. I think it'd be best if we planned to take this on tomorrow from 3:30 to 4:30 -- trying hard not to conflict with [too many panels](http://sxsw07.conferenceer.com/panels?ref=chrismessina.me)... so that Tara can join in, since she'll be jetting off to Vegas to perform reconnaissance at [Community Two Point Oh Con](http://upcoming.org/event/126423/?ref=chrismessina.me). Otherwise, the rest of the week is pretty well covered by [Jeremy Keith's](http://adactio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [microformats mashup](http://austin.adactio.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) until we arrive at the [BarCampPlannersSummit](http://barcamp.org/BarCampPlannersSummit?ref=chrismessina.me) on [Thursday](http://upcoming.org/event/154898?ref=chrismessina.me). So, while I'm at it, I want to pimp out Twitter (not like it needs it -- but you can follow what's going on by sending the command [join sxsw](http://twitter.com/blog/2007/03/text-join-sxsw-to-40404.html?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- though unfortunately there's no "unjoin" if you want to tune us all out) and [Conferenceer](http://sxsw07.conferenceer.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- both will prove indispensable tools throughout the week and beyond. ### IconBuffet and Shopify add support for OpenID URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/iconbuffet-and-shopify-add-support-for-openid/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:40.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/415690357/?ref=chrismessina.me)Two more announcements for OpenID adoption -- but this time on the *consuming* side (as opposed to my [originally incorrect report](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/03/06/wordpresscom-adds-support-for-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) about WordPress.com -- for now, they're only serving as an identity provider). The [first is Shopify](http://blog.jadedpixel.com/2007/3/8/openid-support?ref=chrismessina.me), a [great Rails-based custom store application](http://www.shopify.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). As [Alex points out](http://www.dangerouslyawesome.com/2007/03/08/another-openid-adoption/?ref=chrismessina.me), these guys really get it right -- and make it super easy to create compelling marketplaces. And now, it's super easy to [log in with OpenID](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/415690357/?ref=chrismessina.me). [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/415698777/?ref=chrismessina.me)Meanwhile, [IconBuffet](http://www.iconbuffet.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) has gone through a [major overhaul](http://www.iconbuffet.com/people/josh/blogs/welcome-to-the-new-buffet?ref=chrismessina.me), becoming something of a social network for ... *icon enthusiasts*! (*Sweet!*) One of the more existing aspects of the relaunch (at least for me) is their use of OpenID: you can either create a new account with an existing OpenID (say, your WordPress.com blog URL) or you [associate your existing account with an OpenID](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/415701438/?ref=chrismessina.me). Either way, they too've made it really easy to get going with OpenID. I imagine that these won't be the last of the [increasing deployments](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/03/06/37-signals-next-app-highrise-will-support-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) of OpenID in the medium- to long-tail (read: not Google or IBM, but small business community). What's so existing about these recent additions is their proximity to commerce -- and how folks like Shopify could eventually weave a web service that allows you to check out -- entirely by way of logging in to your OpenID provider. If you choose a good OpenID provider, you can start to see how the CardSpace metaphor makes sense -- just like when you go out to eat and depending on whether it's a business meal or a personal expense, you'll use a different credit card to pay. The same thing is true for OpenID -- where you can have as many OpenIDs as you like and you can pick among them for different uses or purposes. It's only a matter of time before I go to check out at IconBuffet, I login with my WordPress.com OpenID and I'm able to use credits that I've purchased on WordPress.com to pay for my icons -- with no need to reach for the credit card, to fill in my address info or any of that ever again! Now, if that doesn't sound exciting, you might want to check your pulse. ;) --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[http://claimid.com/andwat](http://claimid.com/andwat?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-12 22:34:01 If only every site was like IconBuffet... I mean in its use of OpenID. If you have an id from elsewhere, you can use it here, if you want an id, you already have one because you signed up with us. I don't mean that I wish every site was a social network for icon-lovin' folk. **[Thanks Tara and Chris at Technologica](http://tech.nologi.ca/?p=280&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-03 07:24:10 \[...\] post, was a great round up of all the great canadian web 2.0 companies out there and Chris’ mention focused on Shopify’s integration with Open ID. If you havent had a chance to subscribe to \[...\] ### 37 Signals' next app Highrise will support OpenID URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/37-signals-next-app-highrise-will-support-openid/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:39.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/413209147/?ref=chrismessina.me)I got an email today from 37 Signals today about their forthcoming CRM tool called Highrise ([formerly known as Sunrise](http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/265-preview-1-an-introduction-to-highrise-the-product-previously-known-as-sunrise?ref=chrismessina.me)). Curious to see where the project was at, I went and snooped around, trying out some common beta URLs to see if I could get a sneak peak... (naughty naughty) and, finding nothing, it dawned on me that Jason Fried was probably using his standard domain prefix for his account... just as he's [done with the Backpack reviews](http://jf.backpackit.com/pub/872?ref=chrismessina.me). Sure enough, there was a welcome page at `jf.highrisehq.com` but what else did I discover? None other than [a link to "Login with OpenID"](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/413210323/?ref=chrismessina.me). I tried logging in and it went through all the proper steps -- so it does look like this is a functioning feature. So it appears that the [37 Signals](http://www.37signals.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) guys have finally drunk the Koolaid and will be supporting [OpenID](http://openid.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)... I [asked for this awhile ago](http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/07/09/539/?ref=chrismessina.me) but now, with DHH [on the case](http://www.loudthinking.com/arc/000604.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and [writing code](http://agilewebdevelopment.com/plugins/openidauthentication?ref=chrismessina.me), it seems that it's actually going to happen. And I couldn't be more excited about it. Finally, one login for all my Basecamps, Backpacks, Campfires, Tada Lists... and now, Highrise. This is exactly the way it's supposed to work. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Sameer Vasta](http://vasta.myopenid.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-06 20:30:04 Super sneaky of you to find that, but I'm glad you did. I was already looking forward to Highrise with immense anticipation, but now that I know they're supporting OpenID, I'm even more excited. **[http://eric.wahlforss.com/](http://eric.wahlforss.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-06 23:48:53 Nice one! **[http://cdharrison.com/](http://cdharrison.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-07 03:53:48 I've been anxiously awaiting Highrise...This is great news! **[DemoMarks » Blog Archive » Wordpress joins the list of OpenID supporters](http://www.demomarks.com/2007/03/07/wordpress-joins-the-list-of-openid-supporters/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-07 06:29:28 \[...\] Wordpress joins the list of OpenID supporters with their Wordpress.com hosted publishing platform. 37Signals will also offer OpenID in the next application, Highrise. \[...\] **[Todor Stefchov Georgiev](http://boxless.info/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-07 07:09:22 Really wonderful news. I am so excited and expecting the grand opening. **[37signals to Consume OpenIDs « Changing Way](http://changingway.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/37signals-to-consume-openids/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-07 08:12:59 \[...\] shared address book with a few twists from 37signals, will allow login with OpenID. So much is reported by sneaky Chris Messina, and confirmed by HDD of \[...\] **[Effair | Billet | Highrise + OpenID](http://remiprevost.com/weblog/2007/03/07/highrise-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-07 08:16:58 \[...\] en avait parlÊ sur son blogue, c’est maintenant confirmÊ, on peut se connecter à Highrise avec un identifiant \[...\] **[Will Pate](http://www.willpate.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-07 13:01:23 Awesome news, great work 37Signals. Now if only we Google would support OpenID to solve their identity crisis. **[OpenID: Short News Roundup at Not So Relevant](http://www.notsorelevant.com/2007-03-08/openid-short-news-roundup/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-08 14:08:03 \[...\] Chris Messina has discovered that 37 Signals‘ new application Highrise will support OpenID. Great find, Chris. \[...\] **[Shaun Andrews](http://www.shaunandrews.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-09 09:36:48 Nice find! I guess I need to learn about this OpenID stuff, seems to be all the rage lately - maybe we'll have to integrate it into [Tick](http://www.tickspot.com/?ref=chrismessina.me). Oh - whats the deal with the Campfire logo? I see they've changed the login page now to show the Highrise logo... **[nonsmokingarea.com » Blog Archive » roundup for 2007-03-09 … Office / Freebase / iConcertCal / RatePoint / OpenID](http://nonsmokingarea.com/blog/2007/03/09/roundup-for-2007-03-09/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-09 10:12:45 \[...\] 37 Signals is joining the growing number of wellknown sites supporting OpenID with their upcoming CRM-tool Highrise. \[...\] **[ä¸?断壮大的OpenID at WappBlog](http://www.wappblog.com/entry/829.html?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-12 19:27:46 \[...\] 自从上次介ç»?了OpenID是如何工作的之å?Žï¼Œæˆ‘本人对于OpenID也是关注更甚。最近å?‘现，很多æœ?务商开始é?’ç??于OpenID，纷纷表示将在自已的æœ?务中支æŒ?OpenID，有的甚至已开始支æŒ?了。而æ?®æˆ‘所知的，å‰?阵å­?Wordpress.com就表示，将å…?莸Blog用户把他们ä½?于Wordpress.comçš„Blog地å?€ä½œä¸ºOpenID地å?€ï¼Œä½œä¸ºä¸€ä¸ªç»Ÿä¸€çš„网络身份æ ‡è¯†(ä¸?过对于国内用户æ?¥è¯´æ„?义ä¸?ü¤§)。å?¦å¤–，Chris Messina也在å‰?å‡ 日收到了æ?¥è‡ªäºŽ37 Singals的一å°?邮件，邮件中表示37 Singals将在å?³å°†å?‘布的CRM程åº?Highrise中支æŒ?OpenID。 \[...\] ### Wordpress.com adds support for OpenID URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/wordpresscom-adds-support-for-openid/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:39.000Z [](http://faq.wordpress.com/2007/03/06/what-is-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)I think I might have jumped the gun on this one. Ok, I did. It seems that for now, [WordPress.com is only an identity provider](http://kveton.com/blog/2007/03/06/the-march-continues-wordpresscom/?ref=chrismessina.me) and *not* a consumer, meaning that [you can use your WordPress.com blog address as an OpenID](http://wordpress.com/blog/2007/03/06/openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) but you can't yet log into WordPress.com with your OpenID. My bad.In talking to [Matt](http://photomatt.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) last Friday at the [Adaptive Path party](http://upcoming.org/event/149336/?ref=chrismessina.me), I asked him when OpenID was coming to Wordpress.com -- the hosted blogging service -- and he replied "Monday". Well, a day late but hardly a dollar short, [Wordpress.com has added](http://wordpress.com/blog/2007/03/06/openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) bi-directional [support for OpenID](http://faq.wordpress.com/2007/03/06/what-is-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me). What this means is that you can both sign in to WordPress.com using your existing OpenIDs (making WordPress.com a "consumer") as well as use your WordPress.com URL (for example, http://factoryjoe.wordpress.com) as an OpenID elsewhere, making WordPress.com an iDP or "identity provider". The [FAQ entry](http://faq.wordpress.com/2007/03/06/what-is-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me) is pretty descriptive and I'd recommend you take a look at it. WordPress.com now joins a [growing array](http://openiddirectory.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) of service providers offering support for this grassroots-driven authentication protocol. No word on when OpenID will hit core of the [WordPress project](http://wordpress.org/?ref=chrismessina.me), but there are already two [great](http://verselogic.net/projects/wordpress/wordpress-openid-plugin/?ref=chrismessina.me) [efforts](http://willnorris.com/projects/wpopenid/?ref=chrismessina.me) driven first by [Alan Castonguay](http://verselogic.net/?ref=chrismessina.me) and more recently [Will Norris](http://willnorris.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) \-- which point to a positive future between the two open source initiatives. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Scott Kveton](http://scott.kveton.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-06 09:36:55 Is it really bi-directional? I don't see the consumer support information in the FAQ there; I just see provider support. Would love to see consumer support! **[maique](http://maique.wordpress.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-06 10:07:42 cool. i've been waiting for the oportunity to use my wordpresscom login as openid. **[wordpress meets openid « quintal do xanato](http://maique.wordpress.com/2007/03/06/wordpress-meets-openid/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-06 10:21:55 \[...\] \[via factorycity\] \[...\] **[Rod Begbie](http://groovymother.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-06 12:49:34 Yeah, I don't see any way to "log into WordPress.com" using my regular OpenID either. Shame really, since this now means that the Provider:Consumer ratio is even higher. (I personally have more OpenIDs than there are sites I can use them at, I think) **[geek ramblings » WordPress.com supports OpenID](http://dougal.gunters.org/blog/2007/03/06/wordpresscom-supports-openid?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-06 13:37:18 \[...\] Factory City) Share This This entry was written by Dougal and posted on 3/6/2007 at 4:36 pm and filed under \[...\] **[dAniel hAhler](http://daniel.hahler.de/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-06 16:08:46 What's up? OpenIDs now get consumed.. :) **[dAniel hAhler](http://daniel.hahler.de/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-06 16:12:10 OMG. I've mixed websites/tabs. Just ignore/delete my two comments. **[WordPress.com OpenID, the Morning After « Changing Way](http://changingway.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/wordpresscom-openid-the-morning-after/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-07 07:31:33 \[...\] Chris Messina jumps the gun, assuming bidirectional support (i.e. producer and consumer), looks forward to further OpenIDness at WordPress, edits his post to remove the gun-jumping. \[...\] **[Social Media Club - » Social Media Now: Will the Me Generation Go Social?](http://www.socialmediaclub.org/2007/03/07/social-media-now-will-the-me-generation-go-social/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-07 09:54:32 \[...\] of Ning as just the highest profile company to offer bespoke social networking and with the growing adoption of OpenID it feels like we’re moving away from the era of social networking hubs. After all, \[...\] ### Customizing the QuickSilver Cube Interface URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/customizing-the-quicksilver-cube-interface/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:38.000Z [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/410436205/?ref=chrismessina.me)**Update:** 4/14/2007: I've recreated the [NIB file](http://www.factorycity.net/downloads/quicksilver/QSCubeInterface.nib.zip?ref=chrismessina.me) to use the latest version of the Cube Interface source. **Update:** Oops! I wasn't very specific about that `.nib` file. I've updated the instructions to make it more clear now. As for HEX colors in the Color Picker, try the [HexColorPicker](http://www.luckysoftware.dk/hexcolorpicker.php?ref=chrismessina.me). Thanks Frank!There was a [trend](http://tonyarnold.com/articles/2006/07/06/quicksilvers-new-cube-ui-hidden-preferences-ahoy?ref=chrismessina.me) awhile back to [tout](http://blacktree.cocoaforge.com/forums//viewtopic.php?p=19263&ref=chrismessina.me) your [custom QuickSilver interface](http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/07/21/quicksilver-settings-to-pimp-your-cube/?ref=chrismessina.me). At the time I [resisted doing anything hardcore](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/190577067/?ref=chrismessina.me), content to enjoy other people's works. Well, without any QuickSilver updates lately, I finally gave in and copied a style I [found in the forums](http://blacktree.cocoaforge.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19538&ref=chrismessina.me#19538) created by Axlin by following the [instructions provided by Hawk Wings](http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/28/hacking-quicksilvers-cube-interface-for-bigger-icons/?ref=chrismessina.me). To save folks the hassle, I'll make this really easy for you. First, make sure you're running the [latest version](http://getsq.blacktree.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) of QuickSilver (β51). Next, [install the Cube interface](id=com.blacktree.Quicksilver.QSCubeInterfacePlugIn) if you don't have it already. Third, [launch the Cube customization interface](//preferences#QSCubeInterfacePrefPane). Ok, once there, make your settings look like this: [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/410462697/?ref=chrismessina.me)Now, here's where it gets a little dicey. You'll need to first download the replacement [QSCubeInterface.nib](http://www.factorycity.net/downloads/quicksilver/QSCubeInterface.nib.zip?ref=chrismessina.me) from my server. Navigate to `~/Library/Application Support/Quicksilver/Plugins` in the Finder and make a backup of the existing `QSCubeInterface.nib` file in that directory. Now, right click on `QSCubeInterface.nib` and select "Show Package Contents". Drill into `Contents/Resources` and unzip the `QSCubeInterface.nib.zip` file in this directory, overwriting the existing `.nib` (you should have already made a backup). Now, quit and restart QuickSilver and you should be good to go. Lemme know if it works for you and if you come up with any other interesting examples of customization, post them to the [QuickSilver Flickr group](http://www.flickr.com/groups/qs?ref=chrismessina.me). --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Frank 'viperteq' Young](http://7andacrescent.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-04 18:43:46 Chris, this is going to seem like the dumbest question in the world to you, but how in the hell do I enter custom Hexadecimal color codes into the Color preferences window that pops up? Maybe a brief tutorial, or even better a screencast, would be extremely to me in following this tutorial..... **[Frank 'viperteq' Young](http://7andacrescent.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-04 18:55:54 Another quick question: I went to place your .nib file in "\~/Library/Application Support/Quicksilver/Plugins" as directed, but there wasn't any other .nib files in that directory. I placed the .nib inside the directory, quit and then restarted Quicksilver and it still looks exactly the same as the default. Are you sure that "\~/Library/Application Support/Quicksilver/Plugins" is where the .nib file is supposed to go? **[Frank 'viperteq' Young](http://7andacrescent.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-04 19:41:33 Ok, I figured it out. The .nib part I mean. As fas as the colors, I just used the RGB slider and just tried to adjust the slider until I found a color I was comfortable with. Thanks for the .nib file!!!! **[Janice Lo](http://janicelo.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-05 02:17:42 Hey Chris, thanks for the very clear write-up! However, I couldn't find the original QSCubeInterface.nib as described! There is, however a file called Cube Interface.qsplugin - what should I do? **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-06 17:16:21 Hey Janice -- right-click on QSCubeInterface.nib and pick "Show Package Contents". In `Contents/Resources` you should find the file you seek! ;) **[Mackie](http://macintalk.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-07 10:40:30 Frank: http://wafflesoftware.net/hexpicker/ **[Roll Your Own (Quicksilver) Cube · Macintalk](http://macintalk.com/2007/03/07/roll-your-own-quicksilver-cube/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-07 11:52:19 \[...\] Your Own (Quicksilver) Cube After reading this, I decided to have a go at customizing Quicksilver’s Cube interface myself. I’m going to \[...\] **[Customizing the Quicksilver Cube | Fighting to Stay Awake](http://thefightspot.com/2007/03/customizing-the-quicksilver-cube/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-07 22:02:37 \[...\] you use Quicksilver and you like customization then check out these posts here and here. I am going to do \[...\] **donderwolkje** ¡ 2007-03-27 08:59:47 how do you get the cube? mine doesn't look like a cube, it looks ugly, hooooowwwwwwww whyyyyyy? is that an opion (nice gui), or might i be using the OLD version **[Chris Messina](http://factorycity.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-03-28 11:35:57 @donderwolkje: did you follow my instructions? Also, do make sure you have both the latest version of QuickSilver as well as the Cube Interface installed (through the Plug Ins menu). **[Quicksilver: A Comprehensive T.O.C. for Beginners to Pros | Fighting to Stay Awake](http://thefightspot.com/2007/04/quicksilver-toc/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-04-02 04:42:00 \[...\] QS Cube Interface - Via Factory Joe. Instal and customize the cube interface. This is what I use. \[...\] **[Quicksilver: Qual der Wahl. Welches Interface? « MacWork](http://macwork.wordpress.com/2008/06/12/quicksilver-qual-der-wahl-welches-interface/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2008-06-12 00:18:29 \[...\] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/03/04/customizing-the-quicksilver-cube-interface/ \[...\] ### Last.fm for friends! URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/lastfm-for-friends/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:39:37.000Z Was thinking... wouldn't it be kind of interesting if there were an attention aggregator for your friending behavior? I mean, being able to see who you've friended at many social networks and then inferring other folks you might want to meet would be pretty useful -- and as we tend to say -- would *accelerate serendipity*. And this would go beyond simple XFNing someone -- this would actual include identifying and measuring your behavior with and towards each friend over time... for example, do you message them often? Do you recommend links? Who do you always invite or add first? Anyway, I think I'd like to be able to get friend recommendations and make new connections -- kind of like an accelerated LinkedIn... oh well, maybe that's just me. --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[Remington](http://www.goombah.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-28 07:40:45 Serendipity made me think of Goombah.com. It's a download but totally worth it. It matches you with the top 20 people that share your music taste. Also great recommendations and free tracks. They read your mind. **[adam](http://sunburntkamel.archgfx.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-26 23:04:50 i always hoped that share.opml.org would go that way. who do you read often? who do you comment on often? what else have other people tagged open+source?, etc. ### A design pattern for image and figure alignment URL: https://www.chrismessina.me/blog/a-design-pattern-for-image-and-figure-alignment/ Last updated: 2026-03-25T03:31:56.000Z [](http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/403570130/?ref=chrismessina.me)[Dan Cederholm](http://www.simplebits.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) [proposed the idea of a figure microformat some time ago](http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2005/07/10/figures.html?ref=chrismessina.me) and I followed up with [a post the microformats discuss list](http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-October/001762.html?ref=chrismessina.me). I've continued thinking about it and after throwing down with [Tantek](http://tantek.com/?ref=chrismessina.me) over IM, realized that [K2](http://getk2.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)'s presentational approach of using `alignleft`, `alignright` and `center` classnames on images just didn't hold up over time and, as Tantek asserted, was worse than being semanticly neutral. Therefore, I decided and have been [using](http://barcamp.wordpress.com/2007/02/26/unconference-the-book/?ref=chrismessina.me) the following approach to laying out images in my blog posts: .code { border: 1px solid #eee; list-style-type: decimal-leading-zero; padding: 5px; margin: 0; } .code code { display: block; padding: 3px; margin-bottom: 0; } .code li { background: #fff; border: 1px solid #ccc; margin: 0 0 2px 2.2em; } 1. `a img {` 2. `border:0;` 3. `}` 4. `img.figure {` 5. `max-width:460px;` 6. `border:2px solid #f7f7f7;` 7. `}` 8. `img.figure-a {` 9. `margin-left:auto;` 10. `margin-right:auto;` 11. `display:block;` 12. `}` 13. `img.figure-b {` 14. `float:right;` 15. `border:0;` 16. `margin:0 0 6px 6px;` 17. `}` 18. `img.figure-c {` 19. `float:left;` 20. `border:0;` 21. `margin:0 6px 6px 0;` 22. `}` Thus, if you apply the `figure` class to an image on its own line, it can't be larger than a setting of your choosing (i.e. to not overlap columns, at least in Firefox) and will have a nice border outlining it. Adding `figure-a` will center it on the line, `figure-b` will align it to the right and `figure-c` will align it to the left. I chose these names after consulting with Tantek, reading Dan's piece and thinking about the multiple uses these classes might have beyond images (i.e. for formatting tables or graphs). Figures are often cited in textbooks and newspapers and currently don't conflict with any other microformat. I'd like to see the next versions of [Sandbox](http://www.plaintxt.org/themes/sandbox/?ref=chrismessina.me) and K2 support this and deprecate the `alignleft`, `alignright` and `center` image classes in subsequent versions. I'd also like NetNewsWire, Bloglines and other feed readers to support these basic alignment styles. But until then, feel free to use this markup in your own projects and spread the pattern! --- ### 💬 Comments from the original post **[adam](http://archgfx.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-26 15:01:45 i must be thick headed about this semantics stuff. actually, i must just be stupid in general. the whole point of giving the image a class is to move it to one side or the other, but a class name that tells you where the author intended to put the image is anti-semantic? yes, it's presentation. semantic presentation. that's bad? i'm so confused. 'splain me better. a, b, and c seem arbitrary and meaningless. why should they translate to left and right? and why not do ` class="figure a"`, so that your figure and your a are reusable? and why restrict this stuff to images? surely tables, blockquotes, and lists can be figures as well? **[John Allsopp](http://microformatique.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-26 16:07:11 Chris, I recently started a [series of articles](http://microformatique.com/?p=83&ref=chrismessina.me) on the whole issue of semantics in HTML - built in, microformats, design patterns, and more. At present, as far as I am aware, all microfomats fall into one of two categories, Content semantics (they add richer semantics for marking up specific kinds of content, like addresses) or Relational semantics - they formalize a way of capturing the relationships between resources, or the things those resources represent (rel-license in the former case, XFN in the latter). Now, the design pattern you outline here captures a different kind of semantics, I believe - one that I have losely termed Structural - akin to paragraph or heading elements, for example, in HTML. The point of this long winded introduction is to pose the question, do microformats restrict themselves to only content and relational semantcs, or is that simply an accident of current development? Is the microformats project the best place to develop all kinds of semantic extensions to HTML? I don't know the answer, nor have a particular position, but I do think it is an interewsting question - but of course maybe its not ;-) john **Robin** ¡ 2007-02-26 20:28:35 I think .figure-c should be float:left, not float:right. And I've adopted this on my blog :). **[Simon Jobling (aka One Phat DJ) » Blog Archive » Tagged (2007.02.26)](http://www.simonjobling.com/?p=292&ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-27 00:13:38 \[...\] A design pattern for image and figure alignment at FactoryCity A neat idea for losing those “semanticly neutral” image align classes from K2 and replacing it with a more meaningful “figure” class. \[...\] **Tim Swan** ¡ 2007-02-27 07:08:30 Since you're using float on "img.figure-b" and "img.figure-c", don't you need to specify an explicit width for those classes? **[Chris Hunt](http://www.extraconnections.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-27 07:20:50 So let me see if I've got this correctly... We want a microformat which indicates that the given image is a figure, as opposed to some other kind of image, so that (for example) some other application can trawl through and generate a table of figures in your document. So far so good. On top of that, we want to codify whether the image should be floated left, right or centre - presumably so that applications like feed readers display images where you'd like to see them. Now there's an argument to be had as to whether such presentational information should be embedded and/or respected. I don't personally have a problem with it, but for Heaven's sake don't obfuscate the value with -a -b and -c codes just out of "class names shouldn't be presentational" dogma! Class names should reflect what they classify. In this case if we're classifying "the set of figures that should be displayed to the left of a document", "figure-left" (or similar) is just fine. In any case, as Adam points out, we should really be using multiple classes to define those different issues. So class="figure" identifies an element as a figure, class="figure left" further identifies it as needing to be floated left. **[ADDmonkey](http://addmonkey.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-27 07:25:51 And why not just get a template that suits your needs by default? **[http://sunburntkamel.livejournal.com/](http://sunburntkamel.livejournal.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-27 08:21:49 just to take chris hunt's idea of a 'table of figures' further, each figure should probably also have an ID. wordpress could add these pretty easily (i thought it used to), since it's already giving a blog-specific `rel` value (e.g. wp-att-506). **Daniel Luz** ¡ 2007-02-27 08:27:10 Tim, img elements have intrinsic dimensions. (but that assumes the user does load images, I believe) --- I don't know how's the discussion going for this microformat, but please don't forget to cover one of HTML's semantic weaknesses: let us associate a caption to a figure! **[Zeo](http://zeo.unic.net.my/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-27 10:09:15 I wonder where my comment went? +1 for figure-right, figure-left, figure-center. **[Sophie Dennis](http://www.cayenne.co.uk/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-27 12:17:32 The general concept of a 'figure' class is nice - especially the idea that it could be applied to other elements like tables etc... But I'm so with Chris Hunt that the -a, -b, -c notation is really no better than the original 'left', 'right' and 'center' approach. A B C are meaningless. They have no semantics. 'left' and 'right' at least have some meaning, even if it is presentational. Where the decision to float an image left or right is entirely arbitary and purely presentational, you can't cover up the fact that your layout has no semantic basis by picking meaningless classnames. The 'presentational' classnames "left" and "right" are surely the lesser evil here? For the 'figure-a' you could find a more semantic tag than "a". Something like "masthead" or even "block" which arguably tells us something about how the image is being used. I don't actually like either suggestion - perhaps others will have better. Ultimately wouldn't context-based rules would be better and more semantic? Such as images in paragaphs are floated, while those just in a div are not and are centered. These are conventions which feed readers et al could equally deploy without adding extra classnames (though I guess that might mean it wasn't a microformat) **Andrea** ¡ 2007-02-27 13:10:04 While I can appreciate your principles and ideas, I'm not sure I'll be using this idea any time soon. For me, while "align-left" is technically not correct as it describes a changeable state of something- design related, as opposed to content based- it at least makes some sense. On the other hand "figure-a" is doing the same function, but to anyone else trying to understand your mark-up it would have no relevance unless they understood the system you were using, which seems to me to somewhat defeat the objective of semantics. I thought that Semantics was about (as well as being "right" and fashionable ;) ) creating mark-up that is "future proof", will redesign easily and well (hence, not giving ids and classes of "redtext"- thank you Myspace...) and can be understood by anyone who looks at your mark-up (again, thank you Myspace..). Applying this, the figure-a system wouldn't be easy for people to understand who weren't familiar with your system (point 3) and would still do the same function as "align-left", so would require touching the actual XHTML if you wanted to move one element from the left to the right, for instance, thus not really making it any easy for design purposes and the ultimate aim (or so I thought) of having pages that can be completely redesigned without touching the XHTML whatsoever. Perhaps I have misunderstood the concept, because I certainly don't think I made much sense. Personally, however, I think that the align-left system is still the best system we have without grouping single "properly" named elements to align left which, for dynamic content like blogs, is not really feasible. Possibly, if a blog wanted to really be Semantically correct and name all their images with classes that applied to their function and not where they appear or how they look, then wouldn't it be best to have all the images, for instance, within the articles given a class of "article" and all aligned the same, to the left or right according to preferences, and the same principle for other images in sidebars etc.? **[Andrew Dupont](http://andrewdupont.net/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-27 13:33:56 I can understand how `figure-a` is semantically different from `figure-b` and `figure-c` — there's a legitimate case to be made that a "block" figure (one that interrupts the flow of text) is different from a "floated" figure (one that is floated to the side or placed in a margin) in more ways than just presentation. But how are `figure-b` and `figure-c` semantically different from one another? Isn't it enough to indicate it's a "floated" figure without specifying which side it's on? There's no point in pretending to be presentaiton-agnostic when the only difference between `figure-b` and `figure-c` is visual. If you think the distinction between left and right floating is important, then you should name the classes accordingly. If not, then rename `figure-a` to `figure-block`, consolidate the other two into `figure-float`, and let the implementation decide which side to float them on. **[Max Wheeler](http://makenosound.com/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-27 14:13:58 It seems to me that one advantage to this system is that down that track if you wanted to switch the presentation of your floats, i.e switch figure-b to float: left and figure-c to float: right, then you don't get caught out by having presentational names which are then counter-intuitive to their actual presentation. In my mind, that doesn't make them any more semantically correct than figure-left or figure-right, simply more flexible. I guess as you mentioned it's more desirable to be semantically neutral than incorrect/restrictive. **[Jeremy Boggs](http://clioweb.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-27 19:15:39 Nice idea, Chris. Do you think it would be better to give a class of "figure" to style all figures, then give each figure a unique ID value of figure-a, instead of adding another class? It seems to me that the ID attribute is ideal for marking up a specific figure, since that's what the ID attribute is for. Then again, this wouldn't work if you had multiple "figure-a" figures on a page. But I would question whether one would want to do that. In print publications (say, books), there are often lists of figures, but figure-a is never repeated in a book. Using the ID attribute would help ensure the uniqueness of figures. **[John Allsopp](http://microformatique.org/?ref=chrismessina.me)** ¡ 2007-02-27 19:25:17 Chris, I'm interested in what makes something a figure a, figure b and so on? Is it simply a matter of taste as a designer, or is it a function of place in the document (first image is figure-a) or something intrinsic to the image? john **Rob Brackett** ¡ 2007-02-27 20:32:45 I, too, am curious as to what makes something a "figure a", "figure b", and so on. I initially thought these were to be unique (then why not use id?), but when you mentioned deprecating "alignleft", "alignright", and "center", it sounded like they aren't - you might have two images with the "figure a" class because "a" really means center. If all we cared about was the site these images appear on, that seems just fine. You can come back later and change your CSS because you decide you really want your "figure a"s to be on the left. Great. But suggesting that other software should see a "figure a" and know that it should be centered and break the content flow is definitely bad. You're giving permanent, non-transient meaning to the letter "a". The whole point of semantic markup is that the words you use mean what they are or what they mean in actual spoken language. "rel='friend'" means the relationship is that of a friend, "class='vcard'" means the content represents a vcard, "rel='stylesheet'" means that document is a stylesheet for the document you are viewing. "a" meaning "centered" certainly does not fit with that idea. Better to leave it as "center" or "figure-center" or "figure center". However, I question the idea putting this in a site-wide stylesheet at all. Unless we're looking at this from the point of view that we really have certain types of figures and we display each type in a certain way (e.g. "figure-a" means a graph and we want to display graphs centered and have them break the text flow), we've essentially traversed into putting presentational information ("this is a left-aligned figure that does not interrupt the text") into the html. Is that bad? I'm not sure. It's definitely \*technically incorrect,\* but it's also much more convenient. I think the technically correct way would probably be to put the css on the page in a